WEBVTT

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It's now again. My name is Jeremy West. I'm a

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mindfulness teacher and guide. And this podcast

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is a space for slow, honest conversations with

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people who have inspired me. In this episode,

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I'm joined by Mike Kaplan, comedian. This conversation

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is almost entirely about Mike's experiences with

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ayahuasca, not as a guide, not as advice, and

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not as something to seek or avoid, just as lived

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experience. We talk about fear, surrender, love,

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death. belief, and how powerful experiences can

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shift the way we relate to ourselves and the

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world. We explore what changed for him, what

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didn't, and how he thinks about meaning and spirituality

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without needing certainty. This isn't a psychedelic

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episode in the sensational sense. It's a slow,

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reflective conversation about interpretation,

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humility, and sitting honestly with big experiences.

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If you're interested in exploring this theme

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further through Mike's work, his album A .K .A.

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which draws heavily on his ayahuasca experiences,

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is available via his website at myqkaplan .com.

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Yes, Mike spells his name M -Y -Q. His newer

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comedy special, Rini, R -I -N -I, is also available

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on YouTube. You can find Mike everywhere online.

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His handle everywhere is at Mike Kaplan, M -Y

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-Q -K -A -P -L -A -N, and read his writing at

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mikekaplan .substack .com. Before we begin, a

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brief note about what I'm building. Alongside

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this podcast, I host a free secular sanctuary

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online called Calm Hours. It's a live online

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space where people can rest together without

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fixing, sharing, or performing. Cameras are optional.

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Silence is welcome. This podcast and that wider

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work are community supported. If you'd like to

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learn more or support what I'm building, you

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can find everything at jeremywest .net. For now,

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let's settle into the conversation. It's now

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again. My name is Jeremy. I'm your host. And

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today I have with me comedian and I like to say

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philosopher as well, Mike Kaplan. Mike, welcome

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to the show. Thank you for having me. Always

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a pleasure to talk to you. Fantastic. Now, you

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were on my show last year sometime. And we were

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going... I asked a number of questions that were

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similar to the questions that I normally ask

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my guests. This time, I came with one prepared

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question, and that question is only one word,

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and it is ayahuasca? Sure. Well, the answer is

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yes. So that's all the time we have for today.

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Yeah. I I'm happy to talk about my experiences

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with ayahuasca. I've talked about it a little

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bit in my comedy. You may have experienced that.

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But I think the first time I think I heard of

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it probably like 15 to 17 years ago. And it was

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sort of, you know, spoken in like hushed, fearful

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tones of. You have to go to the jungle and there's

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a shaman will help you and probably you'll throw

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up. And I was like, no, thanks. And I feel like

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that's something that, you know, might make many

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people in the shark tank offering be like, and

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for that reason, I'm out. But then knowledge

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of it came back into my life or came into my

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life again. probably about like 10 or probably

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like 11 years ago, I would say, give or take.

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And so around 2014 -ish, a friend of mine who

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I knew from doing comedy in Boston, he now works

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as a writer more than a comedian, but he told

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me about an experience that he had with ayahuasca,

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which, you know, I guess to back up for your

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listener, ayahuasca. is a psychedelic substance

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and some say an entheogen, which I believe is

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a psychedelic used for the purpose of healing

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and spiritual engagement, not just recreationally

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party time and such. Mushrooms, psilocybin, sometimes

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people use them for fun and sometimes people

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can use them for... like more therapeutic purposes.

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And sometimes it can be both and maybe sometimes

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it could be neither. But those seem like many

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of the possibilities. And so, yeah, it is. Ayahuasca

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is, I believe, comprised of two plants, one one

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bush leaf and one vine. The vine is the ayahuasca

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and the bush is called chacruna, I believe. And

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my understanding is that. The way it operates

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in the brain is that we have DMT in our brain

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and there are times during our lives when it

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will activate and we'll have the experience of

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being, you know, under the influence of this

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psychedelic substance. It's been said like when

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we die, perhaps when we're born. I've been told

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during like childbirth, but also during dreaming,

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I think is a big one. But these the combination

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of the vine and the plant, I think one delivers

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even more DMT, I think. And I'm not I'm not a

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scientist. I'm sure you could find out the exact

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data. But the other one, I think the reason that

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we're not that we have DMT in our brain, but

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the reason we're not experiencing, you know,

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hallucinations all the time is that there's like

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inhibitors on. uh on the dmt and i think maybe

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the bush one of the plants uh helps like inhibit

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the inhibitor so we then experience what's going

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on so my friend told me that he went to a guide

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who was holding a ceremony like it's often delivered

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ceremonially um i say as a joke and also sincerely

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you know In the jungles of Peru and the yoga

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studios of Brooklyn. And my friend had done it

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with this guide once. And he told me that essentially

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he had come into the experience an angry person.

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And he had left the experience a loving person.

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And here's the thing. I'll also say a couple

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things about that. One. I share a little more

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about that, his specific story in my new special,

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which will be out later this year, called Rini,

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named after Rini, my girlfriend, and co -created

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with Rini, my girlfriend, the aforementioned

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titular Rini. So I won't do the jokes now, but

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basically my friend told me that he really struggled

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with anger. To be clear, you can be both, you

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know, you can be fully loving and angry. You

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know, those are both human experiences that aren't

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necessarily mutually exclusive. And you just

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might not be maybe I mean, you could be loving

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someone or something angrily, perhaps. Regardless,

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let's not get too far down that rabbit hole.

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But my friend just told me he had this transformative

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experience and that he had. not been a person

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who was particularly spiritual, that he wasn't

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a kind of person who believed in auras, you know,

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but during this experience that he had, he did

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see, he thought he, he was like, I see auras,

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like of the other people in the experience, and

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he's like, I know it sounds kind of corny, or

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like hackneyed, the idea that, oh man, we're

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all one, we're all the same guy, but he's like,

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but that's what it, It felt like that's what

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he experienced, and I actually didn't really

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know this friend at his angriest, but I do know

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him now to be one of the most loving people that

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I know, so I feel like he seems right. It had

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that effect, and the way that he described it

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made me want to do it, even at the risk of having

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to expel, throw up, from my body um so i asked

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him about excuse me where he you know how how

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did it come about could i participate and he

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connected me with the the group of people who

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he had been doing it with and uh i reached out

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and then went with him to i guess what was his

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second time and then my first and uh it was a

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pretty big it was I imagine it was for like 30

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-ish people or something, sort of lining the

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walls of this meditation studio, yoga studio,

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dance studio. I'm not sure what the space was

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exactly. But the guide who officiated the ceremony,

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he actually wasn't there when we got there. I

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think we arrived at like 8 p .m., let's say,

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and sort of got settled. The experience we were

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told would be, you know, could be four hours,

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give or take, could have been five, that we'd

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be there for a little while into the night. So

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we brought, you know, encouraged to bring yoga

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mat, sleeping bag, you know, something to make

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ourselves comfortable. And so I set up my spot.

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And after I got settled, the guide showed up

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and, you know, greeted people he knew and then

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came around to each one of us. He introduced

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himself, and this is something that I do say

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on stage sometimes, but is also just the definitive

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what happened. The guy had said to me, have you

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had this experience before? Because he knew I

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hadn't done it with him. And I said, no, I have

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not done ayahuasca before. And he said, have

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you done mushrooms? And I said, yes, I have done

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mushrooms. And he said, good, good, good. It's

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very different. That one I wrote a joke about

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that I haven't, I don't think I have put this

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on an album, but the idea that basically it would

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be like, I understand now why he would say that,

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like why compare it to something that it's different

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than, but it would be like if you met somebody

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who had never had chocolate and they were like,

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what's chocolate like? And you're like, I don't

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know. Have you ever had a potato? Well. They're

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very different, but, you know, they're both food.

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They're both brown. They go both go into your

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body. They go through the system. And then. Like,

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you know, I had had experiences with mushrooms

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and, you know, the very first time I did mushrooms,

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that was something that I an experience that

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I couldn't have imagined or predicted or don't

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even know how someone would have described it

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to me. If they had like they say sometimes, you

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know, if you want to know what a kiwi tastes

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like. I mean, you can do as much research as

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you want to. You can interview everyone who's

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ever had a kiwi. You can get them to describe

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it as explicitly as possible. But until you taste

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that kiwi yourself, you're not going to really

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know what it tastes like. So the first experience

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I had with ayahuasca, like, it... Now I feel

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like I've done it many times, and so... I don't

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remember all of exactly what I, you know, felt

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physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.

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During each time, I sort of remember, like, vague

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things. I'm like, oh, yeah, the first time, I

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mean, I definitely felt, like, initially, like,

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unlike anything that I'd ever experienced. Like,

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you know, with mushrooms, sometimes I would feel...

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it felt like maybe it would mushrooms would be

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like creeping up through like my the back of

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my head and kind of like like grabbing onto it

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or like spreading through it in some way being

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like you know like if you you know spill water

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on a paper towel and then it just you know sort

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of seeps like it gets infused into it and travels

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through it that's the way that mushrooms felt

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like but like kind of like i was like oh yeah

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i'm me and this is oh my my head feels a little

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different this is something that ayahuasca more

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kind of like took over i don't know if that's

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the right i don't know if any language will be

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the right language but it like got me even more

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like gripped me like from within and then kind

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of like i remember this this story i learned

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as like some our teacher read to us and then

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later i found like a version of it in a graphic

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novel uh So I don't know where it came from originally,

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but the story is like a boy like can't control

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his hand falls asleep and he can't control it.

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But then it like starts to try to choke him.

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And then they like tie him down. And this is

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a long thing. And eventually he's like, I can't

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move many parts of his body. And it like kind

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of travels up his body until eventually like

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he goes blind and deaf. And, you know, it. it

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completely so you know consumes him and then

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but from the outside at the end of the story

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he just gets out of bed and he's like i'm okay

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now but he's like been you know replaced by this

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whatever entity has you know seeped through his

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entire being and so ayahuasca is kind of like

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that except uh afterwards i'm you know i mean

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i'm quote unquote still me like you know i uh

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But I mean, I was changed in ways, but in positive

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ways. Like I remember feeling like I was, I mean,

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I feel like now my friend being like, yeah, I

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don't really believe in auras, but I saw them.

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I felt like I was like comprised of love. Like

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I was like, it just felt like I was, you know,

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sort of. uh be taken over by visited by like

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in touch with like just you know loving a loving

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presence or like you know just the epitome of

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love itself like love just and it was like it

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took a little while sometimes i know ramdas talks

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about when you either do it have an experience

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like this or even just in a meditation practice

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there might be like an asteroid belt that you

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have to get through that you know like kind of

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rocks you and uh you know throws you about and

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shakes you up and then you get through to the

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other side and you're like ah here i am now no

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more asteroids hitting me and so it was kind

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of like like you know the beginning of it i was

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like well this is these are physical sensations

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i've never experienced but I knew to expect something,

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not that I had never experienced before. And

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throughout the experience, throughout the many

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hours, the guide begins the ceremony with, I

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mean, we all sort of like take one by one, go

00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:04.159
up and take a drink. It's like in a little shot

00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:09.480
glass. It tastes also different than it's, I

00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:11.580
wouldn't say it's like the most flavorful thing

00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:14.580
I've ever had. But but it's it's interesting.

00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.679
And then we go back to our seats and then after

00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:19.259
a little while, you know, the light he turns

00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:23.419
the lights out. And he starts to sing and the

00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:26.059
things that he sings, they're called Icaros.

00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:30.080
And they're kind of like, I guess, somewhere

00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:34.000
between a song and a mantra. They're beautiful.

