1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,480 I guess you could say that Christians have always been very pro-family. 2 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:17,730 In fact, historically and in some parts of the world, Christianity and traditional family values are seen, really, as much the same thing—which 3 00:00:18,830 --> 00:00:29,525 makes the actual content of the Gospels and what Jesus says about family very surprising—in fact, very shocking is probably a better word. 4 00:00:30,395 --> 00:00:37,565 It's not as if Jesus is against marriage and family, but his teaching about how to relate to our families brings a radical 5 00:00:37,565 --> 00:00:44,915 challenge to our total and unquestioned devotion to our families and to putting our families first, above all else. 6 00:00:45,575 --> 00:00:53,985 This radical new perspective on family life that Jesus brings—that's our topic on this week's episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 7 00:01:09,350 --> 00:01:10,070 Well, hello again. 8 00:01:10,070 --> 00:01:12,950 Welcome to another edition of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 9 00:01:12,950 --> 00:01:18,020 I'm Tony Payne, broadcasting—well, podcasting, I suppose I should say, here from Moore College as always. 10 00:01:18,340 --> 00:01:23,620 And joining me today on this episode of our podcast is Simon Flinders. 11 00:01:24,070 --> 00:01:25,750 Simon, great to have you with us. 12 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:27,220 Tell us a little bit about who you are. 13 00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:28,240 Thanks, Tony. 14 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,340 Good to be with you and your listeners. 15 00:01:30,610 --> 00:01:31,780 I'm married to Tamara. 16 00:01:31,810 --> 00:01:36,160 We have three daughters: Gemma, Lily and Charlotte. 17 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,030 We live in Chatswood on Sydney's leafy North Shore, where we go to church. 18 00:01:40,060 --> 00:01:45,100 And I have been an Anglican minister in the Diocese of Sydney for 25 years now. 19 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:49,825 But in the last few years, I've begun working for the Archbishop of Sydney as his Chief of Staff. 20 00:01:50,615 --> 00:01:53,104 Right, so you help to run the show, so to speak. 21 00:01:53,104 --> 00:01:53,705 Something like that. 22 00:01:53,705 --> 00:01:54,125 Something like that. 23 00:01:54,125 --> 00:01:56,104 Help to make sure he runs the show as well as possible. 24 00:01:56,375 --> 00:01:56,675 Yeah. 25 00:01:56,735 --> 00:01:57,395 Excellent. 26 00:01:57,904 --> 00:02:01,965 And we're particularly speaking with you today—as interesting as that might be to dig into the Archbishop's 27 00:02:01,984 --> 00:02:07,085 schedule and find out all the inside secrets, what we really want to speak about is the talks that you 28 00:02:07,085 --> 00:02:12,329 are due to give next February—February 2nd is the Priscilla & Aquila Conference here at Moore College. 29 00:02:12,780 --> 00:02:12,870 Mm-hmm. 30 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:19,320 You're the keynote speaker this year, and your theme—your title—struck me as a really interesting one, and thought it 31 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:25,350 would make a great conversation about the nature of family and kinship and household, and how we live as Christians in 32 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:32,820 our families and what all that means—‘cause the title of your talk is "Radical kinship: Men and women in God's family". 33 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,330 And perhaps we could start by just "radical kinship". 34 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:36,720 What's that? 35 00:02:36,750 --> 00:02:37,650 What do you mean kinship? 36 00:02:37,915 --> 00:02:38,185 Hmm. 37 00:02:38,515 --> 00:02:39,205 Yeah, thanks, Tony. 38 00:02:39,205 --> 00:02:42,475 Really looking forward to the conference next year. 39 00:02:42,475 --> 00:02:45,655 And I look forward to people's interaction with these ideas. 40 00:02:46,845 --> 00:02:54,775 P&A is a conference for thinking about Complementarianism in lots of ways, and what I want to do in this conference is take a step back, in 41 00:02:54,775 --> 00:03:03,950 some ways, to thinking about the relationships of men and women in Christian communities, in our churches, in the most sort of basic sense. 42 00:03:03,950 --> 00:03:06,980 What does it mean for us to be brothers and sisters? 43 00:03:07,010 --> 00:03:14,120 And how does the Bible arrive at that kind of language for talking about the relationships between Christian people? 44 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:22,579 So "kinship": I guess we're using in the sense of who we belong to—you know, I guess as a surrogate for the word "family". 