1 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,310 " We believe in one God, the Father, the almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen." If, like me, you've been saying those words and the rest of the words of the Nicene Creed for most of your life, you'll have some sense that 2 00:00:32,310 --> 00:00:39,510 this ancient creed is profound and important, and that it summarises something basic and unifying about the Christian faith. 3 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:42,780 But why and how does it do that, exactly? 4 00:00:43,110 --> 00:00:45,720 Why is the Nicene Creed a big deal? 5 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:51,030 Why have Christians been saying these words for 1700 years or thereabouts? 6 00:00:51,570 --> 00:00:54,960 And what difference does it actually make to our Christian lives? 7 00:00:55,650 --> 00:01:00,540 Well, that's our topic on this week's edition of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 8 00:01:15,450 --> 00:01:16,410 Well, hello again, everyone. 9 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:19,560 Welcome to another edition of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 10 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:20,400 I'm Tony Payne. 11 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,530 It's great to be with you here again. 12 00:01:22,530 --> 00:01:28,289 And on today's episode, I've got the boss sitting in the chair opposite me: I've got Mark Thompson, the Principal of Moore College. 13 00:01:28,289 --> 00:01:28,980 Welcome, Mark. 14 00:01:29,010 --> 00:01:29,550 Thank you. 15 00:01:29,730 --> 00:01:30,270 Good to be here. 16 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:33,605 I've already told everybody who you are, but tell us a little bit about what you do here at Moore College. 17 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:42,539 Well, as the Principal, I'm responsible for ensuring that the College actually stays on track and does what it does, and keeps the main game the main game. 18 00:01:42,869 --> 00:01:53,520 So I'm responsible to care for the faculty, to provide leadership to the College and a strategic direction, in partnership with the Governing Board of our College, and also I teach Doctrine. 19 00:01:53,910 --> 00:02:05,845 So one of the great privileges of being a Principal in this place, as opposed to being a Principal in some larger seminaries in other parts of the world, is that I still get to teach, which is great; I don't spend all my time on the road. 20 00:02:05,995 --> 00:02:11,815 And one of the things that you've done—one of the initiatives you've taken, oh, it's going back, probably, to 2015 or 2016— 21 00:02:11,815 --> 00:02:12,894 Yeah, a bit earlier than that, I think. 22 00:02:12,894 --> 00:02:15,855 —was to initiate the Centre for Christian Living. 23 00:02:15,885 --> 00:02:19,704 Why did you launch the Centre for Christian Living and how does it fit into what the College is doing? 24 00:02:19,704 --> 00:02:21,595 Why have you led us to have a Centre for Christian Living? 25 00:02:21,595 --> 00:02:22,285 Let me put it that way. 26 00:02:22,345 --> 00:02:29,255 Well, I probably should make sure that I don't take credit for things that I didn't do, and I didn't set up the Centre for Christian Living; it was already set up. 27 00:02:29,275 --> 00:02:30,115 I inherited it. 28 00:02:30,445 --> 00:02:42,170 It was set up originally so that the ethical teaching in the College, which students found so helpful, might not be confined to the walls of the College, but actually might enrich and help people in churches. 29 00:02:42,530 --> 00:02:53,359 We have several centres, and each of those centres are meant to take the things that we teach here at College and from which our students benefit, and take them to the churches so the churches might benefit more widely. 30 00:02:53,359 --> 00:03:07,820 And so, this particular centre is saying, "How do we help the churches? How do we resource the churches with good theological thinking as they seek to advance the gospel message of Christ, but also live 31 00:03:07,820 --> 00:03:12,869 as Christian disciples in a world like ours, with the unique challenges that our world throws at us?" 32 00:03:13,010 --> 00:03:13,640 Fantastic. 33 00:03:13,790 --> 00:03:17,510 And that's certainly what we've been trying to do at the Centre for Christian Living—well, I've been involved in it a few years ago— 34 00:03:17,510 --> 00:03:17,600 Mm-hmm. 35 00:03:17,839 --> 00:03:30,290 —and then back again this year is to bring the kind of way we teach morality and ethics and think about the Christian life—bring it further afield to the Christians of Sydney and beyond—to model how we do that: how to 36 00:03:30,290 --> 00:03:35,725 think from the Bible—to our lives, and how to think from our lives back to the Bible and inform them that way. 37 00:03:36,325 --> 00:03:41,145 And particularly, how to address some of the thorny things that come up and that baffle us as Christians. 38 00:03:41,695 --> 00:03:55,625 What I want to talk to you about today is sort of starting from the Bible and theology-end towards the Christian life, rather than from some topic or issue in life and back towards how we think about it theologically—and that's to talk to you about the Nicene Creed, of all things. 39 00:03:55,655 --> 00:03:56,015 Mm-hmm. 40 00:03:56,105 --> 00:04:02,765 Because I know that you recently went on a trip to Turkey—to Constantinople, or sorry, Istanbul, it's called these days, isn't it? 41 00:04:02,825 --> 00:04:02,915 Yes. 42 00:04:02,915 --> 00:04:03,365 Yeah, that's right. 43 00:04:03,425 --> 00:04:09,775 To a conference that was celebrating the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicea. 44 00:04:10,090 --> 00:04:24,190 And I thought it would be good to explore this ancient creed—the creed that we say in our churches—we've been saying it in our churches for centuries and centuries—to understand why it might be worth commemorating and important, and why it makes a difference to the Christian life. 45 00:04:24,580 --> 00:04:36,610 Because if part of our mission here is to think, "How does the theology of the Bible actually change the way we live?", here's a big moment in the history of the Christian Church where we grappled with a particular piece of theology, a particular theological issue. 46 00:04:37,180 --> 00:04:37,669 What was it? 47 00:04:38,044 --> 00:04:40,174 And how has it changed the way we live the Christian life? 48 00:04:40,354 --> 00:04:50,885 Well, it's interesting you say that: people who have written about the creed in the 20th century/21st century have talked about it as an irreversible landmark in the history of Christian theology. 49 00:04:51,395 --> 00:04:56,645 Once you've understood what the creed was trying to say—particularly about Jesus—you can't go back. 50 00:04:57,315 --> 00:05:04,935 In fact, if you won't affirm what the creed says at its most controversial point, then you've abandoned the Christian faith. 