You talk about a little bit about your story.
So can you take us back to your early years and
share what it was like growing up, what I mentioned
to you in the beginning of this? Yeah. I think
sometimes it's hard to know you're in a cult
till you're not in it anymore. So I started going
to school at five and then we joined the church
at ten and so it became my entire life, right?
I was at school Monday through Friday there and
I went there from first grade all the way to
senior year of high school. The big switch for
me was as a person and then translated into my
leadership that helped my curiosity was the recognition
that validation is not external. I am valid and
I am valuable simply because empathy is necessary.
And trying to understand the lived experience
of people outside of themselves is necessary.
And I like to break this down in hard numbers
for people to sit with, right? So the United
States, the population of the United States,
Americans, only make up 4 .34 % of the global
population. Wow. I want us to sit with that,
right? Only 4 .34 % of the global population.
Number one, pin that. Number two, white people
only make up. She grew up inside a cult where
control was the rule and curiosity was forbidden,
but she broke free and transformed that pain
into power. Today, Shana Francesca is a global
voice for ethical leadership, intentional living,
and courage to design your own life. Her story
isn't just about survival. It's about building
communities, companies, and cultures where everyone
is valued and empowered. In this episode, how
she turned trauma into purpose and how you can
too. Hey there. Look, my hope is that the Thravo
journey meets you exactly where you are and helps
you rise into who you're here to be. It's 2025
and this is your year to thrive despite what
the world is throwing at us. And our desire is
that our conversations inspire you. bring clarity
and give you a reason to breathe deeper. So our
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We're walking through a 22 week series built
to anchor each week and intention, purpose, and
meaningful connection. I do so look forward to
hearing your voice and can't wait to see you
in the group. But for right now, let's get into
it. Welcome to the podcast. Shana, how are you
doing today? I'm good. Woo, that was a great
intro. Thanks for that. I work on those things.
I work. I can tell most people just read the
bio that I give them, which is perfectly fine.
Yeah. But I love that you didn't do that. That
was great. Thanks for that. I try to, you know,
create some, some wonder around who are who we
have on the show and my when myself and Yvonne,
we got to read about your story. It was very
intriguing to us. And so just go back before
we get into who you are today and that wonderful
purpose that you're living. You talk about a
little bit about your story. So can you take
us back to your early years and share what it
was like growing up what I mentioned to which
in the front in the beginning of this? Yeah,
yeah. You know, I think sometimes it's hard to
know you're in a cult till you're not in it anymore.
Yeah. Especially when you're raised in it. Right.
And, you know, I started going to the school
that was part of the religious institution that
we eventually joined and became this very cult
-like institution. So I started going to school
at five, and then we joined the church at 10,
and so it became my entire life, right? I was
at school Monday through Friday there, and I
went there from first grade all the way to senior
year of high school. right? And then also part
of the church. And, you know, when you're in
that environment, just like in a household, depending
on where you are inside the institution depends
on your experience, right? So there's some people
who either attended that school or attended the
church and did not have the experience I had.
But there were many people who did, right? Those
of us who were a little bit closer to the inner
circle, who were in leadership, so on and so
forth, got to see things that other people didn't
get to see. The hiding of abuse, the hiding of
pedophilia, the intimidation tactics that were
used to silence people, the obfuscating of the
truth, right? We're just not going to say the
truth. We're going to say something entirely
otherwise. The children of the head pastor were
hiding the fact that he had dementia for like
almost a decade. And he was responsible for people.
You know, we knew something was off, but we thought
they would tell us, you know what I mean? And
here's, there's, you know, 1500 people at that
time, you know, inside this congregation, you
know, looking to this person who really needed
to be being taken care of, who didn't need to
be responsible for our spiritual right, but his
Children didn't want to let go of the power that
it gave them to be, you know, part of with him
as the head pastor, so on and so forth, and ended
up being investigated by the FBI. The church
was making investments in tax liens. If you're
not familiar with that, it's perfectly legal,
but churches are given tax exempt status so that
they invest in communities. If you're not familiar
with tax liens, you can buy up somebody's back
taxes on their home, which us having to pay property
taxes on a house that we've only purchased once
every single year is a whole other conversation.
But you can, in fact, purchase somebody's back
taxes and they have a year to pay you back. And
if they don't, and you can charge the maximum
interest in New Jersey is 17%. This is clearly
already somebody struggling financially, that
now you're putting this significant tax on their
tax, right? And now you're requiring them to
pay it back. And the church would, in fact, take
those properties when people couldn't pay it
back. was both unethical behavior and illegal
behavior. The church was mandated reporters and
they hid the fact that my father was a pedophile
and never reported it. Never reported it. As
a matter of fact, they canceled my mother. That's
the avenue he chose because she wasn't being
as godly a wife as she should have been. And
so this is the kind of harmful ideology that
doesn't start out that way. But it gets that
way when we divest from curiosity, respect and
accountability, which is why my work is built
on that. Because I realized what was missing
in those environments and growing up in a place
where child labor is normalized, although it's
like, oh, you'll get to miss class to help us
set up for this event that they're renting our
facilities. You know what I mean? Like this kind
of And it becomes like a reward, but child labor
should never be a reward. No, never. Never. And
that shouldn't be normalized that you laboring
for adults for free is in fact, you know, something
beneficial. And as a neurodivergent person who
was constantly told I was bad and wrong, you
know, because I couldn't sit still in a chair,
you know, being used, you know, in a way that
let me get my energy out sounded enticing to
me, but then I missed out on necessary education.
Right. And so, you know, there's a lot of conversations
to be had just in that reality. Right. Like 17
different conversations, but there was so much
and So many people are still reeling today. There
was a couple of people I know who have been institutionalized
because their mental health was just so fractured
from being inside of this organization. And so
many of us have complex PTSD and had to go to
therapy for years and so on. So the financial
toll and the mental toll and the physical toll
that it takes on you takes decades to repair.
Right. Decades. I can imagine. First of all,
thank you for sharing that part of you. And when
you were sharing that, I was thinking like, how
does one that has been indoctrinated in that
world and they're like, okay, wait, something's
going on. What was that shift in that change
that you began to recognize that got you out
of that space? I had always had, that's a good
question, I had always had questions, but people
loved to use thought -stopping cliches to get
me to stop thinking, right? Like that's the whole
point, they're thought -stopping cliches. Like
God's ways are higher than our ways, right? It
was always the favorite, right? You know, I am
not, I'm not required to worship something a
physical being. I no longer believe in a sky
daddy. That's how I like to call them. Sorry
if that's disrespectful to anyone's beliefs.
