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Hello everyone, welcome to the rejected pre-med podcast. This is a podcast for those who like

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me got rejected from medical school and are now trying to figure out what next steps to take

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and how to stay happy and peaceful in the process. In this episode, I'm honored to be interviewing

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Dr. Elaine Goutier who's a family physician and he practices anesthesia in Perth, Ontario, Canada.

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Interestingly enough, Dr. Elaine actually had to apply to medical school seven times before he got in

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and this is what we'll be talking about today. So Dr. Elaine, welcome. Thank you for coming here today.

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How do you feel about doing this episode? I think it's going to be an interesting thing to do.

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Like you said, applying seven years in a row, I think it sometimes shows that people need a lot

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of perseverance and have to try again and again before they get to their goal, their life goal

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and the reason why they want to become a doctor. So I think there's something to say about trying

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multiple times. For sure. Yes, I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this. So

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let me begin by first asking you, how did you figure out you wanted to be a doctor and not

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anything else considering how hard it is to get into medicine? So I guess a little background

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from me. So I was born in Quebec in a small town where there's a lot of good cultural stuff. So I

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was raised on a actually a pig farm and a mink farm. So I was always interested in sort of at the

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beginning more so like vet school and things like that. And of course, vet school is a little bit

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even more hard to get in. But after I got to sort of my teen years, I thought I shifted my interest

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from animals to humans because they're a lot more interesting. And so that's probably when I started

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thinking of medical school. And then I got to do my CJ in French, which is basically great

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13 and first year of university. And because I had a lot of interest in human physiology,

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I applied to McGill. And at that time, they were the only sort of biology program that was focusing

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on human physiology. So that was the program that interested me the most. But at the same time,

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it's the program that sort of challenged me and sort of got me on a long path to get into

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into med school. So I remember going to McGill on the first day and starting sort of a general

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biology class in Europe, 300 in a class, and the Dean of sort of medicine or the Dean of biology

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comes and says, Well, you know, there's 300 of you. At the end of this one semester, there'll be 150

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of you. And at the end of the year, there'll be 75 of you. So obviously, going from French to English,

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and not having any real learning in English before that, and it made it very challenging.

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And was probably the toughest year of my life. And obviously, my grades weren't what they had been

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before. And because of that, it was harder to sort of kind of up hill to be finally accepted at one

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point in medicine. So that was the challenge I made for myself. But also, the reason why it took me

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a little while to get in med school. Yeah, and not saying that it's the same experience, but myself

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being an immigrant, I remember even though it's a completely different experience, this is me talking

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about being in middle school. I didn't know any English whatsoever. And even then, it was hard

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for me to just learn how to speak English. I think it took me two years to even start getting A's.

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And this was middle school. So I can only imagine what it was like at the level you were at,

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transitioning from French to English. Absolutely. That was very challenging.

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But the physiology was so interesting to me that I sort of got through the first year of calculus,

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all of the courses that you have to do organic chemistry, all that or not really interesting,

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but you have to go through. And so I think it was after at the end of my bachelor's, which was

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about the third year that I thought of, okay, now I want to really apply to medical school.

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So I applied to the three French medical school in Quebec. And that didn't go too well. I applied

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to the three French schools because they didn't require DMCATs in those days. So I thought maybe

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I have a better chance. And then I figured out I was very naive. I didn't know how the system

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worked. So I didn't know that well, if you wanted to apply to an English school, then you needed

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to do DMCAT. So then, okay, I tried DMCAT, probably didn't do that well. And then I thought, okay,

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I'm not going to get in that way. So I brought things up to Miguel to the Ontario schools,

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then I applied again. It didn't work. And then I wanted to continue with my physiology. So I then

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got into a PhD program. I did a PhD at Miguel in respiratory physiology,

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managed to have some good collaboration and good publications. And once I got my degree,

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then I managed to get some interviews. And that's when I got accepted.

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That's great. Thank you for that breakdown. And it seemed like such a twisted long path. And you

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must have been very, well, and you are still very determined, ambitious. Well, now doctor.

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Yeah, yeah, every year, it was a bit of a hardship. But I knew that was my goal. And also I must

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admit that I always had great support system from my parents. And I don't need a support system from

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financial means or things like that. But it was more sort of an emotional support that they were

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always there, especially my mom. And I remember at the end of my PhD, when I had to really sit down

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and do my thesis, basically what I did is I went home. I was in sort of the RV that my parents

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at the time. And my mom said, just sit down, do your work. Don't worry, we're going to bring you

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food. We're going to sort of do all the things you need to do. Just focus and do it. And it basically

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was the reason why I managed to sort of, especially towards the end, when it was getting more

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difficult just to finish it. And then thesis went well. And after that, I did the applications and

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got four or five interviews. And I will always remember the one in Toronto, which is the one that

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I went to is I was at the corner of college and Queen Street. I was listening to my little music.

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It was when you two came up with one of my favorite albums. I just put on my music,

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focused on the music, went in my interview and came out and I knew I nailed it. What song was it?

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Oh, so it was a U2 Actoon Baby. And yes, it was just, I knew I was going to get it.

