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Hello listeners, this is Valeria Rusnak and I

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welcome you all to the 11th episode of the Rejected

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Pre -Med Podcast. I often start episodes by saying

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that rejection is often redirection and it is

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not innately negative. In fact, it can lead us

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to personal and professional growth and it should

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be viewed as an opportunity. In today's episode,

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we have a very special guest, Dr. Michael Unger.

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Dr. Michael Unger is the founder and director

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of the Resilience Research Centre at Dalhousie

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University, where he holds the Canada Research

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Chair in Child, Family and Community Resilience.

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In 2022, Dr. Unger was ranked the number one

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social work scholar in the world in recognition

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of his groundbreaking work as a family therapist

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and resilience researcher. His work has transformed

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the global understanding of human adaptation

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in stressful environments and organizational

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processes with a particular focus on the resilience

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of marginalized children and families, as well

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as adult populations facing mental health challenges

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at home and in the workplace. Dr. Unger regularly

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consults with international NGOs like the Red

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Cross and Save the Children, government agencies

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in over a dozen countries, and educational institutions

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at all levels. He has authored over 250 peer

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-reviewed articles, book chapters, and 17 books.

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His blog, Nurturing Resilience, can be found

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on Psychology Today's website. There's so much

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more I could say about Dr. Unger's incredible

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accomplishments, but in the interest of time,

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I will just leave it right here. So thank you

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so much, Michael, for taking the time to join

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us on the podcast. I'm proud to have you here,

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and I'm excited to dive into your insights on...

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rejections and resilience. I know our listeners

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will gain a lot from your perspective and expertise.

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So first, can you please share with me, how do

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you feel about doing today's episode? So when

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someone invites you onto a podcast in which you're

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going to talk about rejection and failure and

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disasters in your life, I mean, that's just like

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an uplifting day, I guess, I don't know. It's

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a funny, it's a funny way of segueing into a

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conversation. Yeah, resilience. And, um, it's

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a, it's kind of a great hook because I kind of,

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when you approached me about this, I thought,

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yeah, that's, that's such a common experience

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and one that we hide from. And you really don't

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understand that we are more resilient because

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of that four letter F word fail. Um, you know,

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if we try to embrace and use that as part of

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the learning, the learning and growth cycle.

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Yeah. Yeah, definitely for sure. And before we,

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Dive into more your expertise on resilience.

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I do want to ask how you even got to be doing

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what you're doing today. Tell us briefly about

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your background. How are you led to become a

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family therapist and a social scientist specializing

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in resilience? How does that come to be? Oh boy

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i'm like many folks that you know the seven career

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principle i think i was moving more into journalism

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and international development work and child

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and youth work and bit by bit became a clinician

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therapist and certified over really decades of

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my. in my twenties and my thirties. And then,

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um, kind of reluctantly became a university professor

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when I realized I was doing some teaching and

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clinical work and research already in my position.

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I was working with, uh, juvenile delinquents

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and, uh, custody facilities. And, you know, it's

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funny how life just kind of propels you forward,

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but I think my interest in resilience really

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came out of this, um, partially my clinical work

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that I was encountering young people who were

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doing better than I would have expected given

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their past traumas and everything else. But I

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think maybe I was just sensitive to reading those

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situations based a little bit on my own personal

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experience, something I've written a little bit

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about in I Still Love You, which is one of the

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books I put out. And basically, I emancipated

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my family very young, about 16 years old, and

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left. And I was one of those, in a way, very

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fortunate. I was able to put myself into university

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setting universities and cost very much um and

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um i was able to you know sort of get myself.

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Into a really good space but i worked a lot of

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hours i was often working twenty twenty five

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hours a week while i was going through university

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but all of that together i think maybe a little

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bit sensitive to the idea that you know things

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might look very difficult but there are. there

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are ways that many people survive and even sometimes

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thrive out of those circumstances. And that got

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me sort of curious about why I was seeing that

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same pattern in many of the young people with

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whom I was working clinically, who are coming

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out of environments far more damaging, far more

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dangerous, far more risky, far more traumatizing

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than my own. And that's kind of where this all

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started from. Yeah, no, it's interesting how

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something that started off in your childhood

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led you kind of by a current in a way of what

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you're doing right now. a lot of the things like

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my passion for this work stems from the experiences

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I went through and helping me in a way figure

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out certain things. And even me starting this

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podcast, I'm not saying this is directly related

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or similar to your experience, but even when

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I started this podcast about rejections and resilience,

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I first tried to help myself figure out how do

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I overcome this rejection that I've experienced

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for medical school and how do I build resilience.

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So that's kind of how it started. in a way I

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find that it's interesting how people are led

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into this kind of work. So thanks for sharing

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that. You're welcome. And what intrigued me a

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little bit looking, you know, when I was reflecting

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back, I realized that, you know, I hadn't really

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done it alone, even though it felt like maybe

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at the time, like I was, but there was, there

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was certainly, you know, a grade 10 teacher that

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inspired me that, you know, really helped me

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to get through a tough time and really inspired

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me that he saw great potential and what I could

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do and in fact very memorably and probably in

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the theme of here I had just recently arrived

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at that high school and I remember I wrote my

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very first essay for him and he was quite an

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inspirational character. He ran the school play

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and he did all kinds of other stuff. He's very

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engaged with the students. Wonderful fellow.

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Steve Weinberg is his name. I remember I wrote

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this wonderful paper for some assignment and

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he gave me an A on it. And then he kind of leans

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over my desk when he gave me back the paper and

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he just said, you know, I just want to let you

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know, that's the last A you're going to get in

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my class. And I was like shocked. I said, and

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then what an absolute compliment. He said, you

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know, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not grading

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you this. I don't mean this boastfully. Please

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don't take that this way, but it was just the

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theme of somebody seeing me and seeing that I

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had some potential, more potential maybe than

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I was hearing in other parts of my life. And

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this fellow basically leaned over and said, look,

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I'm not going to grade you the same way as any

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of the other students because I know that you

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can do exceptionally much better. And again,

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not boastfully, but just that when someone sees

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you, whether it's because you're a great skier

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or a jokester or you're really good at cooking

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or something about you that shines through and

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the world notices it, that's something that you

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can really Velcro yourself to for a lot of years.

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I mean, that's just that idea that, okay, someone's

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believing in me. And so he's saying, giving you

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another A here because I think he eventually

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gave me an A. I think eventually he... He deserved

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it probably. Ah, whatever. That sense of that,

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you know, I'm expecting you to step up. And isn't

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that a wonderful gift to give? What a wonderful

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thing to give anyone for what they're showing

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the world at a particular moment of potential

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vulnerability in that point in time. It was a

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little bit pretty chaotic in my life. You never

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know how someone's words can impact like even

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similar to your story. I still have my great

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12 year book and sometimes like when nostalgia

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hits, I look back at it and I think a lot of

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those words that teachers have said to me have

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stayed in my head like since then and it's been

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what like. in almost 10 years. And I think it

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will stay because it's very important to have

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people in your life who will support you and

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who will mentor you and who will guide you without

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probably them even knowing about it, but just

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people who there support you and help you be

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on the path that will make you happy and peace

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and bring you fulfillment too. So that's wonderful.

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That's great that you had a teacher like that.

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What subject was the teacher teaching? It was

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English, English, I guess, in grade 10 at a high

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school in Montreal. And yeah, yeah, later on,

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I went into, you know, do some theater. He was

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the director of the school play and stayed in

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touch for many, many years after I graduated

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high school through my university years. And

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he was always sort of a little bit of a touchstone,

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not just for me, but for quite a few other other

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young people. And, you know, in a really, in

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a really nice, safe way of, you know, inspiring

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the best in, uh, I think he, you know, he had

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a real, uh, knack for seeing young people that

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might just need that extra push or that extra

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little bit of support that might be floundering

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a little bit. So yeah. Nice. When you have those

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kinds of people in your life. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

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I had a chemistry AP teacher who, uh, scared

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the crap out of me for the first month I had

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him as a teacher. But then he became one of those

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figures for me as well. So yeah, I just I resonate

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with what you say a lot. Yeah. This kind of ties

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into the actually the next question I was going

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to ask you. In your work, you emphasize that

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resilience is not just about an individual's

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mindset, but it's deeply tied to the environment

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and possibly the people or the systems that surround

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you or the systems you're in. Can you explain

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what what you mean by that and how would you

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define resilience in a broader sense? I know

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it's a loaded question so start where you like.

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It's been an interesting journey understanding

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this concept of resilience because of course

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I like all of us we started back in the late

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80s or early 90s reading developmental psychologists

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like Michael Rudder, Norman Garmese, who had

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really talked about resilience as As a process,

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but still focus on the individual, it really

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started from a more individual psychological

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perspective. And then of course there was, you

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know, potentially family, maybe school that would

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somehow influence, but it was still largely about

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attributions and locus of control and internal,

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internal cognitive processes. And I'm a little

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bit more of a social scientist than a psychological

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scientists. And so as i was reading that literature

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i kept sort of bumping into that question about

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what about the environment what about the context

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what about other factors and so as i was doing

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my own doctoral work i began to sort of ponder

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those questions a field of resilience was very

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intriguing felt like a large umbrella under which

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a lot of people doing a lot of different kind

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of thinking were finding themselves. There was

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also, at the same time, other folks doing work

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on community resilience and mental resilience.

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And there's a whole group out of Stockholm that

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was thinking about social ecological resilience,

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et cetera, et cetera. So it was kind of a buzz

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about it. And then about 2002, when I started

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at Dalhousie University in Halifax, I was very

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fortunate to get some seed, some initial research

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funding in which I took an idea of this resilience.

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And I said, I really want to find out If culture

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and context matter because this is where my thinking

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was that somebody to pay more attention that

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just to the primary attachments in a child's

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life but there's gotta be something more about

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your culture in your difference and you gotta

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remember as i mentioned i wanted to be like a

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foreign correspondent a journalist or something

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so i was already in the sort of that social justice.

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The side of things a little bit for many years

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and so what i do is i was able to. talk and build

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a network of folks in like 14 communities, 11

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countries, five continents. And what we did was

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we went and found all the children who were exceptionally

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stressed, like those who were in adverse circumstances,

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whether because of a physical disability in India,

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incredible poverty in South Africa, or maybe,

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you know, working children in Cambodia. We just

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went around the world finding different groups

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of children under stress and then saying, but

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there's a group here that are doing well. Why?

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And obviously we began to ask these kids and

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through a long process of research and whatever,

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there was a story being told about this interaction

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between the environment and the individual. It

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was about social policies and economic conditions.

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meeting positive thinking and you know not catastrophizing

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your thinking and it was like there was this

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kind of ping -pong game going between the individual

00:12:49.250 --> 00:12:51.769
and the environment. Now at that time i didn't

00:12:51.769 --> 00:12:54.730
have it well theorized it was patterns and themes

00:12:54.730 --> 00:12:57.269
that were merging processes that i was seeing

00:12:57.269 --> 00:13:00.429
but more and more they were you know the more

00:13:00.429 --> 00:13:02.690
i studied in the more studies we did collectively

00:13:02.690 --> 00:13:04.909
around the world through with partners the more

00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:10.559
these patterns emerged into. some cohesive models

00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.379
that began to think about the multiple systems

00:13:13.379 --> 00:13:16.559
that the systems around us affect us. And so

00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.580
I boiled it down to a very simple thought when

00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:21.019
I wrote a book called Change Your World, what

00:13:21.019 --> 00:13:23.500
I used eventually settled on was this idea of

00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:26.519
us needing to be rugged, having the rugged individual

00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.179
qualities, mindfulness, self -regulation, problem

00:13:29.179 --> 00:13:31.340
-solving, decision -making, good nutrition, a

00:13:31.340 --> 00:13:33.539
variety of other biological and psychological.