51 00:05:05,085 --> 00:05:05,500 Oh, that's pretty big. 52 00:05:05,505 --> 00:05:06,255 That's serious. 53 00:05:06,284 --> 00:05:06,945 That's pretty big. 54 00:05:06,945 --> 00:05:07,275 Yes. 55 00:05:07,335 --> 00:05:07,515 Yeah. 56 00:05:07,515 --> 00:05:12,705 So at the heart of the creed is the affirmation that Jesus is as much God as the Father is. 57 00:05:13,155 --> 00:05:17,865 The Son is as much God as the Father is, and incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth. 58 00:05:18,224 --> 00:05:29,030 But to say that the Son is as much God as the Father is, once you've got to that point, if you deny that, and there was one little Greek word that sort of summed that up: "of one being", we translated it as. 59 00:05:29,030 --> 00:05:38,730 But if you deny that, you deny the New Testament witness to Jesus, because that was a way of summing up the New Testament witness: by saying, "He is God. 60 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,080 He's not another God. 61 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:42,170 He's not something like God. 62 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,730 He actually is the one God who exists in three persons." 63 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:55,100 So for the council to have gathered and to have debated this question and come up with this creed, this must have been, obviously, a live issue. 64 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:58,130 Tell us about the issue at the time and why was the council called? 65 00:05:58,130 --> 00:05:58,880 When was it called? 66 00:05:59,060 --> 00:06:12,275 Right, so we're talking the fourth century AD. And in the early fourth century in Egypt, a controversy arose between the local bishop, a man called Alexander of Alexandria—that'll confuse you every time: 67 00:06:12,605 --> 00:06:19,165 Alexander of Alexandria, who is the bishop, and one of his presbyters—one of his elders, a man called Arius. 68 00:06:19,695 --> 00:06:22,715 And Arius was teaching that there is only one God. 69 00:06:22,715 --> 00:06:27,965 He wanted to protect the idea that God is unique and one, and there is no one like God. 70 00:06:29,054 --> 00:06:43,304 And so, he ended up saying that God is one and the Son—when we speak about the Son or the Word, or we'd say the incarnate Son in Jesus Christ, we're talking about one who has the honorific title of "Son". 71 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,210 But he's not as much God as the Father is. 72 00:06:46,210 --> 00:06:49,030 He's a created being—the first of the created beings. 73 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:50,990 And so, he has a particular honour. 74 00:06:51,159 --> 00:07:00,550 It's very much the view that you find among some Jehovah's Witnesses today: he has a great deal of honour, but you can't treat him the same way you treat God. 75 00:07:00,969 --> 00:07:04,840 Would it be fair to say it's, in a sense, almost how Islam also views Jesus? 76 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:05,289 Uh, yes. 77 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:06,679 So someone worthy of great honour. 78 00:07:06,679 --> 00:07:14,785 Someone—one of the greatest, if not the greatest, of the prophets and next to Muhammad and so on, but not God: you don't want to compromise the oneness of God. 79 00:07:14,785 --> 00:07:16,525 And was this Arius's concern as well? 80 00:07:16,525 --> 00:07:17,065 Yeah, that's right. 81 00:07:17,065 --> 00:07:21,525 So, I mean, hardly anybody wakes up in the morning and says, "I want to be a heretic", right? 82 00:07:21,525 --> 00:07:22,525 Nobody does that! 83 00:07:22,825 --> 00:07:27,985 He actually thought he was defending something worth defending—something that was important and something that is important. 84 00:07:27,985 --> 00:07:28,795 There's only one God. 85 00:07:29,224 --> 00:07:35,075 And he didn't want us to start talking in such a way that sounded like we were saying there's more than one God. 86 00:07:35,075 --> 00:07:39,784 There's the Father and the Son, there's another God, and eventually the Spirit is a third god. 87 00:07:39,815 --> 00:07:40,805 He didn't want that. 88 00:07:41,104 --> 00:07:43,924 Just saying, "No, there is only one God. Everything else is created." 89 00:07:44,495 --> 00:07:45,755 And so, the Son is created. 90 00:07:45,755 --> 00:07:47,315 He's the firstborn of all creation. 91 00:07:47,315 --> 00:07:50,284 He had a biblical verse—kept citing the Bible all the time. 92 00:07:50,284 --> 00:07:52,565 You know, he's the firstborn of all creation. 93 00:07:52,895 --> 00:07:54,724 So he's part of the created order. 94 00:07:54,724 --> 00:08:03,135 Firstborn, though, in that particular text means he has the inheritance rights of the entire creation and was a misunderstanding of the verse, I think by Arius. 95 00:08:03,425 --> 00:08:20,455 But he pushed that point hard, and one of the ways in which he could push that point was to say, "Well, the implication of this is that there was a time when the Son was not." He was a prototype advertising consultant, so he could give you the slogan to say—so his little slogan was, "There 96 00:08:20,455 --> 00:08:27,985 was a time when he was not", and it would be sung in pubs and taverns and all sorts of things, and it would be graffitied all over Alexandria. 97 00:08:28,435 --> 00:08:32,155 His opponents would alter the graffiti: they just put the word "never" in. 98 00:08:32,184 --> 00:08:33,470 "There was never a time when he was not." 99 00:08:33,470 --> 00:08:33,830 He was not! 100 00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:36,085 And he—there was a time when he was not. 101 00:08:36,385 --> 00:08:37,585 But why was he saying that? 102 00:08:37,585 --> 00:08:39,805 Because only the Father is eternal. 103 00:08:40,315 --> 00:08:42,704 Only the Father is almighty, he was saying. 104 00:08:43,095 --> 00:08:49,574 The Son is created at a point in time, or he was happy to use the word "begotten" at a point in time. 105 00:08:50,055 --> 00:08:56,564 But that doesn't mean that he is of the same essence as the Father or has the same honour as the Father. 106 00:08:57,225 --> 00:09:11,885 And Bishop Alexander and his deacon Athanasius, who becomes the great champion of that position, saw that this was not only a danger to how you viewed God, but it was a danger to how you lived as a Christian as well. 107 00:09:12,455 --> 00:09:19,535 And so, the 20th-century theologian that I was paraphrasing earlier on said, "This is an irreversible turning point. 108 00:09:20,045 --> 00:09:31,715 Once you've got to the point where you have to say this this way, the way to understand the New Testament is, when it talks about Jesus as God, is saying that as much God as the Father is, and he's the same, in essence, as the Father 109 00:09:31,715 --> 00:09:38,400 is." Once you've said that, if you say no to that, you've walked away from the New Testament's witness to Jesus. 