1 00:00:05,330 --> 00:00:13,550 It does us a lot of good to read a book on prayer every couple of years, I think, because the Christian life, if it's anything, is a praying life. 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:25,910 And if your praying life is anything like mine, you do need the occasional reminder and encouragement to keep praying or to start praying again after an overly busy or overly anxious period of life. 3 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,720 And I have the book for you: it's by Peter Adam. 4 00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:32,090 It's simply called Prayerfulness. 5 00:00:32,689 --> 00:00:47,870 And perhaps I'm suffering from recency bias, but it's the best book on prayer and the Christian life that I can remember reading—in its warmth and pastoral wisdom, in its theological richness, and in its many practical helps and resources. 6 00:00:47,930 --> 00:00:54,625 And on today's episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast, we're talking with the author, Peter Adam, about prayerfulness. 7 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:10,510 Well, hello again. 8 00:01:10,540 --> 00:01:13,810 Welcome to another episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 9 00:01:13,810 --> 00:01:16,360 I'm Tony Payne, and it's great to be with you again. 10 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,145 And today, we're talking to Peter Adam. 11 00:01:19,060 --> 00:01:32,350 Peter's name is one that many of you will know—as a long-time Bible speaker and preacher and author, long-time rector of St Jude's Church in Carlton in Melbourne, and the former Principal of Ridley College in Melbourne. 12 00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:37,775 And among Peter's many gifts is the gift of helping others learn to pray. 13 00:01:37,775 --> 00:01:48,635 He's been running workshops on the nature of prayer at various points for many years, and the fruit of all that thinking is a book called Prayerfulness: Cultivating a Bible-enriched prayer life. 14 00:01:48,665 --> 00:01:56,705 And in today's episode, I wanted to talk to Peter about his book and about the rich challenge and resource that it is for our prayerfulness. 15 00:01:56,705 --> 00:01:58,054 Peter, thanks for joining us today. 16 00:01:58,115 --> 00:01:59,854 That's a great pleasure and a privilege. 17 00:01:59,945 --> 00:02:00,395 Thank you. 18 00:02:00,725 --> 00:02:03,875 Can I kick things off by just asking, what do you mean by prayer? 19 00:02:03,905 --> 00:02:06,095 What is prayer and why is it important? 20 00:02:06,214 --> 00:02:13,265 Well, in the Bible, God speaks to us, and in prayer, we reply and speak to God. 21 00:02:13,924 --> 00:02:17,375 It's part of the communication between God and ourselves. 22 00:02:18,305 --> 00:02:21,225 God is a speaking God and a listening God. 23 00:02:21,814 --> 00:02:26,005 And we are listening people: if we read the Scriptures, we're listening to God. 24 00:02:26,644 --> 00:02:33,080 And we should be speaking people, and the person we should speak to most of all is God. 25 00:02:33,650 --> 00:02:49,850 One of the things I appreciated about the book was the variety and richness, multifaceted nature of that speaking to God that you explore at different points, because our speaking to God, I often think—I think most of us mainly think of intercession, of asking God for things. 26 00:02:50,570 --> 00:02:58,685 But it's really struck me that the way you looked at prayer as a general category word that describes all this speaking to God that we might do, that it's a rich thing. 27 00:02:58,685 --> 00:03:02,795 It's not just asking for things; it's also doing things like lamenting, for example. 28 00:03:03,035 --> 00:03:03,425 Hmm. 29 00:03:03,935 --> 00:03:04,355 Yes. 30 00:03:04,355 --> 00:03:08,225 I mean the word prayer—"to pray"—is actually to, strictly speaking, is "to ask". 31 00:03:09,005 --> 00:03:15,055 But I couldn't think of another word which described the variety of verbal communications we have with God. 32 00:03:15,655 --> 00:03:22,325 And I'm so aware that, in human life, we can restrict ourselves to transactional conversations. 33 00:03:22,325 --> 00:03:30,365 "Would you please do this?" "Would you please do this?" "I've done this for you." And often we can read the Bible in that way: we're looking for things to do. 34 00:03:31,355 --> 00:03:38,555 Whereas the Bible is much bigger than a list of things to do; it's God's self-revelation of himself to us. 35 00:03:39,065 --> 00:03:54,665 And if God in all his glory and majesty and power and grace and kindness and love and constancy reveals himself, then there are bigger questions to ponder than "What can I ask?" And we should respond to who God is. 36 00:03:54,875 --> 00:04:12,725 I often say the life of a married couple, where there are four children and a budgerigar and so on, and a rabbit, can degenerate to task conversations: "You take the rabbit to the vet; I'll take Gerald to ballet and Geraldine to hockey. And then if you put the rubbish 37 00:04:12,725 --> 00:04:23,000 out, I'll do this, and so on." But those transactional conversations—task conversations—are of a very thin means of communication. 38 00:04:23,659 --> 00:04:28,789 And so it is with God: God doesn't just tell us to do things; he reveals who he is. 39 00:04:28,789 --> 00:04:45,965 And if God says, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt," then we should have a bigger response—a broader response—than, "Oh, would you mind converting my friend George?" So the breadth of God's communication and Scripture 40 00:04:45,965 --> 00:04:54,185 should be matched by the breadth of our response to God—our verbal response to God—and then, of course, the lives we lead. 41 00:04:54,604 --> 00:05:10,214 One of the aspects of your book in which that came out strikingly to me as I read it just recently was that as you model different prayers in the book, as you've written quite a few prayers and you give those prayers as example prayers to pray, it really struck me 42 00:05:10,265 --> 00:05:28,930 how not only there was a breadth of kind of talk with God—thanks and praise and self-dedication and self-offering through confession and lament and repentance, as well as asking God, interceding for all manner of things—many of your prayers, how can I put this? 43 00:05:29,169 --> 00:05:32,200 You pray for yourself much more than I pray for myself. 44 00:05:32,229 --> 00:05:33,210 This really struck me— 45 00:05:33,499 --> 00:05:33,590 Right. 46 00:05:34,169 --> 00:05:35,555 —in your prayers for yourself. 47 00:05:35,855 --> 00:05:36,095 Yeah. 48 00:05:36,155 --> 00:05:38,675 It's an emphasis that I found challenging and very helpful. 