45 00:03:23,090 --> 00:03:23,120 Mm. 46 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,740 Although noticing, I suppose, that "family" is not a word the Bible itself uses very much. 47 00:03:27,740 --> 00:03:31,640 So we're thinking about who we belong to in our families. 48 00:03:31,670 --> 00:03:32,660 Who we're related to. 49 00:03:32,660 --> 00:03:37,700 We're related to, but not just kind of, I guess, in the way we normally think about that. 50 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,650 I guess the word "family" in our cultural context is understood in a particular way. 51 00:03:43,195 --> 00:03:47,515 Whereas, I guess a word like "kinship" can invite us out of thinking in that category 52 00:03:47,515 --> 00:03:52,075 and thinking about who we belong to in Christ and not just who we belong to by blood. 53 00:03:52,495 --> 00:03:53,035 Sure. 54 00:03:53,425 --> 00:03:57,145 But there's this other word, "radical", in the title of your talks that you're going to be giving. 55 00:03:57,565 --> 00:03:58,525 In what sense "radical"? 56 00:03:58,525 --> 00:04:02,125 How does the gospel call us to a kind of radical kinship? 57 00:04:02,155 --> 00:04:02,275 Mm. 58 00:04:02,275 --> 00:04:03,175 What are you getting at there? 59 00:04:03,954 --> 00:04:04,015 Yeah. 60 00:04:04,015 --> 00:04:14,174 I think the word "radical" strikes me as a great word for thinking about the kinds of things Jesus does and says in relation to family. 61 00:04:14,234 --> 00:04:14,625 Right. 62 00:04:15,225 --> 00:04:25,235 And I think it's radical—Jesus' kind of teaching about family, his own interactions with his human family and others, I think, poses a very radical 63 00:04:25,235 --> 00:04:33,844 challenge to the way that our culture, and even our Christian culture, often thinks about who we belong to and what that means for our lives. 64 00:04:33,905 --> 00:04:40,685 So as I think about the things Jesus teaches us about and the way they rub up against the things we believe and accept in our 65 00:04:41,164 --> 00:04:46,690 current cultural moment in our country, at least, it's hard for me to think of a topic on which he's more radical, actually. 66 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:53,479 What sort of ideas—when you say that the way we tend to think about family now, you've got something in mind there. 67 00:04:53,630 --> 00:04:55,880 What do you mean "how we tend to think about family now"? 68 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,830 Before we think about how Jesus really challenges it in some surprising and shocking ways. 69 00:05:01,070 --> 00:05:01,280 Hmm. 70 00:05:01,340 --> 00:05:03,950 What is our cultural value with respect to family, do you think? 71 00:05:04,159 --> 00:05:10,299 Yes, I definitely think helpful to describe it as a cultural value, because I don't think this is true across all cultures. 72 00:05:10,299 --> 00:05:14,650 I think the way different cultures think about family are actually very different. 73 00:05:14,770 --> 00:05:21,070 So I guess I'm going to answer your question by thinking about the culture of the country and the city that I live 74 00:05:21,070 --> 00:05:30,909 in, where it seems to me that people have a very transcendent kind of loyalty to their nuclear family in particular. 75 00:05:31,539 --> 00:05:38,490 That loyalty often looks like really investing in each other's happiness and wellbeing. 76 00:05:39,330 --> 00:05:44,700 It seems to me that in our culture, we tend to sort of think about our priorities in 77 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:49,290 a way that elevates family usually to the top of the tree, or somewhere very near it. 78 00:05:49,860 --> 00:05:51,210 Mm. If you haven't got family, what have you got? 79 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:52,560 It's all about the family. 80 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:52,680 Mm. 81 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,420 We hear that expression a lot. 82 00:05:54,870 --> 00:06:02,495 And we see it also just in people's behaviour, just how much they do invest in their families, and the degree to which my investment in 83 00:06:02,495 --> 00:06:11,125 my children and them having absolutely every opportunity, and devoting enormous time and resources to our children expresses that as well— 84 00:06:11,305 --> 00:06:11,695 Yes 85 00:06:11,755 --> 00:06:15,115 —almost in a totalising sense—almost, like you say, a transcendent sense. 86 00:06:15,355 --> 00:06:16,735 This is the meaning of my life. 87 00:06:16,735 --> 00:06:18,534 My family is the meaning of my life. 88 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:19,230 Yes. 89 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:25,230 Even the way we tend to think about the meaning of our life after death in our culture, I think, has 90 00:06:25,230 --> 00:06:30,060 this sense in which I'm leaving a legacy for my children, or those who come after me and my family. 