I just don't happen to believe in a singular
puppet master in the sky anymore. I believe that
there's something that gives life in all of us
and to honor that in all living things is our
greatest duty. But, you know, I would be told
that God, as I was presented with him, you know,
was always this dominating male figure, was all
powerful and all knowing, and yet constantly
refused to actually protect me or reveal himself
or any of those things. And my questions compounded,
compounded and compounded. And at first I let
them go and I was just like, yeah, God's ways
are higher than our ways. But then when the people
who were supposed to be standing between me and
God and helping direct me to God, when I saw
the things that they were doing that were causing
so much harm, Even in the cult that I grew up
in and then the subsequent churches I attended
after because I left and I was like, well, maybe
it's just that church. And then I started going
to other churches and the same pattern arose.
They were trying to become what I had just left.
Refusing to be financially open and honest, you
know, not wanting to be held accountable, skewing
stories, right? Like it just, you see that there's
accountability is looking the thing in the face,
right? And taking accountability. and responsibility
for the impact. And if you're constantly obfuscating
the impact and pretending it's not that bad,
right? While the people impacted aren't being
given a voice to say whether or not it hurt them
that bad. And by the time they are given, they've
been gaslit so much, the truth has been so skewed,
right? And so you start to see all these things
and you're just like, for me, at least I was
like, shoot, I just... I don't think I can be
part, I didn't say shoot, but that's the PG version.
Shoot, I don't think I can be part of, right?
I don't think what I'm looking for can be found
inside of whether it be the denomination I grew
up in or non -denominational churches or so on
and so forth. And I looked and I looked and I
was like, I just don't, I'm not finding a place
that feels human, that feels humane, that feels
like we're honoring one another. finding that,
right? The last church I went to, I ended up
talking to the pastor and I said, I feel like
in the Good Samaritan, we are the people stepping
over the bodies. He's like, I agree with you.
He had no plan of action to change that or desire
to and never came back to me with one. Ultimately,
when I left there, is when I fully started deconstructing,
right? Like before then I left the cult because
I saw all the harm. I was like, there's no part
of this that's okay. There's no part of this
that Jesus would be okay with, right? Jesus would
be tearing down the temple. Jesus would be throwing
over the tables. Jesus would be telling them
they're whitewashed tombs. I don't see Jesus
in this place. But by the time I had gone to
so many other churches and seen the same behavior,
I was like, maybe church isn't for me. I'm just
going to worship God directly. And then without
all of the voices, telling me how I should interpret
things and just interpreting it for myself. I
finally was like, I actually don't think I believe
any of this. I think Jesus was an incredible
figure. If he was real, he was an incredible
figure. I think he did incredible things. I think
he truly put forward ideas we should be embracing.
But I don't think that I can reconcile this figure
that claims to be all powerful and all knowing
and yet is not benevolent. as far as I can tell.
I can't reconcile those things. I can't say that
he's benevolent and does the things that he does
being all powerful and all knowing. I can't reconcile
those things anymore. And so it kind of all fell
apart for me accidentally. I did not mean, I
did not mean it was not like I went into it questioning.
It was just that I guess the question stopped
being silenced and then I couldn't not hear them
anymore. And so there was always this questioning
that was happening for a long time, from the
time I was probably 12 or 13. But I didn't officially
leave the church and leave the ideology until
I was 34. Okay, well, that's a long answer. I
know. But you know what, it gives me an understanding
of, you know, who you are. And what stages as
you went through, it wasn't just like a straight
drop off, you know, you had to curate this understanding
of who, you know, who you are and the spaces
that you've gone through. And I totally understand
that. So you're, you went through this and what
was the pivotal moment that was just like, no
more. I have, I got this figured out for myself.
I think it was like the straw that broke the
camel's back. I was, I was always in leadership
in every church I ever attended. I very quickly
would join leadership volunteer and then be in
leadership. And in the last church I attended,
one of the fellow leader volunteers looked at
someone who was asking about the sermon that
had just been preached and was like, hey, I have
a question about something that the pastor said
and I want to ask him about it. It was a perfectly
reasonable question. Don't ask me what it was.
I can't remember. And this person said, hey,
I think I'm just going to email the pastor and
ask him. And I was like, that's a great idea.
I think you should do that. And the other volunteer
leader said, oh, no, we don't question. we don't,
we don't question the pastor. And I was like,
Oh, so then, Oh, so that pastor is a human being.
They're not actually God and we shouldn't hold
human beings on pedestals. inside of any organization,
accountability is required for a healthy, respectful,
ethical environment. And absent of that, like
if it's already made its way into leadership,
it's because it's coming from on high. It's filtering
its way down that hasn't been interrupted. Right?
In a hierarchical environment, it's coming top
down. And I was like, Whoa, that's scary. And
that's when I had that conversation with him
where I said, I think we're you know, it was
right after George Floyd's death and, you know,
2020. And I was like, where are we? Why are we
not in the streets? Why are we not speaking up?
Why are we as a diverse, you know, group of people
worshiping God together? Why are we not standing
up for human rights, for basic human rights?
Why are we not in the streets? And Why are we
not, not even just in the streets, why are we
not having that conversation inside the church
too? Right? Like I just not, I don't understand.
And he didn't have an explanation. And I was
like, okay. And then I found out that they had
brought on staff somebody who was credibly accused
of sexual violence on the church property. Oh,
wow. And had been a volunteer and then they brought
him onto staff. And I was like, yeah, I'm out.
At that point, I just couldn't do it anymore.
There was too many fractures. And it was just
like, I think the problem is the ideology. The
problem is constantly fostering an environment
where accountability is left out on purpose.
or respect is applied differently based on who
you are inside of an organization and how you
are being marginalized in society in general,
right? So if you're just a little bit more respectful
than society in general, well, then you're doing
well. That's not what Jesus said. That's not
right. And so it was just it got to the place
where I was like, I can either continue to follow
this ideology or I can reclaim my humanity. And
I don't actually need someone threatening me
with hell to show up in humane ways and fight
for human rights. I don't need that. And so if
that's true, I'll just worship God on my own.
So that was the final straw. That was the final
straw. And in that space, I'm hearing that you
reclaim your humanity. And in this time, You
were in corporate America, right, still? I had
just left. I had just left a year before. Yeah.
Okay. And all this stuff that we just talked
about, that created who you were in this moment.
And you're now experiencing yourself as being
human, experiencing this humanity. When did you
actually begin to build your business? Because
I wanted to kind of do a little shift here. Because
based on all this stuff that we talked about,
it just seems like when you began to have your
own company, a lot of what you've endured and
went through. Oh, it came with me. Yeah, it came
with you. And you began to, but you talk about,
you know, true leadership and it's based on ethical
relationships. And can you explain what you mean
by that? Yeah. So this is the bridge, right?
