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Welcome to Moore in the Word, a podcast of Moore Theological College in Sydney, Australia, that seeks

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to glorify God through biblically sound, thought-provoking and challenging talks and interviews.

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In this episode, from an evening seminar hosted by the Priscilla & Aquila Centre, a centre of Moore

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College, on Monday the 29th of April, 2024, Charlie Screen, Rector of All Souls Langham Place in London.

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speaks about complementarianism, the view that God created men and women equal

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but different, and what complementarianism looks like in a range of contexts.

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Charlie begins with Ephesians 5 verses 22 to 33, and moves outward to examine where the idea is found in the rest of the Bible.

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Then he discusses why complementarianism is so controversial, how it plays out in

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various contexts, in church, in ministry teams, in families, and in the wider culture,

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and what happens when pastors neglect to impart the good teaching of the Bible about men and women to the people they're ministering to.

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We hope you find the episode helpful.

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Good evening, and thank you very much for having me here, Jane.

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Thanks for your invitation.

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It's great to be at Moore.

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This talk will be, um, very much from my context.

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So, uh, this is a profound mystery, uh, which is what Ephesians five says.

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Um, but then how can something the Bible says is this good, uh, as in the fact that men

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and women are different and complimentary, how can it be the cause of so much division?

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And I'm aware that maybe it isn't for you.

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Uh, maybe you have an entirely happy church on this entirely happy diocese.

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And, um, he's laughing at that idea.

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Um, and that, um, that, that my context is very different.

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Is this like bringing, um, an alien from Mars to talk about gardening, uh, here, but, um, in my context,

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uh, The issue of distinctions between men and women and how that works out in church is a cause of enormous

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division, both within churches and among evangelicals, within families, and certainly within our denomination.

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Though I suspect I'm beginning to meet people from Uh, wider Australia, people from EFAC who are here for the next few days.

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I suspect it is more normal, my situation across some of the rest of Australia.

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Um, and it may be that, uh, if you are currently Sydney based or even Moore College based, it

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may be that you will not always work in the happy sunlit land, uh, that is, uh, that is Sydney.

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And I guess even in Sydney, the neighbourhoods, the secular communities that you're part of will have very different assumptions on this.

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And we'll say a bit as we go that the views of culture are constantly on their way into your church.

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That isn't something that stands still.

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Okay, so I'm going to try and show you, um, here we go.

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This is the current, uh, website front page of an organization called W A T C H, uh, Women and the Church, which is

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the campaign group in the Church of England trying to, uh, drive out complementarians from the Church of England.

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And, uh, you'll see, um, if you read to the bottom that, um, they've decided to

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name my church, uh, alongside in, you know, August Company of other churches there.

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Um, as, uh, as some of the places where, uh, discrimination happens, um, and, um, it's slightly tedious to be on a national website like

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that, uh, but there is a, um, there's a sensible point under it that I think is going to be relevant for what we're going to talk about.

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Uh, so one of their big campaigns.

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is that complementarians keep their, their complementarianism secret.

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They are not transparent about it.

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Uh, and in particular, they would have stories of, uh, young women who go to university, who join a church that, um, seems nice, uh,

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that they attend for three years, uh, until at the end of their three years, they say, oh, by the way, I'm interested in ordination.

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Would that be okay?

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At which point they're or at least discouraged because nobody ever told them they were at a complementarian church.

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And I've had, uh, conversations with, uh, people who take a different view from me on this, about transparency, whether it's good or not.

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Um, and I said, and this slightly surprised them, I said, because I think this teaching

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is true and I think it is good for both women and men, why would I want to keep it secret?

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Why would I not want people to know that my church was complementarian?

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Now, I said that a couple of years ago, so let me tell you something else about my context.

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Uh, I have moved from, I finally finished my curacic.

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So, uh, I, um, I was a curate for 18 years, uh, at a church called St.

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Helens Bishopsgate, because there was a lot to learn, uh, and I was very slow.

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And, um, St.

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Helens, uh, which is also you'll see featured second on that list is interesting.

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They're obviously slightly friendlier than ourselves.

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Um, St.

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Helens would be a church and there's people in this room who, uh, know this

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firsthand, but, um, that would be sort of consistently complimentary as in, I'd say.

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Everyone on the staff would, would hold to that view, uh, it would be worked through consistently, and you might disagree with

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some of the decisions, but, but attempted to be worked through consistently throughout, uh, where complementarism would be

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taught regularly, uh, so I was the student worker for quite a long time, and we would have a, address this explicitly about

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every other year, uh, so that each generation of students would have the chance, uh, to get their heads around these issues.

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Um, but then three years ago, I moved to All Souls Langham Place to be rector, um, much to their surprise and

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mine, uh, I think, um, and again, there's people in the room who, uh, can verify or otherwise what I'm saying.

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Um, and All Souls is quite interesting is on that list.

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Um, because, uh, All Souls would, um, well, as a definition, All Souls would say that we are messily complementarian,

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uh, which is one of a whole series of, of beautiful phrases at All Souls, uh, that no one will tell me what they mean.

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Um, so I, I, do you know what it means?

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I, I'm not sure what it means, but, um, but part of what it means is, um, we are complementarian probably, um, but we'd much rather not talk about it.

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Uh, and, um, And that within our staff team, we would have a range of views on this issue.

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Uh, and we would, uh, seek to live together as a group that, that disagree on this issue, and that would be, um, you know, whereas I think normally

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churches have a single view within which they try and be nice to people who disagree, uh, All Souls is much more trying to be, um, be both views.

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Um, okay.

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So that is just explaining the kind of alien that I am.

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So you might need Ephesians five open, uh, and we're going to begin in Ephesians five.

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And I'll read from verse 22.

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As you'll see on the handout, the first thing is the two possible wedding sermons.

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Uh, on the, who's, who's ever preached on Ephesians 5?

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At a wedding?

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Um, okay.

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So, so as I read, uh, if you haven't preached on this thing, what you would do with this in a wedding.

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Wives, this is verse 22, wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord.

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For the husband is the head of the wife.

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Even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its saviour.

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Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

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Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, so that he might sanctify

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her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to

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himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

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In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies.

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He who loves his wife loves himself, for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes

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and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

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Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

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This mystery is profound, and I'm saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

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However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

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So two wedding sermons, uh, one is mine, uh, and one is a previous colleague of mine, Andrew Satches, uh, which I only

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got to hear quite late on in my time of being his colleague, uh, when I was leading a service and he was preaching.

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Um, my sermon on Ephesians 5, when couples choose that for their wedding.

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Um, roughly goes like this.

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It goes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm really sorry.

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Uh, this passage doesn't mean what you think it means.

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It's not as bad as you think.

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I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, roughly, uh, would be my one.

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And then, uh, I heard Andrew speak and he began by saying, isn't this strange?

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Look at what this passage says, isn't that weird?

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Isn't this totally different to what all of you think?

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Look at how it says men and women are different.

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Look at how it says when they come together in a relationship, the relationships are not identical and they treat each other differently.

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Isn't that strange?

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And, and sort of lays on the fact we've got two different worldviews colliding here.

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The non Christian assumption and the Christian assumption.

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And, and why on earth would you believe these things unless like, uh, Bob and Jill.

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Um, you believe because you believe Jesus is good and kind and loving and perfect.

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Uh, and then roughly as I remember it, his recommendation was, and this was slightly scary for a

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couple, uh, why don't you watch them for the rest of their lives and see whether this works or not.

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So we're saying this is good.

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Uh, this is the best way to put a marriage together.

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Um, you will think that is totally bizarre.

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Maybe that's the starting point for you of wanting to see whether Christianity is true or not.

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It's so different, so odd.

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Why not come and look at Jesus and why not watch this couple to see whether or not it works.

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Um, now again, my sermon isn't quite as I said, it's slightly more front foot than that, but roughly, um,

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that's sort of the territory I want to lay out for this talk.

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We're going to do some of the biblical material, but really all I'm aiming for there is that

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you would agree with me by the end of it, that the Bible thinks complementarianism is good.

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It's not one of the embarrassing truths.

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It's not one of the secret truths.

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It's not one of the last truths you tell people when they've, they've covered everything else.

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It is actually good.

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Uh, connected to many other important things, uh, helpful, good to live by, um, and so given that, uh, why do we find it so hard to talk

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about, uh, why do we find so much pain in the room when we talk about it and so much pain in the room when we're trying to apply it?

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And then the sort of second half of the talk, uh, I would just throw out a load of, um, largely experiences

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from my alien planet in England, uh, and you must take whichever bits seem relevant and helpful.

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Um, and preaching on this at All Souls, where I think the legacy, one of the legacies from John Stott is that the

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middle is the best place to be, um, where, um, We gather, I think, a broader range than we would have gathered at St.

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Helens.

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Um, and, uh, when I've, I've been beginning to preach on complementarian passages or passages that relate

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to this, and always, uh, there's somebody in the room who thinks I have been far, far too apologetic.

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Can't believe you didn't just say what the Bible says.

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And always, always, always, there's a significant group who thinks that we've been far too hard and fierce, uh, and, and harsh.

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Um, I think partly just because.

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it was sort of explicit at all.

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And the same is true whenever we talk about, um, sexuality.

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Uh, I've been preaching on, um, sexuality quite a bit recently because of what's going on in the Church of England.

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And, uh, there will be a letter from somewhere like Hong Kong saying, I'm so disappointed that All Souls is going to be starting to host gay weddings.

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But I did not say that.

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And then the next day, the, the formal complaint, uh, you know, referring me to the will come in as well.

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It's the same sermon.

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And yet.

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Somehow I've been heard in the two opposite ways when I said nothing like either of those things.

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So how can something the Bible says is this good be so divisive?

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If it is a profound mystery, why does it cause so much pain?

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And the passages suggest this is a good truth.

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In fact, I think the passage suggests this is about unity in particular.

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So let's look at Ephesians 5 first of all, um, and start at the end with verse 33.

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Uh, even before I heard Andrew's sermon, this had made it into my Ephesians 5 wedding sermon.

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But isn't verse 33 the marriage that you would want?

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Isn't that the marriage that you'd want for your children?

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Isn't that the marriage that, uh, you would want for your best friends?

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Isn't that the thing that you wish your parents had had or are glad that your parents had?

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A relationship where somehow after 60 years of marriage, um, There is love for

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the wife as for himself, and there is respect from the wife for the husband.

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Um, do you see how, uh, just the final verse, we're landing this as this is something good.

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And then the profound mystery is that all of this refers to Christ and the church, verse 32.

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Um, so if you do not teach Christ, complementarity and complementarianism and difference between men and women in roles in marriage, then

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assuming that it is true and is here in the Bible and is good, then to that extent you are distorting people's ability to understand God.

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uh, what it is like in particular between us and God.

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Um, and again, this may not be a Sydney problem, may not be an Australia problem, but, um, in England, I think we very quickly hold back this truth.

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Again, partly we think we'll get there when people are ready for it.

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Um, but actually you're holding back on the relationship between God and his people.

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Uh, the relationship between us and God is like The relation between a bridegroom and a bride in marriage.

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Um, so if you think the day when you see Jesus face to face will be a good day, uh,

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if you think your relationship with God is a good thing, uh, is part of what is good.

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then you'll want to talk about this.

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And I remember, um, when the penny dropped for me that, that this passage was saying much more than what I thought it was saying there.

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I thought it was saying that God is sort of like a preacher, uh, and like preachers, you know, you're on Saturday night

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or earlier than that, if you're a more organized person than me, you know, desperately looking for a great illustration

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and, you know, there's God thinking, I just want people to understand, uh, the relationship between me and them.

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I wonder what I'll use and like looking around and finally lands on marriage.

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Oh.

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Okay, well, it's a bit like marriage.

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We'll pick on that and explain it.

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And, um, somebody patiently said, no, no, it's the other way around.

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Uh, that God's had all this mapped out before time began and that the creator created marriage so

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that within our creation, there would be an appropriate analogy to give us for what it is like.

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As he relates to us, and it's similar in Ephesians to chapter three and what it says about fatherhood.

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Um, but again, think just some of the wonder of that, that God is like a bridegroom in terms of how he feels about us.

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Uh, He treats us in the sort of way that these verses says a husband should treat loved, gave himself up for her, uh, no one ever hated his own

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flesh, uh, the loves and nourishes and cherishes, um, And just like, um, the creation analogy of the father, um, our fathers can be problematic.

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Uh, mine died when I was, I was very young.

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So simply there's just a lot of absence there.

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Uh, but yet the image remains.

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Um, enormously profound and accessible.

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Again, imagine we didn't have marriage much.

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And we all sort of reproduced vegetatively.

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Um, and you had instead to have, I don't know, God, God is a bit like your line manager or whatever you think the next best

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relationship you have compared to marriage, um, And, and it just would not be, there's a light manager laughing over there.

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There you go.

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Uh, it would not be the same.

