WEBVTT 00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:26.600 Welcome to Another Education is Possible, a podcast 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:29.660 about education's radical potential. I'm your 00:00:29.660 --> 00:00:32.979 host, Jordan Korsen, and I'm here with our six 00:00:32.979 --> 00:00:36.939 guests, the Education Genocide Liberation Class. 00:00:37.219 --> 00:00:40.700 This is our last class together, our last formal 00:00:40.700 --> 00:00:43.659 class. It's possibly our last episode, I'm not 00:00:43.659 --> 00:00:48.159 sure. It is our last formal, exhausted Thursday 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:51.520 night at six with children and animals and backgrounds 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:54.159 that podcast listeners don't get to see. So I'm 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:55.920 going to do a bit of an intro and frame what 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:57.420 this episode is going to look like. And I want 00:00:57.420 --> 00:01:00.759 to do that by talking a bit about how this class 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.740 podcast came together. So this is a class called 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:06.099 Education Genocide Liberation that I regularly 00:01:06.099 --> 00:01:08.799 teach at Stockton University. This semester, 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.680 I wanted to have it be only graduate students. 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:13.879 And that meant that only the six of you registered. 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:17.299 That opened up a pretty cool opportunity to make 00:01:17.299 --> 00:01:19.879 the class playful, creative, and do something 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:23.739 outside of the boundaries that normal classroom 00:01:23.739 --> 00:01:26.540 spaces, that confined normal classroom spaces. 00:01:27.219 --> 00:01:31.239 And also, as the six of you have heard me say 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.620 many times, there was an ulterior motive in making 00:01:33.620 --> 00:01:38.480 this class into a podcast. And so one was to 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:41.680 create public work. And the idea of that is that 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.500 I get so tired as much as I love reading student 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:48.719 work and engaging with students' ideas. So many 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.200 times assignments and assessments are basically 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:53.140 write this thing that the professor will half 00:01:53.140 --> 00:01:54.920 read, make a couple of comments that you'll half 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.939 read, and then it goes into oblivion and nobody 00:01:57.939 --> 00:02:01.680 ever sees it again. And this podcast is something 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.519 specifically designed to be public. The idea 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:07.400 is that you all would create something that would 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:11.129 go out into the world every week. And in order 00:02:11.129 --> 00:02:13.610 for that to happen, it meant that you had to 00:02:13.610 --> 00:02:16.169 do the thing that I and many graduate students 00:02:16.169 --> 00:02:19.689 have really struggled with. It meant thinking 00:02:19.689 --> 00:02:24.110 and engaging and producing in a way that is inviting 00:02:24.110 --> 00:02:26.590 and accessible to anyone who might encounter 00:02:26.590 --> 00:02:30.409 this podcast. When I was a doc student, I would 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:36.330 always say like, re -de -territorialize, energization, 00:02:36.930 --> 00:02:41.169 refractalization, and think about like making 00:02:41.169 --> 00:02:45.969 up words was the job of an academic. And I think 00:02:45.969 --> 00:02:48.069 pushing the intellectual boundaries and being 00:02:48.069 --> 00:02:53.189 playful is the work of scholarship. But this 00:02:53.189 --> 00:02:55.789 podcast, as you all have done throughout the 00:02:55.789 --> 00:02:59.520 semester, has... maintained intellectual rigor 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.240 and creativity while also being welcoming of 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:04.759 folks who have a range of experiences and backgrounds 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:09.159 and ideas and perspectives. And most importantly, 00:03:09.340 --> 00:03:12.159 this was an excuse to bring you all into direct 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.199 conversation with the scholars you were reading, 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:18.979 right? To think with their work in a direct and 00:03:18.979 --> 00:03:24.810 living way. I will say, I think that you all 00:03:24.810 --> 00:03:27.229 have gone above and beyond with all of this. 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:31.990 I think particularly in that last point that 00:03:31.990 --> 00:03:35.229 a lot of you are now in conversation with the 00:03:35.229 --> 00:03:38.389 people who were guests and will continue those 00:03:38.389 --> 00:03:41.949 conversations. Yeah, but to the point of, so 00:03:41.949 --> 00:03:43.650 that's how all this came together, but let's 00:03:43.650 --> 00:03:46.150 focus on what today looks like. And today is 00:03:46.150 --> 00:03:49.270 going to really get back to the definition of 00:03:49.270 --> 00:03:53.819 this classic podcast. What role does education 00:03:53.819 --> 00:03:57.479 serve in the world? It's a force for liberation. 00:03:57.620 --> 00:03:59.539 It's a force for genocide. It's a force for reproduction, 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:03.960 creativity, and so much else. So that allows 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.819 us to do the best part of this class, which was 00:04:06.819 --> 00:04:09.780 the before and after we hit record every week. 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:13.919 I genuinely mean this. Every week, without fail. 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:19.319 The guest would come in at 630 and we do brief 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.420 introductions before we hit record. And the guest 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:25.680 was always they were always super impressed with 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:27.620 you all and then disappointed that we had to 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:29.680 do the interview part because they just wanted 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:31.839 to hear more about your work. So today is going 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.480 to be hearing more about your work. And we're 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:37.939 going to bring this idea of what does education 00:04:37.939 --> 00:04:42.660 do together with your ideas? So our guests today 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:49.149 are. Nellie, Bosco, Sam, Sarah, Emmy, Y, welcome. 00:04:49.790 --> 00:04:53.670 How is everyone? Good. Thank you. I'm glad we 00:04:53.670 --> 00:04:56.649 can't see thumbs up on a podcast, but I appreciate 00:04:56.649 --> 00:05:01.649 the good. I've done my rambling intro, and then 00:05:01.649 --> 00:05:03.910 I'm going to ask you all a question. I gave you 00:05:03.910 --> 00:05:06.430 the task of fill in the blank, education is blank, 00:05:06.529 --> 00:05:08.569 or education is a force for blank, and going 00:05:08.569 --> 00:05:10.449 from there. And then you're all going to have 00:05:10.449 --> 00:05:14.709 a conversation with each other. To get started, 00:05:14.889 --> 00:05:19.170 I'll just ask that question. Emi, what is education 00:05:19.170 --> 00:05:22.569 a force for? I think that education currently 00:05:22.569 --> 00:05:26.269 is a force for exclusion. And while I do believe 00:05:26.269 --> 00:05:28.970 that education can be a force for inclusion of 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:30.910 different cultures, identities, and different 00:05:30.910 --> 00:05:33.569 histories, as someone who's been through the 00:05:33.569 --> 00:05:36.069 American public school system and somebody who's 00:05:36.069 --> 00:05:38.110 worked in the American public school system, 00:05:38.860 --> 00:05:40.600 The current iteration of education that takes 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.480 place in schools is much more reflective of exclusionary 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.480 practices. Like I think back to our last discussion 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.939 with Dr. Susan Baglieri, where we discussed special 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:53.339 education classrooms being separate from others 00:05:53.339 --> 00:05:55.519 in school buildings, with many of those rooms 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.819 not having curriculums that speak to the academic 00:05:58.819 --> 00:06:01.560 interests of those students, or like just flat 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.060 out designating those students as life skills 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:07.459 students, quote unquote. And then It also made 00:06:07.459 --> 00:06:10.839 me think about Dr. Harper Keenan and how in our 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:13.379 discussion about gender roles, they are taught 00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:16.459 and enforced in school settings. And by solidifying 00:06:16.459 --> 00:06:18.959 what it means to be a girl and what it means 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.100 to be a boy, when you solidify that, it can make 00:06:22.100 --> 00:06:24.300 students who don't fit those specific characteristics 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:27.040 feel as if they're excluded from others outside 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.199 of the classroom. I really liked how you said 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:33.339 that. you've experienced some of the things that 00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:36.560 you're talking about, which you do truly see, 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.920 even if kind of like you grow up and you look 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.180 back at maybe your middle school experience, 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:44.339 your high school experience, you could definitely 00:06:44.339 --> 00:06:47.620 kind of point out areas within your educational 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:49.660 life where, you know, these things do apply. 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:52.740 And I really do agree with you. My question to 00:06:52.740 --> 00:06:56.360 you is schools can definitely transform the way 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.839 that they do things. However, it seems like they 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.399 choose not to most of the time. So I guess my 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:08.819 question to you is how can we change these exclusionary 00:07:08.819 --> 00:07:12.980 practices? For example, in my older high school, 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:17.000 I remember a room in the basement being dedicated 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:22.779 to students who needed special education. It 00:07:22.779 --> 00:07:25.240 was definitely like they were being pulled apart 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:28.759 from us, kind of far away from us. So they were 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:32.060 left out of everything that we would do as a 00:07:32.060 --> 00:07:35.740 school, along with mismatched curricula. And 00:07:35.740 --> 00:07:38.040 like you mentioned, the general expectations 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.699 that are placed on students. How can we make 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:44.649 this a more inclusive system? that honors diversity. 00:07:45.310 --> 00:07:48.069 Yeah, honestly, I think back to the point that 00:07:48.069 --> 00:07:50.949 Dr. Keenan made in our episode, I believe it 00:07:50.949 --> 00:07:53.750 was towards the end, where he talked about how 00:07:53.750 --> 00:07:56.449 schools are just buildings and it's a building 00:07:56.449 --> 00:08:00.129 where kids actually outnumber adults. And if 00:08:00.129 --> 00:08:02.170 we somehow find a way to make learning environments 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:05.230 more child -focused, or even if there's just 00:08:05.230 --> 00:08:09.449 a way to give kids more autonomy, it... can create 00:08:09.449 --> 00:08:11.029 that more inclusive space that we're looking 00:08:11.029 --> 00:08:14.149 for whether it's you create a flexible space 00:08:14.149 --> 00:08:16.329 so that more students feel comfortable entering 00:08:16.329 --> 00:08:19.230 them because when you go from a special education 00:08:19.230 --> 00:08:22.350 classroom to a regular classroom regular classrooms 00:08:22.350 --> 00:08:25.430 are much more rigid so the flexibility could 00:08:25.430 --> 00:08:28.569 give students the confidence to be able to enter 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:32.169 these new spaces but also in my opinion i think 00:08:32.169 --> 00:08:35.649 that by just making a student feel like they 00:08:35.649 --> 00:08:38.379 are heard makes all the difference and just feeling 00:08:38.379 --> 00:08:41.799 that they are In the conversation with you and 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:43.980 not being spoken down to. I'd always get feedback 00:08:43.980 --> 00:08:47.059 from my students because I'm a teacher as well. 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:50.220 I always get the feedback that thank you for 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:53.379 speaking to us like we're an actual human being. 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.899 And I always found that to be odd because I'm 00:08:56.899 --> 00:08:58.639 like, what do you mean I was speaking to you 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.059 like a human being? You are a human being. It's 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:04.000 really upsetting to see that. And it's mostly 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.440 in veteran teachers that they kind of talk to 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.879 students as if. they're starting from scratch. 00:09:11.019 --> 00:09:13.419 And it's really hurtful to a lot of students 00:09:13.419 --> 00:09:16.899 because they're very intelligent, maybe not the 00:09:16.899 --> 00:09:19.480 intelligence that you might consider to be like 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.539 that top tier of intelligence, but they are very 00:09:22.539 --> 00:09:25.019 intelligent in their own way. I really appreciate 00:09:25.019 --> 00:09:28.820 you mentioning that. You worded that so perfectly. 