110 00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:40,050 And so, it's that serious. 111 00:09:40,350 --> 00:09:45,800 And so, this controversy is happening in Egypt between Arius and his bishop, and Athanasius, as part of the deal there. 112 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,850 How did we then come to have a council? 113 00:09:48,060 --> 00:09:49,530 And who came to the council? 114 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:49,950 Right. 115 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:57,180 Well, the controversy erupted in Alexandria, and Alexander condemns Arius for saying this. 116 00:09:57,700 --> 00:10:02,435 Arius starts to write to other bishops in other places to plead his case. 117 00:10:02,765 --> 00:10:05,045 And he has a number of bishops who agree with him. 118 00:10:05,405 --> 00:10:10,864 And suddenly, what is a local little dispute starts to have big ramifications. 119 00:10:11,224 --> 00:10:16,035 Now you've got to understand in the fourth century, theology and politics are always interwoven. 120 00:10:16,255 --> 00:10:17,765 You've got to disentangle them somehow. 121 00:10:18,035 --> 00:10:32,569 So at that time, in the fourth century, Constantine—the emperor Constantine—who unites the empire in 313—312/313, around there, he has just united the empire under his rule. 122 00:10:32,810 --> 00:10:44,814 He wants to have a unified empire with no divisions, and this idea of a big theological dispute raging across the eastern portion of his empire is a threat to that 123 00:10:44,814 --> 00:10:45,250 unity. 124 00:10:45,250 --> 00:10:49,165 So he wrote to Arius and Alexander to get 125 00:10:49,165 --> 00:10:50,814 them to try and make up and be friends. 126 00:10:51,205 --> 00:10:52,675 That doesn't go anywhere. 127 00:10:53,005 --> 00:11:05,305 And so, he and his bishop Osius decide, "Let's get all the bishops together", and this has never been done before—trying to get bishops from a whole range of different places together to actually decide on the issue. 128 00:11:05,985 --> 00:11:08,355 So they sent out an invitation to bishops. 129 00:11:08,355 --> 00:11:12,705 Most of them came from the eastern portion of the Empire; only one or two from the West. 130 00:11:13,125 --> 00:11:15,855 And there's uncertainty of how many bishops. 131 00:11:16,125 --> 00:11:18,345 The number 318 kept being used. 132 00:11:18,345 --> 00:11:27,670 But that's a sort of throwaway to an Old Testament picture of—where 318 soldiers that—friends that Abraham took with him to get back Lot. 133 00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:28,719 And was it— 134 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:30,520 And was it actually that number? 135 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:31,660 Was it actually that number? 136 00:11:31,959 --> 00:11:35,439 "Did Constantine actually call the council?" is another debate people had. 137 00:11:35,439 --> 00:11:35,560 Right. 138 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:38,160 Was he the one who called it, or was it Osius who called it? 139 00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:43,689 Because it would be, you know—it was a landmark thing that an emperor would involve himself as much as he did. 140 00:11:44,050 --> 00:11:46,209 Whether he called it or not, he actually went to the council. 141 00:11:46,209 --> 00:11:47,619 He sat in the chair in the middle. 142 00:11:47,890 --> 00:11:51,110 He told them all that they couldn't leave the room until they'd come to a common decision. 143 00:11:51,140 --> 00:11:52,400 Sort this out, right. 144 00:11:52,480 --> 00:12:04,775 There's a wonderful little article written recently by a Cambridge theologian called Mark Smith, in which he points out what was said by Athanasius, who attended the council—he wasn't a bishop, but helped out 145 00:12:04,775 --> 00:12:09,685 his bishop—what he said about how the council progressed, 'cause we don't have any records of the council. 146 00:12:10,255 --> 00:12:14,575 Like other councils, they would create a minutes of their council, and you can still read them. 147 00:12:14,755 --> 00:12:22,885 The only way you know what happened in the council is by reading Athanasius's record, and Athanasius was a victor, so he probably paints himself in a more positive light. 148 00:12:22,885 --> 00:12:23,635 The victors write history. 149 00:12:23,635 --> 00:12:23,815 Yeah. 150 00:12:23,845 --> 00:12:25,055 Yeah, he's writing the history. 151 00:12:25,515 --> 00:12:31,255 But Athanasius's point is that when they first got together, it was all about looking at the New Testament. 152 00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:35,430 It was an exegetical workshop in its first couple of days. 153 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:44,610 But whenever Alexander would put up a text, Arius would understand it in a different way, and they were just banging heads all the time. 154 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:59,310 And so, in the end, they had to think, "What is the way of expressing what the New Testament says that prevents you from distorting it in the way Arius would?" And they came up with the phrase in English "of one being". 155 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:02,120 "He is of one being with the Father". 156 00:13:02,450 --> 00:13:04,310 He's not of a similar being. 157 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:05,960 He's not of a different being. 158 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,580 He's of one being with the Father. 159 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:22,750 And by using that phrase, which is one word in Greek: "homoousios", once you've used that word, and Arius says he could not possibly agree to that word, you realise you've got the word that's summing up the New Testament in a way that can't be bent. 160 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:27,579 And so we have some sense from Athanasius later reflections on what happened. 161 00:13:27,939 --> 00:13:30,760 And we have the actual documents that came out of the council. 162 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:35,620 We have the creed and we have some canons, and other bits and pieces that come out of the council. 163 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:35,709 Yes. 164 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:48,350 Although an interesting historical quirk: the creed that we say in church that we call the "Nicene Creed", although it has this key line in it, and it's sort of based on the Nicene Creed, it might not actually be the one that they came up with at the council. 