49 00:05:39,005 --> 00:05:39,215 Yeah. 50 00:05:39,515 --> 00:05:45,155 Many of your prayers go into some depth and length of what you would like God to do in your life— 51 00:05:45,245 --> 00:05:45,575 Yeah. 52 00:05:45,665 --> 00:05:48,185 —and how you are personally responding to God. 53 00:05:48,245 --> 00:05:48,725 Yes. 54 00:05:48,935 --> 00:05:58,565 And it challenged me, Peter, because I think I move very quickly from praying about my life and my sin and my offering to God onto the things that I want to ask him for other people. 55 00:05:58,635 --> 00:05:59,625 Yeah, yeah. 56 00:06:00,055 --> 00:06:12,160 Well, what you have in my prayers for myself is so often when I read the Bible or when I'm preparing a Bible study or a sermon, I'm personally challenged by the Scriptures and I think, "Well, I should 57 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:17,105 pray about that!" So I just add it to my daily prayers, which is why they get longer and longer. 58 00:06:17,255 --> 00:06:17,525 So— 59 00:06:18,485 --> 00:06:18,755 Yes. 60 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:27,005 —They, they, they began as, I think, ten points of things I should pray for—for myself every day, and it's got out of control now. 61 00:06:27,275 --> 00:06:41,485 So, for example, I remember I was actually preaching in Sydney at St Thomas's North Sydney, and the Bible passage was "Set your hope on the grace to be given us when Jesus Christ is revealed." And I thought, "I've never done that. 62 00:06:41,535 --> 00:06:44,880 I've always set my hope firmly on Jesus' death and resurrection. 63 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:54,100 So I better start praying that, and if I'm serious about it, pray it every day." So then I included that in my daily prayers and I'm still praying it. 64 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,680 And I keep on finding more things I need to pray every day. 65 00:06:58,070 --> 00:07:05,360 What you just said touches on another theme that comes out often in the book, which is that prayer is a response to God. 66 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:06,830 God speaks, we listen. 67 00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:06,890 Yeah. 68 00:07:07,310 --> 00:07:09,350 We speak and God loves to listen to us. 69 00:07:09,410 --> 00:07:09,500 Yes. 70 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:15,920 But that our prayers, our speaking to God, is shaped by his revelation of himself—by his word to us. 71 00:07:16,070 --> 00:07:16,940 Yes, that's right. 72 00:07:17,060 --> 00:07:27,980 Can you speak a little bit about how, in your own life, and in how you try to teach people to pray, you've placed the Bible and what God says in the heart of prayer and how it shapes prayer? 73 00:07:28,085 --> 00:07:29,180 Yes, yes. 74 00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:34,490 Calvin comments somewhere that when God speaks to us, he gives us words to pray. 75 00:07:34,940 --> 00:07:41,900 And the best thing to do is pray God's words back to him, because obviously they're important, because they're the words he said to us. 76 00:07:42,349 --> 00:07:50,165 In the same way in which parents teach their children to speak, so God our Heavenly Father teaches us to speak by speaking to us. 77 00:07:50,885 --> 00:08:05,295 And of course, one of the wonderful features of the Bible is that it contains not only God's direct words to us—"Be holy as I am holy"—but it also includes, in God's kindness, God's people's words back to him—as, 78 00:08:05,735 --> 00:08:12,785 for example, in the Psalms and in Paul's prayers and in many other prayers recorded in the Scriptures. 79 00:08:13,475 --> 00:08:25,775 And when you look at a prayer that—the prayer that Jonah prays, for example, and—or the prayer that Nehemiah prays in Nehemiah 1 or Daniel prays in Daniel 9, they're saturated with Scripture. 80 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:40,039 What they're doing is quoting God's words back to him saying, "This is who you are. This is what you promised to do. Please do it." And that seems obvious in a way that God will not only teach us how to live 81 00:08:40,309 --> 00:08:46,699 in the Scriptures, but also how to pray—that is, how to respond to him with our words as well as our lives. 82 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:53,720 You quote from Saint Augustine in the book on this topic: you say, quoting him, "If the Psalm prays, you pray. 83 00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:55,819 If the Psalm laments, you lament. 84 00:08:55,850 --> 00:08:57,620 If the Psalm exalts, you rejoice. 85 00:08:57,949 --> 00:08:59,209 If it hopes, you hope. 86 00:08:59,540 --> 00:09:01,160 If it fears, you fear. 87 00:09:01,595 --> 00:09:14,135 Everything written here is a mirror for us." And one of the many really helpful sections of the book is that section that I was quoted from, in which you take a whole series of the Psalms and excerpts 88 00:09:14,135 --> 00:09:20,555 from the Psalms, and give examples of the Psalms expressing trust, the Psalms expressing rejoicing or— 89 00:09:20,705 --> 00:09:21,095 Yes, that's— 90 00:09:21,095 --> 00:09:26,375 —love and desire of God, or praise and worship of God, and suggest that we can take these words in our own lips— 91 00:09:26,465 --> 00:09:26,795 Yes. 92 00:09:26,885 --> 00:09:27,935 —to enrich our prayers. 93 00:09:28,025 --> 00:09:29,135 Yes, that's right. 94 00:09:29,615 --> 00:09:36,980 And I think one reason to do that is that the more we pray those prayers, the more we know what it feels like to pray them. 95 00:09:37,610 --> 00:09:42,260 We're kind of trained to mouth the words—to feel the words in our mouths. 96 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:44,270 So we do trust God. 97 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:57,290 But I find it so wonderful to say to God, "I trust you." And we do love God; I find it so wonderful to say to God, "I do love you", and the saying of it helps me do it. 98 00:09:58,050 --> 00:10:00,440 Because I guess the overflow of the heart is the mouth. 99 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:01,185 Yes, that's right. 100 00:10:01,190 --> 00:10:03,740 And as we think and speak, so we are. 101 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:04,910 That's right, yes. 102 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,530 And I remember hearing Patricia Weerakoon speak once—a noted sexologist. 