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.559 I don't think anybody could have worded that 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.610 better. Sarah, what you're saying and what Emi 00:09:34.610 --> 00:09:37.769 shared makes me think actually back to Dr. Chandler 00:09:37.769 --> 00:09:41.450 Miranda's episode where we spoke about counterpublics 00:09:41.450 --> 00:09:44.549 and the ways that groups build affinity spaces. 00:09:44.809 --> 00:09:47.570 So I'm wondering whether it's Sarah's classroom 00:09:47.570 --> 00:09:50.590 closing the door and building a space apart from 00:09:50.590 --> 00:09:53.409 an oppressive public school or the way that you 00:09:53.409 --> 00:09:57.809 were talking, Emi, about the ways that... students 00:09:57.809 --> 00:10:00.450 build together against exclusion. I'm wondering 00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:03.049 what role you see affinity playing in this idea. 00:10:03.269 --> 00:10:05.429 From my understanding, I think affinity plays 00:10:05.429 --> 00:10:07.769 the biggest role in it because a lot of times 00:10:07.769 --> 00:10:11.049 people get placed into criteria based off of 00:10:11.049 --> 00:10:13.450 what the public can see, if that makes sense. 00:10:13.529 --> 00:10:15.470 So if you have a, especially a visible disability, 00:10:15.610 --> 00:10:19.429 you get put into a group of people who have similar 00:10:19.429 --> 00:10:23.580 visible disabilities to them without any. real 00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:26.440 recognition for interests or what you might have 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:29.240 an affinity to. So I think by creating those 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.580 spaces, whether it's a teacher helping facilitate 00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:35.960 those spaces, or if it's students and kids coming 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:38.259 together themselves and figuring out what everybody 00:10:38.259 --> 00:10:40.460 has an interest in and how to include everybody 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:44.740 in the conversation, I think that's how it would 00:10:44.740 --> 00:10:52.379 relate. Bosco, what is the force of education? 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.659 I had a hard time trying to find a single word 00:10:56.659 --> 00:11:00.559 to answer the prompt. So I'll start by explaining 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.179 some of the expectations I had about this course, 00:11:03.379 --> 00:11:05.899 mainly being that we were just going to talk 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:08.919 about the educational system and how to reform 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.039 it. But in being educated in this course, what 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.179 it's done for me is make me think that maybe 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:20.600 we should not just expand our horizons in defining 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.840 education, but also where education can happen 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.919 and where the project of education can occur. 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:34.759 So for me, education is an opportunity to broaden 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:41.759 our perspectives in where we can keep this project 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.879 going. I was really influenced by what Dr. Danny 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.679 Friedrich, who first episode really good episode 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.639 i really enjoyed hearing him talk but he made 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:57.340 really good points about the limits of formal 00:11:57.340 --> 00:12:03.360 education that we cannot view education as the 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.460 last bastion or just the bastion for societal 00:12:07.460 --> 00:12:12.759 change fascists were also educated these people 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:20.090 went to universities in prestigious places and 00:12:20.090 --> 00:12:23.649 they still ended up the way they did so and also 00:12:23.649 --> 00:12:27.750 he mentioned that teachers shouldn't really put 00:12:27.750 --> 00:12:31.169 that on themselves that they have to put this 00:12:31.169 --> 00:12:34.629 mountain of pressure that yes they should figure 00:12:34.629 --> 00:12:37.230 out what they can do within their classroom but 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:40.769 don't expect to be the the savior there's only 00:12:40.769 --> 00:12:44.240 so much that you can influence in the class And 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:47.840 whether or not that lasts after you're not there 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:54.200 is just up to luck. And in studying in this course 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.600 how the current formal institution of education 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.580 developed, the way I come to understand it is 00:13:01.580 --> 00:13:04.539 that a lot of the systems were made to address 00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:08.000 just the growing population. So it was to make 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.600 education as digestible for everyone, students 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.009 and teachers. to help create the state and create 00:13:16.009 --> 00:13:19.110 workers for the state. And whenever there were 00:13:19.110 --> 00:13:24.250 earnest reforms that tried to take away this 00:13:24.250 --> 00:13:26.870 generalization and help make it more individualized, 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:31.049 there were so many roadblocks within the institution. 00:13:31.309 --> 00:13:34.289 Teachers got burnt out trying to design individual 00:13:34.289 --> 00:13:37.649 courses. Students, many students felt that... 00:13:38.379 --> 00:13:41.980 felt lost or unguided in where they would want 00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:46.220 to go so right so i was seeing that these were 00:13:46.220 --> 00:13:51.539 strict limits on education but other guests started 00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:54.320 talking about what i would consider like the 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.820 hinterlands of where education could be dr noah 00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:01.820 romero talked about how in skate culture there 00:14:01.820 --> 00:14:05.519 was place for education it just didn't look like 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.919 what education has been taught to us to look 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:13.539 at, to look at, right, where people of different 00:14:13.539 --> 00:14:18.419 identities can find some acceptance and realize, 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:23.100 oh, I'm not alone here. I can learn more in these 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:24.980 spaces, right, because it's more comfortable 00:14:24.980 --> 00:14:27.419 and more accepting there as opposed to school. 00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:33.720 And Dr. Susan Baglieri talked about how The limits 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.080 of helping reform schools for students with special 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:41.620 education, many of them felt resigned to their 00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:45.679 position. They were always aware of where they 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:50.899 had been placed. And teachers lowered their expectations 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:53.259 for them. They lowered their expectations for 00:14:53.259 --> 00:14:56.740 themselves. And it's really hard to break out 00:14:56.740 --> 00:15:00.860 of these bubbles in school. But when people with 00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:04.720 disabilities come together, They found that we 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.399 can organize on our own. We can create something 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.639 outside of the school, which to me reminded, 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:13.840 which reminded me of mutual aid, which is an 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.720 idea that's really being tinkered with, especially 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:19.440 as people are seeing that the government cannot 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.519 be trusted, at least as a reliable, continuous 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.480 source of help. And that made me think of the, 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:30.480 right, bringing this, of expanding. the project 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.960 of education outside of the formal institution, 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:34.820 outside the schools, outside the universities. 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:41.159 So that, right, the more spread out it is, there's 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.940 more opportunities for individualized education. 00:15:44.740 --> 00:15:50.039 There's more opportunities for protection because 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.220 right now what we're seeing is a government. 00:15:54.029 --> 00:15:58.049 besieging the education system colleges are buckling 00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:02.029 or sometimes just bending the knee and a lot 00:16:02.029 --> 00:16:05.870 of teachers feel uncertain what they can do will 00:16:05.870 --> 00:16:08.529 speaking out about a certain issue get them fired 00:16:08.529 --> 00:16:13.129 will they have to hold their tongue so putting 00:16:13.129 --> 00:16:15.929 so much they're putting a lot of pressure on 00:16:15.929 --> 00:16:18.970 this system of education instead of right we 00:16:18.970 --> 00:16:22.000 should still hold the line where we can but Thinking 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.820 that if education falls, it's over, I think that's 00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:31.100 too restrictive. The more pockets there are where 00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:35.059 education occurs, the harder it will be to snuff 00:16:35.059 --> 00:16:38.200 it out. And it reminded me, this current dynamic 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.320 of this quote from one of my favorite shows, 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.700 Andor, which was taken from season one, when 00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:47.220 the character Nemec was part of his manifesto 00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:50.840 was being read. Remember that the frontier of 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:53.419 the rebellion is everywhere, and even the smallest 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:55.960 act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. 00:16:56.299 --> 00:16:59.639 And remember this, the imperial need for control 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.220 is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny 00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:05.859 requires constant effort, it breaks, it leaks, 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:08.819 authority is brittle, oppression is the mask 00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:11.480 of fear. Aside from that just being an absolutely 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:17.880 brilliant quote, I think that really hits the... 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:20.839 hits a chord with me with what's going on and 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.359 this idea of maybe making a strong, instead of 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.259 having one system of education, we create a web, 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.500 right, of different communities, right? The stronger 00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:35.480 and more spread out the web is, right, small 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:38.339 acts of insurrection anywhere. It could be, I've 00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:40.740 seen this happen in political communities, Zoom 00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:44.759 seminars on how to help neighbors who are dealing 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:48.819 with ICE raids. Small subreddit communities that 00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:51.059 help each other navigate what's going on, keep 00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:54.539 people educated and informed on, well, what's 00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.599 the policy change here? Is this going to affect 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.799 me? Or even just smaller communities, small courses 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.519 set up by independent teachers or professors 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.160 or just small friend groups, right? The more 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.500 widespread this is, the bigger and stronger the 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:15.960 net is, the more. The empire, right? This imperial 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.579 force is going to have to expend its energy to 00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:21.700 try to reach every corner. And ultimately, that's 00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:27.359 just a failed endeavor because they can't. They 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:31.960 cannot take out everything. Eventually, this 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:36.880 authority will crumble and it will break. And 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:41.180 that's what I think I've taken out of this course. 