Hello everyone, welcome to the rejected pre-med podcast. This is a podcast for those who like
me got rejected from medical school and are now trying to figure out what next steps to take
and how to stay happy and peaceful in the process. In this episode, I'm honored to be interviewing
Dr. Elaine Goutier who's a family physician and he practices anesthesia in Perth, Ontario, Canada.
Interestingly enough, Dr. Elaine actually had to apply to medical school seven times before he got in
and this is what we'll be talking about today. So Dr. Elaine, welcome. Thank you for coming here today.
How do you feel about doing this episode? I think it's going to be an interesting thing to do.
Like you said, applying seven years in a row, I think it sometimes shows that people need a lot
of perseverance and have to try again and again before they get to their goal, their life goal
and the reason why they want to become a doctor. So I think there's something to say about trying
multiple times. For sure. Yes, I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this. So
let me begin by first asking you, how did you figure out you wanted to be a doctor and not
anything else considering how hard it is to get into medicine? So I guess a little background
from me. So I was born in Quebec in a small town where there's a lot of good cultural stuff. So I
was raised on a actually a pig farm and a mink farm. So I was always interested in sort of at the
beginning more so like vet school and things like that. And of course, vet school is a little bit
even more hard to get in. But after I got to sort of my teen years, I thought I shifted my interest
from animals to humans because they're a lot more interesting. And so that's probably when I started
thinking of medical school. And then I got to do my CJ in French, which is basically great
13 and first year of university. And because I had a lot of interest in human physiology,
I applied to McGill. And at that time, they were the only sort of biology program that was focusing
on human physiology. So that was the program that interested me the most. But at the same time,
it's the program that sort of challenged me and sort of got me on a long path to get into
into med school. So I remember going to McGill on the first day and starting sort of a general
biology class in Europe, 300 in a class, and the Dean of sort of medicine or the Dean of biology
comes and says, Well, you know, there's 300 of you. At the end of this one semester, there'll be 150
of you. And at the end of the year, there'll be 75 of you. So obviously, going from French to English,
and not having any real learning in English before that, and it made it very challenging.
And was probably the toughest year of my life. And obviously, my grades weren't what they had been
before. And because of that, it was harder to sort of kind of up hill to be finally accepted at one
point in medicine. So that was the challenge I made for myself. But also, the reason why it took me
a little while to get in med school. Yeah, and not saying that it's the same experience, but myself
being an immigrant, I remember even though it's a completely different experience, this is me talking
about being in middle school. I didn't know any English whatsoever. And even then, it was hard
for me to just learn how to speak English. I think it took me two years to even start getting A's.
And this was middle school. So I can only imagine what it was like at the level you were at,
transitioning from French to English. Absolutely. That was very challenging.
But the physiology was so interesting to me that I sort of got through the first year of calculus,
all of the courses that you have to do organic chemistry, all that or not really interesting,
but you have to go through. And so I think it was after at the end of my bachelor's, which was
about the third year that I thought of, okay, now I want to really apply to medical school.
So I applied to the three French medical school in Quebec. And that didn't go too well. I applied
to the three French schools because they didn't require DMCATs in those days. So I thought maybe
I have a better chance. And then I figured out I was very naive. I didn't know how the system
worked. So I didn't know that well, if you wanted to apply to an English school, then you needed
to do DMCAT. So then, okay, I tried DMCAT, probably didn't do that well. And then I thought, okay,
I'm not going to get in that way. So I brought things up to Miguel to the Ontario schools,
then I applied again. It didn't work. And then I wanted to continue with my physiology. So I then
got into a PhD program. I did a PhD at Miguel in respiratory physiology,
managed to have some good collaboration and good publications. And once I got my degree,
then I managed to get some interviews. And that's when I got accepted.
That's great. Thank you for that breakdown. And it seemed like such a twisted long path. And you
must have been very, well, and you are still very determined, ambitious. Well, now doctor.
Yeah, yeah, every year, it was a bit of a hardship. But I knew that was my goal. And also I must
admit that I always had great support system from my parents. And I don't need a support system from
financial means or things like that. But it was more sort of an emotional support that they were
always there, especially my mom. And I remember at the end of my PhD, when I had to really sit down
and do my thesis, basically what I did is I went home. I was in sort of the RV that my parents
at the time. And my mom said, just sit down, do your work. Don't worry, we're going to bring you
food. We're going to sort of do all the things you need to do. Just focus and do it. And it basically
was the reason why I managed to sort of, especially towards the end, when it was getting more
difficult just to finish it. And then thesis went well. And after that, I did the applications and
got four or five interviews. And I will always remember the one in Toronto, which is the one that
I went to is I was at the corner of college and Queen Street. I was listening to my little music.
It was when you two came up with one of my favorite albums. I just put on my music,
focused on the music, went in my interview and came out and I knew I nailed it. What song was it?
Oh, so it was a U2 Actoon Baby. And yes, it was just, I knew I was going to get it.