00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.580
His voice is beautiful. There are some a friend

00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:43.250
of mine recently. The guide that I'm speaking

00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:51.250
of actually died recently, very sadly. And in

00:16:51.250 --> 00:16:54.509
the aftermath of that, a friend of mine who knew

00:16:54.509 --> 00:17:00.570
him as well found a podcast that he had. It was

00:17:00.570 --> 00:17:02.350
like a documentary, like an audio documentary

00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:08.150
that was looking into and discussing ayahuasca

00:17:08.150 --> 00:17:10.920
and plant medicine. So there's part of it where

00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.779
our guide is singing, like, and some, I reckon,

00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.720
I think I did one or two of the Icaros, but I

00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:22.420
definitely like powerfully recognize one and

00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:25.319
it, you know, can even sometimes, sometimes I

00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.259
sing them to myself in the shower. The ones that

00:17:27.259 --> 00:17:29.640
I, you know, remember and resonate with her when

00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:34.700
I'm driving or they're just like these, uh, I

00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:36.259
guess, I mean, maybe they're different for everyone,

00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:39.630
but my understanding is that. And physiologically,

00:17:39.809 --> 00:17:43.049
they are meant to potentially stimulate the pineal

00:17:43.049 --> 00:17:46.809
gland, which is active in the process of the

00:17:46.809 --> 00:17:49.650
experience. But also, you know, just sort of

00:17:49.650 --> 00:17:52.769
maybe on a more metaphorical, if not metaphysical

00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:55.670
level, the guide will say, like, you know, you

00:17:55.670 --> 00:17:57.750
can follow the songs like there's something that's

00:17:57.750 --> 00:18:02.210
happening in the room in in quote unquote reality

00:18:02.210 --> 00:18:05.029
that you can that can be grounding that you can

00:18:05.029 --> 00:18:09.970
listen to. That ultimately, you know, he says

00:18:09.970 --> 00:18:11.730
sometimes you'll have vision, sometimes you'll

00:18:11.730 --> 00:18:15.130
see, you know, hallucinations, but those aren't

00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:19.289
the point that but they're like the songs and

00:18:19.289 --> 00:18:23.329
the sites are sort of like the. The canvas upon

00:18:23.329 --> 00:18:27.150
which, you know, the emotional inner experience

00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:31.549
happens like, I guess. The thing that it may

00:18:31.549 --> 00:18:34.930
be most similar to is a dream, at least like

00:18:34.930 --> 00:18:37.410
experientially, like to someone who's never done

00:18:37.410 --> 00:18:39.710
any psychedelics, who's never done a, you know,

00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:43.769
classic like mind altering substance. I mean,

00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:45.730
I think every substance is mind altering. Like

00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:48.549
you're hungry, you eat food, your mind is altered.

00:18:48.690 --> 00:18:50.970
Now you're like, I'm not hungry anymore. That's

00:18:50.970 --> 00:18:53.670
happening in your mind. But also I know what

00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:55.329
they're talking about when they say mind. If

00:18:55.329 --> 00:18:57.569
you've never had a mind altering substance. And

00:18:57.569 --> 00:19:00.450
I had to describe to you what an ayahuasca trip

00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:05.349
is like. I would say it's like a lucid -ish dream.

00:19:05.849 --> 00:19:08.849
Like, I mean, it's not even, like, I don't know

00:19:08.849 --> 00:19:11.250
that I could say that I could control what's

00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:16.769
happening. But, and it's not even, I guess, it's

00:19:16.769 --> 00:19:18.630
different every time. So it's hard to say even,

00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:21.789
like, you know, maybe sometimes I'm there in

00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:23.529
the first person. Sometimes, like, you know,

00:19:23.529 --> 00:19:25.990
different people's faces will pop up. Sometimes

00:19:25.990 --> 00:19:29.950
it's... swirling visuals of kind of like colors

00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:33.190
and shapes, like hieroglyphics and ancient seeming

00:19:33.190 --> 00:19:36.190
things. And for this, actually, I mean, we're

00:19:36.190 --> 00:19:39.250
so fortunate. One of the things like, you know,

00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:42.950
the internet offers is if you search like ayahuasca

00:19:42.950 --> 00:19:47.410
art, you'll see a lot of like super creative,

00:19:47.549 --> 00:19:50.529
colorful stuff. And a lot of, you know, a lot

00:19:50.529 --> 00:19:52.869
of different people creating a lot of some, some

00:19:52.869 --> 00:19:56.569
really similar things, like very. like rainbow

00:19:56.569 --> 00:20:00.069
infused colorful like sometimes there's like

00:20:00.069 --> 00:20:03.349
a purple lady that people multiple people have

00:20:03.349 --> 00:20:05.809
seen and they're like yeah that lady the ayahuasca

00:20:05.809 --> 00:20:09.690
lady the universe lady that goddess lady or whoever

00:20:09.690 --> 00:20:14.190
or whatever and uh so that's all happening like

00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:18.230
uh image wise so yeah the first time that first

00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:23.470
time i i don't remember it was just kind of like

00:20:23.470 --> 00:20:27.640
a really you know ultimately like warm and welcoming

00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:31.940
like introduction to this world and I know that

00:20:31.940 --> 00:20:34.579
for some people and for myself included eventually

00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:39.740
like it's not just purely joyful like any any

00:20:39.740 --> 00:20:43.160
psychedelic uh other than maybe I mean I guess

00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.839
ecstasy or molly or not necessarily your classic

00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:51.079
psychedelics but for mushrooms for lsd for ayahuasca

00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:56.230
for things like that um Like, there's certainly

00:20:56.230 --> 00:20:59.549
no guarantee of it going a certain way. It's

00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:03.089
like the first time I did it, it felt beautiful

00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:06.930
and I just wanted to experience it again. And

00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:08.650
then I had a second, the second time I did it

00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:12.869
was probably a month or two later. I think about

00:21:12.869 --> 00:21:15.490
a month. Yeah, I think about a month later. And

00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:18.549
same guide. I think it might have been in the

00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:21.589
same place. I think it might have been a different

00:21:21.589 --> 00:21:27.720
yoga studio or something. But similar vibes,

00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.599
like kind of like a way I put it sometimes is

00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.319
like, you know, the Twilight Zone. Every episode

00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.460
of the Twilight Zone features a different story,

00:21:36.619 --> 00:21:39.359
different characters, different actors. Like,

00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.200
what is the thing that makes it the Twilight

00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.599
Zone? Why are they all Twilight Zone episodes?

00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:48.750
And I think it's that. I mean, there's a feel,

00:21:49.009 --> 00:21:52.589
a theme and, you know, a vibe and aura like it's

00:21:52.589 --> 00:21:54.650
like, oh, yeah, the feel of it is the same. And

00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:57.529
so similarly for you younger people, that's like

00:21:57.529 --> 00:22:05.009
Black Mirror. Yeah, it is like that. And so this

00:22:05.009 --> 00:22:09.269
is like Rainbow Mirror. And the second time,

00:22:09.269 --> 00:22:16.529
like it was also similarly like Love. infused

00:22:16.529 --> 00:22:20.950
and beautiful feeling and there were some different

00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:23.509
like physical sensations like at one point I

00:22:23.509 --> 00:22:26.289
remember feeling like a vibration in my chest

00:22:26.289 --> 00:22:31.789
like and it was you know if it happened not under

00:22:31.789 --> 00:22:34.349
the influence of a substance I would have been

00:22:34.349 --> 00:22:37.269
concerned and went to the hospital uh because

00:22:37.269 --> 00:22:41.950
it was just like very like vibrational I don't

00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:45.519
know that doesn't describe it Uh, specifically,

00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:51.579
but, uh, it just, I've, it felt like everything

00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:54.420
was operating on all cylinders, both, you know,

00:22:54.420 --> 00:23:00.900
like my body, my mind, you know, my heart and

00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:05.940
yeah, I don't, I don't remember specifically

00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:11.200
what all happened, but I do remember more the

00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.660
third time I did it. uh that's one that i talk

00:23:14.660 --> 00:23:20.200
about a little bit in my album aka where this

00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:23.200
is the first time that i felt really bad for

00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:27.359
a while during it and part of it was just i think

00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.039
maybe i had eaten too much like they always usually

00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.380
there's like a specific diet and a specific like

00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:37.720
time frame of when to you know eat not eat what

00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:42.650
to eat what to not eat drink and such and Like

00:23:42.650 --> 00:23:45.789
there was just physiologically stuff going on

00:23:45.789 --> 00:23:49.170
in my system. But then that sort of got translated

00:23:49.170 --> 00:23:52.450
into like I was in physical pain for a little

00:23:52.450 --> 00:23:57.369
like in my stomach. And that also then sort of

00:23:57.369 --> 00:24:02.529
manifested as like reminders of emotional pain

00:24:02.529 --> 00:24:06.950
that I had experienced or inflicted. And so I

00:24:06.950 --> 00:24:09.990
sort of like it didn't feel if that was like

00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:13.019
the first experience I had with it. I probably

00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:15.200
wouldn't have gone back if it was only that,

00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:18.720
like, uh, but yeah, I'm like, you know how the,

00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:23.839
the caricature of the scary, like when parents

00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:27.079
tell their kids, look out for drug dealers, like

00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:29.599
they'll give you the first one for free to try

00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.319
to get you hooked. And I'm like, did ayahuasca

00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:34.839
give me the first two joyful experiences for

00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.779
free to try to get me hooked? And now here I

00:24:37.779 --> 00:24:40.880
am and I'm in pain and that's, what's going to

00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:49.410
be. But ultimately, I mean, I think that the

00:24:49.410 --> 00:24:52.789
pain I felt was important and meaningful and

00:24:52.789 --> 00:24:56.509
valuable. And like I learned, like I learned

00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:00.410
some lessons and I, you know, reflected on various

00:25:00.410 --> 00:25:03.849
experiences that I'd had in my past. And by the

00:25:03.849 --> 00:25:10.930
end of it, I actually was able to help my body

00:25:10.930 --> 00:25:14.420
feel. And so even at the end of it, I was like,

00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.539
oh, even if this was the whole thing, it would

00:25:17.539 --> 00:25:20.500
have been worth it. Like, you know, sometimes

00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:23.900
there is a painful journey to, you know, reach

00:25:23.900 --> 00:25:30.559
a meaningful, like gratitude filled conclusion.

00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:36.039
And yeah, it's I remember a few months later,

00:25:36.140 --> 00:25:40.049
I did like two. back to back you know like a

00:25:40.049 --> 00:25:43.730
Saturday night and a Sunday night ceremony where

00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:46.809
like the Saturday night one I remember feeling

00:25:46.809 --> 00:25:49.430
like I don't think I don't think there were many

00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:52.150
like visuals at all I just felt kind of a clarity

00:25:52.150 --> 00:25:54.930
of purpose and I like I felt it was like many

00:25:54.930 --> 00:25:58.210
more mental than anything else and it was that

00:25:58.210 --> 00:26:01.130
was actually that when I the album aka that I

00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:04.490
recorded in 2019 I think this is 2014 like five

00:26:04.490 --> 00:26:07.230
years earlier it was the first time that I I

00:26:07.230 --> 00:26:09.670
conceived of the idea of creating that album,

00:26:09.789 --> 00:26:12.390
creating like an hour of comedy kind of about

00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:18.710
kindness and love and non -murdering specifically.

00:26:19.589 --> 00:26:23.250
And so I remember thinking about it. There was

00:26:23.250 --> 00:26:25.490
a lot of thinking in that one. And I remember

00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:30.710
one thing that I thought was like, like I had

00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:34.650
this mantra, always love, always forgive. And

00:26:34.650 --> 00:26:37.059
it's interesting. I remember. A few years later,

00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.380
I would have a friend on my podcast, the comedian

00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:43.799
John Fuglesang. And John Fuglesang is brilliant,

00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:49.720
hilarious and super well educated, like religiously

00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:54.240
and politically. But in religion, like my understanding,

00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.279
he was raised by a man who had been a priest

00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.539
and a woman who had been a nun who both left

00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:04.839
and then had him and raised him. And he told

00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.380
me. in this conversation that there is only two

00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:11.259
things that God cannot do. Uh, and those two

00:27:11.259 --> 00:27:16.619
things are God can never, that God can't stop

00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:20.799
forgiving you and God can't stop loving you.