91 00:06:30,060 --> 00:06:38,040 Even in the way we think about what our life was about, when we get to the end, I think we tend to think about family as the highest priority. 92 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:45,515 Now, this is interesting, because we would normally say that Christians—Christians have a reputation for being pro-family—for being 93 00:06:45,515 --> 00:06:51,515 family people, for being very big on the family and standing up for family values and all these kind of family-oriented things. 94 00:06:52,085 --> 00:06:56,585 And you'd say that's certainly true in the Bible—that we'd say the Bible's very pro-family, right? 95 00:06:56,645 --> 00:06:56,885 Mm-hmm. 96 00:06:57,065 --> 00:06:58,055 You're not saying it's not. 97 00:06:58,775 --> 00:07:01,995 No, I'm saying that the Bible is definitely pro-family. 98 00:07:02,015 --> 00:07:06,245 It's pro-marriage, it's pro-godly parenting. 99 00:07:06,845 --> 00:07:14,450 It's pro- the care of parents and grandparents as well, I think, which is something maybe some other cultures do better than we do. 100 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:14,810 Yeah. 101 00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:18,409 So the Bible is definitely pro-family, in that sense. 102 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:25,070 And I think even in the teaching of Jesus, we hear echoes of those really positive affirmations of 103 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:30,020 the importance of those relationships—the importance of God's word for shaping those relationships. 104 00:07:30,020 --> 00:07:30,800 So absolutely. 105 00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:36,380 But I think Jesus says some other things about family as well, which are much more uncomfortable 106 00:07:36,380 --> 00:07:40,609 for us, and that will be kind of some of what I want to dig into in the talks of the people. 107 00:07:40,609 --> 00:07:41,270 Give us a sample. 108 00:07:41,270 --> 00:07:43,760 What sort of uncomfortable things did Jesus say? 109 00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:49,669 I guess I'd want to start by saying there are some uncomfortable things Jesus does in relation to his own family. 110 00:07:50,060 --> 00:07:55,430 So one of the things that I think is fascinating in the Gospels is just reflecting on Jesus' relationship with 111 00:07:55,430 --> 00:08:02,030 his own siblings and his own parents—especially his mother, which we get a bit of an insight into in the Gospels. 112 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:07,510 The way he speaks about them and to them, I think, can be quite confronting for us. 113 00:08:07,510 --> 00:08:13,120 You know, there's famously that moment where people tell Jesus that his mother and siblings have come 114 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,260 to find him and they're concerned for him, and they want to see him and make sure he is all right. 115 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:24,700 And Jesus responds by kind of raising questions about "Who are my brothers and sisters?" And says things like, "Well, those who are in 116 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:31,630 my family are those who listen to and accept the word of God." So there are these kind of moments where Jesus' own interaction with his 117 00:08:31,630 --> 00:08:39,200 family seems unconventional or a little bit troubling to us—like he's treating his family in ways that we wouldn't want to treat ours. 118 00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:42,230 So there's what Jesus does, I guess, in the first place. 119 00:08:42,230 --> 00:08:49,340 But lots of things Jesus says about families as well, that are, I think, quite stimulating and provoking. 120 00:08:49,430 --> 00:08:56,210 He talks about the way that loyalty to his kingdom will produce divisions in families. 121 00:08:56,570 --> 00:09:01,560 He suggests that accepting and recognising his lordship in your life is going 122 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:06,060 to have implications for the priority that you give to your human family. 123 00:09:06,630 --> 00:09:14,910 He even suggests, I think, that families can be an impediment to following after Christ or entering his kingdom. 124 00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:19,175 So these sorts of things that Jesus says, I think, are arresting in our cultural moment. 125 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:20,489 Very much. 126 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:27,900 I was giving a talk to a dads and daughters, or dads and Father's Day kind of thing, and I decided I'd just raise that passage 127 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:34,800 in Luke's Gospel where Jesus talks about hating your mother, father—hating your family, if you're going to be my disciple. 