103 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:22,575 She said, and I quote, you know, "When you're young, it's easy to love your spouse, because you're both young and beautiful. When you get old, you both look like frogs, it's a bit more difficult." I'm—that was paraphrasing what she said. 104 00:10:23,205 --> 00:10:24,825 I think I've heard her say something similar, yes. 105 00:10:25,305 --> 00:10:30,920 But the more you say, "I love you" and the more you express that love, the more you will love. 106 00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:41,780 I do want to come back to this subject that, really, we've started to touch upon, which is how our language—how our speaking to God—is really the expression of our relationship with God. 107 00:10:42,380 --> 00:10:52,365 But before we move on from the question of how the Bible shapes prayers, for those who haven't yet seen your book—and let me encourage you, if you haven't, dear listener, go and grab a copy of Prayerfulness by Peter Adam. 108 00:10:52,365 --> 00:11:04,275 It's such a helpful resource, both as a challenge and a reshaping of how you might think about prayer and also as just a font of suggestions and possibilities and prayers to use. 109 00:11:04,665 --> 00:11:10,035 And there are little sections in green throughout the book that have prayers or have particular helps for praying. 110 00:11:10,515 --> 00:11:21,960 And I loved your section here where you, based on Luther's approach to using the Bible to pray, you gave a series of suggestions as just how to bounce off each Bible passage you might read in the morning to pray. 111 00:11:22,005 --> 00:11:22,295 Yeah. 112 00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:25,290 What does this passage teach me to do and to pray for? 113 00:11:25,290 --> 00:11:27,390 What does it teach me to be thankful for? 114 00:11:27,930 --> 00:11:29,760 What does it teach me to praise God for? 115 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,010 What sins does it teach me to confess? 116 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:33,960 What does it teach me to lament? 117 00:11:34,290 --> 00:11:36,600 What does it teach me to complain to God about? 118 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,180 What question does it prompt me to ask God? 119 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:43,380 What does it teach me to ask for, and then for whom could I ask it? 120 00:11:44,585 --> 00:11:55,955 And in this way, the Bible and our personal times of prayer, rather than it being two things: I read the Bible, then I pray—it's really one communicative relationship, isn't it? 121 00:11:56,135 --> 00:11:56,435 Yes. 122 00:11:56,435 --> 00:11:57,965 I'm listening to God and responding. 123 00:11:57,965 --> 00:11:58,865 That's exactly right. 124 00:11:58,925 --> 00:12:05,945 We often do our Bible reading and then do our praying, but don't see the connection between the two. 125 00:12:06,665 --> 00:12:11,855 And that means we read the Bible and then pray, with what's on our list. 126 00:12:12,315 --> 00:12:14,689 But the Bible hasn't informed our praying. 127 00:12:14,959 --> 00:12:17,030 God's agenda hasn't informed our praying. 128 00:12:17,959 --> 00:12:20,209 We haven't responded to what God said to us. 129 00:12:20,270 --> 00:12:27,920 And it's so rude in polite conversation if somebody says something to you, not to respond to them. 130 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,840 And I think that basic decency should be part of our Christian life. 131 00:12:33,439 --> 00:12:45,810 So now when I'm preparing sermons, one thing I'm thinking all the way through is "What prayer do I want the congregation to pray at the end of the sermon?" That is, Hebrews is the Bible passage. 132 00:12:46,220 --> 00:12:47,479 God will speak to them. 133 00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:51,349 What should they say in response to the Bible passage? 134 00:12:52,250 --> 00:13:05,689 Whereas often our question with sermons is, "What should people do?", I think the first question is, "What should they say?", because it might be not to do anything, as it were, practical, but to say to God, "Thank you. 135 00:13:06,125 --> 00:13:06,845 Praise you. 136 00:13:07,205 --> 00:13:09,155 I love you." That's enough. 137 00:13:10,205 --> 00:13:20,795 And if we do find we're challenged to do something, then, of course, we'll need to pray that God will help us remember to do it and do it wisely, and do it for his glory. 138 00:13:21,755 --> 00:13:33,545 So action without prayer, I think, is a bit cold, a bit empty, and it doesn't express the depth and breadth of God's self-revelation in the Scriptures. 139 00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:40,910 One of the very powerful themes of the book is that prayer springs from a godward life. 140 00:13:40,970 --> 00:13:48,680 It's not a task we need to tick off in order to be a godly Christian; it's the currency of our relationship with God. 141 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:52,610 It's our faith finding words in speaking to God. 142 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:54,050 And that comes out very strongly. 143 00:13:54,110 --> 00:13:59,480 I even wondered, is that why you'd called the book "Prayerfulness", as opposed to anything else—that it's— 144 00:13:59,480 --> 00:13:59,719 Yeah. 145 00:13:59,810 --> 00:14:05,209 —it's about a life lived in prayer, rather than a certain task you better get on top of. 146 00:14:05,209 --> 00:14:05,630 That's right. 147 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:13,550 It's not a task you have to tick off during your day: "Well, I've prayed now. I'll get on with my day." It's living coram deo—that is, before God. 148 00:14:14,270 --> 00:14:21,350 And one thing I have learned to do in the past four years, I've always prayed at a particular time each day. 149 00:14:22,010 --> 00:14:27,259 But I'm learning to soak my day in prayer by soaking my 150 00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:27,729 day 151 00:14:27,779 --> 00:14:31,209 in the consciousness that I'm not absent from God. 152 00:14:31,819 --> 00:14:33,550 I'm in his presence all the time. 153 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,110 And so I can say, "I'm just about to talk to whoever it is—Alan. 154 00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:43,940 Please prepare his heart and mind for this conversation." And then at the end, say, "Thank you. 155 00:14:44,510 --> 00:14:47,720 And I do pray that what we've talked about will be of help to him. 156 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,050 And now I'm going to work on a talk for next week. 157 00:14:51,710 --> 00:15:08,585 It's quite a difficult passage, so please help me dig into the Scriptures deeply." But also as I'm preparing, I pray for the people at the church I'm going to preach at, and I pray that you'd be preparing the people's hearts and lives for this Bible passage. 