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:44.700 Yes, education is still important. The institutions 00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:47.960 of schools and universities still have purpose, 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.660 still have great people in them and that we should 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:55.819 support and they should fight. But maybe we should 00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:58.619 look to the hinterlands. And instead of seeing 00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:02.880 them as just a hinterland, we can see them as 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:07.480 unexplored avenues of how to make this net, this 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.420 stronger mesh. to have a more reliable and enduring 00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:15.059 system. Although I feel like you already covered 00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:18.799 the answer of the question. So thank you so much 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.019 for that. Since you focus a lot on formal institutions 00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:25.700 and then you brought up examples from Star Wars, 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:29.240 you also mentioned like the online forums and 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:31.599 things like that. And now I'm thinking about 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.299 like during these dark times, what do these alternative 00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:40.880 spaces that you've mentioned offer? Yeah. There's 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:47.180 a lot of solidarity and comfort I find in online 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:51.380 communities, right? To get through this administration, 00:19:51.619 --> 00:19:53.799 I've got through so many subreddits. It's just 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:56.700 comforting seeing other people being freaked 00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:00.500 out or angry about the same thing, but also being 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:02.579 encouraged, seeing people saying, no, we can 00:20:02.579 --> 00:20:05.500 organize, we can do it. And sometimes it only 00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:08.450 manifests as like 10 people meeting. But again, 00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:11.730 it's that idea, a small act of insurrection pushes 00:20:11.730 --> 00:20:15.769 the line forward. These are people, 10 people 00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:17.990 doesn't seem like a lot, but those are 10 people 00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:21.190 that can look after 10 other people or 20 people 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:24.349 who can help keep others informed and give hope. 00:20:24.789 --> 00:20:28.910 And, you know, in terms of pop culture, it is 00:20:28.910 --> 00:20:33.529 very reassuring to see that projects like Andor 00:20:33.529 --> 00:20:38.730 get money. The messaging was very strong, very 00:20:38.730 --> 00:20:42.150 well done. But I was surprised to see such a 00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:45.089 beautiful piece of anti -fascist art on Disney. 00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:51.089 And I love that they got that support. When you 00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:55.650 see your government push down everyone, except 00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:58.150 the few select people who have all the wealth, 00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:02.309 and seeing parts of the political system that 00:21:02.309 --> 00:21:05.170 you think were there to defend you, either just... 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:13.539 put up symbolic or just completely buckle. It 00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:16.700 is nice to see that at the very least in the 00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:20.599 movies and the shows and art that people make 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:24.960 in these cultural places that these messages 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.920 of acceptance, of resistance to imperial forces 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.859 are still resonating with people and driving 00:21:30.859 --> 00:21:34.750 them into action. right so like a lot during 00:21:34.750 --> 00:21:36.589 the no kings protest a lot of people were saying 00:21:36.589 --> 00:21:41.369 um i have friends everywhere which was taken 00:21:41.369 --> 00:21:44.849 from andor to that was their little code phrase 00:21:44.849 --> 00:21:49.190 they would say to identify each other and some 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:53.240 And even in anime, there's an anime called One 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.160 Piece, which a lot of people say, oh, anime isn't 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.480 political. But the symbol of the pirate band 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.480 has been appearing in a lot of Gen Z -led revolutions. 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:06.960 So there's a lot of subtext that's being missed 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.460 by some commentators, but a lot of people are 00:22:09.460 --> 00:22:13.160 still feeling those messages come through. And 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:16.619 it's also just nice that I can have these moments 00:22:16.619 --> 00:22:19.680 of like, okay, cool. there are other people who 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.039 have good message and I can also just enjoy and 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.980 decompress. I can watch Andor, love the messaging 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:29.440 and also say, this is a good show. I could decompress 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:34.299 from everything. And I think that stories, pop 00:22:34.299 --> 00:22:37.140 culture have always been with us. They've just 00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:40.720 manifested in different forms and they will continue 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.460 playing a big role in the project of humanity 00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:47.180 and education. Actually, what I think is interesting 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:49.839 is you brought up into conversation how there 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.519 are people who will look at pieces of media and 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:55.400 be like, it's not political. And like, why are 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:56.579 you trying to make everything political? And 00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:58.859 that is something that is also very big in the 00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:02.079 horror genre and that area, which is where my 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.920 field of study is within genocide studies. And 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.200 I just think it's interesting how these stories 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.700 of resistance exist in media because there's 00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:14.720 always going to be a story. told and it's like 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.240 there are some people who are like i'm just gonna 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.359 we're not gonna talk about that so yeah i thought 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.220 it was interesting that you brought that up so 00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:25.039 bosco we're we're gonna move on but i would be 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.000 remiss if i didn't ask the thing that we have 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.900 talked about a lot uh off off air while we're 00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:32.859 not recording the podcast there are a lot of 00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:35.359 hot takes in this class on what is the best star 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:38.940 wars so of the nine movies what is the best star 00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:41.940 wars this is a film i grew up with and the more 00:23:42.619 --> 00:23:44.500 I've gone through my mental health journey, the 00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:45.980 more I've come to appreciate it. And that is 00:23:45.980 --> 00:23:48.539 Star Wars Episode 3. A lot of people criticize 00:23:48.539 --> 00:23:50.940 it for Anakin turning to the dark side so quickly. 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:54.420 But I think a lot of people just have never experienced 00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:56.980 people with borderline personality disorder or 00:23:56.980 --> 00:24:02.759 bipolar, which I also have. So seeing Anakin's 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.819 anxiety eat away at him so quickly, par for the 00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:10.339 course. So an unintentional representation also 00:24:10.339 --> 00:24:13.509 just... a really good message on how democracy 00:24:13.509 --> 00:24:16.890 can crumble and the warning signs we should keep 00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:19.589 its tabs on. Also, it's the Clone Wars. I just 00:24:19.589 --> 00:24:27.190 love any Clone Wars project. Why? What is the 00:24:27.190 --> 00:24:30.210 force of education? In my opinion, I believe 00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:34.450 that education is a force for resistance towards 00:24:34.450 --> 00:24:37.569 any kind of erasure of the community's identities. 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:41.740 and it's also a tool to preserve the culture 00:24:41.740 --> 00:24:45.920 and the history and their identity. Applying 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.940 this concept to Gaza, we see how many people 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:53.920 who are under relentless bombardment do insist 00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.019 on learning using what is available for them 00:24:57.019 --> 00:25:00.599 to learn and thrive despite the lack of the basic 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.809 necessities. They do create their own spaces 00:25:03.809 --> 00:25:07.190 to share knowledge in tents, ruins, or any remaining 00:25:07.190 --> 00:25:11.529 refugee or displacement camp. And all of the 00:25:11.529 --> 00:25:15.109 educational institutions, as a matter of fact, 00:25:15.369 --> 00:25:17.849 all of the educational and cultural institutions 00:25:17.849 --> 00:25:21.589 have been completely wiped out in Gaza. But still, 00:25:21.829 --> 00:25:25.690 people there refuse to accept the destruction 00:25:25.690 --> 00:25:29.750 of intellectual and cultural lives, or even abandon. 00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:33.769 abandon its value. So for teachers and students 00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.349 doing this, they're pushing against any attempt 00:25:37.349 --> 00:25:41.390 of colonizers to eliminate their memory and annihilate 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:45.369 their capacity to produce knowledge. In addition 00:25:45.369 --> 00:25:49.329 to that, in spite of the internet cuts, when 00:25:49.329 --> 00:25:52.069 students write their diaries, teachers record 00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:55.950 their classes, and university professors collect 00:25:55.950 --> 00:26:00.359 testimonies, Here, their bearing witness challenge 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.859 any counter -narrative that silence or mute their 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:07.799 voices and keep evidence that might lead for 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:13.240 any future accountability. In our podcast, we 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:16.099 interviewed Dr. Ahmed Kamal Janina, who is a 00:26:16.099 --> 00:26:18.799 university professor at Al -Aqsa University in 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.660 Gaza. In that episode, he emphasized how education 00:26:23.660 --> 00:26:27.750 means resilience for people in Gaza. And resilience 00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:34.769 means in Arabic. And he emphasized that by insisting 00:26:34.769 --> 00:26:38.210 on education, we're saying no to scholasticide. 00:26:38.450 --> 00:26:41.970 And scholasticide, for those who don't know what 00:26:41.970 --> 00:26:45.430 it means, it's a term that was coined by who 00:26:45.430 --> 00:26:49.829 is a Palestinian scholar. She coined that term 00:26:49.829 --> 00:26:53.630 after the 2008 -2009 assault on the Gaza Strip. 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:59.200 And what we really mean by this term is the systematic 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.420 and deliberate destruction and attack on the 00:27:01.420 --> 00:27:05.000 educational system as a strategy of elimination 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.599 and domination. So the goal here is to destroy 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.619 any attempt to produce knowledge. So that's why 00:27:12.619 --> 00:27:16.240 this targeting takes place in everything. It 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.240 takes place in schools, libraries, archives, 00:27:20.619 --> 00:27:24.279 curricula, teachers. and any academics or anything 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.859 that can make education possible under such circumstances. 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.019 So in his opposite, he also elaborated on how 00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:36.680 educational practices can also emerge even in 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:40.400 times of war and conflict and starvation and 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:44.240 specific. So for Palestinians in Gaza, education 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:49.779 is also a means of survival. We come to realize 00:27:49.779 --> 00:27:52.900 that education is not limited to formal schooling, 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:57.339 but it's also a continuous battle over who gets 00:27:57.339 --> 00:28:01.480 to remember, imagine, and simply exist. And it's 00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:04.759 a way to resist any kind of erasure to the identity 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:07.539 of the Palestinian people. Thank you so much, 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:11.720 Wai, for your answers. And based on that, I would 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.410 like to ask you some more. uh what role do you 00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:18.210 think should educational institutions play in 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:20.670 ensuring that learning contributes to equity 00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:26.450 fairness and the fight against injustice um in 00:28:26.450 --> 00:28:29.670 my opinion i believe that educational institutions 00:28:29.670 --> 00:28:35.309 should always help um like make the world more 00:28:35.309 --> 00:28:39.529 fair for everyone the role is not just to teach 00:28:39.529 --> 00:28:42.869 facts and spoon feed students, but also to teach 00:28:42.869 --> 00:28:46.490 them how to think, how to question, how to understand 00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:51.250 inequalities. And academic institutions should 00:28:51.250 --> 00:28:55.029 also create safe places where everyone feels 00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:59.210 valued, respected, included, and able to succeed 00:28:59.210 --> 00:29:02.950 no matter what their background is. They should 00:29:02.950 --> 00:29:05.190 teach students about histories of injustice. 