But the way I was responding to the world, the
way I was responding to people was very much
indicating that I had that belief that like,
oh, you owe me something. I'm here. Maybe it
was some kind of egotistical belief like thinking
I'm better than other people. Maybe it was, I
don't know. I can't tell you the source of it.
I really can't. But I can tell you it was definitely...
How do you coach people through Through like
the betrayal of themselves, you know that or
them falling into victimhood So it's not for
everyone because I don't like to be around bush
like to get straight to the point The first thing
to get someone to that point is to show them
In regards to removing negative emotions from
a relationship, absolutely, it will most certainly
do that. But in regards to removing positive
emotions from a relationship, no. And even more
to the point, it will continue to foster positive
relations long after a relationship, because
now it's nothing about how the other person screwed
you or they've done you wrong or you've done
them wrong. There's no they did this, there's
no us and them, there's no us versus them. What
if the biggest betrayal in your life wasn't done
to you, but by you? What if the red flags you
ignored, the burnout you kept pushing through,
the relationships that fell apart weren't accidents,
but patterns built on one belief that something
outside of you will fix what's broken inside?
Today's guest, Clay Moffitt, ex -Navy weapons
tech, high -performance coach, and author of
The Trust Trap, is here to challenge that belief.
This isn't a soft conversation about trusts.
It's about self -betrayal, emotional intelligence,
and why confidence is a myth. If you ever ignored
your gut, trusted the wrong people, or felt like
you kept letting yourself down, this episode
is your interruption. It won't just make you
feel inspired, it will make you tell the truth.
Hey there. Look, my hope is that the Thravo journey
meets you exactly where you are and helps you
rise into who you're here to be. It's 2025, and
this is your year to thrive, despite what the
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We're walking through a 22 -week series built
to anchor each week in intention, purpose, and
meaningful connection. I do so look forward to
hearing your voice and can't wait to see you
in the group. But for right now, let's get into
it. So Clay, again, man, just I want to say thank
you for being on the podcast. I know you're in
Phuket, Thailand. What time is it there? As a
matter of fact, 5am. Oh my gosh. Okay. So thank
you for being on the podcast. Thanks. Welcome
to the show. Like I said before, man, just the
story that you have the knowledge that you have
to share with the world. I appreciate you and
I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
And again, thank you for being here. I'm very
excited to be having this conversation. It's
an interesting place to be because I did podcasts
many, many years ago, like 2019, 2018. I did
maybe four or five. I was like, oh, this is great.
And then kind of stopped because I didn't really
think I had anything unique to offer. Right.
And that's all changed in the last six, seven
months, which I'm sure we are definitely going
to get into like how, why, et cetera, et cetera.
But just even my approach has changed. So I'm
very protective of my sleep and this would never
have happened before, but I've adjusted my schedule
so that I just go to sleep earlier so that I
wake up and then we're good to go. And there's
some podcasts that I get on at 10 p .m. 11 p
.m. at night because that's like the right time.
So it's always going to be early morning for
me or late evening that I get on podcasts unless
they're in the UK or Australia and then it's
typically early morning for Australia and UK
is typically like very early evening. So I'm
very happy to be here and I appreciate you creating
space for us. Absolutely. So you are you're actually
the of this section of this section of our interviews
and conversations. You're the first person out
of two that we'll be talking to in Thailand.
So I'm actually really excited to have people
from across the across the world. Yeah, to be
on the podcast that we have a conversation with.
And like I said, man, we're about conversations
that really make a difference. And that really
can lead people to enlightenment and understanding
of who they are in the world, what space they're
in. And the question I have for you as we move
forward is, what's something that you used to
believe deeply that kind of forced you to unlearn?
So the surprising thing about that is it's not
something that even you'll ever leak, right?
It came about after having multiple instances
in my life, kind of being shoved into my face
for me to actually recognize that that must have
been a belief. And the belief was very much that
the world owed me something. I don't know how
it came out. I don't know how it came about.
My parents certainly don't have that belief.
In fact, I can... vividly recall many, many,
many times to my parents saying the exact words,
you know, the world owes you nothing. Um, and
just getting hit with that. But the way I was
responding to the world, the way I was responding
to people was very much indicating that I have
that belief that like, Oh, you owe me something.
I'm here. Maybe it was some kind of. egotistical
belief like thinking I'm better than other people
maybe it was I don't know I can't tell you the
source of it I really can't but I can tell you
it was definitely what I would associate with
this sense of victimhood that I carried for a
long time right like oh I'm going to get my outcome
and that outcome is going to be achieved because
These other people owe me something. And you
said you're going to do it, so that means you
owe it to me. Now I'm very big on if I say I'm
going to do something, I'm going to do it. And
I think the trap was I was pushing my rules onto
other people and expecting them to adhere to
my rules and the way that I do things. And that's
a big problem. That's probably another really
big belief that has also kind of collapsed. There's
two in one. So the one was that the world owe
me something and the second was that my rules
should be the rules for everyone else instead
of recognizing that other people most likely
have their own rules and follow those. You know
what, I don't think that you're alone in that
world. I talked to a lot of people that have
that whole notion, you know, that the world owes
them something. And there are probably people
that walk around not really truly admitting that
to themselves, but they live their life like
that. And it's probably more some conscious subconscious
for some people. And sometimes you have to check
yourself. Be like, do I believe this? Sometimes
you can't even really check yourself. Like I
promise you, I didn't check myself. Uh, I got
fracked and continuously. And I was continuously
putting myself in those positions. But because
of that belief in the way it was being framed,
I was always looking outward at why people kept
doing this. The standard question, right? Why
does this keep happening to me? Is the ultimate
victimhood question. Because now you're at the
mercy of something happening to you, not the
fact that you're a part of the process, not the
fact that you're a part of the thing that caused
to resolve. Right. So there's a lot of people
that walk around saying that and repeating that
question to themselves and always say, well,
OK, so if you say that out of all the times that
you've asked yourself that question, have you
ever noticed on one single occasion that something
good can be asking that question? And the answer
is always no, you know. Yeah. And the answer
is always no. Because what happens is the brain
goes, oh, you want the answer. Let me go find
all the answer. And it goes digs up all the crap.
that has gone wrong in your life, just shoves
it front and saying, you're like, right, this
is exactly what I needed. It wasn't what you
needed. What you needed was a different question
and a different way of looking at life. And this
is why in coaching they talk about really good
coaching is about asking really good quality
questions. How do you coach people through, through
like the betrayal of themselves, you know, or
them falling into victimhood? Cool, so it's not
for everyone because I don't like to be around
a bush. I get straight to the point The first
thing to get someone to that point is to show
them Betrayal doesn't exist Not in the form that
people think and that the only kind of betrayal
it does exist itself. And that can be a pill
for a lot of people to swallow like a very large,
fat pill that they don't want to swallow. What
the evidence when you start to break it down
is kind of overwhelming in the favor of that
being a reality. And so the typical reason that
I'd say that I was on a podcast a little while
ago, and the host was talking about how he wanted
to be more vulnerable and more open and sharing.