158 00:15:09,595 --> 00:15:15,045 So it would be very odd, Tony, if you invited me to come and stay with you—and I'm very happy to accept, by the way—and 159 00:15:17,305 --> 00:15:24,235 I came and made myself at home in your house, watched the telly, had a bath, cooked a meal, so on, and didn't talk to you. 160 00:15:24,835 --> 00:15:27,805 Well, that's what it's like to live in God's world without talking to him. 161 00:15:28,255 --> 00:15:28,885 It's rude. 162 00:15:32,525 --> 00:15:39,275 Well, I suppose that takes us to one of the subjects I did want to raise with you, and that's the subject of why we don't pray. 163 00:15:39,275 --> 00:15:43,175 You do have a chapter on, not prayerfulness, but prayerlessness. 164 00:15:43,235 --> 00:15:43,295 Yeah. 165 00:15:44,075 --> 00:15:51,365 And I imagine it's the flip side of what you've just been saying: it's a lack of awareness of our lives as being lived before God. 166 00:15:51,365 --> 00:15:54,665 But what else would you want to say about the subject of prayerlessness? 167 00:15:54,905 --> 00:16:04,875 And I should say I was particularly encouraged towards the end of your book—whenever you read a book about prayer or prayerfulness, you always end up feeling inadequate, guilty or, in some other respects— 168 00:16:04,875 --> 00:16:05,055 Of course. 169 00:16:05,415 --> 00:16:07,245 —very aware of your failings. 170 00:16:07,425 --> 00:16:13,005 And I was encouraged that you said at some point towards then that you yourself are a reluctant prayer. 171 00:16:13,065 --> 00:16:13,395 Yeah. 172 00:16:13,665 --> 00:16:16,995 Talk to us a little bit about the problem of prayerlessness and why it afflict us. 173 00:16:17,115 --> 00:16:17,625 Yes. 174 00:16:17,775 --> 00:16:25,625 I think probably the biggest reason is that we are naturally deists, rather than theists. 175 00:16:25,685 --> 00:16:38,000 We believe that God created the world and he's given us in the Bible a book of instructions about how to live in the world, how to live as a Christian and how to do ministry, and now it's up to us. 176 00:16:38,690 --> 00:16:45,170 Whereas a theist believes that not only did God create the world, but God is continually active in the world. 177 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:51,375 And in fact, the world only continues because God sustains it in his sovereign providence and power. 178 00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:54,920 And actually, we're being tended by God. 179 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:01,550 Every moment, every breath of air we breathe is a gift of God, and the ability to breathe is a gift of God. 180 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:10,550 Our digestive system only works, because God is helping it to work, as the universe only holds together because it holds together in Christ. 181 00:17:10,550 --> 00:17:24,650 And if our ministry works, it's because God's word is powerful, God's gospel is powerful, and God in his mercy and kindness works in us and through us and by us. 182 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:32,095 As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3, "I planted, Apollos watered, God gave the increase." God is the one who is doing the work. 183 00:17:32,395 --> 00:17:44,405 And I find I have to say to people in ministry all the time, "Actually, the chief minister in your church is Jesus. He's the chief shepherd. You're just a helper." And I know when I'm caring for somebody, I 184 00:17:44,405 --> 00:17:51,635 have to remind myself that God is the chief carer and he's the one who can work independently of me. 185 00:17:51,845 --> 00:17:52,745 Of course he can. 186 00:17:53,345 --> 00:17:55,085 But he can also work through me. 187 00:17:55,745 --> 00:18:09,355 And that awareness of the constant preservation of our world and of our lives, and of Christian ministry, of our growth in Christ and of gospel growth in the world, that's because God is at work. 188 00:18:09,965 --> 00:18:20,855 And that awareness, I think, will help us to pray more naturally, rather than thinking, "Well, God set the whole thing up. He gave us a book of instructions. We just get on with it while he's busy doing something else." 189 00:18:22,295 --> 00:18:26,195 It's easy for us to become functional deists in that sense. 190 00:18:26,195 --> 00:18:26,555 It is. 191 00:18:26,615 --> 00:18:41,200 The world we swim in and live in, and that shapes the way we think—that we are educated in, that we watch on television , or read in books—it's a deist—well, it's not even a deist world; it's an empirical, rationalist kind of world where everything just works on its own— 192 00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:41,530 Yeah. 193 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,060 —And we figure everything out. 194 00:18:43,060 --> 00:18:52,930 The sense of it being a world that's charged with the glory of God and with God's constant presence is an idea that our contemporary world has left behind largely. 195 00:18:52,930 --> 00:18:55,030 And as Christians, I think we're schooled in it. 196 00:18:55,030 --> 00:18:55,720 We are raised in it. 197 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:56,050 Yeah. 198 00:18:56,350 --> 00:18:59,530 And we come to believe in Christ, and so we no longer believe in it. 199 00:18:59,620 --> 00:19:04,500 But I think we default back to that way of living and inhabiting the world very easily. 200 00:19:04,530 --> 00:19:04,890 We do. 201 00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:05,220 I know. 202 00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:06,000 I certainly do. 203 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:06,540 I certainly do. 204 00:19:06,570 --> 00:19:08,790 It's a notable example of our worldliness. 205 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,210 Yes. 206 00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:09,840 Actually. 207 00:19:10,530 --> 00:19:19,020 We are so powerfully shaped by the spirit of our age in this matter, so we know that miracles happen when Jesus rose from the dead. 208 00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:21,420 But now it's up to us. 209 00:19:21,845 --> 00:19:26,070 And that leads either to pride and arrogance, or despair. 210 00:19:26,824 --> 00:19:31,235 Both are a sign of severe imbalance and severe error. 211 00:19:32,030 --> 00:19:40,490 I do want to talk about the value of written prayers and some of the practical and really helpful ideas and suggestions you make about a prayerful life. 212 00:19:40,490 --> 00:19:52,100 But before I get there, one more subject that I found really interesting and challenging in the book, you had a chapter on Satan and the place of opposing Satan in our prayers, which I thought was very powerful. 213 00:19:52,430 --> 00:19:59,135 And again, it's part of the way as moderns, as western people, we don't think about Satan much. 214 00:19:59,945 --> 00:20:04,625 We don't pray against Satan as much as the Bible itself does, and that was a very helpful reminder. 