00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.380
Uh, and so it's interesting. I never thought

00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:27.920
about the connection, but a few years earlier,

00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:30.480
I had the, had this experience during this ayahuasca,

00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:36.559
uh, time in, I think February of 20. 14 or so,

00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.759
give or take a year. And I remember it was like

00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:42.759
Super Bowl weekend and a friend of mine was there.

00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:46.859
And everyone, you know, because there's a possibility

00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:49.359
of what they call cleansing or purging, which

00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:53.420
some others might call puking. Everyone has a

00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:55.799
little bucket, you know, that they're given at

00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.279
the you can keep near you. So you don't have

00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:00.519
to if you can't make it to the bathroom, you

00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:05.200
can puke in a bucket. And I think. Either my

00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:09.359
friend or someone near us had done that. And

00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.660
when because it was it was literally Super Bowl

00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:13.460
Sunday. So it was the next night after the one

00:28:13.460 --> 00:28:15.880
I was just talking about. But the guide came

00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.200
around and saw it. And he was like, you know,

00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:24.380
not Super Bowl, Super Bucket. And but so I had

00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:26.640
this clarity of purpose to create this hour of

00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.220
comedy. Always love, always forgive. And I was

00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:34.160
like imagining sort of other. sides of it like

00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.420
or other like i don't know uh if i had to be

00:28:37.420 --> 00:28:39.279
in a debate like well if somebody was like but

00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:43.059
what about hitler but what about this but what

00:28:43.059 --> 00:28:47.039
about that like oh as always love always forgive

00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:50.380
and i'm like always always love always forgive

00:28:50.380 --> 00:28:53.680
in this kind of you know regimented way that

00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:59.410
the next night i found myself like feeling physically

00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:03.349
weaker and more emotionally sensitive and i felt

00:29:03.349 --> 00:29:08.369
like then i i felt like the the perspective have

00:29:08.369 --> 00:29:13.829
shifted and i felt like i was now under the influence

00:29:13.829 --> 00:29:17.490
or being barraged by the same energy that i was

00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:19.650
it wasn't like i was actually yelling at anybody

00:29:19.650 --> 00:29:23.450
but like i'm like come on you gotta forgive everyone

00:29:23.450 --> 00:29:25.670
you always have to always love always forgive

00:29:25.670 --> 00:29:29.910
and The next night, I felt like I was sort of

00:29:29.910 --> 00:29:33.289
the on the receiving end of that aggressive,

00:29:33.390 --> 00:29:37.690
loving or aggressive love inspired energy where

00:29:37.690 --> 00:29:40.990
I was like, I'm just scared and I'm, you know,

00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:43.769
feel kind of worn out. And I'm just, yeah, but

00:29:43.769 --> 00:29:48.549
help. And and so that also, like, I feel like

00:29:48.549 --> 00:29:53.910
had this. Like lesson like experience of, you

00:29:53.910 --> 00:29:57.589
know. Even if I have clarity of purpose and this,

00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:03.089
you know, seemingly like, you know, unbeatable

00:30:03.089 --> 00:30:05.970
perspective, I'm like, you know, maybe I'm not

00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:09.089
right about everything. Maybe I'm maybe, you

00:30:09.089 --> 00:30:10.950
know, I could do to think about other people's

00:30:10.950 --> 00:30:13.470
perspectives and where they are and where they're

00:30:13.470 --> 00:30:15.829
coming from. And even because sometimes the other

00:30:15.829 --> 00:30:19.710
person will be me. And also, in some ways, it'll

00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:26.769
all be, you know, we're all we're all us. Then,

00:30:26.769 --> 00:30:29.750
I wonder if that was 2015. There was a time,

00:30:29.829 --> 00:30:36.829
I know in 2015, I had to move. I was living with

00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:39.190
a buddy of mine and he moved in with his girlfriend

00:30:39.190 --> 00:30:42.009
and so I had a two -bedroom apartment that was

00:30:42.009 --> 00:30:45.720
more than I needed and I was going to be... A

00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.180
new girlfriend that I'd been seeing lived in

00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:50.299
Los Angeles and she was moving across the country

00:30:50.299 --> 00:30:52.019
to move in with me. But we didn't need a two

00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:54.140
bedroom apartment. So we started looking for

00:30:54.140 --> 00:30:57.519
a new apartment together in like July of 2015.

00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:03.660
Is that Rini? No, Rini I would meet in 2016.

00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:12.339
Okay. Yeah. But this is Casey was her name. And

00:31:12.339 --> 00:31:18.460
Casey. Actually, I think coined this term for

00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:20.640
like when people are like, what do you get from

00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:23.200
ayahuasca? Like, you know, you throw up. It can

00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:25.599
be really painful. It can be, you know, like

00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:28.519
delving deep into your psyche in ways that maybe

00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:30.880
you don't want to. Like, what's good about it?

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:35.200
And the way I think that Casey put it for the

00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:40.640
first time was like some of it is like life coaching,

00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:44.119
you know, like and some of it, she said, is like.

00:31:44.539 --> 00:31:50.819
quote -unquote death coaching and so like this

00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:52.779
uh i'll i guess i'll do the life coaching one

00:31:52.779 --> 00:31:55.759
first and then the describe delve more into death

00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:59.099
coaching but you know this particular time in

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:01.700
july of 2015 when casey was moving when we were

00:32:01.700 --> 00:32:05.000
looking for an apartment it was like fourth of

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.700
july weekend and we'd seen a few apartments uh

00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:12.039
leading up to the weekend and we hadn't found

00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:15.210
anything that we really you know looked good

00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:17.609
to us and it was like you know for i'll speak

00:32:17.609 --> 00:32:20.069
for myself a little stressful you know moving

00:32:20.069 --> 00:32:26.950
is uh can be difficult and but here's the the

00:32:26.950 --> 00:32:28.609
thought i had was like okay well it's fourth

00:32:28.609 --> 00:32:31.190
of july weekend like there's nothing that can

00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:33.910
we can't do anything now everyone's like on holiday

00:32:33.910 --> 00:32:37.890
everyone's off so let's just go do an ayahuasca

00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:41.700
ceremony and Like, that'll be a nice break from

00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:44.640
apartment searching and from the anxiety involved

00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.259
in that. Just have a completely different experience.

00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:53.799
And the plant was like, I mean, or my brain was

00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:57.440
like, well, actually, you're worried about this

00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.960
thing. You're scared about this thing. Well,

00:33:00.099 --> 00:33:02.039
maybe that's what you'll think about and deal

00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:05.619
with the whole time during this experience. And

00:33:05.619 --> 00:33:11.029
so I feel like. What it did for me was I was

00:33:11.029 --> 00:33:14.049
like, I had the thought in my head during that

00:33:14.049 --> 00:33:18.910
ceremony, like, I'm scared. And I'm like, scared

00:33:18.910 --> 00:33:24.069
of what? Like in this housing seeking process.

00:33:24.670 --> 00:33:27.190
I was like, well, I guess I'm scared that we

00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:31.410
won't find a new place that's good or at all.

00:33:32.009 --> 00:33:34.369
And I was like, okay, well, then what? Well,

00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:37.240
I mean, well, I guess. I'm scared that we'll

00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.519
have to keep living in this too big, too expensive

00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.099
apartment for another month or until we find

00:33:43.099 --> 00:33:45.819
a place. I guess that's not the scariest thing.

00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:49.299
Or I'm scared that we'll have to like stay in

00:33:49.299 --> 00:33:51.200
a hotel. Probably we won't have to do that because

00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:56.099
we could stay with my mom or my dad or any number

00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:59.660
of friends who have a guest room or a couch or,

00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:04.660
you know. my grandmother's uh home in florida

00:34:04.660 --> 00:34:08.880
or like oh yeah so that or i don't like i'm not

00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:12.420
concerned that we'll be living on the street

00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:14.699
i'm like well what if i'm i'm scared that i we

00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:17.360
it won't be the exact the best place for us like

00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.340
what if it's too far from the train or too small

00:34:19.340 --> 00:34:22.320
or too big or too expensive or to this or to

00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:26.260
that and i basically like you know enumerated

00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:30.039
all of the potential possibilities of what could

00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.199
happen that wouldn't be my favorite way for it

00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:35.940
to go. And I came out at the end of it with like,

00:34:36.099 --> 00:34:39.719
OK, well, none of those things are scary. None

00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:43.619
of them scare me that like some of them are unpleasant.

00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.219
Some of them suck. I was like, it's kind of like

00:34:46.219 --> 00:34:49.599
the the slogan of that trip was like, it might

00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:54.420
suck, but it's not scary. And so that I feel

00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:57.539
like helped me and taught me to sort of examine.

00:34:58.170 --> 00:35:00.010
You know, the stories that I was telling myself

00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:05.190
about, like, I mean, I wasn't even really thinking

00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:09.190
it through. I just had this anxiety. I had this

00:35:09.190 --> 00:35:12.969
fear. And so that the plant medicine helped,

00:35:13.030 --> 00:35:19.489
like, helped me help myself suss out what I actually,

00:35:19.530 --> 00:35:22.010
you know, what was I worried about? What was

00:35:22.010 --> 00:35:24.840
I scared of? Was I scared? What? And so that

00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.920
really felt like a life coaching experience of

00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:32.699
it. Now, the death coaching is sort of like back

00:35:32.699 --> 00:35:36.239
to the first, or I guess the third one. The third

00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.539
time I did it was the first time a good buddy

00:35:38.539 --> 00:35:42.659
of mine did it with me as well. And the way he

00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:46.659
put it when we sort of debriefed afterwards,

00:35:47.139 --> 00:35:51.039
he was like, it kind of seemed like all of the

00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:55.059
colorful shapes. hieroglyphic type things swirling

00:35:55.059 --> 00:35:58.739
around. He named it, quote, the pattern. He's

00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:00.880
like, oh, it seems like the pattern kind of represents,

00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.800
you know, the universe, all of the consciousness,

00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:08.639
the ocean of everything. And that like we human

00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.639
incarnations, you know, we come, you know, Alan

00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:13.559
Watts says we don't come into this world, we

00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:17.880
come out of it. Like we weren't somewhere else.

00:36:17.900 --> 00:36:21.420
There's just everything that is. And like a wave

00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:23.570
comes out of the ocean. You know, like, hey,

00:36:23.630 --> 00:36:25.389
where'd that wave come from? Well, it was ocean.

00:36:25.909 --> 00:36:27.929
It's still ocean when it's wave. And then it

00:36:27.929 --> 00:36:30.170
goes back into ocean and isn't wave anymore,

00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:34.690
but is still ocean. And so that's the way my

00:36:34.690 --> 00:36:43.530
friend viewed the bulging, like, the consciousness

00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:47.329
bulging out of the pattern and then eventually

00:36:47.329 --> 00:36:51.130
at the end of life sort of just subsiding back

00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:56.250
into it. And a nice sort of metaphorical way

00:36:56.250 --> 00:36:58.170
of thinking about it is like, okay, well, we're

00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:00.309
all connected at the bottom up. We're all connected

00:37:00.309 --> 00:37:04.829
by, you know, virtue of the fact that we are

00:37:04.829 --> 00:37:09.269
matter and energy that is part of the universe.

00:37:09.409 --> 00:37:11.409
We're all part of the universe. Like I'm this

00:37:11.409 --> 00:37:13.530
part, you're that part. It feels like we might

00:37:13.530 --> 00:37:16.269
be separate, but we're connected at the bottom.