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Then, um, in terms of the complementarity in this passage, um,

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again, because I'm preaching on this at a church where there are a wide range of views held, um, I've been reading lots of the

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sort of material that's going the other way from me and trying to work out what are the really big decisions you have to make.

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So I think for Ephesians 5 and for a number of the other passages, is this material, uh, is it asymmetric?

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In other words, is it saying different things to men?

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Is it accidental that it goes, men do this, women do that?

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Uh, and is it.

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reversible?

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Could you just as easily, uh, swap them round?

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And, um, you have obviously a symmetrical 21, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

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Um, and it is certainly true within Ephesians that the things that husbands are commanded

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to do and wives are to do here are, uh, possible of being commanded for other people.

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So the fact that, uh, all men are included in verse 21 means there's nothing, uh, inherently unmanly about submitting.

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The fact that, uh, 5 verse 2 commands everybody to love.

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It means there's nothing sort of, uh, un female about doing the things that are commanded in verse twenty five.

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Um, but, are, are these just sort of random examples?

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Could you just swap in, uh, and make the same points Paul is trying to make by saying we really need our children's leaders.

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to submit to the children's worker in our church, or we really wish that our

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musicians would love the church rather than just play the violin or whatever.

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Could you just do this with any, any example?

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And I, with these passages, cannot see that you can.

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I just cannot see that they're not deliberately one way around, and only that way around, and done deliberately.

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So, um, the, the, The other pairs here, so you have the, the children and the parents, the, in

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the ESV, the bond servants and the masters, uh, they're deliberately patterned, they're parallel.

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In Ephesians, they're all, uh, three pairs within the household.

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One Peter adds the government.

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Uh, and again, you have the parallel between, uh, between the government who I hate to submit to and me, uh, who has to submit.

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Um, and nowhere in the New Testament do these come the other way around.

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Uh, always, uh, always this way.

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And the, the links to Christ and the church, this is a profound mystery, which refers to Christ and the church.

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Again, as I read it, secures it as it must be this way around.

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Christ loves us.

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It's that he loves me, not that I love him.

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I do love him, but he loved me while I was still a sinner and while I was not loving him.

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And that is profoundly important.

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He sacrifices for me, uh, not me for him.

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Nannies be careful saying that my wife gives up huge, huge amounts.

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Uh, there is massive sacrifice.

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I hope between both parties in a relationship, she's allowed me to be here rather than at home with our teenagers.

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Um, but The passage is calling me to give up everything for her.

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Um, and again, I think that is a good thing for the verses to say.

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I'm imperfect, I'm sinful in how I do that, but these verses are good.

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And similarly, the other way around, uh, the church submits to Christ, uh, not him to us.

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And again, this in our Church of England disputes on other issues becomes profound.

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Do you actually believe in a Jesus who can tell you what to do?

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Where you, not that that is everything that submission means, but that actually I am submitted to Jesus Christ

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and I'll say later on, I think this becomes divisive partly because we all of us find submission difficult.

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And that actually is not a gendered thing.

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That is all of us.

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In the Church of England, we're having a big dispute about marriage and our bishops are being very creative with the word marriage and

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what is a marriage and what isn't a marriage and saying that Uh, the doctrine is unchanged, even though it clearly has been changed.

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Um, but, but any number of things tie in here.

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Um, including, um, the, the sort of idea, so when I preached on 1 Corinthians 11 recently, and found

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myself needing, in fact, an entire sermon on transgender issues before we could even get to the

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difficult sermon about men and women in church, because, uh, again, it non reversible and asymmetric.

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Uh, you cannot just, uh, take the genders out of this, the sexes out of this, and not destroy what this is saying.

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Interchangeable humanity would, would undo this.

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So when I, uh, preached on Ephesians 5, I had a go at defining, uh, what I think submission means.

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Uh, and I did quite a lot of what it doesn't mean, but here's my definition if you'd like it.

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Uh, within the mutual partnership that is a marriage, submission is a voluntary, principled decision of a wife to defer

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to the leadership of her husband within the limits set by Jesus rule for the greater flourishing of the entire household.

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Um, I'll say that again, and again, there'll be better definitions I'm sure in this room.

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But within the mutual partnership that is a marriage submission is a voluntary principled decision of a wife to defer to

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the leadership of her husband within the limits set by Jesus rule for the greater flourishing of the entire household.

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And, um, I want to say that that, uh, that is good, and, and ought to be obviously good sounding to us.

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Uh, except that, uh, we live in cultures that do not like the idea of leadership and do not like the idea of authority.

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But, um, let me give an illustration.

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Um, illustrations are not perfect, but, um, When I have the time, my, uh, sport

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is to go out, uh, for fun on the river Thames at night in tiny little kayaks.

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And I've been doing that for about 25 years.

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And, uh, the club when I joined it was, I think I can say this now it was lethally dangerous.

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Um, in that we would, we would, um, the, the, the river gets up to kind of six or seven knots through the bridges.

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There are hazards we would, um, we would head out in very unsuitable boats at night in the dark with no lights.

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And we would just sort of peg it down the middle as fast as we could.

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Um, and it was a lot of fun.

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But now when my club goes out on the Thames, um, we have to designate a leader.

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Um, and sometimes I'm the leader.

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Sometimes I'm not, we take it in turns.

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And within the club, we have a range of very experienced and capable men and women, uh, but we

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recognize that on the Thames at night, it is the decisions are too important to just leave to chance.

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And, uh, when we're out on the water, I submit to the leader, uh, whether or not, uh, they know more than me or less than me,

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whether or not I agree with their decisions, whether I think they're going to, you know, we're going to keep us out too long, we're

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going to be tired, we're not going to get to our drink in the bar, um, because I submit to the leader and when I'm the leader.

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Um, I will try and include everybody in the decisions.

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Uh, we talk before we launch, we talk as we go, uh, we discuss what's around the corner.

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Um, the leader, if they're any good, uh, does not get what they want.

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Uh, that is not what leadership is.

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They don't get to go to the place they think is fun.

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Um, Instead, the leader does what is best for the group, but it is extremely important to have

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somebody calling out the decisions and chairing those discussions and occasionally making the calls.

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Uh, when somebody is in danger, the leader shifts mode and shouts commands and we all obey.

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Uh, there was one night where, uh, we had just made it through a bridge.

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The current was so fast, we only just got through.

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One guy lost all his sort of energy at that point and flipped and went back through the

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other side of the bridge towards a wire at head height, uh, and disappeared down river.

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Um, at which point you, you, you cannot just sort of have a discussion.

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Uh, at which point the leader tells you what's going to happen, what you're going to do and how you're going to make the person safe.

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And, um, the more training I did, uh, the, the more shocked I was at how much leadership we were expected to show.

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Um, so again, there's someone else in the room connected to that, that canoe club

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who, uh, his niece has also done this training, but that, that, that actually you get.

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severely told off on that training if you are unwilling to deliver leadership and decision making.

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Um, so the death of Jesus in this passage is here to say the kind of leader that is good, uh, the model,

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the motivation, uh, the amount to which you would lead in a way that is for the good of the other person.

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But at no point does this passage back off from the idea that submission is goods.

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And that that sort of, uh, leadership is good.

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Uh, again, when I preach on this, um, I say that unless, uh, Bill is out there on the cross, uh, in the

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garden nailed to a cross and dying for her, he has not yet reached the point where he is loving her too much.

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according to the parallel that we're given with Jesus.

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Um, and again, when I'm preaching on this, I always say some of the things it does not mean.

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Uh, domestic abuse is a real thing and is done to, uh, to wives by husbands.

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And these verses are not saying, uh, that, uh, that anybody should stay in a home where they are not safe.

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Uh, and in fact, uh, the, the, the same sort of applies in any leadership, it is Jesus first.

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Uh, and then under that, uh, it is the leadership within the family.

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Okay.

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Um, I'm going to move from Ephesians five, the immediate verses just out into the context and we're going to speed up at this point.

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Um, so.

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In the verses, this is good.

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Within Ephesians 4 and 5, I just want to make the point this slots into all of

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the good things that Paul is recommending for a church that loves Jesus Christ.

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So 4 verse 1, this is an example of what it is to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called.

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That is the headline, 4 verse 1, and then husbands love your wives, wives Submit to your husbands is just part of that, or

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taking the next level in 4 verse 17, um, we are called to no longer walk as the Gentiles do in the futility of their minds.

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And then only across the page, he's giving this as a specific example of what it is, um, to have the thinking of Christ.

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worked out in your life, or even 5S1, uh, the closest sort of heading marker.

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Uh, this is what it is to be imitators of God and to walk in love as Christ loved us and gave

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himself up for us, uh, very specifically the same language as is then used for the husband.

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Uh, that this is all part of the, the beautiful life that Paul is recommending.

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So again, if we do not teach this, if we withhold this from our congregations, uh,

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we're actually making it harder for them to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord.

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Harder for them to escape from a futile Gentile way of living and harder for them to imitate God.

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But even further out in the context of the whole letter, um, I sometimes like to say that what is Ephesians about?

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It's about, um, 3.

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10 until 1.

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10.

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Uh, so what is the point of church?

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What is the point of trying to live a Christian life?

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Three verse ten, uh, all of this is so that through the church, the manifold wisdom

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of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

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The astonishing idea that, uh, when God wants to.

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show Satan and all the angels that he knows what he's doing and that he is wise.

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He does not show them some incredible galaxy that he created.

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He's not show them some astonishing thing from physics that only he understands.

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Instead, he says, come and have a look at the church.

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Like We'd all gathered in some enormous stadium for the big reveal.

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And then disappointingly, it's just, uh, you know, Bill and, and Jill and their 50 years

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of marriage kind of in the middle of the stadium and all the angels are there to look.

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And because the church is then what he describes in chapters four, five and

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six, and that this is what God is showing them all the way through until 110.

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which is the plan for the fullness of time to reunite or to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

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Uh, so again, if God is prepared to show the things in chapters four, five, and six to the angels, uh, then again, why, why

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would we not talk about this, uh, demonstrate it, be willing to, to let people into what it's like for us and share it to others?

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Okay.

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I'm going to, um, bounce.

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across a few other passages, again, just trying to prove the thing that you believed

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already before you arrived, which is that the Bible thinks that this is good.

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So in 1 Peter 3, you have in the first seven verses, the parallel section on wives and husbands there.

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And again, Just to say, it's not an aberration in the book.

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It's not an extra.

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It fits entirely within the main sweep of the book.

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So from 2 verse 13, be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution.

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And then again, he works through, you have Uh, the emperor, you have what servants do, you have wives and husbands.

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Um, and in the, the whole sweep of the book, uh, this is all working out to verse nine.

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Again, this is how to proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous lights.

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Um, and It doesn't identify this specifically, but the whole book is about, 4 verse 4, uh, living as a Christian in

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a world where they are just surprised when you don't join them in the same flood of debauchery and they malign you.

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Um, so again, this isn't something that we do only when the world around us says, yeah, okay, I can see why you do that.

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That makes sense.

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Uh, this isn't only a teaching for, for the days of the patriarchy.

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Um, somehow this whole package is for living in the world where it will be seen even in a context where we'll be misunderstood and mocked.

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And yet that displays, uh, displays the glory of God's and also is an answer

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to the kind of persecution and questions and suffering that they're facing.

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And even within the, uh, within the verses, again, you've got some things that are good.

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Uh, so for the wife, there is the hope that their husband might be won over by this.

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Uh, again, I don't, I don't think the Bible tells us whether The relationships are

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set up this way because men are good at something or because men are bad at something.

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I think it might be just as likely that, um, that submission and headship is there in marriage because men are bad at living unless it's that way.

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Um, but what is clear is that, um, The Bible says how to live and offers these great, great

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incentives, like, would you like your husband to be in the new creation for all of eternity?

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Would you like him to be won over?

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If you would, why not do this?

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And for men, uh, just at the end of verse seven, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

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Again, that actually good treatment of your wife.

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in terms of verse 7, has this fantastic goal that actually teach this, do it, live it, and you would be able to pray.

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Then, um, since we're in War College, I thought I should probably nudge at some kind of Bible overview or biblical theological survey.

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So, um, just Just to turn back into Genesis, um, and again, in all the debates we're having in the Church of England on,

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um, sexuality, it has helped me and sharpened me on the, uh, the enduring value of Genesis 1 to 3 into every situation now.

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So when Jesus is questioned about marriage in Matthew 19, uh, he says, this is where to go.

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when he's asked a very difficult question about his culture's assumptions about

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divorce, he disagrees, and he reestablishes the norms from Genesis 1, 2, and 3.

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Um, and again, in Genesis 1 and 2, the relationship between men and women is good.

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Uh, you have, um, you have God's image, male and female, he created them.

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You have a world where The world is not very good, uh, 1 verse 31, until he has made men and women.

393
00:35:45,265 --> 00:35:52,965
You have, uh, chapter two and the thing that is not good, uh, and, uh, again, we were preaching on this recently.

394
00:35:53,015 --> 00:35:55,215
Uh, it is not good for men to be alone.