215 00:20:04,625 --> 00:20:07,235 But also you had a fascinating chapter on fasting. 216 00:20:07,685 --> 00:20:14,075 And I began the chapter thinking, "Oh, he's going to say that we don't need to bother fasting." But that's not what you said. 217 00:20:14,075 --> 00:20:16,265 And I have to say by the end of the chapter, I was convinced. 218 00:20:16,775 --> 00:20:18,395 What did you want to say about fasting? 219 00:20:18,395 --> 00:20:25,055 'Cause fasting is not something I would have ever associated with prayer, and yet, as you point out, it's frequently associated with prayer in the Scriptures. 220 00:20:25,055 --> 00:20:25,415 Yes. 221 00:20:25,415 --> 00:20:26,495 It's amazing, isn't it? 222 00:20:26,615 --> 00:20:26,945 Yeah. 223 00:20:27,365 --> 00:20:42,500 I did actually consult Martyn Lloyd-Jones on fasting in his studies in the Sermon on the Mount, and he kept on saying, "Well, fasting's important, but of course, the Roman Catholics get it wrong", and never went on to say why it was important, which I thought was— 224 00:20:43,370 --> 00:20:45,080 —and how we might get it right, for example. 225 00:20:45,315 --> 00:20:46,325 Yes, that's exactly right. 226 00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:46,730 Yeah. 227 00:20:47,389 --> 00:20:51,890 And Christians in the past have been notable fasters, including the Puritans. 228 00:20:52,490 --> 00:20:53,774 They were very keen on fasting. 229 00:20:54,875 --> 00:21:10,115 I think what fasting does is to focus the mind, and as someone—a missionary—kindly explained to me, if you're living in a hand-to-mouth civilisation in which you, you know, gather the beans in the morning and cook them in the afternoon and eat them at 230 00:21:10,115 --> 00:21:16,745 night, fasting actually saves a lot of time preparing food—not that we're worried about that, because it's all preprepared now. 231 00:21:17,614 --> 00:21:23,554 But what it does is focus your attention on what you're doing and it says, "This is serious." 232 00:21:23,675 --> 00:21:28,715 And the amazing thing is that people will fast for their appearance and for their health. 233 00:21:29,375 --> 00:21:31,894 They'll engage in that self-denial cheerfully—well, mildly cheerfully. 234 00:21:34,745 --> 00:21:40,774 But they wouldn't think of fasting in order to bring a matter of great concern to them before God. 235 00:21:41,645 --> 00:21:47,225 And it's just one of the odd blindnesses we Protestants experience when we read the Bible. 236 00:21:47,915 --> 00:21:53,524 And as I frequency say in theology, reaction against error is no way to find the truth. 237 00:21:53,705 --> 00:21:54,395 Quite so. 238 00:21:54,695 --> 00:22:00,665 We don't want to see it as a kind of meritorious way to make our prayers more effective or any of this sort of nonsense. 239 00:22:00,665 --> 00:22:18,000 But that, as you say, can blind us to the value of how fasting can not only direct our mind away from our present appetites and the business of everyday life, but can express our concern and our desperation to come to God in prayer. 240 00:22:18,409 --> 00:22:26,060 And it's fascinating: 1 Corinthians 7 that Paul even writes about sexual abstinence for married couples in order to pray. 241 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,570 So there can be a variety of forms of fasting. 242 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,860 Dear listener, I'll leave that one with you to ponder, and do read Peter's chapter on this. 243 00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:35,900 It highlights a blind spot for us, I suspect. 244 00:23:03,230 --> 00:23:15,530 Every year, the Priscilla & Aquila Centre, a centre of Moore Theological College, holds a conference that focuses on the application end of Complementarianism in order to encourage women in ministry, and in 245 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:21,195 order to think more seriously and creatively about how men and women can work better together in ministry. 246 00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:28,550 In 2026, plenary speaker Simon Flinders will be exploring the concept of the church as the family of God. 247 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:34,340 What can we learn from Jesus' teaching about family, as well as other familial language in the Bible? 248 00:23:34,580 --> 00:23:37,250 And how do we apply this as siblings within God's family? 249 00:23:38,489 --> 00:23:46,169 Find out more at the Priscilla & Aquila Centre Annual Conference on Monday, 2nd February, 2026, held at Moore College. 250 00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:52,900 To view the program and to register, visit the Priscilla & Aquila website: paa.moore.edu.au. 251 00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:53,950 That's paa.moore.edu.au. 252 00:24:00,504 --> 00:24:02,554 And now, let's get back to our program. 253 00:24:02,764 --> 00:24:17,825 Peter, I'd like to go on to talk now about the strong place you give for written prayers—not only writing one's own prayers and thinking about carefully crafting the way we pray, but using the rich prayers that have been written in Christian history by others. 254 00:24:18,395 --> 00:24:22,385 In a nutshell, why do you think written prayers—set prayers—why do you think they're valuable? 255 00:24:22,745 --> 00:24:23,135 Yes. 256 00:24:23,135 --> 00:24:26,585 I think there are a number of reasons: I need to give you a number of nutshells. 257 00:24:26,705 --> 00:24:27,155 Very well. 258 00:24:27,155 --> 00:24:30,035 One is that we easily forget what we should pray. 259 00:24:30,635 --> 00:24:38,735 So you read in 1 Peter 5: "Cast all your cares on him", and you think, "I must remember to do that", but then forget about it, of course, because life is busy. 260 00:24:39,275 --> 00:24:46,084 But if you write down a list of things to pray—"I cast all my cares on you"—well, you'll do it. 261 00:24:46,415 --> 00:24:48,125 That is, you'll pray it every day. 262 00:24:48,514 --> 00:24:52,504 And if you pray it every day, bring it to mind every day, you're more likely to do it. 263 00:24:53,074 --> 00:25:00,675 So it's just—a written prayer can just be a reminder of something that God said to you, which you'll forget if you don't write it down. 264 00:25:01,699 --> 00:25:09,420 Next I think we often pray without thinking of a Bible verse, which might prompt our praying. 265 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:16,800 This is not the same as reading the Bible and then praying; it's the other end of prayer, where we think of something we need to pray for. 266 00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:21,980 Before we start praying, it's good to remember a Bible verse which is appropriate. 