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A right song, a right soundtrack can do so many things for us.

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Yes, I guess the point of that is it was a long road, but I think the focus was always

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on doing it and having the persistence to every single year, try a little bit broader,

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try to add things to my CV. And also realizing that that path, and I think that's one of the

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key messages I think I want to focus on is that that path is not a wasted path. If you're going

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to get there and you think you want to be there at the end, even if the path will be curved and long

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and you really want it, I think, and you want to pursue it, I think that's,

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it's not a waste of time to get there. It's all experience that you build. It's all

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things that make a person's character built and those are all things that are important along the

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way. So and one of the other things I really like that you said is the key is to lean into your

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emotional support, because would you agree that if it wasn't for your mom, for example, or other

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people close to you, would you be able to apply so many times and keep that resilience going?

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Absolutely not. I think it was a key thing for me. I hope that your listeners all have

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the same support, because it was so important that when I finished my PhD, it was also sort of

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in the mix of a breakup. And my mom was really there. And it was one of the things that actually

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made me continue. But it also is one of the things I always try to remember that

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that wherever I am in life now, it's not just because of me. And it's because of the support.

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And if you think that you're only got where you are, because of the people that help you,

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I think it will keep you sort of humble, first of all, also thankful for who got you there.

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No one gets there just by themselves. If you remember that, I think you will respect,

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hopefully, the privilege that will be granted to you one day to become a doctor. And it is a privilege.

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And if you remember that you got there because people help you, and if you remember that you got

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there because it's a privilege, I think it will be better that way. And I think it's a privilege

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to be able to get there. I hope that for most people that it takes a while, it will make them

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see it as a privilege. If you get in easily, you think they're a big shot. You think you're all it.

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You don't think you owe anyone. You think you got it just because you're so good.

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That's not a good philosophy to be a doctor that will help other people.

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Right. And when you finally got in, describe how did you feel? And which school did you get into?

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So I got into University of Calgary, McGill, Montreal. So I got in a few. I didn't get in

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any of their French schools. And I chose Toronto because I wanted to get away from McGill because

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I had been there for so many years. I wanted to get a bit of a change in my life. So I got in a

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few. I didn't go to Calgary because they had a three-year program and no summer breaks. And

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after doing a five-year PhD, I thought, okay, that's going to kill me. Toronto was a nice change.

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So I chose Toronto. I was just going to you for a minute here. So talking about the long path and

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how the long path is sometimes actually, you don't realize it at that time because you're in it,

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you're emotionally disappointed. But the long path that took me seven years is what brought me to

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meeting my wife. Okay, so here's a little story. So you're in the class of 175 people. You don't

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know anyone. It's the first day you sit down and then you sort of start chatting and there's a lady

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just beside me. And I say, well, I, are you start chatting a little bit and she says, oh, you have

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a French accent. Or you are a language. And I say, wow, how do you know that? Well, we're going to be

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in a small group of six people doing dissection and doing sort of community things. I said, okay,

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that's good. So we do about a few months of school together. We're sort of close because we're in a

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small group of six. And then a little bit later, she sort of wants to get a little bit more involved.

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So now we're married. And we have five kids. Hi. It's 15 to 24. So the point of that is

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the path was long. And there was a reason meeting my wife. Yeah, all things happen in divine timing.

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And I've heard that a lot recently. So your story shows that it's true. That's the thing. So when

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you're not getting accepted, there's probably a reason. There's probably a reason. And at the time

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you don't know. And who knows for your listeners or you, it could be a story similar to mine.

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Yeah, no, thank you. It's very encouraging to hear that. And I know I needed to hear that. And

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and are the listeners of the podcast probably would do benefit from hearing this as well.

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And you kind of you kind of answered this question already. But what would you tell your

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younger self who was going through this growing process of applying to medical school?

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Yeah, I think I think so. Yeah, so the persistence is, I think, good. I think

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life is not a straight path for anyone. And I think it's getting probably even more and more

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complicated as the number of applicants per number of people being accepted is the ratios

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probably even worse than in my days. So you got to enjoy the path along the way. There's probably

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some good reasons for that. And I guess the other message is at the core, you have to ask yourself

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why do you want to do medicine? And I think the core has to be sort of a real reason and not

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pressure from outside factors. And outside factors could be things like parents that are thinking,

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well, maybe in our culture, if you were a doctor, you would be sort of look at someone that has

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prestige or that has status. That's not a good reason. And I know that in certain cultures,

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that may be a reason. And that's not a good reason to me anyway. So that's one. The second one is

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if people think that you're going to be a doctor and you're going to be rich or financially,

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well, that's again, not an ugly reason because at three in the morning when you're getting up

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because you're on call or because you're going to do this or you got to do this,

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there's basically no money that's worth that. That's the final reason to do it.