128 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,510 Let's go to the most extreme one. 129 00:09:36,569 --> 00:09:36,719 Yeah. 130 00:09:36,869 --> 00:09:40,709 And it provoked a really interesting conversation in the room, because it is uncomfortable. 131 00:09:40,709 --> 00:09:41,400 It is shocking. 132 00:09:41,675 --> 00:09:42,245 What does it mean? 133 00:09:42,245 --> 00:09:42,995 I love my kids. 134 00:09:42,995 --> 00:09:44,135 What do you mean, "hate my kids"? 135 00:09:44,285 --> 00:09:44,525 Yeah. 136 00:09:44,584 --> 00:09:45,755 What on earth could that mean? 137 00:09:46,025 --> 00:09:46,444 Yes. 138 00:09:46,505 --> 00:09:54,405 He does say some very shocking things about the possibility that by entering his kingdom, there is a different family—a 139 00:09:54,425 --> 00:10:01,970 different father, perhaps, that we now have that relativises our transcendent loyalty to this family or something like that. 140 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,490 Yes, I think "relativises" is a really good word, Tony. 141 00:10:04,490 --> 00:10:12,319 It's not that he so diminishes our family affections or responsibilities as to become meaningless in the kingdom. 142 00:10:12,890 --> 00:10:14,530 But they're certainly relativised, aren't they? 143 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:17,510 They're relativised chiefly by Jesus' own lordship. 144 00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:25,515 I think what's going on as you read the Gospels is that Jesus is calling people to a loyalty to him that will transcend all other loyalties. 145 00:10:26,175 --> 00:10:29,625 And part of what we learn in the Gospels, and which, of course, the writers of the New Testament 146 00:10:29,625 --> 00:10:35,745 flesh out, is that following Jesus as Lord means embracing Jesus' own Father as our father. 147 00:10:35,745 --> 00:10:40,905 And so, that's right: we're introduced into a new family that has a claim on our 148 00:10:41,145 --> 00:10:46,515 lives that transcends the claim that the families we were born into have in Christ. 149 00:10:47,235 --> 00:10:52,570 I wonder if that's also connected with the fact that in the Bible—and I've written about this in the past and 150 00:10:52,570 --> 00:10:58,790 gone on about this in the past—that in the Bible, the father has a place in defining the identity of the family— 151 00:10:58,819 --> 00:10:59,060 Mm-hmm. 152 00:10:59,270 --> 00:11:02,300 —In a way that is less the case for us in our culture. 153 00:11:02,449 --> 00:11:02,600 Mm-hmm. 154 00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:05,480 It was a more patrilineal kind of culture. 155 00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:10,730 In the Old Testament, if you wanted to say, "This was my family", you would say, "This is my father's house." 156 00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:10,819 Mm. 157 00:11:10,979 --> 00:11:14,780 "I'm going back to my father's house", is the way you would say, "I'm going back to my family." 158 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:15,050 Mm. 159 00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:20,285 And so, whose father you were, in a sense, kind of defined the relationships. 160 00:11:20,285 --> 00:11:20,855 That's— 161 00:11:20,855 --> 00:11:21,005 Yes 162 00:11:21,064 --> 00:11:27,545 —the people you hung with and related to both immediately—your immediate blood relations—but also more extended. 163 00:11:27,964 --> 00:11:35,015 And that house, the father's house, became a broader thing that included other people who were drawn into the orbit of 164 00:11:35,015 --> 00:11:40,055 that household: servants and slaves and foreigners, and all sorts of people who would be welcome into this house and 165 00:11:40,055 --> 00:11:48,280 be part of this house that owed its generation—came from and belonged to, in some way, identified with this father. 166 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:49,000 Yes. 167 00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:54,340 And so, it's striking, then, when Jesus is in the temple as a 12-year-old and his parents go off 168 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,870 without even—that whole incident unfolds where they're indignant and "What are you doing" and "Why? 169 00:11:58,900 --> 00:11:59,710 Where were you?" 170 00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:00,010 Hmm. 171 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:01,215 "I was in my Father's house." 172 00:12:01,755 --> 00:12:02,175 Yes. 173 00:12:02,295 --> 00:12:07,275 "Where did you expect me to be?" And right from the—that early stage in the Gospel, a sense that Jesus has two fathers. 174 00:12:07,815 --> 00:12:10,845 Or an earthly father, but his heavenly Father is his father. 