267 00:25:22,430 --> 00:25:32,450 So I was leading a prayer session this morning and I remembered Mary's words in the Magnificat about God "bringing down the mighty from their thrones, and raising up the humble and meek". 268 00:25:32,750 --> 00:25:39,889 Well, if you're going to pray for our world, remembering to quotes God's words back to him is a great way to start. 269 00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:54,695 "God, we thank you that you are a God who does bring down the mighty from their thrones, and you do raise up the humble and meek. So please bring down from their positions of power corrupt leaders, selfish leaders, oppressive 270 00:25:54,695 --> 00:26:03,185 leaders, and please care for the people whom they've been messing up, and please deliver them from that oppression." 271 00:26:04,024 --> 00:26:13,774 So what writing it down does is to give you time to think of the Bible verse on which you'll base your prayer—the promise which you'll then claim from God. 272 00:26:14,435 --> 00:26:30,485 The third reason is that people often don't quite know what to pray, and I find I'm, increasingly, if I talk to somebody about a particular issue in their life, which has been paralysing them for years, they don't know how to start praying about it. 273 00:26:31,115 --> 00:26:33,304 So I write a prayer for them to pray. 274 00:26:34,054 --> 00:26:45,185 So what I've done is just cobble together some Bible verses, but they give them God's perspective and the words that God has given us to pray in that particular situation. 275 00:26:45,860 --> 00:26:52,610 I was preaching recently at a church plant in Melbourne, and I knew that half the congregation would be unbelievers. 276 00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:55,250 They've had an extraordinary number of unbelievers coming along. 277 00:26:55,850 --> 00:27:10,040 And so, at the end of the sermon, I prepared a prayer for the Christians to pray, and then I prepared some prayers for the non-Christians to pray, because I love saying to people who aren't Christians, "You can talk to God, even if you don't believe in 278 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:18,440 him, and it's worth the risk." So I wrote some, I think it was like three little prayers for the non-Christians present to pray. 279 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:29,930 And I said, "I'm going to pray three prayers out loud. If you'd like to echo them in your hearts and minds, then please do so." And I was preaching on Jesus, the light of the world. 280 00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:42,860 So there was something like "Jesus, if you are the light of the world, please shine into my heart that I might come to know you." Or another one I think was something like, "God, I don't know if you exist or not. 281 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:52,760 But if you do, please help me to get to know Jesus your Son, who is the light of your world and whom I want to be the light of my life." 282 00:27:53,750 --> 00:28:07,400 And I have myself—I'm talking about writing prayers for others—I found if there's an issue in my life which is really deeply emotional and complicated, it's really helpful to write down a prayer to pray every day. 283 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:16,520 So for years of my Christian life, I thought, "Well, I know that Paul says offer your body as a living sacrifice, but I could never do that. 284 00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:29,129 I'm too unworthy." So eventually I wrote down a prayer: "I offer myself to you as a living sacrifice this day, holy and pleasing to you." And then I felt I could pray it. 285 00:28:29,649 --> 00:28:31,639 So you can grow into a prayer. 286 00:28:32,740 --> 00:28:39,860 And the Collects in the Book of Common Prayer are wonderful examples of "God, you're like this, so please do this." 287 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:40,250 Yes. 288 00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:47,360 They begin with thanksgiving and praise, and then they turn to the request, which is just what Paul says he does. 289 00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:56,389 He says something like, "Every time I pray for you, I thank God for you and pray for you night and day, and in remembering you, I thank God for you." 290 00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:56,899 Yes. 291 00:28:57,110 --> 00:29:06,604 And I think once we thank God for someone, then we're already aware of what God has done in their life already, so then we're prompted to pray bigger prayers. 292 00:29:07,354 --> 00:29:17,205 One of the encouraging and very useful aspects of this book is that you share many of these prayers that you've written with us, as well as some of the great prayers from the Book of Common Prayer as models. 293 00:29:17,415 --> 00:29:27,669 You speak about Thomas Cranmer as a great coach in prayer—not only public prayer, but also personal prayer, and you have a section on taking that into public prayer and preparing to pray publicly. 294 00:29:28,209 --> 00:29:36,725 But the range of different kinds of prayers that you've obviously written over the years for yourself and for others, they serve as a wonderful model in the book, Peter. 295 00:29:36,764 --> 00:29:41,495 Thank you for recording them and giving us the fruit of all that work over so many years. 296 00:29:41,615 --> 00:29:45,784 I might just share one or two of them just so that the listeners can get some sense. 297 00:29:45,814 --> 00:29:48,304 This one struck me: I pray for my grandchildren. 298 00:29:48,665 --> 00:29:52,264 I've been blessed with grandchildren, and this is your prayer for grandchildren: 299 00:29:52,879 --> 00:29:55,010 "Heavenly Father, thank you for our grandchildren. 300 00:29:55,220 --> 00:30:00,949 Please support and encourage their parents to love them, care for them, nurture them, pray for them, protect them. 301 00:30:01,850 --> 00:30:10,370 Help their parents to know you and your love, mercy and grace in the Lord Jesus Christ, and give them the energy and wisdom they need to be good parents. 302 00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,080 "We pray for our grandchildren. 303 00:30:12,490 --> 00:30:14,830 May they grow up knowing and trusting you. 304 00:30:15,310 --> 00:30:20,530 May they learn to turn to you when they are sad, and to thank you for every gift of joy and happiness. 305 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:30,070 May they find their security in your love and faithfulness, learn to love and forgive others, and grow in gospel confidence and in godliness. 