A right song, a right soundtrack can do so many things for us.
Yes, I guess the point of that is it was a long road, but I think the focus was always
on doing it and having the persistence to every single year, try a little bit broader,
try to add things to my CV. And also realizing that that path, and I think that's one of the
key messages I think I want to focus on is that that path is not a wasted path. If you're going
to get there and you think you want to be there at the end, even if the path will be curved and long
and you really want it, I think, and you want to pursue it, I think that's,
it's not a waste of time to get there. It's all experience that you build. It's all
things that make a person's character built and those are all things that are important along the
way. So and one of the other things I really like that you said is the key is to lean into your
emotional support, because would you agree that if it wasn't for your mom, for example, or other
people close to you, would you be able to apply so many times and keep that resilience going?
Absolutely not. I think it was a key thing for me. I hope that your listeners all have
the same support, because it was so important that when I finished my PhD, it was also sort of
in the mix of a breakup. And my mom was really there. And it was one of the things that actually
made me continue. But it also is one of the things I always try to remember that
that wherever I am in life now, it's not just because of me. And it's because of the support.
And if you think that you're only got where you are, because of the people that help you,
I think it will keep you sort of humble, first of all, also thankful for who got you there.
No one gets there just by themselves. If you remember that, I think you will respect,
hopefully, the privilege that will be granted to you one day to become a doctor. And it is a privilege.
And if you remember that you got there because people help you, and if you remember that you got
there because it's a privilege, I think it will be better that way. And I think it's a privilege
to be able to get there. I hope that for most people that it takes a while, it will make them
see it as a privilege. If you get in easily, you think they're a big shot. You think you're all it.
You don't think you owe anyone. You think you got it just because you're so good.
That's not a good philosophy to be a doctor that will help other people.
Right. And when you finally got in, describe how did you feel? And which school did you get into?
So I got into University of Calgary, McGill, Montreal. So I got in a few. I didn't get in
any of their French schools. And I chose Toronto because I wanted to get away from McGill because
I had been there for so many years. I wanted to get a bit of a change in my life. So I got in a
few. I didn't go to Calgary because they had a three-year program and no summer breaks. And
after doing a five-year PhD, I thought, okay, that's going to kill me. Toronto was a nice change.
So I chose Toronto. I was just going to you for a minute here. So talking about the long path and
how the long path is sometimes actually, you don't realize it at that time because you're in it,
you're emotionally disappointed. But the long path that took me seven years is what brought me to
meeting my wife. Okay, so here's a little story. So you're in the class of 175 people. You don't
know anyone. It's the first day you sit down and then you sort of start chatting and there's a lady
just beside me. And I say, well, I, are you start chatting a little bit and she says, oh, you have
a French accent. Or you are a language. And I say, wow, how do you know that? Well, we're going to be
in a small group of six people doing dissection and doing sort of community things. I said, okay,
that's good. So we do about a few months of school together. We're sort of close because we're in a
small group of six. And then a little bit later, she sort of wants to get a little bit more involved.
So now we're married. And we have five kids. Hi. It's 15 to 24. So the point of that is
the path was long. And there was a reason meeting my wife. Yeah, all things happen in divine timing.
And I've heard that a lot recently. So your story shows that it's true. That's the thing. So when
you're not getting accepted, there's probably a reason. There's probably a reason. And at the time
you don't know. And who knows for your listeners or you, it could be a story similar to mine.
Yeah, no, thank you. It's very encouraging to hear that. And I know I needed to hear that. And
and are the listeners of the podcast probably would do benefit from hearing this as well.
And you kind of you kind of answered this question already. But what would you tell your
younger self who was going through this growing process of applying to medical school?
Yeah, I think I think so. Yeah, so the persistence is, I think, good. I think
life is not a straight path for anyone. And I think it's getting probably even more and more
complicated as the number of applicants per number of people being accepted is the ratios
probably even worse than in my days. So you got to enjoy the path along the way. There's probably
some good reasons for that. And I guess the other message is at the core, you have to ask yourself
why do you want to do medicine? And I think the core has to be sort of a real reason and not
pressure from outside factors. And outside factors could be things like parents that are thinking,
well, maybe in our culture, if you were a doctor, you would be sort of look at someone that has
prestige or that has status. That's not a good reason. And I know that in certain cultures,
that may be a reason. And that's not a good reason to me anyway. So that's one. The second one is
if people think that you're going to be a doctor and you're going to be rich or financially,
well, that's again, not an ugly reason because at three in the morning when you're getting up
because you're on call or because you're going to do this or you got to do this,
there's basically no money that's worth that. That's the final reason to do it.