00:37:16.309 --> 00:37:18.989
Or like Ram Dass sometimes talks about like the

00:37:18.989 --> 00:37:24.380
spokes of a wheel. Uh, like we're all like our

00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:26.340
identities, our separate identities are on the

00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.199
outside of the wheel. So like I'm over here,

00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.719
you're over there, but the spokes all connect

00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.820
in the middle. Like we're all coming from that

00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:41.659
same place. And I feel like as a metaphor, you

00:37:41.659 --> 00:37:45.099
know, our consciousness bulges out into our incarnations.

00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:47.539
And then sometimes, you know, so we're all connected

00:37:47.539 --> 00:37:49.119
at the bottom, but sometimes we connect at the

00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.690
top when we. fall in love or make friends or

00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:56.650
like care about people or other or animals or

00:37:56.650 --> 00:38:00.010
art and music. Like when a comedian makes an

00:38:00.010 --> 00:38:02.250
audience laugh, like that's, you know, these

00:38:02.250 --> 00:38:06.349
two theoretically separate bulges, you know,

00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:08.969
connecting and resonating on the, you know, being

00:38:08.969 --> 00:38:12.849
on the same page and the same frequency. And

00:38:12.849 --> 00:38:15.610
so it was kind of that and that, like, you know,

00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:17.449
when he did, my friend described his experience

00:38:17.449 --> 00:38:21.639
of that, I'm like, yeah, that all. That language

00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.559
makes sense. That description makes sense. That

00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:30.219
like it resonates. And so I felt like I would

00:38:30.219 --> 00:38:34.019
say before I had that ayahuasca experience, like

00:38:34.019 --> 00:38:36.340
my, you know, my friend came in angry and left

00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:40.239
loving. My experience of that was I came in like

00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.920
maybe afraid of death and left like, you know,

00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:47.090
I'm not saying that. I don't still sometimes

00:38:47.090 --> 00:38:50.050
think about death and be like, oh, that's good.

00:38:50.710 --> 00:38:57.610
But I I'm much less. Worried about it now because

00:38:57.610 --> 00:39:01.429
of, you know, if not only the the the idea behind

00:39:01.429 --> 00:39:03.849
the spirit of the visualization of like, you

00:39:03.849 --> 00:39:07.190
know, the wave coming and the wave going, which

00:39:07.190 --> 00:39:10.610
is the guide would sometimes tell us like beforehand,

00:39:10.989 --> 00:39:12.849
you know, is like anybody new here, just so you

00:39:12.849 --> 00:39:17.130
know, like. The experience, like the effects

00:39:17.130 --> 00:39:20.570
come and the effects go. And that's true for,

00:39:20.570 --> 00:39:22.630
you know, a psychedelic experience. That's true

00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:25.030
for any emotional experience. That's true for,

00:39:25.030 --> 00:39:28.489
you know, pretty much any phenomenon in in our

00:39:28.489 --> 00:39:31.150
lives, like the feelings we're having now are

00:39:31.150 --> 00:39:33.809
not the ones we were having a week ago, a day

00:39:33.809 --> 00:39:40.289
ago, a year ago. And so that's the death coaching

00:39:40.289 --> 00:39:45.820
aspect of it is like, oh, yeah. Like, yes, we

00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:50.940
will die, but it didn't seem as terrifying as

00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:56.760
the concept of death once did. It's so interesting,

00:39:56.820 --> 00:39:58.599
too, because, like, you know, we're all each

00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:00.519
having our own individual experience, but, you

00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:02.519
know, there could be other people having potentially

00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:06.019
similar ones, but also other people having really

00:40:06.019 --> 00:40:13.980
different ones. And... The guide would sometimes

00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:16.280
say like, you know, sometimes people think that

00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:19.840
doing ayahuasca will make you powerful or stronger

00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:22.760
or smarter or better in some way. And he's like,

00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:26.260
it's not that. He says it's like a spiritual

00:40:26.260 --> 00:40:32.559
GPS. It helps tell you where you are. And like

00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:34.559
some people come in with intentions and questions

00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:38.809
and like. Some people don't. I think my, our

00:40:38.809 --> 00:40:41.550
guy did not recommend coming in with such things.

00:40:41.610 --> 00:40:44.969
He's like, it'll tell you or show you what you

00:40:44.969 --> 00:40:47.949
need. Like what happened to me for that, you

00:40:47.949 --> 00:40:57.389
know, real estate based trip. And yeah, it just,

00:40:57.570 --> 00:41:02.449
it's been a valuable tool. Like for a while I

00:41:02.449 --> 00:41:07.789
was doing it like many times a year. In 2015,

00:41:07.969 --> 00:41:12.570
I went to Peru with the guide where he was Peruvian.

00:41:12.570 --> 00:41:15.010
He lived in the States at the time, but he would

00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:18.889
take groups to Peru. And we did it in the mountains

00:41:18.889 --> 00:41:25.630
in a city called Lares, I believe, which was

00:41:25.630 --> 00:41:30.369
sort of we flew into Lima, then to Cusco, and

00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:33.710
then drove from Cusco to Lares. And I was there

00:41:33.710 --> 00:41:38.289
for a week and I think we did five, maybe four

00:41:38.289 --> 00:41:41.070
or five ceremonies in that week. And then one

00:41:41.070 --> 00:41:45.469
other plant called San Pedro. But at least four,

00:41:45.530 --> 00:41:47.489
maybe five ayahuasca ceremonies, but also kind

00:41:47.489 --> 00:41:50.650
of that whole week became its own, a whole kind

00:41:50.650 --> 00:41:54.929
of meta or macro ceremony of a kind. Like the

00:41:54.929 --> 00:41:57.409
first night was kind of introductory and the

00:41:57.409 --> 00:41:59.369
last night was kind of, you know, like the sunset.

00:41:59.909 --> 00:42:03.019
But in the middle, there was like one. big one

00:42:03.019 --> 00:42:08.340
there was one big one where the guide like you

00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:12.619
know the guide is always also taking a dose and

00:42:12.619 --> 00:42:15.119
this was the first time that i had ever seen

00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:17.039
him and maybe the only time that i had ever seen

00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:25.619
him impacted by it like at the very end uh there's

00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:30.039
this the thing that normally he To start the

00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:33.039
ceremony and to end the ceremony, he'll ring

00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:37.920
a chime of a certain kind, like these three bells.

00:42:39.460 --> 00:42:41.659
And then at the end, he'll ring the same three

00:42:41.659 --> 00:42:45.519
bells. And then as the sound subsides, he would

00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.780
always say something. This is not the exact language,

00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.119
but sometimes, some of it, the exact language

00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.539
every time. He would say, well, well, dear sisters,

00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.219
brothers. We are in the finish of our ceremony

00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:02.679
for tonight. One more time, I'd like to give

00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:06.119
thanks to Mother Ayahuasca for she gives teachings

00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:10.139
and medicine. One more time, I'd like to give

00:43:10.139 --> 00:43:13.400
thanks to Mother Earth for she gives food, home,

00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:17.800
path, and work. And like always, I'd like to

00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:20.760
say thanks to our creator of the heaven and the

00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:24.219
earth, Love, our true master. So thank you so

00:43:24.219 --> 00:43:27.460
much for... Coming together tonight and making

00:43:27.460 --> 00:43:30.659
possible this meeting with ayahuasca like a meditation.

00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:38.760
Thank you so much. And this time in the middle

00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:41.860
of that ceremony, or at the end of that ceremony,

00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.480
in the middle of the week, in the middle of the

00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:48.480
macro ceremony, like we were all, there was probably

00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.699
like eight of us total. And I mean, I'll speak

00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:55.099
for myself. It was the strongest one that week,

00:43:55.239 --> 00:44:00.079
and it seemed that way for him, too, because

00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.699
as he got to the part where he says, normally

00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:04.840
he says, I'd like to thank Mother Earth for she

00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:07.300
gives food, home, path, and work. Like, that's

00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:10.440
always food, home, path, and work. This time

00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:12.239
he said, I'd like to give thanks to Mother Earth

00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.679
for she gives food, or no, she gives home, path,

00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:25.539
work, and many other things. just like it it

00:44:25.539 --> 00:44:28.940
got him there was brief interlude one time one

00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:32.219
one of those nights that week not that one but

00:44:32.219 --> 00:44:35.980
maybe the night before during the ceremony i

00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:39.119
felt nothing and it was weird because i that

00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:41.159
had that had almost never happened like you know

00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.360
i probably you can usually you get a dose at

00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:45.599
the beginning and then usually a little ways

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.840
in he'll ask if people need more or want more

00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:51.320
Like if you're not feeling like you don't want

00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:52.820
to take too much, but you don't want to take

00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:54.420
not enough. You want to take the right amount.

00:44:55.260 --> 00:44:59.599
And I took I took more and it still did nothing.

00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:02.199
And so, you know, several hours I just sat and

00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:05.320
essentially meditated while other people were

00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:09.199
having their trip. And then I was there with

00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:11.780
with Casey and we went back to our room afterwards,

00:45:12.099 --> 00:45:14.340
like the ceremony ended. And then when we went

00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:17.340
to bed, when we went to sleep or before we went

00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:20.500
to sleep. It started kicking in just like three

00:45:20.500 --> 00:45:24.579
hours late and it was like the most out of control.

00:45:25.179 --> 00:45:31.780
Like if I had had that experience first or without,

00:45:31.980 --> 00:45:36.960
like it really was, it felt like, I don't know,

00:45:36.980 --> 00:45:40.920
a neon pinball machine bouncing around inside

00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:44.159
of me or like, I don't know, a Japanese game

00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:49.119
show just like. lots of bells and whistles and

00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:55.539
noises and and just like a jittery jostled sensation

00:45:55.539 --> 00:46:00.760
and it was very it was it was scary uh and you

00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:03.059
know normally the when you're having the experience

00:46:03.059 --> 00:46:05.519
with the guide the guide like i would have if

00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.360
i was having that with him i might have talked

00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:10.219
to him about it and he might have had something

00:46:10.219 --> 00:46:12.340
that he could offer sometimes they give you tea

00:46:12.340 --> 00:46:15.679
and it can help sometimes like a specific you

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.659
know different kinds of treatments or just another

00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:23.639
a specific song could help peace you out but

00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:27.400
uh you know i talked to my girlfriend and it

00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:31.960
i was like aware that i would be okay in general

00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:33.340
because i'm like the effects come the effects

00:46:33.340 --> 00:46:38.739
go but even knowing that didn't help it feel

00:46:38.739 --> 00:46:43.980
good it felt uh just like Have you watched the

00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:50.139
TV show Horace and Pete? No. It's a series that

00:46:50.139 --> 00:46:55.440
Louis C .K. produced that starred Steve Buscemi

00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:59.519
and him. And Steve Buscemi's character had a

00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:03.059
mental disorder that if he wasn't medicated,

00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:08.820
he could become erratic and unpredictable. And

00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:10.900
I had just watched that, and I don't know if...

00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:15.300
that was part of what like in inspired this.

00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.619
Like I, I felt like I was mentally unstable.