395
00:35:55,655 --> 00:35:58,254
Um, I don't think that is about loneliness.

396
00:35:58,735 --> 00:35:59,674
Uh, at all.

397
00:35:59,675 --> 00:36:05,805
Uh, I think Adam had access to, uh, the Trinitarian God for conversation and friendship.

398
00:36:06,205 --> 00:36:10,024
Uh, so I think probably he was not, um, not as lonely as you might think.

399
00:36:10,365 --> 00:36:14,345
Uh, but it is not good for the things that humanity is for.

400
00:36:14,705 --> 00:36:18,225
Fill the world, uh, subdue it, care for it.

401
00:36:18,225 --> 00:36:23,735
Uh, and, uh, Men are entirely incapable of filling the world on their own.

402
00:36:24,765 --> 00:36:29,305
You have the song in Genesis 2, or the whatever it is, verse 23, that Adam says,

403
00:36:29,735 --> 00:36:34,955
again, that the total delight, this at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.

404
00:36:35,305 --> 00:36:37,984
She shall be called woman because she was taken out of man.

405
00:36:38,495 --> 00:36:44,915
And I was preaching 1 Corinthians 11 recently, which again goes back to the order in creation.

406
00:36:45,315 --> 00:36:51,015
Man created first and then woman second, and looking at Genesis 2 for that, it struck me again.

407
00:36:51,145 --> 00:36:53,555
that they are entirely joyful about that.

408
00:36:54,255 --> 00:37:02,295
Uh, this is, this is the happiest song in the Bible potentially, uh, when he sees the, the woman who's been brought into this garden with him.

409
00:37:02,804 --> 00:37:06,365
Uh, again, this is not meant to be a negative, hard, difficult thing.

410
00:37:06,375 --> 00:37:08,684
This is a good and a positive thing.

411
00:37:09,045 --> 00:37:16,445
And then you have Genesis three, um, and in particular, um, the verse addressed to the woman

412
00:37:16,455 --> 00:37:23,625
in verse 16, um, but also the sort of blaming section, uh, What's the, the wedding joke?

413
00:37:23,705 --> 00:37:31,245
Uh, that the, um, the, the man blamed the woman, the woman blamed the snake and the snake didn't have a leg to stand on.

414
00:37:31,765 --> 00:37:41,175
Uh, in the, but the, the destroyed relationship, uh, and in particular, the curse, your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.

415
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:50,600
that in there captures, uh, the distorted, cursed, broken, uh, of everything that was in there and was good in Genesis 2.

416
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:57,740
So I, I would say, uh, as I read this, that complementarianism is there before the fall, uh, is part of the good.

417
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,329
Again, that is a fundamental question to get your head around.

418
00:38:00,970 --> 00:38:07,530
Uh, if it actually only appears after Genesis 3, uh, and, uh, also if you say beginnings and ends are really important.

419
00:38:07,885 --> 00:38:10,825
If this is only there in the world of sin, that's one thing.

420
00:38:11,155 --> 00:38:18,275
If it's there before and is the model for the relationship between Christ and his church in the future, uh, then this is a good thing.

421
00:38:19,215 --> 00:38:27,494
Um, and Genesis 2, uh, therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife and they shall become one flesh.

422
00:38:28,075 --> 00:38:32,465
Uh, again, makes it just so much more sad that this is a divisive topic, doesn't it?

423
00:38:32,465 --> 00:38:34,365
This is essentially uniting.

424
00:38:35,185 --> 00:38:44,530
Uh, the goal of all of this is to is that two different things are brought together in love and support and care and fruitfulness.

425
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,109
A friend of mine, I had a talk on this recently, I pointed again, maybe this may be obvious to some of you,

426
00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:56,100
but the, the become one flesh that is true in marriage, in sexual intercourse, but is also profoundly true

427
00:38:56,110 --> 00:39:03,260
in the child that is produced, that that is a place where the two, the male and the female are brought.

428
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:05,190
indissolubly together.

429
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:12,570
Uh, and that the whole thing about this, I'll say some more on that in a bit, but it is about generating fruitfulness.

430
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:16,339
Um, then you, you run through the Old Testament.

431
00:39:16,369 --> 00:39:20,259
I, I'm just going to briefly mention Deborah because it's a, an All Souls story.

432
00:39:20,279 --> 00:39:26,700
So I was invited to speak, uh, at All Souls on a, uh, a week away, uh, several years.

433
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:34,440
Um, before, uh, I ended up as rector and, uh, you know, you pick up things when you go as a visiting speaker, don't you?

434
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:38,980
And I picked up that questions about men and women in church were quite stressful,

435
00:39:39,279 --> 00:39:42,609
uh, partly because we had a question time at the end of my talks on judges.

436
00:39:43,090 --> 00:39:47,560
And there were a number of questions about Deborah and about, uh, and, and the person

437
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,920
who was hosting the question time said, don't answer those, don't answer those.

438
00:39:51,099 --> 00:39:52,170
We'll just bury those.

439
00:39:52,170 --> 00:39:52,860
We don't answer it.

440
00:39:52,860 --> 00:39:58,259
And I'm, and so I, as a naive as to thought, no, I'd quite like to answer those questions.

441
00:39:58,690 --> 00:40:04,629
And not only do I want to answer those questions, but I began the answer, um, by saying, well, as a.

442
00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:12,180
Complementary and I would say, and there was a sort of audible intake of breath, uh, the idea that somebody would identify themselves that way.

443
00:40:12,510 --> 00:40:17,890
Um, I think, um, and I said this in the answer, um, I think Debra is the ideal complementarian woman.

444
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:20,909
Uh, so she is fantastic.

445
00:40:21,489 --> 00:40:22,960
Uh, she is courageous.

446
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,919
She is strong.

447
00:40:23,950 --> 00:40:26,840
She does her best to get a barrack to take the lead.

448
00:40:26,850 --> 00:40:30,590
She would, she's trying to, you know, bring complementarianism into things.

449
00:40:30,660 --> 00:40:34,899
Uh, but in the end, the people need saving and chapter five.

450
00:40:35,710 --> 00:40:43,810
It takes us through those issues, I think really hits one of the few places in the Bible where we have a narrative and a poem next to each other.

451
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:50,860
And the themes of it, there's the obvious one about, uh, if you do this barrack, then you will not get the glory.

452
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,450
The glory will go to a woman.

453
00:40:52,479 --> 00:40:58,920
And there's this fantastic stuff about Deborah and about jail, who is my favorite story in the Bible and has been since I was seven.

454
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:05,735
Um, but, um, Even more than that, there is a theme in there about willingness and volunteering.

455
00:41:06,765 --> 00:41:13,034
Um, the tribes that did volunteer, the tribes that stepped forward, the tribes that offered themselves in the day of need.

456
00:41:13,654 --> 00:41:17,265
And through all of the song, Deborah is standing there singing it.

457
00:41:17,265 --> 00:41:20,715
If you look at Judges 5 verse 1, singing it with Barak.

458
00:41:21,355 --> 00:41:25,305
So it's slightly Kermit the Frog is the image in my head, but he's there next to her

459
00:41:25,335 --> 00:41:31,365
singing as he sings this song about how terrible it is when people will not volunteer.

460
00:41:32,475 --> 00:41:38,425
and will not be willing to step up to take the lead when they're presented with that task by God.

461
00:41:39,715 --> 00:41:45,885
Again, I, I think this is an entirely complementarian passage, uh, with, and again, it helps with the idea.

462
00:41:45,885 --> 00:41:51,565
We have this strange idea in some circles that, uh, if you're a good complementarian woman, you don't express your opinion.

463
00:41:51,565 --> 00:41:52,355
You don't disagree.

464
00:41:52,355 --> 00:41:53,725
You don't challenge.

465
00:41:53,965 --> 00:41:57,785
Whereas Deborah clearly, uh, is capable of all those things.

466
00:41:58,065 --> 00:42:02,645
Uh, and yet, The whole chapter is about, please would Barak, would you take the lead?

467
00:42:02,695 --> 00:42:04,925
He says, no, he gets no glory.

468
00:42:05,625 --> 00:42:12,075
Um, 1 Kings 11, um, we preached on the last two weeks, and I'm going to let you into some of the questions

469
00:42:12,075 --> 00:42:16,455
that were asked there, just in case the questions that you'll put on slider are not sort of fierce enough.

470
00:42:16,865 --> 00:42:20,195
Um, and, um, Um, the,

471
00:42:22,565 --> 00:42:27,505
the, again, it struck me that this is a gloriously positive passage.

472
00:42:28,185 --> 00:42:33,825
Uh, so it is about, uh, how the woman can do ministry.

473
00:42:33,905 --> 00:42:39,374
So the end product, I had to point this out to someone in our congregation who had thought I had sold the past and been entirely,

474
00:42:39,425 --> 00:42:44,945
uh, far too liberal, but you know, she, the, the, the end product of the chapter is she does pray and she does prophesy.

475
00:42:45,065 --> 00:42:46,455
I was like, Oh yeah, that's a good point.

476
00:42:46,535 --> 00:42:47,065
Never thought of that.

477
00:42:47,415 --> 00:42:50,634
Um, but also, um, it is about.

478
00:42:51,435 --> 00:42:52,025
glory.

479
00:42:52,575 --> 00:42:57,555
Uh, everybody in the chapter is glorious and displays glory.

480
00:42:57,955 --> 00:42:59,315
Uh, it is about image.

481
00:42:59,345 --> 00:43:04,405
I think it, um, I found in case you've not seen this before, I was taken to chapter 15

482
00:43:04,415 --> 00:43:10,514
verse 49, which I found very helpful where it says that, um, we all bear the image of Adam.

483
00:43:11,564 --> 00:43:20,880
Um, so When 1 Corinthians 11 says that the woman, that man is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

484
00:43:21,259 --> 00:43:26,829
I don't think at all that is denying Genesis 1, that women are in the image of God equally.

485
00:43:27,169 --> 00:43:28,689
I am in the image of Adam.

486
00:43:28,789 --> 00:43:31,189
That does not deny the fact that I'm also in the image of God.

487
00:43:31,729 --> 00:43:39,395
Um, And it has this glorious section that I quite enjoyed preaching about the fact that, uh, none of us are independent of women.

488
00:43:39,715 --> 00:43:48,535
And we imagined, uh, you know, the, the, the most powerful bro that you could, uh, when he was a baby and how he was entirely dependent on

489
00:43:48,535 --> 00:43:57,215
the woman who carried him, uh, and gave birth to him and then nursed him, uh, and that he was entirely unable to do anything for himself.

490
00:43:57,730 --> 00:44:06,760
Um, and 1 Corinthians 11 belongs within its section, uh, which is all about, I think, uh, come to church for the good of other people.

491
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:11,399
I think that, that 8 to 10 is sort of come, go to, into your life for the good of other people.

492
00:44:11,820 --> 00:44:20,330
Uh, 11 through to 14, come to church for the good of other people, which includes come to church, uh, in the body that you were, you were made in.

493
00:44:21,175 --> 00:44:24,175
come to church as the man that you are or the woman that you are.

494
00:44:25,605 --> 00:44:32,194
Um, 1 Timothy 2, um, again is talking about, uh, what pleases God.

495
00:44:32,194 --> 00:44:40,124
So this is, uh, verse 3, um, and it's, it's talking about, uh, therefore, so sorry, let me just get it open.

496
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,920
1 Timothy 2, uh, verse 3 is talking about how we behave and says, this is good.

497
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,770
It's pleasing in the sight of God, our Savior.

498
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:56,800
And then verse 8 begins with a, with a then, with a therefore, uh, and that,

499
00:44:56,830 --> 00:45:00,420
that the men should pray in this way and the women should behave in this way.

500
00:45:00,850 --> 00:45:07,350
And then we head into chapter 3 where, uh, eldership is, uh, sexed.

501
00:45:07,660 --> 00:45:16,580
Is, uh, assumed to be male, and again, 3 verse 15, uh, this is all gloriously good and surprisingly good.

502
00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:20,800
If I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of gods, the family

503
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:26,699
of gods, uh, the, uh, place that is a bit like the household described in Ephesians 5.

504
00:45:27,170 --> 00:45:34,450
Uh, within which wives and husbands and children and parents and servants and masters behave in the ways that make for good order

505
00:45:34,450 --> 00:45:41,520
of the households, uh, and the household of God, which is the church of the living gods, a pillar and a buttress of the truth.

506
00:45:42,130 --> 00:45:49,960
Um, so the, the, the kind of ordering that he's been talking about is what secures the kind of church

507
00:45:50,330 --> 00:45:56,380
that leads to, uh, the truth of God being held up or whatever it is that pillars and buttresses do.

508
00:45:57,195 --> 00:46:06,045
And then just to finish the Bible in Revelation 21, which is also where lots of Old Testament material lands from bride and husband, God

509
00:46:06,064 --> 00:46:18,475
and his bride Israel, and lands with a relationship that will be wonderful and loving and asymmetric and non reversible for all eternity.