00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.059
And also the environment around us. I really

00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:38.860
think that the reason I was sensitive to that

00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:40.600
was because somewhat it was informed a little

00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.879
bit by my own sort of earlier perspective. That's,

00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:45.740
you know, it's one thing to have a positive attitude.

00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:47.659
It's another thing to have a positive attitude

00:13:47.659 --> 00:13:53.799
and a friend or a mentor or some or job. You

00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:56.080
know, suddenly the story got a lot richer. And

00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:57.899
then these young people all around the world

00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:00.440
were sort of basically telling us that the protective

00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.600
factors that mattered to them weren't just inside

00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.450
of themselves. but were swimming around them

00:14:05.450 --> 00:14:08.929
in the community as well. And that, you know,

00:14:09.049 --> 00:14:11.470
these, when their community valued them. One

00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:13.570
of the better stories I heard was when we were

00:14:13.570 --> 00:14:16.210
doing this research with some children in Ghana,

00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:18.809
and we were asking them, just like we were all

00:14:18.809 --> 00:14:20.909
over the world, saying, well, what is it that

00:14:20.909 --> 00:14:23.830
makes a child resilient, doing better than expected

00:14:23.830 --> 00:14:27.250
here? And what we kept hearing about was children

00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:30.049
said, oh, or adults too said, oh, a child is

00:14:30.049 --> 00:14:32.889
more resilient when they know that they have

00:14:32.889 --> 00:14:35.350
to contribute to their family and look after

00:14:35.350 --> 00:14:37.929
their parents when they're elderly. This idea

00:14:37.929 --> 00:14:40.809
of when the child is seen by their community

00:14:40.809 --> 00:14:43.250
as competent and caring and contributing to the

00:14:43.250 --> 00:14:45.289
welfare of the whole family, that is a sign of

00:14:45.289 --> 00:14:47.490
resilience. That is the quality that is looked

00:14:47.490 --> 00:14:50.169
for in a resilient child. Now, I came back to

00:14:50.169 --> 00:14:52.610
Canada thinking, well, you never hear that definition

00:14:52.610 --> 00:14:54.669
of resilience, right? You never hear, oh, you're

00:14:54.669 --> 00:14:56.289
resilient because you're about to support your

00:14:56.289 --> 00:14:59.549
parents. So I ran that by my own children at

00:14:59.549 --> 00:15:02.100
the time who were, you know, How old would they

00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:05.620
be? 12, 14, whatever. And I ran that by my own

00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:08.399
kids. I said, hey, resilient kids are the ones

00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.399
that support their parents into their old age.

00:15:11.500 --> 00:15:14.720
What do you think about that? And I got the eye

00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.879
roll, like that ain't going to happen, Dad. You

00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:21.799
know? Oh, yeah, the cultural differences. Yeah.

00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.240
I mean, it was kind of funny because, of course,

00:15:24.340 --> 00:15:27.340
there is no explanation in my world that our

00:15:27.340 --> 00:15:29.639
children do that. I mean, that's not a cultural

00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:33.309
norm where I sit. It can be found in Canada,

00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:35.129
but that's not a cultural norm, the space that

00:15:35.129 --> 00:15:38.230
I sit. So it was kind of a funny little episode,

00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:41.690
but it was that teachable moment for me of, right,

00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:43.470
this is not going to be the same everywhere.

00:15:43.549 --> 00:15:45.990
There's going to be a kernel. And the kernel

00:15:45.990 --> 00:15:49.629
of the truth there was a child needs to be valued

00:15:49.629 --> 00:15:53.389
by their community. They need to be seen. Well,

00:15:53.389 --> 00:15:55.750
coming back to my experience with my grade 10

00:15:55.750 --> 00:15:58.090
English teacher, you need to be seen by others

00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:01.220
as competent and a contributing member. And that

00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:04.600
doesn't change across cultures. But what exactly

00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:09.139
contributing means, there's a vast range of definitions

00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:13.820
across many different spaces. So when you say

00:16:13.820 --> 00:16:16.320
the environment impacts our resilience, you mean

00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.460
the fact that we need to be seen as valued and

00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:21.720
competent and something we have something to

00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:24.240
contribute to society. Is there anything else

00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:28.279
to that? Or is that the basic definition that

00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.789
you would give? I would say that that's only

00:16:31.789 --> 00:16:34.590
one part of it actually, that sort of flows.

00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:37.389
But what we see in our environment, our environment

00:16:37.389 --> 00:16:40.149
also makes us feel safe. It makes us feel like

00:16:40.149 --> 00:16:44.330
we belong. It makes us feel like we can derive

00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:48.690
meaning from our activities. It gives us routines

00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:51.669
and out of routine gives us an opportunity to

00:16:51.669 --> 00:16:54.330
feel like the world's predictable. So the environment

00:16:54.330 --> 00:16:57.149
actually plays a number of different functions,

00:16:57.190 --> 00:16:59.990
it prevents a wide array of social connections,

00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:03.570
not just intimacy, but also that we just feel

00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:06.329
connected, whether it's to a bus driver or the

00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:08.630
person who serves us our morning coffee at the

00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:11.690
same coffee shop where we go every morning. There's,

00:17:11.690 --> 00:17:14.910
you know, I think these environments are sort

00:17:14.910 --> 00:17:20.369
of complex nested systems themselves that provide

00:17:20.369 --> 00:17:22.880
us with all kinds of opportunities in you know

00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.660
usually what I say is you know what you select

00:17:25.660 --> 00:17:29.140
is going to be culturally meaningful relevant

00:17:29.140 --> 00:17:32.240
to you and what you need so you know for some

00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:33.799
children that's going to be you know it's great

00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:36.500
that I have access to post -secondary education

00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:38.559
it's going to be my path it's going to be the

00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.900
way I'm going to know myself is valued and for

00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:43.700
other children it's going to be no it's a that

00:17:43.700 --> 00:17:45.500
is not what's going to be valued it's just going

00:17:45.500 --> 00:17:51.259
to be employment in the paying job or you know,

00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.599
whatever the situation is. So I think there's

00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.579
always a, you know, I think of resilience as

00:17:56.579 --> 00:18:00.279
a process of navigation towards resources and

00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.980
negotiation to the resources that you need in

00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:07.200
ways that you experience is meaningful. So I

00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.119
know that sometimes the definition you sometimes

00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:13.440
hear and it's one I really hate and I almost

00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:14.980
hate repeating it, but that's the idea of you

00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:18.079
bouncing back from adversity, but it's kind of

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.500
a repulsive idea. Because if you're bouncing

00:18:20.500 --> 00:18:22.839
back, then you're implying that's all on your

00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.079
individual shoulders. You are responsible for

00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.940
your bounce. The fact that the next person over

00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:32.380
bounces back and they have a trampoline doesn't

00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:35.700
seem to make any difference, right? So generally

00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:38.680
speaking, most scientists in my space are not

00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:40.880
talking about bouncing back anymore. Now we're

00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.900
talking about resources and processes of growth

00:18:43.900 --> 00:18:46.589
and all that kind of stuff because you know there's

00:18:46.589 --> 00:18:49.470
a i will literally sometimes have people in audiences

00:18:49.470 --> 00:18:52.950
that i present to end up and say oh could you

00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:57.250
please stop calling me resilient and i empathize

00:18:57.250 --> 00:19:00.369
because of course to do that means that they

00:19:00.369 --> 00:19:04.490
have to overcome adversity versus if i could

00:19:04.490 --> 00:19:10.789
i could actually think about resilience as you

00:19:10.789 --> 00:19:14.640
know changing the circumstances around them so

00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.599
that they have the opportunities to become their

00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:18.900
best selves. In other words, they don't have

00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:20.460
to change. They don't have to be resilient anymore

00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:23.220
because the world around them is more resilient,

00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:25.500
is providing them for the opportunities they

00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:30.400
need to do well. And story after story, that

00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.460
seems to be what I'm hearing and learning from

00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:37.210
the world around me. And I got a question, and

00:19:37.210 --> 00:19:40.869
it's not in our script or guide, but just something

00:19:40.869 --> 00:19:43.009
that came up. We did talk about how resilience,

00:19:43.309 --> 00:19:45.549
the understanding and definition of resilience

00:19:45.549 --> 00:19:49.470
can vary across cultures, what we mean by contributing

00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:54.269
member to society or community. I wonder, how

00:19:54.269 --> 00:19:57.630
does the fact that now we have the social media

00:19:57.630 --> 00:20:01.990
distractions, how does that impact the definition?

00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:05.619
of resilience? And does that impact our ability

00:20:05.619 --> 00:20:08.539
to be resilient? Because sometimes we have these

00:20:08.539 --> 00:20:11.640
comparisons, sometimes we feel more like a failure

00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:13.619
because we start comparing ourselves to others

00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:16.599
on social media. So there's all these factors

00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:19.559
that weren't in at play in the 90s or the 80s.

00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.700
And I was wondering what your thoughts were on

00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:26.539
it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Valeria, I really like

00:20:26.539 --> 00:20:28.640
where you're going with that, because once you

00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:30.960
enter and you add a new technology like social

00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:35.210
media, to this these mechanisms you what we're

00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:38.009
seeing of course is yeah people are um being

00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:40.630
somewhat disadvantaged in terms of their resilience

00:20:40.630 --> 00:20:43.329
or being made more vulnerable as a consequence

00:20:43.329 --> 00:20:45.869
of their time online the the social desirability

00:20:45.869 --> 00:20:48.809
the constant social comparisons they not you

00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:51.089
know the fear of missing out all of these phenomena

00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:53.869
are sort of creating psychological and social

00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:58.150
stress social anxiety you know uh seems to be

00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:01.579
undermining our Ability to feel good about ourselves

00:21:01.579 --> 00:21:05.140
have self esteem feel connected and all these

00:21:05.140 --> 00:21:07.279
other things that we know are the foundation

00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.240
stones for getting through a crisis are you being

00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.259
more resilient showing more resilience. That

00:21:14.259 --> 00:21:17.480
said i'll be a little bit of my own contrary

00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:20.700
in here for a second also hearing that when people

00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:24.859
are more actively engaged online finding communities.

00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.880
that they are with like -minded individuals that

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.220
maybe especially if you're feeling marginalized,

00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.160
if you're a new to a new country and you're not

00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:34.839
settling in or you want you know you're finding

00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.839
linguistically you're isolated or socially all

00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.059
of those folks are experiencing this social media

00:21:41.059 --> 00:21:44.839
universe is potentially very um helpful um avoiding

00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.619
the perils of acculturation voiding the perils

00:21:47.619 --> 00:21:51.720
of exclusion um breaking down what is an epidemic

00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.599
and in our country around loneliness and social

00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:58.680
isolation. So it's not all bad, but there is,

00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:00.799
of course, that distinction. And most of the

00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.079
researchers on social media seem to be pointing

00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:05.859
in this direction and saying, you have to be

00:22:05.859 --> 00:22:08.140
active online, not just passively. So if you're

00:22:08.140 --> 00:22:12.400
just passively watching videos, that's not great.