00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.260
I felt, I was like, Oh, if it was this all the

00:47:21.260 --> 00:47:24.880
time, then I could, I could be like, Oh, I, you

00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:27.119
know, I don't mean to, you know, appropriate

00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:31.139
the, uh, the space of mental illness, but it

00:47:31.139 --> 00:47:33.639
definitely for the same way, you know, like I've,

00:47:33.639 --> 00:47:36.460
I've been temporarily physically disabled. You

00:47:36.460 --> 00:47:38.780
know, I had to walk with a cane and couldn't

00:47:38.780 --> 00:47:41.679
walk for a while when I tore. my calf muscle

00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:44.639
a couple years ago. And we're all always temporarily

00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:49.480
abled, you know, until what point we are on the

00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:51.940
other side of it. And this felt, you know, temporarily,

00:47:52.059 --> 00:47:59.039
mentally disabled or certainly impacted. So for

00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:02.239
sure, I mean, you know, I don't, there have been

00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:05.719
times when I've like glorified and celebrated

00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.170
these experiences. And I do overall. think that,

00:48:09.170 --> 00:48:12.489
you know, it's a, it has been for me and for

00:48:12.489 --> 00:48:14.590
many people I know and for many people around

00:48:14.590 --> 00:48:20.070
the world, a valuable like tool, uh, therapeutically,

00:48:20.150 --> 00:48:23.670
emotionally, spiritually, but it is not without

00:48:23.670 --> 00:48:31.030
its, uh, potential dangers. Uh, you know, like

00:48:31.030 --> 00:48:34.170
obviously if anyone is considering having an

00:48:34.170 --> 00:48:38.079
experience, like do some research and also, you

00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:39.820
know consult with like certainly if you're on

00:48:39.820 --> 00:48:42.679
any medications i know there are some medications

00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:47.059
that do not jive well with it either because

00:48:47.059 --> 00:48:49.360
it'll they'll counteract each other and cancel

00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:51.099
each other out and you won't have the experience

00:48:51.099 --> 00:48:54.820
or obviously perhaps in the other direction you

00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:56.599
know they're like don't drink this don't take

00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:59.059
this with alcohol or it'll you know potentially

00:48:59.059 --> 00:49:02.760
amplify uh or interact in other unpredictable

00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:08.860
ways but uh you know Over the over the course

00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:13.980
of the last decade plus, even though, you know,

00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:17.119
I would say most of the experiences aren't purely

00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:21.079
one, you know, one vibe or another, not just

00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:23.960
joyful, not just painful. They sometimes say

00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:27.619
like in the I think in the Peruvian cultural

00:49:27.619 --> 00:49:32.480
lore, there's the. The earthly realm, the heavenly

00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.079
realm above, and the nether realm, realm of the

00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:37.539
dead below. And they're represented by, from

00:49:37.539 --> 00:49:41.219
bottom to top, the snake, the cat, and the condor.

00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:45.179
And the cat's like a jaguar, perhaps. And sometimes

00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:49.639
people in Ayahuasca will visit these realms.

00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:53.900
You might have one that's more snake realm. And

00:49:53.900 --> 00:49:55.519
you might have one that like my first couple

00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:58.739
were more purely condor realm, you know, and

00:49:58.739 --> 00:50:03.579
that one that had been like the clarity of purpose

00:50:03.579 --> 00:50:05.860
that was like felt like the earthly realm, you

00:50:05.860 --> 00:50:11.880
know, and the realm of the cat. And sometimes,

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.219
you know, you start in one a lot. I would say

00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:16.920
a lot of them, you know, start, you know, with

00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:19.739
an asteroid belt that could be somewhere between

00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:25.019
the nether realm and the. uh the the earthly

00:50:25.019 --> 00:50:28.780
realm and then ideally or sometimes you know

00:50:28.780 --> 00:50:32.340
hopefully if uh feeling good feels good to you

00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:35.840
you know you end up like smoothed out in the

00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:43.780
heavenly realm and uh yeah there's often sometimes

00:50:43.780 --> 00:50:46.800
there are other people aside from the guide helpers

00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:50.659
who also sing with him or separately some people

00:50:50.659 --> 00:50:53.659
have other instruments there have been uh auto

00:50:53.659 --> 00:50:58.539
harps and violins and harmonicas and a drum that

00:50:58.539 --> 00:51:01.739
i forget the name of but like is like one of

00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:04.260
the most melodic like melodious drums i ever

00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:11.260
experienced hearing and sometimes you know i

00:51:11.260 --> 00:51:13.639
mentioned sights and sounds like there have been

00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:17.039
times when i've also like Had, I think, olfactory,

00:51:17.059 --> 00:51:19.739
you know, smell hallucinations like, oh, this

00:51:19.739 --> 00:51:22.539
is something going on in this room. And there's

00:51:22.539 --> 00:51:27.679
there's a part towards the end of the ceremony,

00:51:27.699 --> 00:51:31.199
usually where the guide goes around and has you

00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:35.460
sit up and either with smoke or like a particular

00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:40.579
liquid. He'll like blow smoke into your hands,

00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:44.949
onto your head. uh or put this oil into your

00:51:44.949 --> 00:51:46.889
hands onto your head and it's sort of like the

00:51:46.889 --> 00:51:49.530
i think the closing of the ceremony because at

00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:51.989
the beginning of the ceremony he'll usually like

00:51:51.989 --> 00:51:55.010
blow smoke to the four directions i think as

00:51:55.010 --> 00:51:59.070
maybe a a metaphorical or more so like protective

00:51:59.070 --> 00:52:04.730
like uh request or like an opening prayer of

00:52:04.730 --> 00:52:07.289
a kind to be like we're doing this thing here

00:52:07.289 --> 00:52:12.860
and then it kind of wraps up um Sometimes when

00:52:12.860 --> 00:52:15.960
he comes around and does that smoke or oil thing,

00:52:16.099 --> 00:52:19.079
he'll ask us, one at a time, he'll say, like,

00:52:19.099 --> 00:52:20.900
you know, did you feel the effects? And, like,

00:52:20.900 --> 00:52:23.239
if you have felt the effects, you're like, yeah,

00:52:23.460 --> 00:52:34.420
definitely. But I don't remember if I was in

00:52:34.420 --> 00:52:41.730
the middle of something specific, but. I'll just

00:52:41.730 --> 00:52:45.849
ask something. Yeah. I believe I've heard you

00:52:45.849 --> 00:52:50.289
say that your spiritual sort of beliefs changed

00:52:50.289 --> 00:52:53.869
after ayahuasca, that you had been more of an

00:52:53.869 --> 00:52:58.429
atheist. Tell me a little bit about if your spiritual

00:52:58.429 --> 00:53:01.789
beliefs changed, what they were before and what

00:53:01.789 --> 00:53:07.590
they are now. Sure. Yeah, I would say there has

00:53:07.590 --> 00:53:14.360
been a shift. And like a joke that I say sometimes

00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:16.480
is that I used to be an atheist and now I'm like,

00:53:16.539 --> 00:53:19.260
why do we have to talk about it? But because

00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:24.159
I because I brought up. Yeah. Oh, no, no. Very

00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:29.139
reasonable question. Like, you know, I was raised

00:53:29.139 --> 00:53:32.340
culturally Jewish. I think that both of my parents

00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:35.940
have a vague belief in, quote unquote, something,

00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:41.799
you know, like not a regimented, you know. dogmatic,

00:53:41.799 --> 00:53:46.199
organized religion type of God, but not nothing.

00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:48.739
And so that was kind of like the vibe that I

00:53:48.739 --> 00:53:51.980
was raised with. I mean, I wasn't like told you

00:53:51.980 --> 00:53:54.699
have to believe this thing, but I kind of was

00:53:54.699 --> 00:53:56.840
like, yeah, why not? And I remember being in

00:53:56.840 --> 00:54:01.599
college and thinking about like death and infinity,

00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:04.519
which is kind of like, you know, nothingness

00:54:04.519 --> 00:54:11.099
and everythingness as I saw it at the time. They

00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:13.519
both freak me out, like to think about nothing,

00:54:13.619 --> 00:54:16.659
to think about not exist. Like I couldn't. And

00:54:16.659 --> 00:54:18.960
to think about everything, to think about the

00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:21.360
biggest, like bigger than, like doesn't stop

00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.019
at all. Like they both freak me out so much.

00:54:24.139 --> 00:54:27.940
I think in part because I am, I'm a part of finity.

00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:31.960
I'm part of infinity, but I'm finite. I'm something.

00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:33.920
I'm not nothing. I'm not everything. I mean,

00:54:33.940 --> 00:54:38.059
I'm a representative of both. But, you know,

00:54:38.059 --> 00:54:41.900
I think that doing psychedelics, and doing ayahuasca

00:54:41.900 --> 00:54:46.780
specifically help gave me you know a frame of

00:54:46.780 --> 00:54:50.820
reference or some insight or at least you know

00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:56.000
help me like let go of freaking out a little

00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:07.300
bit um in college i remember death and uh every

00:55:07.300 --> 00:55:09.920
like the the stuff that freaked me out i was

00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:13.440
like is there anything after this life ends?

00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:16.139
And the idea that there could be nothing was

00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:19.880
scary. So I was like, well, I don't know. And

00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:23.000
it seems like I don't know if anyone knows. Like,

00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:27.239
and mathematically, either there is or there

00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.760
isn't. Let's say, you know, based on what I understand,

00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:33.460
there's something or there's nothing. And I don't

00:55:33.460 --> 00:55:39.460
have any evidence either way. And... Because

00:55:39.460 --> 00:55:43.079
I don't have any evidence either way, it's 50

00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:48.820
-50. So why don't I put a little, I'll put my

00:55:48.820 --> 00:55:50.920
vote down on the side of the scale that doesn't

00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:54.840
freak me out for eternity, you know? So I'm like,

00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:56.940
if they could both be true, if either could be

00:55:56.940 --> 00:55:58.719
true, I'm just going to believe the one that

00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:01.000
makes me able to sleep at night, the one that

00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.800
makes me feel good. And so I have like a belief

00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:08.489
in something. And this was a little. I was in

00:56:08.489 --> 00:56:14.469
college then a little before 9 -11. I graduated

00:56:14.469 --> 00:56:18.929
in 2000. And then I went to grad school. And

00:56:18.929 --> 00:56:22.150
then 9 -11 happened. And, you know, I'm like

00:56:22.150 --> 00:56:28.630
22, 23. And, you know, my understanding is like

00:56:28.630 --> 00:56:33.730
the brain is still developing until 25 -ish.

00:56:33.829 --> 00:56:37.570
So, like, I'm becoming an adult still. And I'm...

00:56:37.710 --> 00:56:42.349
you know, learning that I'm thinking new things,

00:56:42.570 --> 00:56:44.210
thinking my own thoughts, learning, figuring

00:56:44.210 --> 00:56:46.250
out what I think and what I believe and what

00:56:46.250 --> 00:56:50.210
I feel. And I came to, like, I came to atheism

00:56:50.210 --> 00:56:56.469
because of my understanding of, you know, the

00:56:56.469 --> 00:57:00.050
Judeo Christian Muslim, you know, the, the God

00:57:00.050 --> 00:57:02.190
of the Western world that I was most familiar

00:57:02.190 --> 00:57:07.179
with was said to be all. you know all powerful

00:57:07.179 --> 00:57:13.139
all knowing all uh all loving as well but and

00:57:13.139 --> 00:57:15.639
that was the part that didn't make sense at the

00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.739
time i was like why you know i don't think i

00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.880
don't know if i'm the first person to say why

00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:27.800
would a loving god allow such horrific you know

00:57:27.800 --> 00:57:33.139
pain and death like as at the time to me represented

00:57:33.139 --> 00:57:36.309
by 9 -11 And I remember, you know, talking to

00:57:36.309 --> 00:57:38.809
a priest because I was dating a Catholic woman

00:57:38.809 --> 00:57:43.889
and this nice priest. I was like, why? And he's

00:57:43.889 --> 00:57:47.010
like, where's God? You know, where was God on

00:57:47.010 --> 00:57:50.510
9 -11? And he said, you know, God was in the

00:57:50.510 --> 00:57:54.170
hearts and minds of the rescuers, the firefighters,

00:57:54.469 --> 00:57:56.530
you know. And I was like, what about before that,

00:57:56.630 --> 00:58:00.110
though, you know? And he said, well, there's

00:58:00.110 --> 00:58:03.800
free will. God, you know. And free will, and

00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:08.679
so it's that one. The actions of the people who

00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:14.039
took the towers down, like, that wasn't God.

