I didn't really know what I was gonna do with
my life. It just didn't feel like I was gonna
have a very bright future. So in high school,
I decided pretty early on that I wasn't gonna
go to college. It just didn't know what I wanted
to do with my life. It didn't make sense to pay
somebody thousands of dollars to help me try
to figure it out. So I'll just, I'll go out on
my own and I'll figure it out. What struggles
did you feel like you gave up when when things
kind of turned for you? What struggles that I
give up in terms of like not having them anymore
not having them yet. Oh, man One I think one
was I gave up the not all of it, but a big piece
of the fear of judgment mm -hmm that was I had
I had become accustomed to a certain level of
Lifestyle, but not even that a certain level
of reputation that I was afraid to lose I would
say listen to the voice that's trying to extend
you not to contract you So I think all resilience
in general is pushing through pain discomfort
and uncertainty Mm -hmm mental resilience is
pushing through mental pain mental discomfort
and mental uncertainty. It's the same thing.
It's the same You have to put yourself in places
where you don't know if you can hang to a constructive
amount. How can entrepreneurs start building
impact today, even if they have no audience or
no capital or little experience? You're not going
to like the answer if you're out there and you're
an entrepreneur. It's going to be opposite to
what most people are telling you. What if the
darkest moment of your life was the doorway to
everything you were meant to become? From rock
bottom to building a global mission rooted in
purpose, today's guests turned pain into power
and never looked back. This is the journey of
Kevin Palmieri. Hey family, this is the Throg
Word Journey. Look. Life's too short to just
get by. And 2025 is the year to persist. We're
here to grow, build, and thrive. This podcast
is all about powerful stories, real talk, and
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So you never miss an episode and as we always
say Let's make thriving our new norm What if
the moment you wanted to end your life was actually
the beginning of your greatest purpose. On today's
episode of The Thravo Journey, we're sitting
down with Kevin Plamary. He's the co -founder
of Next Level University, a global top 100 self
-improvement podcast with over 2 ,000 episodes
and millions of listeners worldwide. And so after
hitting rock bottom and nearly ending it all,
Kevin made some radical choices, you know, like
to live with purpose, build with heart and hustle.
without BS, right? So now he's a seven figure
entrepreneur and transformational speaker. He's
here to share how pain, purpose, and consistency
can change everything. So this one's for every
dreamer, striver, and soul that's searching for
your next level. So let's go and let's get into
it with Kevin. Kevin, nice to have you here,
man. Michael, I appreciate you having me. Thank
you for the wonderful introduction. Hopefully
I can live up to a percentage of it. That's the
goal. You will. And I know we talked about your
partner, Alan Lazarus, and he was on, and if
he's a preamble to the next stage, you, I think
it's going to be a great conversation. I hope
so. I look forward to it very much. Yeah. So
before we get into it, I always like to know
what's on your mind or your heart that you've
been kind of thinking about, what's been percolating
your thoughts that you want to share. with the
world. Yeah. I feel like if you are an entrepreneur,
if you are a dream chaser, if you are a business
owner, your mental health should probably be
as much, if not more of a focus than anything
else. Yeah. That I've, it has just been a heavy
season of growth and with growth comes feedback
and with feedback comes shame and triggers and
fight, flight, freeze, fawn. So I'm in this deep
understanding that entrepreneurship is, it's
great and there's so much opportunity, but it
is, I mean, it's going to do stuff to you that
you might not be prepared for yet. Yeah. There's
a huge level of growth, um, uncomfortability
and some soul checking and searching in that,
in that journey. Yeah. Yeah, and before we actually
get to where you are now, I want to kind of go
back to kind of like your origin story, right?
You talked about how you you found rock bottom,
but that rock bottom had a basement. And that's,
I found that very interesting, because many people,
and I'll put myself in there found a rock bottom,
right? And Sometimes that rock bottom has a basement.
So you go you go even lower. Can you talk about
that? Of course. Yeah, yeah. So just for context,
was raised by my mom and my grandmother. Didn't
know my dad didn't meet my dad with the understanding
that he was my dad until I was 27. So grew up
lower middle class did not have a lot of money.
It didn't seem like I had a lot of options. I
didn't have a lot of guidance. I didn't really
know what I was going to do with my life. I It
just didn't feel like I was going to have a very
bright future. So in high school, I decided pretty
early on that I wasn't going to go to college.
It just didn't know what I wanted to do with
my life. It didn't make sense to pay somebody
thousands of dollars to help me try to figure
it out. So I'll just I'll go out on my own and
I'll figure it out. Yeah. So I got a job at the
local gas station. That was my first big boy
job I ever had. And then from there, Michael,
I just went on a journey of just job hopping.
So gas station attendant, I was a personal trainer,
truck driver, forklift operator, cleaned bathrooms
and floors at a hospital overnight. I did tiling.
I did construction. I did HVAC. I did a bunch
of stuff. You're hustling. I was hustling. I
was hustling. And I think a lot of it was because
I just never thought I was going to be successful.
So I was always looking for the next thing that
might make me more successful. Eventually, I
got a job in an industry called weatherization.
All that means is you go into buildings and it's
your job to make them more energy efficient.
So you're working in attics, windows, doors,
that type of stuff. Okay. I went from making
$15 an hour as a construction laborer to $50
an hour on my first job with this company. In
my mind, Michael, I made it. Here we go. You
probably like I hit it. That was it. It was like
Oh my goodness, all of the suffering and all
of the sacrifice and all of the sleepless nights
and limiting beliefs have led me to this. This
is the new chapter. I'm going to be successful
now. So fast forward a couple of years. I still
have this job. I have a girlfriend who's a model.
I have a brand new apartment. I'm living with
her getting ready to compete in a bodybuilding
show. So I'm quite literally in the best shape
I will ever be. And I went on to win my class
for that bodybuilding show. Nice, nice car, great
friends, all the stuff you could ever want. One
day, she sits me down after my bodybuilding show.
And she says, I'm leaving. Oh, you're depressed,
you're anxious, you aren't nearly as supportive
of my goals and dreams as I need someone to be.