306 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:39,440 "Help us to be wise grandparents—not to interfere, but to support our children and our grandchildren for their good and for your glory. In Jesus' name. Amen." 307 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:41,120 It's a lovely prayer. 308 00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:42,200 It is a lovely prayer. 309 00:30:42,290 --> 00:30:45,800 I think somebody else might have written it, but anyway, it is a lovely prayer. 310 00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:52,430 All it needed to include was, "Lord, please help us to open our wallets and close our mouths." 311 00:30:52,430 --> 00:30:52,820 Yeah. 312 00:30:53,780 --> 00:30:54,020 Yes. 313 00:30:54,170 --> 00:30:55,790 Which is the grandparents' advice. 314 00:30:55,790 --> 00:30:56,090 That's 315 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:56,590 right. 316 00:30:56,850 --> 00:30:58,120 No, we're not to speak. 317 00:30:58,190 --> 00:30:58,310 Yes. 318 00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:00,720 Quite so. 319 00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:12,120 Personally speaking, one of the strengths I've found in using other people's written prayers and in writing some prayers of my own is it's a great launching pad for extemporary prayer—for prayer that— 320 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:12,540 Yeah, that's— 321 00:31:12,540 --> 00:31:13,590 —happens in the moment. 322 00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:20,910 It shapes and gives a direction and a kind of—almost like a platform for then branching out and praying for whatever is needed in the moment. 323 00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:22,050 Yes, that's exactly right. 324 00:31:22,470 --> 00:31:24,855 And I think my daily prayers are included in the book. 325 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:35,225 And often halfway through, I just find one prayer and I think, "Wow, I just need to focus on that prayer today." So you don't have to follow every written prayer. 326 00:31:35,285 --> 00:31:37,535 You can use them as a launching pad as well. 327 00:31:38,225 --> 00:31:44,945 I've often had the discussion in theology classes about whether extemporary prayer is more spiritual than written prayer— 328 00:31:45,185 --> 00:31:46,085 Right, yes. 329 00:31:46,090 --> 00:31:54,285 —because there's a feeling we're shaped by the Romantic movement, I think, of the 19th century that extemporary is more spiritual than written. 330 00:31:54,285 --> 00:31:58,425 But I often challenge people to find a Bible verse which teaches that. 331 00:31:59,415 --> 00:31:59,925 Quite so. 332 00:31:59,925 --> 00:32:04,335 And point out that we do sing prepared prayers every time we sing a hymn or a song. 333 00:32:04,335 --> 00:32:04,485 Indeed. 334 00:32:05,145 --> 00:32:08,085 So we're doing it even if we don't quite know we're doing it. 335 00:32:08,495 --> 00:32:18,425 I certainly think the contemporary demand for authenticity above all things, and authenticity lies in spontaneity and what's coming directly out of your heart at that moment. 336 00:32:18,425 --> 00:32:20,415 As you say, it's Romanticism in a new dress. 337 00:32:21,254 --> 00:32:33,425 And I think it can blind us to the value of not only the rich prayers that have been written, not just in the Book of Common Prayer, but more broadly in our Christian past, and the value of thinking and writing out your own prayers. 338 00:32:33,425 --> 00:32:34,445 That's an encouragement. 339 00:32:34,754 --> 00:32:38,555 But I've dabbled in that a few times in my life: I've had periods where I've written my prayers out. 340 00:32:39,115 --> 00:32:42,815 But your book has encouraged me to go back to that practice, among many other encouragements. 341 00:32:42,995 --> 00:32:43,625 So thank you. 342 00:32:44,045 --> 00:32:56,010 Listen, perhaps to finish, Peter, you finished the book by sort of getting practical and talking about planning to pray, and one of the things I loved about the book was that you got to that at the very end, but it seemed to be in the right spot. 343 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:04,650 It seemed like all the really important stuff had already been dealt with, in a sense—that is, why we pray, what prayer is and how prayer stems from our whole relationship with God. 344 00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:13,235 The different kinds of prayers, the value of written prayers, coaching ourselves, and the different forms of prayer, through the Scriptures and through the writings of others. 345 00:33:13,235 --> 00:33:18,725 And then at the right time at the end, there's some thoughts on how to actually organise your life to pray. 346 00:33:19,325 --> 00:33:24,395 How have you personally, just speaking in your own pattern at the moment, how have you personally found planning to pray? 347 00:33:24,665 --> 00:33:27,635 Or what plans for prayer do you currently undertake yourself? 348 00:33:27,665 --> 00:33:28,085 Yes. 349 00:33:28,085 --> 00:33:29,135 If you don't mind me asking that. 350 00:33:29,254 --> 00:33:29,750 No, that's fine. 351 00:33:30,740 --> 00:33:34,640 I think the trouble with reading a book on prayer is that you feel guilty immediately. 352 00:33:34,730 --> 00:33:35,300 Of course! 353 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:43,760 But I'm trying to focus the book just not on one's own personal prayer life, but an equally important question is, "Is your church a praying church?" 354 00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:44,330 Oh, yes. 355 00:33:44,450 --> 00:33:46,250 Do you pray with your friends? 356 00:33:46,594 --> 00:33:51,304 I always ask couples—well, but I often ask them, "Do you pray together? 357 00:33:51,304 --> 00:33:56,614 Do you pray with your children?" So I've got a wider concern than "Do you as an individual pray?" 358 00:33:57,274 --> 00:34:00,274 I can give you my answer, but it doesn't work for everybody. 359 00:34:00,334 --> 00:34:02,104 That is, I'm a list person. 360 00:34:02,284 --> 00:34:05,435 I have not only lists, but lists of lists as well. 361 00:34:06,004 --> 00:34:16,234 So me praying through a prepared prayer and praying for the people I pray for on Monday, and then for the people I pray for on Tuesday, and so, that's just how I function. 362 00:34:16,654 --> 00:34:23,344 Other people don't function that way, so I don't want to say, "This is what I do, and you have to do this, otherwise you're not going in the right direction. 363 00:34:24,179 --> 00:34:28,169 So the thing is to find a way of praying that works for you. 364 00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:33,330 And it may work for a couple of years, and then perhaps you need to change something, and that's okay. 365 00:34:33,929 --> 00:34:38,460 There's not a detailed list of instructions from God about how to do our praying. 