To me, motivation is the path is already set.
I just need to keep going down the path. Inspiration
is I didn't know there was a path. You've just
opened my eyes. There's a path. Here are three
questions you can ask. Number one, who do we
serve? The second question you can ask is what
job is our product or service hired to do? The
third question that you can ask is of each staff
member is how do you make a difference here?
And there's that certain anxiety that's all of
a sudden created in you. But I know it now, and
so I can let that dissipate. A little bit like
getting on stage, even though I've done it so
many times, every time I still got to do it,
I still feel that activation for a few hours.
What I would say to that person is, well, you
have to figure out that if it's just your fear
that's holding you back, then your fear will
still hold you back five years from now. I went
to college and I sat in the first day of this
one class and the professor said, part of your
grade, everyone's going to get up front and do
a presentation. I was like, heck no, not me.
I dropped the class. And at the end, when I got
done, people started to come up to me and said,
Hey, You need to do that more often. Hey, family.
This is a Thriveware journey. Look, life's too
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This podcast is all about powerful stories, real
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as we always say, let's make thriving our new
norm. Hey, today I'm joined by James Robbins.
He has over 20 years of experience. James has
helped entrepreneurs and leaders align with purpose
and action, build resilient teams, and drive
sustainable business growth. He's a best -selling
author, award -winning speaker, and an adventurer
at heart. What I'm seeing is he climbed mountains
and inspired audiences around the world, which
is cool. He has a book, Nine Minutes on Monday,
which was named Business Book of the Year. and
he has an upcoming book, The Call to Climb, which
is set to hit shelves this year. And James is
here on our show. And we had a little conversation
before we started. But you know, James, let the
world know how you're doing. Michael, great to
great to meet you. Thanks for having me on your
show. Always, always good to meet new people.
Yes, you know, we were talking and you, you live
in the mountain area, right? And you grew up
from my research here, you grew up on a cattle
ranch in the Rocky Mountains. How how was that
that life? I think I had the best upbringing
because my father grew up on a farm and then
just he thought I need to get an education so
I don't become a farmer. So he went did that
but then he wanted to raise his kids on on a
farm. And so even though he was in the professional
world, he was still a rancher on the weekends
and evenings. So I got a chance to grow up on
a cattle ranch, but it wasn't so big like some
of my friends that I grew up with where they
worked really hard like chores all weekend. And,
you know, I had minimal work to do. But, you
know, got to grow up around animals, grow up
in the country. It was fantastic. Yes, I think
growing up. we would visit ranches and farms
in Michigan. But, you know, it was nothing that
I would see myself wanting because it doesn't
look like a lot of work. You know, I'm here and
you got to wake up at six o 'clock in the morning
or whatever clock in the morning to get your
chores done, get work done before you can go
to school, you know, at a young age. But I know
you lived on the ranch. So did you get lessons
from living on the ranch? For sure. I think There's
just a certain way that people think that are
in the rural communities. I think even today
this would still hold true. There's a simplicity
to life and there's a common sense to life. It
doesn't get too complicated. And I think that
shaped my view as well. One of the things I'm
known for is taking complex things and just making
them simple. And I think I think probably that
was rooted from where I grew up, right? Just
keep things simple, water runs downhill. It's
just like some simple rules that that you live
by. Yeah, simply simplicity is the best way to
do things. I think I mean, you know, there's
complexity in many things. And I think when you
make things too complex, you know, people just
kind of, you know, tune out and it's like, you
know, good, just keep things simple. What are
the we're going to talk about leadership leadership
a little bit. Did you get lessons of leadership
as you're growing up on that wrench? I did, but
not like they were told to me that these are
lessons in leadership. It was more that, you
know, later looking back, you can see the principles,
whether that's discipline or consistency. You
know, Michael, as I say all the time, like leadership
isn't easy. At the same time, it doesn't have
to be complicated. I think most things in life
are like that. They're not easy, but that's not
complicated. And leadership at the end of the
day is how do I produce results? through a group
of people in a way that they enjoy the ride.
Yeah. And so there's the there's the process
side of that. And there's the people side of
that. And, and both of them have, you know, both
of them have some principles that you've just
got to, you got to tap into, in your experience,
what separates a good leader from a great leader,
good leader from a great leader, good leaders
will definitely get the job done. And They will
motivate their teams, you know, all those things
that we know, but great leaders are able to get
people to have an internal source of motivation.
So in other words, if we, if motivation exists
on a scale, right on the far side, we've got
this highly controlled external motivation, kind
of like this is the bear chasing you in the woods.
Like you've got to run. That's like, I have to
do it. Bad leaders will motivate from there.
Good leaders will come to a place where they'll
get people to want to do it right because there's
some kind of reward uh or perk but the great
leaders are able to shift how people see the
job in front of them so that internally they
want to do it and that's when people have that
intrinsic motivation that's when they are produce
the best work put the most of their heart and
passion in there persist through obstacles more
they're more creative tons of research on extrinsic
motivation so great leaders are able to get get
their people to be self motivated. Yeah, I mean,
oftentimes, we have guests on the show, and they
talk about inspiration versus motivation. You
know, what's your take on that? Inspiration to
me is a very important piece of the puzzle. Inspiration
is when you think about it, inspiration is helping
people open their eyes to possibility, right?