And I'm going to go do my thing. I'm gonna go
chase my dreams. And she was right. She was right
with saying all that. Yeah, the thing that really,
for me was rock bottom was she said, I'm telling
you this, not because I want to hurt you, but
because I want you to know, I was going to leave
you a month ago, but I thought you might kill
yourself. Oh, and I remember thinking, Oh, my
God, how did we get here? How did we get here?
I felt like I was fine. Yeah. So that was my
initial rock bottom. Then work got slow. I had
an eating disorder from my bodybuilding show.
So now I'm kind of like broke again, and my hormones
are all messed up and I have an eating disorder.
It's like, what is happening here? How did we
get even further? How do we continue to go down?
I fell into the trap that I think a lot of people
fall into. I said, Well, I just got to go make
a boatload of money and then all these problems
will just dissolve. So the next year I got a
promotion at my job. I proceeded to spend the
next 10 months living on the road because all
of our contracts were in other states. Get to
the end of the year. And I remember I opened
up my final pay stub of the year and I made $100
,000 at 26 with no college degree. And this was
2017. $100 ,000 went a lot further in 2017. That
was actually good. That was really good money
back then. Today won't go too far. Yeah, it doesn't
go as far today, unfortunately. But I remember
thinking to myself after I opened up my pay stub,
I don't feel any different internally. I'm still
insecure. I'm still self conscious. I'm still
depressed. I'm still anxious. I feel like I've
lived most of my life, unconsciously. The opposite
of unconscious is hyper conscious. So I did what
any young man would do. I started a podcast called
hyper conscious podcast. That was the next logical
step. It made sense. So I did that. fell in love
with podcasting. As I started to loathe my job.
The reason I liked my job is because I liked
the money. I did not like what I was doing. I
didn't like traveling. I wasn't passionate about
it. I didn't find purpose in it. Yeah. So I start
calling out of work. I start leaving the job
sites early showing up late. Every time I would
be packing my bag to leave for the week, I would
be depressed and anxious and homesick and it
just It kept getting worse Rock bottom basement
moment. I woke up in a hotel room getting ready
for work one morning Alarm clock went off. I
sat up slid to the edge of the bed and the best
way to explain it Michael is there's ten televisions
on in my head at the same time and Every single
one is on a different station. Mmm You're stuck
here forever You got lucky remember things were
trending down and then you got this opportunity.
Do not mess this up Do not mess this up. Yeah
If you ever left, what would your friends say?
You make more money than any of your friends.
A lot of significance there. What would your
family say? You make more money than anybody
in your family and your family is super proud
of you. And do you really think this podcast
thing is gonna pan out? That's where we're gonna
go. And it was in that moment where I thought
to myself, well, if I was just to take my life,
I would take all my problems with me. And that
was the rock bottom basement. There is really
nowhere lower to go from there. Yeah, luckily.
I reached out to Alan and Alan gave me some really
good advice and some support and some perspective
and I saw the light at the end of the tunnel
at the job. I stayed there for I don't know two
or three more months and then I ended up leaving
and then him and I partnered up and we've been
doing this full time since 2018. That's where
you guys connected Lex next level you and all
that came up before that. What was the thing
that because there are many people that go through
that basement of rock bottom right where they
feel like they they have nothing to live for
but the 10 TVs on and the head and all that different
stations and there's no clarity there right you
had a you had your boy Alan who reached out to
you or you reach out to him and he was there
for you uh what would you say to say to say to
somebody that's in that space right now that's
listening and like and they won't reach out to
somebody because not everybody does that This
is always the part I have a lot of trouble with
because the analogy I always use is you have
to build the umbrella long before the storm.
It's really hard to be in the storm and then
imagine building an umbrella. So I would give
two pieces. One piece I would give is if right
now life is going great, be vulnerable with the
people around you because you never know if they're
going to need you and you never know if you're
going to need them. That's one. The second one
is, if you haven't built the umbrellas yet, and
you're in that moment, who is out there that
you feel like might just listen? Who is out there
that you feel won't judge you? Maybe they don't
have advice necessarily, but maybe they are a
shoulder that you can lean on momentarily to
get your bearings and to get new perspective.
I think that's a piece of it. And I think the
other piece of it is so much of what I was dealing
with in that moment was just it was emotions.
A lot of it wasn't logical. Yeah. If I would
have maybe tried to sit on it and think about
it and sleep on it for a day, I'm sure a lot
of those feelings might have subsided. But to
your point, unfortunately, I think we get to
a place where it seems like it's real and it
seems like there's no other answers. All of that
and this is always something I say because this
changed my perspective on that forever We interviewed
somebody one time named Kevin Hines Kevin is
one of the rare People who jumped off the Golden
Gate Bridge and survived well Yeah, that's why
perspective perspective He jumped off the Golden
Gate Bridge with the intention of taking his
life He said the second my foot left the railing.
I regretted it You know, I'm willing to bet Unfortunately
or yeah, unfortunately, that's what many people
feel but most people aren't able to tell us that
mm -hmm I always share that with the fact that
this person felt that way He did the thing that
he thought he was Needing to do and he regretted
it. I Feel like they probably would have been
the same for me. I would have regretted it too,
right? I would have regretted it and I think
most people do so I share that as perspective,
as I don't necessarily have a great answer, but
I do think perspective is helpful. Yeah, perspective
does initiate, it initiates change. And, and
everything really, I just can't imagine, wow,
like jumping off a bridge, that moment regretted
it, and then actually being able to tell the
story afterwards. It was one of the most proud
profound things I've ever heard in my entire
life. Yeah, I can't imagine I'm I've been across
that bridge and it's it's huge. You know what
I mean? And I'm good with you know, driving on
it and that understandable same same same. When
you had that turning point though, like what
was the what struggles did you feel like you
gave up when when things kind of turned for you?
What struggles that I give up in terms of like
not having them anymore and not having them.
