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Hello everyone, welcome to the fifth episode of the Rejective Pre-Met podcast.

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This podcast offers guidance to those seeking to overcome rejection and transform perceived

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failures into opportunities for personal and professional growth.

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Hope you're all doing well and enjoying the fall weather.

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This episode I'm honored to be interviewing Richard Lee Tai, who is one impressive guy

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I would say.

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Richard is a TEDx speaker.

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He founded a brand and a business called Excuses to Connect, which is focused on building

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connections through one-on-one coaching, podcasting, public speaking, and so on.

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He also is a connection coach and is a faculty member at Rhodes Wellness College.

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Today, we will be discussing many things that will be of use to you covering topics such

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as rejection and sensitivity, the book called The Gap and the Gain, the work it can teach

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us about failure and rejection.

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And there will be very interesting topics we will talk about, but I won't get into them

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right now.

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So without further ado, thank you Richard for agreeing to appear on this podcast.

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Yeah, thank you Valeria for inviting me.

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I'm very excited.

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Yeah, me too.

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Yeah.

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How do you feel about doing today's episode?

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Yeah, I'm glad you started this podcast.

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Like as one of those things that are under discussed, even though many people will inevitably

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experience throughout their lifetime.

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I'm excited to dive into my personal experiences around it and then hopefully offer some resources

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for folks too.

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Thank you.

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Yeah.

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I guess I'll start with the first question.

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So you're now a connection coach and you have your own business and TED Talk and all,

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but not everybody knows that you're actually a talented musician as well.

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Can you tell a little bit about that and how that ties into the rest of your career background?

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Yeah, definitely.

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Because as a listener, you may be wondering like, okay, Richard's a coach or speaker,

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but how did he transition to that?

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So for music through, I was in junior high, I was in grade seven and we were part of the

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school band and we needed to pick an instrument.

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So I picked the flute.

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I did not have a lot of thought into why.

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I'm just like, I like it.

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But that band class ended up being very transformative for me because that's where I found a sense

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of community.

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Really, you know, math class or science class, whatever, it feels fine, but it's very different

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than in music or other types of art where you're creating something together to share

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with the world.

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And so that passion for music continued with me into high school as well.

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And then when I was about to graduate high school, I was thinking, okay, what do I want

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to study in university?

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My high school music teacher had been a very big role model for me and I realized, okay,

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I could see myself as an educator.

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I really liked being able to help other people and yeah, through the creative expression and

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community that comes with music.

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So that might be to applying to get into a Bachelor of Music program and education program.

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But the thing with that is you need to audition to get in.

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Yes, they also consider your transcript, your extracurriculars, but a large part of actually

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performing to a panel of professors and that's a large determiner of whether you get into

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that program.

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Wow, okay.

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Yeah.

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And that was very nerve wracking because I had no formal music training.

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There were other students, for example, that had been taking private one-on-one lessons

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growing up and going on stage and performing very often, but my only experience had been

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with the school band.

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So by the time I did that audition, which was, you know, 10 minutes of me playing as

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a soloist, like with a piano player as well, but it was very vulnerable and exposed because

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if you make a mistake, everyone can hear it.

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It's very different than if you're in a band and sort of shielded from that.

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So, you know, I did my audition and I did not get accepted.

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Like I got an email a few weeks later that I was not accepted in that program, which

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was challenging for me because up until that point, I would say that school has been fairly

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easy for me and I don't mean it in a bragging way.

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I just feel like I was that type of person to be very high achieving.

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But this is the first time that I'm like, oh, I didn't get into something that I wanted,

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that I thought I would be able to get into.

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I understand.

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Yeah, right.

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I know.

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But thankfully, I was still able to take first year classes, like some of the other music

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majors were taking, and I could re-audition again in the following year, like when I came

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to that admission season again.

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So I did audition again.

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So same type of scenario, you prepare music and you perform to panel professors.

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I also did not get into the second time either.

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And looking back, I can see the reason why it's not like I found a teacher and started

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taking lessons and practicing more seriously and getting more performance experience.