I said, okay, fantastic. And then he started
speaking about this and he brought up a similar
question. And he had previously just mentioned
something about his ex -wife. And I said, okay,
she might be an example and I'll show you something.
And so we went through this process where I said,
okay, so before you guys split eventually, before
you got there, Looking back now at that situation
and that time period before you actually split,
can you put your hand on your heart and say without
question that you are 100 % convinced that there
were no signs that the relationship was going
that way? He's like, no, I'm right. So if you
can see those signs now, then you could see those
signs back then. And you were likely negotiating
with yourself saying, this is not true. She wouldn't
do that. We're married. Oh, no, we've got a good
relationship. Oh, no, this is worth five. And
you come up with all these excuses and reasons
as to why to ignore the obvious thing that is
happening under the rug that is going to eventually
lead to this outcome. And that's why I say self
betrayal exists, because you're noticing all
along these things that happen now, whether it's
a girl that's out at night or a woman out at
night. and she's being hit on in the bar. She's
detecting red flags. Whether it's people at work
that are seeing their boss continuously take
credit for the work that they do and not passing
it down. And then when a promotion comes around,
they promote someone else. It doesn't matter
the situation. There is always going to be real
time data that's happening that people are going
to rationalize with themselves through like a
cognitive bias or through a filter that they
have, a mechanism. And then that is going to
predict and determine how they actually respond.
And then that response is going to set them up
to get blindsided, backstabbed, betrayed, or
whatever. And then they're going like, I can't
believe it happened. When all along, they saw
it happening, like they were watching it happening
real time, but their brain, it created this heuristic
and the shortcuts kind of sets up a perfect storm.
that allows it to happen in the first place.
So a lot of it is uncovering. In the self -development
community, there's a really big thing. And it's
even bigger in internet marketing. And they say
you need to show the other person it's not their
fault. Now, for the most part, I never subscribe
to that. If you tell people it's not their fault,
then basically you're telling them to continue
being a victim. Now, the ironic thing is this
understanding that we have a betrayal cannot
be anyone's fault. And it can't be anyone's fault
because of multiple reasons. The first reason
is evolutionary psychology. If you look at evolutionary
psychology and how that plays a role with the
nervous system and the way that we are wired,
literally wired to look at this, how neurons
fire, you'll start to see that The first thing
is that the brain wants to learn everything as
fast as it can and turn it into an automatic
path. And it wants to do that because it wants
to conserve energy. Because we've got 7 -11 now,
for the previous 190 ,000 years before that,
we didn't. And the brain hasn't evolved so quickly.
And in fact, I would even argue that we've got
7 -11 now, but you could go back to the 1950s
and it wasn't that way. So it's not. Like we've
had this massive surplus and excess of food all
along There are some people that have the rich
most certainly have had access to it or the majority
of the population have Yeah, so therefore We
need to conserve energy So therefore if you have
to continuously pay attention all the time that's
chewing a lot of energy so therefore if For example
Michael you and I are friends we've been friends
for years. I don't need to pay attention with
you now, because I know Michael, I've got this
internal representation in my head of who Michael
is, how Michael acts. And so when you start acting
differently, or when I start acting differently,
each one of us is like, ah, no, that's not Clay.
No, that's not Michael. No, no, no, no, that
wouldn't happen. because we're having like this
internal cognitive bias, this conflict inside
ourselves because the reality that we're experiencing
and witnessing right now, it doesn't match up
with the reality that we've created inside our
head. There's a disbelief? Yes, sir. There's
a massive disconnect. And so we're clear that
disconnect, it doesn't mean that anyone's being
evil, maniacal, or trying to kill you or out
to screw you over. It just means that there's
a separation of an intention. There's a separation
of a mutually beneficial outcome. Because that's
what trust is in my definition. And if you look
through your life, you can see that every time
someone has done the right thing by you, there's
been a benefit for them that happened to align
with a benefit for you. Yeah. And if every time
someone has not done the right thing by you,
there's been no benefit for them to do it. Here
on the Thriveville journey, we talk a lot about
not just surviving, but thriving. And a big part
of that for me has been understanding my health
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mind and spirit. Of course, of course, always,
always, always consult your physician before
starting any new supplement or health regimen.
Your body is unique and your healthcare provider
should always be part of the conversation. The
links are in the show notes. Now tap in and take
your next step toward thriving. So if you can
peel it back and say that, okay, trust isn't
this characteristic trait. It's not this virtue
that we have, which is, you know, a very noble
way of looking at, but it's not. I don't see
it that way. I see it as more of a practical
and objective thing. Then you can start tracking
behavior real time. And you can start using and
utilizing the information that you get. And when
you use this information, you start tracking
it in the way that it starts presenting itself.
You can start seeing, oh, OK, it looks like we're
starting to go separate ways. Perfect. No worries.
That means the relationship has run its course
in the way that I expect it to run its course.
And that's OK. Now some people can think of that
being a cynical way of looking at things. Some
people can say it's a very negative and conceited
way of looking at things. I just think it's very
much objective. I don't think there's anything
negative about it. I think it's extremely positive
and I also think it's massively liberating because
to come to that realization means that you're
never going to get screwed over because you recognize
that you're in it for yourself. You're a human
being. And everyone else is also in it for themselves.
And it doesn't make them a selfish, horrible,
mean, evil human being. It just makes them a
human being. And that's just how we're all operating.
If you take that stance then, are you just looking
at that as data in the relationship and taking
out the emotion of the relationship? No, not
really. Because you're still going to have emotion.
You're still going to have connection. Yeah.