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:09.480 encourage critical thinking and help them recognize 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.960 unfair systems in society. They should also support 00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:17.660 students who face obstacles or barriers, offer 00:29:17.660 --> 00:29:20.920 equal opportunities for everyone, and challenge 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:25.539 any kind of discrimination when it emerges. So 00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:29.640 in simple terms, education should give people 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.640 the tools they need. need to understand injustice 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.119 and the courage and skills to change it and to 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.579 challenge the system. Thank you so much, Y. I 00:29:40.579 --> 00:29:44.559 think also in the case of Gaza, it is very difficult 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.079 to overcome all the hardships and concentrate 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:51.099 on education. I think it really demands courage 00:29:51.099 --> 00:29:54.940 to do that. So, Y, I'm wondering, based on what 00:29:54.940 --> 00:29:57.180 you talked about, about Samud and resistance, 00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.859 About both the possibilities and limitations 00:30:00.859 --> 00:30:04.960 of solidarity, which is something commonly used 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.779 here in the United States for those of us engaged 00:30:07.779 --> 00:30:10.759 in Palestine, the Palestine solidarity movement. 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.599 And I don't mean that in terms of the limits, 00:30:13.700 --> 00:30:18.910 meaning like the suppression of. activists and 00:30:18.910 --> 00:30:22.089 scholars' voices, but rather the fact that that 00:30:22.089 --> 00:30:24.210 becomes the conversation itself, right? Through 00:30:24.210 --> 00:30:27.349 talking about solidarity, we end up talking more 00:30:27.349 --> 00:30:30.430 about this professor who is fired rather than 00:30:30.430 --> 00:30:33.089 Palestine itself. When we say teach Palestine, 00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:34.750 we're talking about whether or not we should 00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:37.210 teach Palestine in a US classroom rather than 00:30:37.210 --> 00:30:41.890 actually just centering Palestine. So what do 00:30:41.890 --> 00:30:48.319 you think? I believe that we need to start like 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:50.640 in order to teach about Palestine, the first 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.799 thing that we need to do is to teach about the 00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:57.559 history itself, teach about Palestine before 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:01.700 1948, the society, the culture, the Palestinian 00:31:01.700 --> 00:31:05.220 villages, and name the Nakba as a foundational 00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:10.680 event, not just a side note, and also as what 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.809 you've mentioned. center the Palestinian voices 00:31:13.809 --> 00:31:17.789 and their left experiences by using the Palestinian 00:31:17.789 --> 00:31:21.230 scholars, writers, journalists, teachers, and 00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:24.089 students, include their testimonies, diaries, 00:31:24.150 --> 00:31:28.670 poems, oral histories, and always give agency 00:31:28.670 --> 00:31:31.069 for the Palestinian people and do not portray 00:31:31.069 --> 00:31:36.269 them as victims or mere statistics or mere numbers. 00:31:36.730 --> 00:31:41.720 And we should also refer to when we teach students 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.859 about Palestine, or when we show solidarity to 00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:49.279 the Palestinian cause, we should teach structures, 00:31:49.539 --> 00:31:52.519 not just events, and refer to the settler colonialism 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.960 system, the apartheid, the occupation, the siege, 00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:02.279 and talk more about how these policies do shape 00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.019 our life as Palestinians. Talk about the checkpoints, 00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:12.359 the restrictions on movements, the the 17 years 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:17.299 of blockade on Gaza, the restrictions on health 00:32:17.299 --> 00:32:21.960 services, and link also Gaza and the West Bank 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:26.640 as one system, not separate crisis. And because 00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:30.279 this would help people understand why violence 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:34.140 is ongoing. And we should also mention or talk 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:38.589 about how education is taking place in Gaza, 00:32:38.809 --> 00:32:42.529 highlight how teachers are teaching infants, 00:32:43.009 --> 00:32:46.630 how they are using the minimum means that are 00:32:46.630 --> 00:32:50.589 available for them to learn, use scholasticity 00:32:50.589 --> 00:32:54.230 to show how education is being targeted. Also, 00:32:54.430 --> 00:32:58.869 we should, which like something that I'm interested 00:32:58.869 --> 00:33:02.230 in is to understand or to focus on media bias 00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:06.460 and how. Language can play a role in distorting 00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:10.819 the reality. So what should we do is to analyze 00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:14.920 the passive voice, how language is being used 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.859 to portray the reality. Ask who's speaking here, 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.380 who is missing. Try to avoid words that focus 00:33:23.380 --> 00:33:27.660 on war, not occupation or siege. The passive 00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:30.599 voice is like, Palestinians were killed, Palestinians 00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:35.829 died. So try to say or to talk about the reality 00:33:35.829 --> 00:33:41.650 in Palestine explicitly. And I believe there 00:33:41.650 --> 00:33:45.789 are also a lot of challenges that those who are 00:33:45.789 --> 00:33:49.470 talking about Palestine would encounter. Because 00:33:49.470 --> 00:33:53.369 teaching about Palestine is often treated as 00:33:53.369 --> 00:33:57.910 a political risk. As what you said before, there 00:33:57.910 --> 00:34:00.680 would be a lot of accusations of bias. a lot 00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:05.440 of academics might be fired. They are also facing 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:13.380 censorship, and they are facing a lot of restrictions. 00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:21.539 So also, I believe that we should avoid talking 00:34:21.539 --> 00:34:25.059 about or framing Palestinians through the deaf 00:34:25.059 --> 00:34:29.400 language. And like about like stop talking about 00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.019 Palestinian using the dehumanizing language that 00:34:32.019 --> 00:34:36.760 we always see in the mainstream media. And also 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:41.739 we should talk about how Palestinians in Gaza 00:34:41.739 --> 00:34:45.199 are teaching while they're struggling with psychological 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.099 trauma situation. They're teaching while grieving 00:34:49.099 --> 00:34:51.380 the loss or mourning the loss of their family 00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:54.800 members while also being displaced or even in 00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:02.500 exile. So teaching about Palestine requires centering 00:35:02.500 --> 00:35:09.099 Palestinian voices, also resisting any depoliticized 00:35:09.099 --> 00:35:12.780 humanitarian narratives, while also navigating 00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:16.360 those censorship processes or misrepresentation 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:19.920 and also the emotional toll of like teaching 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.000 under conditions of starvation, like lacking 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:26.179 the basic needs of life, and also conditions 00:35:26.179 --> 00:35:29.440 of ongoing erasure. Yeah, I think there's a big 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.199 connection there to Dr. Shatara and Dr. Sala's 00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:39.719 work from an earlier episode this season. Nelly, 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:43.000 what is the force of education? To my mind, education 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.260 is a force for fighting inequalities and education 00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:49.079 has the power to challenge systematic inequalities 00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:53.300 and social injustices by developing critical 00:35:53.300 --> 00:35:57.280 thinking and knowledge. For students coming from 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.099 marginalized communities, education can be especially 00:36:00.099 --> 00:36:03.599 transformative because it serves as a way or 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:07.539 a pathway to social mobility, empowerment and 00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:11.460 ability to influence. And as one of our guests, 00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:14.739 Abuel Haj emphasizes, if the universities are 00:36:14.739 --> 00:36:17.440 not willing to stand up for what is the core 00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:19.199 of their mission, I don't know what they are 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.550 doing. I like this point so much. So much to 00:36:23.550 --> 00:36:27.090 the point, to my mind, that it typically describes 00:36:27.090 --> 00:36:29.690 all the situations that were happening in the 00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:33.829 US some months ago and now also. And so in this 00:36:33.829 --> 00:36:36.789 case, universities and schools have a big responsibility 00:36:36.789 --> 00:36:40.849 to fight injustice, promote equity. And when 00:36:40.849 --> 00:36:43.829 education fulfills its mission, it becomes a 00:36:43.829 --> 00:36:48.429 more powerful tool and the world becomes much 00:36:48.429 --> 00:36:53.320 better, to my mind. Yeah. Speaking about education, 00:36:53.739 --> 00:36:58.039 what barriers are in place that you think must 00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:00.920 be overcome to allow for people to be educated 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:07.570 about injustices going on in the world? a lot 00:37:07.570 --> 00:37:10.510 of things connected with education impact on 00:37:10.510 --> 00:37:14.849 our behavior and particularly our perception 00:37:14.849 --> 00:37:18.010 of the world point of views and especially for 00:37:18.010 --> 00:37:22.469 those who are coming from countries which have 00:37:22.469 --> 00:37:25.650 somehow some conservative point of views it is 00:37:25.650 --> 00:37:28.150 much more difficult to overcome all the barriers. 00:37:29.309 --> 00:37:33.130 Women, the first barrier can be emotional resistance 00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:36.849 or emotional barrier. The feeling that a lot 00:37:36.849 --> 00:37:39.690 of people can have when they are listening to 00:37:39.690 --> 00:37:42.730 the other side of the story and they are starting 00:37:42.730 --> 00:37:46.150 to feel discomfort, guilt or something like that. 00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:48.989 And sometimes they are rejecting to accept the 00:37:48.989 --> 00:37:53.710 things as they are. So the next barrier are schools 00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:56.789 and political pressures because a lot of educators 00:37:56.789 --> 00:38:00.809 do not have opportunity. to discuss topics like 00:38:00.809 --> 00:38:05.030 racism, genocide and colonialism. And in order 00:38:05.030 --> 00:38:09.550 to overcome all this, I think there is a need 00:38:09.550 --> 00:38:14.789 to have a courage and to give opportunity educators 00:38:14.789 --> 00:38:18.250 to develop critical thinking among their students 00:38:18.250 --> 00:38:22.829 and to make a better developed and better place 00:38:22.829 --> 00:38:26.610 to live and also build some roots for... future 00:38:26.610 --> 00:38:30.690 generations to know more real stories than are 00:38:30.690 --> 00:38:35.789 taught in schools or universities yeah the first 00:38:35.789 --> 00:38:38.030 part of what you said really resonated with me 00:38:38.030 --> 00:38:42.570 because so many people will experience discomfort 00:38:42.570 --> 00:38:46.349 as you're saying and they aren't able to recognize 00:38:46.349 --> 00:38:48.789 that while they are uncomfortable they aren't 00:38:48.789 --> 00:38:51.789 in danger that like their life their experiences 00:38:51.789 --> 00:38:57.500 aren't being threatened and So it's easier rather 00:38:57.500 --> 00:39:01.500 than challenging their ideas or beliefs to write 00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:11.539 them off as attacks or as illegitimate, uncredible, 00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:15.940 rather than challenging their own biases and 00:39:15.940 --> 00:39:20.500 learning. Thank you. I actually have one question. 00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:24.030 I'm really interested. to know more about the 00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:26.909 responsibilities that you believe that schools 00:39:26.909 --> 00:39:30.710 and universities and academic institutions have 00:39:30.710 --> 00:39:34.210 when it comes to challenging injustice and supporting 00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:37.670 any marginalized community? And can you give 00:39:37.670 --> 00:39:40.369 us any examples with that? I think in a better 00:39:40.369 --> 00:39:43.690 world, universities and schools should always 00:39:43.690 --> 00:39:47.250 stand to the side of justice. But a lot of cases 00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:50.139 when there are... political aspects that do not 00:39:50.139 --> 00:39:54.199 let universities or higher educations to speak 00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:57.960 up but as I mentioned in a better world this 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.639 kind of institutions should keep solidarity and 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.420 always stand by the side of the students especially 00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:10.110 those who are Coming from marginalized countries 00:40:10.110 --> 00:40:14.789 or groups or somehow displaced students. Of course, 00:40:14.789 --> 00:40:17.650 another important factor to my mind is always 00:40:17.650 --> 00:40:21.570 pick up. Never, never afraid to speak the truth 00:40:21.570 --> 00:40:26.150 and give a chance. Also, students, scholars write 00:40:26.150 --> 00:40:30.599 different papers on topics that are. not like 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:36.139 so popular and also holding seminars or conferences 00:40:36.139 --> 00:40:41.820 can be another way on that pathway. So I think 00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:44.659 that of course in this case schools and universities 00:40:44.659 --> 00:40:47.739 have huge responsibility but political pressure 00:40:47.739 --> 00:40:54.019 can sometimes be a huge difficulty for them and 00:40:54.019 --> 00:41:03.920 can be a big challenge. Sarah, what is the force 00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:09.579 of education? Education is seen in my eyes as 00:41:09.579 --> 00:41:13.059 a force for understanding generational history. 