The bridge is growing up in a cult, I experienced
what happens when we aren't invested in ethical
leadership and relationship, the dire consequences
for us, for our humanity, both individually and
collectively. And so when I left that at 26,
I started doing research on my own. looking for
models for healthy leadership and relationships
so that I could show up in the world in ways
that felt honest and felt like because we know
when we're doing something that's crappy, that's
hurting someone else. We know. We can feel it.
We carry it with us behind us. We drag it with
us into every moment of the day. We know. We
know. Unless you're a sociopath, you know, right?
Yeah. And so like, I was dragging all this with
me. And I'm like, something's not right. And
I have to do something to show up as who I am.
And I don't even know what that means. And I
don't even know how to tap into that. And so
I started doing that research for myself entirely
selfishly. And then, you know, about six or eight
years in, in, I guess, yeah, about six years
in, I'm, you know, in my early thirties, and
I'm like, hey, having these powerful conversations
with other people, I'm leading these like group
coaching sessions with like 14 people. I worked
with like a hundred people over two and a half
years. And, and I was like, there's something
super powerful here, right? That, that apparently
no one else is talking about. And then I took
a break because it was mid pandemic, uh, you
know, in like 2021, 2022, I had rebranded my
business to the name Consonate, um, which is
essentially like Harmony by Design. Right. That's
what it means. It's a real word. It goes into
more than that. You should definitely look it
up. It's a really beautiful word. Yeah. And the
definition is really beautiful. Yeah. No, it's
really beautiful. I have my phone here. I could
look it up, but I won't bother. But I definitely
recommend that people look it up. I have the
definition on my website, I think, too. So, you
know, I rebrand, I write my company values. because
they were my values, right? And I start moving
towards speaking and consulting, because it was
always there, right? It was always wanting to
have these conversations and what I was learning
and how I was reconnecting to my humanity and
how it showed up in my leadership, right? Because
anything you want to do as a leader shows up
in our private life first. Yes, who we are as
a person is always reflected in our leadership.
Even if you try to hide it, it will leak out.
Yeah. And it'll leak out big time. when you're
least expecting it or least want it to, our insecurities,
all of it, they will become very present and
everyone around us will see them. And so I knew
I wanted to be the kind of person who could sit
with accountability, who could sit with what
does it mean to actually be curious about others,
especially for me as somebody who was raised
in a cult and struggled with needing and wanting
to be heard because I was never heard. I was
never valued. People actually did listen and
hear what I had to say, but then they would,
to my face, tell me it wasn't valuable, then
steal my ideas and implement them. Which happens
a lot with very narcissistic environments, right?
Yeah. And so I knew that what I had to say was
valuable. I just needed to find the people who
actually knew it to have value and who were going
to pay. right? And respect it and honor it and
pay me for my contribution, right? And I wish
we didn't have to pay each other for our contributions,
but we live in a capitalist world. We got to
survive somehow, right? Yeah. So, you know, that
ultimately was it led to my work. I didn't seek
to do what I am doing right now. It just made
the most sense. It was like you have now, you
know, when I made that change, I had nearly a
decade worth of research or a decade of research
because it's now been 14, 15 years. I had a decade
of research under my belt and had formed all
of these powerful ideas and knew that people
were connecting with them and had been told dozens
of times, no one's talking about leadership this
way. You need to get on stages. And I was like,
great, point me. point me in the direction, get
me on a stage, right? Yeah. And then that just,
you know, kind of snowballed into where we are
now. And I mean, I'm listening to you now and
this is the first time I heard you and it's very
engaging from, you know, how you tell the story
to the way that you tell your story. And, and
you talked about, you know, your insecurities
or who you truly are will begin to creep, you
know, show. And one of the things I'll talk about,
especially here as one of our principles, I guess
you could say is, is really work on you as a
as a human being, you know, those issues that
you may not be great at, just, you know, continue
to build yourself in those areas, because who
you are will seep out. And if you try to hide
all that crap, the crap will show at some point,
you know. And you talked about curiosity, and
I wanted to ask you in leadership, what is essential
for leaders to be constantly curious about, you
know, and respecting the, and you talk about
accountabilities. And so talk about that a little
bit. Yeah, absolutely. Some of the most successful
leaders of all time, long term, have been the
most curious people, right? They knew they didn't
know everything. They surrounded themselves with
people who knew things they didn't know and were
very smart in things that they had no knowledge
or understanding of. And we cannot and should
not try to know everything. It's impossible.
It's impossible. And it's ridiculous. It's a
ridiculous pursuit and it's a waste of your time.
Surround yourself with incredible people, but
surround yourself with incredible people who
will long -term know themselves to be safe, to
be seen, heard, understood, valued and cared
for. as a part of your life and or your organization,
you have to become the kind of person who's invested
in those things for yourself first. And there's
lots of societal messages that we have to confront
that has to come first, right? And the big switch
for me, was as a person and then translated into
my leadership that helped my curiosity was the
recognition that validation is not external.
I am valid and I am valuable simply because I
exist. No amount of productivity, no amount of
contribution, no amount of any of that determines
my worth or value. I exist separate from those
things. I exist without those things. And I am
valuable simply because I exist. Here on the
Thrivel journey, we talk a lot about not just
surviving, but thriving. And a big part of that
for me has been understanding my health on a
deeper level. That's why I partnered with Livegood
and brought it under my company, Orion's Health.
Not just because I believe in the products, but
because I've seen what they can do firsthand.
I've walked through some hard health chapters
in my life, including cancer, and a kidney transplant.
And I know what it feels like when your body's
working against you. That's why we're offering
two free tools that help me and can help you
too. First, go to MyFreeHealthReport .com for
slash Orion's Health. Take our quick health questionnaire
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Ryan Goodkin, Livegood's Director of Product
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I personally use and stand behind. This isn't
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Orion's Health to help people thrive and body,
mind and spirit. Of course, of course, always,
always, always consult your physician before
starting any new supplement or health regimen.
Your body is unique and your healthcare provider
should always be part of the conversation. The
links are in the show notes. Now tap in and take
your next step toward thriving. And then, then
when you enter the room, you enter in differently.
It's not, you're not entering the room with ego.
You're not entering the room to eclipse or dominate.
You're entering the room to be a part of. to
be a part of community, to be a part of we as
human beings are part of nature, to be a part
of the ecosystems that we are meant to exist
as a part of. It's healthy relationship. That's
what it is. It's an ecosystem of relationships.
An ecosystem of ideas, thoughts, exchanges. And
so for us as leaders, we have to be curious.