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So after I was rejected for the second time, I'm like, okay, Richard, if you're still serious

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about pursuing this career in music education, you need to invest in yourself and find a

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teacher and work up your skills.

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So I did end up finding a flute teacher and started taking weekly lessons and performing

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like once a month or so too.

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And again, it was very challenging because I had a lot of performance anxiety.

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I would dread going up onto stage and the way that my anxiety manifested itself is like

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my lips would shake and I'd have very like shallow breathing and all that.

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And so it's very obvious when you're playing an instrument like the flute and it felt like

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I was out of control.

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Like I didn't have any, you know, I would make a mistake if I would have like this downward

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spiral in my mind and just it's down from there.

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But you know, going through all that difficult performances and lessons, I feel like did help

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me prepare better and good advice.

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My teacher did give me just don't put all your eggs in one basket.

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Like at that time I was trying to get into University of Calgary, but she recommended

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maybe you should look into auditioning for multiple schools in case you don't get in.

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And I took that advice to heart.

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So I did audition at the University of Calgary for a third time and also auditioned at the

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University of Lethbridge for the first time.

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So, thankfully I did that because I got rejected again from University of Calgary, but I was

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accepted into the program I wanted at University of Lethbridge.

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So that prompted my move there and then, yeah, sparked a lot of other things in my life as

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you might know of like the issues around loneliness and how I wanted to do more, you know, advocacy

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to help people know how to connect better.

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But yeah, that's in a nutshell that sort of musical journey.

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And the key lesson I would say I learned from all that throughout my music program in University

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too is that your self-worth doesn't have to be determined by how well you perform.

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Because really that was the root of my performance anxiety because I put so much pressure or expectations

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on myself that, you know, when I fail to live up to that expectation I have for myself, I

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feel like I'm not good enough or let myself down or, you know, I'm very harsh or self-critical.

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And if you have a mindset that of course I'm going to dread every performance.

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Of course, like it feels like it's so high pressure.

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But realizing that I put that pressure on myself and it can be different.

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So yeah, in a nutshell, I mean, there's lots of different strands you could explore with

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this.

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But yeah, that's part of my musical rejection journey.

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No, thank you for sharing that.

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It's just, I've been hearing this quote a lot recently.

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It's saying rejection is redirection and your story is such an example of that.

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The fact that you did not get into the desired program at U of C you've said, University

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of Calgary.

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Yeah.

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It just led you to so many great things and you probably helped so many people by being

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a coach.

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Life can lead us in so many unexpected different directions and it can be so exciting.

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And when all of that came from you not getting accepted, which initially feels horrible, probably.

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And I love the main takeaway that you have for this, that self-worth should not be defined

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by your performance as an overachiever.

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So easy to kind of place all your, all your worth and like what you think you're capable

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of on your accomplishments.

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And that is so not true.

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And a lot of the difficulty comes from the pressure we place in ourselves.

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So kind of realizing for us to do the inner work and let go of that pressure from ourselves

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and then kind of from there, we can start living our life more freely and with more peace

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and more happiness.

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And yeah.

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And I guess one other question is every time you did not get accepted, what did you

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feel and how did you cope with those feelings?

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What motivated you to keep applying?

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Yeah.

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What an interesting time of my life.

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It's been a few years now like that is going through.

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Like I've graduated from university at this point now.

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But yeah, I remember leading up to my auditions like 13 nights where I couldn't really even

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go to sleep.

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Like I was thinking, I was like literally watching videos of like, how do you deal with

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performance anxiety?

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And then like give all these tips, even I remember when I was doing my performing, yeah, trying

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to like meditate and like call my breathing, kind of safe.

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But inevitably, like it's still like my auditions or my performances in general would feel like

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didn't go well until I got to the root issue.

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But yeah, following those rejections, especially in this case where there's only like one audition

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period per year, like, fucks because then I need to wait a whole another year to apply

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again to try to get in.

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And it also made me feel like I'm falling behind of my other peers that, you know, were accepted

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and then get to progress through their program in their four years or five years.

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I'm like, okay, this is this might be extending my degree even more.