And it has to be really a personal reason. Outside pressures or money are not a good reason
to become a doctor. You have to figure out why you want to do it. Because these days,
these days being a doctor, it's not a 40 hour per week job. For most people, it's easily a 50 or 60
hours at multiple times with multiple pressures with multiple demands. So you got to really find
that it's going to be your passion and that you're going to do a lot of sacrifice for that job. It's
a privilege, but it entails a lot of sacrifices. So you got to make sure that you're doing it for
the right reason. That's probably what I would tell myself about. And unfortunately, I was on the
right path for that. And for saying it's a sacrifice, does that go for each specialty? Because I know
there's different rules for each specialty like family medicine is one thing. Let's say podiatry
is like a whole other thing. So yeah, is it different rules for each specialty? Or you think
it's kind of a rule that applies to each specialty, at least in 2024? I honestly don't think that
there's any specialty that is easy. I think every specialty has a fair amount of challenges. But I
cannot see psychiatry or pediatrician or cardiologists or heart surgeons. I look at all my
colleagues, they work hard and they really, really are caring for their patients and they
constantly sacrifice their work, being really passionate about it. The ones that I think I see
fail over time. And there are some are the ones that I don't think were in medicine for the right
reasons. And most of them are the ones that I see that are because they're in it for the money.
And those ones, first of all, it frustrates me a little bit that they got in because I don't think
they're in for the right reason because they took someone else's position, I think. But also, I think
in the long run, they're not necessarily happy. Yeah. And it's good that you mentioned all of that
because as soon as you started talking about the culture piece, for example, I know that as soon
as I claimed when I was what 13, 14 years old, I think I had this fleeting thought, okay, now
I'll be a doctor and my parents really approved of that. And I fed off that approval. And now part
of me kind of got rejected this first cycle. And now I kind of start reflecting a little bit thinking,
okay, did I kind of internalize their approval? And I want to be a doctor because I'm seeking for
that self approval and for their approval? Or is there a legitimate reason? And sometimes it's
very hard to tell the difference between the two because you've wanted it for so long. And you
know, if it's a culture piece, you've been pressured to go into a job such as a doctor, like for a
long time, and it's become a central part of who you are. So you've got to really do some digging
in there. Like you said, to see for yourself, why are you going into medicine? What is your reason
outside of all those people and your friends and people who have good intentions telling you you
could be a doctor, but do you really want to be a doctor? And so yeah, thanks for saying that.
Often asking myself the same question is like, okay, I guess I'd like to please people. I like to be
liked. It's always, well, am I working that hard to be a good doctor? Because I like for patients
so it always crosses my mind. And I don't think you can eliminate any of those things.
In a sense that we're always molded by other people and culture and all that. But I think
we're all type A's, we're probably all people that like to, yeah, to do well academically,
also to do well with other people and be liked. So it's part of a person, but I think you also
have to sort of think, okay, I want to be a doctor for not money, not for sort of other pressures,
but because I think it's what I'm meant to be. And sometimes it takes time to figure that out.
And other times you have to probably take a leap of faith. Absolutely. One of our last questions.
If you could go back in time, would you have changed anything like internally or externally
about your experience with medicine, either during premed medical school or even residency?
Would you have pursued medicine at all? And you're like, no, I want to try something else now. I'm
good with medicine. No doubt. Good with the medicine. I have no regrets. Never, never.
There's been too many good things in my life that have been associated with the path that I took to
get to medicine. And yeah, including every single day of work, my family, my wife, my kids,
all of that, it's all part of the same package. I don't have regrets at all. That's fair. Yeah.
For a second, I forgot all your kind of family stemmed from your whole path to medicine. So
it's like, how can you say otherwise? Oh, exactly. It's been good. Yeah. We are almost done here.
Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for being so open about your experience. It truly
is very inspiring for me to hear and it's very encouraging. And you have no idea how your words
would help a person. I already feel like they're helping me and giving some needed advice to the
people at the right time can change the trajectory of their lives. So thank you just for being on
this podcast. In the interest of time, we should probably start to wrap up. Is there anything else
you would like to share before we finish up? And what are the main takeaways you want listeners to
get from our conversation? Not a lot to add, but I think if it's a long path,
it doesn't really matter because the path is the important thing. And if the path doesn't end up in
medicine is still the path of your life, things sometimes can be rough, but they're rough at a
certain point in time, but they always get better. And sometimes they're rough at the point in time
for a reason. You don't see it at that time when you're getting rejected or when it's hard. But
there's, I think, usually a reason. And the reason might be that somewhere around the corner,
there's going to be something that's going to be even more exciting than you actually could imagine
or could think. And if you follow the path, then that's going to take you to where you should be.
Yeah, that's about it. Those are very good words to end with. It was a pleasure interviewing you,
Dr. Elaine. I learned a lot from our conversation. And thank you so much for joining me on this
podcast. Thank you very much. I hope the listeners here learned a few things as well,
and I can apply it to their lives. I would love to hear from all of you listening in what you
liked about this episode and what topics you want me to cover in the future episodes. So please
DM me on Instagram or LinkedIn to share your insights. This was Valeria Rusnak, the host
of the rejected pre-med podcast. And I thank you for listening.