Yeah. Oh, man One I think one was I gave up the
not all of it, but a big piece of the fear of
judgment mm -hmm that was I had I had become
accustomed to a certain level of Lifestyle, but
not even that a certain level of reputation that
I was afraid to lose So I had to let go of that
almost immediately. Yeah That was one. I would
say another one was. I had to be very. I had
to let go of not setting and keeping boundaries.
Because when you become an entrepreneur, yes,
you have all the time in the world, but all of
that time needs to be dedicated towards you doing
something constructive in the business where
you're going to end up broke. Right. And then
I tried my best to let go of as much ego as I
could. Alan has been mentoring me since we started
working together. So it was very important for
me to say, I think you know better in this. Oh,
you think I should start tracking habits? Okay,
I don't want to it sounds terrible, but I feel
like you probably know better. So I had to put
on the student hat and I had to let go of the
You have to look good. You have to pretend you're
better than you are you have to allow your ego
to keep you safe I had to let go of so much of
that and it was really really really hard because
my Core wounding is not good enough not smart
enough. Mm -hmm. So it was really important for
me to lean into that So yeah, that was probably
the biggest one is just let yourself be vulnerable
to the fact that you need to be coachable If
you're gonna succeed here, let go of all of the
ego around that How does one? And this is this
is a good point that a lot of people operate
from the I'm not good enough or I'm not loved
enough or whatever that that that thing may be
for them that drives them. How do you first identify
acknowledge that and then how does someone begin
to not operate from that space or will somebody
always operate from that space? I think we have
a home. But I think you can leave home for longer.
So I don't I don't know that you always will
operate from it I think it's it's a tendency
that it's easy to fall back into I would say
on a scale of zero to ten How much do you believe
in your own unique capability to build something
in the external world? Hmm like Do you believe
that you can build the business? Do you believe
that you can lose X amount of pounds and X amount
of time? All you were saying is I feel I'm a
level five competent. And that's like, good enough.
I feel I'm level five good enough to accomplish
that goal. That's usually where we start from.
What is very helpful is let's say you come up
with a number, okay, on a scale of zero to 10.
I feel level four confident that I can accomplish
this goal. Awesome. Why don't we lower the goal
so you feel level 10 confident you can do Then
when you do it we can set another goal that now
you'll be it'll be a bigger goal, but you'll
be able to set Something bigger and feel level
10 confident rinse and repeat that so Essentially
if you want to build belief you state you're
gonna do something You prove to yourself that
you're capable of doing it And then this is a
big one that a lot of people miss. You self -assign
the fact that you said you were gonna do it,
you did it, and now it's done. If you, go ahead.
No, no, no, go ahead. I was just gonna say, if
you resonate with, maybe you're really good at
saying you're gonna do it. Maybe you're struggling
with actually proving it and self -assigning.
That's hurting your self -belief day on day on
day on day. If you are really good at proving
it, But you never state you're gonna do it. You
probably feel like you're getting lucky And then
if you never self assign You're not giving yourself
the good vibes the good feelings the good emotions
that you said you were gonna do it You prove
to yourself that you're gonna do it You need
to take ownership for the greatness that you
just accomplished So usually we're missing out
on at least one of those if we feel like we don't
believe in ourselves Yeah And so what I was actually
what I was hearing you're saying that is it's
it's almost like I'm gonna use your your your
terms like next level confidence builder when
you actually do those things, but you need to
do those things and be integrists or have integrity
with your word. Yeah. And I think most people
are just told to set goals that don't serve them.
If you came to me and you said, Hey, man, I want
to be a more successful podcasters. Cool. I think
you should do seven episodes a week. You have
a life outside of this, you have other things
you're doing, you have other responsibilities.
If you set that goal, and you couldn't accomplish
it, you would lose belief in yourself. It's not.
That's not a you thing. That's a goal problem.
That's a limit yourself, but there are limits
to certain things. I think If we're we have to
be accurate with our limits Yeah, I if one of
my goals is to beat Michael Phelps and swimming.
I'm not going to it's not Five foot four that
means he there's no way But a goal maybe a goal
for me that's not constructive is I'm gonna tread
water for 13 seconds like that might not build
belief So I just think it's about it's the Goldilocks
thing Some goals are too big, and they're going
to break our self belief. Some goals are just
too small, and they're not going to build it.
But we have to find what the right amount for
you is based on what your self belief is. Is
that a lot of testing oneself or is that starting
from like, I need to find out who I am in a certain
space or just basically need to find out who
I am before I kind of challenge myself in whatever
area? I think it's a test and then a measure.
Okay, so if you let's throw let's throw the dart
at the board see where it lands and then see
what happens you can start you can start there.
I would rather somebody undershoot on a goal
than overshoot. Yeah, depending on their their
self belief. Again, you interviewed Alan, Alan
has the most self belief out of any human I've
ever met. He needs to lose. He just needs to
go lose because it doesn't affect his self belief
almost at all. If anything, it makes him believe
in himself more. Yeah. That prescription for
me, Michael is detrimental. Very detrimental.
Well, you know, I had it when I had Alan on.
First of all, I mean, even though we're we're
on camera, like certain people like yourself
exude a certain air of confidence about who they
are and do he stands tall? You know, I don't
know how tall he is, but he stands taller than
that, you know, because of the level of confidence
that he he he lives in, really. And so you're
saying that there are some people that can challenge
themselves beyond who they are, or some people
just need to just kind of find out where they
are first and then kind of set goals that match.
Yeah. The hardest part is it's usually this is
the weird thing. It's usually people like Alan
giving advice to people like me. That I remember
in the beginning. He'd just be like well kev
just believe in yourself more Thanks, man. I
appreciate that so much. Tell me how Right right
that it there's something weird about that like
a lot of the people that are giving advice To
the vast majority of people don't understand
how the vast majority of people think it's weird.