510
00:46:19,305 --> 00:46:27,194
Again, all saying that this is not peripheral, the Bible is not embarrassed about this, this is all good where it lands.

511
00:46:28,815 --> 00:46:32,165
Okay, so, um, that's a survey of some biblical material.

512
00:46:32,475 --> 00:46:36,265
Um, and again, as I said, it may be that I'm only talking to myself here in Sydney.

513
00:46:36,655 --> 00:46:38,175
Uh, that you all know this is good.

514
00:46:38,355 --> 00:46:40,354
Uh, you know it's good for women and for men.

515
00:46:40,645 --> 00:46:45,634
You know that it is good for marriage and good for the children, uh, that those marriages may produce.

516
00:46:45,975 --> 00:46:49,544
You know that it is good for profound reflection on the nature of God.

517
00:46:50,165 --> 00:46:53,885
You know that it's good for evangelism, uh, especially of husbands, it seems.

518
00:46:54,415 --> 00:46:56,825
You know that it's good for churches, which is good for the truth.

519
00:46:57,585 --> 00:47:04,705
Um, uh, but again, from our, um, strange, thin, distorted place in England, uh, I think we

520
00:47:04,705 --> 00:47:09,454
are learning a lesson about, uh, from what's happened in the last 20 years on sexuality.

521
00:47:10,005 --> 00:47:17,414
Um, that there are multiple, multiple, multiple churches who have always believed what the Bible said about sexuality,

522
00:47:17,925 --> 00:47:25,045
uh, have always, uh, held it firmly, uh, within their leadership teams and are actually, we're now discovering.

523
00:47:25,415 --> 00:47:27,055
Are willing to be public about it.

524
00:47:27,095 --> 00:47:33,765
There've been some wonderful, glorious moments where people who had been silent and are stepping forward and speaking.

525
00:47:34,245 --> 00:47:41,165
Um, But, if you think something is true but you're reluctant to teach it, uh, you don't bring it up, you don't

526
00:47:41,165 --> 00:47:47,064
talk about it, you don't allow it to be disagreed with, eventually no one in your church will believe it.

527
00:47:47,904 --> 00:47:51,765
Because the culture is communicating to your church all of the time.

528
00:47:51,774 --> 00:47:57,025
The statistic isn't there for parents, about the percentage time you have with your children compared

529
00:47:57,025 --> 00:48:01,585
to the percentage time the culture has with your children, it's like 99 percent or something.

530
00:48:01,875 --> 00:48:05,785
But the same for churches pastors, um, that people are reading things.

531
00:48:05,935 --> 00:48:13,725
thinking, talking, engaging constantly, and that's not a problem because God's Word is powerful and, uh, takes thoughts captive.

532
00:48:14,105 --> 00:48:19,415
But if you then make the decision not to teach, not to present the bits of the Bible that are about

533
00:48:19,415 --> 00:48:25,374
this, uh, you avoid the discomfort, you avoid the hostile questions and the difficult conversations.

534
00:48:25,374 --> 00:48:27,315
But again, the same has been true of sexuality.

535
00:48:27,735 --> 00:48:34,720
I've had people walk out of talks that I've given who have then walked walk back in as Christians a couple of weeks later.

536
00:48:35,490 --> 00:48:43,160
But without the sort of, oh, I can't believe you've just said that moment, they would never have been confronted with what the gospel really was.

537
00:48:43,995 --> 00:48:48,265
I'm not saying this issue is a gospel issue in the same way, but if we won't teach

538
00:48:48,265 --> 00:48:53,735
it, eventually our churches will, uh, by default believe what the culture believes.

539
00:48:54,615 --> 00:48:54,875
Okay.

540
00:48:54,904 --> 00:48:57,425
I'm going to suggest that we pause and have a stretch before I go to point two.

541
00:48:57,505 --> 00:48:58,515
Is that a good idea, Jane?

542
00:48:59,285 --> 00:49:02,034
Um, you can be using Slido right away.

543
00:49:02,034 --> 00:49:03,024
Should I try and put that back?

544
00:49:03,075 --> 00:49:05,145
And that didn't give you a couple of minutes to stretch.

545
00:49:08,505 --> 00:49:15,550
And what we've got in the The second part is some suggestions from me of why this is so divisive.

546
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:20,350
Um, I'm expecting you to find some of them less relevant to your situation.

547
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,840
You may find some of them unconvincing entirely.

548
00:49:23,149 --> 00:49:26,209
Uh, one or two of them, I think I could show you biblically.

549
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:30,560
Some of them are simply from my experience, which I offer to you to see what you think.

550
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,240
So, um, Why is this divisive?

551
00:49:33,290 --> 00:49:37,100
Well, again, I've said it's about unity, but it is also about, about division.

552
00:49:37,130 --> 00:49:41,800
So we are talking about the fact that men and women, uh, are dimorphic.

553
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,729
There is within our species, this difference between men and women.

554
00:49:45,739 --> 00:49:47,529
They are, they are not the same.

555
00:49:47,869 --> 00:49:52,280
And, um, When we came to preach 1 Corinthians 11, we're working through 1 Corinthians.

556
00:49:52,660 --> 00:49:57,710
Uh, I, uh, delayed for two years from the end of chapter 10 before we actually got to chapter 11.

557
00:49:58,090 --> 00:50:02,979
Um, so please don't read anything into the last half hour and imagine courage or any of that.

558
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:11,970
Um, but when we came to it, I thought, actually, I cannot just launch into the, this talk that I gave on this chapter the last time I preached it 10

559
00:50:11,970 --> 00:50:22,520
years ago, because, um, The discussion about gender and sex and transgender has moved to such a degree, we've got to talk about that first of all.

560
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:28,040
We've got to talk about whether men and women are real before we can talk about how men and women relate in church.

561
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:36,055
And in God's timing, the Sunday I picked turned out to be The Sunday, three days after the cast report was published, uh, in England.

562
00:50:36,065 --> 00:50:43,315
So again, the, even in the week that I was writing the sermon, the discussion in our country moved enormously

563
00:50:43,325 --> 00:50:49,015
with about 900 newspapers trying to pretend that they'd agreed with her all along when they definitely hadn't.

564
00:50:49,495 --> 00:50:52,905
Um, but, but if we're actually saying men and women are.

565
00:50:53,130 --> 00:50:56,920
different and that that is biologically rooted.

566
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:57,120
Sorry.

567
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:04,489
The cast report was a major review of our health service in the provision that had been made for those presenting with gender

568
00:51:04,489 --> 00:51:14,250
dysphoria, where we had been, um, accelerating massively the offer of, uh, therapies and then even surgeries from quite early age.

569
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:19,200
And finally, somebody said, do you, do you have any evidence that is actually doing good, not harm.

570
00:51:19,590 --> 00:51:20,820
And maybe we should stop.

571
00:51:21,329 --> 00:51:26,485
Um, So, yeah, so I was able then to preach that first sermon about the nature of identity

572
00:51:26,485 --> 00:51:34,664
and humanity about actually, uh, to be male and to be female is, is essential to our biology.

573
00:51:34,715 --> 00:51:37,445
And as I said earlier, it is, it is generative.

574
00:51:38,345 --> 00:51:45,395
And I got this from a man called Christopher West, uh, who visited, was brought over to England to speak to, uh, a broad range of us.

575
00:51:45,425 --> 00:51:49,435
I think he was brought over because he is HTB's second favorite Roman Catholic.

576
00:51:49,785 --> 00:51:52,065
Uh, so that's why he was a good choice for someone to bring over.

577
00:51:52,415 --> 00:51:59,065
Um, and he did this brilliant thing with, which again, just, I'm not very good at Latin, I think, but, um, the gen in Genesis.

578
00:52:00,020 --> 00:52:04,640
is the same gen as in gender and in generations and generative.

579
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,830
Um, and that's not accidental.

580
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:14,660
You need two genders in order to generate the next generation and that this is where the fruitfulness comes from.

581
00:52:14,690 --> 00:52:21,145
And he, he did a brilliant presentation on that about why therefore, um, same sex marriage was not a good idea.

582
00:52:21,455 --> 00:52:24,835
And then the complementarians in the room went up to him and said, hang on, the logic you've just

583
00:52:24,835 --> 00:52:28,445
used, doesn't that mean that, um, men and women are different and should be different in church?

584
00:52:28,474 --> 00:52:29,705
And he said, well, yeah, I'm a Roman Catholic.

585
00:52:29,715 --> 00:52:30,295
Of course I think that.

586
00:52:30,685 --> 00:52:33,325
Um, but he hadn't said that to, um, to everybody else.

587
00:52:33,615 --> 00:52:40,770
Um, but, um, If we have here a a binary dimorphism, a difference, then actually it's not

588
00:52:40,780 --> 00:52:47,460
surprising this teaching will strike me differently from how it strikes the women in the room.

589
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:51,749
Um, actually if we had longer, a conversation I've had frequently with students

590
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:56,020
over the years is the one that goes, okay, you don't like what's in Ephesians five.

591
00:52:56,020 --> 00:52:59,140
Tell me who has the harder job, the woman or the man.

592
00:52:59,820 --> 00:53:03,970
And again, initially people will say, Oh, clearly it's the woman having to do this hideous submission thing.

593
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,340
And then you read through and you read through and you think, actually.

594
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:16,090
Uh, the thing that to be like Jesus and, and sacrifice, but it's not surprising if this lands on us differently, um, Genesis three, I think

595
00:53:16,130 --> 00:53:24,190
tells us that we should expect this to be difficult because the relationship between men and women has been specifically cursed by God.

596
00:53:25,250 --> 00:53:31,230
Uh, that I think, again, the end of that verse that I read is talking about the fact that men and women will tend

597
00:53:31,230 --> 00:53:38,080
to be in conflict and will be like that in the same way that the ground tends to produce thorns and thistles.

598
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:43,810
My, um, my other weird hobby, uh, is, uh, as well as kayaking, is scything.

599
00:53:44,685 --> 00:53:50,715
Uh, and my wife and I booked on a romantic, uh, scything course quite soon after I get back home.

600
00:53:51,045 --> 00:53:55,015
And we have his and hers scythes, uh, and, and it's brilliant.

601
00:53:55,015 --> 00:54:01,624
But the reason I would say is there's a little patch of ground that for 35 years has grown only brambles and nettles.

602
00:54:02,154 --> 00:54:06,405
Um, and the fact that I'm here now means that I am losing.

603
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:13,000
The fact that I'm not there scything right now means that by the time I get there, the nettles will be taller than my head.

604
00:54:13,460 --> 00:54:21,975
Um, if we expect that in a field, Why are we so surprised, uh, in our marriages, in, uh, the relationships between

605
00:54:21,995 --> 00:54:27,575
men and women on a staff team, the relationships between men and women in a college, uh, that those are difficult?

606
00:54:28,354 --> 00:54:35,864
Um, there was a phrase from someone that I'm going to talk about in a second, uh, which was the claim that marriage is varsity.

607
00:54:35,885 --> 00:54:36,764
Have you heard that claim?

608
00:54:37,390 --> 00:54:41,090
That the sort of the idea was that you're a kind of normal Christian until you get married.

609
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:44,890
And then when you get married, the sort of the challenge of trying to be married and

610
00:54:44,890 --> 00:54:49,360
live with your own sin in a marriage is the thing that really makes you a good Christian.

611
00:54:49,419 --> 00:54:50,470
And I think that's wrong.

612
00:54:50,990 --> 00:54:53,850
Um, uh, I believe in one Corinthians seven.

613
00:54:53,879 --> 00:54:59,530
I've noticed that, um, that countries that begin with a tend not to believe in one Corinthians seven.

614
00:54:59,890 --> 00:55:01,830
Uh, and I only think of America.

615
00:55:02,075 --> 00:55:03,575
and Australia when I say that.

616
00:55:04,125 --> 00:55:10,010
Um, when, uh, when we did a, uh, question time at our church on 1 Corinthians

617
00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:13,595
11, uh, I gave away in the question time, the survey we'd done of our church.

618
00:55:13,635 --> 00:55:19,944
Our church is over 50 percent single, um, which is partly a feature of being the centre of London.

619
00:55:19,955 --> 00:55:23,585
Lots of younger people were also the kind of church that you might go to if you'd had

620
00:55:23,585 --> 00:55:27,555
a, an unhappy divorce and you wanted somewhere to go where everyone didn't know you.

621
00:55:27,935 --> 00:55:31,515
Um, but, um, so I threw out this statistic and someone put in the, in the Q and a.

622
00:55:32,205 --> 00:55:34,425
On Slido, 50 percent singles.

623
00:55:34,715 --> 00:55:36,045
That's a disaster.

624
00:55:36,555 --> 00:55:38,575
I think they were probably American or Australian.

625
00:55:38,845 --> 00:55:44,665
Um, but it's sort of singleness, I believe is good, but, uh, it is certainly true that when you marry two

626
00:55:44,685 --> 00:55:51,854
sinners into one body, that the curse of Genesis three is experienced very profoundly and very clearly.