175 00:12:11,175 --> 00:12:11,565 Yes. 176 00:12:11,565 --> 00:12:12,465 And where else would he be? 177 00:12:12,555 --> 00:12:12,975 Yeah. 178 00:12:12,975 --> 00:12:19,355 And that's why I think trying to use a word like "kinship" for these talks is important, because what you've just described is a 179 00:12:19,355 --> 00:12:25,415 picture of thinking about "family" life, if we wanted to use that word, that's very different to the way we think about family life. 180 00:12:25,415 --> 00:12:28,985 You've talked about those who are drawn into the orbit, as it were. 181 00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:33,395 And the New Testament’s picture of a household is like what you described. 182 00:12:33,785 --> 00:12:38,675 And I think the New Testament picture of church is very much like that as well. 183 00:12:38,825 --> 00:12:42,785 We will come to that, because you're right: when we think of church as family, we often 184 00:12:42,785 --> 00:12:46,685 import some of our ideas, and maybe church as household is a better way to think about it. 185 00:12:46,685 --> 00:12:47,555 Well, we'll come back to that. 186 00:12:47,555 --> 00:12:51,995 I just want to dig into what this might mean—what Jesus kind of semi shocking kind of— 187 00:12:52,055 --> 00:12:52,325 Mm-hmm. 188 00:12:52,445 --> 00:12:58,745 I mean, for example, "Look, I can't come with you. I need to go and bury my father." Like, is there a greater 189 00:12:58,745 --> 00:13:05,660 obligation you can imagine in our family now or in the ancient world—to go and honour and bury your own father? 190 00:13:05,660 --> 00:13:08,780 And he says, "No, forget about that. Let the dead bury their dead. You come and follow me." 191 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:09,050 Yeah. 192 00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:12,230 There's a shocking degree of that kind of challenge. 193 00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:12,650 Hmm. 194 00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:17,090 Well, how do you think this challenges our own attitudes, our own contemporary attitudes, to family? 195 00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:18,860 Before we get onto talking about church. 196 00:13:19,130 --> 00:13:20,120 How does that challenge us? 197 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:26,960 And so, I certainly tend to think of the supreme loyalty being owed to my kids and my wife and my family, and there's a sort of a primacy there. 198 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:27,170 Mm. 199 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,590 And yet this, the word we used: "relativised", It does change it. 200 00:13:31,609 --> 00:13:32,689 Yeah, absolutely. 201 00:13:33,229 --> 00:13:42,229 I guess that passage you just referred to in Luke 9, where Jesus talks about letting the dead bury their own dead is—"shocking" is a good word. 202 00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:49,670 Jesus is saying some things about what it means to follow him, which has a huge implication for the kinds of 203 00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:56,074 priority we would give to things that we would normally consider to be basic kind of family responsibilities. 204 00:13:56,645 --> 00:14:02,225 That will play out, I guess, in what our love for our family members looks like. 205 00:14:02,255 --> 00:14:09,035 One of the things I'll probably share in my talks is that I was preaching on Matthew 10 at the time, my first daughter was born. 206 00:14:09,574 --> 00:14:10,235 And— 207 00:14:10,324 --> 00:14:12,155 We share an eldest daughter named Gemma. 208 00:14:12,185 --> 00:14:12,755 Yeah, we do! 209 00:14:12,935 --> 00:14:13,355 That's right. 210 00:14:13,355 --> 00:14:13,505 Yeah. 211 00:14:13,505 --> 00:14:15,005 So this is when my Gemma was born. 212 00:14:15,005 --> 00:14:15,680 When was your Gemma born? 213 00:14:16,195 --> 00:14:18,535 Uh, she was born in 2005. 214 00:14:18,695 --> 00:14:18,865 Oh, right. 215 00:14:18,985 --> 00:14:20,555 So she's a little younger than your Gemma. 216 00:14:20,575 --> 00:14:22,495 Yeah, my Gemma was born in—well, I won't say. 217 00:14:22,495 --> 00:14:23,525 A little earlier than that. 218 00:14:23,755 --> 00:14:24,235 Fair enough. 219 00:14:24,715 --> 00:14:26,255 Protecting the non-present. 220 00:14:26,275 --> 00:14:26,725 Exactly. 221 00:14:26,725 --> 00:14:26,995 Yeah. 222 00:14:27,565 --> 00:14:33,835 And very struck by the sorts of things Jesus was saying in the Gospels—in Matthew 10 in particular at that time. 223 00:14:34,735 --> 00:14:45,205 And it really struck me at that moment in my life that when my heart was filled with this new surge of love and affection for a child that I was 224 00:14:45,205 --> 00:14:54,680 meeting for the first time in the world, that what Jesus called me to was certainly to love her, but never to love her more than I loved him. 225 00:14:55,490 --> 00:15:02,329 And that thought landed on me in that moment in my life in a very profound way, and I've thought and prayed about that a lot since, I guess. 