00:58:15.179 --> 00:58:21.219
And it didn't sit perfectly with me. Like, I

00:58:21.219 --> 00:58:23.219
mean, it didn't make sense. It didn't make sense.

00:58:23.659 --> 00:58:27.019
Like, interlude or jumping out, I don't know

00:58:27.019 --> 00:58:29.619
if we've talked about this, but I've been learning

00:58:29.619 --> 00:58:31.769
about Buddhism a lot recently. I have a good

00:58:31.769 --> 00:58:34.070
friend who's a practicing Buddhist, and he told

00:58:34.070 --> 00:58:38.250
me that specifically, like, the idea of that

00:58:38.250 --> 00:58:41.190
all -powerful God does not exist in Buddhism,

00:58:41.389 --> 00:58:47.789
that the Buddha is said to be omniscient, all

00:58:47.789 --> 00:58:54.150
-knowing, omnibenevolent, all -loving, omnipresent,

00:58:54.289 --> 00:59:00.659
all places, but specifically not. omnipotent

00:59:00.659 --> 00:59:04.619
not all powerful and because of the if the all

00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:10.780
loving all places all knowing being was all powerful

00:59:10.780 --> 00:59:14.260
then they would snap their fingers and take away

00:59:14.260 --> 00:59:18.539
the pain for everyone but uh sadly or fortunately

00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:21.059
you know depending on your perspective that's

00:59:21.059 --> 00:59:24.619
for each person each of us to do on our own like

00:59:24.619 --> 00:59:29.739
we all have whatever power we do to take whatever

00:59:29.739 --> 00:59:33.280
steps you know in our life in the world and but

00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:36.719
you know back then i was like uh i don't get

00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:38.440
it doesn't work doesn't make doesn't work for

00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:43.000
me so as much as i it pains me to throw out my

00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:47.079
comfortable belief in the afterlife i was like

00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:49.639
i don't know and it's so interesting also that

00:59:49.639 --> 00:59:52.639
like there's no like specific logical reason

00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:57.039
why like discussions of god and the creation

00:59:57.039 --> 01:00:00.369
of the universe and what happens after death

01:00:00.369 --> 01:00:03.570
and like that, those, those don't all have to

01:00:03.570 --> 01:00:07.030
be connected. Like one God could create the universe

01:00:07.030 --> 01:00:08.789
and then be like, bye -bye. And then we're like,

01:00:08.849 --> 01:00:10.289
what about an afterlife? Like that's somebody

01:00:10.289 --> 01:00:15.030
else's department. Um, but at the time they were

01:00:15.030 --> 01:00:17.130
all kind of like, you know, floating around connected

01:00:17.130 --> 01:00:21.369
ish to me. So I was like, yep, no, nothing. And

01:00:21.369 --> 01:00:24.929
I was just like, you know, well, what do, what

01:00:24.929 --> 01:00:27.719
is real? What do I know? I'm like, Seems like

01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:30.539
I'm here and these people are here and animals

01:00:30.539 --> 01:00:32.940
are here and everything that's here. And like,

01:00:32.980 --> 01:00:37.099
what can we do? Like we can hopefully make, you

01:00:37.099 --> 01:00:39.159
know, whether there is or isn't a heaven after

01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:43.260
this life, we can try to make this life as heavenly

01:00:43.260 --> 01:00:47.559
as possible for the beings that are in it, for

01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:50.000
ourselves and the people around us and all over

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:54.619
the world and universe. And so that I became,

01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:59.949
you know, kind of a. Just like, you know. Perhaps

01:00:59.949 --> 01:01:01.190
I thought at the time, you know, scientifically

01:01:01.190 --> 01:01:03.670
minded, like empirically, I'd love if somebody

01:01:03.670 --> 01:01:05.510
could prove to me that God existed, you know.

01:01:07.409 --> 01:01:11.190
And anyway, so I I operated like that for a while.

01:01:11.269 --> 01:01:14.469
Then I did mushrooms when I was 25. And that

01:01:14.469 --> 01:01:16.030
was the first time that I was like, oh, I think

01:01:16.030 --> 01:01:19.349
I actually at least now have a framework for

01:01:19.349 --> 01:01:21.969
what people are talking about when they discuss

01:01:21.969 --> 01:01:25.289
enlightenment or mystical experiences. Like,

01:01:25.349 --> 01:01:30.280
I'm not saying that I. was enlightened but i

01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:35.239
felt like oh like i felt connected i felt peaceful

01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:39.219
and connected to like people i didn't know you

01:01:39.219 --> 01:01:42.639
know i was just at a party on this on block island

01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:46.880
off the coast of rhode island for a music festival

01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:52.860
and it was just like yeah it just i was like

01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:55.000
oh i never i never experienced this before i'd

01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:58.719
like read I read a story once about like those

01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:02.780
had an analogy about like how humanity today

01:02:02.780 --> 01:02:07.460
had lost. Like in the in the analogy, humanity

01:02:07.460 --> 01:02:09.860
had lost the capacity to laugh and understand

01:02:09.860 --> 01:02:12.460
what laughter was. But there were certain like

01:02:12.460 --> 01:02:14.960
laugh masters, like Zen masters who were aware

01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:16.980
and would try to teach people. But you don't

01:02:16.980 --> 01:02:19.860
teach someone how to laugh by just being like,

01:02:19.900 --> 01:02:22.000
go like this. Ha ha ha ha. They would try to

01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:24.679
do funny stuff. And, you know, then sometimes

01:02:24.679 --> 01:02:27.719
people would be like. Oh, I get it. But if you

01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:29.699
don't get it, you can go through the physical

01:02:29.699 --> 01:02:31.639
motions of laughing and somebody who knows what

01:02:31.639 --> 01:02:33.559
real laughter is would be like, that's not it.

01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:40.619
And. And so in the book, I was like, wow, what

01:02:40.619 --> 01:02:42.800
a cool story. And I read it before I did mushrooms.

01:02:43.099 --> 01:02:46.099
I was like, I get that there's an analogy happening

01:02:46.099 --> 01:02:51.289
here. Like our world is to laughter as. Or sorry,

01:02:51.349 --> 01:02:53.309
the world in the story is to laughter as our

01:02:53.309 --> 01:02:55.510
world is to something. But I'm like, what's that

01:02:55.510 --> 01:02:58.449
something? And I think it's like that kind of

01:02:58.449 --> 01:03:01.309
the kind of enlightenment, the kind of vision,

01:03:01.429 --> 01:03:05.869
the kind of realization that people are said

01:03:05.869 --> 01:03:11.869
to have when a Zen koan works on them. When someone's

01:03:11.869 --> 01:03:14.710
like, you know, what was your original face before

01:03:14.710 --> 01:03:17.670
your mother and father were born? You're like,

01:03:17.809 --> 01:03:23.110
ah. And brings you to, you know, to some brings

01:03:23.110 --> 01:03:27.070
you to or like activates or awakens some non

01:03:27.070 --> 01:03:34.530
-dual awareness. And probably for someone who

01:03:34.530 --> 01:03:38.070
has had that experience listening to me now,

01:03:38.289 --> 01:03:43.530
they'd be like, that's not it. So take all this

01:03:43.530 --> 01:03:48.940
with a grain of salt. But. This is all to say

01:03:48.940 --> 01:03:51.619
when I did ayahuasca for the first time and felt,

01:03:51.699 --> 01:03:54.599
you know, like I was like, I don't know, a river

01:03:54.599 --> 01:04:00.699
of love coursing through itself. And. You know,

01:04:00.699 --> 01:04:05.900
I was inspired to be as loving as possible. Which

01:04:05.900 --> 01:04:10.920
I still I aspire to do and. But sometimes I'm

01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:19.010
hungry or tired, you know. And. So I stopped.

01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:23.769
There's this Alan Watts story he tells about,

01:04:23.849 --> 01:04:27.230
I forget what Buddhist teacher it was, but this

01:04:27.230 --> 01:04:29.949
Buddhist teacher was asked, do you believe in

01:04:29.949 --> 01:04:33.889
God? And he said, if you do, I don't. And if

01:04:33.889 --> 01:04:40.469
you don't, I do. And that really spoke to me.

01:04:40.690 --> 01:04:42.869
And so I feel like that's where I'm coming from.

01:04:42.909 --> 01:04:47.739
Like, I think I swung. for myself too far in

01:04:47.739 --> 01:04:54.380
the disbelieving direction. And I'm like on my

01:04:54.380 --> 01:04:57.039
way, you know, I'm trying to figure out the middle

01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:01.079
path, like which in Buddhism, as I understand

01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:07.019
it, my friend tells me, like, there are two mistakes

01:05:07.019 --> 01:05:11.679
that you can make. Like in, in Buddhism, my understanding

01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:16.059
is that everything, that everything that exists

01:05:16.059 --> 01:05:19.400
and everything that doesn't exist is devoid of

01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:25.280
a self and devoid of a permanent, ultimate, unchanging

01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:29.780
self. Like, we have a conventional self. Like,

01:05:29.820 --> 01:05:33.800
I woke up today. I woke up yesterday. I hope

01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:36.460
I wake up tomorrow. I call myself Mike Kaplan

01:05:36.460 --> 01:05:40.679
every day. Like, we can speak about these conventional

01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:44.260
selves, but also... All of the matter and energy

01:05:44.260 --> 01:05:47.000
that comprises me today is different from the

01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.800
matter and energy that comprised me yesterday

01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:51.300
and will comprise me tomorrow. But we're like,

01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:54.920
but we get it. I'm me, you know, but like the

01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:59.219
baby that I was and the. Hundred and fifty year

01:05:59.219 --> 01:06:03.880
old that I'll be like they have very little in

01:06:03.880 --> 01:06:06.280
common. You know, they don't have the same memories

01:06:06.280 --> 01:06:09.079
or maybe maybe they have similar no memories

01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:15.739
now, but. this is all to say uh so one mistake

01:06:15.739 --> 01:06:20.599
a person can make with respect to like overshooting

01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:22.460
the middle path in one or the other direction

01:06:22.460 --> 01:06:27.739
one is nihilism to be like okay no self nothing

01:06:27.739 --> 01:06:31.159
there is nothing but there's not nothing like

01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:34.360
there is thing there is something there is awareness

01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:37.840
there is consciousness there is you know like

01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:41.929
you know it's human you know a person is often

01:06:41.929 --> 01:06:43.849
compared to like a river you know they whoever

01:06:43.849 --> 01:06:47.550
it was that said uh the same person cannot step

01:06:47.550 --> 01:06:49.809
into the same river twice because the river the

01:06:49.809 --> 01:06:51.869
water is always shifting and also the person

01:06:51.869 --> 01:06:53.849
is always shifting so there's no such thing as

01:06:53.849 --> 01:06:56.110
from moment to moment the same person or the

01:06:56.110 --> 01:06:58.530
same river but also conventionally we're like

01:06:58.530 --> 01:07:00.829
yep that one's the nile that one's the amazon

01:07:00.829 --> 01:07:03.909
like they're definitely not the same as each

01:07:03.909 --> 01:07:08.949
other and so there's not nothing there's just

01:07:08.949 --> 01:07:13.239
not a permanent thing so nihilism is incorrect

01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:19.119
and but on the flip side of nihilism is belief

01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:24.480
in like the permanent like the soul let's say

01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:27.420
that that there is something that is unchanging

01:07:27.420 --> 01:07:32.260
about me and i mean i don't want to you know

01:07:32.260 --> 01:07:36.480
rain on anyone's belief parade uh and i'm only

01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:41.530
speak for myself I have come to at least believe,

01:07:41.670 --> 01:07:46.070
if not understand, that yeah, my thoughts and

01:07:46.070 --> 01:07:48.449
feelings are different every day. My hair is

01:07:48.449 --> 01:07:53.150
grayer than it was 10 years ago. Things are changing.