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I keep not being able to get in and times passing by.

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So definitely there's a lot of those types of feelings and like inferiority to of like,

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you know, I wasn't good enough and by other people, you know, were able to get in.

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I guess to try to answer your questions succinctly, there's a few steps or things to like processing

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emotion.

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One is just being able to sit with it and acknowledge it.

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And you know, if I feel sad or angry or resentful or whatever to be able to just allow my body

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to process it, whether through talking with other people or journaling or so on.

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And then I think when, you know, those emotions have subsided or you've been able to process

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those more and then it's what actions can I take from here?

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What learnings can I gain from this that might inform me or help me get into what I want

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in the future?

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So as I was saying before, like when I was going through those rejections, I did eventually

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realize like I actually need to invest into getting formal training and more performance

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experience to get into what I want to do.

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Yeah.

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So in my previous episode, I talked about resilience and how emotional regulation is

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a big part of that.

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And like you, I said the three steps, I mean, they're not easy at all, but in steps, it's

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like acknowledge emotions, welcome the emotions, manage the emotions.

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You can't manage an emotion you don't allow yourself to have.

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So yeah, thank you for saying that.

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It helps me to hear that you find that the same thing helps you that helped me and hopefully

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will help other people kind of framing it in that way.

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Yeah.

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I agree because unless those emotions are, as you said, acknowledged and welcome, then

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it's still, you've just bottled it up or you're in the state of turmoil that you can't think

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because those emotions are still hijacking your system.

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You feel like you're still in this fight or fight or like this threat response mode, rather

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than processing it and then being in a calm, mature, rational state to figure out what do

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you want to do next?

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Yeah.

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Thank you for sharing your story.

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It's not easy talking about rejection, personal rejection.

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Like I know, because I do that every time I record an episode and it's not easy.

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So I appreciate you sharing about that story of your life.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I feel like at this point, I've been able to process it.

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If you were doing this interview years ago, I think it'd be much more raw.

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But now at this point, just being able to see that rejection is just a part of life

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because the things we really want to accomplish in life take some effort and take some risk.

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And when you have risk, that means sometimes it'll be a yes and sometimes it'll be a no.

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But it's better to pursue that than wonder later on and have these regrets of like,

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wish I had done that, but now I don't have the opportunity to do that anymore.

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So I'd rather take these risks and risk rejection rather than wonder or live with the weight

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of regret on what could have been.

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Yeah.

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And that's a great way to put it.

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Like for me, I was rejected from medical school and not get in.

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And like you said, I don't want to rule it out completely because it has been part of my life for so long,

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but it does make me wonder maybe I should explore other things.

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So yeah, but there is this component to it.

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Like don't completely rule out the thing you were rejected from.

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Like try again, not now, then later, because, you know, at one point in your life,

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you might regret that feeling of rejection, even though it stings,

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that it kind of pushed you away from it completely and you don't want to have that regret.

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So yeah, thanks for saying that.

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I guess now we can switch gears a little bit as a connection coach.

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You have an expert lens on rejection sensitivity.

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Can you introduce the concept of rejection sensitivity and is there a way you notice

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that it shows up in your life?

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How do we know that it's happening?

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Yeah, definitely.

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So rejection sensitivity is a term that I wish I had learned much earlier on,

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but rejection sensitivity is this condition where people feel much for like intense reaction

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when it comes to rejection.

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And where this can develop from is it's from your upbringing, your childhood environment.

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So imagine a kid where, you know, their parents blame their kid for something.

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You know, their parents get upset and then they tell the kids like, oh, it's your fault for making you upset.

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And of course, as a kid, we're going to try to protect ourselves.

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We're going to try to find whatever type of coping mechanism will allow us to survive in this type of situation.

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And so what that kid starts learning is that they need to be hyper vigilant of other people's moods.

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You know, anything they say or do could potentially set off their parents.

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And so it's now they're like walking on eggshells and they try to be invisible because they don't want to be yelled at.

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And they feel like it's their fault that their parents are upset.