00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:17.340 We don't see it, but education is definitely 00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:20.360 the bridge between the past and the present. 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:24.440 It provides learners with the tools to discover 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:28.179 family stories, cultural traditions that essentially 00:41:28.179 --> 00:41:32.530 shaped. previous generations. And by studying 00:41:32.530 --> 00:41:35.909 history or literature in the classroom, students 00:41:35.909 --> 00:41:39.849 are able to gain empathy and context. They understand 00:41:39.849 --> 00:41:43.869 how decisions, struggles, and achievements shift 00:41:43.869 --> 00:41:46.670 across time. So how that changes through the 00:41:46.670 --> 00:41:50.530 generations. This deeper understanding helps 00:41:50.530 --> 00:41:54.329 communities preserve heritage. They learn from 00:41:54.329 --> 00:41:58.750 past injustices and they build more and more. 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.739 like an informed future where each generation 00:42:01.739 --> 00:42:07.260 can both honor and reflect that legacy as uh 00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:10.940 one of our guests kath kathleen golden and also 00:42:10.940 --> 00:42:14.500 if you're watching this kath you the goat Okay, 00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:17.760 I just want to put that out there. But she asks 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:21.639 us, how can one moment in time of my mother and 00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:25.900 my grandparents and their generation fuel a lifetime 00:42:25.900 --> 00:42:29.900 of work in my own life? And her question just 00:42:29.900 --> 00:42:33.900 captures what every child, what every young person 00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:37.860 around the world quietly wonders. How do these 00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:41.780 choices sacrifice? and story of those who come 00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:46.159 before become the raw material of our own purpose. 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.619 And through education, history, family narratives, 00:42:49.780 --> 00:42:53.280 we learn to trace those moments and connect them 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:56.039 to this broader understanding and shape them 00:42:56.039 --> 00:43:00.380 into an intentional action. When classrooms honor 00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:04.539 live experiences and teach students to ask generative 00:43:04.539 --> 00:43:08.480 questions, a single moment can indeed become 00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:11.159 a compass. And this compass essentially guides 00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:15.150 our careers. It guides activism. creative work 00:43:15.150 --> 00:43:18.730 and essentially our legacies. And I think that's 00:43:18.730 --> 00:43:24.429 very powerful. Generational history is something 00:43:24.429 --> 00:43:27.849 that we may have not known about throughout our 00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:32.139 lives. something that you might even learn in 00:43:32.139 --> 00:43:34.980 a textbook. And Kath actually speaks on that 00:43:34.980 --> 00:43:39.800 as well, how many people who had parents or grandparents 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:43.940 in the Japanese internment camps in the United 00:43:43.940 --> 00:43:47.480 States didn't even know that their family members 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:51.059 were in these camps until they read it in a textbook 00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:54.260 in their classroom. So that's something that 00:43:54.260 --> 00:43:58.019 I've always resonated with because I come from 00:43:58.019 --> 00:44:01.480 a Turkish background. And growing up, Turkish 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:04.360 was actually my first language. I took a lot 00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.920 of pride in being Turkish. And when I reached 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:11.360 my senior year of high school, I decided to take 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:14.940 a class named Holocaust and Genocide that changed 00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:18.920 my life forever. And my teacher was the best 00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:24.820 because he taught. And like injustice in a manner 00:44:24.820 --> 00:44:27.260 that no teacher taught that before. He was not 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:30.579 afraid to speak his truth. And I truly appreciated 00:44:30.579 --> 00:44:34.099 him. And he was the one that exposed me to the 00:44:34.099 --> 00:44:37.400 Armenian genocide. And I've never felt so ignorant 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:40.139 in my life. Learning about that and then going 00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:43.059 home to my parents and asking them about it. 00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:47.110 And then hearing them tell me that. They don't 00:44:47.110 --> 00:44:49.449 teach that in their schools when they were growing 00:44:49.449 --> 00:44:53.110 up back in Turkey. I was in a state of shock. 00:44:53.110 --> 00:44:56.929 I genuinely wanted to learn more. I wanted to 00:44:56.929 --> 00:45:00.409 do my part and educate kids and I would never 00:45:00.409 --> 00:45:03.409 want anyone to feel the way that I felt. So that's 00:45:03.409 --> 00:45:05.869 why I decided that I'm going to continue this 00:45:05.869 --> 00:45:09.929 long journey in education because again. That's 00:45:09.929 --> 00:45:12.809 something, a generational history that I learned 00:45:12.809 --> 00:45:14.730 through a textbook, something that was never 00:45:14.730 --> 00:45:17.110 taught to me, but it's something that's so important. 00:45:17.710 --> 00:45:23.210 And in a way, people don't feel like they're 00:45:23.210 --> 00:45:26.380 doing this. They do it intentionally. They try 00:45:26.380 --> 00:45:29.739 to erase that history by not speaking about it. 00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:32.579 And it's understandable. Sometimes it makes people 00:45:32.579 --> 00:45:35.659 feel uncomfortable. But to talk about it is to 00:45:35.659 --> 00:45:39.360 acknowledge that. So I do genuinely believe that, 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:44.510 yes, sometimes history can be. hurtful to talk 00:45:44.510 --> 00:45:47.309 about but it has to be talked about and it has 00:45:47.309 --> 00:45:51.650 to be taught and um educational systems that 00:45:51.650 --> 00:45:54.829 are kind of sheltering their students and not 00:45:54.829 --> 00:45:58.130 exposing them to you know these real life situations 00:45:58.130 --> 00:46:01.130 that have actually happened and impacted people 00:46:01.130 --> 00:46:05.210 and their generations to come is damaging to 00:46:05.210 --> 00:46:08.489 our youth so I feel like the sole purpose of 00:46:08.489 --> 00:46:12.900 education is to constantly educate our youth 00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:17.960 about generational history. Thank you for mentioning 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:20.599 about that. As an Armenian, I really appreciate 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.159 the things that you mentioned because I think 00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:26.659 it's really... demands courage to accept things 00:46:26.659 --> 00:46:31.420 as they happened and not everyone has that courage 00:46:31.420 --> 00:46:35.519 and not everyone is standing by the side of justice 00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.539 and always a lot of people are mentioning or 00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:44.320 finding other reasons why Armenian genocide happened 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:48.019 as if Armenians betrayed Turks or something like 00:46:48.019 --> 00:46:51.840 that or they worth it. So thank you for speaking 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:56.599 out on that. Yeah, and it's truly a shame because 00:46:56.599 --> 00:47:00.519 even if someone from a Turkish background wants 00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:04.139 to speak on it, they are automatically shunned 00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.480 from their own group. And that's something that 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.179 I've noticed too. It's trying to have conversations 00:47:10.179 --> 00:47:14.079 with my family that still live in Turkey. It's 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:18.260 like you feel shunned because you have this different... 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:22.460 and perspectives of them. And you seem like a 00:47:22.460 --> 00:47:24.880 like a Turk traitor, like, oh, you hate your 00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:27.940 own people. This is what you say about us and 00:47:27.940 --> 00:47:30.739 that we did these things. Like, how dare you? 00:47:30.820 --> 00:47:33.559 And it's like, no, it's you're acknowledging 00:47:33.559 --> 00:47:35.940 what happened. There's nothing wrong with acknowledgement. 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:42.119 It's just it's this weird type of. I don't know 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:44.579 if it's nationalism. I really don't know what 00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:48.099 it is. It's genocide denial. I just don't know 00:47:48.099 --> 00:47:51.900 how to explain it. And hopefully this is something 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:55.179 that the whole country can move past in the future. 00:47:55.219 --> 00:47:58.559 I hope so. I wonder if there's a bit of a both 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.860 tension and opportunity here because more of 00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:04.340 behind the scenes stuff. We spent the first. 00:48:04.940 --> 00:48:06.880 chunk of this class reading a bunch of frameworks 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:09.119 so that we could understand how education is 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.519 a form of social reproduction, education as capitalism. 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:15.239 And in the week that we did education as liberation, 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:17.900 we read Paulo Freire, who has a famous quote 00:48:17.900 --> 00:48:23.119 that is, education either functions as a way 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.179 of bringing the current generation into the logic 00:48:26.179 --> 00:48:29.539 of the previous generation, or it's a practice 00:48:29.539 --> 00:48:34.420 of freedom. And I wonder how... You might understand 00:48:34.420 --> 00:48:39.599 this idea of intergenerational learning and teaching 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:43.780 while also trying to change things. If it's trying 00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:45.900 to keep stories alive, trying to keep memories 00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:51.360 alive and honor the past and the people and communities 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:56.420 of that time, how do we do that while also challenging 00:48:56.420 --> 00:48:58.800 oppressive social conditions like the ones that 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:02.119 you're describing? And I don't want to create 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:06.179 a false dichotomy. I do wonder if maybe that's 00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:09.039 just what education does itself. But what do 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:12.820 you think, Sarah? This is such a great question. 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:17.059 Well, I do teach the older kids. So I guess my 00:49:17.059 --> 00:49:21.659 perspective does stem from the kind of teenage 00:49:21.659 --> 00:49:24.860 mind and how they perceive things and the information 00:49:24.860 --> 00:49:29.119 that's being fed to them. I do believe that you 00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:32.619 should always allow the student to form an opinion. 00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:39.960 So even though this is how I teach and this is 00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:45.059 how I educate those in my classroom, I will always 00:49:45.059 --> 00:49:48.679 leave space for students to mold their own minds 00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:52.210 and to come up with whatever. outcome they want 00:49:52.210 --> 00:49:54.929 whatever content they want to pick up and memorize 00:49:54.929 --> 00:49:58.590 for the rest of their lives i don't expect kids 00:49:58.590 --> 00:50:03.989 to remember like all of these tragic events right 00:50:03.989 --> 00:50:06.650 it's very sad to talk about especially if you 00:50:06.650 --> 00:50:08.789 take an elective course like holocaust and genocide 00:50:08.789 --> 00:50:11.530 right it's like you learn about so much like 00:50:11.530 --> 00:50:13.929 how much what what are you actually going to 00:50:13.929 --> 00:50:16.929 pick out and what's going to stick with you definitely 00:50:18.219 --> 00:50:21.860 I guess what I'm trying to say is giving the 00:50:21.860 --> 00:50:26.179 tools to our students and definitely making real 00:50:26.179 --> 00:50:28.840 life connections, like by real life, I mean, 00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:31.099 like in our world today, like, why does this 00:50:31.099 --> 00:50:33.179 apply to you? That's the one question that kids 00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:35.320 will ask. It's like, why do I need to learn about 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:37.619 this? This is something that happened many years 00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:41.449 ago before I was born. It's giving them that 00:50:41.449 --> 00:50:45.210 purpose to acknowledge the history and to essentially 00:50:45.210 --> 00:50:48.510 make that connection to their lives today. But 00:50:48.510 --> 00:50:52.429 also giving them the space like, hey, you will 00:50:52.429 --> 00:50:56.010 pick out what you deem to be important. That's 00:50:56.010 --> 00:50:58.289 what I did in high school. And I feel like that's 00:50:58.289 --> 00:51:00.409 what changed me the most. I didn't have a teacher 00:51:00.409 --> 00:51:04.030 that like wanted me to memorize specific like 00:51:04.030 --> 00:51:07.719 battles and specific. like colonizer names. You 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:10.559 know, I had a teacher who was like, you know, 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:12.440 we're going to have a quiz on this, but we're 00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:15.719 only going to spend X amount of time on it. And 00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:18.019 then we're going to do more of opinion based 00:51:18.019 --> 00:51:20.719 assignments, assignments where I can see what 00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.159 you think and the connections that you can make. 00:51:23.219 --> 00:51:26.320 So I hope I answered your question correctly. 