165 00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:48,740 Is that correct? 166 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:49,160 That's right. 167 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:56,780 So what happened is, is they ended up with a creed and they ended up with this word in it, and everybody signed except two bishops. 168 00:13:57,140 --> 00:14:00,260 And they were quickly deposed and excommunicated and sent away. 169 00:14:00,650 --> 00:14:02,810 So you can imagine, everybody signed it. 170 00:14:02,810 --> 00:14:07,819 The two people who haven't have been excommunicated—not everybody who signed it was really on board. 171 00:14:07,819 --> 00:14:09,079 They just felt they had to sign it. 172 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:09,469 Yes. 173 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:11,510 So it's not going to end the debates. 174 00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:14,479 So the debate rolled on throughout the fourth century. 175 00:14:14,810 --> 00:14:19,010 And at one point, it seemed like Arius and his ideas were going to win. 176 00:14:19,435 --> 00:14:20,785 So that debate rolls on. 177 00:14:20,935 --> 00:14:31,195 By the time you get to the end of the fourth century, it's clear that no, Arius's views are not in line with what the New Testament says, and the creed needs to be reaffirmed. 178 00:14:31,525 --> 00:14:37,265 And at the Council of Constantinople, they reaffirmed the Nicene Creed, but they augment it. 179 00:14:37,285 --> 00:14:38,205 They stretch it. 180 00:14:38,725 --> 00:14:42,205 The original creed is much shorter than the creed that we say in church. 181 00:14:42,655 --> 00:14:48,060 All it says about the Holy Spirit is, "And in the Holy Spirit, we believe one Lord". 182 00:14:48,330 --> 00:14:49,310 "And in the Holy Spirit". 183 00:14:49,310 --> 00:14:50,670 It didn't say anything else about the Spirit! 184 00:14:50,670 --> 00:15:03,390 So when we say, "the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and", all of that's later, and it's added in in Constantinople, and the Son bits added in a bit later than that, in order to say the creed needs to be 185 00:15:03,390 --> 00:15:09,770 a bit fuller on those things to support that central affirmation that Jesus is of the same essence as the Father. 186 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:14,709 So that central affirmation, I'll just read it for those of you just can't quite remember what the Nicene Creed says. 187 00:15:14,709 --> 00:15:16,839 I mean, it's the sort of thing you've said in church heaps of times. 188 00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:18,260 But here it is: it's 189 00:15:18,260 --> 00:15:22,490 "We believe in one God, the Father almighty, the maker of heaven and Earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. 190 00:15:22,910 --> 00:15:38,370 "We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father." 191 00:15:38,370 --> 00:15:40,650 That's that key phrase that you were talking about. 192 00:15:40,950 --> 00:15:49,950 "Through him, all things were made", and then it talks about his work: "for us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven and was incarnate" and so on, "and rose again according to the Scriptures", and so on. 193 00:15:49,950 --> 00:15:53,875 So the story of Jesus' life and his death, his resurrection, his coming judgement. 194 00:15:54,334 --> 00:15:56,975 "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life", that section. 195 00:15:56,975 --> 00:16:03,305 And finally, "we believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church, one baptism, resurrection of the dead, the life of the world to come" and so on. 196 00:16:03,694 --> 00:16:05,955 Yes, but it's much shorter in 325. 197 00:16:06,475 --> 00:16:09,785 So 325 is when the Council of Nicaea affirms the creed. 198 00:16:10,084 --> 00:16:16,724 Much shorter then, and some of the sayings about the Son were sort of repeated a couple of times. 199 00:16:16,724 --> 00:16:18,855 So there was a bit of editorial slimming. 200 00:16:18,855 --> 00:16:19,964 It was sort of your—you would have had a great time. 201 00:16:19,964 --> 00:16:20,354 It's in my line. 202 00:16:20,594 --> 00:16:21,765 It's your line of things here. 203 00:16:21,765 --> 00:16:24,185 You would've had a great time, editing the creed in 381. 204 00:16:24,204 --> 00:16:27,074 Tell you what, I would have edited the Athanasian Creed, which comes later on. 205 00:16:27,074 --> 00:16:27,165 Oh yeah. 206 00:16:27,165 --> 00:16:28,905 I think I would've had a good job editing that one. 207 00:16:28,905 --> 00:16:29,625 That's right, yes! 208 00:16:29,625 --> 00:16:30,525 That goes on forever. 209 00:16:30,615 --> 00:16:31,395 It does indeed. 210 00:16:31,395 --> 00:16:32,655 It's why we don't say it as often. 211 00:16:33,105 --> 00:16:50,410 So 381 modifies the creed to tighten some of the statements in the section on Jesus, to add material on the Holy Spirit and the church, and that's what, if you were technically going to speak about it; let's see if I can say it properly: the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. 212 00:16:51,490 --> 00:16:53,260 But that's such a mouthful, nobody ever says it. 213 00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:53,979 We just say the Nicene Creed. 214 00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:55,349 We just say the Nicene Creed. 215 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,550 Because it builds upon and affirms Nicaea. 216 00:16:57,710 --> 00:16:58,430 Yeah, that's right. 217 00:16:58,430 --> 00:17:08,180 And it's the very thing that Nicaea was most concerned about—that we're identifying the Son as of the same substance as the Father—have not been different. 218 00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:13,110 There's not a slither of difference in the godness of the Father and the godness of the Son. 219 00:17:13,655 --> 00:17:17,925 That's there in 381, just as much as it was in 325. 220 00:17:18,275 --> 00:17:22,474 And is that why it has this phrase, eternally begotten of the Father? 221 00:17:22,504 --> 00:17:22,835 Yes. 222 00:17:22,835 --> 00:17:33,725 And it emphasises that: "the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made". 223 00:17:34,055 --> 00:17:37,745 What's it driving at there and emphasising—this begotten idea rather than made? 224 00:17:37,955 --> 00:17:42,420 So "begotten, not made" says that he's not part of the creation, in that sense. 225 00:17:42,420 --> 00:17:44,340 So the Son is not part of the creation. 226 00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:48,690 Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnate Son, is part of the creation. 227 00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:49,980 He's got a human nature. 228 00:17:50,430 --> 00:17:54,480 But the Son himself is not part of the creation. 