When I see that, let's say I'm discouraged, and
then a leader comes in and says, Hey, James,
like, What's going on? Like you have so much
talent. You could do this. You could do that.
And all of a sudden I open my eyes and I see
it and I believe it. That's inspiration because
what's happened is now I see there's possibility
and that inspires me, you know, creates hope
that creates action. Motivation is to me more
that, okay, I know what I need to do. I'm just
beginning to lose power. And so. If you're going
to help me be motivated again, there's a lot
of different techniques that we would use to
help someone get motivated. But it's to me, motivation
is the path is already set. I just need to keep
going down the path. Inspiration is I didn't
know there was a path. You've just opened my
eyes. There's a path. So we took it to, we talked
to a lot of, you know, aspiring entrepreneurs,
business. beginning business owners, or people
that have the idea of wanting to be an entrepreneur.
If you're thinking about doing it, but don't
take the steps, what would you say to that person
that is kind of scared to step into that world?
Do you mean the person who's thinking of starting
a business and they've been dragging their feet?
Yes. Yes. Thank you. For sure. Listen, I think
starting a business is one of the best things
you can do. For anybody even if it's just a side
hustle because you will learn so much not just
about business Honestly, you learn so much about
yourself. Mm -hmm like had I not started my own
business and I just continued to work in the
Organizations I was in yeah for sure. There's
some perks and benefits there, but I would have
missed out on the personal growth so what I would
say to that person is Well, you have to figure
out that if it's just your fear that's holding
you back then your fear will still hold you back
five years from now and will hold you back 10
years from now. In other words, there's never
a time that I know where it's just easy to start
a business. And what I've learned is that starting
a business is really about betting on yourself.
Yeah, it's going all in on you. So you can do
all the market analysis and you can do all those
good things you need to do. But at the end of
the day, you have to say, do I believe in me?
Am I going to bet on me so that When I do this,
I'm committing, you know, it's Michael's not
unlike getting married, right? When you get married,
you don't know what you're doing, right? Or when
you decide to have children, you don't know what
you're doing, but you just make this commitment.
All right. I'm going to, I'm going to be a father
and I'll figure it out because I have no choice.
So it's almost like putting yourself in that.
In that setting. It's like, well, I will figure
it out and I will believe in me and people who
can do that will be successful. Yeah, I like
what you said, like better knowing yourself.
A lot of people have the self doubt though, right?
They have the self doubt that I can't do, you
know, or they don't have a complete plan. But
you said a nice phrase, which is bet on yourself.
And that's what we should do anyway, even if
we're not, you know, thinking about entrepreneurship,
like if you just want, you know, to work within
an organization, still bet on yourself. It's
probably the best way to live your life, right?
All in on you for sure. Yeah. What's a common
mistake that, you know, we're talking about leadership?
What's a common mistake that leaders make? If
they have a team, and we're going to transition
into small business in a little bit, if they
have a small team, what are the common mistakes
that leaders make? One of the common mistakes
is that leaders see the territory different than
their team sees it. So if we want to be more
specific and talk about entrepreneurs, anyone
listening who is a business owner or an entrepreneur,
you started your business for a particular reason.
And now it might be very altruistic, like you
saw this need and you really want to help people
out. But if honestly, most business owners, if
they're really honest, that's part of the reason,
but they usually start a business because, hey,
I don't want to work for someone else anymore.
I want to have my own freedom. I want to be able
to take vacation when I want to take it. I've
always wanted to do something different. So Those
are all your reasons, right? It's that purpose
that drives you, but that purpose is not transferable
to the people that you're going to hire because
that's not motivating. Oh, I'm working for this
company so that my boss doesn't have to have
a job. So what you have to do as a leader is
you have to translate purpose down to every level,
right? So even if your purpose is still, Hey,
I just don't want to work for anyone else. I
want to be in control of my own world. Hey, that's
totally fine. But then for the next level down,
What are you calling them to be a part of? Because
when you hire someone, especially into a small
team, you want to hire them into a movement,
hire them into a cause, hire them into a challenge,
like, hey, here's what we're building. Here's
what we're going after. Here's what we're doing
so that they can be part of that, not just fill
a job description. And that's one of the mistakes
that especially small business owners make, I
got to fill this position, who's going to do
the job? How does one do that? How does one tap
into that? that that world of, you know, connecting
their purpose or their why to their team? Yeah,
that's a great question. So for those of you
who are, are business owners, or even if you're
leading in a company, here are three questions
you can ask of yourself that helps clarify the
answer. Number one, who do we serve? So at the
end of the day, you don't serve clients, that's
not motivating. You serve some sort of need in
the market, you serve moms, you serve families,
you serve business owners who are stressed out.