226 00:15:02,329 --> 00:15:07,939 What does it look like for me to love my daughters generously as a father? 227 00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:15,740 But what does it also mean for me to love them in a way that makes it clear to them that they don't come first to me—that I love the Lord Jesus, and 228 00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:24,064 I love my Father in heaven in a way that outstrips my love for them, because, actually, to love them well in the Kingdom of Christ is to teach them 229 00:15:24,064 --> 00:15:34,355 that—is to show them that Christ deserves a higher loyalty than our own families, and that God is a Father greater than any father I could ever be. 230 00:15:34,355 --> 00:15:42,840 So I've wanted my daughters to learn that, and I've tried to reflect on what it looks like to love them in that relativised way you're talking about. 231 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:46,740 It's almost like it reorders and kind of reconfigures our love. 232 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:46,890 Mm. 233 00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:54,660 And gives in light of the greatest love, which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, 'cause he's the greatest good. 234 00:15:54,660 --> 00:15:55,890 He's my greatest good. 235 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:56,970 He's my end. 236 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:58,440 His glory. 237 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:02,940 And presence with him and life with him is the purpose and end of my life. 238 00:16:02,945 --> 00:16:03,035 Mm-hmm. 239 00:16:03,210 --> 00:16:05,730 And it's the purpose and end of my daughter's life. 240 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:05,970 Yeah. 241 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,110 In God's kindness. 242 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:14,099 And so, that greatest of all goods that draws our love and shapes every other love has 243 00:16:14,099 --> 00:16:17,250 to shape our love for our daughters and our wives and our children and for everybody. 244 00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:17,310 Yeah. 245 00:16:17,310 --> 00:16:22,650 It's a reordering of what we think we are loving this person towards. 246 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:23,040 Yeah. 247 00:16:23,099 --> 00:16:30,870 Are we just loving them towards their own flourishing and happiness and wellbeing considered independently, which is just a definition of sin? 248 00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:31,109 Mm. 249 00:16:31,109 --> 00:16:33,209 That's just me loving myself, wanting the best for me. 250 00:16:33,589 --> 00:16:36,680 This wonderful new life is kind of part of me and mine. 251 00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:37,069 Mm-hmm. 252 00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:44,180 And is it going to just be an expression of an inward-looking, promoting our own flourishing and wellbeing and health and success at all costs? 253 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:50,480 Or is it that my good and her good, and everything I want for her and for me, first of all, 254 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,190 lies in loving God and who he is, and through and from that loving everything else in his world— 255 00:16:55,250 --> 00:16:55,460 Hmm 256 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:56,360 —appropriately? 257 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:56,990 That's right. 258 00:16:56,990 --> 00:17:01,430 And even, I think, in our marriages, that's a significant shift in thinking, isn't it? 259 00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:06,710 That the Scriptures urge us to make—I think you see the seeds of that right back in Genesis 2: that the man 260 00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:13,145 and the woman are not just made for each other, but for the service of God's purposes in the world together. 261 00:17:13,685 --> 00:17:13,925 Mm. 262 00:17:14,015 --> 00:17:18,035 A point that, I guess, Christopher Ash so helpfully reminded us of in his writings on marriage, 263 00:17:18,035 --> 00:17:21,875 and that it's so important to Christian thinking about marriage, even from the outset. 264 00:17:22,505 --> 00:17:30,695 God's creatures were made to love and serve him, and the human relationships that we enter into, as precious and as important as they are, 265 00:17:31,235 --> 00:17:39,565 find their proper context and their proper object in that higher loyalty—that submission to our creator, our following of our Lord Jesus. 