It's this weird paradox of Many of us have to
have a super high level of self -belief to accomplish
what we want But then we're talking to a group
of people who statistically have much lower self
-belief. Mm -hmm. I don't Yeah, I don't know
how you help someone if you don't understand
where they kind of are. It's it's very hard to
do that. Yeah Yeah, I find that when I hear it
sometimes I'm like even for me. I'll just put
myself in it I'll even challenge myself to like
things that are just beyond me, but I just feel
like I have it within me to just challenge myself
that way. But if I don't necessarily reach it,
I don't get down on myself now. I think I think
it's age and time. But I just kind of pivot and
say, you know, let's do it this way. Let's do,
you know, change, change strategy. Because I
don't like to give up. You know, and you talk
about heart driven, but no BS. Um, and I think
that's probably what I, what I am to myself.
What does that mean to you and how do you embody
that in your work? Heart -driven to me means
just giving you the truth because I care and
because I, I love you. And the no BS part is
I'm not going to lie about the good parts or
the bad parts. Yeah. The heart driven is, I mean,
everything we do is with the intention of helping
someone. Right. Right. Does it always feel that
way? Probably not. No. But the no BS is I've
been lied to enough by mentors and coaches and
influencers and entrepreneurs. I've seen behind
the curtains on some of the most successful people
in the world. And many of them are not who I
aspire to be. I got to keep it real. And I want
to be a real authentic version of myself and
that. So yeah, that's what it means to us. It's
I saw something the other day that was just encompassing
encapsulating of what I've been thinking a lot
recently. They said most self improvement most
personal development is like a snuggie. It was
like, yeah, like a snuggie. Okay. It feels good.
It feels warm. It keeps you safe. But it's never
going to help you grow a snuggie. If you're cold,
you can put on a snuggie. Awesome. Or you can
learn how to build a fire, which one of those
sucks worse building a fire in the cold, you
got to go source the material and you got to
figure it out, you're gonna get cold, you're
gonna get wet. I think for a lot of us, personal
development has become how to feel good momentarily,
as opposed to how to grow into somebody who's
more capable. of dealing with the feelings that
aren't always good. I think those are two very
different approaches. So we take the second one.
We are built on the fundamentals, extremely unsexy,
but I think it works. And the vast majority of
the time, after listening to us, you probably
will not feel better, but I do believe you will
have the opportunity to get better. Here on the
Thrival Journey, we talk a lot about not just
surviving, but thriving. And a big part of that
for me has been understanding my health on a
deeper level. That's why I partnered with Livegood
and brought it under my company, Orion's Health.
Not just because I believe in the products, but
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always, always consult your physician before
starting any new supplement or health regimen.
Your body is unique and your healthcare provider
should always be part of the conversation. The
links are in the show notes. Now tap in and take
your next step toward thriving. There's a lot
to be said about the pain that you go through.
It feels physical, but it's not necessarily physical,
but it's something to be said about the growth
that we go through on a journey to whatever aspiring
to be. What I realize is that the person today
that I am, and I'm pretty sure yourself and anybody
who's listening or watching, that the person
that we are today that we aspire to be was different
than the person 10 days ago, 10 years ago. And
when we look, when I look back and I'm like,
there was some growth and there was some pain
and there was some circumstances that I had to
get through in order to be the person I am today.
And when I'm here at this moment, I'm not satisfied.
Right. And I have to grow in order to be the
next level of the person that I'm, you know,
creating myself to be. Should it ever stop? I
think it is a deeply personal question. Should
it ever stop? I don't know if you can really
be fulfilled if you're not growing. Yeah. Again,
I always use like the Paris Hilton's of the world,
nothing against Paris Hilton. But a lot of people
would see somebody like that who has access to
infinite money, infinite opportunities. That
person is most likely not fulfilled. Maybe now
if they experienced, okay, all of this, this
pleasure and all of this opportunity didn't make
me feel good. Why? Okay, let me go grow and contribute
to something greater than myself. I think, I
don't think it always has to be the same size
of aspiration. But I think the direction is important.
Yeah. Am I always going to want exactly what
I want today? Probably not. Maybe I want more.
I don't know. But I think the direction of growth
if if growth is an ingredient that creates fulfillment,
I think when you lose growth, you probably also
lose fulfillment, I would say. But it doesn't
have to be in the same dose forever. It can change
depending on you. I agree. I agree. Now. This
is who you are today. We talked about you before,
like in that space. What do you feel transpired
in your growth and and what are the things that
you could call out to say? These are the things
that helped me grow to who are to where I am
today. Oh man some of the Hardest times have
been the greatest facilitators of growth Because
I think the necessity was great enough for me
to work through the discomfort that I was avoiding
for most of my life So as an example When I learned
the most about money, I was the brokest. If I
learned about money before then, Michael, I might
not have been broke. So when I when I learned
the most about leadership is when I felt the
worst about being a leader. I think oftentimes,
the feelings that we have are the suggestion
of the direction we should grow in. but it's
up to you to answer the call. But that's the
hardest thing ever. You already feel like you're
digging a hole. It's like, I don't want to fill
this hole in and then build on top of it. I think
that's kind of what we have to do. So anytime
there's been a shame, anytime there's been an
insecurity, or anytime there's been a glaring
weakness, that has been a highlight of this is
what you need to work on. That might be the biggest
lesson I have. That's one. The other thing is,
I don't know if I will ever look back and not
think I sucked. Yeah, so it's weird. It's okay.
The other the other night, I was in my feels.
And when I'm in my feels, Michael, I go watch
old content. That's like my go to for whatever
reason. Oh, really? Yeah, it's weird. I don't
know why I do it. But I was watching Episode
1000. You got to imagine I've done a thousand
episodes. I got to be pretty good at podcasting
I couldn't even watch the whole episode. It was
terrible Hey, you know what? Now now is it terrible
compared to average the average person or is
it terrible compared to what I am now? Yeah capable
of yeah Probably the second I mean, I think we
were good a thousand episodes in but not two
thousand episodes good. Mm -hmm This this quote
changed my life and I say it as often as people
will listen from day to day progress is invisible
ceases to exist from year to year progress both
positive or negative impossible to miss that
and I just am blessed and privileged enough to
have such a feedback loop of every day we do
an episode and I did an episode yesterday and
I did one today I'm no better I might be worse
better how much sleep I got yeah right compared
compared to last year though it's it's night
and day so just being able to see the incremental
improvement over time has helped me build so
much belief because unless you have checkpoints
it's really hard to it's really hard to feel
growth like is a hundred dollars expensive compared
to what Right? What's the con? I mean, no, not
if it's a car. But yes, if it's, you know, a
glass. So yeah, I think the perspective pieces
is super big. So I would say those are all of
those. And then I think I had this really challenging
phase. And I always have this phase is just different,
where I get a new insecurity that pops up. So
like we talked about in the beginning, my insecurity
was I am interviewing millionaires. bestselling
authors, professional athletes, professional
rappers and billionaires. I do not feel good
enough. And everybody knows I'm an imposter.