00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:15.259
But if you're actively posting and creating content

00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:17.619
and engaging in conversations, even gaming with

00:22:17.619 --> 00:22:20.640
a small community, it seems like This is not

00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.160
my research, this is other folks that the impact

00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:25.640
of those activities is potentially benign or

00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:29.039
even mildly positive as well. So I guess it's

00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.720
like any tool. How do we use it? And are we getting

00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:36.440
control of it to our benefit versus feeling like

00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.079
we're a victim of it? And from a resilience point

00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:40.619
of view, I think what we're trying to figure

00:22:40.619 --> 00:22:44.900
out is how can we actually tame this many headed

00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:48.400
beast called the internet and social media to

00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.480
our psychological and social advantage? Yeah.

00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:55.759
Yeah. And what I'm hearing is that it all depends

00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:01.259
eventually how we use social media and how we

00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.720
perceive it maybe and the narrative we build

00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:09.000
around it can help us either contribute to it

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.579
and feel like we're building a community or we'll

00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:14.700
either scroll through it passively, compare ourselves

00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:18.420
to others because that's how we perceive that

00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:20.500
it's just a tool that I can use to see people

00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:22.519
that are better than me or it's just somewhere

00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:24.700
where you can feel like you can find belonging

00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:27.519
by finding people you feel comfortable with and

00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.349
at home with. But yeah, thanks for that. I know

00:23:30.349 --> 00:23:32.670
it's a bit of a put you on the spot there with

00:23:32.670 --> 00:23:34.890
that question. But it's just something that popped

00:23:34.890 --> 00:23:37.190
into my head as you were describing the what

00:23:37.190 --> 00:23:40.069
how definitions of resilience can can vary across

00:23:40.069 --> 00:23:43.150
cultures. But I thought maybe they can vary across

00:23:43.150 --> 00:23:45.269
time, too, especially with these new technologies.

00:23:46.549 --> 00:23:49.049
But leading up to the next question, what are

00:23:49.049 --> 00:23:52.789
some given all that you've said? social media,

00:23:53.009 --> 00:23:55.150
not social media, our environments, our systems,

00:23:55.269 --> 00:23:57.950
what are some practical ways people can build

00:23:57.950 --> 00:24:00.430
resilience, even accounting for the fact that

00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:03.410
it's not all individual? And maybe they can adjust

00:24:03.410 --> 00:24:06.410
their surroundings with some simple steps, or

00:24:06.410 --> 00:24:09.269
not so simple steps, or taking individual action.

00:24:10.549 --> 00:24:12.670
What are some ways that people can build resilience,

00:24:12.789 --> 00:24:15.130
especially when they're feeling very vulnerable,

00:24:15.289 --> 00:24:19.470
they may be facing repeated rejections? um, and

00:24:19.470 --> 00:24:21.430
they're struggling to move forward. Where, where

00:24:21.430 --> 00:24:24.589
do they start? What, what should they do? Wow.

00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:26.710
Well, I think, I mean, I'd love to sort of switch

00:24:26.710 --> 00:24:28.730
the table on that and ask yourself how you got

00:24:28.730 --> 00:24:30.670
through those multiple rejections or how that

00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:34.589
got here. So obviously something happened, but,

00:24:34.809 --> 00:24:36.750
but if I was to just give you a cheat sheet of

00:24:36.750 --> 00:24:39.210
some of the things that I keep hearing about,

00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:43.150
you know, there's, there's, there's no sort of

00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:45.529
hierarchy to this. These are just ideas. And

00:24:45.529 --> 00:24:49.839
what, what we do see is, um, a connection between

00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:52.140
different factors. So it doesn't really matter

00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:54.500
what you choose as long as you start somewhere.

00:24:55.099 --> 00:24:57.039
That's kind of the message behind things like

00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:00.440
social prescribing, right? Doctors now are saying,

00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.200
you know, rather than giving a pill for depression

00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.339
or loneliness or social anxiety, they're saying

00:25:04.339 --> 00:25:07.519
basically, look, go, go to a movie with a friend

00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.200
or find someone go, you know, call up a family

00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.710
member, do something that will extend your social

00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:16.230
network and give you a real legitimate contact

00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:17.549
with somebody else. And that's probably going

00:25:17.549 --> 00:25:22.529
to be as impactful as taking a pill to modulate

00:25:22.529 --> 00:25:25.769
your mood in essence. But there's other things.

00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:28.569
I mean, you know, social relationships are really

00:25:28.569 --> 00:25:30.450
important and it doesn't have to be, you know,

00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:34.309
that intimate other that you found. You swipe

00:25:34.309 --> 00:25:36.569
left or right. I know I have five kids in their

00:25:36.569 --> 00:25:38.450
twenties are all swiping. Anyway, I know you

00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:43.700
swipe. But, but, you know, it's like, it's like,

00:25:43.700 --> 00:25:45.559
look, it doesn't have to be that kind of relationship,

00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:47.660
but it can also be the networks of people that

00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:51.299
we know. And, you know, if we, you know, if we

00:25:51.299 --> 00:25:52.960
have a dog, and we're at the dog park, and we're

00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:54.660
getting known as, oh, you're the owner of the

00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.660
golden, you know, golden doodle sort of thing

00:25:56.660 --> 00:25:59.099
or something, it's, it's all those informal networks

00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:01.400
that embed us and make us feel like we belong

00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:04.599
somewhere. So, so relationships are one sort

00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.160
of part of the, you know, the chair, if you will,

00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:09.079
it's going to be stable. But then there's others

00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:11.440
like, you know, I always start with people and

00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:13.839
routines. Do you have a basic routine to your

00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:16.380
day? If you're feeling all stressed and out of

00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:19.119
it and worried and catastrophizing and you're

00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.700
thinking, start with what is my routine? And

00:26:21.700 --> 00:26:23.819
because there's something about if I repeat the

00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:27.559
same routine each day, my world becomes more

00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:29.759
predictable and I become a little more optimistic

00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.259
because the world is like, I got through yesterday,

00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.640
I went to that coffee shop, I got to bed at night,

00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:37.839
everything, you know, can I repeat? then I'm

00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:40.839
more likely to finish the day. I believe I'm

00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:42.980
going to finish the day in exactly the same space.

00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:46.519
Gratitude jars, like having a little moment in

00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:49.240
time where I actually say, notice, and take a

00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:51.140
little pebble that I've gathered and put into

00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:53.900
my little gratitude jar. But it's the act of

00:26:53.900 --> 00:26:55.559
remembering something that happened positively

00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:58.359
during the day. But that cognitive trick only

00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:00.460
works if I have actually had something positive

00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:04.640
in my day. Something about, did I do something?

00:27:06.329 --> 00:27:08.690
There's Adam Grant's idea of being a giver and

00:27:08.690 --> 00:27:11.450
a taker that we want to give to somebody else.

00:27:11.549 --> 00:27:13.849
Maybe I actually cooked something and brought

00:27:13.849 --> 00:27:16.789
it to the office or I made an effort to offer

00:27:16.789 --> 00:27:19.730
to my neighbor to walk their dog. I see that

00:27:19.730 --> 00:27:21.609
there's some problem that they've had or something.

00:27:22.309 --> 00:27:24.950
So again and again, whether it's routines or

00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:27.980
contributing. finding meaningful opportunities

00:27:27.980 --> 00:27:30.799
to show, to use our talents, to use those skills,

00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.299
maybe in our workplace, to let other people know

00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:37.279
that we have something to contribute. There's,

00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:39.180
you know, other things, just making sure we feel

00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:43.660
safe. Looking after your sleep hygiene. Is the

00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:46.859
bed comfortable? Is the room dark enough for

00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:50.180
you? Is it, you know, is it quiet? Are you getting

00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:52.940
enough hours of sleep so you can rejuvenate?

00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.079
Are you taking your vacations if you're working?

00:27:56.669 --> 00:27:59.150
Or are you trying to make sure you're re -energizing?

00:27:59.190 --> 00:28:00.509
If you have young children, you're not going

00:28:00.509 --> 00:28:03.529
to do any of this, by the way. But that's part

00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:05.829
of, you know, that's a cycle of life. You know,

00:28:05.849 --> 00:28:09.049
you might go on to exhaustion or let the tank

00:28:09.049 --> 00:28:12.490
really empty for, you know, maybe because a parent

00:28:12.490 --> 00:28:14.910
is very ill or because a child is, you know,

00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:18.509
very young. Or you're going to school and you're

00:28:18.509 --> 00:28:20.650
training and you're in an internship that's just

00:28:20.650 --> 00:28:23.329
exhausting you, like many medical students experience.

00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:27.029
So all of these things, but the point is, is

00:28:27.029 --> 00:28:28.750
that there's an element of self -care, but there's

00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:31.630
also an element of finding those environments

00:28:31.630 --> 00:28:36.309
around you, whether it's through routine, housing,

00:28:36.910 --> 00:28:42.809
community, friends, pattern to your day, that

00:28:42.809 --> 00:28:48.130
allow you some space to re -energize and take

00:28:48.130 --> 00:28:51.490
away the stress. So, you know, I'm always thinking,

00:28:51.609 --> 00:28:54.710
sometimes people say, you know, Here's a very

00:28:54.710 --> 00:28:56.890
simple example. People say, oh, I'm having trouble

00:28:56.890 --> 00:28:59.170
with money, and I'm running out. My credit card

00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:01.109
is all maxed out. I've got all these problems.

00:29:02.069 --> 00:29:04.990
And part of it is, OK, let's send you off for

00:29:04.990 --> 00:29:07.329
a cognitive therapy to focus on how you can be

00:29:07.329 --> 00:29:09.609
more self -regulated, restrain yourself, and

00:29:09.609 --> 00:29:10.910
all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good.

00:29:10.950 --> 00:29:12.690
You want to do it. But the very first thing you

00:29:12.690 --> 00:29:19.140
do is you cut up the credit card. Right. Or you

00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:21.259
get a money card. You get a cash credit card

00:29:21.259 --> 00:29:25.059
as opposed to a billable credit card. There's

00:29:25.059 --> 00:29:26.740
other forms of credit cards you can get that

00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:28.960
would avoid them. In other words, when it's maxed

00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:35.000
out, it's done sort of thing. Or you avoid going

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:37.420
to places where you are likely to spend money.