We have to be talking to people at every level
of our organization. We have to be talking to
people that we don't like. We have to be hiring
people who are perfectly capable who we don't
like. I'm not talking about hiring people who
are purposely going to try to destroy our organization
or destroy our culture. But if your culture is
not inclusive and if your culture doesn't make
space for a diverse array of human beings, you
are going to fail. And we know that in hard numbers,
right? So our curiosity is necessary to facilitate
the kind of environment where a diverse array
of human beings are seen, heard, understood,
valued, can bring their entire thriving selves
because we're contributing to their thriving.
So then they're contributing to ours, right?
And so it starts there. It has to be there, right?
And that's why I talk with leaders about relationship
first. We can't talk about anything else until
we talk about how you understand relationship
and you understand how to build the kind of relationships.
that will create the kind of culture that will
bring in the kind of people and foster the kind
of environment that drives creativity, innovation
and profitability. It has to start with relationship.
It has to start there. So yeah, we start with
curiosity and you look at CEOs like Or, you know,
leaders like Massimo Battura and his three Michelin
star restaurant. You look at organizations like
the ESOP out of Delaware that is Goran Associates.
You look at King Arthur Baking Company. You look
at Stewart's Shops, the guest and convenience
store station that's up in the Northeast. You
know, you look at the... the way that Pixar used
to run their organization. I'm not sure if their
leadership might've changed some things over
the last couple of years, because I think they've
been struggling a little bit, but you look at
their kind of old school philosophies, you look
at all these different organizations, how Campbell's
Soup, their last CEO transformed that organization.
You can look and see that curiosity was the bedrock
of it all. Of it all. Yeah. I love that. I mean,
I think just being curious about life. And then
you talked about it earlier. Just being curious
about life really takes takes you on a path of
just, I mean, just exploration. And I think that's
what we need. And can you share a specific example
from your work with ethical leadership? Yeah,
just at the yeah, leave it there. Yeah, yeah.
You know, I have different kinds of conversations
with different people. And one of the ones I've
been having more often is about neurodiversity,
about, and for those who don't know neurodiversity
is a classification for those of us who are diagnosed
with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia. And there's
a lot of conversations being had right now because
certain people are trying to invalidate our existence
or call us an epidemic of diagnoses, so on and
so forth, which by the way, it's not. It's just
that before 1984, people like myself could be
forcibly institutionalized, lobotomized and sterilized.
And so we had to hide our identity in order to
assimilate, in order to not have violent action
taken against us. And so I have conversations
that go back to curiosity with leaders who are
looking to bring about successful organizations.
And we talk about diversity as as a part of necessary
biodiversity, right? Because if we didn't have
neurological diversity, neurodiversity, if we
didn't have that and we didn't have biodiversity,
one virus, one harmful ideology could wipe out
the entire human species like that. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. So diversity is a necessary part of the
human species' perpetuation, survival and success,
right? And so when I look at it, I can see the
light in their eyes change, right? When I say
this to them, right? Because it also gives them
a powerful talk track for like their board, right?
And say that, it's like, oh shoot. And then I
followed up with the hard numbers, right? And
I look at them and I say, Citibank taught us,
they came out with a study that came out in 2020,
right? Citibank that said the US economy, still
currently one of the greatest economies in the
world, lost out on $16 trillion due to a lack
of diversity. Let's put trillion in a perspective
because a lot of times we have a hard time wrapping
ourselves around what a trillion actually is,
right? So a million seconds is about 12 days.
A billion seconds is about 32 years. Million,
billion. 12 days, 32 years, right? That's why
billionaires don't need to exist moving on. So
trillion, right? A trillion is 32 ,688 years.
That even just that blows up the scope right
there. And the US economy lost out on $16 trillion.
That's due to a lack of diversity. That's kind
of important now, especially with the assault
on what diversity is for us today. Yeah. And
a lot of people, falsely A, don't even know what
DEI stands for, diversity, equity, and inclusion,
right? And also don't understand its purpose
and believe the false narrative because they
don't know what it is. Maybe they weren't exposed
to so on and so forth. It's about giving somebody
who has no merit a job. And that's not it at
all. It's looking at everyone who has merit and
has the qualifications for that job and not being
legally allowed, which is already illegal anyway,
but not being legally allowed to, in fact, dismiss
somebody for their race, gender, intersectional
identity, whatever it is, right? And recognizing
that And by having DEI initiatives, creating
the kind of cultures that actually make it safe
for a diverse group of people to exist inside
of an organization. And I'm going to speak as
a white neurodivergent woman for just a second
and say, as a neurodivergent, white neurodivergent
woman, how I experienced adverse consequences
of being a neurodivergent person inside of an
organization because there was no giving a darn
about DEI, about the diverse group of people
that they were actually supposed to lead. Right?
I had a boss look me in the face and tell me
that he kept over $20 ,000 of my commission because
it was only my second year in sales. And that
even though I had worked 30 days straight as
a salaried worker, so no overtime, because he
abandoned me to respond to three RFPs. for the
government on my own. I worked incredible amounts
of hours. I had nearly killed myself. I was on
the brink of complete and total burnout. I was
getting sick all of the time because I could
analyze so much information and I could put out
so much information so quickly. I was unduly
burdened with the job of three different people
and it nearly killed me. And they stole my money
and told me to my face. I never got it in writing,
so it was hard for me to fight legally. But he
felt so confident and he told me to my face.
Now, had there been more accountability inside
of that organization, had there been proper understanding
of what leadership is, had there been initiatives
for a diverse group of people to be counseling
that leader, that CEO, it would have been much
harder for him to get away with saying those
things and doing those things. So we need to
understand that this is causing direct harm to
people, even if they are hired. They are being
harmed inside of organizations, when there isn't
training and understanding on the, the eclectic,
right, we can use that word that the diverse
reality that it is to be human. Right. Right.
In that space, you talk about not only curiosity,
but empathy. And I think in that space, that
probably would work. What do you mean by lead
with empathy? And how does that contribute to
building stronger teams? And it seems like if
that boss had some empathy, they wouldn't have
stole that money from you. Right. Well, I think
it also was insecurity problems, but it is what
it is, right? So I think empathy asks us to lead
with curiosity. And I can't divorce those two
things. I can't for the life of me figure out
how we're empathetic without curiosity. And I
can't figure out how we're curious, truly curious
without empathy. Because empathy requires us
to consider someone else's lived experience as
completely different than our own. And to recognize
that that experience is valuable and valid. And
we don't get a say in it. And to say, hey, I'm
going to sit with and make space for your lived
reality. Right? I'm not going to deny that you
exist. I'm not going to design your lived reality.
I'm not going to deny it. I'm going to make space
for you and your lived reality. And that's when
we can actually craft cultures where people are
safe. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Right? Like without
empathy, people are not safe. And we know it.