229 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:55,980 He's begotten, not made. 230 00:17:55,980 --> 00:18:01,500 His sonship with the Father is different from our sonship with the Father. 231 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:03,900 So we are sons of the Father by adoption. 232 00:18:04,995 --> 00:18:07,125 He is a Son of the Father by nature. 233 00:18:07,665 --> 00:18:09,885 And so, the begotten language becomes very important. 234 00:18:09,885 --> 00:18:18,195 It's biblical language to start with, but it's saying a father begets a son who shares his nature, shares his DNA. 235 00:18:18,195 --> 00:18:19,785 We would talk about those sorts of things. 236 00:18:20,115 --> 00:18:28,895 And it's that sort of close natural relationship they're talking between the Father and the Son—although not material in the way we talk about human life. 237 00:18:29,225 --> 00:18:34,774 Still, that relationship is not one of—the Father doesn't create the Son by his will. 238 00:18:35,165 --> 00:18:37,175 Or he creates everything else by his will. 239 00:18:37,175 --> 00:18:39,064 God chooses to create a world. 240 00:18:39,425 --> 00:18:42,064 He chooses to populate it in this way. 241 00:18:42,064 --> 00:18:44,135 It all is a result of God's will. 242 00:18:44,495 --> 00:18:46,985 The Son is not a product of the Father's will. 243 00:18:47,710 --> 00:18:49,780 The Son is a product of the Father's nature. 244 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:52,390 He is of the same being as the Father. 245 00:18:52,420 --> 00:18:53,770 That was critically important. 246 00:18:54,490 --> 00:19:03,040 But it becomes even more important, because if he is just part of the creation, then he needs to be saved like the rest of the creation. 247 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,420 He can't be the saviour. 248 00:19:05,344 --> 00:19:14,615 So the implication of the Nicene Creed is more than just about talking fancy words about who Jesus is; it's actually talking about is he able to be our saviour? 249 00:19:15,185 --> 00:19:27,495 Because if he is not, if he is part of the creation, then the creation itself bears all these marks of the Fall, and he would need to be saved, just like you and I need to be saved. 250 00:19:27,855 --> 00:19:36,135 So what Athanasius and others in the early fourth century recognised was that who Jesus is impacts what Jesus did. 251 00:19:36,765 --> 00:19:41,535 And so, if we are going to benefit from the work of Jesus, he has to be not just one of us. 252 00:19:41,805 --> 00:19:43,125 He has to be one of us. 253 00:19:43,215 --> 00:19:45,015 But he has to be not just one of us. 254 00:19:45,225 --> 00:19:50,055 And that's why you need the creed saying he is every bit as much God as the Father is. 255 00:19:50,415 --> 00:19:51,465 Only God can save. 256 00:19:51,810 --> 00:19:56,239 Only God can save, and he can only save us as, quote, "both God and man". 257 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:56,629 Yes. 258 00:19:56,659 --> 00:19:58,669 He can only stand in for us as man. 259 00:19:58,969 --> 00:20:05,090 He can only present a sacrifice of sufficient value if—if I can put it that way, a sacrifice of infinite value. 260 00:20:05,449 --> 00:20:09,530 If he's God—if God puts forward God to die in our place. 261 00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:09,979 Yeah. 262 00:20:09,979 --> 00:20:13,429 So a later Bishop Anselm once said, we are the sinners. 263 00:20:14,015 --> 00:20:16,254 We are the ones who deserve to bear the judgement. 264 00:20:16,565 --> 00:20:17,855 But we can't save ourselves. 265 00:20:18,185 --> 00:20:20,705 We actually can't pay the price for our sins. 266 00:20:21,185 --> 00:20:24,275 The only person who can pay the price for our sins is God himself. 267 00:20:24,875 --> 00:20:25,835 So how do you solve that? 268 00:20:25,865 --> 00:20:27,305 We are the ones who should be paying. 269 00:20:27,785 --> 00:20:29,165 God is the only one who can. 270 00:20:29,855 --> 00:20:35,495 The only way you solve that is by God becoming man—the incarnation of the Son, Jesus of Nazareth. 271 00:20:35,765 --> 00:20:37,685 Both truly God, God from God. 272 00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:37,720 Yeah. 273 00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:41,080 And truly incarnate of the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary. 274 00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:54,610 And in the century after Constantinople, between 381, which is when the Council of Constantinople reaffirmed the Nicene Creed, and the middle of the next century, the great debate was how do you talk about both those things? 275 00:20:55,090 --> 00:21:02,260 The debate up to 381 is how do you talk about Jesus' relation to the Father—the Son's relation to the Father? 276 00:21:02,770 --> 00:21:09,475 The debate after that is, as much as anything else, a debate on how do you relate Jesus to humanity? 277 00:21:09,745 --> 00:21:11,995 How can he be both God and a man? 278 00:21:12,385 --> 00:21:15,035 And you end up with the Chalcedonian Definition in 451. 279 00:21:15,595 --> 00:21:20,785 But in the fourth century, which we're talking about, the issue was, is he God like the Father is? 280 00:21:21,355 --> 00:21:22,565 Can he be worshipped? 281 00:21:22,585 --> 00:21:23,200 That's another thing. 282 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,845 'Cause if you're worshipping a creature rather than the creator— 283 00:21:26,875 --> 00:21:27,505 That's idolatry. 284 00:21:27,505 --> 00:21:28,375 That's idolatry. 285 00:21:28,415 --> 00:21:29,915 So you don't want to get into that problem. 286 00:21:30,155 --> 00:21:31,325 So is he God? 287 00:21:31,745 --> 00:21:32,625 Can he be worshipped? 288 00:21:32,645 --> 00:21:33,155 Yes. 289 00:21:33,605 --> 00:21:34,355 Is he God? 290 00:21:34,355 --> 00:21:35,165 Can he save us? 291 00:21:35,345 --> 00:21:35,705 Yes. 292 00:21:36,274 --> 00:21:38,385 And if he was a creature, he shouldn't be worshipped. 293 00:21:38,405 --> 00:21:40,235 And if he was a creature, he couldn't save us. 294 00:21:40,355 --> 00:21:41,375 So this is a big deal. 295 00:21:41,524 --> 00:21:42,635 That's why it's such a big deal. 296 00:22:09,754 --> 00:22:11,135 The Christian life is a journey. 297 00:22:11,615 --> 00:22:18,545 The closer we walk with God, the more we surrender our plans for his—to see the world come to know and love his Son Jesus. 298 00:22:19,325 --> 00:22:21,155 Where does your life fit into God's plan? 299 00:22:21,635 --> 00:22:23,195 Where is the right place to serve? 300 00:22:23,645 --> 00:22:27,004 How can you be equipped to reap the harvest God has prepared for you? 301 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,030 God finds us in so many different places. 302 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,170 He leads us from school to work—from being served to opportunities for service. 