366 00:34:39,389 --> 00:34:48,029 And I think the best thing to do is to ask God to make us more prayerful people and then to look at the opportunities he gives us to pray. 367 00:34:48,875 --> 00:34:53,014 And then think, "Well, how can I make the most of this opportunity?" 368 00:34:53,645 --> 00:34:58,475 Some people don't do much time praying—that is, set aside time praying. 369 00:34:58,714 --> 00:35:00,305 They just think of prayers all day. 370 00:35:00,305 --> 00:35:05,795 They pray all day, as things come into their mind or more spiritually, as God directs them. 371 00:35:06,455 --> 00:35:11,705 Other pray-ers are prayer warriors who'll sit down for a 12-hour prayer session very, very happily. 372 00:35:12,365 --> 00:35:14,765 We shouldn't think this is the only way to do it. 373 00:35:15,305 --> 00:35:23,615 We should find a pattern of praying which suits us at this stage in our lives at this time, and help it to work. 374 00:35:23,645 --> 00:35:28,205 I suffered as a 16-year-old convert from reading missionary biographies. 375 00:35:28,865 --> 00:35:30,815 They always three o'clock in the morning and pray. 376 00:35:30,815 --> 00:35:41,515 So I used to set my alarm as a 16-year-old, get out of bed, kneel down, fall asleep immediately, and wake up five hours later with a guilty conscience and a stiff. 377 00:35:42,615 --> 00:35:52,295 I had to learn that those prayer heights weren't quite accessible to me at an early age as a believer and as a teenager who needed lots of sleep. 378 00:35:52,865 --> 00:35:55,115 So I don't want to make people feel guilty. 379 00:35:55,115 --> 00:36:07,715 I love saying, "God loves the way you pray. God loves any prayer that you pray. But also, God loves increasing your prayerfulness, because he loves speaking to you and he loves hearing your words." 380 00:36:08,435 --> 00:36:09,035 Thanks, Peter! 381 00:36:09,065 --> 00:36:18,755 Thanks for taking the enormous amount of time and effort that this book was obviously involved over many years of thinking and praying, and thank you for blessing us with it. 382 00:36:19,625 --> 00:36:33,550 And can I encourage you, dear listener, if you haven't yet gotten hold of Prayerfulness by Peter Adam, it's an important read about a really very vital subject for our whole life and relationship with God, and one that—it's the kind of subject where we really should read 383 00:36:33,550 --> 00:36:40,030 a book on prayer every year or two, I think, and this is a fine volume that's recently come out and can I commend it to you very strongly. 384 00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:55,650 Peter, I wonder perhaps to finish, perhaps we should pray to finish, and I might read your prayer that you pray every day, which I found very encouraging as a prayer, and for us, this day, to pray, and I'll make it plural, since we're all praying together, rather than individual. 385 00:36:56,700 --> 00:37:03,839 You read Hebrews 9:19 and 21-22 about drawing near to God and having full assurance with him, and then you pray, 386 00:37:03,839 --> 00:37:12,590 "Heavenly Father, please make us wise for salvation through faith in Christ, and teach, rebuke, correct and train us in righteousness by your holy Scriptures. 387 00:37:13,310 --> 00:37:20,720 Do whatever it takes to conform me to the image of your Son; for us to die to sin, and for the fruit of the Spirit to flourish in our lives. 388 00:37:21,260 --> 00:37:23,390 Make us the person you want us to be. 389 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,470 Prepare us to do the good works you want us to do and help us to do them. 390 00:37:28,370 --> 00:37:33,740 "Today, Father, we offer our bodies to you as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to you. 391 00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:38,630 Give us contentment and joy in you, in your will, and your ways. 392 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,790 Satisfy us with your steadfast love that we may rejoice in you all our days. 393 00:37:44,450 --> 00:37:45,950 You have blessed and enriched us. 394 00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:49,850 Help us to bless and enrich others freely and generously. 395 00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:56,150 "Today, we will serve you in all that we plan to do, and also in unexpected opportunities. 396 00:37:56,510 --> 00:38:07,460 Please increase our proactive love, our friendliness, encouragement, tolerance and generosity, our gentleness, our sympathy, our patience and forbearance. 397 00:38:08,089 --> 00:38:12,560 Give us wisdom in knowing you, living for you, and serving others. 398 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:26,750 Please increase and multiply the effects of our ministry and prayers as the people that we teach, train, pray for, and encourage, that they may continue to teach, train, and pray for, and encourage others as well. 399 00:38:27,275 --> 00:38:41,975 We trust you, Father, to provide all the gifts, time, energy and health to live for you and do the good works you have prepared for us to do; to place us where you want us to serve you; to use our lives and ministries; and to hear and answer our prayers. 400 00:38:42,575 --> 00:38:51,740 Help us to stand in your grace, live in your love, grow in your wisdom, walk in your ways, serve in your strength. 401 00:38:52,400 --> 00:39:04,339 In the name of the Lord Jesus, and for your glory, please hear all these prayers from the lips of Jesus Christ, your Son, whom you made our high priest, intercessor and mediator. 402 00:39:04,820 --> 00:39:05,930 Come, Lord Jesus! 403 00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:07,730 Amen. 404 00:39:07,735 --> 00:39:07,745 Amen. 405 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,890 Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. 406 00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:33,790 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website: that's ccl.moore.edu.au, 407 00:39:37,235 --> 00:39:48,185 where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre. 408 00:39:48,875 --> 00:39:57,375 And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 409 00:39:58,005 --> 00:40:05,654 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. 410 00:40:06,285 --> 00:40:11,875 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions: please get in touch. 411 00:40:12,175 --> 00:40:13,495 You can email us at 412 00:40:16,245 --> 00:40:17,205 ccl@moore.edu.au. 413 00:40:17,725 --> 00:40:30,985 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. 414 00:40:31,105 --> 00:40:31,855 Thank you for listening. 415 00:40:32,365 --> 00:40:33,205 I'm Tony Payne. 416 00:40:33,595 --> 00:40:34,165 'Bye for now.