00:29:38.299 --> 00:29:40.160
The other one, of course, is we change our peer

00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:44.519
group. This is the classic one with dieting,

00:29:44.619 --> 00:29:46.039
not that dieting should be done or whatever,

00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:50.299
but if you are becoming very health conscious

00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:52.119
and stuff, I say, it's very interesting. People

00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.960
do the cognitive thing. I'm going to focus. I'm

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.140
going to change my mindset. I'm going to think

00:29:57.140 --> 00:29:59.160
of myself as healthy. I'm going to have beautiful

00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:01.119
pictures of myself. I'm going to put up messages,

00:30:01.339 --> 00:30:05.960
whatever. Actually, one of the tricks is think

00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.740
about your peer group and who's in your peer

00:30:08.740 --> 00:30:10.819
group. Because if you change your peer group,

00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:13.859
sometimes it's a lot easier to stick to a different

00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:19.779
food regime. I would say on Friday nights, the

00:30:19.779 --> 00:30:22.779
regime was that all of us go have beer and wings

00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:26.160
at the local pub. Nothing wrong, by the way,

00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.759
with beer and wings. But if that's your routine,

00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:32.119
it's going to be very difficult for you to go

00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:38.559
and order a low -cal soda and a salad at the

00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.900
pub. It's a disgusting place to do it, but maybe

00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:43.740
you're gonna do it. You're not gonna do that

00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:46.319
for more than one week, I guarantee you. But

00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:49.799
if you change your peer group and suddenly that

00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:53.180
group is out on Friday nights going to play pickleball,

00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:56.440
which seems to be all the rage now, including

00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:00.500
with my family members, if pickleball, you know,

00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:03.559
if that's your Friday evening, then your peer

00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:06.079
group is going to kind of lead you into a different

00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:08.650
physical regime. and they're probably not going

00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:10.569
to go for beer and wings after, or they maybe

00:31:10.569 --> 00:31:13.150
they will, but probably won't have quite the

00:31:13.150 --> 00:31:15.910
same, you know, impact or whatever. So my point

00:31:15.910 --> 00:31:18.190
is, is that, you know, when people stop thinking

00:31:18.190 --> 00:31:22.309
about this as a purely individual pursuit, begin

00:31:22.309 --> 00:31:25.170
to think about this as a collective or my environment

00:31:25.170 --> 00:31:27.349
can change and that can spur me to be my best

00:31:27.349 --> 00:31:30.049
self. Generally speaking, the changes we try

00:31:30.049 --> 00:31:34.630
and make are more sustainable. Yeah, well said.

00:31:34.890 --> 00:31:37.930
No follow -up question to that. Definitely the

00:31:37.930 --> 00:31:40.970
routine one stuck with me. I'm struggling sometimes

00:31:40.970 --> 00:31:43.509
to find a few of routines, so I'll be personally

00:31:43.509 --> 00:31:47.849
working on that. But thank you for all the ways

00:31:47.849 --> 00:31:49.829
that people can build resilience. And yeah, keep

00:31:49.829 --> 00:31:54.990
in mind, everyone, that it's not individual resilience

00:31:54.990 --> 00:31:57.710
as much or even more about the people and the

00:31:57.710 --> 00:31:59.849
systems and the groups that you surround yourself

00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:02.529
with. That's definitely one of the bigger takeaways

00:32:02.529 --> 00:32:07.250
for me from our conversation today. And since

00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:10.029
we're kind of getting to the topic of rejections,

00:32:10.150 --> 00:32:12.849
and I asked all of the guests to share this if

00:32:12.849 --> 00:32:16.230
they're comfortable. So Michael, have you ever

00:32:16.230 --> 00:32:19.250
faced rejection in your professional personal

00:32:19.250 --> 00:32:23.430
life or personal life? How did you navigate it?

00:32:23.750 --> 00:32:27.470
And maybe it has helped you in some way. So,

00:32:27.470 --> 00:32:30.640
yeah. share what you feel comfortable sharing?

00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:35.279
Yeah, well, no, no, for sure. For sure. I think

00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.539
I mean, first of all, in my professional life

00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:39.519
now, I mean, I have a university professor and

00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.019
I publish a lot. Anyone's ever tried to publish

00:32:42.019 --> 00:32:46.720
a book, you know, I think we all have a bit of

00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:50.880
a narcissistic wound that occurs when everyone,

00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:54.299
you know, you get your rejection, your rejection

00:32:54.299 --> 00:32:56.259
letters, and you just have to have a really thick

00:32:56.259 --> 00:32:59.690
skin to continue to pursue grants and publications

00:32:59.690 --> 00:33:02.650
and books. That's just the nature of it. And

00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:04.990
indeed, I present a lot too in front of audiences

00:33:04.990 --> 00:33:08.349
and there's always somebody who's sort of trashing

00:33:08.349 --> 00:33:14.190
you in the, it's just the nature of whatever

00:33:14.190 --> 00:33:16.950
the way it is. And maybe a little bit today,

00:33:17.089 --> 00:33:19.569
there's a little more brutality in some of the

00:33:19.569 --> 00:33:23.269
way people talk to each other. But if you think

00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:25.109
about it on a more personal level, then I can

00:33:25.109 --> 00:33:27.809
even say like, there's probably I had, you know,

00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:30.190
obviously a rejection from my parents. It wasn't

00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:35.069
a very close relationship. They kind of drifted

00:33:35.069 --> 00:33:37.069
away, not just from me, but from my siblings

00:33:37.069 --> 00:33:39.750
as well and their grandchildren. So it was a

00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:41.670
very sort of, you know, sort of there was a lot

00:33:41.670 --> 00:33:44.230
of that kind of rejection, which I think I compensated

00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:49.950
for by finding a very great partner in my life.

00:33:50.349 --> 00:33:52.369
She's she's amazing. And it's kind of like, you

00:33:52.369 --> 00:33:54.710
know, you find other people who are your family.

00:33:56.619 --> 00:34:00.660
But you know, I do think in my life, too, I mean,

00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:03.039
because I was quite young, I had to take a lot

00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:07.259
of risks. I had to put myself out there. A big

00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:09.579
part of that has been embracing failure and learning

00:34:09.579 --> 00:34:12.880
from it and willing to go forward. In fact, you

00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:15.780
know, I was thinking it was one episode that

00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:20.239
really did stand out in a very funny way. I was

00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:25.440
sort of off my game. I just. I had an experience

00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.519
being out west. I came back to Montreal. I was

00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.139
trying to figure out what to do next in my career

00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:36.320
and life. I was in my early 20s. And things were

00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:39.400
really scraping the bottom financially. I didn't

00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:41.079
have a lot of money. I didn't have a lot of resources

00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:45.159
and kind of out of sorts. I thought I was going

00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:46.940
to stay west and have a job and didn't quite

00:34:46.940 --> 00:34:50.090
work out. Whatever. I'm back. in Montreal and

00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:53.030
I eventually applied to an organization that

00:34:53.030 --> 00:34:55.809
had a youth shelter. It was one of the first

00:34:55.809 --> 00:34:58.590
steps actually for me moving from more community

00:34:58.590 --> 00:35:00.050
work into youth work and that type of thing.

00:35:00.070 --> 00:35:05.429
So I applied for this job and I still remember

00:35:05.429 --> 00:35:08.530
the executive director asking me questions about

00:35:08.530 --> 00:35:11.010
how to handle certain situations and what would

00:35:11.010 --> 00:35:12.389
be your repertoire and what would you think your

00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:13.710
strengths are and all this kind of question.

00:35:14.710 --> 00:35:19.280
And I blew it. Oh my gosh, it was Uh, it was

00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.519
an awful interview. I mean, I muddled answers.

00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:26.320
I obviously answered the wrong thing. I, you

00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:29.000
know, I could just tell he's off my game. I,

00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:32.519
you know, incoherent. I think we've all had those

00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:35.119
interviews. I had one like that recently, I think.

00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.960
So I walked out of the, oh, well, I'll try again,

00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:40.639
do something else or figure out another path

00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:45.059
here. Whenever it is two days later, the executive

00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:47.809
director calls me. I say, oh, it's going to be

00:35:47.809 --> 00:35:49.630
a rejection. He says, yeah, we'd like to offer

00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:53.510
you the job. And my very first sentence out to

00:35:53.510 --> 00:35:55.309
him, back to him, honestly, I'm not lying about

00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:58.349
this. I said to him, his name is Michael. Michael,

00:35:59.969 --> 00:36:02.309
why are you offering me this job? I knew that

00:36:02.309 --> 00:36:07.130
interview. And he kind of chuckled a little bit.

00:36:07.150 --> 00:36:09.489
And he said, honestly, you want the honest answer?

00:36:10.210 --> 00:36:16.210
You were the best of the worst. I don't know.

00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:19.409
And what an epithet, right? You were the best

00:36:19.409 --> 00:36:23.190
of the worst or something. Anyways, but I was

00:36:23.190 --> 00:36:24.429
just happened to be in the right place at the

00:36:24.429 --> 00:36:26.670
wrong time. I was, I guess I was breathing and

00:36:26.670 --> 00:36:28.949
didn't look like I was going to do any harm.

00:36:29.730 --> 00:36:32.809
It's actually quite good at the job. And I just,

00:36:32.989 --> 00:36:35.110
it was a moment. We have all been in the wrong

00:36:35.110 --> 00:36:37.030
space for a particular interview and it worked

00:36:37.030 --> 00:36:40.809
out. And it was actually for me, a catalyst to

00:36:40.809 --> 00:36:45.090
a whole career path that really has affected

00:36:45.090 --> 00:36:48.769
me for, you know, 35, 40 years. But, um, I still

00:36:48.769 --> 00:36:51.869
remember, uh, Michael's, uh, telling me that

00:36:51.869 --> 00:36:54.849
you were the best of the worst, but, um, I mean,

00:36:54.969 --> 00:36:57.429
I know that's not quite the rejection is it was

00:36:57.429 --> 00:37:01.429
in a sense of backhanded rejection. Um, but sometimes,

00:37:01.429 --> 00:37:03.690
you know, we have to acknowledge that we just

00:37:03.690 --> 00:37:05.469
aren't the right, we aren't in the right space

00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:09.170
to succeed. Now this I did, you know, one has

00:37:09.170 --> 00:37:14.000
to integrate those. lessons of failure and see

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.260
it as a feedback loop in terms of a learning

00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:21.460
cycle that pushes you forward to then think,

00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:23.880
what can I do better? What do I need in terms

00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:26.539
of skill development, social supports or friends

00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:28.579
or colleagues? What do I need in terms of, you

00:37:28.579 --> 00:37:31.780
know, if I'm open to learning, I'm more likely

00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:35.280
to succeed. And I, you know, I think when we

00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:39.420
shut down to the learning, we were more likely

00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:42.059
to just continue the failure. So there's definitely

00:37:42.059 --> 00:37:44.280
an element of saying, you know, thankfully I

00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.199
failed and gave me more information about what

00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:49.320
I had to do next. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing

00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.179
that and the fact that you said sometimes we're

00:37:51.179 --> 00:37:54.380
just not in this space the headspace to succeed

00:37:54.380 --> 00:37:58.099
I definitely Felt that with med school and the

00:37:58.099 --> 00:38:00.400
MCAT writing and all of the path that I went

00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.739
through It's just I was trying really hard and

00:38:02.739 --> 00:38:05.400
I have a really I have a pretty good GPA It's

00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.260
not the best. It's not like 4 .0, but it's good

00:38:08.260 --> 00:38:10.000
So it's like I shouldn't have a problem with

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.039
the MCAT, but I just did I studied I wrote that

00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:16.059
thing three times and I studied for it like crazy

00:38:16.059 --> 00:38:18.320
I did everything I thought I could within my

00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.260
financial budget. Um, and just nothing. And then

00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:23.159
on top of it, I dislocated my kneecap, which

00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.420
is fine by the way, uh, now, but I dislocated

00:38:25.420 --> 00:38:27.400
my kneecap before my final attempt. I'm like,

00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.260
what is this? Just what the odds are just not,

00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.920
but you know, it gets given me so much learning

00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:35.300
and it has led me to me starting this podcast.