That was like the very vast majority of the time.
Then it was Alan's way smarter than me and he's
gonna outgrow me. Then it was he's leading the
company even though I started it. And it's always
been I don't know if insecurities are ever gonna
go away. I think I'll just be insecure at a different
level. And it'll be faster to face it. So I've
kind of sort of come to terms with, I don't know
if imposter syndrome is ever gonna go away. I
don't know if limiting beliefs ever fully go
away. I think you make friends with them. And
then you know, when this friend says this thing,
you say this thing back and then that friend
goes and sits in the corner for a while, I think.
That's what that's what I've experienced so far
at least. No, you know, I'm with you with that.
First of all, it cracks me up when, okay, you
guys, you were like 2000 and something episodes
in, you know, big audience, everything where
I mean, by the time this airs, it'll be, I don't
know, maybe 50 maybe. And I go back and I look
at one of the persons I had on was wanting to
get some, you know, some of the assets or whatever
they wanted to the podcast itself to, you know,
do some marketing for their for their stuff.
And I'm like, sure. And when I looked back at
it, when they put it up on the Instagram, I was
like, Oh, my God, this is absolutely terrible.
You know, you know, lighting was dark. I mean,
greasy skin. It was just, oh, my God, it was
just absolutely terrible. And I know this time,
you know, as we grow, you know, you do better.
You learn more. And I had the imposter syndrome
as well. And I didn't even know I didn't need
to know like who was a millionaire and who wasn't.
You know what I mean? I didn't need to know because
I would have this thing, this guttural feeling
in my stomach, right? Like, Oh, God, you know,
and it will come across that way as well. And
I had to find myself within the space. And once
I did that, because I know myself old enough
to know myself well, things shifted and I had
allowed my mindset to shift. And you talk about
your mindset and building mental resilience.
How did how does one do that when they're in
the space where they're doubting themselves and
they're trying to find? You know themselves when
in whatever area they're in I would say listen
to the voice that's trying to extend you not
to contract you So I think all resilience in
general is pushing through pain discomfort and
uncertainty Mm -hmm mental resilience is pushing
through mental pain mental discomfort and mental
uncertainty. It's the same thing. It's it's the
same You have to put yourself in places where
you don't know if you can hang to a constructive
amount. You have to ignore the first voice that
says you can't do this and say, well, let me
try it for a minute and see what happens. That's
really all it is. But I think it's a huge piece
of it that just goes under the radar is personal
development makes you capable of carrying a heavier
weight, but making it look lighter. Well, I think
the only not the only the main reason I'm capable
of handling pressure With somewhat grace, I won't
say it's full grace but somewhat grace Yeah,
is because I've done so much work on shirring
up the ship. So when the waves get rough, which
they will The ship just doesn't bounce as much
as it used to ship. Okay, I thought you said
sure enough the shit Whatever I've tried to sure
it up. So when the storm comes, it doesn't rock
the boat as much. And I think that's how you
build mental resilience is you put yourself in
a little bit over your head. And then you do
all the ancillary things you exercise when you
don't want to. You meditate when it's hard. You
set boundaries when you don't want to you have
the conversations with your partner when you
don't want to you look at the stuff that you
don't necessarily want to look at. And then the
next day you wake up and you're still here and
you get to do it all over again. And when you
do that for a year, you're a drastically different
human. So I think it's all those things. It's
you practice personal development. That's if
you want to build mental, physical, emotional
resilience, you practice personal development
because all personal development is, is you looking
at the bright spots, you looking at the dark
spots, you improving those things. Getting feedback
from yourself then the proverbial mirror and
then saying all right cool. Let me see what I
can do about that That's that's all personal
development really is yeah, I totally agree I
think for myself. I've been on a journey Years
of personal development, I don't think we we
ever stop and we shouldn't stop I think when
it comes to developing yourself as a human being
But I love what you said is that I'm probably
gonna ask you to say it again. But personal development
is when the load is heavy, carry feels like it's
light. Yeah. Yeah, I can't. Certain things come
out and people say like, Hey, what was that?
Say it again. It's gone, Michael is I couldn't
even tell you what we're talking about anymore.
I felt like it was. I'll bring us in. I felt
like it was just kind of it just kind of flow
from you and I was like, dang. But the great
thing is I get to listen back. and write my notes.
I try to write notes when I hear things for people
and be present at the same time. So I'm working
on that. But it's all good. Don't wait too long
to listen back because it'll be terrible if you
do if you wait too long, you won't be able to
listen through. No, I'm not. No, we you know
what we do is we after after we, you know, finish
the episode or finish the show, myself and the
producer, we go through them. And we get to it
right away because we don't want to lose what's
there. Because we get personal development out
of each and every podcast that we listen to.
So it's pretty good. And I wanted to talk to
you about, you talk about Alan and the confidence
that you guys share and have. How do you maintain
confidence without being, you know, arrogant
or disconnected even? You go to the gym and lift
heavy weight. That's the number one way to do
it for me, at least. You know, I think it's two
things. We have a client one time, he's a TEDx
speaker, he's a leadership coach, just a very
down to earth, intelligent, good human. And he
said to me one time, he said, Kev, you got to
know the press is never right. You're never as
good as they say, you're never as bad as they
say, you're always somewhere in between. Oh,
okay. Is that going to be like my mentor lesson
that I got from you? This is awesome. Okay. So
I always, I always think about that. That's a
piece of it. The other piece of it is the way
we got here was through humility, work ethic,
grit, consistency, and perseverance. When you
stop doing what got you to the dance, you do
not get to dance anymore. If we lose sight of
that, we will lose all of this. That is a Alan
and I talk about that all the time all the time.