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And so you start developing that type of rejection sensitivity where you learn or you even anticipate like,

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I'm always going to be rejected and it's like, it's about to happen at some point.

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So I need to be very aware of this.

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And then what can also happen is sensitivity that very into adulthood, too,

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where you start interpreting neutral stimuli as negative.

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The core example for this, say you text someone and they don't message you back.

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Someone with rejection sensitivities immediately going to jump to the conclusion that this person is not texting me back because they hate me or they don't like me.

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Even though that might not be the case, because if you think of it, someone not responding to you really is just a neutral stimulus,

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but you've jumped to the worst case scenario because you just developed this expectation that you're going to be rejected.

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And then when people with rejection sensitivity are put into these situations where they feel uncertain,

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then they might also overreact.

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Like what could be a small feeling like they did something wrong can blow up to like, oh, I'm so sorry.

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Like they'll profusely apologize for what might just be a small scenario,

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which sadly or ironically can lead to damaging the relationship more because that other person might see like, oh, like Richard's such a handful.

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Like he overreacted to this very small thing and now has all these big emotions that sort of are blown out of proportion for the scenario it's in.

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So it's challenging, but when I was listening to this podcast, I realized, okay, how many people have some level of rejection sensitivity,

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which again is a self protective mechanism that we developed as children, but doesn't fully serve us or can hinder us in adulthood.

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Because if you're always expecting to be rejected, if you're overreacting and if you're interpreting this neutral stimuli as negative,

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it's really going to hold you back in your career and in your relationships.

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And that's one part, like just understanding what it is.

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The other part is like, okay, what do you do about this if you have this or you resonate with this?

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Some steps to take is just being able to feed your brain new data.

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Because just having the awareness that someone with rejection sensitivity is like, you're still behaving or drawing from the same conclusions you had as a child.

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But as an adult, you are mature, more mature and have more opportunities.

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So you can test for yourself.

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It's like, when I go into, let's say, a social situation, my brain's telling me it's like on this like red alert, it's like, I'm going to be rejected and all that.

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But is that actually true?

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When you go to interact with people, like are they, you know, out there to just reject you?

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Not necessarily.

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And so you're able to feed your brain more and more data than it helps to update that conclusion that you've drawn from childhood to something that's more accurate to reality.

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And in that case, where I say like, say you text someone, they don't text you back.

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Instead of jumping to the conclusion that they didn't text me back because they don't like me.

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Ask yourself, what are other possibilities for how I can interpret this?

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Because you really don't know.

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Like that person might have not seen the message or they might have seen the message and intended to reply, but then they forgot to hit send, which has happened to me before, or they might have just gone busy with other things.

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So everyone has their own lives going on too.

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But you don't have to jump to that worst case scenario.

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And then with that overreaction piece, if you notice that you want to, you know, overreact,

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similar to what you're saying about emotional regulations, like, can you actually just sit with that emotion a bit first and allow it to rest and subside before you choose how you want to respond?

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So that's in a nutshell, rejection sensitivity.

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There's a lot more to it and has been linked to other types of conditions to like the people with ADHD or autism, I believe.

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But I think it's just as a general concept because you can't necessarily be diagnosed with rejection sensitivity.

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Or it's not a condition that a lot of doctors or medical professionals are aware of.

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I guess, like you said, it's just about being mindful of your thought processes and not jumping through the worst case scenario.

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And then, and this is kind of related to it and maybe it could help people dealing with rejection and rejection and sensitivity.

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You mentioned to me at TED Talk about a person who intentionally went out to be rejected over a span of 100 days.

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Yeah, can you can you talk about that?

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It's just fascinating to me.

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It's just amazing if someone would do that.

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Yeah, it's a great TED Talk.

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So the name of the speaker, his name is Jia Zhang.

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And the reason he set out for this is similar to my life experience where it's like rejection or the fear of rejection can be very paralyzing.

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Because again, you're taking this risk and our minds are really good at evaluating risk or trying to avoid it.

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It's like, okay, that thing is not worth my effort.

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So I'm just not going to do it.

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I'm just going to avoid it and protect myself.