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:30.739 But that's just important. You got to let these 00:51:30.739 --> 00:51:32.880 young minds create their own opinions. They're 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:35.219 already influenced by their parents, by their 00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:38.420 guardians. So it's like you are an adult figure 00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:43.619 that actually allows them to be them. So I find 00:51:43.619 --> 00:51:48.500 that to be important. Before we move on, I feel 00:51:48.500 --> 00:51:51.360 like we should always do this, but if you're 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.760 comfortable and you think they'd be comfortable, 00:51:52.940 --> 00:51:55.280 will you name that teacher? Oh my God, I'm going 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.119 to give myself away. I will. I'll name him. Okay. 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:01.800 No, I'll name him. He's probably not even listening. 00:52:02.059 --> 00:52:05.719 He's probably like, but his name is Tim Donnelly 00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:10.619 was his name. And I remember he, I visited him 00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:15.210 a couple of months ago. And I told him that like 00:52:15.210 --> 00:52:18.369 I was this was my degree, like I was mastering 00:52:18.369 --> 00:52:20.929 in this. And hopefully I'd get to take on the 00:52:20.929 --> 00:52:23.030 program in the high school that I work in. And 00:52:23.030 --> 00:52:27.269 it truly like I've never seen a teacher that 00:52:27.269 --> 00:52:29.889 emotional in my life. And he's a tough guy. He 00:52:29.889 --> 00:52:32.650 would start the class. But I remember he he would 00:52:32.650 --> 00:52:35.380 have this huge Fiji water. He would drink Fiji 00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:39.659 water every morning and the bell would ring to 00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:43.280 first period and he would scream at us at the 00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:45.880 loudest volume that he can reach. And then that's 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:47.739 how we would like start class. Like this man 00:52:47.739 --> 00:52:51.539 was scary. He would not play around. So he definitely 00:52:51.539 --> 00:52:54.440 changed my life. And not to mention, I did have 00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:57.340 an Armenian. theater teacher because I was a 00:52:57.340 --> 00:53:00.199 theater kid in high school and she was like a 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:03.199 second mother to me. And I also give her a lot 00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:06.679 of credit because she never made me feel like 00:53:06.679 --> 00:53:09.900 ignorant. She just constantly educated me and 00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:12.659 educated me about the topic. And she actually 00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:15.539 told me about how her grandparents were involved 00:53:15.539 --> 00:53:18.219 in the genocide. I will, this is going to like 00:53:18.219 --> 00:53:20.440 bring tears to my eyes. Like I would never forget 00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:24.090 this. She, she told me like, I know if Like in 00:53:24.090 --> 00:53:26.449 a past life, if that was us in that situation, 00:53:26.650 --> 00:53:29.210 like you would be the Turk that saved my family 00:53:29.210 --> 00:53:31.889 because there was a Turkish person who took her 00:53:31.889 --> 00:53:34.869 family. And like that, just I will never forget 00:53:34.869 --> 00:53:38.230 about that. Teachers, they need one, they need 00:53:38.230 --> 00:53:43.030 to get paid more. And two, they are really changing 00:53:43.030 --> 00:53:51.230 lives out here. That's for sure. Sam, what is 00:53:51.230 --> 00:53:56.079 the force of education? So picking education 00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:00.599 down to the bone, I think that education serves 00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:05.139 as language and is language in the sense that 00:54:05.139 --> 00:54:07.760 education is the means through which we find 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:10.760 the words, ideas, and concepts to explain the 00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:13.099 world around us. And depending on the education 00:54:13.099 --> 00:54:16.179 we receive, we may have wildly different languages 00:54:16.179 --> 00:54:19.179 or frameworks through which we perceive and understand 00:54:19.179 --> 00:54:24.019 the world. Thinking of certain indigenous languages, 00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:29.699 for example, they view the world through a sense 00:54:29.699 --> 00:54:33.400 of relationships to other objects versus English 00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:36.820 and a lot of other like European languages, for 00:54:36.820 --> 00:54:40.980 instance, use a language of ownership. And so 00:54:40.980 --> 00:54:44.039 that in itself is an educating force teaching 00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:49.059 us. the hierarchy of how we see ourselves in 00:54:49.059 --> 00:54:52.820 comparison to other objects and things and the 00:54:52.820 --> 00:54:58.900 earth itself. Also thinking about how other cultures 00:54:58.900 --> 00:55:03.119 see time, how other cultures see space. These 00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:07.280 possibilities are only available when we are 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:11.599 given the language to imagine them. And so depending 00:55:11.599 --> 00:55:15.710 on the language and education we are provided 00:55:15.710 --> 00:55:19.570 with that language, how we perceive the world 00:55:19.570 --> 00:55:24.750 can be very constrained or we can be opened up 00:55:24.750 --> 00:55:27.590 to more possibilities. And so thinking of our 00:55:27.590 --> 00:55:30.929 discussion with Dr. Harper Keenan. He really 00:55:30.929 --> 00:55:34.789 spoke to how education teaches us gendered, racialized, 00:55:34.809 --> 00:55:37.150 and embodied ways of thinking and being. And 00:55:37.150 --> 00:55:40.550 these create perceptions of normality and deviance, 00:55:40.550 --> 00:55:43.690 and these often aim to constrain and define our 00:55:43.690 --> 00:55:47.929 behaviors. And Dr. Noah Romero and Susan Baglieri's 00:55:47.929 --> 00:55:50.969 work, they acknowledge these tensions, but they 00:55:50.969 --> 00:55:54.469 also offer transformative educational potentials 00:55:54.469 --> 00:55:57.210 that often begin with the words we're using to 00:55:57.210 --> 00:55:59.750 describe ourselves and our relationships to other 00:55:59.750 --> 00:56:01.800 people. people and cultures in the world more 00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:07.219 broadly and the world more broadly and so without 00:56:07.219 --> 00:56:09.840 some form of language we are unable to learn 00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:14.579 understand or educate other people why even spoke 00:56:14.579 --> 00:56:20.340 within her piece of this episode about like rhetorical 00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:22.940 strategies used when speaking about Palestinians 00:56:22.940 --> 00:56:27.579 or passive language all of these forms of language 00:56:27.579 --> 00:56:33.780 can inform how we are educated in very subliminal 00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:37.980 and conscious ways once we realize the impacts 00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:41.880 that they are having upon us. And so I think 00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:45.320 language can be very constraining and make it 00:56:45.320 --> 00:56:50.320 difficult to imagine new worlds or new possibilities. 00:56:52.030 --> 00:56:55.469 It can also create radically different understandings 00:56:55.469 --> 00:56:58.010 of the world and our relationships with people 00:56:58.010 --> 00:57:01.389 within that world. And these understandings are 00:57:01.389 --> 00:57:05.829 constantly emerging and persisting despite injustices 00:57:05.829 --> 00:57:09.230 and suppression. Yes, Sam, I really resonated 00:57:09.230 --> 00:57:12.530 with what you were saying. So I just had a question. 00:57:12.650 --> 00:57:15.170 It's a little bit more on the personal side because 00:57:15.170 --> 00:57:18.150 I know it has. affected me and my educational 00:57:18.150 --> 00:57:21.090 experiences, but do you think the language that 00:57:21.090 --> 00:57:24.269 you were exposed to during your educational experiences 00:57:24.269 --> 00:57:27.210 shaped how you viewed yourself both inside and 00:57:27.210 --> 00:57:32.409 outside of those spaces? For sure. I think my 00:57:32.409 --> 00:57:36.949 APUSH teacher, so my AP US history teacher, Chad 00:57:36.949 --> 00:57:39.630 Brady, I don't think he would be listening, but 00:57:39.630 --> 00:57:44.909 if you're out there still, he... had us read 00:57:44.909 --> 00:57:48.710 the textbook material for the AP U .S. History 00:57:48.710 --> 00:57:51.630 class. And then he also had us read Howard Zinn 00:57:51.630 --> 00:57:54.730 of People's History of the United States. And 00:57:54.730 --> 00:57:57.610 that was really transformative for me because 00:57:57.610 --> 00:58:03.349 it was a blatant exposure of how the same story 00:58:03.349 --> 00:58:06.150 could be told in two radically different ways 00:58:06.150 --> 00:58:09.489 with central components, like completely erased 00:58:09.489 --> 00:58:14.559 certain people's like. created into these stereotypes. 00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:17.719 With him bringing together these counter narratives 00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:21.480 in many ways, it allowed me to create my own 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.639 understanding and educate myself on how language 00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:27.280 could really influence my perception of these 00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:31.260 events and see how different rhetorical strategies 00:58:31.260 --> 00:58:37.489 and propaganda in many ways can create. different 00:58:37.489 --> 00:58:41.590 portrayals of history and world events as we 00:58:41.590 --> 00:58:45.469 know it I think largely outside of the classroom 00:58:45.469 --> 00:58:51.369 in my theater classes I took drama classes drama 00:58:51.369 --> 00:58:55.349 nerds unite and also as part of the theater department 00:58:55.349 --> 00:58:59.620 but I think there was a really large resistance 00:58:59.620 --> 00:59:04.739 and activist space within those. We did the play 00:59:04.739 --> 00:59:08.440 To Kill a Mockingbird my sophomore year when 00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:12.059 the Ferguson protests were happening and when 00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:15.599 the Black Lives Matter protests and the die -ins 00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:18.400 and things were happening. And so we used that 00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:22.360 as a space to, we did a die -in at the beginning 00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:28.639 of our play. And we also had different peoples 00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:31.900 on trial during like the trial. And so in the 00:59:31.900 --> 00:59:36.199 background, we had refugees, we had LGBTQ people, 00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:40.460 we had all assortments of people that have been 00:59:40.460 --> 00:59:42.739 discriminated against and targeted by the US. 00:59:43.019 --> 00:59:46.840 And so I think this alternative space that the 00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:51.300 theater department provided allowed me to utilize 00:59:52.250 --> 00:59:54.329 language in a different way it helped me develop 00:59:54.329 --> 00:59:57.630 that activist language but also the visual component 00:59:57.630 --> 01:00:00.110 of that language as well because language is 01:00:00.110 --> 01:00:03.730 not just like words what is written but also 01:00:03.730 --> 01:00:07.829 what is said whether that is through an image 01:00:07.829 --> 01:00:11.610 or a video as a theater kid I'm so jealous that 01:00:11.610 --> 01:00:15.349 show sounded really really cool it was a really 01:00:15.349 --> 01:00:18.820 really cool show like the side note but um Instead 01:00:18.820 --> 01:00:22.280 of having the audience in the traditional theater 01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:26.619 seats, we brought the state we brought the audience 01:00:26.619 --> 01:00:29.260 onto the stage and so they were part of like 01:00:29.260 --> 01:00:32.820 the courtroom for example and so they had like 01:00:32.820 --> 01:00:36.340 risers that they sat on that were on stage and 01:00:36.340 --> 01:00:39.099 so they got like this personal up -close view 01:00:39.099 --> 01:00:41.780 of everything that was happening and so it was 01:00:41.780 --> 01:00:44.579 it was really amazing to see like one he was 01:00:44.579 --> 01:00:47.159 pushing the boundaries shout out Topher Barrett 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.679 I know this part will be cut but I still have 01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:53.570 to shout him out he was a wild man but he helped 01:00:53.570 --> 01:00:55.710 transform things in a lot of radical ways in 01:00:55.710 --> 01:00:57.449 my mind just seeing like what could be done with 01:00:57.449 --> 01:00:59.610 theater space and with visuals and incorporating 01:00:59.610 --> 01:01:02.250 the audience to make them feel uncomfortable 01:01:02.250 --> 01:01:04.829 in ways that they couldn't escape because you 01:01:04.829 --> 01:01:07.550 can't when you're right on stage and an actor 01:01:07.550 --> 01:01:11.130 is a foot away from you there's you have to contend 01:01:11.130 --> 01:01:14.750 with that so it was very cool and we definitely 01:01:14.750 --> 01:01:24.489 don't have to cut that part All right. It's going 01:01:24.489 --> 01:01:29.190 to be cheesy, but it's a way to bring us together. 01:01:29.489 --> 01:01:33.210 Do you all want to hear my answer? Okay. So I 01:01:33.210 --> 01:01:39.809 see education as movement. And I mean that in 01:01:39.809 --> 01:01:42.650 every possible way that I could think of that 01:01:42.650 --> 01:01:44.070 term. If we're thinking about, we've talked a 01:01:44.070 --> 01:01:47.010 lot about social movements in this class. I think 01:01:47.010 --> 01:01:49.849 about education driving social movements just 01:01:49.849 --> 01:01:54.409 as activism. informs educational work in the 01:01:54.409 --> 01:01:57.269 material sense. I think that people move toward 01:01:57.269 --> 01:02:01.869 education and they move for education, right? 