00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.780
And it serves me much better to think that in

00:38:38.780 --> 00:38:42.079
a way I glad I had that experience because it

00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:44.820
has taught me so much and it has taught me to

00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:48.019
focus in a way it's kind of forced me to focus

00:38:48.019 --> 00:38:54.099
on more self -care and actually pursue more peace.

00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:57.340
Because even if I got into medical school, I

00:38:57.340 --> 00:39:01.159
think I would have burned out by so much expectation

00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:04.179
and I was so sensitive to it all and I was such

00:39:04.179 --> 00:39:05.980
a perfectionist and I needed to just get away

00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:07.840
from that. And I think all those experiences

00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.590
helped me get away from that kind of thinking.

00:39:10.690 --> 00:39:13.849
And I'm still working on it, but I'm in so much

00:39:13.849 --> 00:39:16.730
better space than I used to be. And I don't even

00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:19.650
want to, not that there's anything wrong with

00:39:19.650 --> 00:39:22.250
medicine, but I don't think I want to pursue

00:39:22.250 --> 00:39:24.269
it, at least in the near future. So it's funny

00:39:24.269 --> 00:39:29.070
the way life just happens sometimes. But yeah,

00:39:29.329 --> 00:39:31.710
so thank you for sharing it. And it still kind

00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:34.190
of counts as a rejection because you thought

00:39:34.190 --> 00:39:36.969
that you had the worst interview, maybe in a

00:39:36.969 --> 00:39:39.429
way called self -rejection. And best of the worst

00:39:39.429 --> 00:39:43.590
is a backhanded compliment, but you did the job

00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:47.090
just great. And I think you were just fine. And

00:39:47.090 --> 00:39:49.789
yeah, but thank you. So I'm just reflecting what

00:39:49.789 --> 00:39:52.670
I was thinking as you were sharing your story.

00:39:53.550 --> 00:39:57.610
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, if we're sort of open

00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:00.590
to it. What I worry about sometimes is the, and

00:40:00.590 --> 00:40:04.010
this is the focus of the latest book, The Limits

00:40:04.010 --> 00:40:06.449
of Resilience. What I would worry about is sometimes

00:40:06.449 --> 00:40:12.289
we are trying to be too resilient. In fact, you

00:40:12.289 --> 00:40:14.409
know, I gotta say, it was kind of funny being

00:40:14.409 --> 00:40:18.750
invited onto this podcast because I had an experience

00:40:18.750 --> 00:40:23.119
of, you know, once working with a fellow who

00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.559
applied to medical school three times and each

00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.500
time was rejected by multiple medical schools.

00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:32.579
And, and his approach was, well, he's just going

00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:35.900
to keep applying until he gets in. And there

00:40:35.900 --> 00:40:39.440
was no real refinement of his skillset. He didn't

00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.639
go back and, you know, repeat courses. He didn't

00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:44.480
kind of like, like it was kind of like, okay,

00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.019
I'm going to be resilient and I'm just going

00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:49.179
to keep trying and trying and trying. And I kind

00:40:49.179 --> 00:40:51.239
of wanted to explain that that is not resilience.

00:40:51.469 --> 00:40:55.889
That is toxic positivity I think it goes by these

00:40:55.889 --> 00:40:59.369
days because it's not that you shouldn't keep

00:40:59.369 --> 00:41:03.449
trying, but if three times you're really flat

00:41:03.449 --> 00:41:07.929
out rejected, then maybe it is time to, even

00:41:07.929 --> 00:41:10.650
if you are trying a fourth or fifth time, maybe

00:41:10.650 --> 00:41:13.210
you have to start opening other doors. And I

00:41:13.210 --> 00:41:15.929
remember asking him, why do you want to be a

00:41:15.929 --> 00:41:19.070
doctor? And the answer was really about money

00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:23.320
and prestige, not about care and service. And

00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:26.960
so if your criteria is you want money and prestige,

00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:32.780
then why have you equated that with a medical

00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:37.019
profession? No, versus maybe thinking about other

00:41:37.019 --> 00:41:39.960
ways. And even if you're in them, so so you know,

00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:42.659
if his answer was obviously pointing to any number

00:41:42.659 --> 00:41:46.559
of different uses, he could go into business

00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.920
or management, he could go in, you know, I don't

00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:51.199
know, whatever else he could go into. But also

00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:53.139
if he was really into the care and service side

00:41:53.139 --> 00:41:56.380
of it and medical profession wasn't being a doctor

00:41:56.380 --> 00:41:59.860
per se wasn't quite accessible. What's remarkable

00:41:59.860 --> 00:42:02.159
is all the other allied professionals, whether

00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:07.639
it's nursing, physiotherapy, OT, ophthalmology,

00:42:08.380 --> 00:42:11.659
pharmacy, you know, I can just keep going on

00:42:11.659 --> 00:42:16.780
and on and on. You know, that there are that

00:42:16.780 --> 00:42:20.280
there are all these other ways of entering a

00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:23.500
medical facility as a competent, caring contributor

00:42:23.500 --> 00:42:28.760
to your community without it only being as a

00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.039
physician. There are so many different ways that

00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:34.579
you could be interested in science and pure or

00:42:34.579 --> 00:42:38.340
applied science. And I do sometimes wonder if

00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:42.019
enough people are thinking about all the other

00:42:42.019 --> 00:42:45.380
pathways that that kind of intellect could go.

00:42:47.019 --> 00:42:52.000
And maybe we don't want all the type A, you know,

00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:56.400
academic and describe myself, but you know, becoming,

00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:00.139
you know, medical docs, maybe we want some of

00:43:00.139 --> 00:43:04.500
them to fail more. Like we don't do personality

00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:06.260
tests on them. We don't say, are you going to

00:43:06.260 --> 00:43:10.639
actually be happy in this rather routinized environment

00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:14.269
of career? You know, one sometimes has to think

00:43:14.269 --> 00:43:16.250
that maybe in the failure to get into medical

00:43:16.250 --> 00:43:17.929
school, there's certain personalities that are

00:43:17.929 --> 00:43:21.050
actually more likely to be quite happy with another

00:43:21.050 --> 00:43:25.690
choice. Yeah. And speaking as a former pre -med,

00:43:25.889 --> 00:43:29.849
I think I used to kind of idealize or romanticize

00:43:29.849 --> 00:43:32.969
the profession. And because certain cultures

00:43:32.969 --> 00:43:35.250
are like when parents, my parents heard that

00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:36.909
I wanted to be a doctor, they didn't even question

00:43:36.909 --> 00:43:40.519
it. Although it's an honorable medical profession,

00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:42.400
but like you said, there's so many different

00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:44.159
fields, so many different jobs out there. We

00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:46.619
just don't bother sometimes looking at because

00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:49.019
we're just so fixated on that. That's what happened

00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:51.719
to me. And the recently I watched this video

00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:56.619
of a she has the girl, I don't know her name,

00:43:56.659 --> 00:44:00.440
but she's on Instagram. She's has a degree for

00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:02.780
medical doctor and she started working as a doctor.

00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:06.679
But then she quit. She quit and she pursued the

00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.039
job of an actor. she's now an actress and she's

00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:12.639
pursuing that and she's much more happy in that.

00:44:12.820 --> 00:44:15.159
And I think what she was saying is that sometimes

00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:18.780
when you're considering the profession of a physician,

00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:21.960
sometimes you, like you said, some people will

00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:24.199
be really happy with that. They have that personality

00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:25.960
type that they'll be really happy with how the

00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:28.960
job is, all the hours, what the routine is like.

00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:31.440
But sometimes you're going into that, you get

00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:34.019
accepted and you just don't fit into that mold

00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:37.090
that they're they've built for the medical professionals

00:44:37.090 --> 00:44:39.230
and then it's really and then you're in that

00:44:39.230 --> 00:44:41.710
you you're like okay I wait I put so much money

00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:44.550
into this I'm I'm now a doctor and I don't feel

00:44:44.550 --> 00:44:46.369
fulfilled I don't feel like this is for me and

00:44:46.369 --> 00:44:50.469
I feel like potentially I can't speak for sure

00:44:50.469 --> 00:44:54.449
because I'm not in their shoes but I'm confident

00:44:54.449 --> 00:44:57.590
that there are people who do have that realization

00:44:57.590 --> 00:44:59.210
there are people who switch and then they talk

00:44:59.210 --> 00:45:01.130
about like what you're saying is that there are

00:45:01.130 --> 00:45:03.670
other professions and sometimes medical profession

00:45:03.670 --> 00:45:06.590
is just not something that fits everyone's personality.

00:45:06.670 --> 00:45:09.289
And it's worth looking into other things as well.

00:45:09.530 --> 00:45:11.489
And I'm so happy that rejection happened for

00:45:11.489 --> 00:45:14.550
me. So that's my story of rejection is redirection

00:45:14.550 --> 00:45:16.469
because I started looking at entrepreneurship.

00:45:16.710 --> 00:45:18.670
I started looking at management. I started looking,

00:45:18.949 --> 00:45:21.030
uh, mental health startups, something I would

00:45:21.030 --> 00:45:23.250
never consider because I was just so fixated

00:45:23.250 --> 00:45:26.750
on this medicine bubble. Um, and finally, my

00:45:26.750 --> 00:45:28.929
rejection forced me to look a bit outwards and

00:45:28.929 --> 00:45:30.789
see what else is out there. And I realized, oh,

00:45:30.909 --> 00:45:34.150
there are more things that fit more my talents,

00:45:34.409 --> 00:45:36.969
my current talents, my strength, my values, and

00:45:36.969 --> 00:45:39.150
maybe I should pursue those. And who knows, maybe

00:45:39.150 --> 00:45:40.630
in the future I'll come back to medicine, but

00:45:40.630 --> 00:45:43.699
maybe I won't. I'm not as tied to it. as that

00:45:43.699 --> 00:45:47.639
used to be. For me, it's becoming less more obvious

00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:50.440
as I do the research in this area, too, that

00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:52.820
people puzzle pieces, we don't have that one,

00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.940
you know, we do a puzzle has to fit into one

00:45:55.940 --> 00:45:59.699
slot. And there's a sort of determinism in that

00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:01.960
right that, you know, oh, well, you know, your,

00:46:02.179 --> 00:46:03.760
your parents will sign, you're going to become

00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:05.119
a doctor, you're gonna be an engineer, you're

00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.480
gonna whatever. Yeah, but I think of us must

00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:10.699
more like 10 grams. which was a collection of

00:46:10.699 --> 00:46:15.019
shapes that can form variety of different shape.