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But that can lead to a life that's very stagnant and that we don't really pursue the things that we truly want.

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And so the speaker talks about how he wanted to expose himself to more rejection.

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And this is a concept or like a proven monoline comes to therapy.

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When you gradually expose yourself to that fear, then again, you're feeding your brain new data to update.

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Like, is this actually as bad as I predicted?

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And so he came up with a list of 100 different items or actions he could take where he likely be rejected.

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One of my favorite ones on this list is he went to a pizza shop and he asked the owner if he could deliver a pizza.

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Even though he doesn't work there at all, he just showed up to a random pizza place and asked that.

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And the owner's like, no, you can't do that.

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So, you know, what he learned is like, okay, as you hear these no's, you learn to process it differently now that it's not this like devastating thing.

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It's like, okay, I was rejected. That's okay.

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You celebrate it and then you move on and you try other things.

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And sometimes he would get yeses too.

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So yeah, that's the core of this TED Talk.

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But I feel like it's very applicable in our own lives too that whatever you define success to be like success doesn't come without failure too.

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No successful person out there that didn't also have a lot of these challenges that they had to overcome in this.

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So it's not the absence of failure or the absence of rejection.

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It's more so how do you respond and move forward from those.

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But yeah, I think that TED Talk, that's the general premise of it.

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And it's worth listening to. I think it has millions of views.

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Yeah. And then there's also the book called The Gap and the Game.

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And you know quite a few things about it and the concepts that are introduced there.

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What practical tips from the book could you share with us?

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And how to deal with those feelings of inadequacy and lack and take proactive steps to help yourself come further?

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Yeah, for sure. So the interesting thing about this book is it's intended for high achievers.

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So the book, as you mentioned, is called The Gap and the Game.

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The authors are Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy.

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If you as a listener want to search that up, I'll explain the core concept of the book first and then get some practical steps to take.

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So The Gap and the Game refers to two different types of mindsets that a person can be in.

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A person that's in a gap mindset is measuring between where they currently are and their ideal self.

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So for instance, let's say your ideal self, you wanted to get into med school or even projecting longer than that to what you envision your career as a medical professional would be like.

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Or in my case, you know, getting into my music program.

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And so that's the idealized version of yourself.

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The reason it's a gap mindset is because you're constantly measuring or comparing between where you're at.

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Like I'm here, but I'd like to be there.

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So it makes you feel like you're falling short or behind because, you know, that gap that's there.

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Interestingly, high achievers or high performers can feel this gap mindset a lot because it actually does fuel them

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to take more action and like, oh, I need to work harder.

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I need to try again and all that, which just drive them to take more action.

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But the key thing is here, what are the emotions surrounding that?

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Like when you're in a gap mindset, it constantly feels like you're feeling you're frustrated, you're disappointed because you're not where you want to be.

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You feeling you're not good enough, like they're falling short and behind.

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And so the alternative to this when we talk about a gain mindset is you're measuring between your current self and your past self.

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So instead of measuring against your ideal self, you're measuring against your past self, you're measuring backwards.

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Think about where you were a year ago or three years ago, whatever time frame you want to pick.

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But just bring that back up of like, OK, what age was I?

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What was I doing at that time?

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Who did I know in my life?

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And so on.

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And then ask yourself, OK, in that period of time, like three years ago, compared to now, what have I learned that I didn't know before?

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What are those achievements or milestones or significant life experience I've had in the last three years?

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Who are people that I have in my life now that I didn't have before who are like relationships that I've deepened over those three years?

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As you start to think about those, you recognize that actually you've come much further than you thought before, more than you've given yourself credit.

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And so you see how much you gained over time.

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So it's this constant process of being able to celebrate the steps that you've taken and celebrate the effort that you put in.

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Because it's very easy, especially again, for high achievers to have this mindset where you've achieved something and then your mind's already onto the next thing.

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You're already still chasing or trying to hustle for that self worth without really recognizing and savoring and acknowledging how far you've come in, what you have accomplished and celebrating yourself for that.

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So in a nutshell, that's the gap in the game mindset.