I would see that there are a lot of people that
if they wouldn't look at it that way. Like if
there's some kind of, you know, point where the
relationships are then going to start, you know,
going away. It just looks like just from my experience
that people put emotion into it, and not the
way where people would think like, oh, well,
you're not benefiting me anymore. And you're
not like there's no benefit benefiting from our
relationship. So let's Let's go the other way.
Right. It's more like it could be blame or upset
or something along those lines. So, okay. In
regards to removing negative emotion from a relationship.
Absolutely. It will most certainly do that. But
in the regard to removing positive emotions from
a relationship, no. And even more to the point,
it will continue to foster positive relationships.
long after relationship because now it's nothing
about how the other person screwed you or they've
done you wrong and you've done them wrong. There's
no they did this. There's no us and them. There's
no us versus them. There's only alignment and
misalignment or unalignment, whatever you want
to call it. So, okay, we're aligned on this thing.
Okay, let's keep working together. Okay, we're
no longer aligned. Perfect. All right. Thanks,
man. I've had a blast. This is awesome. You do
you I'm going to do me and let's keep going.
And maybe our paths come back in the future where
we realign again. I mean, who knows? Yeah, who
knows? And there's, there's points and I'm just
looking at my life where there's nothing wrong.
Nothing happened. It's just, just things just
kind of went. Yep. Separate. Yeah. There was
no, you know, nothing negative. It just, it just
kind of happened the way it happened. Yeah. There's
no disharmony. There's no anger. There's no,
there's nothing there. You're like, okay, like
this is where we're headed. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
You know, um, I want to kind of piggyback a little
bit because we were going somewhere but I want
to I want to kind of establish who you are and
show your story a little bit. And you I wanted
you to talk about a little bit about you know,
what happened in your with your eyes and things
like that because I came across a statement that
you had made. Where you know you had some issues
and like you to go into it, but you had said
something very powerful that That confidence
is a myth people bought Bought it hook line and
sinker. It's like a fast -food advert. Everything
looks amazing Then you order from the restaurant
and your expectations are shattered by reality.
It's not the starting point It's the it's not
even the goal. It's just a side effect commitment
is what you get when you Commitment is what gets
you to the promised land. Why? Because commitment
doesn't ask how you feel. It doesn't care. If
it's real, tethered, pure, and bulletproof, you'll
walk through hell and you'll earn your place
back in the light. Yep. That's accurate. So that
came with an understanding, I guess, in the light
of what happened uh, with you and physically,
can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure.
So that, that belief most certainly formed a
long time before that. It was just reinforced
by the process. So to give full context, 2009,
26th of December, 2009, I was at a music festival.
It's boxing day in Australia day after Christmas
public holiday. And I was walking from one stage
to another. And, uh, my vision in my left eye
just disappeared. vanished. Everything went black,
which was a strange situation to be in. It's
a public holiday in Australia. I didn't think
much of it. I was like, okay, I'm probably just
like having heatstroke or something like this.
I'll just go chill out. I'll go home and rest
and like, it'll be fine. Woke up the next day,
it was still black. I'm like, huh, I should probably
go check this out. So I went to the dentist,
blah, blah, blah. Detached retina. I had three
surgeries. They reattached the retina. It failed.
They reattached the retina. It was a huge success.
I got all my vision back. It was fantastic. And
then they used a stabilizing oil inside my eye
to keep the retina there. And that caused cataracts
on my lens. So I had to operate to remove the
cataract and put a fake lens in. And in doing
so, they took my vision away again. So I've been
blind in there since 2010, about March 2010,
April 2010. And if you fast forward, 14 on years,
November last year, give or take into November
started December. I was on a road trip with my
family for driving up to the national park. And
the lines on the road started to split and deviate
from each other. Oh, that's weird. But I wear
a contact like my right eye was the only functional
one. And I have a high mobile and a high stigmatism.
And so I have to wear what's called toric lenses.
So these lenses, if they don't sit at the exact
right angle in my eye, then it can actually make
my vision worse because they need to be sitting
in the right angle to get the refraction in the
right spot. It was like, Oh, it must be my contacts.
And I left my glasses at home. So I spent the
whole weekend just not really being able to see
anything. I've been there. So we get back. I
go to the optometrist and he's like, uh, I think
you should go see an ophthalmologist. I think
you might have a cataract. He was the first one
to say it. So I went to the hospital and they
said, no, I think you've got dry eyes. So I did
this routine. Ended up going around spending
a lot of months. So that was in December. Got
December, January and February. Went and saw
multiple ophthalmologists at multiple hospitals
flying all around Thailand. Did a whole bunch
of processes and then no, they ended up coming
back three and a half months later. Okay. Yeah,
it's 100 % cataracts. You need to operate again.
I felt relief. And then at the same time, I felt
a huge apprehension. Relief because I figured
out what the issue was apprehension because I
had to have the same surgery that took the vision
from my left eye. So I booked in for the surgery.
I came home. And two days later, it just kind
of slapped me across the face. It was like, okay,
there's a very real chance that at the end of
that surgery, you might not see. Because if they
screw up for some reason, and there's reasons
beyond our control that could screw up, people
are like, oh yeah, like what? Well, if the surgery
had been two days later, I would have been on
the surgery table. When the eight point six earthquake
hit Bangkok. Others all have it in. Okay. Yeah.
So there was things that are completely out of
control where something could have happened.
And if my eye had been cut open, they're doing
that. It's very real that I would not be now
see. Yeah, actually, that's the first thing when
that happened. The first thing I said is I'm
so thankful that my surgery was not today. The
second thing I said was I hope that no one else
had that surgery today because that would have
been an absolute nightmare. That would have been
brutal. So as I can see you now, so obviously
the surgery was successful. But during that point
in those two days, I've spent 15 years helping
myself, helping other people. And like acquiring
a set of skills and the knowledge base, it could
be useful to other people. I also still want
to be useful in case I do go blind and like have
some way to contribute to the world. So I started
thinking about like, what could I do? And the
first thought I thought, you know what, I'll
develop a course. Like that's a good idea. I
can do a lot of video. I can get a lot. I can
deliver a lot of value to people. Life changing
is going to be fantastic. And I thought, what
a stupid idea. How am I going to maintain the
domain? How am I going to maintain all these
other things that you need to do with all the
widgets and the upkeep of plugins? It's like,
well, the thing that I could really do is a book.