You can feel it in your bones. You can feel it
the minute you walk there. It's funny because
I'm not going to name the town. I live in South
Jersey. My sister happened to travel to a town
here in New Jersey. And she was like, have you
ever been to this town? I'm like, yeah. It's
funny how you can feel the reality of that town
as soon as you drive into it, right? She's like,
yeah. I was like, why don't you go look at some
demographics, right? And she was like, oh, Shoot.
Right? And so we can feel. culture, we can feel,
right? You can feel someone's presence, even
if your back is to the door when they walk into
a room, you can feel who people are. We have
powerful presence, we have powerful lived realities.
And together, when we honor that, we create the
kind of space where people aren't driving into
our town and knowing they're not safe, right?
We can create the kind of space where we're financially
thriving, right? And it's necessary, right? Like
empathy is necessary. Trying to understand the
lived experience of people outside of self is
necessary. And I like to break this down in hard
numbers for people to sit with, right? So the
United States, the population of the United States,
Americans only make up 4 .34 % of the global
population. Wow. I want us to sit with that,
right? Only 4 .34 % of the global population.
Number one, pin that. Number two, white people.
only make up between 7 and 16 percent, depending
on who's assessing and what you classify as white,
of the global population. That means 84 percent
of the global population is not white. We call
it 95 percent of the global population is not
American. And so when we take these two truths
and we sit with them, we recognize if we want
to compete in an ever globalized economy and
an ever globalized world, we cannot do so centering
our experience as either Americans or even more
specifically as white Americans. Right and set
CFOs of the biggest companies and countries and
companies in the world will tell you this That
they are not divesting from DEI because it would
mean catastrophic things for their organizations.
They're just renaming them Because they can't
they can't it would literally mean the destruction
of their organizations. Yeah And so when we can
sit with that reality we can recognize that there
are so many other realities that we need to be
considering in our everyday life, if we actually
want to create the kind of world where we all
are seen, heard, understood, valued, and cared
for, there's more than enough for everyone. For
that reality to be true for everyone, there's
more than enough. We just have to sit behind
the, you know, creating organizations and cultures
and, you know, our society in a way that honors
that. It honors that everyone is contributing
and we all succeed when we succeed together.
I like when you stated those facts as truths,
right? It's not something that can be, it's not
an opinion. Nope. Google it. If you don't believe
me, Google it. The great Googler. These are truths,
these are facts. And the way that you just shared
that, when somebody's sitting down, actually
sitting with that. there could be just a revelation
of who they are in this world. And you speak
about, in the world of community, you speak about
a community and leadership. How do you define
community in the context of business and leadership?
Yeah. So I define community as a human manifestation
of an ecosystem, as the human version of an ecosystem,
right? Because again, humans, we are nature.
Shocking. I know we never really sit with that.
We never ever consider that we spend all of our
time trying to separate ourselves from it. But
we are nature and we only live because of all
of other all of the rest of nature also living.
So when it comes to our leadership, we have to
recognize that we are meant to be fostering an
ecosystem. Now my favorite definition of an ecosystem
The only one I ever use is the one from National
Geographic. Of course, they nailed it, right?
So they define an ecosystem as a geographic area
where plants, animals and other organisms, as
well as weather and landscape work together to
form a bubble of life. I love that part. A bubble
of life. Isn't that the whole freaking goal?
a leader inside of an organization, don't we
want our people operating from a place of life,
of our organization feeling like a bubble of
life? Don't we know that innovation, creativity,
innovation and profitability will be a given
inside of that type of culture, inside of that
kind of organization, inside of that kind of
community? Right, right. Yes, it will be. We
know that it is because we look at the organizations
who are doing that and they are tremendously
successful. Right with low turnover rates. I
mean they can't get rid of people right like
And because turnover, by the way, for those of
you don't know, is extraordinarily expensive.
Extraordinarily expensive for organizations,
right? That investment is walked out the door
and now you've got to pay to train a whole other
person. You've got a slow time, a six month time
before they're really acclimated and kind of
up and running. So you've got undue burden on
other people who are likely to burn out and also
leave. It's a cascading, tremendous problem.
So if we foster organizations with bubbles of
life, that stops being such a problem, right?
And innovation and profitability are just built
in because people are bringing their whole thriving
selves, right? So when I'm talking to leaders,
whether it be on a stage or it be one -on -one,
we're talking about that. This is not about control.
This is not about you knowing everything. No
one cares about those things. It's what do you
empower? What do you facilitate? What do you
empower to be created? How do you empower your
people? How do you support your people? Just
like the land and the weather, which I propose
is like the land is like leadership and the weather
is like culture, right? Inside of that ecosystem,
just like the land and the weather support us
in real life. that's how leadership needs to
show up inside of our organizations, consistently
contributing to our people's thriving. I love
that. First of all, I was okay, bubble of life.
I was, I was like, when I was ready, I was like,
what is the bubble of life? I mean, you kind
of explain that here. But just when just that
term by itself is very powerful, you know, so
good. When I read it, I was like, damn, National
Geographic for the win. I'm totally Bubble of
life. I love that and You're talking about fostering
fostering I've had it but Basically fostering
the ecosystem fostering the ecosystem. Thank
you. Yeah, what are What are some typical practical
ways to actually foster the collaboration within
it within the ecosystem and innovation in that
kind of environment value, dissent, and failure.
Value, dissent, and failure. I just needed to
let it sit there for a minute. I had to receive
it first. I know. If we cannot, okay, if you
look at Michael Jordan, right? Michael Jordan
not picked for his high school basketball. We
all know that, right? Mm -hmm. Then he got down
to business. He got down to the fundamentals,
which in my line of work is curiosity, respect,
and accountability. But in his line of work,
it's free throws. It's shooting the ball. It's
playing horse, whatever, right? It's getting
the shots up. It's practicing the moves. It's
all the basics. You know a great player because
they constantly pay attention to the basics,
the fundamentals, right? That's how he became
a great player. That's how he became one of the
greatest players. I'm not going to argue whether
or not he's the greatest or not. That's not what
we're here for, right? One of the greatest players
of all time, right? In any sport. We're just
going to open up and say of any sport, right?
It's arguably so, yes. Arguably. Yes. Right?
And so when we can understand that, right? That
failure, he failed over and over and over again,
but he pivoted quite literally. In real life,
he pivoted with his body, but he also pivoted
in reality. Every time he came up against a roadblock,
he pivoted. He learned more. He got back down
to basics and he, and he learned the fundamentals
of the game in a way that he could put anything
together because it lived and breathed inside
of him. Right. When we want to be a great leader
and we want to foster powerful organizations.
We have to practice curiosity, respect and accountability.
Like our life depends on it and our organization
depends on it because it does. Because it does.