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I like giving examples when I share this concept to people.

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So there's a study done with Olympic athletes that were placed on a podium.

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So like the bronze, silver and gold medalists and what the researchers were interested in seeing is like, okay, based on analyzing their facial expressions, like who seems happy placing on the podium.

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So what they found is the gold medalists, you know, they were happy that they achieved their goal, like they achieved their ideal self, let's say.

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The bronze medalists were also happy because in their mind, they're thinking, well, I could have placed four for lower.

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I could have not made it on the podium in the first place.

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But the silver medalists are the most unhappy because what's going through their mind is I was so close to getting first and I fell short.

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I fell behind of where I wanted to be.

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So in this example, again, it illustrates that person is in a gap mindset, which is crazy to think about because if you saw it from the lens of a game mindset, objectively, they are the top second athlete in the world in that sport.

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But in that moment, subjectively, they don't see it that way.

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And like how many times in our life, again, now that you're aware of this concept, are we evaluating or comparing ourselves to this ideal self and feeling like we're in this gap versus taking some time,

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which it takes active conscious effort is a skill to learn how to celebrate yourself and recognize those gains that you have in any circumstance.

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Because even in rejection, as you're saying, pivoting or redirection, those are gains, but we have to consciously reflect on those and see those of like, what did I gain from these circumstances?

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Yeah, what I do, because I struggle with this as well.

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It's like, I always kind of think about my next goal, and whenever I achieve it, it's like, okay, now it's achieved.

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And I don't feel like anything I don't even celebrate.

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I mean, that was my initial reaction to it.

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But now I do try to be more intentional and celebrate whatever I have achieved, no matter how big or small.

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I drink a bottle of water during the day.

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Before I didn't drink water as much.

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So and I even have notes around my room that says like, give yourself credit along the way, quite your mind or something like that.

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They kind of serve as a reminder to kind of relax and give yourself credit and celebrate even what seems like a micro action to you.

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That's what I call micro action.

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Yeah, expand on this a bit too.

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Because one of the stories they tell in this book is so the authors, they run a company where they coach entrepreneurs like very high level entrepreneurs.

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And they were being taught this concept of the gap in the game.

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And the coach asked the entrepreneurs, like, could you raise your hand if you're happy with the amount of money you're making right now?

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And none of them raised their hands because, you know, entrepreneurs, they want to be able to build more.

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But, you know, let's say there's someone in the room, like their company is making like $500,000 a year, and yet they still didn't raise their hand.

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Once he explained this concept of the gap and the gain to them, he asked them to think back to the time when you're making $0.

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How happy would you have been to be making like, you know, your first sale or your first $100, your first $1,000.

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And yet you're sitting here telling me like you're making $500,000 and you're still not happy with that.

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Because again, it shows how pervasive this gap mindset can be because the goal post in a way is always moving, right?

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Because, you know, as you said yourself, like once you achieve something, your mind's already on to that next goal.

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So the way the coach framed this for them is what you have now or the life that you have now, perhaps is what your younger self dreamed of.

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If you think about your younger self, depending on the goals you've set, like maybe it's like, oh, it'd be so cool to have like a university degree one day,

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or be able to work a job or have this type of life experience, it's not crazy against like your younger self.

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So desperately wanted these things.

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They dreamed of these things and you might already have these things right now, but you just don't recognize it for that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, we might already be living out the lives that our younger selves were dreaming of.

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It's one way to look and consider this.

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I'll say the other concept that comes to my mind too is giving yourself some allowance for failure and rejection,

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especially in the minds of high achievers.

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I think it can be this like all or nothing type of mindset of like, you know, I should be perfect.

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I should be achieving all these things.

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But one thing one of my business advisors said to me, for example, is if you achieve 100% of the goals you're setting, you're not setting ambitious enough goals.

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So you're actually trying to be rejected and you're trying to get more failures by setting more ambitious goals.

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So you might even be aiming towards like of the things that I do, I want to be rejected 15% of the time because that means I'm actually taking substantial risks and putting myself out there for the things I'm doing, which again, seems like it's so counterintuitive or a very different way of thinking than perhaps how we've been raised or socialized.