It's almost like you take a page from your marketing,
the very same thing you use to get people to
buy your services, and you help your staff see
this is who we serve. The second question you
can ask is what job is our product or service
hired to do, right? So everyone has a product
or service, or maybe you have both, but At the
end of the day, nobody really wants your product
or service. They are wanting it for some reason.
So I'll give you an example. I was working with
a small business owner. She had a day spa, but
their prime revenue driver was cosmetic sales.
But what she found was that her sales team, they
were not pushing sales. They were not upselling.
So how they, how they had it, people, women would
come in, they would get a make a free makeover.
And then the women. uh, the employees were supposed
to upsell them more makeup. And so I said, okay,
well, you know, what job is your product hired
to do like cosmetics? Basically, why do women
buy cosmetics? They told me, well, they buy them
to feel beautiful and to look beautiful. I'm
like, yeah. So, so think about this for a moment.
Those, I don't know the name of the beauticians
or whatever you call the women who do the makeovers.
I said, so you're telling me they get to come
in every day and their job is I get to make women
feel beautiful. That's actually a great job.
And if I really believe that's what I'm doing,
and I believe in the company and the products,
then the upsell isn't a isn't a sale anymore.
It's just it's a it comes from a different place,
a place of service. And so sometimes it's getting
people to think differently about the job. So
we got We got them to start thinking like that,
and within a week, a woman came in, got a makeover,
she went to pay, and she said to the receptionist,
she said, I just feel so confident, and I said,
hey, you gotta take that sound bite, you gotta
take that back and remind your salespeople, this
is what we do, right? What job is our product
hired to do? So it's our job as leaders to remind
people, and I have to do it in my company as
well, right? Like, I'll have a... maybe go out
and maybe teach a workshop to a company. And
then they might say afterwards like, Hey, this
really helped us XYZ. Well, that's nice feedback
for me. And then I know I'm making a difference.
Well, my staff don't know that. Meanwhile, they're
editing videos, you know, filling out stuff,
customer service. So I've got to take some of
that back and give it to them. Hey, just reminder,
this is the bigger picture. And the third question.
that you can ask is of each staff member is is
how how do you make a difference here? Well,
you're not asking them that you are letting them
know here's how you make a difference. Right?
That way people feel that sense of purpose and
significance. Those are great questions are three
questions. And you were you talk about helping
people reach their highest potential. Things
kind of connects. How do you What's the first
I've been doing that the first thing in doing
that is to get clear on what they really want.
not what they think they're supposed to want,
not what they think their parents want them to
want, or their church, or their spouse, or their
community. What do you want? I believe that everyone,
so it's my belief that everyone has an inner
life, everyone has a soul, if you want to use
that word, psyche, soul, and I believe everyone's
purpose in life is to be the the highest version
of themselves. A little bit like the seed of
an oak tree, its purpose is just to become that
oak tree. Now the oak tree will do many things,
right? It's going to create shade, and a home
for animals. But it does those things because
of who it is. And I think number one is people
better get it clear of what they want. And then
number two is understand that their purpose isn't
even to go after those things. Their purpose
is just to bring that highest version of themselves
to the world. And then as they begin to pursue
what they want in that authentic place, they're
going to run into resistance. And that's all
the programming that we have from our little
life. And it's beginning to get intentional about
seeing what those programs are and making a decision
that I'm not going to live on autopilot. I'm
going to make a different decision. And so it's
hard work, but that to me is the path of high
performance personally. I love that. And that
I'm going to veer away from, we're going to get
there in a minute, but you talked about, which
I think is great, first of all. your inner life,
your soul, and connecting to your purpose. In
that, you get obstacles, right? And sometimes
we question what our purpose is in connection
with what our business is. How does one overcome
that or reconnect if they get disconnected, reconnect
with what that is for them? Made this mistake
so many times in that I was always searching
for what am I supposed to do with my life? It's
like this really heavy question, you know, am
I what I'm doing now? Is this what I'm supposed
to be doing with my life, right? So it's it's
not a bad question It's only a bad question if
you think that there's only one thing you're
supposed to be doing and you find that thing,
right? It's like yeah, it's like the soulmate.
I've got to find my soulmate. There's three and
a half billion, you know of the opposite sex
out there, and I've got to find the one. So to
me, again, purpose comes back to, well, what's
the version of you that needs to be here in the
world? Right? What's the version of you as a
father, as a mother, as a friend, as an employee,
as a boss? What's that version of you? OK, now,
once you get clear on that, there's probably
a thousand different mountains you can climb.
And to me, this is the exciting part of life
is that, OK, you're going to you're going to
start this business for a while. But maybe five
years from now, you're going to go, I don't really
feel passionate about this anymore. And some
people then think, well, then I obviously chose
the wrong path. But you can't really it's hard
to make that judgment because maybe it was the
right path for that period of time. And now you're
going to do something different. And that's that's
cool also. So to me, following your passion is
going to be at times messy and you're not going
to get it right. But you what you do want to
get right is the authenticity that okay, here,
this is what I'm going to do. For some people,
their highest thing is maybe I'm just going to
be a provider. So maybe it doesn't matter what
job I take, as long as I can provide for my family.