00:46:15.420 --> 00:46:16.820
So you can put them into a square, you can put

00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:18.360
them into a rectangle and make a little bird

00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:20.559
out of them or whatever. Like if you take the,

00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:22.500
you know, a bunch of different types of squares,

00:46:22.699 --> 00:46:25.260
triangles, rectangles, you know, and you can

00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:27.340
into different, into different shapes, they sort

00:46:27.340 --> 00:46:30.320
of snap together. And I remember in one of our

00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.280
studies, there was this fellow in his late twenties

00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:37.559
who had an interesting story. He, he had originally

00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:41.699
wanted to be an actor. He actually wanted to

00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:43.460
be an actor and he went to school and studied

00:46:43.460 --> 00:46:46.579
acting and, you know, left university and was

00:46:46.579 --> 00:46:48.980
one of those struggling actors working in a,

00:46:49.019 --> 00:46:50.940
you know, the restaurants and stuff. And he was

00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:53.199
trying to get a few little gigs and television

00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:56.039
and whatever. And it was going to be pretty mediocre

00:46:56.039 --> 00:47:01.539
for him. He, you know, he came back and he ended

00:47:01.539 --> 00:47:05.599
up, he had a life partner and it was you know,

00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:07.260
getting pretty serious. And they were thinking

00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:11.599
about a child. And anyways, he ended up to earn

00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:15.420
money. He started working with his brother in

00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:17.440
a company that his brother had that was making

00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:20.440
literally cement foundations for houses. And

00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:22.840
the economy was reasonably good and there's a

00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:24.559
lot of work. And so he's kind of doing that,

00:47:24.579 --> 00:47:26.460
earning better money than he would at, you know,

00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:29.699
wherever else he could work. But he was still

00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:33.599
trying to become an actor. Anyways, eventually

00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:36.929
his brother decided to get out of the business

00:47:36.929 --> 00:47:39.510
and wanted to get rid of the business, sell it

00:47:39.510 --> 00:47:42.469
off or whatever. And this, this young fella that

00:47:42.469 --> 00:47:44.349
it was just in his late twenties at the time,

00:47:44.409 --> 00:47:46.070
he said, he looked at the situation and kind

00:47:46.070 --> 00:47:47.789
of made a very strategic decision. He said, you

00:47:47.789 --> 00:47:49.590
know, this acting thing, I don't think it's working.

00:47:49.730 --> 00:47:53.250
It's kind of a bit of a failure, but, um, I kind

00:47:53.250 --> 00:47:56.429
of would like a steady paycheck. I don't think

00:47:56.429 --> 00:48:00.110
I'm built for this, you know, endless insecurity.

00:48:00.469 --> 00:48:03.610
I would like a steady paycheck. I'd like to just

00:48:03.610 --> 00:48:08.190
have a routine to my day to do something outdoors,

00:48:08.590 --> 00:48:10.789
whatever. And so what he did was he actually

00:48:10.789 --> 00:48:13.269
took over the foundation building company, this

00:48:13.269 --> 00:48:16.710
cement foundations, I put in new houses and it

00:48:16.710 --> 00:48:19.530
gave him financial stability. It gave him, you

00:48:19.530 --> 00:48:21.309
know, his management skills, a little bit, whatever.

00:48:21.489 --> 00:48:25.030
And this is the best part. He is now part of

00:48:25.030 --> 00:48:27.800
a community theater troupe. still goes away to

00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:30.900
workshops on theater and his hobby his passion

00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:36.280
his his uh his his persona is still kind of an

00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.900
actor but but he realized that he had more dimensions

00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:43.760
to himself than that one job would necessarily

00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:46.820
fulfill and i'm always amazed when people you

00:48:46.820 --> 00:48:49.320
know if you think about our resilience is a collection

00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:52.820
of factors we are not just i want to be on stage

00:48:52.820 --> 00:48:55.800
though for some people that is the only thing

00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:58.239
that they want. But for others, it's also about

00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.679
connections and friends and being in a community

00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:04.760
or feeling you love to read, you love to explore

00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:08.360
ideas, you know, whatever it is about that, that

00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:12.079
you love to do. But if it's only about being

00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:13.980
on that stage in front of the audience and getting

00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:16.099
those accolades and that sort of narcissistic

00:49:16.099 --> 00:49:18.960
boost, you might become kind of a bit disappointed

00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:23.489
unless you really are the best of the best. Sometimes

00:49:23.489 --> 00:49:25.389
in our, you know, in our failure to achieve something,

00:49:25.409 --> 00:49:28.469
we might actually have a more satisfying life

00:49:28.469 --> 00:49:34.230
overall. Yeah. And this wasn't my question, but

00:49:34.230 --> 00:49:36.070
I think we're kind of answering it right now

00:49:36.070 --> 00:49:38.670
is that the book, the limits of resilience. And

00:49:38.670 --> 00:49:40.969
like you said, like, how do you know when to,

00:49:41.050 --> 00:49:43.849
when to quit? Are we being too resilient? And

00:49:43.849 --> 00:49:47.670
is it too much when you just put Your whole identity

00:49:47.670 --> 00:49:50.550
around like you said being on stage maybe like

00:49:50.550 --> 00:49:53.510
unless you're the best of the best Which let's

00:49:53.510 --> 00:49:56.269
face it. There's so many there's eight more than

00:49:56.269 --> 00:49:58.849
eight billion people on the planet We can't all

00:49:58.849 --> 00:50:01.550
be the best of the best so we have to have not

00:50:01.550 --> 00:50:05.389
we have to but depending on Your personality

00:50:05.389 --> 00:50:07.710
and what maybe there's more aspects to your life

00:50:07.710 --> 00:50:10.769
than just a career or your relationship So it's

00:50:10.769 --> 00:50:13.550
nice to not put you all your eggs in one basket

00:50:13.550 --> 00:50:18.469
pretty much And I was wondering, do you have

00:50:18.469 --> 00:50:22.309
other points to say about how resilience is not

00:50:22.309 --> 00:50:24.429
just about bouncing back, but it's also about

00:50:24.429 --> 00:50:27.469
our ability to self -destruct and embrace occasional

00:50:27.469 --> 00:50:30.010
much needed failure? I really like that point.

00:50:30.050 --> 00:50:32.329
And it really aligns with the mission of this

00:50:32.329 --> 00:50:34.130
podcast because it is actually just about showing

00:50:34.130 --> 00:50:37.469
how failure can help us become better in a way

00:50:37.469 --> 00:50:39.789
we can personally grow, professionally grow.

00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:42.780
If you like, you can add more things that can

00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:44.900
you please like elaborate on this in more detail?

00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:47.420
Or how do you think this idea even just applies

00:50:47.420 --> 00:50:50.059
to rejection per se? Although we did already

00:50:50.059 --> 00:50:52.079
talk about it. But I was wondering what else

00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.960
you can you can say about this? Yeah, I do find

00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:57.000
it's an interesting perspective on resilience.

00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:00.860
Once one gets out of the idea that, you know,

00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:03.119
endless striving is necessarily resilience, because

00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:06.179
sometimes, you know, as the title of the book

00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:08.519
suggests, it's, you know, in the limits of resilience,

00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:11.969
it's sometimes better. better to persevere, sometimes

00:51:11.969 --> 00:51:16.090
better to change, and sometimes to quit. And

00:51:16.090 --> 00:51:18.989
all of those strategies are aspects of resilience.

00:51:19.150 --> 00:51:22.250
In fact, there are these famous stories of when

00:51:22.250 --> 00:51:27.869
a business like Kodak just didn't know they were

00:51:27.869 --> 00:51:31.230
persevering with film, even though they had the

00:51:31.230 --> 00:51:34.570
technology for digital long before anyone else,

00:51:34.929 --> 00:51:39.530
but they just didn't know when to change. because

00:51:39.530 --> 00:51:42.489
they were so economically successful with film.

00:51:42.730 --> 00:51:44.269
And of course they were just wiped out within

00:51:44.269 --> 00:51:46.650
a couple of years. They went from, you know,

00:51:46.650 --> 00:51:49.489
you know, major fortune 500 to basically obliterated

00:51:49.489 --> 00:51:51.710
out of the market because of the technology that

00:51:51.710 --> 00:51:55.809
came along. So you, you know, there is, and there's

00:51:55.809 --> 00:51:59.630
lots of examples like that when we, you know,

00:51:59.630 --> 00:52:04.289
we just need to sometimes know when to, when

00:52:04.289 --> 00:52:06.489
to change, when to self disrupt. I mean, you

00:52:06.489 --> 00:52:09.639
know, sometimes it's, it's, it's just amazing

00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:14.019
that sometimes we just need to know when, you

00:52:14.019 --> 00:52:16.239
know, when enough is enough. And that's also

00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:17.719
a sign of resilience, even though from the outside

00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:19.760
it can look like failure. And I'm, you know,

00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:21.460
obviously anyone's gone through a divorce. You

00:52:21.460 --> 00:52:23.579
know, there are, there are divorces that happen

00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:25.679
to you. And then sometimes divorces that you

00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:28.539
do or breaking up in any relationship for that

00:52:28.539 --> 00:52:31.320
matter. And, you know, I think, you know, often

00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:34.480
even in, in my work with families and stuff,

00:52:34.539 --> 00:52:36.559
you know, sometimes you say that this is really,

00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:40.599
you can save this, but Do you want to? Like,

00:52:40.599 --> 00:52:42.280
is it really worth it? I mean, it's never going

00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:44.920
to really be great. It's going to be sustainable,

00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:47.219
but it's not going to be great. And then sometimes

00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:49.219
when people are still, you know, maybe young

00:52:49.219 --> 00:52:52.139
enough or they have the resources to do it, the

00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:55.139
advice might be that, you know, failure at this

00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:57.179
marriage or this relationship is actually a better

00:52:57.179 --> 00:53:00.340
strategy right now to move on. And that's not,

00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:02.860
that's a resilient strategy because it allows

00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:06.480
you then to access the next to the, to be open

00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:08.840
to what's about to happen. and come up in the

00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:12.000
future, which can be really wonderful for you.

00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.639
So I think sometimes we're like, we misunderstand

00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:19.699
resilience as endless persistence of never letting

00:53:19.699 --> 00:53:22.980
go of tenacity. And while that is, those are

00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:27.139
good traits in many cases, there's also cases

00:53:27.139 --> 00:53:30.619
where letting go would be better and that, you

00:53:30.619 --> 00:53:33.559
know, just acknowledging that maybe this is a

00:53:33.559 --> 00:53:36.789
bad fit where we are. and this relationship isn't

00:53:36.789 --> 00:53:40.989
working or whatever, or this career, this town

00:53:40.989 --> 00:53:44.829
isn't working. And that resilience to know when

00:53:44.829 --> 00:53:47.630
to let go and to admit defeat and to move on

00:53:47.630 --> 00:53:50.570
is a really good skill set and ultimately sets

00:53:50.570 --> 00:53:55.090
us up for future success. How does one have that

00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:57.469
skill? Does it come from self -awareness or is

00:53:57.469 --> 00:53:59.889
there more to it? How do they know when to accept

00:53:59.889 --> 00:54:02.969
defeat or either way it's resilience or keep

00:54:02.969 --> 00:54:06.199
going? Well, yeah, it's, you know, like any sort

00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:09.800
of strategic withdrawal, even in conflict situations.