627
00:55:52,284 --> 00:55:53,675
Uh, the thorns and the thistle.

628
00:55:53,685 --> 00:55:54,805
So it's not surprising.

629
00:55:54,805 --> 00:55:55,185
We found this.

630
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:56,510
divisive.

631
00:55:56,540 --> 00:55:59,470
Um, something on being a narrow or a broad complementarian.

632
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:06,340
I only put that just to prove whether I'd read Jane's book, um, about this, but, um, so a narrow complementarian is someone

633
00:56:06,340 --> 00:56:14,549
who believes that these truths apply into the spheres where the Bible talks about them, into the home and into the church,

634
00:56:14,579 --> 00:56:22,010
because it is a bit like a home, but that it does not apply into how men and women conduct themselves in wider society.

635
00:56:22,510 --> 00:56:25,470
Uh, and whereas a broad complementarian is someone who.

636
00:56:25,725 --> 00:56:30,225
thinks that it does and has strong applications elsewhere.

637
00:56:30,255 --> 00:56:33,535
And the, um, the only thing I thought I'd mention here is that, um, it struck me

638
00:56:33,535 --> 00:56:37,774
going to All Souls, that All Souls is sort of messily complementarian as I'd said.

639
00:56:38,194 --> 00:56:46,155
Uh, and so we have, um, quite a dialed back list of ways in which complementarianism applies, but that is

640
00:56:46,195 --> 00:56:53,990
in tension with the fact that All Souls is is sort of the broadest, broad thing that I've ever been part of.

641
00:56:54,030 --> 00:56:58,470
As in, uh, every truth that we believe, we want the whole world to believe.

642
00:56:58,470 --> 00:57:03,950
And we want, we're committed to influencing policy and politics and workplace and all of life.

643
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:09,290
Um, so the complementarianism of all souls sits quite unhappily in that.

644
00:57:09,290 --> 00:57:15,180
So I'm quite happy as a narrow complementarian, uh, because I'm pastoring people about their marriages

645
00:57:15,210 --> 00:57:19,440
and we're making choices about what we do on our staff team in our church family, and I'm not.

646
00:57:19,595 --> 00:57:23,955
really that bothered about what is going on, uh, and the kind of jobs people are choosing

647
00:57:23,955 --> 00:57:27,635
and the way they conduct themselves at work, other than I'd love them to be godly.

648
00:57:28,014 --> 00:57:35,785
Um, but actually, if you are a committed to, uh, making the whole world like the kingdom of God kind of church, which

649
00:57:35,785 --> 00:57:43,315
all souls is, then to believe Confrontarianism and not do that with it, uh, is a, is an uncomfortable, uh, thing.

650
00:57:44,045 --> 00:57:46,784
Um, here's one I think I want to talk about just for a little bit.

651
00:57:47,155 --> 00:57:53,260
I'm I don't know what you would think, uh, but it's common parlance in England

652
00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:58,020
to say that this is a secondary issue, but that it is an important issue.

653
00:57:58,970 --> 00:58:03,700
Um, so it's secondary as in what you believe on this does not affect whether you go to heaven.

654
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:06,839
Uh, it does not cause me to divide.

655
00:58:06,899 --> 00:58:10,390
I don't need to break communion with anybody if they disagree with me on this and I would like

656
00:58:10,390 --> 00:58:14,780
them not to break communion with me because of what I believe on this, but it is important.

657
00:58:15,010 --> 00:58:19,110
in that it does affect what you do in church and what you do in marriage and how you live your life.

658
00:58:19,490 --> 00:58:25,700
Um, but just observation that that is a very difficult place to live and operate.

659
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:29,660
Um, and so most churches don't really try.

660
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,979
Uh, so most churches I think are either egalitarian or complementarian.

661
00:58:34,790 --> 00:58:39,120
Uh, even though if it's a secondary issue, it ought to be possible to try and live together.

662
00:58:39,570 --> 00:58:43,280
Um, and the only two places I've been that are really trying was Oak Hill college.

663
00:58:43,289 --> 00:58:51,989
When I was there as a student, uh, and, uh, all salts where we have, uh, arrange on the staff, uh, and, uh, we're trying to honor.

664
00:58:52,770 --> 00:58:58,250
both positions while making decisions that are in line with the complementarian position that the church has taken.

665
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,140
Um, and, uh, so here are some ways in which that's quite difficult.

666
00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:09,860
I'm often accused of, um, believing things that I don't believe about female clergy and female bishops.

667
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:16,230
Uh, so as in, I'll be accused of thinking that they're terrible people for, for being female clergy and female bishops.

668
00:59:16,260 --> 00:59:17,400
I don't believe that at all.

669
00:59:17,670 --> 00:59:20,080
So I want to correct that misunderstanding.

670
00:59:20,719 --> 00:59:25,120
Uh, but when I sit down with Bishop Sarah and say, no, no, no, no, no, you've got me all wrong.

671
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,770
It's just not a big deal for me.

672
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:28,290
or something like that.

673
00:59:28,860 --> 00:59:35,120
Um, you can probably hear why she finds that a deeply offensive and regressible thing for me to say, because it is a big deal for her.

674
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:44,020
Uh, cause I'm saying that actually I cannot recognize her as the spiritual head over me, uh, in our church, but I'm trying to say it's, it's okay.

675
00:59:44,020 --> 00:59:45,029
It's only a secondary issue.

676
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:47,100
Uh, but the only.

677
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,580
in there is a quite painful part of the relationship to negotiate.

678
00:59:52,220 --> 00:59:55,360
Um, also it leads to questions about whether you're consistent.

679
00:59:55,780 --> 01:00:03,200
Uh, so in the Q and A at All Souls last week, um, one of the questions that came in was this, you are contradicting yourselves.

680
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:08,020
If you think women shouldn't preach, why do you train them to do it outside of All Souls?

681
01:00:10,395 --> 01:00:14,315
So again, and this is the position I've held at St Helens as well, is that we

682
01:00:14,315 --> 01:00:18,245
give exactly the same training to the men and the women on our training schemes.

683
01:00:18,745 --> 01:00:20,735
We give them the same tools in Bible handling.

684
01:00:20,735 --> 01:00:28,745
We teach them in the same way, how to give talks, and at All Souls in particular, though this actually would have been true at St Helens as well.

685
01:00:28,745 --> 01:00:30,549
We are.

686
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:38,930
keen to support them as they make their own conscience decision about what spheres they can or can't use those, uh, those gifts in.

687
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,970
Um, but you hear the accusation, you're inconsistent.

688
01:00:43,250 --> 01:00:45,119
If you think it's wrong, you should stop them.

689
01:00:45,699 --> 01:00:50,320
Uh, whereas again, if I think it's a secondary issue, I think I want them to make their own decision.

690
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:55,500
Um, I've had a whole series of, of awkward conversations on this.

691
01:00:55,510 --> 01:01:01,660
There was one in particular where a local vicar put me on the spot and said, do you think I'm a false teacher?

692
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:08,309
Um, and happily I, I thought for a second before answering, and I realized that she meant because I am an ordained woman.

693
01:01:09,159 --> 01:01:14,470
Um, and so, um, and the trouble was the truthful answer was, um, I do think you're a false

694
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:19,020
teacher, but not because you're an ordained woman, which is quite a difficult, um, line to deliver.

695
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:24,850
Uh, in a sort of happy, friendly chat where I wanted something by the end of the conversation.

696
01:01:25,210 --> 01:01:28,950
Um, so, um, here's what I tried to say, but again, you might want to ask about this.

697
01:01:28,990 --> 01:01:30,194
I said, well, I, I don't.

698
01:01:30,475 --> 01:01:38,404
No, but let me, maybe it will help if I say Liz Goddard, uh, people know Liz Goddard, she wrote, um, the book, one of the books with Claire Smith.

699
01:01:38,405 --> 01:01:39,185
No, Claire Hendry.

700
01:01:40,065 --> 01:01:40,515
That's right.

701
01:01:40,575 --> 01:01:46,385
Uh, which is a helpful conversation between two, uh, women who take opposite views on this.

702
01:01:46,530 --> 01:01:54,010
Um, and, um, so what, so Liz Goddard, for example, I think is a good evangelical Christian and a good Bible teacher.

703
01:01:54,370 --> 01:01:59,540
I couldn't in conscience do what she does, uh, and I also couldn't go and be her curate.

704
01:02:00,099 --> 01:02:02,810
Um, but nor do I think she's sinful for doing what she does.

705
01:02:02,859 --> 01:02:08,210
Uh, and certainly I don't think she's a false teacher or does it have communion breaking consequences for me.

706
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:12,630
Um, but again, you can see that's a slightly awkward conversation.

707
01:02:12,730 --> 01:02:16,599
Uh, it's secondary, but it might not be for the person I'm talking to.

708
01:02:17,620 --> 01:02:21,900
Um, me too, and the sexual revolution.

709
01:02:22,330 --> 01:02:34,830
So, um, we're having this conversation in a world where life is not good for women in Western societies.

710
01:02:35,180 --> 01:02:37,740
And I think that is, that is enormously important.

711
01:02:37,749 --> 01:02:41,009
Let me give you an example from a different passage in one Corinthians.

712
01:02:41,010 --> 01:02:48,600
I spoke on one Corinthians six, uh, which teaches that, uh, you should, uh, Take

713
01:02:48,610 --> 01:02:52,250
care of what you do with your body sexually because your body doesn't belong to you.

714
01:02:52,590 --> 01:02:54,080
It belongs to Jesus.

715
01:02:54,400 --> 01:03:03,880
Um, and I chose against the advice of my staff team to use my body, my choice as a sort of illustration conversation partner.

716
01:03:03,940 --> 01:03:12,460
So my body, my choice, which has been a, uh, an excellent campaign all around the world, uh, attacking

717
01:03:12,470 --> 01:03:21,195
the, hideous male idea that men have some kind of right to the bodies of women to do with as they wish.

718
01:03:22,345 --> 01:03:26,945
But my body, my choice, I'd suggest is not a Christian idea.

719
01:03:27,825 --> 01:03:28,865
It's not my body.

720
01:03:29,185 --> 01:03:30,994
It belongs to the Lord Jesus.

721
01:03:31,025 --> 01:03:39,945
And I mean that in an entirely gender equal way, my body, her body, anybody's um, but because I was giving that sermon in a

722
01:03:39,945 --> 01:03:49,150
world where enormous harm is being done to women, uh, in which that slogan has been a helpful tool to mitigate those harms.

723
01:03:49,630 --> 01:03:54,800
Uh, it, it, it actually, that, you know, the conversation you're having is not sort of on neutral grounds.

724
01:03:55,149 --> 01:04:00,440
Um, and even more, cause I think there could be an opportunity to join the conversation in a better way.

725
01:04:00,459 --> 01:04:03,469
So, um, here's a book you may have come across people.

726
01:04:03,955 --> 01:04:05,275
seen this book, found this book.

727
01:04:05,595 --> 01:04:08,065
Uh, Louise Perry is not a Christian.

728
01:04:08,515 --> 01:04:11,975
Um, no fan of Ephesians five in particular.

729
01:04:12,305 --> 01:04:16,135
Um, she writes for the new Statesman as well as other places.

730
01:04:16,185 --> 01:04:23,674
And she was a mainstream liberal feminist who began doing work with female victims of male sexual violence.

731
01:04:24,144 --> 01:04:32,075
And she found that the things that as a liberal feminist, she was supposed to say to them were not just useless.

732
01:04:32,325 --> 01:04:38,225
In providing comfort, but actually dangerous, uh, in terms of what they, uh, what they did.

733
01:04:38,235 --> 01:04:45,305
She said her conclusion, the sexual revolution has been bad for everyone and it has been terrible for women.

734
01:04:45,985 --> 01:04:49,235
Uh, and, uh, and she says, we need a technology.

735
01:04:49,945 --> 01:04:55,055
Uh, we need a technology that discourages short termism in male sexual behavior, protects the

736
01:04:55,055 --> 01:04:59,844
economic interests of mothers, and creates a stable environment for the raising of children.

737
01:05:00,204 --> 01:05:02,735
And we do already have such a technology.

738
01:05:03,195 --> 01:05:04,855
It's called monogamous marriage.

739
01:05:05,395 --> 01:05:10,735
Uh, so she comes out strongly in favor of marriage and fascinating other stuff about, uh, dating.

740
01:05:10,955 --> 01:05:17,605
But all of her book is posited on the idea she's come to that men and women are different.

741
01:05:18,305 --> 01:05:20,275
And again, it's fascinating reading as she goes through it.

742
01:05:20,275 --> 01:05:26,905
I don't buy all of her evolutionary sort of biology explanations for it, but it's absolutely fascinating.

743
01:05:26,965 --> 01:05:29,335
I'm not sure we have time, but I was going to do a couple of quizzes.