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And it has to be really a personal reason. Outside pressures or money are not a good reason

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to become a doctor. You have to figure out why you want to do it. Because these days,

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these days being a doctor, it's not a 40 hour per week job. For most people, it's easily a 50 or 60

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hours at multiple times with multiple pressures with multiple demands. So you got to really find

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that it's going to be your passion and that you're going to do a lot of sacrifice for that job. It's

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a privilege, but it entails a lot of sacrifices. So you got to make sure that you're doing it for

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the right reason. That's probably what I would tell myself about. And unfortunately, I was on the

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right path for that. And for saying it's a sacrifice, does that go for each specialty? Because I know

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there's different rules for each specialty like family medicine is one thing. Let's say podiatry

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is like a whole other thing. So yeah, is it different rules for each specialty? Or you think

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it's kind of a rule that applies to each specialty, at least in 2024? I honestly don't think that

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there's any specialty that is easy. I think every specialty has a fair amount of challenges. But I

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cannot see psychiatry or pediatrician or cardiologists or heart surgeons. I look at all my

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colleagues, they work hard and they really, really are caring for their patients and they

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constantly sacrifice their work, being really passionate about it. The ones that I think I see

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fail over time. And there are some are the ones that I don't think were in medicine for the right

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reasons. And most of them are the ones that I see that are because they're in it for the money.

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And those ones, first of all, it frustrates me a little bit that they got in because I don't think

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they're in for the right reason because they took someone else's position, I think. But also, I think

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in the long run, they're not necessarily happy. Yeah. And it's good that you mentioned all of that

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because as soon as you started talking about the culture piece, for example, I know that as soon

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as I claimed when I was what 13, 14 years old, I think I had this fleeting thought, okay, now

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I'll be a doctor and my parents really approved of that. And I fed off that approval. And now part

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of me kind of got rejected this first cycle. And now I kind of start reflecting a little bit thinking,

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okay, did I kind of internalize their approval? And I want to be a doctor because I'm seeking for

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that self approval and for their approval? Or is there a legitimate reason? And sometimes it's

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very hard to tell the difference between the two because you've wanted it for so long. And you

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know, if it's a culture piece, you've been pressured to go into a job such as a doctor, like for a

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long time, and it's become a central part of who you are. So you've got to really do some digging

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in there. Like you said, to see for yourself, why are you going into medicine? What is your reason

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outside of all those people and your friends and people who have good intentions telling you you

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could be a doctor, but do you really want to be a doctor? And so yeah, thanks for saying that.

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Often asking myself the same question is like, okay, I guess I'd like to please people. I like to be

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liked. It's always, well, am I working that hard to be a good doctor? Because I like for patients

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so it always crosses my mind. And I don't think you can eliminate any of those things.

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In a sense that we're always molded by other people and culture and all that. But I think

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we're all type A's, we're probably all people that like to, yeah, to do well academically,

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also to do well with other people and be liked. So it's part of a person, but I think you also

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have to sort of think, okay, I want to be a doctor for not money, not for sort of other pressures,

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but because I think it's what I'm meant to be. And sometimes it takes time to figure that out.

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And other times you have to probably take a leap of faith. Absolutely. One of our last questions.

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If you could go back in time, would you have changed anything like internally or externally

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about your experience with medicine, either during premed medical school or even residency?

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Would you have pursued medicine at all? And you're like, no, I want to try something else now. I'm

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good with medicine. No doubt. Good with the medicine. I have no regrets. Never, never.

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There's been too many good things in my life that have been associated with the path that I took to

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get to medicine. And yeah, including every single day of work, my family, my wife, my kids,

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all of that, it's all part of the same package. I don't have regrets at all. That's fair. Yeah.

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For a second, I forgot all your kind of family stemmed from your whole path to medicine. So

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it's like, how can you say otherwise? Oh, exactly. It's been good. Yeah. We are almost done here.

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Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for being so open about your experience. It truly

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is very inspiring for me to hear and it's very encouraging. And you have no idea how your words

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would help a person. I already feel like they're helping me and giving some needed advice to the

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people at the right time can change the trajectory of their lives. So thank you just for being on

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this podcast. In the interest of time, we should probably start to wrap up. Is there anything else

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you would like to share before we finish up? And what are the main takeaways you want listeners to

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get from our conversation? Not a lot to add, but I think if it's a long path,

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it doesn't really matter because the path is the important thing. And if the path doesn't end up in

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medicine is still the path of your life, things sometimes can be rough, but they're rough at a

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certain point in time, but they always get better. And sometimes they're rough at the point in time

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for a reason. You don't see it at that time when you're getting rejected or when it's hard. But

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there's, I think, usually a reason. And the reason might be that somewhere around the corner,

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there's going to be something that's going to be even more exciting than you actually could imagine

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or could think. And if you follow the path, then that's going to take you to where you should be.

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Yeah, that's about it. Those are very good words to end with. It was a pleasure interviewing you,

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Dr. Elaine. I learned a lot from our conversation. And thank you so much for joining me on this

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podcast. Thank you very much. I hope the listeners here learned a few things as well,

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and I can apply it to their lives. I would love to hear from all of you listening in what you

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liked about this episode and what topics you want me to cover in the future episodes. So please

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DM me on Instagram or LinkedIn to share your insights. This was Valeria Rusnak, the host

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of the rejected pre-med podcast. And I thank you for listening.