That's the number one thing and I will feel good,
good about that. Yeah. What's you talked about
authenticity in connection with your purpose?
And that's more intangible. How can you take
that intangibility, if that's a word, to something
tangible like a habit and keep that habit aligned
with your purpose in your business? As I see
it, everything in our life is the result of our
patterns and habits. And, you know, the very,
the very concept of habit means that it's become,
in a sense, automated. It's become on its own,
right? But then most of the habits that we have
are below the surface that we don't even realize
that they are there. So to me, it begins with,
you know, kind of back to getting clear on what
you want and starting to go down that path. But
then as you run into resistance, that's the opportunity
for growth. Because when you run into resistance,
what you're really running into is a habit. So
if we want to talk on it, you know, as you said
about tangible habits, well, The business owner
who is constantly distracting him or herself
with redesigning their logo, changing their website
again, all so they can avoid picking up the phone
and getting on a sales call because they might
get rejected, that often happens subconsciously.
So until you start to take a look and you realize,
wait a minute, I should be picking up the phone
and making 30 calls before noon. Why am I not
doing that? Yeah. And when you're really honest
in a non -judgmental way, it's like, well, because
I don't want to do that. I would rather redesign
my website and call my friend. Well, now you're,
now you're getting tangible. Like, okay, so there's
the, you found the habit. You stumbled on it.
The habit is a habit of avoidance. Now what do
you want to do? Do you want to create a new habit?
And if you do, okay, let's, let's begin to set
some new goals. All right. I'm going to, I'm
going to make 30 calls before noon. And as I
have that. resistance, great, I'll, I'll deal
with it, but I'll keep going. And eventually
you create a new habit. Yeah. It's like, you
have to disrupt some of those things that, that
are under that. I mean, they're apparent, but
they're under the surface that we don't necessarily
see or call out on ourselves as not just entrepreneurs,
but as human beings period. Well, sure. You know,
and I speak about the the sales thing. I speak
about that because I know that I am that person.
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When I started my business, nobody told me I
was going into sales. I just thought I was doing
this fun thing over here. And then you realize,
wait, I have to sell, which means I have to be
rejected, which means I better deal with that.
Right. I mean, that's probably in that world.
It's an underlying issue for a lot of people.
In one aspect of my business, I know that I have
to make calls and do all that kind of stuff.
And I think for me, I was dealing with rejection.
I didn't want to be told no, you know? And that
was something that I had to overcome. And for
me, a no is like, okay, well, not this time.
Maybe I'll circle back around or just keep on
going. And there was something that I had to
deal with. How do you personally deal with it?
personal setbacks or, or, um, resistance that
you, that you get. I still go through a cycle
of, you know, depending on the day, I might just
one day all of a sudden, uh, rejection really
bothers me and it creates that energy. And there's
that certain anxiety that's all of a sudden created
in you. And, but I, I know it now. And so I can,
I can let that dissipate a little bit like getting
on stage, even though I've done it so many times.
Every time I still got to do it. I still feel
that activation for a few hours and That's that's
not a bad thing actually, but I'm just used to
it now and I know okay Well, this is this is
just this goes with the territory for me Maybe
for other people they are able to completely
remove What rejection means to them? I think
for me it's ingrained in that there are days
where I have a great bulletproof mindset and
rejection just flows off me like water off a
duck's back. Yeah. And there are other days where
one rejection makes me want to go redesign my
logo. That's so funny. Um, yeah, because I have
those days too, right? Like, I'm like, ah, you
know, just keep on going. Oh, somebody's told
me no, it's okay. You know, you know, and then
there's days where I'm looking because, you know,
also in the social media world, it's like, oh,
you know, somebody says something negative about
something that I put out, or, you know, am I
doing something wrong? And, you know, am I not
doing it? Am I not good enough? Or something
that was, you know, it would just play around
in my mind, you know, and then it's like, what
steps do I need to take to make myself better,
but it could be nothing, you know what I mean?
It could just be like that person receiving something
just the way they receive it has nothing to do
with me. And I had to figure that out the hard
way. I know you're on stages and you do a lot
of storytelling. What makes storytelling powerful,
especially as people who are entrepreneurs that
may be not good at selling their business or
talking about their business or giving their
vision or their purpose out? How does one do
that and what makes that powerful? Yeah, stories
is the superpower. Like we talked at the start,
I grew up in a rural area. I was shy, introverted,
totally insecure. First time I got on stage,
the first hundred times I got on stage. But storytelling
would be the anchor that gave me the most confidence
because it's the most natural. I think we were
born to tell stories. It's difficult to remember
the five bullet points, even though you've recited
them. but to tell a story is powerful. So when
it comes to storytelling, you know, people make
mistakes by trying to put too much in the story,
too much backstory. Stories really need a couple
of things to make them work. They need a starting
point, which is some kind of a setting, right?
Which is basically just per who and who and where,
who, what and where, you know, Michael and I.