303 00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:39,600 For almost 160 years, he has led committed Christians to Moore Theological College. 304 00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:53,850 Moore College offers a chance to be shaped and transformed by the gospel of the Lord Jesus; to join a community committed to growing more like Christ; to deeply engage with God's word in its original languages; to become effective pastors and proclaimers of his 305 00:22:53,850 --> 00:23:00,640 good news; to prepare for global mission humble men and women together doing whatever it takes to bring the gospel to the nations. 306 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,649 The Christian life is a journey, and Moore College can be part of that. 307 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:15,750 Whether it's the Preliminary Theological Certificate, a one-year Advanced Diploma, a three-year Bachelor of Theology, or a four-year Masters, Moore College can help you reach the field God is preparing for you. 308 00:23:16,410 --> 00:23:18,909 Find out more on our website: moore.edu.au. 309 00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:25,160 That's moore.edu.au. 310 00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:27,629 And now let's get back to our program. 311 00:23:28,094 --> 00:23:38,235 One of the things about 325 and the Nicene Creed, none of the 318 or however many bishops were there thought they were producing a piece of liturgy—Christian liturgy. 312 00:23:39,044 --> 00:23:43,264 They never thought that this was something that people were going to be reciting in churches the way that we do. 313 00:23:43,264 --> 00:23:44,185 For the next 1700 years. 314 00:23:44,294 --> 00:23:46,125 For the next 1700 years, indeed! 315 00:23:46,514 --> 00:23:46,814 No. 316 00:23:46,935 --> 00:23:54,435 And they didn't think they were producing a framework for which you might understand Scripture, which some people today suggest. 317 00:23:54,435 --> 00:24:01,270 Here's a hermeneutical guide for understanding Scripture, providing the boundaries of our authorised interpretation. 318 00:24:01,570 --> 00:24:03,820 They weren't thinking in those sort of categories at all. 319 00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:11,429 I don't even think they thought they were summarising the faith, because if they were summarising the faith, there were some massive holes in their summary. 320 00:24:11,429 --> 00:24:14,229 Like it says, nothing about justification. 321 00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:16,070 It says nothing about Scripture. 322 00:24:16,235 --> 00:24:20,854 It says, as I said, very little about the Holy Spirit: "and in the Holy Spirit". 323 00:24:21,245 --> 00:24:22,865 So they weren't trying to produce a summary. 324 00:24:22,865 --> 00:24:24,004 What were they producing? 325 00:24:24,604 --> 00:24:32,195 In the first instance, they were producing a technical test of bishops and their orthodoxy. 326 00:24:32,575 --> 00:24:38,550 If you wanted to know whether this bishop actually did believe the New Testament faith and he affirmed the Nicene Creed. 327 00:24:38,909 --> 00:24:40,740 That's the original purpose. 328 00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:57,075 But as well as that, I think the reason why it's useful for us today to keep saying the creed is that it was a confession of not everything that could be said about the Christian faith, but the most important things—the heart of the Christian faith: the godness of God, and 329 00:24:57,075 --> 00:25:05,295 the godness of the Son, and the godness of the Spirit; that we have one God who not only creates us, but saves us and sanctifies us. 330 00:25:05,415 --> 00:25:06,495 All of that is important. 331 00:25:06,495 --> 00:25:17,399 And when we say the creed today, we confess with them and with their successors over 1700 years the core of the faith without thinking we've said everything. 332 00:25:17,399 --> 00:25:19,830 I still want to talk about justification by faith alone. 333 00:25:20,639 --> 00:25:22,350 And the Nicene Creed says nothing about that. 334 00:25:22,649 --> 00:25:23,129 It doesn't. 335 00:25:23,129 --> 00:25:24,149 It doesn't mention the word. 336 00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:25,230 Does it mention the word "faith"? 337 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:25,889 I don't think so. 338 00:25:26,730 --> 00:25:27,780 Except "I believe". 339 00:25:28,290 --> 00:25:28,770 "I believe". 340 00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:29,310 "I believe". 341 00:25:29,310 --> 00:25:29,790 "We believe". 342 00:25:29,790 --> 00:25:30,389 "We believe". 343 00:25:30,419 --> 00:25:30,840 Yes. 344 00:25:30,929 --> 00:25:31,950 It's a confession of faith. 345 00:25:32,429 --> 00:25:33,300 That's important, isn't it? 346 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:38,285 Because I was going to ask you should we keep remembering and saying this creed, and why? 347 00:25:38,495 --> 00:25:51,155 And I think you've started to answer that, because yes, in the sense that it's a way of confessing our ongoing faith in this great line of succession—in this great orthodox creed—that we believe this about who Jesus is and about the 348 00:25:51,155 --> 00:25:57,485 core of Christian belief and the nature of the Son, because it's so important to stand and confess those things. 349 00:25:58,325 --> 00:26:06,120 But are you suggesting that when we stand and confess those things, and it's great that we do so, it's not as if we're confessing a complete summary of the whole faith. 350 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:06,400 No. 351 00:26:06,419 --> 00:26:09,929 Or that everything that is important is being summarised in these few words. 352 00:26:10,169 --> 00:26:10,770 No, that's right. 353 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:11,280 That's true. 354 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,710 It's not saying everything that could be said about the faith. 355 00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:20,429 It's not even a full-orbed summary in the sense that still being a summary document covers all the basics. 356 00:26:20,429 --> 00:26:21,780 It doesn't cover all the basics. 357 00:26:22,199 --> 00:26:36,595 But it actually goes to the very heart of the dispute in the fourth century, which remains so critically important for us: unless Jesus is Lord—unless he is God—and we can confess him as the Son of the Father, we're not confessing the New Testament faith. 358 00:26:36,835 --> 00:26:38,034 And I think that's an important thing. 359 00:26:38,034 --> 00:26:45,175 When I went to Turkey, the subtitle of the paper that I gave was something like, "Let's celebrate the Nicene Creed, but not too much". 