01:02:01.909 --> 01:02:05.269 That means thinking about kids who live in Mexico 01:02:05.269 --> 01:02:09.230 and cross the border for school every day. As 01:02:09.230 --> 01:02:12.050 Y pointed out earlier, it means Palestinian kids 01:02:12.050 --> 01:02:16.909 who wait in really violent checkpoints and have 01:02:16.909 --> 01:02:20.489 to navigate borders every day while going to 01:02:20.489 --> 01:02:23.510 school. This might be a preview of some things 01:02:23.510 --> 01:02:26.010 we'll talk about soon, but the idea of building 01:02:26.010 --> 01:02:29.889 a world without borders is educational itself. 01:02:30.650 --> 01:02:35.150 But I bring this up more to think about it in 01:02:35.150 --> 01:02:37.889 an affective and intellectual sense. The idea 01:02:37.889 --> 01:02:42.349 that education moves you. It moves you to become 01:02:42.349 --> 01:02:46.190 someone else, to think in new ways, to be different 01:02:46.190 --> 01:02:48.510 than you were before, to hold different positions 01:02:48.510 --> 01:02:51.440 than you had before. And it even moves you to 01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:55.659 affirm positions, right? And in doing so to become 01:02:55.659 --> 01:02:59.800 someone else or to re -become yourself. And so 01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:02.800 my question for you all, whether we include this 01:03:02.800 --> 01:03:06.119 or not, and you can ignore this podcast, you 01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:09.360 can ignore this class, or maybe like you can 01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:12.079 include it. Don't just be, just don't be stuck 01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:14.519 in it and don't be held to Stockton. Don't be 01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:17.579 held to formal institutions as you all have so 01:03:17.579 --> 01:03:20.440 beautifully pointed out. But think with your 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:23.380 friends, think with family, think with non -human. 01:03:23.619 --> 01:03:26.880 We love in this class how animals come in, how 01:03:26.880 --> 01:03:29.460 Star Wars posters come in. Think with everything 01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:32.099 in life. Over the course of our time together, 01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:34.539 over the course of the last, well, we actually 01:03:34.539 --> 01:03:36.099 started working together before the semester 01:03:36.099 --> 01:03:37.699 to make sure that everybody was on board. So 01:03:37.699 --> 01:03:43.380 let's say from May of 2025 until this moment, 01:03:43.420 --> 01:03:44.960 we're recording in the middle of December of 01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:48.980 2025. How has education moved you? How have you 01:03:48.980 --> 01:03:54.179 been moved by education? Yeah, I mean. I think 01:03:54.179 --> 01:03:57.719 at least from what I've experienced this semester, 01:03:57.980 --> 01:04:01.360 this is, I think, the most I've been able to 01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:04.860 interact with my education and have a conversation. 01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:08.539 And I found myself starting off being really 01:04:08.539 --> 01:04:12.199 nervous to put my opinion into these discussions. 01:04:12.260 --> 01:04:15.369 And it's like, well, no, that's. The point is 01:04:15.369 --> 01:04:17.750 you're supposed to talk, put your viewpoint, 01:04:17.829 --> 01:04:19.909 listen to other people's viewpoint. And I think 01:04:19.909 --> 01:04:23.710 that's how education moved me. The shame that 01:04:23.710 --> 01:04:25.230 I had in being like, oh, well, what if nobody 01:04:25.230 --> 01:04:28.050 agrees with my opinion is kind of gone and it's 01:04:28.050 --> 01:04:30.650 allowed me to have more open conversations. Do 01:04:30.650 --> 01:04:34.409 you see that as like, so we didn't read this 01:04:34.409 --> 01:04:38.079 and it's still at work? I highly recommend a 01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.760 book called We Make the Road by Walking. It's 01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:43.739 Apollo Freire, but with very famous, this guy, 01:04:43.780 --> 01:04:46.960 Miles Horton, who trained like Rosa Parks and 01:04:46.960 --> 01:04:49.440 Martin Luther King. And it's what they called 01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:52.599 a talking book. I bring that up not to talk about 01:04:52.599 --> 01:04:55.219 that book, but instead to say that we often think 01:04:55.219 --> 01:04:57.420 of education as a path that's been laid out for 01:04:57.420 --> 01:04:59.280 us, right? We walk the path that somebody has 01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.639 carved. The curriculum is what the teacher makes 01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:04.420 and your job is just to do that. And you're saying 01:05:04.420 --> 01:05:07.010 like, I'm trying to stick with the metaphor of 01:05:07.010 --> 01:05:10.869 movement, but you're now forging like what has 01:05:10.869 --> 01:05:14.190 moved you is to go off of that. I'm just using 01:05:14.190 --> 01:05:18.170 really trite. What has moved you? How are you 01:05:18.170 --> 01:05:21.050 forging your own path? All the all the cliches. 01:05:21.050 --> 01:05:23.849 But I mean, in a more profound way, it sounds 01:05:23.849 --> 01:05:26.110 like that's what you're saying. And I'll just 01:05:26.110 --> 01:05:29.849 note that there is a thumbs up that is. I keep 01:05:29.849 --> 01:05:32.190 forgetting that nobody can see the thumbs up. 01:05:32.550 --> 01:05:35.730 Through the podcast, through the Zoom, we can 01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:39.389 feel the thumbs up. Yeah, Sarah, what do you 01:05:39.389 --> 01:05:44.869 think? I definitely became less judgmental of 01:05:44.869 --> 01:05:49.389 people when it comes to an educational setting 01:05:49.389 --> 01:05:52.940 and their level of education. This doesn't apply 01:05:52.940 --> 01:05:56.260 to my students, by the way. This applies to grown 01:05:56.260 --> 01:06:01.219 adults. I feel like I hold adults to a higher 01:06:01.219 --> 01:06:05.679 standard and I'm always like so mad at myself 01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:08.559 when those standards aren't met. But I've become 01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:14.179 less judgmental in the fact that education doesn't 01:06:14.179 --> 01:06:18.090 mean what level degree you have. That means nothing. 01:06:18.570 --> 01:06:23.829 And we've talked to so many people who have experienced 01:06:23.829 --> 01:06:26.969 education on different levels, whether it's like 01:06:26.969 --> 01:06:29.869 a community -based education, cultural -based 01:06:29.869 --> 01:06:34.000 education. Um, whether it's like for the good 01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:39.139 or the bad. So, um, definitely not. I've been 01:06:39.139 --> 01:06:42.000 using it on every little thing, actually, believe 01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:45.219 it or not. You might be saying, oh my gosh, like 01:06:45.219 --> 01:06:47.800 you think about this class outside of, yes, I 01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:51.000 actually do. I actually rewatched my favorite 01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:54.780 show, Mindhunter, one of my favorite shows. And 01:06:54.780 --> 01:06:57.059 if anyone is looking for a good show to binge, 01:06:57.199 --> 01:06:59.760 definitely watch Mindhunter on Netflix. But. 01:07:00.219 --> 01:07:02.420 The main premise, I'm just going to relate it 01:07:02.420 --> 01:07:05.519 to like TV real quick and how I use this class 01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:09.380 to kind of like connect to the show. But basically, 01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:13.139 it's about how the FBI starts their behavioral 01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:16.760 science unit and how they start interviewing 01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:20.539 these like serial killers. And everyone around 01:07:20.539 --> 01:07:22.920 them is like, why are you doing this? It's a 01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:25.000 waste of time. Like these people are monsters. 01:07:25.900 --> 01:07:28.380 The unit is like, no, no, no. Like we understand 01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:32.099 that, but there's something to this. And it kind 01:07:32.099 --> 01:07:34.719 of relates to like my generational history too. 01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:37.519 Like every time they interview these people who 01:07:37.519 --> 01:07:39.980 committed these like horrible, horrible acts, 01:07:40.219 --> 01:07:44.400 there is a trend. There's like this, this type 01:07:44.400 --> 01:07:48.000 of education that they get, not to say like in 01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:51.800 a school system, but in their homes. And like, 01:07:51.840 --> 01:07:53.500 I was like sitting there watching this. I'm like, 01:07:53.579 --> 01:07:57.559 wow. it's all making sense now like these people 01:07:57.559 --> 01:08:01.280 aren't monsters like I'm not trying to justify 01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:04.440 them they're they're humans like I feel like 01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:07.659 by calling them monsters we're giving them like 01:08:07.659 --> 01:08:11.079 the the past to be like not be okay with what 01:08:11.079 --> 01:08:13.380 they did but to be like yeah it's expected out 01:08:13.380 --> 01:08:16.340 of monsters but I like I don't know does anyone 01:08:16.340 --> 01:08:18.680 get what I'm trying to say you're like oh wow 01:08:18.680 --> 01:08:21.979 everything is so different now because education 01:08:21.979 --> 01:08:25.720 is just more than the school system that we're 01:08:25.720 --> 01:08:28.859 used to. But yes, I just want to make that connection. 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:31.479 First off, if you didn't see in the chat, I said, 01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:34.300 we need a campaign to get a season three, but 01:08:34.300 --> 01:08:37.460 also it sounds like what you're saying is that 01:08:37.460 --> 01:08:42.779 we have these kind of taken for granted and very 01:08:42.779 --> 01:08:45.960 abstract ways of thinking about things. Oh, it 01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:48.659 was a genocide. It happened, right? Like these 01:08:48.659 --> 01:08:52.800 things that are assumed to be natural. And without 01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:57.119 interrogating them, we open up space to let them 01:08:57.119 --> 01:08:59.859 just happen again and again and assume that, 01:08:59.939 --> 01:09:03.859 yeah, it's fine if they happen. I'm not going 01:09:03.859 --> 01:09:07.579 to make this about gun control and all that in 01:09:07.579 --> 01:09:09.479 the US, but I always hear that argument of like, 01:09:09.579 --> 01:09:11.439 well, what are we going to do? It's like, well, 01:09:11.539 --> 01:09:19.439 do something. Yeah. Why? I want to talk about 01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:24.159 my experience during this semester. This is my 01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:26.420 second semester in the program, and I actually 01:09:26.420 --> 01:09:31.119 appreciate how the professors gave me the opportunity 01:09:31.119 --> 01:09:36.079 to open up and talk openly about my political 01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:40.260 views, especially that it's very sensitive to 01:09:40.260 --> 01:09:43.979 talk about our cause as Palestinians. What I 01:09:43.979 --> 01:09:47.430 really like the most here is that how education 01:09:47.430 --> 01:09:51.529 is not about memorizing facts but it's about 01:09:51.529 --> 01:09:55.050 how you think in a critical way how you reflect 01:09:55.050 --> 01:09:59.050 on things how you start to question everything 01:09:59.050 --> 01:10:02.569 how you relate and how you give examples and 01:10:02.569 --> 01:10:06.750 how you analyze every piece of information and 01:10:06.750 --> 01:10:10.529 what I really like is that in all classes I always 01:10:10.529 --> 01:10:13.649 feel valued appreciated I don't have any fear 01:10:13.649 --> 01:10:17.270 to talk about anything and even sometimes like 01:10:17.270 --> 01:10:20.010 at first I used to feel oh somebody's gonna touch 01:10:20.010 --> 01:10:22.109 me because I don't know this because I have like 01:10:22.109 --> 01:10:24.609 I come from a different background English is 01:10:24.609 --> 01:10:28.369 not my native language but day by day and after 01:10:28.369 --> 01:10:32.930 each class I started to like abandon those fears 01:10:32.930 --> 01:10:35.989 and talk more and be more involved in classes 01:10:35.989 --> 01:10:41.270 and what I really think education is about is 01:10:41.270 --> 01:10:46.829 for me Education is what happens after you finish 01:10:46.829 --> 01:10:51.130 your classes. It's about how you put those lessons 01:10:51.130 --> 01:10:55.210 into your real life situation. It could be through 01:10:55.210 --> 01:10:58.470 a conversation with your friend, a small talk 01:10:58.470 --> 01:11:03.289 with my kids. It could be through like writing 01:11:03.289 --> 01:11:07.449 something or reflecting on something. So it really, 01:11:07.770 --> 01:11:11.029 for me, it is what happens after I finish the 01:11:11.029 --> 01:11:14.699 class. Every time I finish the class, I keep 01:11:14.699 --> 01:11:17.439 thinking, like a lot of ideas just pop up into 01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:20.880 my head. And then I start to share them with 01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:24.199 my husband, my kids, and my friends. I go a lot 01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:27.739 with Aliyah and Bryn, by the way. And during 01:11:27.739 --> 01:11:30.460 our conversations, we start to exchange everything. 01:11:30.579 --> 01:11:34.119 And then I always realize that there are a lot 01:11:34.119 --> 01:11:38.880 of things I still don't know, but still, these 01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:44.000 are great opportunities. for me to learn in an 01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:47.460 informal way. Yeah, I love that. Somebody who 01:11:47.460 --> 01:11:50.079 I wanted to have on the podcast is an amazing 01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:54.800 anthropologist. She's, I don't want to say old. 01:11:55.039 --> 01:11:58.840 She's much older now. Shirley Bryce Heath has 01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:01.579 this thing where she talks about like the greatest 01:12:01.579 --> 01:12:06.319 education is folks, shout out fellow theater 01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:09.899 nerds. leaving the theater and just walking home 01:12:09.899 --> 01:12:11.680 and talking about it, right. Going to a museum. 