We're at seven eleven on Friday. That's just
where it starts. The brain needs a place to get
started. And then at some point it needs it needs
tension and tension is created by some sort of
either conflict or potential of loss. And then
the rest of the story is is the resolution of
that tension, whether it was a solution, whether
it was a a fight that had to be won or a product,
your product that solved the tension. And then
a transformation of the character. So when you
When you tell stories though from a business
perspective You want to find a way to tell their
story and you might have heard that before You
know make your stories their stories. Okay. Well,
how do I do that though? And there's a couple
different ways and one of them is to is to pull
them into your story So I'll give you an example.
I do this on one of my main keynotes I I have
this keynote where it's a story of us climbing
The attempting to climb the highest mountain
in Bolivia. And I start out telling the story
and we're stuck at high camp. And then I say
to the audience, I say, I want you to imagine
for a moment that there you are at high camp.
And I begin to explain what high camp looks like.
But, but I'm telling them like, then you do this,
then you get into your tent is freezing cold.
You hear the wind. And then I take the story
back and I go back to, you know, I, I, I, but
in that brief. 30 seconds what I did was I got
people to imagine themselves on the mountain
and now for the rest of the story they're climbing
the mountain which is filled with obstacles and
then they get really into the story so that's
one way the other way is when you tell a story
and the character is very similar to them so
for example if I was speaking to a rural audience
which I've done from time to time And I could
be telling one of my stories of growing up in
a rural area people resonate with that because
they get that and in that way, it's their story
or if you've got a product you're trying to sell
and You're gonna give a test. You're gonna give
a testimonial or a case study. Those are just
stories You know like hey Michael tried our product.
This is what Michael was struggling with with
his business Right and as I'm telling people
your story everyone who has the same problem,
it becomes their story, right? Your transformation
becomes the transformation they want. The reason
stories are so powerful is because think of it
a little bit like the city of Troy, like the
story of the Trojan horse, right? Like everyone's
walls are up to resist influence. And what a
story is, is the Trojan horse that's new and
exciting and like, what's that? And people lower
the bridge and let it inside. And then of course,
in the story, the soldiers came out. Well, the
soldiers are the point of your story. Whatever
point you're wanting to make, you're wrapping
that in a story that gets it through the gates.
And now they're into the city. That's their mind.
Right. And that's how you change people's thinking.
Because if you want people to change it, it doesn't
even start with just like knowledge. It's getting
them to think differently. And once they think
differently, they're going to take different
action. So when you think about what story that
you should tell, think more about what do I want
them to think? And what do I want them to feel?
And now let me create a story that's going to
accomplish those two goals. And then you're in
and you're in Yeah, for sure. Again, you've been
on stages you had like we've talked before, like
before the podcast started. You said 3 ,000 times
you've been on stages. So for those who are listening
and want to use, you know, they want to start
speaking to, you know, elevate themselves and
their business or, you know, and also to elevate
the audience that they want to speak to. In the
beginning, I know it's not easy. Have you had
a story or sharing yourself on the stage and
that that story or that message it flopped. And
if so, how'd you recover? Yeah, so I came with
the belief that I am not a public speaker. And
that started when I was seven years old. And
I was asked to thank one of our coaches at the
end of the year banquet. And I got up to do this
speech, and I totally bombed it. And even at
seven, I knew I had bombed it. And it was like
somebody put a sticky note on me, you know, not
a public speaker. Then in ninth grade, we had
to do a speech. uh everybody had to do a speech
in class and because of my own anxiety and because
of my like i'm no good at this i didn't prepare
and i totally bombed it and you know it's a it's
a terrible feeling when you're 14 in front of
your peers knowing that you suck in this moment
and it was like 50 more you know post it no it's
like not a public speaker well anyways this this
continued i went to college and I sat in the
first day of this one class and the professor
said, part of your grade, everyone's going to
get up front and do a presentation. I was like,
heck no, not me. I dropped the class. So my fear
of speaking was then dictating my future. And
what changed was one day I was, it was still
a college student and I was attending this church
and the preacher came to me and said, Hey, we'd
like a college student to get up front. and share,
you know, for five minutes on what they're learning
in their Bible. And I'm like, can't you see all
the post -it notes on me that say you're not
the public speaker? Right. So anyways, I distinctly
remember I was sitting on a football side of
a football field and I was just whining about
this. And it was literally like a voice that
said to me, could you just one time, could you
for once just not care about what anyone thinks?
and just go and do this. And I was like, okay,
I'll do it. And you know, if I'm going to fail,
let's let's at least make it a great story. And
let's fail big time. So the difference was all
of a sudden, I prepped, I prepared, and I showed
up and I thought, well, I'm just going to go
for it and be energetic. And I was and at the
end, when I got done, people started to come
up to me and said, hey, you need to do that more
often. And that was the first day that some of
those sticky notes began to come off. Not all
of them. But then I realized I was the one who
put them there in the first place. And so we
have to be careful what we tell ourselves. So
for those of you who are entrepreneurs, giving
presentations is one of the best ways to grow
your business. I would say 80 % of all my business
is generated because of some kind of stage. Speaking
at a conference, Uh, giving a webinar, inviting
people to a free workshop. I'd say 80 % of my
business comes out of that. And again, you might
say, well, yeah, you've spoke so many times.