744
01:05:29,345 --> 01:05:30,855
So let's just do the quiz.

745
01:05:31,175 --> 01:05:32,845
So which of these statements are true?

746
01:05:33,105 --> 01:05:35,624
Is it true that men and women have different thickness of skin?

747
01:05:35,634 --> 01:05:36,705
Raise your hand if you think that's true.

748
01:05:37,755 --> 01:05:39,043
If you're online, be glad.

749
01:05:39,043 --> 01:05:39,387
Okay.

750
01:05:39,387 --> 01:05:41,453
Some people say that is true.

751
01:05:41,453 --> 01:05:42,486
It is true.

752
01:05:42,486 --> 01:05:43,174
Uh, 25%.

753
01:05:43,765 --> 01:05:44,975
thicker skin men have.

754
01:05:45,245 --> 01:05:50,325
Uh, is it true that men and women have a different second longest finger on their hands?

755
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:52,159
Raise your hand if you think that's true.

756
01:05:54,220 --> 01:05:55,420
A few more, it is true.

757
01:05:55,470 --> 01:06:01,270
So, uh, the, for the man it is the ring finger, for the woman it is the index finger,

758
01:06:01,309 --> 01:06:05,720
which means you can check now and see if you're appropriately manly, uh, or womanly.

759
01:06:06,019 --> 01:06:08,659
Um, I'm a bit dubious about myself, uh, on that.

760
01:06:08,890 --> 01:06:13,320
Um, how about during exercise, men and women have a different primary fuel, true or false?

761
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:20,150
Is in fact true, uh, true men tend to use carbohydrate where women use fat.

762
01:06:20,450 --> 01:06:24,249
Uh, and is it true that men and women have a different sensitivity to cold temperatures?

763
01:06:25,140 --> 01:06:25,459
Okay.

764
01:06:25,459 --> 01:06:28,209
There's a lot of nodding for that, except that in our household, it's the

765
01:06:28,209 --> 01:06:33,360
wrong way around, um, again, in many ways, but, um, that is all a little bit.

766
01:06:33,915 --> 01:06:34,445
Frivolous.

767
01:06:34,465 --> 01:06:34,925
Just check.

768
01:06:34,935 --> 01:06:35,555
Can I know.

769
01:06:35,575 --> 01:06:35,815
Oh, yeah.

770
01:06:35,815 --> 01:06:36,065
Sorry.

771
01:06:36,095 --> 01:06:40,375
And then it there, there, this is just the differences tend to overlap.

772
01:06:41,005 --> 01:06:47,904
Here's one in particular that demonstrates that I should not put myself forward as stronger than women because you'll

773
01:06:47,904 --> 01:06:53,655
see I'm one of the weakest male in data and the strongest female athlete will be significantly stronger than me.

774
01:06:54,005 --> 01:07:00,065
Um, but in her book, um, The, I think the most shocking line in the whole book,

775
01:07:00,435 --> 01:07:06,705
uh, most men can kill most women with their bare hands and not vice versa.

776
01:07:07,555 --> 01:07:10,755
Um, I spoke to a father in our church.

777
01:07:10,795 --> 01:07:14,395
Uh, I've been reading the book, I've been talking about it and I said, isn't that a brilliant book?

778
01:07:14,784 --> 01:07:17,034
He said, no, it's a horrible book.

779
01:07:17,555 --> 01:07:19,025
Uh, father of daughters.

780
01:07:19,950 --> 01:07:22,830
reading about the world in which his daughters were growing up.

781
01:07:23,140 --> 01:07:27,100
Um, again, I've been reading some of the news articles this week.

782
01:07:27,630 --> 01:07:33,440
Uh, and, uh, the one I read today, a woman has been killed on average every four days so far this year.

783
01:07:33,939 --> 01:07:37,580
Uh, I thought I'd check what it is for the UK and it is every three days.

784
01:07:38,295 --> 01:07:39,115
in the UK.

785
01:07:39,965 --> 01:07:43,075
On this then, there is a sort of, um, Cassandra feeling.

786
01:07:43,085 --> 01:07:48,955
So Cassandra in classical mythology, her curse was to be always right and never believed.

787
01:07:49,584 --> 01:07:53,595
So she warned the city, she warned the city, they didn't believe her, but she was right.

788
01:07:54,074 --> 01:07:59,704
Um, in the area of, uh, male violence against women, it might actually be that

789
01:07:59,725 --> 01:08:04,845
complementarianism has the answer, and yet everybody's convinced that it is the problem.

790
01:08:05,655 --> 01:08:08,245
Um, and again, if, if we would talk about it.

791
01:08:09,625 --> 01:08:10,945
And gender stereotypes.

792
01:08:11,015 --> 01:08:15,405
Um, so again, in the question time at church, we had, how do we distinguish between

793
01:08:15,415 --> 01:08:20,175
social constructs that hinder women and the God given differences of women to men?

794
01:08:20,805 --> 01:08:27,075
Um, see the moment you say that men and women complement each other, you, and probably are there some questions

795
01:08:27,075 --> 01:08:33,835
on this that James can answer, uh, on, uh, you know, how and how does that play out and what are the differences?

796
01:08:33,875 --> 01:08:39,745
And the problem is we get so much of our practical information on how to do that from role models.

797
01:08:40,755 --> 01:08:43,995
most of whom are not the Bible, often bad ones.

798
01:08:44,445 --> 01:08:46,045
So again, I just thought you'd be bored by now.

799
01:08:46,045 --> 01:08:49,405
So here is a game that I've done with our Church Weekend Away on this.

800
01:08:49,904 --> 01:08:51,525
You may not know who those two people are.

801
01:08:51,575 --> 01:08:53,804
If not, I'm happy to tell you, but well done.

802
01:08:54,085 --> 01:09:04,495
So the one on the left is Andrew Tate, who is a YouTube social media influencer, and not a peripheral one, or at least not in England.

803
01:09:05,145 --> 01:09:13,830
So in my children's schools, um, the schools all of them, uh, ended up having to engage directly

804
01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:20,929
with his ideas because massive numbers of young boys were watching his stuff and agreeing with it.

805
01:09:20,940 --> 01:09:23,060
He's a self confessed misogynist.

806
01:09:23,570 --> 01:09:27,779
Uh, his material is about how to disadvantage women for your own gain.

807
01:09:28,030 --> 01:09:31,309
He is currently on trial for sex trafficking and rape.

808
01:09:31,879 --> 01:09:33,139
Um, so that is Andrew Tate.

809
01:09:33,419 --> 01:09:39,809
And then, uh, next who, uh, was huge in the UK anyway, about 10 years ago.

810
01:09:40,325 --> 01:09:48,745
Uh, loads of people were listening to his sort of shock preacher, uh, uh, and in particular how to be a real man.

811
01:09:48,754 --> 01:09:52,065
So the game I played with my church weekend was, uh, Tate or Driscoll.

812
01:09:52,115 --> 01:09:52,365
Okay.

813
01:09:52,365 --> 01:09:54,395
So, uh, can you tell the difference?

814
01:09:54,714 --> 01:09:56,344
So who do you think said this?

815
01:09:56,425 --> 01:10:00,185
Was that, uh, there's a large contingent of men out there who don't want to wear makeup, don't

816
01:10:00,245 --> 01:10:03,875
want to be girls, who don't want to be told they're toxic because they want to go to the gym.

817
01:10:04,375 --> 01:10:06,645
Uh, do you think that is Tate or Driscoll?

818
01:10:09,150 --> 01:10:10,620
Okay, that is Tate, actually.

819
01:10:10,660 --> 01:10:10,850
There you go.

820
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,000
Um, the point is it's hard to tell.

821
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:13,810
That's the only point.

822
01:10:14,050 --> 01:10:18,280
Uh, uh, I'm very confrontational, not some pansy ass therapist.

823
01:10:18,809 --> 01:10:19,910
Uh, who's that?

824
01:10:21,210 --> 01:10:21,780
Could be either.

825
01:10:21,820 --> 01:10:22,630
That is Driscoll.

826
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:27,690
Um, when men try to act in a masculine way, it's toxic masculinity.

827
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:29,890
They demonize us.

828
01:10:29,900 --> 01:10:30,390
They shame us.

829
01:10:32,475 --> 01:10:32,905
That's tight.

830
01:10:32,975 --> 01:10:33,625
That is tight.

831
01:10:33,955 --> 01:10:34,525
Uh, okay.

832
01:10:34,525 --> 01:10:35,175
How about this one?

833
01:10:35,485 --> 01:10:41,505
The problem with the church today, it's just a bunch of nice, soft, tender, chickified church boys.

834
01:10:42,015 --> 01:10:47,024
60 percent of Christians are chicks and the 40 percent that are dudes are still chicks.

835
01:10:48,035 --> 01:10:48,825
Um, who's that?

836
01:10:48,825 --> 01:10:49,525
That is Driscoll.

837
01:10:49,805 --> 01:10:51,235
That's, that's more obviously Driscoll.

838
01:10:51,505 --> 01:10:56,635
Um, we're not going to call toxic masculinity if someone breaks into our house and you want to defend you.

839
01:10:57,325 --> 01:10:59,214
So again, you can hear the defense of this.

840
01:10:59,355 --> 01:11:03,605
I'm allowed to be a toxic kind of man because one day you might need me to defend you.

841
01:11:03,605 --> 01:11:04,244
That's tight.

842
01:11:04,735 --> 01:11:07,845
Uh, if you're over 15 and like cartoons, you are a loser.

843
01:11:08,125 --> 01:11:12,095
I like cartoons, uh, anime, Dragon Ball Z, which is huge in our house.

844
01:11:12,500 --> 01:11:17,590
Uh, no excuse, plus any woman loses respect for you grow up, uh, that is taped.

845
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:26,410
Um, but it's the, it's the D one, the sort of chick fights, uh, one, um, which is where, uh, maybe I'm about to lose the

846
01:11:26,410 --> 01:11:34,960
audience here, but I think I am significantly chick fights, um, in that, um, I, um, I grew up in a single parent home.

847
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:36,640
As I said, my dad died when I was young.

848
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,700
Uh, I grew up with, with the assumptions that.

849
01:11:39,950 --> 01:11:41,520
That, that my home was normal.

850
01:11:41,530 --> 01:11:42,120
We all do.

851
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:48,989
I got married to, uh, Claire who comes from a highly gendered home, non christian home, but highly, highly gendered home.

852
01:11:48,989 --> 01:11:50,940
There were men things to do and women things to do.

853
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:57,949
And all of our marriage, we've had this negotiation where she will just wait for me to do the man things and I'll be totally oblivious.

854
01:11:58,675 --> 01:11:59,725
that I'm supposed to do them.

855
01:11:59,745 --> 01:12:02,445
And, um, my father in law has two sons in law.

856
01:12:02,775 --> 01:12:04,765
Uh, one of them is me, chickified me.

857
01:12:04,765 --> 01:12:05,535
I'm a vicar.

858
01:12:05,915 --> 01:12:09,315
Um, and the other one owns his own garage and repairs cars for a living.

859
01:12:09,335 --> 01:12:13,084
So it's just a nightmare whenever we, um, whenever we get together.

860
01:12:13,474 --> 01:12:21,910
Um, And I feel that maybe Australia is more, uh, gender stereotypes, even than England is.

861
01:12:22,330 --> 01:12:26,960
Um, and it just works out everywhere that it works out in dating.

862
01:12:27,380 --> 01:12:31,189
Uh, I have regular conversations now with dating couples who.

863
01:12:31,575 --> 01:12:37,055
where the man is insisting they apply Ephesians 5, uh, within the marriage, within the dating relationship

864
01:12:37,065 --> 01:12:43,674
before they're married, even applying it to his right to demand sin from her, uh, because she should submit.

865
01:12:43,935 --> 01:12:49,395
Uh, I think more normally though, um, there is a huge pressure on men and women to live out

866
01:12:49,404 --> 01:12:54,845
the stereotypes, um, which is quite hard because they're massively contradictory and difficult.

867
01:12:55,225 --> 01:12:59,730
Um, do you have the thing where, um, men are always quieter in prayer groups than women.

868
01:13:00,310 --> 01:13:04,970
Um, and, and that it's the sort of, you know, men don't want to talk over women because that's toxic, but actually,

869
01:13:05,020 --> 01:13:09,070
uh, also we're a bit shy and we don't want to get it wrong, but also we're waiting for the one to pray first, but

870
01:13:09,070 --> 01:13:13,440
she's waiting for us to pray first because the Bible says, and you just have this swirling kind of nightmare thing.

871
01:13:13,740 --> 01:13:17,550
Um, Claire's school was preparing every woman in the school to be prime minister.

872
01:13:17,710 --> 01:13:22,770
It was when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, but you've also got to be beautiful and you've never got to be angry.

873
01:13:22,900 --> 01:13:24,730
And your resting face must be peaceful.

874
01:13:24,940 --> 01:13:27,850
And you've got to have children and you've got to do, and it's just.