360 00:26:47,245 --> 00:26:52,645 And the reason for saying "not too much" is to say the creed doesn't exist alongside the Scriptures. 361 00:26:52,795 --> 00:26:53,185 Yes. 362 00:26:53,245 --> 00:26:55,315 It exists under the authority of the Scriptures. 363 00:26:55,315 --> 00:26:56,935 It's a way of expressing the truth of the Scriptures. 364 00:26:56,935 --> 00:26:57,475 Yeah, that's right. 365 00:26:57,475 --> 00:27:03,565 So I believe that Jesus is as much God as the Father is, because that's what the testimony of Scripture is. 366 00:27:03,985 --> 00:27:07,855 And the creed summarises that in a nice, succinct way for us. 367 00:27:07,885 --> 00:27:12,445 And so, us actually saying that says now I stand where the Bible stands on who Jesus is. 368 00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:19,700 So the Nicene Creed is a great, helpful, wonderful confession that we can share with 1700 years of Christians. 369 00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:22,940 But it's not inspired in the same way that the Scriptures are. 370 00:27:23,150 --> 00:27:24,560 Well, that's important to say, isn't it? 371 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:31,790 Because sometimes, I've certainly heard the argument that, oh, look, let's not divide and have arguments about things that aren't in the creeds. 372 00:27:31,790 --> 00:27:32,960 Let's just say the creed. 373 00:27:33,050 --> 00:27:36,740 If we all believe the creeds together, surely that's orthodox Christianity. 374 00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:41,030 And anything that's not in the creeds is kind of, you know, we can agree to disagree. 375 00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:51,820 But that's kind of almost placing the creed on the level of Scripture and saying it's such a complete and orthodox summary of all that is necessary to believe that if there's anything that's outside of here, we just 376 00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:56,020 must agree to disagree, because there's a bunch of things that are outside there, as you, as you mentioned. 377 00:27:56,590 --> 00:27:56,649 Hmm. 378 00:27:56,649 --> 00:27:57,340 I think that's right. 379 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:05,475 And similarly with the idea that this is a hermeneutical grid or boundary that helps you to properly interpret the Scriptures. 380 00:28:05,775 --> 00:28:15,675 When you talk like that, the risk is that you're put in a creed alongside the Bible as well—as authoritative as the framework is as authoritative as the content within the framework. 381 00:28:15,795 --> 00:28:15,975 Yes. 382 00:28:16,095 --> 00:28:17,065 There's all that danger. 383 00:28:17,085 --> 00:28:19,935 So much better to say this is a confession of the faith. 384 00:28:20,670 --> 00:28:22,800 It's a confession of the New Testament faith. 385 00:28:23,010 --> 00:28:27,930 It's not everything that the New Testament says, but the heart of it about who God is: Father, Son and Spirit. 386 00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:34,020 And we can joyfully confess that, along with 1700 years of Christian brothers and sisters. 387 00:28:34,140 --> 00:28:36,480 And it's important today for a couple of reasons, isn't it? 388 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,740 And that's where I want to move to. 389 00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:54,635 It's important because, although there are not many people in our contemporary society who would know what an Arian is or what who Arius was, there are many people, as I think back over my Christian life, both broadly within the Christian kind of Christendom and certainly outside it, who are 390 00:28:54,635 --> 00:29:12,139 very happy to give Jesus a lot of honour—to say that he was the greatest of men, that he was worthy of listening to and following his teaching—but who stopped short of being able to affirm that he is God in the flesh, that he is true God from true God, that he was of one being with the Father. 391 00:29:12,139 --> 00:29:22,490 And I'm thinking not only of the whole s swath of liberal Christians with liberal Christianity, which is reluctant to affirm that, but also just your average Aussie who kind of often thinks quite positively 392 00:29:22,490 --> 00:29:27,605 of Jesus, but hasn't thought through the implications of what it means to say that he is or isn't God. 393 00:29:27,755 --> 00:29:27,995 Yeah. 394 00:29:28,025 --> 00:29:28,985 He's a good bloke. 395 00:29:29,015 --> 00:29:29,405 Yeah. 396 00:29:29,465 --> 00:29:32,825 You can learn lots by looking at his example and listening to his teaching. 397 00:29:32,825 --> 00:29:36,545 But the core of the New Testament faith is that he saves us. 398 00:29:36,635 --> 00:29:38,255 He's our Lord who saves us. 399 00:29:38,495 --> 00:29:47,870 And he can only do that because he's God, 'cause none of us can actually extract ourselves from our own involvement in sin in order to save ourselves or anyone else. 400 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:49,639 That can only be done by God. 401 00:29:49,850 --> 00:30:00,530 And so, for us as believers who stand and affirm this summary of the core teaching about Jesus, what difference does this belief make to our ongoing Christian lives? 402 00:30:00,530 --> 00:30:04,760 We're the Centre for Christian Living; what difference do you think this makes to the way we live our Christian lives? 403 00:30:04,790 --> 00:30:08,419 Well, it actually keeps your focus clearly on Jesus. 404 00:30:08,419 --> 00:30:23,125 The fact that the biggest portion of this creed is on the person of Jesus and his work, and so to turn Christian life into a system of living—even an ethical or moral system of living— 405 00:30:23,185 --> 00:30:23,514 Yes. 406 00:30:23,604 --> 00:30:30,115 —Rather than relation to this unique person, would be a distortion of the Christian life. 407 00:30:30,445 --> 00:30:33,804 So a Christian life is focused on Jesus: who he is and what he did. 408 00:30:34,044 --> 00:30:36,294 And this creed keeps reminding you of that. 409 00:30:36,735 --> 00:30:48,825 So when we go to church and we recite the creed, if we recite the creed, no matter what else is being said—sermon might be on something else entire—you're reminded that the heart of the Christian faith is the person of Jesus and what he did. 410 00:30:49,065 --> 00:30:51,525 So it's really significant in that way, I think. 411 00:30:52,095 --> 00:30:58,665 But it also says to us that it is not a matter of us following just Jesus' example. 412 00:30:59,775 --> 00:31:05,745 One of the things that Arius was quite happy to say was that Jesus is the example for us to follow. 413 00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:11,520 And just as we can freely follow him, we can be saved, right? 414 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,030 So an exemplarist view of salvation. 