Yeah, but look where I started. You, you can't
be any further back than me when I started, right?
Who's like, I, I'm going to drop my course. I
can't do this. So yeah, it's, of course it's
scary, but when you have the right structure,
then That's really where it is. It's, it's how
you structure a presentation. That's where the
money is. Yeah. I was going to say that because
I have the opposite story. I, the first time
I remember being in front of a crowd, I was thinking
I was maybe, I dunno, I was in middle school.
I was, I was wrestling and we had, you know,
the, the little dinner after, you know, it's
all done and everything. And, and I, I, you know,
had some postcards and everything. I was supposed
to go up and, you know, welcome people or whatever.
And I didn't know what I was doing. But I was
so confident in myself. And I used I found the
word matriculation. I think maybe I was in, I
don't know, maybe seventh grade, we're going
into eighth grade, I don't know, something like
that. And people are like, Oh, my God, matriculation
for your such a young guy, you know, you know,
these words. And so I got the pat on the back,
you know, and then later on, and I was maybe
14 or something. I went to Europe, you know,
track and field, came back, received an award,
and I was in front of all these people. The only
thing I said was, I don't know what to say. And
everybody laughed and I thought it was great.
So in my mind, I was, you know, doing good. And
as I got older, you know, in college, I had to
do public speaking for my degree. And I was good
in that. But then as I got older, Again, it was
like a reverse. I just I was afraid to talk to
people for whatever reason. Again, you were talking
about structure. I felt like I just didn't have
anything to say or maybe I didn't have a structure.
But then I shied away from it. You know, what
would you say to people that were in my shoes?
You know, and I mean, I became an actor and all
that kind of stuff. So I think kind of shifted.
But still, if you said, Mike, go into this place
and speak to 20 people. I'll be out. You know,
I'll do this. I don't know. I don't know. What
do you say to those people? First of all, like
me, talk to me. First of all, I don't even know
what the word matriculation means. So that's
impressive that you use that as a child. Yeah,
Mike. I mean you can put me in front of a group
and just say James talk to these people about
you know Whatever and if it's something I don't
really know about then of course, it's gonna
cue the anxiety. It's gonna cue the insecurity
At the end of the day when you're up front if
you're speaking you got to think what's the message
I want to share so sometimes sometimes we We
doubt ourselves that we have a message but we
do other times we maybe are so caught up with,
oh, what should I say that we don't think about
a message? So for example, let's say somebody
is thanking you, honoring you for something.
And you get that moment where you're like, oh,
I don't know what to say. But when you think
about it, it's like, but what's the message I
want to send? It could be that I'm so grateful.
The message could be, I couldn't, I definitely
didn't make it here on my own. The message could
be, Hey, stick close to those who are your friends
or, you know, whatever it is, there's, there's
always a message. Sometimes it just takes that
extra step to think about it. And once you get
that, like, once you get clear on, Oh, this is,
this is my message. Now just, now just say it
in the most authentic way. Yeah. And you know,
all the teaching about stagecraft and gestures,
ah, there's a place for that. But like way, way
down the road. The best thing you can do is just
be authentic. And even if you're stammering and
searching for words, that's actually okay. As
long as you're present, right? Present with a
message. So if someone surprised me, so let's
say, let's say my friends all came over on my
birthday and surprised me with a surprise party.
And then they're like, speech, speech, speech.
I might have that moment of like, ah, like, I
don't know what to say. Right. But if I think
about it for a moment. Well, what's one of my
messages? One of my messages might be, I'm so
grateful for the friendships I have. And suddenly
I can, I can just start going around the room
and that can turn into a 10 minute presentation
about, you know, one thing I appreciate about
Mike at this and this and this, uh, these guys
think about our trip to Iceland, how much fun
that was. And before I know it, there's a speech,
but it's come out of a message of, of mine. Right.
Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, the word that stuck
out the most for me was authenticity. When you're
authentic, even if you don't have anything to
share, something will come up, you know, and
whatever that message is. Yeah. Yeah. And that's
a mistake I've made a lot, Mike, in the kind
of the professional speaking is that it took
me longer than it should have to be authentic.
And it was a good friend of mine who's just raw,
honest. In his presentations, he talked to me
and he said, Hey, like your audience, they're
going through their own pain, their own struggle.
Like when you share yours. And so I thought,
okay. And I, I then the next speech I did, I,
to me, what I thought was very vulnerable point.
I began sharing the story about something that
had happened with our family. And I mean, right
away, it just drew the audience like a, like
the moon draws the tide. It just drew the audience
to me. Because instead of me saying, here's the
three questions that you can ask as a leader
to connect purpose to pay, right? It was, you
know, one time this happened with my family or
this happened with my daughter or my son. And
it's a it's a vulnerable moment. And now everyone's
listening because because now your story is their
story. Yeah, I like that. Just just connecting.
in authenticity and talking about, you know,
growing your business and leadership with speaking
and things of that nature. Leadership struggles,
growing a business is what I just wrote from
my notes here. What's a leadership lesson that
every entrepreneur should learn early in their
career? Every entrepreneur, like I said, goes
into business for some reason that motivates
them. But at some point when they hire staff,
they now become a leader, not just a business
owner. And when it comes to leadership, now we're
talking people. And every leader has a natural
bent on one side of a spectrum. There's the driver
side and the builder side. So the builders, they
prioritize relationships, team, cohesion. The
drivers prioritize results. Neither is wrong
or right. And everyone's somewhere on that spectrum.