01:07:53.570 --> 01:07:55.949
There's no me that I can point to that I'm like,

01:07:56.010 --> 01:08:01.869
that one's here all the time. There's differences.

01:08:02.210 --> 01:08:05.789
But my friend Gus, the Buddhist, told me, he's

01:08:05.789 --> 01:08:10.760
like, Between those two errors that you can make

01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:15.340
that you exist, you know, in some permanent fashion

01:08:15.340 --> 01:08:18.600
and that you don't exist at all. He's like err

01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:23.699
on the side of you. You you exist because you

01:08:23.699 --> 01:08:26.739
exist. So that one's that's a better one. That's

01:08:26.739 --> 01:08:30.479
a better mistake to make. Like I read or I listened

01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:34.180
to a podcast once of a Buddhist teacher who was

01:08:34.180 --> 01:08:38.310
talking about letting go. And one of his students

01:08:38.310 --> 01:08:40.829
asked, but if we're supposed to, like, you know,

01:08:40.829 --> 01:08:43.270
aspire to let go, what about our practices? Are

01:08:43.270 --> 01:08:48.510
we to let those go, like our meditation rituals

01:08:48.510 --> 01:08:51.630
and such? And the teacher said, in the beginning,

01:08:51.810 --> 01:08:55.210
those are fine to cling to. Like, if you're going

01:08:55.210 --> 01:08:57.149
to cling to anything, cling to the practice,

01:08:57.210 --> 01:09:00.750
and eventually, when you don't need to, you won't.

01:09:01.149 --> 01:09:05.409
And when will I not need to? You'll know. So...

01:09:06.270 --> 01:09:09.510
it's funny I feel like that you know kind of

01:09:09.510 --> 01:09:11.970
mirrored the idea of like yeah believe in the

01:09:11.970 --> 01:09:14.670
the one that is the one that there's something

01:09:14.670 --> 01:09:18.630
kind of like mirrored my my college less well

01:09:18.630 --> 01:09:20.630
thought out like well I'll just do the one that

01:09:20.630 --> 01:09:23.609
I like uh the one where I'm something the one

01:09:23.609 --> 01:09:29.109
there where there is something um and so I've

01:09:29.109 --> 01:09:36.720
come to this like In a discussion of like, what,

01:09:36.819 --> 01:09:40.060
what do I believe? What do I believe there is

01:09:40.060 --> 01:09:42.500
like, I think, you know, I studied linguistics

01:09:42.500 --> 01:09:49.279
and words are useful tools that we can use to

01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:54.619
point to things that exist, but the word isn't

01:09:54.619 --> 01:09:57.340
the thing. And the word can't even necessarily

01:09:57.340 --> 01:10:01.199
get close enough to the thing. And the, you know,

01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:02.659
the connotations might be different for every

01:10:02.659 --> 01:10:04.729
person. But this is all to say, like, I mean,

01:10:04.729 --> 01:10:11.590
what does God mean? Like. Certainly, you know,

01:10:11.590 --> 01:10:14.550
if if to some some people, it might mean literally

01:10:14.550 --> 01:10:18.649
the God of the Bible or the God of some particular

01:10:18.649 --> 01:10:21.149
religious text. That's never what it was for

01:10:21.149 --> 01:10:26.350
me. There's a rabbi who I'm friends with who

01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:30.479
I had on my podcast years ago, and he said. God,

01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:32.500
he was also a Buddhist meditation teacher, and

01:10:32.500 --> 01:10:35.819
he said, God does not exist. God is existence.

01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:39.819
And that kind of shakes my brain like like a

01:10:39.819 --> 01:10:45.479
Zen koan. And I like it a lot. Like the the verbing

01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:48.859
of everything, the ocean of the universe, like

01:10:48.859 --> 01:10:54.579
I think. Like in my definition of what God is,

01:10:54.699 --> 01:10:57.560
you know, one definition is that God is love.

01:10:58.109 --> 01:11:00.470
And that love is the only thing that is real.

01:11:01.550 --> 01:11:05.949
And. In another definition, like God is everything

01:11:05.949 --> 01:11:09.489
like. And I think that jives with if you think

01:11:09.489 --> 01:11:11.449
God is everywhere, if you're the if you're a

01:11:11.449 --> 01:11:14.310
God is everywhere person, then that includes

01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:18.970
inside every, you know, atom of our being that

01:11:18.970 --> 01:11:25.869
we are a part of. God is, you know. And so. That's

01:11:25.869 --> 01:11:29.430
why I feel like. Oh yeah. Here's another piece

01:11:29.430 --> 01:11:31.369
of it. When somebody says I'm a non -believer,

01:11:31.489 --> 01:11:34.609
I'm like a non -believer. Like you certainly,

01:11:34.670 --> 01:11:38.609
you must believe in some, like you, you believe

01:11:38.609 --> 01:11:40.649
you're a non -believer, right? Like, so it's

01:11:40.649 --> 01:11:43.930
not that you don't believe in anything. It's

01:11:43.930 --> 01:11:48.149
that you don't believe in what, which, which

01:11:48.149 --> 01:11:53.510
thing, like the, the God of the Bible. Okay.

01:11:53.789 --> 01:11:59.239
Well, but do you, What do you do you want to

01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:01.939
believe in something like you can like you don't

01:12:01.939 --> 01:12:04.680
like you're not going to get in trouble, you

01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:06.279
know, with, I don't know, atheism, unlimited

01:12:06.279 --> 01:12:16.399
or incorporated. See, I just because of the like

01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:21.060
ever shifting nature of of everything, of of

01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:26.439
language, of culture, of physicality, of emotion.

01:12:27.550 --> 01:12:30.869
of of it all like it doesn't make sense for me

01:12:30.869 --> 01:12:36.510
to lock into place any longer and say i'm you

01:12:36.510 --> 01:12:40.449
know that i i don't believe because i mean sure

01:12:40.449 --> 01:12:43.489
like there are probably things that i don't believe

01:12:43.489 --> 01:12:47.970
in like i i've never seen a unicorn you know

01:12:47.970 --> 01:12:54.869
or a three -sided square or uh you know and a

01:12:54.869 --> 01:13:00.090
married bachelor you know uh so yeah probably

01:13:00.090 --> 01:13:05.550
i don't believe in you know like uh a number

01:13:05.550 --> 01:13:15.050
divided by zero yeah yeah and but i'm much more

01:13:15.050 --> 01:13:18.149
interested in engaging with and thinking about

01:13:18.149 --> 01:13:21.029
and celebrating what i do believe and so you

01:13:21.029 --> 01:13:23.310
know from that first ayahuasca experience i was

01:13:23.310 --> 01:13:28.060
like I believe in love, you know, and I believe

01:13:28.060 --> 01:13:32.880
in a thing called love and, uh, somebody should

01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:39.720
write a song about love and yeah, I believe in

01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:45.199
life during love for sure. Uh, and yeah, I mean,

01:13:45.199 --> 01:13:47.779
and so I feel like that was a time when I sort

01:13:47.779 --> 01:13:53.060
of, this is funny. Here's a, here's a funny analogy,

01:13:53.140 --> 01:13:56.319
I think. Have we ever talked about, or are you

01:13:56.319 --> 01:14:01.140
familiar with Isaac Bashevis Singer? No. He's

01:14:01.140 --> 01:14:07.520
a folk writer, a Jewish folk writer. And he's

01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:10.560
written a lot of really cool stories. And some

01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:13.359
of the stories are about this town of dumb people

01:14:13.359 --> 01:14:17.739
in Europe. And the town is called Selm. And the

01:14:17.739 --> 01:14:21.840
dumbest people in the town are the town elders.

01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:25.399
There's a council of elders. I think the head

01:14:25.399 --> 01:14:29.520
of the elders is named Gronum Ox. And, like,

01:14:29.579 --> 01:14:31.460
they have all of names. Like, one of them is

01:14:31.460 --> 01:14:34.020
named something Schmendrick Numbskull or something,

01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:36.300
you know? Like, they have dumb names because

01:14:36.300 --> 01:14:41.899
they're dumb. And they were facing... I'm really,

01:14:41.979 --> 01:14:46.039
really tickling myself. They were... The town

01:14:46.039 --> 01:14:50.960
was facing a sour cream shortage. And sour cream

01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:56.539
was necessary for it was like part of the the

01:14:56.539 --> 01:15:01.119
custom for a particular holiday that was coming

01:15:01.119 --> 01:15:03.680
up, like, I don't know, blintzes and sour cream

01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:05.380
or something. And they're like, we don't have

01:15:05.380 --> 01:15:07.779
enough sour cream. This is a really big problem.

01:15:08.460 --> 01:15:11.000
And somebody at the meeting suggests, I have

01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:15.159
an idea. What if we make a law that decrees that

01:15:15.159 --> 01:15:19.039
water? Henceforth will be called sour cream and

01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:21.899
sour cream. Henceforth will be called water.

01:15:22.420 --> 01:15:26.739
Then we will have rivers full of sour cream.

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:30.319
We will have wells full of sour cream. We will

01:15:30.319 --> 01:15:33.800
not have a sour cream shortage anymore. Like,

01:15:33.819 --> 01:15:35.500
and that will solve the problem. Somebody says,

01:15:35.600 --> 01:15:37.140
well, then won't we have a water shortage? I'm

01:15:37.140 --> 01:15:38.560
like, yeah, but we're working on sour cream right

01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:41.859
now, you know? And so the reason I bring that

01:15:41.859 --> 01:15:46.670
up is it's so silly. But it is also, in a way,

01:15:46.829 --> 01:15:49.510
what I have done, I hope more in spirit than

01:15:49.510 --> 01:15:52.550
in letter, when I was like, I used to, I would

01:15:52.550 --> 01:15:54.869
have said that I didn't believe in God. But now

01:15:54.869 --> 01:15:58.229
I'm like, I think that God is love. So I'm like

01:15:58.229 --> 01:16:03.689
substituting, and I do believe in love. So that

01:16:03.689 --> 01:16:09.050
was, that is a, you know, an approximation of

01:16:09.050 --> 01:16:13.979
the spiritual shift that I experienced. I mean,

01:16:14.039 --> 01:16:18.880
additionally. So it's really semantic. I mean,

01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:24.100
an argument could be made, but at the same time,

01:16:24.100 --> 01:16:27.260
you know, in the past decade or so, in addition

01:16:27.260 --> 01:16:31.760
to like learning with ayahuasca, I've been learning

01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:34.180
about Buddhism in that time. I've been learning

01:16:34.180 --> 01:16:37.659
with my girlfriend who introduced, like Rini

01:16:37.659 --> 01:16:41.659
introduced into my life. books by Pema Chodron

01:16:41.659 --> 01:16:47.060
and Byron Katie and other spiritual teachers

01:16:47.060 --> 01:16:50.800
and this concept. I forget where this came from,

01:16:50.859 --> 01:16:56.220
this quote, but it's in spiritual matters, one

01:16:56.220 --> 01:17:01.239
ought concern themselves with one's own spirit

01:17:01.239 --> 01:17:06.420
and other people's stomachs. Like, you know worry

01:17:06.420 --> 01:17:08.340
about your own don't don't be looking at other

01:17:08.340 --> 01:17:10.340
people and being like hey they're not worshiping

01:17:10.340 --> 01:17:12.399
right they're not praying right there be like

01:17:12.399 --> 01:17:14.859
does everyone have enough to eat can you help

01:17:14.859 --> 01:17:17.920
someone and that that is you know work work on

01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:23.300
your own you know judging people and forgiveness

01:17:23.300 --> 01:17:27.340
and you know kindness and love work on that for

01:17:27.340 --> 01:17:31.789
yourself and you know help everyone else get

01:17:31.789 --> 01:17:35.609
what they need physically and mentally and, and

01:17:35.609 --> 01:17:40.329
such. So what's funny is when you said that my

01:17:40.329 --> 01:17:42.310
mind immediately went through, yeah, Christians

01:17:42.310 --> 01:17:46.090
in America worry about feeding people and whatever.