875
01:13:28,260 --> 01:13:33,040
But none of these stereotypes, Jesus, as far as I'm aware, did not play sports, not even once.

876
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:37,080
Uh, somebody's looking, but I'm not, just don't think he did.

877
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:43,260
Um, and, and so for that to be essential to what it is to be a man, um, and,

878
01:13:43,599 --> 01:13:49,050
you know, King David wrote poetry, uh, and other various chickified things.

879
01:13:49,660 --> 01:13:52,630
Um, Treat me the same.

880
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,390
Treat me the same is the next one.

881
01:13:54,750 --> 01:14:03,229
Um, and, um, here I'm thinking particularly within church staff teams, um, and the, the question of

882
01:14:03,229 --> 01:14:07,830
how men and women relate on a church staff team, but I guess it might apply in other areas as well.

883
01:14:07,839 --> 01:14:11,179
My, um, my wife has run a couple of support groups in her time.

884
01:14:11,179 --> 01:14:13,150
This is not noble charity work that she does.

885
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:16,220
She, um, Tries to help people work with me.

886
01:14:16,510 --> 01:14:19,680
Um, the support groups entirely focused on people have to work with me.

887
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:24,730
One was, um, for those who, who do admin for me, um, she did nine months of doing some admin

888
01:14:24,740 --> 01:14:29,179
for a kid's camp with me and realized everyone who ever works with me like that needs help.

889
01:14:29,500 --> 01:14:34,810
Um, but then there was another support group and by support group, I just mean she occasionally chats to them.

890
01:14:35,230 --> 01:14:40,760
Um, she says to them, be careful because Charlie doesn't treat women differently from men.

891
01:14:42,860 --> 01:14:43,540
Now, what do you think?

892
01:14:43,550 --> 01:14:47,970
Is it a good thing or a bad thing that I don't treat women differently?

893
01:14:47,980 --> 01:14:54,540
Again, I'm not saying that is actually true, uh, but that is, that is my wife's view from having picked up talking to other people.

894
01:14:54,560 --> 01:15:01,830
Um, one of my job references actually for all souls, uh, from a senior businesswoman in the city, uh, wrote that in

895
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:07,730
church environment, she felt she was treated with more respect, given more power, uh, than she is in her city job.

896
01:15:08,570 --> 01:15:14,000
Um, and she was writing for a panel that she knew would be a bit nervous of this complementarian applying for the job.

897
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:15,510
Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

898
01:15:16,030 --> 01:15:17,699
Um, I'm not saying I've got the answer to that.

899
01:15:17,699 --> 01:15:22,460
We, um, we did, uh, diversity training in our staff team last week.

900
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:30,280
And one of the core messages was it's about making the appropriate allowances so that everybody stands in the same place.

901
01:15:30,895 --> 01:15:32,985
It's not actually about treating everyone the same.

902
01:15:32,985 --> 01:15:34,915
So, um, just turn to your neighbor.

903
01:15:35,405 --> 01:15:39,495
Have you found anything difficult about working in mixed sex teams?

904
01:15:40,905 --> 01:15:41,875
Does that make sense of the question?

905
01:15:41,955 --> 01:15:42,755
You may want to say no.

906
01:15:43,025 --> 01:15:46,825
Have you found anything difficult about working in mixed sex teams in the workplace?

907
01:15:48,745 --> 01:15:51,465
Okay, let me interrupt again there.

908
01:15:51,465 --> 01:15:52,794
Let me give you a few things,

909
01:15:55,365 --> 01:15:59,814
a few things that I've either found difficult or found helpful.

910
01:16:00,214 --> 01:16:11,065
Um, I think relating to the spouse is interesting and is actually gendered, or at least is gendered at this point in history.

911
01:16:11,495 --> 01:16:18,955
So the, um, the female member of staff who is placed in a situation of conflict with

912
01:16:18,955 --> 01:16:23,355
a man in the course of her ministry and the effect that has on her husband at home.

913
01:16:24,535 --> 01:16:32,725
Uh, and his sense that he wants to leap in, uh, and either tell me to sort it out or to sort it out himself.

914
01:16:33,095 --> 01:16:38,525
Uh, and the, the question of whether I am willing to have that conversation with

915
01:16:38,525 --> 01:16:43,415
him or not, or whether I tell him to back off and that I will talk to my employee.

916
01:16:43,570 --> 01:16:46,300
Uh, about this because she works for me and you don't.

917
01:16:46,710 --> 01:16:50,820
Again, all of those, uh, again, I think we've been quite used to the fact that

918
01:16:50,830 --> 01:16:55,830
it's hard for a wife to see her husband, the vicar, criticized and all of that.

919
01:16:55,860 --> 01:17:00,290
But actually, the more that churches employ more and more women in senior

920
01:17:00,290 --> 01:17:03,740
ministry roles, Uh, the more that we'll get that dynamic the other way around.

921
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,650
And I think it's gendered and needs thoughts.

922
01:17:06,030 --> 01:17:08,160
Um, there is the, the Billy Graham rule.

923
01:17:08,170 --> 01:17:09,190
Do you know what I mean by that?

924
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:10,333
In, uh, over here.

925
01:17:10,333 --> 01:17:14,330
So Billy Graham would never be in a car or in a room on his own with a woman.

926
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:25,965
Um, and, uh, Yet, uh, some of those rooms are about the opportunity to develop in your career and the opportunity to be listened to and the opposite.

927
01:17:25,975 --> 01:17:27,635
So it's how you work out.

928
01:17:27,645 --> 01:17:31,045
So again, I'm sure, uh, you'll have your ways here.

929
01:17:31,045 --> 01:17:36,465
We have, you know, huge windows and all our offices so that, uh, people can.

930
01:17:37,155 --> 01:17:39,245
Come for supervision and line management.

931
01:17:39,705 --> 01:17:42,555
Uh, we would recommend not doing that in a home.

932
01:17:42,595 --> 01:17:47,355
My home is so not like a home that I do actually do it in my home on the floor of my home.

933
01:17:47,355 --> 01:17:49,855
That is not at all my home, but, um, but it, it.

934
01:17:50,625 --> 01:17:56,475
And I think there is something as well about being crystal clear in a complementarian

935
01:17:56,475 --> 01:18:01,024
church about the nature of the opportunities that will and won't be available to women.

936
01:18:02,304 --> 01:18:08,014
So, will they have the same opportunities of access to the senior pastor?

937
01:18:08,865 --> 01:18:10,835
Will they have the same training opportunities?

938
01:18:10,875 --> 01:18:12,195
Will they have the same development opportunities?

939
01:18:14,085 --> 01:18:22,005
And again, I think if you have a theological reason why some areas are not available, then you ought not to

940
01:18:22,005 --> 01:18:28,335
be ashamed of that or to hide it, particularly when people are making decisions about where they will work.

941
01:18:29,264 --> 01:18:38,595
Um, I think there's something about the more discouraging nature Of some of the roles that we typically ask women to fulfill.

942
01:18:39,145 --> 01:18:46,495
So the first time I was given any team leadership was a long time ago, and I, uh, line managed the very few people on my team in

943
01:18:46,495 --> 01:18:53,145
the kind of way I like to be line managed, which was basically not at all, uh, and sort of left the person alone to get on with it.

944
01:18:53,475 --> 01:18:58,965
Um, and it took me a while to work out that that was a very different experience for the female members of the

945
01:18:58,965 --> 01:19:05,135
team than it was for the male ones because the men were giving lots of talks, uh, and were getting the kind of.

946
01:19:05,620 --> 01:19:07,360
brutal affirmation that you get from talks.

947
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:11,280
You know, the people saying, thank you, or I hated it, or, but they were being noticed.

948
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:15,880
Whereas, uh, the kind of role we were asking the women to do was lots and lots of discipleship

949
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:21,529
and one to one work and pastoral work, where actually nobody was seeing them doing it.

950
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:25,660
And if we didn't do line management and I didn't say, how's it going?

951
01:19:25,660 --> 01:19:26,800
And oh, that sounds brilliant.

952
01:19:26,810 --> 01:19:27,520
Well done.

953
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,320
They were not getting that from anywhere else.

954
01:19:31,050 --> 01:19:39,390
Um, Some of the women I've worked with have pointed out to me that their ministry is a lot more repetitive than my ministry.

955
01:19:39,420 --> 01:19:46,060
So because I'm a sort of frontline preacher, I'm working through new material and new books, whereas particularly

956
01:19:46,060 --> 01:19:50,510
when I was a student worker, my female colleagues would be, it's Colossians again, because it's September.

957
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:56,270
Uh, and then it'll be, you know, and, and, and actually finding ways of encouraging.

958
01:19:56,690 --> 01:20:03,350
women to be theologically stretching themselves, working on new material, finding I found we had to pay attention to that.

959
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:07,020
Um, maybe you don't have this problem over here.

960
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:16,580
Um, certainly Moore College has been a real inspiration to us for, um, proper theological training for women alongside men.

961
01:20:17,150 --> 01:20:20,450
Uh, though then someone told me the Australian government pays for it all.

962
01:20:20,460 --> 01:20:22,150
So, you know, you're just doing it for free.

963
01:20:22,510 --> 01:20:27,100
Uh, so I'm now less impressed, but, um, But, um, so I think we have a problem with

964
01:20:27,110 --> 01:20:34,780
training, um, because in our denomination, uh, training for vicars is free, roughly.

965
01:20:35,019 --> 01:20:40,450
Uh, but if you only think that men can be vicars, uh, then you need to pay attention

966
01:20:40,450 --> 01:20:44,770
to how the women will be trained, unless you think women don't need to be trained.

967
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:49,860
Um, but there's also a question about what in any other profession you would call career development.

968
01:20:49,870 --> 01:20:55,165
It's again, I think we have, become much more used to employing younger women.

969
01:20:56,085 --> 01:21:00,755
Uh, but there's this sort of, what, why are you still in church work?

970
01:21:00,785 --> 01:21:07,685
Well, sorry, you, are you, as if getting married, having babies was this kind of thing that, that would happen when you were 30.

971
01:21:08,124 --> 01:21:11,365
Um, and You don't want to be a youth worker anymore.

972
01:21:11,395 --> 01:21:12,955
Well, what, what do you do now?

973
01:21:13,445 --> 01:21:19,445
Whereas I don't think that is responsible, particularly if I've encouraged someone to give up their job to come and work for me in the church.

974
01:21:19,475 --> 01:21:24,035
If I actually mean work for me for five years until you are unemployable anywhere else.

975
01:21:24,415 --> 01:21:31,885
Um, I don't think that actually is paying enough attention to, uh, what it is to be a man and a woman in the workforce of a church.

976
01:21:32,465 --> 01:21:38,345
Um, and then this one has struck me more and more now that I am more often chairing the meetings.

977
01:21:38,835 --> 01:21:40,065
Um, but the.

978
01:21:41,175 --> 01:21:50,515
And again, it may be specific to some contexts, but the, the extent to which men will talk over women, uh, and, uh, the, the

979
01:21:50,525 --> 01:21:57,324
most egregious example, I'm not going to say where it was or how, but we were talking about the fact that women's voices are

980
01:21:57,325 --> 01:22:06,595
often silenced, uh, and a woman was speaking about that, uh, when, and just to prove it's not theological, uh, a man who,

981
01:22:06,695 --> 01:22:15,205
uh, is very solidly egalitarian, um, Utterly spoke over her, prevented her from speaking and took over the conversation.

982
01:22:15,535 --> 01:22:18,165
Um, and again, that there are things you can do.

983
01:22:18,175 --> 01:22:22,125
So I've been taught that the first voice that speaks is very important.

984
01:22:22,134 --> 01:22:27,505
So if you're chairing who you call, that there's statistically, if the first voice you call is female, then

985
01:22:27,514 --> 01:22:31,834
you're much more likely to get an even balance between men and women in what follows in the discussion.

986
01:22:32,275 --> 01:22:36,955
If the first voice you call on is male, then you're much more likely to have a strong imbalance.

987
01:22:37,895 --> 01:22:47,930
Um, and then we have noticed that, uh, We have lots of part time staff on our church, but they are disproportionately female.

988
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:53,880
Women are much more likely to job share, women are much more likely, obviously, to go on maternity

989
01:22:53,880 --> 01:23:00,809
leave, and all of those things are points of difficult, known points of difficulty in a workforce.

990
01:23:01,140 --> 01:23:05,960
To be part time, to be job sharing, to go off and leave and try and come back to your job, and

991
01:23:06,260 --> 01:23:11,390
yet if we don't pay deliberate attention to how that would work, there's going to be trouble.

992
01:23:11,670 --> 01:23:16,350
And then also coming out of 1 Corinthians 11, um, is it?

993
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:24,210
So the Louise Perry book is, you don't need to have sex like a man, which I think that's very helpful.

994
01:23:24,230 --> 01:23:26,960
Do we also agree you don't have to do ministry like a man?

995
01:23:27,870 --> 01:23:31,690
You don't have to lead like a man, you don't have to preach like a man, and then what does that mean?