So I set to work and I had three weeks to write
and publish the book, which I did. Now I didn't
know that I was going to be able to do it. I
wasn't confident that I was going to be able
to write a good book in three weeks. I wasn't
even confident that It was going to be done in
three weeks. But I was committed. And so I knew
that I would do whatever it takes to make it
happen. It didn't mean it was going to be an
Amazon bestseller, a New York Times bestseller,
or a Wall Street Journal bestseller. And it would
be very impossible to do that because I don't
have a list of 500 ,000 or a million people.
So it would have been very difficult. But I knew
that I'd be able to get it out there and I'd
be able to make it happen. And so I did. I basically
deleted most of my social media. I was getting
ready to like exit off social media. So I started
getting rid of all my contacts, disconnecting
from everyone, which looking back now was a very
stupid thing to do because I went from having
four and a half thousand contacts down to like
200, which doesn't really help with marketing
the book, but you know, whatever. Um, I wasn't
preparing for the book and the operation being
successful. I was preparing for things going
worse. And then let me just like figure it out
after that. But that process itself was very
cathartic because it actually made me go on reassess
the things that I'm doing and how I'm doing them
and how they affect other people. and what are
the core things that underline the things that
I'm doing, which are things that I have never
ever actually put into words or coach people
on. I've never coach people on how I do what
I do or what the mechanisms are behind it. I've
always just coach people and use these tools
unknowingly in my head. So it taught me how to
decode all these things to make something that's
going to be exceptionally useful. Okay. And so
what was, I mean, what was going through your
mind when you were actually starting to create
that? Um, dealing with what you dealt with and,
and then just thinking about like, you know,
writing this book, like what was, what was going
through your mind? There's only one thing. How
do I write a book that's self -contained so that
it provides a solution to people and, and offers
the value of what it says on the cover. And it
actually does what it says. And that was the
big thing. To be able to create that and to be
able to have that and to be able to build that.
That was a very, very important thing for me.
Because there was the chance that I might not
be able to coach again. I want this book to be
like a masterclass of coaching with Clay. And
so that was the intention behind writing the
book. And that was the only thing that was behind
writing the book. Like that this book had to
be to a standard and the standard had to be very
high. And so we're clear, when I published the
book, it had tons of errors. Of course. Like
tons. Like, no, but like obvious ones. Like there
was entire paragraphs that had been repeated
on some of the pictures inside the book and some
of the drawings inside the book. It had the wrong
captions in there. push this thing out so fast
right that we were bound to have some errors
and even my editor like we were just working
so hard that we ended up with it's just too much
they're all fixed now which is good but yeah
of course right uh you know we didn't really
have the space or the breathing room because
we're under the pump and under the fire and to
be frank i think there's maybe 30 copies or 40
copies out there that have these errors in them
and i don't care like i got it done Right. Like
I got it done. I achieve what I want to do. And
if someone is super upset about them having a
book with all these errors, then they can contact
me and I'll give them another one. It's fine.
I don't care. It makes a difference. Like I achieved
my goal. My goal was to have a good book and
the errors in the book don't detract. I mean,
they will, if you want to get pedantic and you're
like, Oh, well this book, I paid the book. So
it should be worth it and should be perfect.
If you want to go down that path and you're okay,
you kind of missing the point. But it doesn't
detract from the message, it doesn't detract
from the value, it doesn't detract from all the
things that are inside the book. Yeah, I was
going to ask you about that. But you answered.
So the book is called Trust Trap, right? Yes,
sir. What is that? Can you just kind of give
just a general understanding of what Trust Trap
is? So the Trust Trap is basically taking back
what we're talking about with the trail. The
Trust Trap is this mechanism that we have inside
the brain, this perfect storm of a combination
of evolutionary psychology, how neurons work
together, and how language comes together to
create this mechanism where we create these frozen
mental images of people. Because we want to conserve
energy inside our brains, we don't want to expel
excess energy when we don't have to. So we create
these I call them safety boxes, safety brackets.
For example, you're now in a safe bracket inside
my mind and I can trust Michael is safe, Michael
is trustworthy, so I no longer need to be paying
attention to everything that he does. Now, if
and when we start interacting and you come into
the picture or I come into the picture and we're...
responding to each other in a different way,
the brain starts correcting. They go, no, no,
that's not Michael. Michael wouldn't do that.
No, that's not Clay. Clay wouldn't do that. Like
we know each other. This is not what we do with
around each other. And so it starts like fracturing
what's going on. And it's fracturing reality,
not the internal representation. And so the trust
trap is the very mechanism that allows you to
get betrayed by yourself. Which is why I say
there's no such thing as betrayal and self -betrayal.
And the reason for that is because of this perfect
storm. So we think people are trustworthy. We
think that trust is this permanence. We think
that trust is a trait and it's not. I mean, you're
free to believe that. I think it's massively
oversold by Disney and all its romanticized ideas
of what trust is. And I think that that's a broken
system. That's a broken definition as a broken
way of looking at the world. I think when you
pull it apart and you take it from this stance,
it actually creates a very freeing way and there
is no trap because you're paying attention to
what is happening now, not what you expect or
anticipate to happen based on a past interpretation
of someone else when they're not even showing
up in that way anymore. Like you're holding onto
a delusion about who someone used to be. versus
paying attention to who they are now and how
they're showing up. So the evolution of someone,
who they were at a certain point and then who
they are at a present moment can be different.
And then some people are trusted in the past
person. I've overstepped slightly because it's
not even who they are, it's just how they're
showing up. It's just how they're showing up.
Right? And how they show up is purely contextual.
So for example, right now we're having this conversation,
right? And this conversation would be entirely
different if we were sitting in a bar. Yeah.
Right. And not because we're being disingenuous
to each other, but it's just going to be a different
conversation because there's a completely different
context surrounding the conversation. Right.
Right. And if we were having a conversation in
a bar and we were the only two people in there,
the depth and the intimacy of that conversation
will be this level, right? Really deep. And then
someone else comes into the bar and they sit
on the other side of the bar, it would change.
And the reason it would change because there's
someone else. So the conversation like, maybe
we'd speak even softer. Maybe we turn our backs
slightly away from the person. They're just small,
subtle things that are going to change the environment.
They're going to shift things. The background
music could shift the environment. A song could
come on that starts playing that triggers a response
to you in your subconscious because it means
something either highly fantastic or highly depressing
that's attached to a memory from a long time
ago. And then I say something to you that then
multiplies that and then it just falls apart.