I mean that is like an everyday conversation
So it is something that's really on top of our
minds. I think I probably balance Alan out because
Alan is not arrogant. I Think the typical sense
of arrogance that a lot of people think is that
person Talks about stuff they don't walk the
walk mm -hmm Alan's walk is already so high.
So it's really like when if anybody thinks he's
arrogant, it's most likely because he's not communicating
properly. I do believe he's probably capable
of almost anything he says. Yeah, because he
he knows so it's not like he's not saying it
from a place of arrogance. I just think it's
at times lack of communication. I've always tried
to be extremely humble because honestly, I think
that's what's gotten me in so many rooms is like,
hey, I'm not The best I'm not the fastest. I'm
not the smartest but like I'll work really hard
and I'll support you and I'll be a really good
number two and I'll know my place and all that
So I think we balance each other out Really really
really well where he'll shoot for the moon and
miss I'll remind him that that's fine for him.
But if we miss with the team, we're all gonna
die and This this is not gonna work anymore.
So we balance each other out really well. And
I think at the end of the day, we have a really,
a really, really vulnerable relationship where
we talk about what's real. Yeah, sometimes like
the stuff that you don't want to talk about.
Yeah. And that helps keep you humble because
you're always up against the weight of the mission.
I mean, this is we're never going to actually
accomplish what we want. Right? It's never going
to get an award that says, Hey, you're the most
successful personal development company on the
planet. Like that's gonna happen. Yeah. So The
journey of that will, in theory, always be humbling
as long as we keep our eyes on that. That brings
me to a point where do you believe confidence
comes before clarity? You guys have it just seems
like you're you're the way you guys are going
and what you've created. There's a lot of clarity
there. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Do I think
confidence comes before clarity or vice versa?
No, I think I think clarity. Yeah, no, I think
it depends on the person. I think either either
order. So if you let's say you just start out
naturally somewhat confident, you're probably
going to go do stuff that's misaligned. That's
going to create clarity. And then that'll double
down the confidence. If you're somebody who is
afraid to take action, you'll probably need a
little bit of extra clarity. When you do the
thing, you'll probably get better results. And
then that will re clarify. rinse and repeat.
So I think it all depends on where your self
belief is where your self worth is. That's why
success is so hard, because it is a very unique
equation based on your attributes. Like the,
the equation is so hard, because none of the
numbers are the same for any of us. Yeah, that's
that's why it's so challenging. I know for me,
I needed clarity first. Then that helped me build
confidence. Alan was confident. he needed clarity.
So he would take action, it would go horribly
wrong, boom, more clear, I would research and
prep. The first speech I ever gave, I did so
many test runs of it, that I knew, okay, 70 75
% of the way through, I should be at 15 minutes
and 30 seconds. And I should be on this point.
Alan finished his speech on like in the bathroom
stall on the day we were doing it. I did really
well. He didn't do very well. He was like, I
should probably prep a little bit more. I was
like, I'm the man. This is this is awesome. I
bombed the next speech because I got arrogant.
He prepped more. So it's always a it's always
a pendulum swinging back and forth. I think the
ultimate goal is just to to slow the swings down
so they don't go as far each time. Yeah, yeah.
balance of the both. I think I'm listening to
you and I'm putting myself in your shoes and
I'm still trying to figure a lot of I know I
need some clarity on my side. I think I have
more confidence than I do have clarity and ask
that question because you know for me it's like
what do I need most you know to help me forge
forward with my business and with what I'm creating
for myself. And so that's why I wanted to know
your point or your view on what do you what do
you look at more your strengths or your weaknesses?
Um, man, I think I look at probably my weaknesses
when I don't achieve a certain thing. Like if
I if I'm I'm trying to look at real life situations
here. I can't even think of anything right now.
I tend to go more to my weaknesses than I do
too much to my strengths. And then I'll mull
it over and be like, well, let me let me get
stronger in the area of whatever it is. And then
I'll go for that and then make that strike major.
try to make that strength work for me. Yeah,
or that weakness turn into a strength of work
and have that work for me. Yeah. So yeah, that's,
I think that's kind of I think what usually works
is sitting down and writing out a list of your
core values, your core beliefs and your core
aspirations. So core values, what do you value
about yourself about the world about people?
What are you attracted to not relationally or
sexually but like what You meet someone and they're
super humble and you're like, I want to be around
that person more. Well, I'm guessing humility
is probably one of your core values, core beliefs.
What do you believe about yourself? What do you
believe about the world? Like, what do you believe
the human experience should be? And then core
aspirations? What in the hell do you want to
accomplish? Yeah. Oftentimes, what you find is
your core values, your core beliefs are in conflict
with your core aspiration. And a lot of people
get stuck in that zone of Just a quick story.
I was working with a podcaster one time and I
said, what do you want? I mean, what's the point
of this? He's like, I want to be like you guys
but way more successful. Okay, love it. Love
that for you. I don't know what it's gonna take
to be beyond where we are because I can only
tell you what we've done. But internally, I'm
already thinking Michael, no, you don't. They
don't. You want what we have. You do not want
what we've done. So let me let me let me run
a test on you without you know, and I'm running
a test. That makes sense. I mean, on a scale
of zero to 10. How important is it for you to
be able to get your kids off the bus every day?
And he smiled 10 out of 10. Nice. I know. On
a scale of zero to 10. How important is it for
you to be at the recitals, parent teacher conferences,
all that stuff? 10 out of 10. You want to be
home for dinner every night? Yeah, 10 out of
10. I said, brother, with all the love in the
world, this ain't it. This ain't it. What happens
is we set a goal based on what the result of
the goal will be, not the process of accomplishing
the goal. The process of accomplishing the goal
is like 99 % of it. And then one day you get
it, but it doesn't really work like that. You
still have to sustain it. So that's always something
that has, it's been super helpful for me and
it's been helpful for a lot of clients because
Your core aspirations, you're not really factoring
in how that's going to affect your lifestyle.