01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:14.720 And when you walk home and yeah, I have, I always 01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:16.800 have this feeling on Thursday nights when we 01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:19.420 finished class where I'm like, I am so Thursday, 01:12:19.500 --> 01:12:21.500 Tuesdays and Thursdays are so long. I know they 01:12:21.500 --> 01:12:24.979 are for all of us. And I have this kind of mix 01:12:24.979 --> 01:12:28.079 where I'm like, I'm so tired and also so amped 01:12:28.079 --> 01:12:30.500 up. And it's like, I just like buzzing with ideas 01:12:30.500 --> 01:12:32.560 and you want to process and think about, and 01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:35.760 yeah, it's, it's that second part, right. It's 01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:38.600 after you, finish the article you're like oh 01:12:38.600 --> 01:12:41.140 i want to i want to digest this and think about 01:12:41.140 --> 01:12:44.399 this and yeah i i love that and i think that 01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:46.500 maybe that's why i keep hitting on like that 01:12:46.500 --> 01:12:48.619 my favorite part of this podcast is the part 01:12:48.619 --> 01:12:51.039 that doesn't appear it's after we take a little 01:12:51.039 --> 01:12:53.140 break and the guest leaves and then we all come 01:12:53.140 --> 01:12:55.460 back together and and what happens there and 01:12:55.460 --> 01:12:58.760 shout out to former education genocide liberation 01:12:58.760 --> 01:13:03.260 students alia and ren i think one thing this 01:13:03.260 --> 01:13:06.359 class the whole process has really solidified. 01:13:06.399 --> 01:13:11.699 And it also ties into just my journey with my 01:13:11.699 --> 01:13:14.880 own like medical issues. Like I've been pretty 01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:17.840 straightforward with the class and on the podcast 01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:20.960 that I have narcolepsy along with some other 01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:26.140 immune and mental health issues that have made 01:13:26.140 --> 01:13:29.460 life a lot more challenging the past few years. 01:13:31.189 --> 01:13:35.189 with our last conversation with Sue, but also 01:13:35.189 --> 01:13:38.449 in so many conversations that we've had. And 01:13:38.449 --> 01:13:43.369 it really comes down to the communities that 01:13:43.369 --> 01:13:45.630 are formed and the conversations that are being 01:13:45.630 --> 01:13:50.890 had. And the format of this class really allows, 01:13:51.130 --> 01:13:54.109 I think, everybody to participate in a meaningful 01:13:54.109 --> 01:13:57.510 way, like to feel more comfortable in participating. 01:13:59.430 --> 01:14:04.350 to have conversations in the field that align 01:14:04.350 --> 01:14:10.310 with our own interests and aren't just us reading 01:14:10.310 --> 01:14:14.090 pages memorizing concepts and ideas and then 01:14:14.090 --> 01:14:17.430 regurgitating information and hoping that we 01:14:17.430 --> 01:14:20.890 have the right answers that you want us to have 01:14:20.890 --> 01:14:26.079 about those materials and so I think this class 01:14:26.079 --> 01:14:29.960 in the best ways has allowed for a more collective 01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:33.000 idea of education to form where it isn't the 01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:36.119 super individual sense of, I need to do, I need 01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:38.779 to get my grades up. I need to do all of these 01:14:38.779 --> 01:14:42.140 things on my own, but instead like on a foundation 01:14:42.140 --> 01:14:45.000 level, I am working with other scholars. Like 01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:50.399 I am interviewing other people. I need to. try 01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:54.220 to contribute things that are going to be valuable 01:14:54.220 --> 01:14:58.520 and stimulate an interesting conversation. I 01:14:58.520 --> 01:15:01.260 think one of the things the U .S. lacks the most 01:15:01.260 --> 01:15:06.039 is an understanding of how to create communities 01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:12.659 of care and how those movements occur. And this 01:15:12.659 --> 01:15:18.000 class emphasizes in many ways how to do that 01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:21.039 and how to start those relationships. And the 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:23.020 beginning of that is just having conversations 01:15:23.020 --> 01:15:28.579 rather than a very one -sided relationship to 01:15:28.579 --> 01:15:31.899 education and learning. Yeah. And Sam, I think 01:15:31.899 --> 01:15:34.279 on the flip side of that, it's required us to 01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:37.699 also, or no, on the same side of that, it's required 01:15:37.699 --> 01:15:40.260 us all to say like, hey, like we're all relying 01:15:40.260 --> 01:15:41.960 on each other and we're all caring for each other, 01:15:42.039 --> 01:15:44.119 which here it's not romanticizing, I do think. 01:15:44.680 --> 01:15:47.399 This is like far and away the best teaching experience 01:15:47.399 --> 01:15:52.619 I've had in a university classroom. But that 01:15:52.619 --> 01:15:54.819 doesn't mean that it wasn't without struggle 01:15:54.819 --> 01:16:00.060 for all of us. And what it means to build a space 01:16:00.060 --> 01:16:04.939 of collective care is to make that possible, 01:16:05.140 --> 01:16:08.500 as I think you shared. Maybe something I would 01:16:08.500 --> 01:16:14.800 like to add also about propaganda. So I know 01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:18.920 that education is also propaganda, but I did 01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:24.039 not take it too deep that education can be that 01:16:24.039 --> 01:16:27.640 much propaganda. For example, also in case of 01:16:27.640 --> 01:16:31.060 American history, because I'm not native here, 01:16:31.180 --> 01:16:34.640 I do not know a lot. And some usual facts that 01:16:34.640 --> 01:16:38.380 we were taught at schools about. Columbus about 01:16:38.380 --> 01:16:43.140 American Revolution or something like this. So 01:16:43.140 --> 01:16:47.659 this class gave me ideas on how to look different 01:16:47.659 --> 01:16:51.000 sides of American history also. And I decided 01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:57.279 to read a little more about that and to compare 01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:00.500 different sides. Because as far as I'm living 01:17:00.500 --> 01:17:04.060 here, I have to know some basic facts and some 01:17:04.060 --> 01:17:07.689 things related to that. Of course, I will do 01:17:07.689 --> 01:17:11.210 my best not to be a side of propaganda. That's 01:17:11.210 --> 01:17:15.109 great. And I'm glad we got a little visitor who's 01:17:15.109 --> 01:17:17.789 with us during class. Are you reading anything? 01:17:17.890 --> 01:17:20.090 I heard somebody earlier mention Howard Zinn. 01:17:20.170 --> 01:17:22.930 Are you reading anything in particular exploring 01:17:22.930 --> 01:17:25.609 these different sides? No, just for example, 01:17:25.789 --> 01:17:28.829 I've been reading, for example, about Thanksgiving 01:17:28.829 --> 01:17:34.199 because I was interested how it was presented, 01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:36.779 but what was the story behind it? And it was 01:17:36.779 --> 01:17:40.600 so difficult for me to find, how to say, like 01:17:40.600 --> 01:17:43.859 real history behind it, because it's like standard 01:17:43.859 --> 01:17:46.960 things everywhere written. But when you try to 01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:51.119 find something more deep and something more from 01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:54.880 another side, it's very difficult. Just finding 01:17:54.880 --> 01:17:57.939 some aspects, not something typical, but if you 01:17:57.939 --> 01:18:01.359 have some suggestions. I would love to know. 01:18:01.859 --> 01:18:04.939 Yeah, we can talk outside of class podcast, but 01:18:04.939 --> 01:18:09.640 yeah, I love that. Which also brings in the difficulty 01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:13.300 of going, if you feel moved and compelled to 01:18:13.300 --> 01:18:17.060 go beyond that, how you have to then know where 01:18:17.060 --> 01:18:19.819 to go. How do you find anti -colonial history 01:18:19.819 --> 01:18:23.520 when all of US history is the history of settler 01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:26.899 colonialism? Can I say something that might not 01:18:26.899 --> 01:18:29.359 be relevant to what we're discussing? The most 01:18:29.359 --> 01:18:33.739 difficult moment for me was that when we went 01:18:33.739 --> 01:18:38.140 to school and my kids were wondering why we don't 01:18:38.140 --> 01:18:40.880 have a Palestinian flag in their school. There 01:18:40.880 --> 01:18:44.300 were like a big hall that has all of the flags 01:18:44.300 --> 01:18:48.420 of all countries and ours was not in there. And 01:18:48.420 --> 01:18:51.619 we also went to an international, the international 01:18:51.619 --> 01:18:55.020 student event here in Stockton and I took them 01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:59.079 with me. And there were a lot of flags scattered 01:18:59.079 --> 01:19:03.699 all around. And then they told me, like, they 01:19:03.699 --> 01:19:05.579 were looking for the Palestinian flag. And I 01:19:05.579 --> 01:19:08.020 really, until now, I don't know what to tell 01:19:08.020 --> 01:19:10.859 them or how to explain that to them, because 01:19:10.859 --> 01:19:13.439 they would always come back from school asking 01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:18.640 me about it, especially in schools here. I don't 01:19:18.640 --> 01:19:21.380 know. I don't know. Since you are an educator, 01:19:21.579 --> 01:19:24.720 I don't know what to tell them, to be honest 01:19:24.720 --> 01:19:27.199 with you. It's hard because they're a certain 01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:28.760 age. How are you going to explain, oh, well, 01:19:28.899 --> 01:19:32.840 this is how the United States is a settler colony 01:19:32.840 --> 01:19:37.020 that has created a proxy state that is this Zionist 01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:39.500 entity that is engaged in a hundred years war. 01:19:40.260 --> 01:19:43.500 It becomes really difficult. I don't want to 01:19:43.500 --> 01:19:45.779 make an easy answer. I do want to hear from everybody. 01:19:45.859 --> 01:19:50.439 And I do have some ideas. I will also say, come 01:19:50.439 --> 01:19:55.039 visit my office. You'll be able to see some Palestinian 01:19:55.039 --> 01:20:00.979 flags on some select faculty members' doors. 01:20:01.319 --> 01:20:04.600 Dr. Adam was telling me when I told him about 01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:07.020 this. He told me, okay, next time I'm bringing 01:20:07.020 --> 01:20:09.359 a lot of Palestinian flags and then you can give 01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:13.819 it to them as a gift. I think I've really taken 01:20:13.819 --> 01:20:18.229 that out of this course with how I've... Obviously, 01:20:18.229 --> 01:20:20.890 I have a more radical view of education, expanding 01:20:20.890 --> 01:20:24.310 the frontier of the rebellion. But I've really 01:20:24.310 --> 01:20:29.310 come to value other things that I didn't value 01:20:29.310 --> 01:20:36.489 before. Hobbies, communities, even just small 01:20:36.489 --> 01:20:40.189 things that I didn't think were anything meaningful. 01:20:40.189 --> 01:20:42.569 But now I kind of view them more in a different 01:20:42.569 --> 01:20:47.729 light, really appreciating that. This isn't just 01:20:47.729 --> 01:20:52.130 me showing my brother a cool video. This is me 01:20:52.130 --> 01:20:55.229 in a way helping to educate him on certain things. 01:20:56.449 --> 01:20:59.930 Even just like the play I do with him. I guess 01:20:59.930 --> 01:21:03.989 he's a younger kid. He's on the spectrum. And 01:21:03.989 --> 01:21:08.670 it's very hard to teach him the way I was taught. 01:21:09.649 --> 01:21:15.079 So I've had to try and find... What I originally 01:21:15.079 --> 01:21:17.520 did was try to find different ways of modifying 01:21:17.520 --> 01:21:22.479 what I had been taught so it fits him. But the 01:21:22.479 --> 01:21:26.760 more I interact with him, the more I'm like, 01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:31.399 I'm not going to be as hard on him if he can't 01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:34.539 do it. Because he's making strides in other places. 01:21:34.619 --> 01:21:39.880 He has complex thoughts. And even through his 01:21:39.880 --> 01:21:43.579 own activities, he's educating himself. He educates 01:21:43.579 --> 01:21:46.079 himself with his manners. He somehow learned 01:21:46.079 --> 01:21:48.960 video editing through watching YouTube. I didn't 01:21:48.960 --> 01:21:51.640 know that. I was very surprised when he showed 01:21:51.640 --> 01:21:54.020 me his tablet. He was like, look, I made a stop 01:21:54.020 --> 01:22:00.279 motion video. And, you know, my parents are discouraged 01:22:00.279 --> 01:22:02.960 saying that, oh, he's just running his brains. 01:22:03.020 --> 01:22:05.399 Like, no, he's actually making some connections 01:22:05.399 --> 01:22:09.180 here. And just because he can't do the traditional. 01:22:09.869 --> 01:22:12.050 you know, multiplication tables. He struggles 01:22:12.050 --> 01:22:14.710 to add very different numbers or very large numbers. 01:22:15.689 --> 01:22:18.590 That doesn't mean he's not being educated. I 01:22:18.590 --> 01:22:21.069 love the idea of like your movement is to see 01:22:21.069 --> 01:22:25.869 yourself as an educator and to see the work that 01:22:25.869 --> 01:22:29.090 you're doing with your sibling as educative. 01:22:30.489 --> 01:22:35.210 And my favorite thing, which is that education 01:22:35.210 --> 01:22:39.340 can also be like just kind of messing around 01:22:39.340 --> 01:22:44.000 in a waste, right? We live in this hyperproductive 01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:47.579 society where everything has to be, do this, 01:22:47.739 --> 01:22:53.319 make this, generate this. And since Sam brought 01:22:53.319 --> 01:22:55.560 up collective care, I think one of the biggest 01:22:55.560 --> 01:23:00.699 forms of collective care is to rest, chill. So 01:23:00.699 --> 01:23:05.649 let's keep the conversation going. Thank you 01:23:05.649 --> 01:23:08.630 so much for listening today. And thank you to 01:23:08.630 --> 01:23:11.750 everyone who listened to episodes across the 01:23:11.750 --> 01:23:14.850 last two seasons. Thank you to all of our guests, 01:23:14.989 --> 01:23:18.569 to the students who helped co -produce and host 01:23:18.569 --> 01:23:22.130 and make this second season possible. Thank you 01:23:22.130 --> 01:23:25.390 especially to Sam and Yardane who produced the 01:23:25.390 --> 01:23:29.550 first season with me. We're thankful for all 01:23:29.550 --> 01:23:33.630 of you coming to the show and listening and commenting 01:23:33.630 --> 01:23:36.250 and engaging. And we're not sure if we'll be 01:23:36.250 --> 01:23:39.869 back, but we will keep studying and struggling, 01:23:39.909 --> 01:23:43.970 finding a way to build other kinds of education 01:23:43.970 --> 01:23:47.689 and practicing the idea of this podcast that 01:23:47.689 --> 01:23:49.250 another education is possible.