And so I don't think that that's the case, Michael.
Just saying that context can change so rapidly
and people... are so unaware of how much context
plays a role in everything. So how should people
or not necessarily should, but what's a way for
people to look at trust in relationships? So
that's, I mean, depends on what they want an
outcome. But for me, the way to look at trust
in a relationship is to always look for the mutually
beneficial outcome. And then there would be a
way of asking yourself, okay, what does this
person get by me trusting them? What do they
stand to receive? So there are people that come
into our lives, right? And, and they kind of
break trust or, um, how can someone like some,
some people live in that pattern, like, Or if
it's a relationship like dating relationships
and they get the wrong person all the time, how
can someone break the cycle of trusting the wrong
person, you know, just over and over again? Well,
for me, if you're trusting the wrong person over
and over again, it all starts with the self and
you're not trusting yourself. Okay. And until
you can create the mechanisms and leverage and
tie yourself where you can't trust yourself.
you will likely continue to repeat that pattern.
And it comes back to what I was talking about
before when we're talking about how the host
who I was talking to before, Mark, we were having
these conversations and there are always going
to be signs along the way. And the more you can
pay attention to your gut and the more you can
understand what your gut is trying to tell you,
The more readily armed you are to be able to
make decisions in the real time that are going
to navigate you towards the path of... Safety
is not the right word. I'm going to use the word
peace, but it's not really the right word. Let's
just say it's going to keep you on the smooth
path. You can say straight and narrow, but it's
not really. Versus on a path that has you continue
going through these loops. And these loops are
going to continue to happen. Unless... you can
get the connection with what these signals mean.
So a red flag is not a signal of deception. It's
not a signal of someone being out to screw you
over. It's not even a signal of something being
wrong in a person. It is a signal from your brain
that something is incongruent in what the other
person is presenting to you. It's a signal for
you to start paying attention that something
doesn't add up. What they're saying isn't aligned
with their intention. What they're saying isn't
aligned with their behavior. What they're saying
is not aligned. Now, women especially are socially
conditioned to override their gut. A lot of people
are taught that, you know, don't listen to your
gut. And to be fair, there is a strong case for
that. with people that have a lot of anxiety,
their gut will respond and be very prone to thinking
that everything's going to fall apart. So there
is that. Additionally, you can train yourself
to continuously go into processes that are negative,
which is why studying nonverbals and understanding
body language and then studying linguistics,
you could start to detect lies that are happening.
Now everyone lies, right? I lie, I promise you.
Every single person lies. I don't really care.
Anyone says, Oh, I'm honest. I've never lied.
You can still be an honest person and you can
tell. What's the term? You can tell white lies.
I mean, I joke with my kids all the time. And
so now my kids say, Oh, you're a liar. I'm like,
yeah, sure. Whatever. Like, uh, they'll come
in and they'll say, Oh, um, We haven't had any
ice cream to them. I guess you had you had five
ice creams or you had six ice creams for breakfast
this morning No, we didn't know we didn't you're
lying like I saw you go down the shops and have
six ice cream so it's am I trying to destroy
their reality and Make them feel horrible. No
playing games done in jest So yeah, like everyone
lies so don't turn around think that you're this
special human being you've never told a lie in
your life that at some point you will have told
a lie. So it's okay. Now, people telling lies
isn't the problem. Figuring out what they're
trying to cover up, that's more where it becomes
useful. What are they protecting? What are they
guarding? What do they not want me to see? Because
if someone's lying to their spouse about a surprise,
birthday present or a surprise anniversary thing
like that would be considered by most people.
It's very kind and generous act. Some people
might not like it. They don't like surprises,
but it's a useful tool. It's a useful mechanism
when it starts connecting with body language
and indicators of high stress and indicators
of deception. If you just start pulling things
apart. And again, this comes back into contact.
But if you don't train yourself in nonverbals,
you don't pay attention to what's actually happening
with other people, then your conscious mind isn't
given the information that it needs to be able
to connect and register with what the gut is
telling it. Because it doesn't have that information,
it will start to shift things in another direction
and it will start to push things in a way that
is going to go with the information that it does
have and the information it does have Is that
this person is safe? Or is that we're okay? Or
is that, oh, no, we can ignore our gut because
we can fix this person, or we can do this with
this person, or it's not really that much of
a big deal. That's a lot. That's a lot. So how
do people begin to trust their gut? What are
the signs of Being able to trust your gut. If
there are, there are statistics that say you
shouldn't training. You're going to try author
experience. Yep. Absolutely. But there's also
like, you're going to train it through experience,
but you're also going to train it through teaching
yourself what this stuff means. Right. So if
you're someone that has been conditioned not
to trust your gut, you will most likely. have
learned to disconnect from the signals of what
it's trying to tell you and You most likely have
learned to play them down like it's not really
important. So On a path to reconnect with that
Having the information that says this type of
behavior indicates high stress and Seeing that
when it keeps showing up with a person doing
a certain thing is, okay, I need to pay attention.
This is a subject that's very sore for them.
It's very sensitive for them, subject they don't
want to go into, then you pay attention. And
the biggest thing for me that I found that was
highly useful is to just look for behavior and
verbals in alignment. If a person says they're
going to do something, they do that thing. Yeah.
And they might not do it in a timeframe that
you want, so we're clear. But if they always
do that thing and you're tracking them doing
that thing then that becomes reliable It doesn't
mean that you can trust them all the time forever
in a permanent state Yeah, but what you can trust
is when they say they're gonna do something and
they do that thing You know, okay. No worries.
You can start to rebuild the mechanism that way
and what you can trust is when someone says something
and does something differently You know, okay,
so there's like a misalignment there. There's
an incongruence there. So what's really going
on? And if you get a red flag that starts coming
up during one of those second sessions, I don't
know why I said sessions. Use that during that
experience in that context, then that's the point
in time to start paying attention. That's it's
sounds like just the process of. someone honoring
their word over and over and over again? Not
even over and over and over again. So it's just
in the instance, you're taking it step by step,
right? Because if they're doing it over and over
and over again, there's different ways that people
start to learn to build trust. Some people build
trust almost automatically. They see someone's
a trustworthy person. They shake their hand like,
okay, it's a good trustworthy person. And they've
done that. Say again? You can feel that? Yeah,
some people do. Absolutely. Some people, they'll
take like a period of time, like three to six
weeks. Some take six months, depends on the person.