You're only factoring in how that's going to
affect The highlights for the most part. So that
would be I don't know do that and see if anything
comes of it. Hopefully something will Yeah, making
a list and actually seeing it not only having
it inside but seeing it and then maybe internalizing
that yeah, see Yeah, I could see that. All right
See, that's why that's why we're podcasting.
And talking about that, just trying to connect
that with with what's next is your purpose. What
is like if you have to state what your purpose
is, or I know we have multiple purposes, but
your overall purpose, what is your overall purpose?
To be the type of person I needed at my lowest
point. That is that is why I show up the way
I show up my hair is popping through my hat I
don't care like this is how the version that
kev the person that kev needed This is how he
would show up He would have this energy. He would
be proud to be here. He'd be appreciative. He'd
be grateful like that is but I think where a
lot of us get stuck is I Got so many people say
how do you find your purpose? I think you know
Do I think if you've had something deeply meaningful
happen to you You most likely want to help a
certain person avoid a certain pain in a certain
way Where it where things get wonky is when somebody
says well, what's the vehicle? How am I gonna
do it? My purpose is not to be a podcaster My
purpose is to use my voice and my words to help
people raise awareness to avoid the pains that
I could yeah podcasting is just a vehicle for
that is just a vehicle. I think that's where
a lot of us get stuck is because the vehicle
doesn't seem realistic or the vehicle doesn't
seem sustainable, whatever, whatever it is. So
yeah, I think for a lot of us, it's like, there's
a bunch of questions. What would I find you talking
about on a Friday night? If you were like the
most passionate? What pisses you off the most?
What makes you the saddest? What makes you the
happiest? What have a bunch of people told you
that you're really, really good at without any
of your solicitation? There's a lot of ways to
talk about that. But I think finding your purpose
is one piece. And I think attaching your purpose
to a vehicle might be maybe even more important
than finding it in the first place. That is a
distinction. It's connecting your purpose to
a vehicle that can move that thing forward. I've
never looked at it that way. But I think it's,
that's, that's a really good point. For people
to look at, like, you know, after you find your
purpose, or you know what that is, it's like,
how do you get that, that purpose to live within
the world sustainably, right? We all want to
do it sustainably. That's, that's why it's like,
I used to be the guy, I've said some dumb stuff.
I used to be the guy who said like, yeah, if
you chase your passion or if you chase your purpose,
it'll happen. I don't know. There's got to be
some strategy in there. You know, we got to have
some strategy. If you love what you do, you never
work a day in your life. I don't think so. That's
overrated. So it's easy to say like, yeah, when
you're living in your purpose, everything comes
easy. It's like, ah. I think that's oversimplified.
I think most any like, even the quotes that I've
said today, like they're oversimplified, they're
not going to work in every situation, they'll
work in very select specific. How do you stay
connected to your purpose? That is a wonderful
question. Because I think as you're building
a business, it's easy to forget the purpose of
the business. For me, I try to think of how much
pain I was in when we started. I always try to
connect to like, yes, we have payroll and yes,
we have financial goals and we have things we're
trying to do. But at the end of the day, if we
ever lose sight of why this started in the first
place, we this is all for nothing. If we do.
And I know that's drastic. But like, we started
this to help people. That is one thing. The other
thing that I'm always thinking about is I want
to try to be as accessible as I can be I Told
Alan this the other day Okay, this is this is
a good. This is a story that will connect Alan
as a client. He's been working with for a long
time Member of our community listens to our podcasts
every day just a humble man Huge fan of humble
men like I love working with humble men here.
You're a super humble man. I could talk to you
all day So I reached out to him And I said, Hey,
I want to hop on a call with you to help you
with your podcast. And when I told Alan, I was
going to do that. He's like, I dude, honestly,
like there, there's no budget. He's already super
overwhelmed. And I said, Oh, I don't want anything.
I just want to talk to him. I just want to add
value. I don't ever want to not have the opportunity
to do that. Because that's why I started this
in the first place. I started this in the first
place. So I could message someone who couldn't
get anybody else to answer them and say like,
yeah, I'll, yeah, let's hop on a 30 minute call,
whatever. was 30 minutes. Am I gonna get that
30 minutes back? No. But am I gonna get fulfillment
in that 30 minutes? Of course. Of course. So
I try to never lose sight of the human aspect
of this. It's very easy to focus on scaling and
say that's a waste of your time. A waste of your
time is not always equating how much fulfillment
you'll get from it. So I'm always trying to work
on that equation. But again, easier said than
done when you have financial goals and payroll
and expenses and all that. But that's, that's
probably the best answer I could give. Yeah.
Yeah. I think I'm not even gonna go there. Nevermind.
But what you said is, is very, very real, first
and foremost. But I think, for me, it's also
like, sometimes I need to take a moment. And
just to stay like restate who I am for myself.
So that I, because, you know, life can be, I
don't, this is a word, but bombardastic. It bombards
you with a lot of things, right? I made that
word up. And sometimes it just takes just a moment
just to kind of just separate from all the stuff
and just to sit and be with, you know, yourself.
and just to remember who I am in the day and
who I am for myself and for other people. That's
what I have to do. Just to keep steady. I feel
you, man. I feel you. It's hard because you have
one really, really, really big goal, which is
like the purpose, and then you have a bunch of
seasonal goals that make up the big goal. That's
why it's so hard is like, well, we have to hit
x amount of revenue this quarter. That's the
goal this quarter, but it has to be done through
the lens of the massive purpose goal. Right.
So but I think that I think your answer is spot
on, you have to you have to zoom out, zoom out,
zoom out of this quarter to the goal, zoom out
of the goal into the purpose. And then if you
do that enough, but yeah, that's that's a tough
one. That is a philosophical question for sure.