996
01:23:32,510 --> 01:23:34,550
Okay, well, we're nearly heading towards question time.

997
01:23:34,580 --> 01:23:37,965
I'm going to, I'm going to, rattle through, uh, the others.

998
01:23:38,015 --> 01:23:44,845
Um, you don't look like a minority, uh, is just a chance to tell you about my current most senior role in the Church of England.

999
01:23:44,845 --> 01:23:50,375
So I'm hoping you'll be impressed by this, uh, which is that I am a member of the House of Bishops Standing

1000
01:23:50,375 --> 01:23:54,474
Commission on the House of Bishops Declaration on the Ministry of Bishops and Priests and the Five Guiding Principles.

1001
01:23:55,755 --> 01:24:02,125
Um, which is, um, which is to say, we have this settlement on how complementarians and

1002
01:24:02,125 --> 01:24:06,795
traditional Catholics will be allowed to exist and flourish within the Church of England.

1003
01:24:07,195 --> 01:24:11,785
Um, and, uh, and it is really, really difficult.

1004
01:24:11,835 --> 01:24:17,180
The first three meetings that I attended, um, were in fact entirely about whether I would

1005
01:24:17,190 --> 01:24:22,200
be allowed to be there next time, uh, because, um, uh, which was a weird experience.

1006
01:24:22,210 --> 01:24:24,830
I was appointed because we didn't have a bishop at the time.

1007
01:24:25,189 --> 01:24:26,630
Uh, there was no complimentary bishop.

1008
01:24:26,630 --> 01:24:30,130
I was appointed to represent the fictional future bishop that there would be.

1009
01:24:30,410 --> 01:24:34,760
And when the names were issued, uh, having carefully tried to balance who was on it, uh,

1010
01:24:35,490 --> 01:24:39,890
and we were allowed 30 percent cause that's the kind of minority position we are roughly.

1011
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:47,530
Um, and they noticed that not one, uh, parish clergy person of either minority view

1012
01:24:47,550 --> 01:24:50,850
was on this panel apart from me and I was leaving as soon as the bishop arrived.

1013
01:24:51,030 --> 01:24:54,290
So there was a kind of uproar and we then had this discussion of whether I, whether

1014
01:24:54,330 --> 01:24:58,420
they needed complementarian clergy and traditional Catholic clergy in the room.

1015
01:24:58,819 --> 01:25:03,900
And what was fascinating to me was everybody in that room was an expert on minorities.

1016
01:25:05,250 --> 01:25:11,500
In fact, some of them have been chosen because of that expertise in disability, in ethnicity and in gender.

1017
01:25:11,860 --> 01:25:19,450
And they knew exactly how to challenge discrimination and fight against it, but this didn't look like a minority.

1018
01:25:20,389 --> 01:25:25,169
They were in fact entirely incapable of relating to me as a minority.

1019
01:25:25,699 --> 01:25:29,489
Um, and the campaign website I showed you is an example of that.

1020
01:25:29,499 --> 01:25:32,099
But, um, what I.

1021
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:35,240
I want to bring you as practical and I hope helpful.

1022
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:41,700
One of the things we've done as a commission is we came to investigate London and see

1023
01:25:41,700 --> 01:25:47,720
what London Diocese does for the relationships between the minorities and the rest.

1024
01:25:48,010 --> 01:25:57,720
And the thing London has that no other diocese has is a plan in that just it's written down what I can expect as a complementarian,

1025
01:25:57,730 --> 01:26:04,809
how I can expect to be treated, whether or not my ordination candidates will be seen by a complementarian bishop or not.

1026
01:26:05,570 --> 01:26:09,549
And, and the, so far we've been going for three years and this is our only

1027
01:26:09,549 --> 01:26:14,840
concrete finding, is that in general it's good to write down what your plan is.

1028
01:26:15,330 --> 01:26:24,480
Um, and again, in our churches, um, What would it look like if you codified how men and women could expect to be treated on

1029
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:32,199
your staff team, in your ministry team, in terms of pay, in terms of access to training, in terms of access to sabbaticals?

1030
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:35,029
Maybe you do this already, but would that be helpful?

1031
01:26:36,210 --> 01:26:38,830
Okay, I'm going to just rattle through the rest of them and go for questions.

1032
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:42,690
So in our context, this has become a proxy for other battles.

1033
01:26:42,700 --> 01:26:48,929
So we're really arguing about sexuality or arguing about whether or not it is good for

1034
01:26:48,940 --> 01:26:53,159
minority groups to have their own bishops because that might be relevant for sexuality.

1035
01:26:53,159 --> 01:26:55,200
So, so content terrorism gets dragged in there.

1036
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:03,810
always, uh, we are discussing this on a cultural slope, which is going in one direction.

1037
01:27:03,820 --> 01:27:08,180
So I, um, I was involved in the interview panel that appointed Bishop Sarah.

1038
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:13,309
Um, and so I knew that London had a female bishop while the newspapers were still

1039
01:27:13,319 --> 01:27:18,139
confidently publishing stories with headlines like, no way it'll be a woman for London.

1040
01:27:18,509 --> 01:27:24,380
Um, and so in preparing my very mixed parish, uh, where I was Vicar one day a week, um, we

1041
01:27:24,380 --> 01:27:28,955
got ready to pass a resolution before I could Tell them we've got, so got, I got prepared.

1042
01:27:29,315 --> 01:27:36,265
Um, and then that went down astonishingly badly with the wider community that related to that parish.

1043
01:27:36,325 --> 01:27:39,715
Uh, and in particular with some of the sort of senior organizations that related,

1044
01:27:39,715 --> 01:27:43,645
no summoned in, uh, to speak to members of Parliament and all sorts of things.

1045
01:27:43,645 --> 01:27:44,755
'cause it was that kind of parish.

1046
01:27:45,025 --> 01:27:52,995
But in particular, someone who was a senior academic, uh, in a university summoned me and said, why have you lot, we dealt with this.

1047
01:27:53,205 --> 01:27:55,105
decades ago, 50 years ago.

1048
01:27:55,795 --> 01:27:57,525
Why have you lot not got there yet?

1049
01:27:58,945 --> 01:28:02,735
Again, you hear that, um, that the problem is you're still here.

1050
01:28:02,745 --> 01:28:07,544
And actually it was quite fun because my archdeacon is a traditional Catholic and they love him.

1051
01:28:08,285 --> 01:28:10,524
Uh, and he was really helpful because he would put out to them.

1052
01:28:10,525 --> 01:28:14,434
You, you, you, you love a traditional Catholic because they look kind of.

1053
01:28:14,740 --> 01:28:17,560
weird and eccentric and old and lovable.

1054
01:28:18,110 --> 01:28:23,850
Whereas again, this looks, um, or did then anyway, sort of younger and growing and looks like

1055
01:28:23,850 --> 01:28:27,600
I've, you know, I've done this cause I believe it, not just cause I'm eccentric and weird.

1056
01:28:28,169 --> 01:28:34,970
Um, and also I don't look quite as much when my churches don't look quite as much like I'm going to do the decent thing and die and go away.

1057
01:28:35,635 --> 01:28:44,105
Uh, and so on the cultural slope that everybody believes is only going in one direction, you're therefore having a much more painful conversation.

1058
01:28:44,865 --> 01:28:54,815
And the next one I've said, but submission is the gospel, uh, submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ, uh, giving up my freedom, uh, as he did submit

1059
01:28:54,815 --> 01:29:03,115
to his father in Philippians two and was commended for it, glorified for it, uh, that actually we hate submission because we hate the gospel.

1060
01:29:03,780 --> 01:29:08,360
Um, culture wars are annoying, by which I mean this is a conversation that's almost impossible to have

1061
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:14,660
in a rational way, because everybody has written 10, 000 words on everything that you're talking about.

1062
01:29:15,129 --> 01:29:21,920
And then finally, just to come back to what we've said already, um, the, Curse and its

1063
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:28,370
effects and the mistreatment of women is real and is going on in our congregations.

1064
01:29:28,380 --> 01:29:31,310
So here was a question from the same question time last Sunday.

1065
01:29:31,850 --> 01:29:38,910
As a woman, I am just an object to men and I'm just here for them, and this passage confirms it.

1066
01:29:39,550 --> 01:29:41,294
I can't cope with that.

1067
01:29:42,805 --> 01:29:52,784
And I think modern dating has just made that worse because you are swiping through a series of objects that you're rejecting as you go.

1068
01:29:53,655 --> 01:30:00,825
You are typically making huge decisions about committing your life to someone before you really know them at all.

1069
01:30:01,345 --> 01:30:11,310
Uh, in particular before she has had a chance to know your friends and your parents and something about how you relate and how safe you are.

1070
01:30:11,660 --> 01:30:18,120
Um, and, uh, the Church of England has been slow on this, but is now taking domestic abuse seriously.

1071
01:30:18,700 --> 01:30:26,350
Um, and, uh, the statistics are terrifying on the numbers of cases of that there will be in all of our churches.

1072
01:30:26,860 --> 01:30:30,080
Um, and I think complementarism is good.

1073
01:30:30,875 --> 01:30:39,245
But also, I have sat with any number of women and had to explain that complementarianism is not an excuse for what is being done to them.

1074
01:30:39,515 --> 01:30:41,385
They are misapplying that chapter.

1075
01:30:41,744 --> 01:30:43,795
That does not give them the right to do that.

1076
01:30:44,385 --> 01:30:47,175
Um, so again, just to say, this is good.

1077
01:30:47,205 --> 01:30:48,205
We need to talk about it.

1078
01:30:48,224 --> 01:30:53,165
And actually it's better, uh, better to teach what the Bible really does say, uh, than

1079
01:30:53,175 --> 01:30:58,634
to leave boyfriend and girlfriend to guess and make it up and misapply the verses.

1080
01:31:05,415 --> 01:31:07,195
Thank you for listening to Moore In The Word,

1081
01:31:07,590 --> 01:31:10,150
a podcast of Moore Theological College.

1082
01:31:10,570 --> 01:31:15,270
Our vision as a College is to see God glorified by men and women, living for

1083
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:20,350
and proclaiming Jesus Christ, growing healthy churches, and reaching the lost.

1084
01:31:20,559 --> 01:31:25,409
We invite you to attend any of our upcoming events, including this one from the Priscilla & Aquila Centre.

1085
01:31:25,895 --> 01:31:33,605
The Priscilla & Aquila Centre is a Centre of Moore Theological College that aims to encourage the ministries of women in partnership with men.

1086
01:31:34,535 --> 01:31:39,604
Every year, the Centre holds a conference to encourage women in ministry and to assist ministry

1087
01:31:39,605 --> 01:31:45,359
teams to think more creatively about how men and women can work better together in ministry.

1088
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:51,060
In 2025, the Centre's annual conference will be held on Monday, the 3rd of February.

1089
01:31:51,770 --> 01:31:58,720
Paul Grimmond, Dean of Students at Moore Theological College, will be speaking on the topic of Is Godliness Complementarian?

1090
01:31:58,900 --> 01:31:59,709
and Titus 2.

1091
01:32:00,550 --> 01:32:08,360
And author Claire Smith will be speaking about her new book, "The Appearing of God Our Savior, a theology of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus",

1092
01:32:08,910 --> 01:32:12,210
which will be published by Crossway in February, 2025.

1093
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:21,440
To find out more and to register, visit the Priscilla & Aquila Centre website, paa.moore.edu.au.

1094
01:32:21,950 --> 01:32:25,370
That's paa.moore.edu.au.

1095
01:32:31,230 --> 01:32:36,600
You can find out more and register for any of our events by visiting the Moore College website.

1096
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:41,780
That's moore.edu.au.

1097
01:32:42,620 --> 01:32:48,389
If you have not already done so, we encourage you to subscribe to our podcast through your favorite podcast platform

1098
01:32:48,905 --> 01:32:50,565
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1099
01:32:51,325 --> 01:32:55,715
For past episodes, further resources, and to make a tax deductible donation to

1100
01:32:55,715 --> 01:33:00,644
support the work of the College and its mission, please visit our website at moore.

1101
01:33:01,135 --> 01:33:01,725
edu.

1102
01:33:02,115 --> 01:33:02,125
au.

1103
01:33:03,185 --> 01:33:08,915
If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a friend and leave a review on your platform of choice.

1104
01:33:09,745 --> 01:33:18,844
We always benefit from feedback from our listeners, so if you'd like to get in touch, you can email us at comms@moore.

1105
01:33:19,124 --> 01:33:19,634
edu.

1106
01:33:19,645 --> 01:33:19,655
au.

1107
01:33:21,515 --> 01:33:29,925
The Moore in the Word podcast was edited and produced by me, Karen Beilharz, and the Communications Team at Moore Theological College.

1108
01:33:30,385 --> 01:33:34,375
The music for our podcast was provided by MarkJuly from Pixabay.

1109
01:33:34,985 --> 01:33:35,775
Until next time.