Some will need to see someone do things multiple
times and others will just be watching constantly
and paying attention. And so it just really depends.
So there's multiple ways to get to that point.
For me, it's about always paying attention, not
because people are out to screw you over. because
it's about being present in the moment, so I
don't get caught in the trap that my brain will
naturally default to, because it will. If you
stop paying attention, your brain will revert
back to that way, because it doesn't chew as
much energy. And if it doesn't chew as much energy,
then I'm not going to be as exhausted, which
means I'm going to be able to do energy for other
things that are more important. And the more
important things for the brain is sex and food.
From a survival standpoint, we're here to procreate,
so it's going to be looking for all the other
important things and it's going to be wanting
to eat food. That's probably where you're hungry
after procreation. I want to talk about sabotaging
amongst high performers and just entrepreneurs.
For some cases, why do high achievers people
who should know better, sabotage their own success.
So typically speaking, I call it smart people
syndrome. Smart people think that they can rationalize
and logic their way out of a lot of problems.
But most people, I'm gonna really go out on a
limb here and say all of the most human problems
are emotional. Because with a lack of an ability
to regulate emotions, logic's going to get thrown
out the window. With trying to control your subconscious
by brute force with your conscious mind, you
can only do it so long. Because your conscious,
unconscious and subconscious, non -conscious,
other than conscious, whatever you want to call
it, is running 24 -7 and it's chewing up the
majority of the power. And for you to try and
consciously imagine, like try and think about
this for a second. We all had to learn how to
walk. Now we do it unconsciously. But there was
one point where we had to focus on 147 individual
muscles to make it work. There was a point where
we had to focus and concentrate on how to learn
how to poop and pee. But it's all unconscious.
So imagine if you had to focus on all of those
things consciously still. You're not going to
get anything done, which is why the natural heuristic
of the brain is to learn something as fast as
it can and turn it into an automatic pattern.
I can't imagine, yeah. Right. So that's a very
real example of these mechanisms that come into
place. Imagine if you didn't have the capacity
to remember how to open up a door. Let's say
the door handle was different. Right. So you've
got a round door knob, then you've got the one
that goes to the side that you grab. Then you've
got some doors that slide, some doors that push,
some doors that pull. Imagine if you had to learn
every single time you went through a door. You
didn't have the ability to go, oh, it's a door.
It's going to move some way like this. You had
to consciously think about it every single time.
I can't even think about that. That would be
brutal, right? It would be brutal. And then I
can't even imagine not having the ability to
just automatically be able to open the door.
Right. So there's, I mean, that's a very, very
extreme example. Obviously the point I'm making
is trying to track all that consciously. You
don't need to, and your subconscious takes care
of all that for you and your subconscious is
an emotional beast. It runs off emotion. It doesn't
run off logic. And so people fall into these
traps because they think, oh yeah, I understand
this. So therefore it's done, but they never
deal with the emotional side of things. And because
they don't deal with the emotional side of things,
the loop keeps coming back. And like, I don't
understand, like I worked through this inside
my head, it makes sense to me. Right, but you
didn't go through and figure out what was underneath
and what was the driving factor. So there's a...
a process that I speak to people about from time
to time, which I think is kind of funny. And
there was a gentleman who got pushed into my
circle by his wife and he was a smoker. And she
was very much encouraging him to come and quit
smoking. And he didn't really want to. And he
eventually rocked up this session, which he booked
a few times and then he canceled and canceled
and canceled and ended up coming. And we were
chatting for maybe 10 minutes before it came
out that, and I got him to admit that he actually
didn't want to stop smoking. And I said, okay,
so how about we break this down? So we started
pulling it apart. And it turns out that while
consciously he did want to stop smoking, he couldn't,
and he was compelled to keep smoking because
of his need for freedom. His needs for freedom?
Everyone else at work. got to take smoke breaks,
and he had to continue working because he wasn't
smoking. Because, wow, that's wild. Right? When
he got home from work, and he wanted just 30
minutes to decompress, as soon as he stepped
in through the door, everyone would be on him,
and he didn't get any space. But his kids hated
the fact that he smoked, and so did his wife.
So as soon as he'd have a cigarette, they'd leave
him alone. He'd go stand outside with his cigarette.
So there was an subconscious motive there, that
cigarettes equal freedom, cigarettes equal space,
because I get space to myself. And it was hugely
important. It's usually important for everyone.
It's just the amount that varies. And so I said,
okay, well, what if we bring your wife in and
we create an agreement and you speak to your
boss and you create an agreement that you get
these two periods that everyone else takes risk,
right? You get those to just go sit. Stand in
Sun sit and chill with a bottle of water, whatever
you want to do Like would that satisfy and give
you the same thing. So yeah, yeah So we brought
in his wife we explained situations and she her
first reaction was extremely negative I don't
use that word very often, but it was extremely
negative and she said well, this is just stupid
He shouldn't have to do that. Like I'm his wife
lady You're the one that pushed him to come here.
He didn't want to come Second of all, you're
now getting a viable solution where he's going
to stop smoking and he's not going to smell.
He's not going to be doing this. You told me
the whole reason you want to stop smoking was
because of potential lung cancer. So that's going
to go out the window. So you're getting what
you want. What is the problem? What's the problem?
Yeah. And she said, well, if you really have
another problem, then maybe you should be coming
in to get some work done because he is willing
to go down this path. So. I would suggest that
you make peace with it because it's definitely
a viable option. And if you don't want to make
peace with this and you're expecting more, then
you're not really playing fair in my mind. Like
he is willing to come to the table and do the
thing you asked for. And now you're saying you
want more than this and what he wants is not
fair. Like where's the limit here? Yeah. Anyway,
she eventually came around. We did the session.
His boss had agreed. Everything was going great
for six months. And then all the boundaries started
to creep. The boss started to ask him to come
back inside because he wasn't smoking. The wife
and the kids started to go out and start bugging
him during that 30 minutes when he was just chilling
by himself. And lo and behold, within a month,
he was smoking again. And she came back to me
and said, look, I want my money back because
it didn't work. And I could stand around and
said, yep, that's fair enough. Can I ask you
a question? She said, did you maintain the boundaries
that you set? And she said, what? I said, did
you maintain the balance? Oh, well, yeah. After
six months, it shouldn't be a problem. I said,
no, I'm not funding you. You set up a system.