It is it is Last question. How do entrepreneurs?
How can entrepreneurs start building impact today?
Even if they have like no audience or no capital
or little experience You're not gonna like the
answer if you're out there and you're an entrepreneur
It's gonna be opposite to what most people are
telling you do more free stuff that I still do
free stuff. I will probably always do free stuff.
It is one of the best ways to directly impact
people. Now I know what you're thinking. Well,
if I can get on a stage in front of 5 ,000 people,
I can impact 5 ,000 people. Yeah. Getting on
a stage like that takes time though. In the beginning,
I think we drastically underestimate. If you
were to do a free webinar that had no strings
attached and 15 people came, 15 people is a lot
of people. It just doesn't feel like it when
you compare to social media land with people
with millions of followers So I would say focus
way less on scale and focus way more on impact
That's I think that's one of the most common
things. It's like well, that's not scalable We
don't worry about that. You don't have to worry
about that now worry about that when it's not
scalable You're not you're not even doing it
yet Go go get out there and make some friends
and make some noise and connect with people.
I think if I can say anything about the quote
unquote success we've had. In the beginning,
if somebody dm'd me, like, Michael, if you dm'd
me and said, Hey, just listen to episode number,
whatever, I loved it, I would send you my personal
cell phone number. And I would ask you to get
on a FaceTime call, because I would want to learn
about you. What resonated? What didn't? What's
your experience like, so I can make better content?
That a waste of time? A lot of people told me
it was but I think it was one of the best uses
of time I could I could do. So it would be that
yeah, go out one on one. It there's there's not
a lot of people doing that anymore. Yeah, right.
Because the internet has made things so scalable,
there is there is an opportunity for you to be
face to face or one to one. And you can impact
people to a really deep degree. And then it's
ultimately a conversation of breadth versus depth.
So How many people can I impact his breath? To
what degree can I impact them is depth? It depends
on which one you want to optimize for two. That's
a big piece of it. Very good. Every time you
say something is like a whole bunch of questions.
But I'm not going to do that. So we're going
to wrap up with this. What I like to ask guests
on the podcast is, you know, we go through all
these questions and we, you know, it's kind of
particular to what whatever topic but As your
last words on this podcast, not necessarily about
the topic itself, but as your last words on this
podcast, what is on your heart and your mind
that you want to share different from the top
of the podcast, but your lasting words that you
want to live on a podcast for someone. If you
are somebody right now who is out there and you're
growing a ton, And it doesn't feel good. Doesn't
mean you're doing it wrong. It probably means
you're doing it right. Growth is uncomfortable.
Growth is scary. Growth is uncertain. But it
probably will be one of the most fulfilling things
you could ever possibly do. So yeah, it might
be scary and you might feel like you're doing
it wrong. But I would say if you recognize any
level of evolution yourself, I would keep going.
It's worth it. It's worth it. What's the alternative?
What's the alternative? You don't want to wake
up in 30 years and regret the last 30 years?
You don't want to do that, right? So yeah, it
would be that. A lot of what we talk about is
the challenges and it is the overcoming and it
is the limiting beliefs and the fears and the
uncertainties. But I'm the most fulfilled I've
ever been. And I'm not. It's not a coincidence.
That's not a coincidence. So keep growing. You
will be grateful you did. And last, last, last
thing. Unfortunately, oftentimes, when you're
growing, the people around you are villainizing
you. That speaks more about the people around
you than it does you, because you're literally
working on yourself. And I don't think there's
a more noble thing a human can do than work on
themselves. Love it. Love it. Kevin, man, I appreciate
you being here. Long awaited. And I'm so glad
that that we made this conversation happen from
both you and Alan, I mean, it's a pleasure to
have, you know, have you both on this podcast,
and hopefully we'll do something in the future.
And how do I know we did it before, but let's
do it again. How do people get in touch with
you? If they want to get to the next level them.
I appreciate it very much. And I mirror those
words back. This has been wonderful. I you're
an ally in the mission. I love what you're doing.
And I appreciate your time so very much. Thank
you. Of course, of course. The podcast is Next
Level University. We do an episode every day.
So after you listen to Michael's episodes, you
can come check us out. My handle on Instagram
is at never quit kid. That's where I'm most active.
And then my email is Kevin at next level universe
.com. If you have questions, comments, concerns,
anything I can do to add value, seriously shoot
me an email. You would be mind blown how often
I say it and how little people do it. You're
not going to bother me. I promise I wouldn't,
I wouldn't say it if I didn't want you to reach
out. So anything I can do to add value, let me
know. Just say, thrive well in the, in the subject.
I'll know where you came from and we'll party.
Nice. I love it. And the question of the week
that I have here for all your listeners and watchers,
what's one decision that you made that completely
changed your life and what decision do you? the
viewer, the watcher need to make today. Your
next level. All right. And again, I want to say
thank you to Kevin and the next level. You group
people team for, uh, just for just blessing us
with your presence. And as we always say, let's
make thriving our new normal. See you next week.
Before you go, I just want to say thank you.
Thank you for being a part of the travel journey.
Every time you show up here, you're choosing
growth, clarity, and the deeper work of becoming
who you're meant to be in this world. And if
you're ready to reconnect with what truly lights
you up, I created something powerful that can
help you. It's called The Empowered Path, Seven
Days to Reclaim Your Purpose and Passion. It's
a beautifully designed guided workbook that walks
you through a week of powerful prompts. clarity
building tools, and real mindset shifts. Now
you can get instant access to it today. It's
a small investment for a huge return, your energy,
your clarity, your alignment. And if you want
to take it deeper, check this out. I'm offering
a limited number of free 30 minute purpose coaching
sessions. No pressure. No pitch, just space for
you to reconnect with your direction, your gifts
and what's next. So you can grab the guide and
book your session at the link in the show notes.
Let's not just go through the motions. Let's
really walk this path on purpose. I appreciate
you. And like we always say, let's make thriving
our new normal. And I'll talk to you soon.