It's just that the driver's blind spot is often
pushing people at the expense of of how are the
people doing? How is the team doing? And the
builders, their blind spot is sometimes they
don't push for results because they're more concerned
about the cohesion. So which it doesn't matter
where you are. Just know that like I'm a builder
and I know that my weakness is that sometimes
I don't have high enough expectations. Okay,
great. Then let me make sure. I'm always vigilant
about that so I can bump up the expectations.
Or when my staff gives me an excuse about why
they didn't get something done, instead of just
going, oh, okay, I understand that's okay. Understand
that I often let people off the hook easy. So
let me pause on that for a little bit and think.
For the driver, they're gonna ask themselves
questions like, okay, I know we're pushing, pushing,
pushing for these results, but when's the last
time I just... even ask one of my staff how they're
doing or what did they do on the weekend or you
know I heard their mom's in the hospital how
is she yeah that's that's important so to answer
the question you've got to understand who you
are as a leader where your natural bent is lean
into that of course but make sure that you are
keeping an eye on the other side yeah it's skill
building right um we're in this Kind of new,
I don't know if it's new, but we're in this new
era, I keep saying new, in the era of, you know,
technology and, you know, people figuring out,
you know, how to create a business online and
things of that nature. What do you think is the
leadership skill that's kind of essential within
the next, you know, five to 10 years? Understanding
how AI is going to fit in with your business.
I just did a workshop teaching leaders how to
use AI to coach. how to make better decisions,
how to analyze data. And, you know, the leaders
who are not and the business owners who are not
learning how they can bring in AI, you're going
to find yourself behind. Yeah, yeah. I agree.
You know, it was such a thing for me, like, you
know, growing up, I was, you know, early in the
90s, I think I was like, Oh, computers are the
best, you know. And it was easy to do. computers
back then, you know, a little programming and
all that kind of stuff. And, you know, of course,
things, you know, transition so quickly throughout
the years. And then when I got to AI, I was like,
Oh my God, this is this is too much. But it helps
my business. And I figured, you know what, this
is I have to embrace what it is, and then find
out how to use it in my life and my business,
because it's going to be there to stay, you know?
So, that's sound advice. I want to talk about
your book a little bit. Call to Climb, right?
What inspired you to write that? The Call to
Climb came out of, I would say, a mid -life crisis.
I was in my mid -30s and I started wondering,
why am I not happy with what I'm doing? The career
I was in was highly purposeful as working for
a not -for -profit. Many people would have loved
my job. And I thought, why am I not happy with
this? But I didn't feel like I could change.
And that created sort of a, as Dr. James Hollis
says, a collision of selves. There's the self
I think I'm supposed to be, but then there's
this other self, or let's say, pushed by the
soul of doing something different. because when
your life gets out of alignment, it creates problems.
So in fact, the real inspiration of the book
came when I thought, I'm gonna go see a therapist.
And this was early 2000s. So even still then
there was this stigma, especially for men, like,
at least for me, like to go to therapy was actually
a big... Big step in because it felt like a failure
actually, but so it was a big step in that but
he gave me this book by dr James Hollis called
finding meaning in the second half of life how
to finally grow up and so I read it and it was
all about it was all about taking control back
of your life and understanding that there are
there are programs that are driving your behavior,
but that at some point everyone's life receives
a summons from the soul to come and have an appointment.
But most people ignore the appointment with the
soul. So that was the stuff he wrote about. And
it impacted me so profoundly. I ended up reading
so many of his books, contacted him online, was
able to speak with them, had them on my podcast.
But that planted the idea for the call to climb.
And the call to climb is actually written in
a fable format. It's about somebody who stumbles
into this village, remote village in Bolivia.
Only to find out that this village has been expecting
them Because it's at the foot of this mountain
and this mountain is special in that it calls
people to climb whose life is out of alignment
so that they might Finally sit down and have
a conversation with their soul a conversation.
They've been avoiding so the entire books about
that and this main character ends up climbing
up this mountain there's a guide with them the
whole way and What happens throughout the climb
they begin realizing? what's really governing
their life, what's really controlling it and
how they can take back control from fear, from
the opinions of others. And yeah, so that's,
it's, it's been 12 years in the idea stage. And
then finally, last year, we decided, all right,
let's, let's make this happen. I knew someone
at Wiley, a publisher, I'd known her for years
and she reached out and she was like, when are
you going to do this? And so I said, okay, let's
do it. And so, yeah. I need it. I always need
a deadline. So that got me that got it finished.
And now we're just waiting for it to come out.