And so we have to value dissent and failure because
they are a natural part of what it is to be alive
and to be human. And if we aren't, then we aren't
valuing curiosity. We're valuing perfectionism,
which is unattainable and inhumane fundamentally
as a concept. Yeah, because it's unattainable.
It is unattainable. And I think we're always
I think it's important to get the concept is
always pushing for perfection. Oh, but being
great for greatness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah,
being perfect is just because how many innovations
happened by accident. How many times have you
learned somebody was actually trying to create
something else and accidentally created post
-its, accidentally created rubber, accidentally
created, you know, this, that, and the other
thing. So many innovations have come from accidents
where people were given the space and time and
boredom. Access to boredom. One of our most powerful
tools as human beings when it comes to innovation,
given access to boredom so that in fact, they
could see the thing that was right in front of
their damn face and was a super profitable innovation.
Right? Had they been required to clean up their
area efficiently all the time, right? I'm not
saying that we don't work for efficiency. I'm
not saying that we, but we do not put those things
as first. Those are just... part of, right? Yes,
we need to build inefficiency. We need to make
sure that we're doing things well. But we also
need to make sure that we're making space for
people's humanity and their creativity and their
innovation, because it's in those moments when
things are flawed that we actually discover incredible
things. Yeah. Within the flaws, we discover incredible
things. I guess the through line of what we're
talking about here is that Business is important.
And you know, it helps, you know, run the world
and all that kind of good stuff. But who you're
who you're who you're being as a human being
really gives way to how that organization will
be run or how it will be built or how it will
thrive or not. And I think it's important. What
we're saying here is to really work on yourself
as a human being in different areas, so that
whatever you who you are, whoever you are, You
can bring that to your business. Yeah. And you'll
find your way as a leader and as an organization.
You'll find your way much easier when you lean
into who you are and empower your people to do
the same. Empower your people to do the same.
And for the new entrepreneurs, what's the most
important lesson you've learned about leading
with intention? The pivot. The pivot. I know
that. Yeah, right? Don't we all? You've been
in business long enough. I've been in business
for myself since 2016, coming up on 10 years.
Given new information, I will always change my
mind. Given new information. I did. I didn't
go to school for this. I didn't go to school
to be a speaker. I went to school to be an interior
designer. That's a whole conversation unto itself
because I had to pick something that was gender
appropriate. It's not really what I wanted to
go to school for. But I wanted to be a lawyer,
but that's a whole other thing, right? But, you
know, I figured out that, you know, I could spend
a decade researching these things and I could
look at scholarly work and I could in fact have
a very powerful and informed opinion based on
my lived experience inside of the opposite of
these things and be able to bring a powerful
perspective to the world. I pivoted my way right
into being a public speaker accidentally and
then on purpose. right? At first it was like
kind of accidental, right? And then it became
definitely on purpose. And honestly, I'm so glad
I'm not in interior design anymore because it's
very dependent on the economy, right? Not everything
is, but in a way that just was not great for
my mental health. And so, I pivoted my way here.
Right. And I pivoted my way through my career
and the transition between the two, I didn't
just one day go to bed as an interior designer
and the next day wake up as a public speaker.
You have to bring your audience along with you.
You have to, you know, there's so many steps
inside of there. It's not an overnight thing.
And I think that's really, that's really the
reality is if you're becoming an entrepreneur,
because you expect or want to be an overnight
success, you will not be prepared for the number
of pivots that it's going to take for you to
actually be successful. A hundred percent agree.
Yeah, you I gave some space to that for a minute
You you talked about how at first it was accidental
right and then it was on purpose. Yeah What do
you mean by that? What does that look like and
I get the picture of it for myself I know for
anybody that probably going through it and they
yeah in that space Yeah, what does that look
like for them or what? For me, it was like, what
in the world am I doing? And how exactly do I
do this? And if you aren't networking, by the
way, as an entrepreneur, or if you're considering
starting a business, you have to be networking.
When people say your net worth is dependent on
your net work, I am telling you there is no truer
thing that has ever been spoken. And you are
going to need support in ways you don't even
know how to conceptualize in this moment. And
so network, but for me, it looked like. Having
to pivot who I was networking with and how I
was networking the kinds of people I was connecting
to and spending time with getting myself around
other speakers Being vulnerable enough to ask
and curious enough right vulnerable and overt
vulnerability and curiosity our best friends
To ask the kinds of questions to help fill in
the gaps of knowledge Studying other speakers
making sure I'm getting to spaces and really
paying attention to how do they structure what
they're talking about? So on and so forth and
then practice your craft just like a comedian
goes to every bargain basement place they can
get every community center, every retirement
home, every whatever, right? And they're practicing
their craft, trying to form their type 10. You
need to do the same in your business. For me,
as a speaker, it was getting on podcasts. It
was, I shared with you earlier, I've been on
more than 130 podcasts worldwide, right? You
look for every opportunity to speak and you be
intentional about that. And if you're starting
a business, by the way, you should be speaking.
And it doesn't matter what feels safe to write
to you, whether or not that's getting as part
of a Toastmasters club so you can get comfortable
with speaking or you go and join a comedy troupe
and you're doing improv and you're practicing
that way or you're just getting in front of people
if you feel comfortable and getting feedback.
Always be curious and ask for critical feedback.
Critical means they're going to tell you what
you've messed up. Yeah, I know you're gonna say,
but you gotta know you gotta know right? I've
never been so PG in my life. Um, you don't I
try not to curse too much because I'm like, people
are gonna be like, what is wrong with her? Um,
but but you know, I, I just practice my craft.
And I did so recognizing I was gonna mess up.
And I had to mess up to be good. Yeah. And that's
it. You have to be willing to mess up to be good.
And you know what, that's a really good point.
I think that little capsule will allow someone
to just continue to move forward in whatever
it is because the fear may be there, but you're
gonna mess up anyway, you know? And you might
as well just take it on and just... Just be the
best you can be as prepared as you can be gather
as much information as you can and move forward
with the information you have, and you're going
to figure out where your blind spots are. It's
going to become obvious, it's gonna be super
obvious at first. And as you go along, it might
become less obvious, you might have to ask for
critical feedback, right? I do, I still do all
the time, because I want to know, right? It doesn't
mean I have to take it on as gospel, but it's
helpful information. Right? So like, you know,
That's the other thing. Don't take it too personally.
It is super personal, but don't take it too personally.
Take it as information. It's data. Just flow.
Just flow. When you started your business, I
have this question here. When you started your
business, what steps did you take to ensure it
was built on strong foundation of ethical leadership
and community? And I asked a question just so
that people who are listening and watching that
they get to get that information and utilize
it for themselves. My hair's starting to look
like Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius. So what I did
was spend two years researching. I looked at
all kinds of organizations that I was aware of
that I wasn't aware of. I read the book, Francesca
Gino wrote the book Rebel Talent. And she mentions
a lot of organizations inside of that book and
has a lot of different case studies. And I used
that as a springing off point to do some digger,
deeper digging on those organizations and find
what information I could from them directly.