00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:13.559
I think you're partly in self -awareness. It's

00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:16.159
also experience. Sometimes it's willingness to

00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:18.539
listen to friends and others who are telling

00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:20.900
us or giving us clues that this is not really

00:54:20.900 --> 00:54:24.920
the best place for you. But often it is, unfortunately,

00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:28.000
a cognitive strategy that starts with us being

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.199
brave enough to question that and say, yeah,

00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:33.900
this is the time for a change. I think that usually

00:54:33.900 --> 00:54:37.920
the cue is there, we're uncomfortable. We're

00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:39.940
psychosomatically, we're not sleeping, we're

00:54:39.940 --> 00:54:42.480
not eating, or we're overeating, we're disrupted,

00:54:42.579 --> 00:54:45.519
or we're oversleeping. We're dysregulated in

00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:47.519
some respects, and often those are clues that

00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:50.639
something isn't quite right and is where we are.

00:54:50.699 --> 00:54:54.420
Now, I'm assuming the person has the power to

00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:56.260
leave. If you're in an abusive relationship,

00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:58.199
please don't heed this advice. You could put

00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:01.280
yourself in a very dangerous situation. Same

00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:03.019
way as, you know, financially, you might not

00:55:03.019 --> 00:55:07.500
be able to divorce. It'd be a tremendous drain

00:55:07.500 --> 00:55:09.840
on your, you're starting a new business and suddenly

00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:11.199
you're going through a divorce and now you're

00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.679
bankrupt or something. So there's a reasonableness

00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:19.260
to this, what I'm saying. But when you have the

00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:25.440
opportunities to move on, retrain, reboot, this

00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:28.519
is not necessarily a bad resilience strategy.

00:55:29.739 --> 00:55:33.719
for that sort of strategic rolling back and then

00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:35.940
starting again. I think entrepreneurs are really

00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:38.000
good at that. They'll know that it's time to

00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:39.800
declare bankruptcy and move on to the next big

00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:43.280
idea. People who invent things are really good

00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:45.559
at that too. They know when this experiment is

00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:48.480
going nowhere, it's a failure. And they'll move

00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:54.280
on to the next idea. If you... You know, I like,

00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.019
I like watching those shows, those dragon dens,

00:55:57.739 --> 00:56:00.300
or, you know, shark tank in the US, dragon den

00:56:00.300 --> 00:56:02.940
in Canada, there's variations on it when entrepreneurs

00:56:02.940 --> 00:56:05.639
pitch ideas. And the, the entrepreneurs who are

00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:07.579
going to, you know, make the money that are going

00:56:07.579 --> 00:56:10.219
to give them money are often like, you've, you've

00:56:10.219 --> 00:56:12.760
done this for how many years? And you still have

00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:17.219
an idea. And you know, yeah, sure. There's always

00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:19.719
that one case in a hundred that, you know, they

00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.309
show them five years later. Look at me. Great

00:56:22.309 --> 00:56:24.969
success. I never took your advice, which is great.

00:56:25.070 --> 00:56:28.650
But the other 99 did go home and wasted more

00:56:28.650 --> 00:56:32.409
money. Right. So sometimes, I mean, you know,

00:56:32.409 --> 00:56:34.110
you still have, you know, if you're happy with

00:56:34.110 --> 00:56:36.710
what if you're happy with pursuing this, then

00:56:36.710 --> 00:56:40.409
you keep going. Keep going. Enjoy it. Why not?

00:56:41.210 --> 00:56:43.769
Who cares? You're you're in it. You love it.

00:56:44.010 --> 00:56:46.949
And more power to you. I won't judge. Right.

00:56:47.269 --> 00:56:51.179
But if you're not happy. then maybe that's a

00:56:51.179 --> 00:56:55.320
clue to begin to think about option B, like the

00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:57.719
second choices, or maybe third or fifth choices.

00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:01.619
And when you look at people who are resilient,

00:57:01.659 --> 00:57:05.059
who show resilience, these patterns appear in

00:57:05.059 --> 00:57:08.059
their lives. They know when to self disrupt or

00:57:08.059 --> 00:57:11.139
they have experiences of self disruption that

00:57:11.139 --> 00:57:13.539
have often led them into something better, or

00:57:13.539 --> 00:57:15.440
at least gotten them out of a bad situation.

00:57:17.900 --> 00:57:20.880
I relate this to my experience as well. And this

00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:23.980
is such great advice because it relates to like

00:57:23.980 --> 00:57:26.239
so much, like it's not just personal, like it's

00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:27.960
not just academic or professional, it can relate

00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:30.460
to personal situations. In my case, I think it

00:57:30.460 --> 00:57:33.920
was until now, I didn't realize like the way

00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:36.119
you framed it that resilience is also just about

00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:40.280
letting go sometimes. And for me, I felt this

00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:42.840
immense pressure when I realized I don't wanna

00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:45.619
write the MCAT anymore. Again, I don't want to

00:57:45.619 --> 00:57:49.789
pursue medical school. I knew I felt that almost

00:57:49.789 --> 00:57:53.449
as soon as I and I even felt that even before

00:57:53.449 --> 00:57:56.130
I got rejection from medical school I felt that

00:57:56.130 --> 00:57:57.690
I don't even know if there's something that's

00:57:57.690 --> 00:58:00.630
for me but after I didn't get like after I decided

00:58:00.630 --> 00:58:03.309
and I told my parents I told my friends so many

00:58:03.309 --> 00:58:05.469
of them but you work so hard for this so why

00:58:05.469 --> 00:58:09.219
are you giving up come on look like I've I've

00:58:09.219 --> 00:58:11.119
heard of people who applied so many times and

00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:13.840
they got in. I'm like, and I heard all these

00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:17.440
stories and I'm like, I hear you. But and I remember

00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:20.019
after all these conversations, I was in my car

00:58:20.019 --> 00:58:22.239
after that and I was crying like, what am I doing?

00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:24.420
Am I doing something wrong? Like, my heart tells

00:58:24.420 --> 00:58:28.380
me one thing, my friends and my family are telling

00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:30.500
me another thing. Right now, everyone's kind

00:58:30.500 --> 00:58:32.280
of already adjusted to the fact that I'm not

00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:34.019
going to medicine. But in the first few months

00:58:34.019 --> 00:58:36.739
when that just happened, it hit me hard. And

00:58:36.739 --> 00:58:39.539
I think journaling Well, for me personally, journaling

00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:41.519
helped me get through that because journaling

00:58:41.519 --> 00:58:43.579
is when I was almost interrogating myself at

00:58:43.579 --> 00:58:46.340
some points, where it's like, do I want to go?

00:58:46.420 --> 00:58:48.059
Do I want to do this again? Everyone's telling

00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:50.059
you to go. It's logical to probably go because

00:58:50.059 --> 00:58:52.099
you put so many years into like of your life

00:58:52.099 --> 00:58:54.780
into this. But then I started writing to myself,

00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:57.739
like almost angrily at myself, like you obviously

00:58:57.739 --> 00:59:01.119
don't want to do this. Just let go. And I think

00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.400
eventually I started letting go of that. But

00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:08.360
it felt like a very jarring. Experience and now

00:59:08.360 --> 00:59:11.500
that you're saying all this it's all making sense

00:59:11.500 --> 00:59:15.190
now i had to have a certain amount of. determination

00:59:15.190 --> 00:59:17.650
to kind of go through with what I wanted to,

00:59:17.789 --> 00:59:19.750
what it felt right at the moment, other than

00:59:19.750 --> 00:59:21.750
that, like the pressure that was from the outside.

00:59:21.849 --> 00:59:24.090
And some people were supporting me in my decision,

00:59:24.130 --> 00:59:26.469
but others were not understanding why am I just

00:59:26.469 --> 00:59:28.610
after one time of not getting accepted, why am

00:59:28.610 --> 00:59:31.210
I not applying again? I think I made the right

00:59:31.210 --> 00:59:33.190
decision. And hearing you say these things about

00:59:33.190 --> 00:59:36.210
resilience, just now I'm even more sure that

00:59:36.210 --> 00:59:40.150
I made the right decision. I have another question

00:59:40.150 --> 00:59:42.909
for you. It seems like we do have the time. So

00:59:42.909 --> 00:59:45.889
one of your books titled Multisystemic Resilience,

00:59:45.929 --> 00:59:48.949
and you've touched on this briefly already, integrates

00:59:48.949 --> 00:59:51.969
different knowledge systems. It's including research

00:59:51.969 --> 00:59:55.070
that taps into local knowledge, Indigenous ways

00:59:55.070 --> 00:59:58.030
of knowing, as well as some Western science.

00:59:58.730 --> 01:00:02.909
How can this interdisciplinary approach be used

01:00:02.909 --> 01:00:05.369
to help people from diverse backgrounds navigate

01:00:05.369 --> 01:00:08.909
rejection? and other personal or professional

01:00:08.909 --> 01:00:11.610
setbacks. What did you learn by really combining

01:00:11.610 --> 01:00:13.530
all of this knowledge that maybe you wouldn't

01:00:13.530 --> 01:00:16.210
otherwise have learned in your other works that

01:00:16.210 --> 01:00:21.429
you've done before that? Good question. What

01:00:21.429 --> 01:00:23.869
I'm finding is if once you enter the space of

01:00:23.869 --> 01:00:26.710
more thinking about systems and multiple systems,

01:00:26.730 --> 01:00:29.929
you know, colliding and creating the conditions

01:00:29.929 --> 01:00:31.969
for our experience of resilience, then you kind

01:00:31.969 --> 01:00:34.289
of open yourself to different ways of understanding

01:00:34.289 --> 01:00:38.739
the world. So what's success or failure in one

01:00:38.739 --> 01:00:43.559
context. I've traveled to, I think, over 80 countries

01:00:43.559 --> 01:00:48.639
in the world. I travel a lot. I have colleagues

01:00:48.639 --> 01:00:51.480
all over the globe. And I think the humility

01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:55.179
that that brings to say there is no one right

01:00:55.179 --> 01:01:00.380
way of doing things. And as a consequence of

01:01:00.380 --> 01:01:04.460
that, you're also, I think, saying to what failure

01:01:04.460 --> 01:01:10.480
means. and how people think about it. Is it a

01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:14.679
spiritual thing? Am I ill -fated because of something

01:01:14.679 --> 01:01:18.139
I've done and I need to exercise, not exercise,

01:01:18.280 --> 01:01:22.219
but exercise something out of me? Is it a spiritual

01:01:22.219 --> 01:01:24.900
problem that I'm experiencing versus a capacity

01:01:24.900 --> 01:01:27.420
problem, which I might think about in my world

01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:28.840
space, but other people might think of it as

01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:34.130
something very different? Is my you know other

01:01:34.130 --> 01:01:36.489
people are very fatalistic based on their ancestors

01:01:36.489 --> 01:01:39.190
or their karma or otherwise different concepts

01:01:39.190 --> 01:01:43.949
around the world appear so failure can be renamed.