All right. Say I was going to ask you when is
it was it going to be up? I'll be happy like
in August. Yeah, August 5. If you go to I will
climb calm, I will climb calm, you'll see all
the information for it. Awesome. All right. Because
I will get that book. Appreciate it. Yeah. Want
to wrap up a little bit here, but you do you
had some phrases collision of self Summons from
the soul call to the climb. I like I like these
In all of that, you know, it's kind of it's it's
really getting intrinsic, right? And you're a
leader you built your business and you know for
anyone less listening Can you is there one question
that you as a leader? ask yourself every day
or is there a question that leaders should ask
themselves every day? I think a great question
for leaders to ask is what's my work? And what
I mean by that is I differentiate between your
job and your work, right? So all of us have elements.
of a job, right? And there's parts of your job
that I'm sure you don't like. There's parts of
my job I don't like. I don't like being stuck
in Atlanta airport because my flight was delayed
on a layover. But it's part of my job. I don't
like that. I don't like getting on the phone
and doing sales calls as part of my job, but
it's not my work. What's your work? And so your
work is where, in a sense, your purpose and your
what I call your worthy pursuit come together,
right? Who you are and in this moment, what are
you called to bring to the world? And so what's
my work? And it's, it's not your job title. It's,
it's, it's within that, of course, but what's
my work? Okay. My work is, you know, to create
a company where my staff feel like it's a safe
place to work. My work is, is empowering leaders
so that as they're better leaders, the people
under them. are happier and they go home happier.
That's, that's what I remind myself of sitting
in Atlanta airport after another delay. Okay,
this is part of my job. Sure, I don't like this.
But what's my work? And everyone has to find
that answer for themselves. And then keep it
close. Because even the person doing bookkeeping
for the Cancer Society needs to be reminded that
I'm I'm part of something bigger person the big
as you were saying that What was there for me
was it keeps you connected to your why, your
business is what it is or why you're doing or
being who you are, being for your business and
just keeps you connected. In the moments when
you're stuck in Atlanta, the busiest airport
in the world, when you're stuck in the airport,
you know, not necessarily loving that moment,
but also loving what you do. and who you are
in it. For sure. And Mike, you and I talked about
this before we came on air, even about both of
our podcasts. Both of us have a similar start
to our podcast. It wasn't like I'm a sort of
podcast so I can get clients and make money.
It was just I'm doing this because this is something
fun for me. I like to do. I want to have guests
on that other people will listen to and it will
inspire them. That's all tied into my work. It's
not paid work, but it's still my work. And it's
your work, right? So we, we, we love doing that.
Yeah. And oftentimes I have to keep myself, you
know, you know, connected with, you know, my
purpose and my, and why we do what we do with
this podcast. And it is, it is a true love for
it. And I love having the conversations that,
you know, even though I have linear questions,
but it's, these are things I want to know from
people who have been there or have done that.
And we get to share this with people who may
be struggling with something in their business
or in their life. And they may hear something
that really sparked something within them that
may change their trajectory in whatever they're
dealing with. And that's what I love. And I hear,
not hear, but I get messages like, your podcast
is good, keep going. when in the back of your
head, it's like, are we doing anything? Do we
suck? Or are we making a difference? You know,
that little guy in the back of the head. And
so when you when I'm doubting myself, that's
a great question to ask, like, you know, what's
my work? And my work is to, you know, really
help and support people and live in their purpose
and what they're up to. So as we wrap it up,
James, What is your story that you want to share
as your last words or something that you want
to share as your last words on the podcast today?
When you think all of us one day, all of us one
day have the same final destination, and a group
of people are going to gather at our funeral.
And someone's going to read your eulogy. And
your eulogy is basically all the things you accomplished.
And it's going to take about two minutes. And
the rest of the hour is a bunch of people talking
about who you were and what you meant to them.
And I think that's one of those things to always
keep in mind. As entrepreneurs, we're always
focused on eulogy, right? Build my eulogy, but
it's going to be read in two minutes. So the
bigger way is how do I show up as my best self
for those around me? And I think that's the message
I would want to leave people with today. I like
that. How do I show up as my best best self for
the people around me? And that will, you know,
you showing up that way? will live on within
the people and it'll continue to affect people
long after we're gone, you know? And I love that.
How do people get in touch with you? I know you
shared your website for your book, but... How
else do we get in contact with your people get
in contact with you? Thank you for asking. They
can go to JamesRobbins .com. That's two B's and
Robbins. JamesRobbins .com. Find me on LinkedIn.
Tell me and let me know that you heard about
me on Mike show here. And yeah, if you want to
check out the book, I will climb .com comes out
in August. You can you can get your copy ahead
now though. Perfect. And born to climb is the
name of your podcast? Yes. Born to Climb is the
name of my podcast. All right. So check James
out. And James, thank you for being here. Truly
inspirational by listening to you. And I wanted
to get into your climbing, your climbing stories,
but maybe next time. But again, thank you for
being here. And all you listeners and watchers,
go to our Facebook group, The Tharbo Journey,
connect with us there. And as we always say,
let's make thriving our new normal. Thank you,
James. Thanks.