A lot of the founders have written books or you
can see what the people who've worked for them,
podcasts they've been on, so on and so forth.
You can get a lot of information. We live in
the information age. Google it. You know what
I mean? And you'll find out the good, the bad,
and the ugly. And I wrote and I spent two years
when I rebranded my business and wrote my values.
My values are public. They're on my website.
You look at them right now. And that's on purpose
to hold myself accountable for other people to
be able to hold me accountable and for people
to know if you're working with me, this is the
premise we agree on. Right. And that's powerful
and that's important. And so I did that first
because I knew that culture starts with one.
It starts with me, right? I am the business at
this moment, right? I have people that come in
and contract with me and support me so on and
so forth. But I'm the business. I'm the face.
I'm the voice. I'm the everything. Well, what
am I trying to bring with me? Because we bring
culture with us everywhere we go. We bring who
we are. Our presence comes with us. So what presence
am I bringing with me? What shows up when I show
up? Yeah. Ask yourself that question. What shows
up when you show up? And if you don't know how
to answer it, ask the people around you and be
willing to hear some uncomfortable feedback.
Yeah, that's important. Right? You have to be
willing to hear that because you're never going
to be great until you're willing to have that
feedback. Every, every most famous athlete in
the world has a hundred thousand coaches around
them. Like they hire people to coach them and
support them privately, personally, right? To
strengthen conditioning coaches. They've got
people with team, they've got people personally,
they've got, you know, people who help them with
their, their, their, the psychology of the game,
their own psychology, all of it, right? They
are supported. by a ton of different people who
are telling them what the flaws in their game
are. And you need people around you who you trust
and know to be able to tell you what are the
flaws in your game so that you can in fact become
the Michael Jordan of your industry, right? You
can't be that if you aren't willing to take critical
feedback. It will never happen. You'll fall flat
on your face and you'll never get up because
you're going to fall flat on your face either
way. Well, one way you get up, the other way
you're just left there. One way you get up because
people are there to help pull you up and help
pick you up and help dust you off and help you
reorient yourself so you know what direction
to go, right? There's people who are going to
show up for you when you most need them. So make
sure you're networking. Make sure you're spending
time finding the kind of people who are building
the kind of organizations, no matter the industry,
that you want to build yours like. Very good
information. That's very good. You've shared
so much from, you know, where you started, you
know, being in the space you were in, going through
your life and where you are now. What is your
testament to who you are today? You know, that's
a really good question. I didn't give up. And
that sounds trite, and maybe it is, but I got
it wrong so many times. I was loud and wrong
for a very long time. Loud and wrong. Yeah. I
grew up in a cult, right? I didn't know how much
indoctrination existed inside of me. I just knew
how to argue. I didn't know whether or not, I
didn't know how to argue from a place of truth
or accuracy or research, right? And I had to
teach myself those things, the necessity and
the importance of truth. and science and on all
of those things and leaning on experts in the
field, right? And recognizing that being loud
and wrong isn't really powerful and you know
it because you're coming from a place of ego.
When you are actually no longer looking for external
validation, you no longer need people to agree
with your beliefs in order for them to be true
for you. When you no longer need others' approval,
in order to decide whether you're doing the right
thing, and you can sit present with your own
self and your own reality and your own beliefs,
and you can know them to be true, then you truly
become powerful. Because then you can show up
as yourself, rather than who somebody wants you
to be. Right? Right? Right. That's important
right there. showing up as your authentic self
and not some mirage or pretend person that someone
thinks you are or who they want you to be. It's
not about like rebellion. I don't believe rebellion
is true. No one has authority over me that I
don't give them. So there's no such thing as
rebellion. I'm not rebelling against society
because society doesn't have power over me that
I don't give it. Well said. Culture doesn't have
power over me. I don't give it. When you stand
in your own power, you do not give your power
away. You stand in it. Right? And when you stand
in your own power, you cannot be moved. Right?
It doesn't mean you can't be changed. It doesn't
mean you don't change and learn. But when you
are standing in your truth, you cannot be moved
from that truth. And so it's about and. It's
about nuance. It's about being powerful inside
of ourselves and knowing how powerful that is.
And then you can change the damn world because
you changed yourself. Coming into your own. Right.
You can't change anything but yourself, but you
can change the world as yourself. That's pretty
great. That's pretty great. That's pretty great.
What is your talk about your business a little
bit? What is your business? Whatever. I forgot
about that something. I am my business. So like
I just, you know, Um, I consult, I speak, I conduct,
you know, and I believe in giving people access
depending on where they are as a, as a solepreneur,
as a small business owner, so on and so forth.
So I'm getting ready to add some more dates to
my virtual workshops that are available through
my website at a really reasonable price point.
Um, I don't even remember what it is, but I think
it's like 65 or 55 or $65 for most of them and
they're hour long workshops. you know, to give
people access, right? Because when organizations
hire me, we're talking thousands, right? So like
if a sole entrepreneur wants access to the same
information, I condense it down. We do a virtual
workshop. I still want people to have access
to the information. So I have my virtual workshops.
I have my workshops that I do in person, keynotes
and consulting. And usually it's kind of like
people bring me in to do a workshop and then
they hear what I have to say and they're like,
so let's work together. And I'm like, let's do
it. So yeah, you know, there's all different
price points and I work with nonprofits and so
on and so forth. So, you know, as much as I would
love everybody to pay me what I wish they were
paying me, there's always like, you know, flexibility
and negotiation that goes on in place. And I
give this advice because of other entrepreneurs
here. You don't have to do something for free.
Someone might not be paying you money, but that
doesn't mean it doesn't cost them something.
I'm not talking about sticking it to them. I'm
talking about the fact that my Anytime somebody
negotiates their price with me, my price with
me, number one, I do not offer them anything
extra because people are going to ask for that.
Don't do it. I'm looking directly in the camera
when I say, don't do it. And if somebody's giving
you those vibes, run. Go the other way. Run.
They will drag you for everything you're worth
and you will be dissuaded from, and I get when
you have to do what you have to do to survive.
So caveat right but like run Okay, but when it
comes to people negotiating your price like for
me as a speaker, okay, you can't afford to pay
me Well, I'm gonna ask that you share a 500 to
a thousand word article that I've written both
internally and with your external listserv That
means my name and face and my words are getting
in front of possibly thousands or tens of thousand
people depending on the size of the organization,
right then I'm saying, hey, can you give me a
meaningful introduction within 30 days of me
speaking? Then I'm asking, you know, can you
give me a Google review? I'll send you the link,
right? You know, can you let me record myself,
right? And be able to use your name in my marketing,
so on and so forth. There are things that you
can ask or think about that for yourself. And
I talked that through with a friend of mine who's
an entrepreneur and a speaker. And she and I
came up, you know, she told me about three of
those things and I added the whole article thing.