01:17:46.229 --> 01:17:49.050
And so I'm immediately judging their spiritual.

01:17:50.090 --> 01:17:54.010
It, it's a, it's really tough. Yeah. It's, I

01:17:54.010 --> 01:18:01.020
mean, like truly, I, I feel like, I've had that

01:18:01.020 --> 01:18:02.680
experience. Like when I first started meditating

01:18:02.680 --> 01:18:06.020
and I like, it didn't really feel anything. I

01:18:06.020 --> 01:18:07.439
didn't know how it was supposed to feel or if

01:18:07.439 --> 01:18:10.239
it was supposed to feel like something. But then

01:18:10.239 --> 01:18:12.760
I had an experience where it did feel like something,

01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:16.479
like something had, I felt something shift because

01:18:16.479 --> 01:18:19.899
of the meditation that I was doing. And I was

01:18:19.899 --> 01:18:22.560
like, at that moment, I was like ecstatic. I

01:18:22.560 --> 01:18:25.600
was like proud. And I was like, I think I'm meditating

01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:27.840
right. And then immediately I think I'm meditating

01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:33.489
wrong. And so similarly, it should be like whatever

01:18:33.489 --> 01:18:38.689
is happening right now. It does feel like that.

01:18:39.069 --> 01:18:43.210
But yeah, it's if it's I do think that it's funny.

01:18:43.270 --> 01:18:47.930
I saw a Jerry Springer show when I was in college,

01:18:48.010 --> 01:18:51.130
I think. And he had on like some white supremacist

01:18:51.130 --> 01:18:54.810
group and was like, you know, shaming them. And

01:18:54.810 --> 01:18:59.850
one of the white supremacists said. like well

01:18:59.850 --> 01:19:07.750
you know you hate us and we hate jews so don't

01:19:07.750 --> 01:19:10.810
we just all hate you know what's the difference

01:19:10.810 --> 01:19:14.850
between like us hating and you hating and jerry

01:19:14.850 --> 01:19:18.050
springer said well you hate them because of who

01:19:18.050 --> 01:19:20.409
they are and we hate you because of what you

01:19:20.409 --> 01:19:26.000
do and at the time that was like meaningful to

01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.880
me i was like oh yeah he got it but then i also

01:19:28.880 --> 01:19:30.659
thought like but what if you hate gay people

01:19:30.659 --> 01:19:33.220
because of the gay things they do that doesn't

01:19:33.220 --> 01:19:35.699
that can't be that's not not the final answer

01:19:35.699 --> 01:19:41.880
uh and so like now i truly i mean i don't think

01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:46.579
i hate anyone or anything uh certainly aspirationally

01:19:46.579 --> 01:19:49.119
i don't i mean if you're like what about white

01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:51.909
supremacists what about hitler I'm like, yeah,

01:19:52.029 --> 01:19:53.869
I mean, I don't think I currently love everyone

01:19:53.869 --> 01:19:57.529
the same. Like, if I have to put them in order,

01:19:57.670 --> 01:20:01.750
they'd be further down. But, you know, it's been

01:20:01.750 --> 01:20:04.229
said that a bodhisattva, you know, somebody on

01:20:04.229 --> 01:20:08.189
their way to trying to help all sentient beings

01:20:08.189 --> 01:20:13.170
experience less suffering and more joy, more

01:20:13.170 --> 01:20:17.850
happiness, that the bodhisattva loves every sentient

01:20:17.850 --> 01:20:21.390
being the way that a loving mother. Loves their

01:20:21.390 --> 01:20:26.270
child. And so, yeah, that's my aspiration to

01:20:26.270 --> 01:20:29.670
love. Do you do metta or loving kindness meditation?

01:20:30.869 --> 01:20:36.569
I have. It is not all that I do. Yeah. But I,

01:20:36.689 --> 01:20:41.229
yeah, there's, yeah. Well, I do. And I've recently

01:20:41.229 --> 01:20:47.649
been, when it gets to, so the way, I'll just

01:20:47.649 --> 01:20:49.390
explain it for listeners, the way it works is.

01:20:50.099 --> 01:20:57.699
Generally, you wish on yourself, may you be happy,

01:20:57.779 --> 01:20:59.739
may you be healthy, may you be free from suffering,

01:20:59.899 --> 01:21:02.479
phrases like that yourself, and then someone

01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:05.300
close to you, and then someone that might be

01:21:05.300 --> 01:21:07.220
an acquaintance, and then someone that's difficult

01:21:07.220 --> 01:21:11.020
for you to love. And I have been doing, for the

01:21:11.020 --> 01:21:14.239
difficult people, I've been doing Donald Trump

01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:17.939
and Benjamin Netanyahu, and I was going to say

01:21:17.939 --> 01:21:22.250
Boris. Anyway, because I'm like Putin, if they

01:21:22.250 --> 01:21:25.770
were happy, they wouldn't be causing so much

01:21:25.770 --> 01:21:31.250
suffering in the world. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

01:21:31.329 --> 01:21:35.590
I have my friend. Rebecca is a minister. And

01:21:35.590 --> 01:21:38.289
she was telling me, I think, about a sermon that

01:21:38.289 --> 01:21:42.909
she was preaching where she was saying, you know,

01:21:42.909 --> 01:21:45.590
she's like, I need to hear this, too. She's like,

01:21:45.789 --> 01:21:52.760
do you know? who loves elon musk and trump and

01:21:52.760 --> 01:21:56.640
more than like there's no one they can love like

01:21:56.640 --> 01:22:02.640
is you know god god loves you know that to i

01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:07.380
feel like it's a similar a parallel like my girlfriend

01:22:07.380 --> 01:22:10.020
reni has uh i don't know if we've talked about

01:22:10.020 --> 01:22:14.140
a course in miracles the spiritual text uh and

01:22:14.140 --> 01:22:19.260
part of it's message is that uh everything in

01:22:19.260 --> 01:22:21.739
anything that anyone's ever doing is either a

01:22:21.739 --> 01:22:28.399
an offering of love or a call for love and which

01:22:28.399 --> 01:22:31.680
isn't to say that every person in any situation

01:22:31.680 --> 01:22:34.520
is the right person to be providing that love

01:22:34.520 --> 01:22:37.979
but just as a matter of understanding you know

01:22:37.979 --> 01:22:40.640
the hurt people hurt people of it all like if

01:22:40.640 --> 01:22:44.520
someone is causing suffering is because they

01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:47.659
have They have been suffering because they have

01:22:47.659 --> 01:22:52.159
been on the receiving end of suffering. And it's

01:22:52.159 --> 01:22:54.880
just, you know, I guess these karmic ripples,

01:22:54.939 --> 01:22:59.159
perhaps. Hello, editing Jeremy here. My battery

01:22:59.159 --> 01:23:01.779
actually went flat at this point, but Mike had

01:23:01.779 --> 01:23:04.539
one more story to share. So he went ahead and

01:23:04.539 --> 01:23:08.340
showed it without me. Here it is. This is one

01:23:08.340 --> 01:23:11.460
of the funniest things that happened in an ayahuasca

01:23:11.460 --> 01:23:15.569
experience. uh it was the the ceremony ended

01:23:15.569 --> 01:23:19.590
and as i said the chimes rang and the guide said

01:23:19.590 --> 01:23:23.670
the thing that he that i said he said he says

01:23:23.670 --> 01:23:26.970
you know he does it the same way as as standard

01:23:26.970 --> 01:23:30.329
he says uh you know like always i like to give

01:23:30.329 --> 01:23:32.470
thanks to mother ayahuasca for she gives teachings

01:23:32.470 --> 01:23:34.949
and medicine one more time i like to give thanks

01:23:34.949 --> 01:23:37.670
to mother earth for she gives food home path

01:23:37.670 --> 01:23:39.930
and work like always i'd like to give thanks

01:23:39.930 --> 01:23:43.329
to uh our creator of the heaven and the earth,

01:23:43.489 --> 01:23:47.289
Love. Love, who is our true master. So thank

01:23:47.289 --> 01:23:49.130
you for coming and making possible this meeting

01:23:49.130 --> 01:23:54.170
with Ayahuasca like a meditation. And then, after

01:23:54.170 --> 01:23:58.010
he said all that, his phone started making noise,

01:23:58.170 --> 01:24:05.750
and it went... That's all, folks. And it was

01:24:05.750 --> 01:24:11.149
stunningly delightful. Like, it at first was...

01:24:11.350 --> 01:24:14.890
jarring and weird and then it became clear that

01:24:14.890 --> 01:24:21.270
he had done it on purpose uh as as a fun ayahuasca

01:24:21.270 --> 01:24:26.250
ceremony joke so i appreciate it i laughed more

01:24:26.250 --> 01:24:29.289
at that than i've laughed at many things i i

01:24:29.289 --> 01:24:31.550
can't remember i mean yeah i can't specifically

01:24:31.550 --> 01:24:35.329
name a time that i've laughed harder so i offer

01:24:35.329 --> 01:24:41.010
that and uh I appreciate you. I love you. I thank

01:24:41.010 --> 01:24:44.689
you so much for having me on the show all the

01:24:44.689 --> 01:24:47.689
times that you have. I will hope to talk to you

01:24:47.689 --> 01:24:56.069
again soon. And have a good day and whatever

01:24:56.069 --> 01:24:58.909
time period. All the time periods. Have a good

01:24:58.909 --> 01:25:02.270
all the time periods. So thank you so much. Bye.

01:25:02.350 --> 01:25:05.550
It's now again. As this conversation comes to

01:25:05.550 --> 01:25:08.069
a close, you might notice what stayed with you.

01:25:08.470 --> 01:25:11.289
Not necessarily the stories, but the questions,

01:25:11.449 --> 01:25:14.970
the tone, and the way Mike speaks about not knowing

01:25:14.970 --> 01:25:18.310
and being okay with that. If you'd like to explore

01:25:18.310 --> 01:25:21.810
more of Mike Kaplan's work, his album, aka Inspired

01:25:21.810 --> 01:25:24.649
by His Ayahuasca Experiences, is available at

01:25:24.649 --> 01:25:30.250
myqkaplan .com. His newer special, Rini, R -I

01:25:30.250 --> 01:25:33.449
-N -I, is available on YouTube. You can also

01:25:33.449 --> 01:25:39.670
find him online, all of his socials. You can

01:25:39.670 --> 01:25:43.750
also find him on all social media. His handle

01:25:43.750 --> 01:25:47.649
is at M -Y -Q -K -A -P -L -A -N, at Mike Kaplan,

01:25:47.710 --> 01:25:50.109
and subscribe to his newsletter at mikekaplan

01:25:50.109 --> 01:25:53.630
.substack .com. If this episode resonated, you

01:25:53.630 --> 01:25:56.449
might also be interested in the wider space I'm

01:25:56.449 --> 01:25:59.479
holding. Calm Hours is a free secular sanctuary

01:25:59.479 --> 01:26:02.220
for people who want a place to pause, regulate,

01:26:02.399 --> 01:26:04.500
and rest in the presence of others. No teachings,

01:26:04.640 --> 01:26:08.399
no pressure, just shared quiet. That space, along

01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:11.260
with this podcast, is community supported. You

01:26:11.260 --> 01:26:14.119
can learn more at jeremywest .net. Thank you

01:26:14.119 --> 01:26:16.399
for listening. It's now again.