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You're actually trying to get a failure, like I'm trying to get rejected 10% or 15% of the time because that means you're actually doing substantial things that require risk.

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So yeah, those are some different ways to look at this topic of rejection because I think it helps reframe it from something that feels so, you know, crushing or devastating into something that's more neutral and productive and yeah, like it's still okay to have goals, by the way,

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I think that's the thing I want to clarify with this gap in gamebook, but it's still like recognizing how far you've come in celebrating your games and also having the realization that by definition, your ideal self is not achievable.

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It's always on the horizon. It's this ideal. We're never going to be always able to live out to 100% of our ideal self. It shouldn't be your sole focus, because then you're always going to feel like you're falling behind a bit.

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Yeah, you've touched on so many, so many topics. So thank you for that. But is there anything else you would like to share before we finish up and what are the main takeaways you want listeners to get from our conversation?

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I'll say, you know, what we've been talking about today of course is like can be easier said than done, especially going back to that topic of rejection sensitivity where you might already have certain behavioral thought patterns have been ingrained into you and reinforced for years and years.

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So recognizing that's not necessarily just going to change overnight, like these, you know, your automatic or default behavior that comes up or your feelings that come up when you experience rejection, but I think it does start with this awareness piece.

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So it's my hope that like if you listen to this podcast and you learn something new and you have this new awareness that now you're just 1% or like one degree more informed and wise for how you can approach these things.

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Because I'll say for me too, there's still times where I feel imposter syndrome and feel self doubt and feels bad when I get criticism or rejection, because it's just a human thing. It's normal.

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Yeah, we don't have to still operate with the same conclusions that were drawn from childhood, whether it's with regards to rejection or many other types of things we can deal with.

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As an adult now you can take responsibility to unlearn things you can pick and choose which are the types of beliefs and behaviors that do serve you and which are ones that might need some updating and trying out.

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So yeah, one of my most impactful books that I've read is Daring Greatly by Brinay Brown. So I'm a big fan of Brinay Brown's work. She also has a TEDx talk about the importance of vulnerability and how do we cope or reconcile with shame.

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The same as this core feeling of we're not good enough or we're unworthy or undeserving of love and validation and so on.

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Why this book is called Daring Greatly is it's a quote from a longer speech. It's this idea of like getting into the arena, like being able to risk vulnerability and you know getting punched and hurt and so on and still being able to get back up.

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Because it doesn't really matter like people that are sitting in the sidelines of the arena they can say all those things, you know, like back seating of like this is what you should do and so on.

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But really the people I respect or should be respected I think are people that are also in the arena willing to take risks and be rejected and get hurt and get back up because like you have some skin in the game you're actually doing these things.

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So yeah, have the courage to step into the arena and try these things and yes, you're going to get knocked down sometimes, but I think the things that we really want in life again takes some level of risk and learning how to cope with rejection is a skill that's

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available. Yeah, thank you. Very great message and last question. Where can the listeners connect with you or learn more about your work? Yeah, definitely. So what I like to see when I'm a guest on podcasts is like now that you've listened to this, this is an excuse to connect.

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Like, certainly if you choose to message me later, which I'm open to, like, oh, I listened to this episode, or I don't know what episode number this is going to be, but I listened to this episode with malaria and Richard and I really resonated when you share this story or this concept.

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So that's my encouragement to listeners. You can find me on social media. So LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram through my name Richard Lee tie.

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You can also have a website which is excuses to connect.com. If you search up excuses to connect on my name, my TEDx talk will also come up which is published onto the TEDx YouTube channel and you can have a watch too.

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Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all this valuable knowledge of yours and for being so open about your experience. We have covered so much good stuff in this episode, and I hope you as a listener can take something from here and apply to your life.

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And that rejection is only a redirection. You decide what it means for your life. I would love to hear from all of you listening what you like about this episode and what topics you want me to cover in a few trips.

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So please message me on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn to share your insights. This was Bella Rissnak, the host of the rejected treatment podcast, and I thank you for listening.