Right? So have conversations with other people.
Figure out how you can get, take advantage of
marketing with piggybacking on their marketing
efforts that already exist. You're going to do
the work for them and don't write the article
with flipping chat GPT. Don't do that. You have
to write it. It has to be from your voice because
it's your voice that people are buying, not anything
else. I've never written a single thing with
chat GPT ever. Don't even let it edit my stuff
because I'm just like horrified by whatever the
hell it does. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't
seem to help at all. Grammarly, yes. Chachi BT,
no. So you can do things that bring value to
you that won't cost the organization anything.
So don't ever do anything quote unquote for free.
Make sure they're contributing and bringing value
to that exchange. It's an energy exchange. Make
sure it is an actual exchange. Otherwise, you
will die on the vine. Especially those free things,
you can really take advantage of them. I spoke
at an event last year. I still do free things.
I got three paid speaking engagements from it.
I didn't even have to approach them. They didn't
even approach me after I spoke. They reached
out to me. They emailed me. And within six months,
I had three other paid speaking engagements.
So make sure if you're doing free things, doing
them with people who value you and who want to
see you succeed and who are 100 % in on doing
whatever they can to help you succeed. Okay,
that's really good. I was going to ask you our
last question. I'll try to answer really short.
You know, it's okay, because I think it's, you
know, it's fine. It's fine. We normally get,
you know, we give it an hour and a half for,
you know, the conversation. But I think you really
answered the question. So I don't even have to
ask anymore. Because you pretty much answered
the question. I'll ask this then. What's one
big thing or story or anything that you have
on your heart that you would like to share with
somebody who's listening. We're in a time when
people are not grounded. People feel ungrounded,
unanchored. And there are people who are taking
advantage of that and who are taking advantage
of your exhaustion. Anytime somebody is presenting
something to you that requires you to dehumanize
or think less of someone else, you should be
rejecting that ideology immediately and getting
curious. And I want you then to imagine a world
where I need us to spend time imagining. what
we want the world to look like. And activists
will ask us to do this. Imagine it as if you
have no idea who you will be in that world. Rich,
poor, white, black, brown, indigenous, part of
the LGBTQ community, whatever it is. Imagine
you had no say in who you are and spend time
caring about what that looks like and intentionally
imagining that because we can't build what we
can't imagine. Right? And if you need resources
and you want articles that help you to imagine
that world, or so on and so forth, I recommend
you read two books, What If We Get It Right by
Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, and you read The Some
of Us by Heather McGee. And then you look at
scholarly work that focuses on intersectionality,
on Kimberle Crenshaw's concept of intersectionality,
because we as human beings are never just one
thing. And anytime somebody is trying to reduce
us to one thing or invalidate someone's lived
experience, for example, There's a conversation
around what it is to be trans and that it's not
real. But if you Google it, there's not just
XX and XY as humans, right? It's XXY and XYY
and XO. There's 2 % of the population, same as
our redheads, that are intersex, neither biologically
male or female. There's an entire group of people
in the Dominican Republic and in South America
called Cuevidoses and are born with female presenting
genitalia and then at puberty, their genitalia
changes. There is an entire biological reality
that we are unaware of and people take advantage
of that in order to invalidate the existence
of other human beings. And anytime we buy into
that, the harm, the othering of someone else,
the invalidation of someone else, we are harming
ourselves as well, whether we realize it or not.
And Heather McGee points that out very clearly
in The Sum of Us. It brings hard numbers to the
conversation about what racism costs us as a
nation. And I think we need to be focused on
that. And Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, she interviews
everyone from community activists to astrophysicists
to farmers and journalists on what we can and
could be doing, what we're already doing in small
ways, but could be applied more broadly that
would stop and reverse global warming. And we'd
be able to do it in a profitable way. It is actually
profitable, more profitable than big oil. Right?
And so I need us to lean into these things and
get curious. because it quite literally will
be what saves us. Curiosity, not, not loud mediocrity.
We have to be, we have to be curious and we have
to be respectful and we have to be accountable.
I'm begging us. Like from the bottom of my heart,
it will change your life. It changed mine. Well
said. Um, we'll leave it there. Shannon, how
does how does how do we get in touch with you?
Good question. I'm sure it'll be tagged in the
show notes. But you can reach me at www dot consonant
dot world. That's key dot world not calm. You're
going to be tempted to be like dot world .com.
That's not real. Just that world. Consonate .world.
And my contact information is there. There's
some videos on what I mean by curiosity, respect,
and accountability. There's my company values.
My personal values are there. The story about
how I found the name of Consonate, which I think
is interesting, so on and so forth. There's lots
of information there, my speaker sheet. So everything
you need is there. It's right there. Oh, articles
I've written, podcasts I've been on. Okay. And
it's all there. It's all there. It's been a tremendous
conversation with you. Very enlightening and
enriching to not only to the mind, but also to
the soul. So I just want to say thank you. Thanks
for having me. This was great. This was great.
I love when I have these great conversations.
It's so fulfilling and wonderful. So thank you
for being here, being who you are, not only for
yourself and your community, but for the world.
And it does make a difference. So thank you.
And the question of the day to all you listeners
and watchers, to all the entrepreneurs out there,
what is the most important quality you think
a leader should have to build a thriving community.
Go ahead and drop those thoughts in the comments
below. And as we always say, let's make thriving
our new normal. And we'll see you next time.
Before you go, I just want to say thank you.
Thank you for being a part of the Thrive Bull
journey. Every time you show up here, you're
choosing growth, clarity, and the deeper work
of becoming who you're meant to be in this world.
And if you're ready to reconnect with what truly
lights you up, I created something powerful that
can help you. It's called the Empowered Path.
Seven days to reclaim your purpose and passion.
It's a beautifully designed guided workbook that
walks you through a week of powerful prompts,
clarity building tools, and real mindset shifts.
Now you can get instant access to it today. It's
a small investment for a huge return. Your energy,
your clarity, your alignment. And if you want
to take it deeper, check this out. I'm offering
a limited number of free 30 minute purpose coaching
sessions. No pressure, no pitch, just space for
you to reconnect with your direction, your gifts,
and what's next. So you can grab the guide and
book your session at the link in the show notes.
Let's not just go through the motions. Let's
really walk this path on purpose. I appreciate
you. And like we always say, let's make thriving
our new normal. And I'll talk to you soon.