You broke the system. The system was there to
give him this program and you broke it. So he's
gone back to what he knows works. Sorry. That's
not on me. That's on you. Like, I'm not going
to be held responsible for that. You need to
start owning like what you're doing. Anyway,
when she kind of got that slap in the face, she
then reverted. back to the old ways and he managed
to start getting back off the cigarettes again.
But the whole point of that is to demonstrate
like the subconscious is like this massive driver.
And it will push for things. And you can try
and consciously reason with it as much as you
want. But every second, so right now, like you're
listening to me, right? Hopefully, maybe not.
But at the same point, you're not paying attention,
right? You're not paying attention to the feeling
of your butt resting on that chair. But you are
now. It wasn't until you said something. Right.
But subconsciously, I couldn't have put your
attention there if that feeling didn't already
exist there. Understood. Right. So you went from
paying attention to my voice to paying attention
to your butt, and you couldn't pay attention
to my voice while you were paying attention to
your butt. So just think about that for a second
when you start thinking of the overwhelming capacity
of the conscious mind to not be able to manipulate
the subconscious. And that is exactly why smart
people get stuck. Because they think that this
small fraction of a window into our consciousness,
that is our conscious mind, can overpower something
that is immensely more powerful, that is relentless,
that has a battery that never turns off and is
always on and functioning and running. Now you
got me going back and forth, feeling the feeling
and listening to you. I'm like, okay, where am
I? Where am I now? Man, we could talk about so
much, but one of the things I do want to know
is you talk about, you know, you're straight,
straight, no chaser, no BS. One of the things
I want to address is what's the biggest BS advice
that's out there about healing and forgiveness?
The biggest BS advice that's out there. Yeah.
Well, that's a big call. So I didn't know that
it's advice. It's definitely a common misconception
that is forgiveness is about the other person.
Okay. I was, I was kind of thinking you're going
to say that, um, please expound. A lot of people
think that forgiveness comes from you forgiving
this other person for what they did to you and
you forgiving them because it's going to harden
them, so to speak. That's neither here nor there.
Forgiveness comes for you healing and moving
on. Forgiveness, from what a lot of people teach,
talks about You're giving yourself space to move
forward again. It doesn't mean you're giving
them permission to do it again. And these are
all wonderful things, but they're all kind of
bullshit. Forgiveness really comes down to it.
There's forgiving the past version yourself that
led to the current situation that you're in today.
Because if you can never forgive yourself, then
you're never really going to be able to move
forward past something anyway. Because you're
still gonna be trapped in these loops. This is
why it's so click All roads lead to Rome, right?
It's the same process as self -betrayal, right?
No one else betrayed. I mean there are people
right you get sociopaths psychopaths narcissists
that Aren't necessarily intent on screwing you
over they don't even wake up in the day going,
you know what today I'm gonna screw this person
over They just go today. I'm gonna get me what's
mine and I don't care who gets in the way Hmm,
so they're not even necessarily out to screw
you over. They just don't care that they do Now
there can be some bench people like what they
say the hell happened a few like a woman's gone
Yeah, so in that case that human being might
be out to get revenge or seek revenge or exact
prevention fair enough For the most part I argue,
I'm making this number up, but I say over 95,
96 % of people that you ever come across in your
entire life, don't even think about you when
you're out of the room, right? You don't take
up real estate inside their brain. So the fact
that you're thinking that, oh, they got to screw
me over, it's just misguided. They're thinking
about what they can do for themselves and how
they can get themselves. And by you not paying
attention to these signals of how they're thinking
purely in it for themselves and while this is
distinct while they're thinking about what's
in for themselves. There's no alignment with
you moving in the same direction and you're not
paying attention. You then walk down the road
and before you know it, you're both saying I
do but you're saying I do to two very different
things into very different versions of reality
and next minute. He or she is a gold digger.
They've left you in a big scam and now you screwed
and you don't even know what happened You couldn't
but you could predict it and you feel ashamed
and the reason you feel ashamed is because you
saw these red flags happening and you saw them
happening real time and you ignored them and
So people think well, I need to forgive that
person for what they did to me buddy. No, you
need to forgive yourself because Until you do
forgive yourself, you'll never make peace with
who you are and where you're supposed to be in
life. I agree. I agree. What do you hope people
will do differently or, yeah, just do differently
after picking up your book and reading it or
listening to you speak? So one of the things
that I wrote the book for, I'd say the main concept
I wrote it for was to give people the ability
to learn to look at trust differently, not with
other people, but with themselves and to give
them a sense and a pathway back to trusting themselves.
So it allows them to go back and recalibrate
if they would choose to every situation in their
life where they ended up in a position that they
didn't want to be. And it allows them to reassess
and track back like, oh my God, all those signals
were there. I just wasn't paying attention. And
if you go back and you replay those steps enough,
just by doing that, it'll start to rekindle and
re -spark the element of trust. And then as you
start using it moving forward, it will start
to increase. I got a message from a friend of
mine. And a former client of mine, we haven't
spoken in a few years, but she found out I wrote
a book. So she's like, I'm going to read it.
She is usually a very quick reader. So I was
anticipating a turnaround of like 24 hours because
she's usually tears through them. She replied
to me six weeks after she bought the book. She's
like, I'm sorry it took so long, but I took a
lot of notes. And for me, that was like a huge
compliment. I said, okay. She goes, yep. She
goes, you had everything referenced. right in
a very powerful way. And it was so confronting,
I had to put it down multiple times to sit with
the information that came inside. Okay, that's
cool. But the biggest thing I got back was the
fact that I could learn to trust myself again.
And the sense of freedom that came for that,
because it meant that I could make decisions.
And I can make decisions with confidence that
would move in any direction that I want to go.
That's kind of the ultimate name. to be able
to give people back this sense of freedom where
they take the agency for their own lives again
instead of being a victim from other people.
And even if it's unknowing, the book is designed
in a way to root that out of you and shove it
back in your face and go, this is the author
of all your pain and the author of all the pain
is the person you see in the mirror. Real quick.