415 00:31:15,090 --> 00:31:16,680 Of who Jesus is and of what he came to do. 416 00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:17,550 Yeah, that's right. 417 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:24,180 But what the creed reminds you is he's not just an example to follow, 'cause you can't be God in the way that he is God. 418 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,940 But he's unique and he is the one who comes down in order to save us. 419 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,210 For us, then, and for our salvation, he was born from heaven. 420 00:31:34,510 --> 00:31:41,830 This is a big debate, actually, in the world of Christian ethics and understanding morality, not just at the popular level, but also at the more academic and theoretical level. 421 00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:45,070 What is the place of example and imitation? 422 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:55,395 Is it possible to become more godly—to put on more virtue by looking at a virtuous person and seeking to repeat and do what they do—to follow their example? 423 00:31:55,395 --> 00:31:56,385 Is that possible? 424 00:31:56,895 --> 00:32:11,669 And the two sides of that debate really revolve around the fact that if you don't affirm that, at one level, for us, that kind of accumulation of virtue is impossible, apart from Jesus and that the Christian faith is not just a matter of trying 425 00:32:11,669 --> 00:32:28,560 to become like someone you admire, but is in fact a work of God from God, not only saving you, cleansing you, justifying you, but making you a new person, regenerating your whole self, your whole heart and mind and soul, giving you a new spirit and 426 00:32:28,620 --> 00:32:36,880 a new relationship with God in Jesus—that this is the whole basis upon which some form of imitation and growth can happen. 427 00:32:36,910 --> 00:32:38,250 But apart from that, it can't. 428 00:32:38,250 --> 00:32:49,830 And in fact, apart from that, you get locked in a kind of self-perpetuating, self-achievement, self-focused kind of program of trying to become a better person, which, on its own, fails. 429 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Yes, particularly if you think that that program of self-improvement is going to somehow save you. 430 00:32:56,495 --> 00:33:10,625 So as a response to a salvation that is won completely by God—that Christianity is a rescue mission at its very heart—as a response to that, seeking to follow the example of Jesus' teaching and life. 431 00:33:10,985 --> 00:33:12,695 That's a good and positive thing, isn't it? 432 00:33:12,875 --> 00:33:15,125 Well, we're supposed to keep all his commandments until he comes again. 433 00:33:15,125 --> 00:33:15,635 Yeah. 434 00:33:15,875 --> 00:33:20,105 So you want to say, "Yes, that's good. Imitation's good. Paul says, 'Imitate me as I imitate Christ.'" 435 00:33:20,285 --> 00:33:20,525 Exactly. 436 00:33:20,525 --> 00:33:22,235 Imitation and example are good things. 437 00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:25,760 But they're in a different category altogether than salvation. 438 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,110 Salvation is not about what you do, but about what he did, at its core. 439 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:39,560 And that flows over into our imitation in that even in the life we live in response to his salvation, it's him at work in us by his Spirit. 440 00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:39,830 Yeah. 441 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,390 Forming us to be like himself. 442 00:33:41,390 --> 00:33:43,590 And so, at every point, it's his work. 443 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:59,760 Even at those points when we're working hard to imitate Christ and to put on a virtuous life and a virtuous way of living, even at that point, his godness and the unity of his godness and his humanity is what draws us into becoming more like Jesus. 444 00:33:59,790 --> 00:34:01,439 Even in that, it's the work of God in us. 445 00:34:01,620 --> 00:34:02,429 Yes, indeed. 446 00:34:02,459 --> 00:34:09,899 And also, you can see why Constantinople was right to expand the article on the Holy Spirit, who we just— 447 00:34:09,899 --> 00:34:10,645 The Lord, the giver of life. 448 00:34:10,930 --> 00:34:11,560 Yes. 449 00:34:11,770 --> 00:34:14,020 So he's the one who enables us to respond. 450 00:34:14,620 --> 00:34:16,960 Mark, thanks so much for coming and opening this up to us. 451 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:30,200 And I hope, dear listener, you can see that these ancient words, which many of you'll know so well from having said them every week, or said them regularly in your churches, that they've almost just become part of you—that these ancient words are so important because of what they summarise. 452 00:34:30,490 --> 00:34:43,640 And perhaps those of you who are listening who aren't so familiar with this creed, who perhaps don't say the creeds in your church so much, go and dig out the Nicene Creed and meditate on it in your Quiet Times, and pray over it, and say it in your churches, because it summarises 453 00:34:43,660 --> 00:34:50,800 something about the nature of who Jesus is and how Jesus is himself God and of one being with the Father, which is the very centre of our faith. 454 00:34:51,070 --> 00:35:00,575 And I would encourage you to ask yourself, "Where do I find this in the Bible? Where does it tell me that he is the Son of the Father?" And you'll find plenty of evidence. 455 00:35:01,085 --> 00:35:01,835 Thanks so much, Mark. 456 00:35:01,835 --> 00:35:04,565 And thanks for being with us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living. 457 00:35:04,835 --> 00:35:05,255 Thank you! 458 00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:25,295 Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. 459 00:35:25,775 --> 00:35:30,155 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website. 460 00:35:30,155 --> 00:35:45,505 That's ccl.moore.edu.au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the way back to 2017, videos from our live events, and articles that we've published through the Centre. 461 00:35:46,205 --> 00:35:54,755 And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 462 00:35:55,355 --> 00:36:03,035 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. 463 00:36:03,665 --> 00:36:08,195 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 464 00:36:08,195 --> 00:36:09,245 Please get in touch. 465 00:36:09,545 --> 00:36:15,035 You can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au. 466 00:36:15,095 --> 00:36:28,359 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. 467 00:36:28,419 --> 00:36:29,230 Thank you for listening. 468 00:36:29,710 --> 00:36:30,580 I'm Tony Payne. 469 00:36:30,970 --> 00:36:31,450 'Bye for now.