01:01:45.550 --> 01:01:47.750
Many things depending on your religious views

01:01:47.750 --> 01:01:50.269
your spiritual views your cultural views and

01:01:50.269 --> 01:01:55.550
you know to just assume that. Failure means something

01:01:55.550 --> 01:01:59.780
always the same to me my space doesn't. I've

01:01:59.780 --> 01:02:01.400
learned that that's not always the case. I mean,

01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:05.440
we've had this conversation because we're occupying

01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:10.659
a certain relatively similar cultural space that

01:02:10.659 --> 01:02:13.039
you and I are occupying. But if this was on a

01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:15.099
global scale, and we have people from 80 different

01:02:15.099 --> 01:02:18.000
countries, then this conversation about both

01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.340
resilience but also about failure and embracing

01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:23.059
failure might take on a more spiritual tone or

01:02:23.059 --> 01:02:26.019
a more cultural tone or more something about

01:02:26.019 --> 01:02:29.380
our ancestors or something about the cosmos,

01:02:29.659 --> 01:02:36.360
something about nature, more of a historic lessons

01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:41.480
brought in. We might think in terms of seven

01:02:41.480 --> 01:02:44.340
generations, in terms of just myself and my parents.

01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:48.480
So all of those things would change how we approach

01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:51.219
which systems we are gonna bring in, which cultural

01:02:51.219 --> 01:02:55.570
systems, which family systems. which social systems,

01:02:56.070 --> 01:02:58.889
which cosmos, which ecological systems we're

01:02:58.889 --> 01:03:01.570
gonna engage with and think about are all going

01:03:01.570 --> 01:03:05.389
to contribute to our personal, very personal

01:03:05.389 --> 01:03:08.030
experience and the meaning we attribute to failure.

01:03:08.909 --> 01:03:11.829
So I often encourage people to think, remind

01:03:11.829 --> 01:03:14.510
yourself, what does this mean inside your family?

01:03:16.030 --> 01:03:19.070
And let's face it, for many newcomers, their

01:03:19.070 --> 01:03:21.730
first generation, it's been a common thread that,

01:03:22.650 --> 01:03:25.110
the child is expected to reach a certain level

01:03:25.110 --> 01:03:27.909
of success and that often means certain professionalism.

01:03:29.630 --> 01:03:32.869
That you know that that's not always great to

01:03:32.869 --> 01:03:35.050
to doesn't always serve the child but it's it's

01:03:35.050 --> 01:03:38.110
embedded in that particular cultural space and

01:03:38.110 --> 01:03:39.849
that's because the family system and the historic

01:03:39.849 --> 01:03:42.489
system and the history and you sitting down looking

01:03:42.489 --> 01:03:43.969
in the mirror and saying oh I'm a failure or

01:03:43.969 --> 01:03:46.469
I'm a success or what that exactly means it's

01:03:46.469 --> 01:03:48.690
like literally there are other people standing

01:03:48.690 --> 01:03:51.480
behind you in that mirror there are other cultures

01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:53.599
lined up around you. You were bubble wrapped

01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:58.380
inside other systems. Even the financial systems,

01:03:58.539 --> 01:04:01.219
even what, you know, the economic, social, political

01:04:01.219 --> 01:04:05.039
systems. And, you know, if you're in a war, do

01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:08.519
you, you don't necessarily, we're working on

01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:12.260
a big project right now with Ukrainian newcomers

01:04:12.260 --> 01:04:14.519
to Canada who are in Canada under a temporary

01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:16.920
visa program. And their understanding, young

01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:18.719
people's understandings of those experiences.

01:04:19.300 --> 01:04:21.739
And, you know, you just, you know, you think

01:04:21.739 --> 01:04:24.860
about school performance in a very different

01:04:24.860 --> 01:04:27.159
way if you're working in your third or fourth

01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:29.699
language and you've just come out of a traumatic

01:04:29.699 --> 01:04:33.239
past. So all of these systems, all these different

01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:37.599
experiences collide to define our experience

01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:40.500
of failure and what it means to, in a sense,

01:04:40.699 --> 01:04:43.199
come through that and be more resilient. And

01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:45.960
so I do think sometimes we just forget that we

01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:47.840
presented it all as if it's going to be the same

01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:50.599
for everybody. Maybe for your, you know, you

01:04:50.599 --> 01:04:52.760
should interview somebody from a culture that's

01:04:52.760 --> 01:04:57.960
very spirit driven to think what might failure

01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:02.900
mean from an indigenous perspective, what it

01:05:02.900 --> 01:05:06.719
might mean from a Hindu perspective. I just made

01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:08.000
that one. I don't know if there's any difference

01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:09.860
at all. I don't know much about the Hindu failure.

01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:14.349
Muslim. uh based on uh islamic texts um based

01:05:14.349 --> 01:05:18.630
on judaic texts uh whatever uh you know i i kind

01:05:18.630 --> 01:05:21.210
of romp around the world uh talk to a buddhist

01:05:21.210 --> 01:05:22.969
they might have a very different perspective

01:05:22.969 --> 01:05:25.750
on what this all means or indeed and they even

01:05:25.750 --> 01:05:28.210
that's implying the similarity a buddhist from

01:05:28.210 --> 01:05:31.150
napalm a buddhist from you know thailand might

01:05:31.150 --> 01:05:34.039
have a very very different story to tell uh,

01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:35.880
depending on what branch of Buddhism they, um,

01:05:35.940 --> 01:05:37.699
they adhere to. So, you know, again and again

01:05:37.699 --> 01:05:40.159
and again, I guess I look at all this complexity

01:05:40.159 --> 01:05:42.639
and celebrate it as opposed to challenge it,

01:05:42.659 --> 01:05:44.199
because I think what it does is it explains why

01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:46.559
people get through very difficult situations.

01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:50.460
Yeah. Thank you for the ideas. I should definitely

01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:52.940
look at different cultures, perspectives and

01:05:52.940 --> 01:05:55.119
how they define failure, what the rejection meant

01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:58.099
for them. Uh, we are soon nearing to the end

01:05:58.099 --> 01:06:01.019
and I just have two questions for you. The first

01:06:01.019 --> 01:06:03.179
one, what would you say are the key takeaways

01:06:03.179 --> 01:06:05.619
for our listeners on building resilience and

01:06:05.619 --> 01:06:08.239
handling rejection? And then the other one is

01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:10.119
about how do people connect with you learn more

01:06:10.119 --> 01:06:12.000
about your work? So I think the key takeaway

01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:14.019
here is just think about, you know, when you're

01:06:14.019 --> 01:06:16.300
experiencing rejection or failure, I think one,

01:06:16.380 --> 01:06:20.699
it's a should be a learning experience. And that,

01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:24.059
you know, your success is likely to depend on

01:06:24.059 --> 01:06:26.460
far more than just your own individual positive

01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:29.050
thinking. And that actually may be positive thinking

01:06:29.050 --> 01:06:31.550
as a trap that sometimes blinds us to the time

01:06:31.550 --> 01:06:35.030
that we need to change. So I'm really about our

01:06:35.030 --> 01:06:37.090
individual rugged qualities, meeting the resources

01:06:37.090 --> 01:06:41.429
around us to make us our best selves. And finding

01:06:41.429 --> 01:06:43.809
a space to explore that. And sometimes failure

01:06:43.809 --> 01:06:46.309
just points us in a new direction where we can

01:06:46.309 --> 01:06:52.250
be even a better self than we would be. And where

01:06:52.250 --> 01:06:54.550
can the people connect with you and learn more

01:06:54.550 --> 01:06:58.320
about your work they wanted to? Sure. Uh, well,

01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:01.940
they can always find me, uh, on line at, um,

01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:04.260
my website. Uh, yeah, they can always find me

01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:09.139
at Michael Ungar .com. It's easy there. I have

01:07:09.139 --> 01:07:10.860
a research website too, that some folks might

01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:14.400
be interested in, which is, uh, resilience research,

01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:19.800
all one word, uh, dot org or G. So that's a.

01:07:19.849 --> 01:07:22.210
We get lots and lots of traffic across that platform.

01:07:22.750 --> 01:07:25.090
And then my books and YouTube channel and all

01:07:25.090 --> 01:07:27.849
that kind of other stuff, you just type in Michael

01:07:27.849 --> 01:07:30.730
and Unger, that's U -N -G -A -R. Often people

01:07:30.730 --> 01:07:34.570
misspell it. But yeah, then a lot of these materials

01:07:34.570 --> 01:07:36.829
are open source. A lot of stuff and a lot of

01:07:36.829 --> 01:07:39.309
the books are there. But it's really, for me,

01:07:39.670 --> 01:07:41.309
it's being a voyage of trying to share these

01:07:41.309 --> 01:07:44.769
ideas as much as possible to shift the conversation

01:07:44.769 --> 01:07:49.869
of resilience into a more ecological sensitive,

01:07:49.869 --> 01:07:53.630
environmentally -sensitive idea. And I appreciate

01:07:53.630 --> 01:07:56.110
very, very much, Valeria, this opportunity to

01:07:56.110 --> 01:07:57.590
share some of these ideas, especially around

01:07:57.590 --> 01:08:01.030
this fun theme of, I say that fun, of knowing

01:08:01.030 --> 01:08:03.269
sometimes rejection is necessary for growth.

01:08:05.369 --> 01:08:09.130
It definitely is. I attest to that. But yeah,

01:08:09.349 --> 01:08:11.670
thank you so much, Michael, for joining me on

01:08:11.670 --> 01:08:15.219
the podcast today. been an incredible privilege

01:08:15.219 --> 01:08:17.180
to dive into your expertise on the important,

01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:20.260
but often undiscussed themes of rejection and

01:08:20.260 --> 01:08:23.520
resilience. And as Michael has shared, rejection

01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:25.840
isn't just about bouncing back, but it also lies

01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:28.119
in our ability to self -destruct and embrace

01:08:28.119 --> 01:08:30.659
occasional but much needed failure. By understanding

01:08:30.659 --> 01:08:33.359
how we can reframe challenges, we open ourselves

01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:35.460
to new opportunities, like you were saying, and

01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:38.090
paths that may have once maybe even seemed out

01:08:38.090 --> 01:08:40.130
of reach. So I encourage everyone to reflect

01:08:40.130 --> 01:08:42.329
on the practical tools Michael has shared today

01:08:42.329 --> 01:08:44.510
and remember that our struggles don't define

01:08:44.510 --> 01:08:46.770
us, they're merely stepping stones towards greater

01:08:46.770 --> 01:08:49.569
strength and personal or even professional growth.

01:08:49.970 --> 01:08:51.989
Resilience is not just a trait we're born with,

01:08:52.010 --> 01:08:55.609
it is skill we can all develop. Listeners, I'd

01:08:55.609 --> 01:08:57.350
love to hear your thoughts on today's episode,

01:08:57.510 --> 01:09:00.270
what resonated most with you and how do you cultivate

01:09:00.270 --> 01:09:02.090
resilience in your own life? Feel free to reach

01:09:02.090 --> 01:09:04.189
out on social media or suggest topics for future

01:09:04.189 --> 01:09:06.859
episodes. And if you'd like to support the podcast,

01:09:06.939 --> 01:09:10.760
you can donate at buymeacoffee .com. The link

01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:13.020
will be for that in the show notes and also for

01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:16.060
Michael's social media and all the website and

01:09:16.060 --> 01:09:18.279
all of that will also be in the show notes. This

01:09:18.279 --> 01:09:21.000
has been Valeria Rusnak, the host of the Rejected

01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:23.739
Pre -Med podcast. I thank you for tuning in and

01:09:23.739 --> 01:09:25.180
I'll see you next time.