I have I was going to do a mirror mirror exercise,
but there's a couple of things that you that
you posted and I'm just going to go through one
of them. Okay. It was a mirror mirror exercise
and I just want to see what you have to say about
that. One in the mirror mirror. You said you
weren't fooled. You needed to lie more than the
truth. What do you say to that? So the lie more
than the truth comes on as this process where
You're holding on to the lie or this deception
that you've created in yourself like this is
what the relationship is like and so I'm gonna
hold on to this this image this creation this
construction that I've created inside my head
of This relationship to be working or to be perfect
or to be what I wanted because that's so much
easier than facing the cognitive dissonance of
getting it wrong about someone and having to
admit that you got it wrong. A lot of people
think that, okay, getting it wrong is like a
huge failure on my part and that makes me a lesser
human being. I'm like, fail, man. Fail as fast
as you can and fail forwards. Because the faster
you crash and burn, the faster you can rebuild
and get up and go again. So, like, don't... Lean
into failure, but embrace it. And if it shows
up, go, okay, cool. We screwed that up. Let's
do the next thing and just jump on. If you want
to get bogged down by it and make it, make it,
and this is worth it. See people fall into another
trap. They identify with failures. Like people,
people are so crazy sometimes, man. They identify
with their failures, right? Like, Oh, I am the
loser, but I suck at this. I'm such a piece of
shit. All right, sorry if I'm not allowed to
swear, I apologize. You're good. And then they
had these huge wins and they're like, oh yeah,
the circumstances allowed me to do that. What?
Are you nuts? Like, you identify yourself as
being this hunk of crap, but then when the good
things happens, like, oh no, that happened to
someone else. Like one of the things I love to
teach people is, okay, every single thing that
happens in your life that's negative, make it
external, make it impermanent, and make it, there's
three things that are going to be so annoying
now when the third one is coming. So basically
it happened due to a circumstance. It's not a
characteristic or a trait that you have, right?
And the third one is right on the tip of my tongue.
This is going to frustrate the living hell out
of me right now. And all, so I'm just going to
go to the other side. So the positive things,
You want to make it permanent. So you make it,
oh, yeah, that happens to me all the time because
I am this kind of person. Right. And because
I'm this kind of person, I do these things. It's
just who I am. So you're making it permanent.
You're making it pervasive. It doesn't matter
that it happened here. It can happen in any area
of my life. This is just how I rock up. So you
start to make your wins more about you. You make
your failures more about circumstances. And you
can say it's kind of egotistical. In a sense,
I'm not going to argue that. At the same time,
I think a lot of people could use something like
this because there are a lot of people that seem
to just take any chance they get to demean themselves
and like berate themselves, to take them down
a peg. And I think you could really use a different
way of doing it. You could use a way that's hyper
supportive of yourself and you could really get
great results. Clay, man, we can go another hour.
You have so much to share, and man, I had even
more lined up. But I just want to say thank you,
man, because what you've been through, what you've
experienced, and the knowledge that you bring
is like treasure. So thank you for bringing the
knowledge. Thank you for just having this gift
of just understanding you, of being able to trust
yourself again, learn how to break through that
and really giving that gift to the world. As
your last words on this podcast, something from
your heart, what would you like to say? So I
had a realization fairly recently in the last
12 to 18 months. So it's fairly recent. in the
scope of 40 years. And that was very simple.
It very much fits me. So I went into self -development
because I want to learn how to make people do
what I said. Like I never go into coaching. I
didn't even want to be a coach. I want to learn
how to negotiate better, how to get raises, how
to get better positions. Like it was all about
me. And then it kind of stemmed from there. And
the drive for that was this Emptiness isn't the
right word, but it's going to do for now. Like
I had something wrong with me. Like I had this
emptiness. I had this imperfection and I was
trying to fix it. And the realization I had around
about 18 months ago is that there's nothing to
fix and there is no imperfection. And if you
start from the premise that you're trying to
fix an imperfection, you're trying to fix a flaw,
then you'll never fix it. Because if it's already
flawed, how can a flaw fix itself? Like even
that premises self is flawed, because you're
never going to be able to find the flaw because
you're already flawed. So it's never ending loop.
So what ended up coming out of that was something
amazing. And that was that we're all born perfect,
and we get all this crap laid onto us. And so
you don't need to work to feel a whole. You don't
even need to work. You just need to realize that
you've had a lot of stuff put on you in your
life that isn't yours, that you don't need to
carry, and isn't your burden anymore. It becomes
a really powerful thing when you start to connect
with the fact that you're already whole, that
you're already complete. And when you can connect
with that idea, it just gives you a sense of
peace like there's no tomorrow and that you aren't
broken. Like no one's broken. Not in that sense.
And you don't need this external thing that you've
been chasing. When you're holding complete anything
else, it's nothing outside that you're searching
for Yeah, yeah within yeah Clay how do people
get in touch with you? In your book Easiest way
to get in touch with me is email me go at claim
off a calm or you can reach out to me on X or
LinkedIn or Facebook more active on X The book
is TrustTrapBook .com. That's the website for
the book. Yeah, they're probably the easiest
ways. Sweet. Thank you, man. So our question
of the week is, what's one moment where you betrayed
your own gut and it cost you? So leave those
comments down below. We read them and Clay, thank
you for being on the podcast. Thank you for being
here for Phuket. I know it's early and thank
you for delivering such a good message. And I
appreciate you. Thanks for having me. It's been
fun. Absolutely. And as we always say, let's
make thriving our new normal. I'll catch you
next time. Before you go, I just want to say
thank you. Thank you for being a part of the
Thrabul journey. Every time you show up here,
you're choosing growth. clarity, and the deeper
work of becoming who you're meant to be in this
world. And if you're ready to reconnect with
what truly lights you up, I created something
powerful that can help you. It's called The Empowered
Path, Seven Days to Reclaim Your Purpose and
Passion. It's a beautifully designed guided workbook
that walks you through a week of powerful prompts.
clarity building tools, and real mindset shifts.
Now you can get instant access to it today. It's
a small investment for a huge return. Your energy,
your clarity, your alignment. And if you want
to take it deeper, check this out. I'm offering
a limited number of free 30 minute purpose coaching
sessions. No pressure. No pitch, just space for
you to reconnect with your direction, your gifts,
and what's next. So you can grab the guide and
book your session at the link in the show notes.
Let's not just go through the motions. Let's
really walk this path on purpose. I appreciate
you. And like we always say, let's make thriving
our new normal. And I'll talk to you soon.