266 00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:39,865 Mm-hmm. 267 00:17:39,865 --> 00:17:41,095 The love of God our Father. 268 00:17:41,335 --> 00:17:48,655 At church on Sunday, we were reading Revelation 2, where Jesus writes to the church in Ephesus and calls them back to their first love. 269 00:17:48,985 --> 00:17:49,075 Mm-hmm. 270 00:17:49,075 --> 00:17:51,025 And I think that's what we're talking about, Tony. 271 00:17:51,025 --> 00:17:58,045 We're talking about the first love that the Lord Jesus calls his people into, which is love for God and love for him. 272 00:17:58,465 --> 00:18:00,925 And that ought to shape how we love everyone else. 273 00:18:00,925 --> 00:18:01,045 Mm-hmm. 274 00:18:01,045 --> 00:18:03,865 Or it cascades down and orders all our loves, doesn't it? 275 00:18:03,865 --> 00:18:04,015 Mm-hmm. 276 00:18:04,395 --> 00:18:10,465 And in his normal, shocking, parabolic kind of way, Jesus keeps bringing this home all the time. 277 00:18:10,465 --> 00:18:10,555 Mm-hmm. 278 00:18:11,035 --> 00:18:15,715 And how our tendency to turn inwards, our tendency to turn in on ourselves and 279 00:18:15,715 --> 00:18:20,190 ignore God, can lead to a corrupt love, not just of ourselves, but of our families. 280 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:20,400 Mm-hmm. 281 00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:25,550 In the kind of way we started talking about them, when we opened our conversation, to make the family so 282 00:18:25,550 --> 00:18:30,960 that they're the transcendent kind of good, the ultimate good that we live for, is a perversion, in a way. 283 00:18:31,230 --> 00:18:33,450 I remember Philip Jensen once preaching a series. 284 00:18:33,450 --> 00:18:37,470 I can't remember anything in the series except the title, the memorable title. 285 00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:39,900 The title was "The Family and Other False Gods". 286 00:18:39,985 --> 00:18:40,065 Hmm. 287 00:18:40,955 --> 00:18:41,675 And it can be that. 288 00:18:41,695 --> 00:18:42,505 Yes, absolutely. 289 00:18:42,505 --> 00:18:46,525 And there's a—I mean, again, I think it's not like Jesus has completely innovated here. 290 00:18:46,525 --> 00:18:50,845 I think the roots of these principles are in the Old Testament Scripture as well. 291 00:18:50,845 --> 00:18:55,735 I think it's Deuteronomy 13—correct me if I've got that wrong, but—where the Old Testament law 292 00:18:55,735 --> 00:19:02,175 encouraged Old Testament Israelites to stone their family members if they led them into idolatry, right? 293 00:19:02,175 --> 00:19:08,865 So absolutely what you're saying is true: even from the Old Testament law, anything including our families 294 00:19:08,865 --> 00:19:15,074 that lead us away from the worship of the one true God is to be shunned and rejected in the most severe way. 295 00:19:15,165 --> 00:19:20,274 And in the positive sense, the family life is to be built around talking about the worship 296 00:19:20,274 --> 00:19:24,354 of the one Lord, in Deuteronomy 6, with all our heart and soul and mind and strength. 297 00:19:24,354 --> 00:19:26,004 That one Lord; the Lord is one. 298 00:19:26,514 --> 00:19:29,875 And you talk about this with your children: you talk about with them on the way, and you 299 00:19:29,875 --> 00:19:32,725 talk about it with them on your going out and you're coming in and all this kind of stuff. 300 00:19:32,725 --> 00:19:34,435 It's to be at the centre of family life. 301 00:19:34,495 --> 00:19:34,794 Yeah. 302 00:19:34,854 --> 00:19:36,925 And it shapes your ambitions for your families. 303 00:19:37,104 --> 00:19:42,205 Not only do I want to love my daughters and my wife in a way that reflects my 304 00:19:42,205 --> 00:19:48,895 higher love for Christ, but I want them to love Christ more than they love me. 305 00:19:49,135 --> 00:19:54,955 And so, that's shaped my prayers for my daughters as well as I think about that, you know, I want them to love me, but what I 306 00:19:54,955 --> 00:20:00,775 want for them more than anything else is that they will grow up knowing and loving God their Father and Christ, their Lord and 307 00:20:03,755 --> 00:20:06,065 Saviour. 308 00:20:29,315 --> 00:20:35,455 Every year, the Priscilla & Aquila Centre, a Centre of Moore Theological College, holds a conference 309 00:20:35,455 --> 00:20:41,595 that focuses on the application end of Complementarianism in order to encourage women in ministry, and in 310 00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:47,505 order to think more seriously and creatively about how men and women can work better together in ministry. 311 00:20:48,375 --> 00:20:54,615 In 2026, plenary speaker Simon Flinders will be exploring the concept of the church as the family of God. 312 00:20:55,155 --> 00:21:00,405 What can we learn from Jesus' teaching about family, as well as other familial language in the Bible? 313 00:21:00,645 --> 00:21:03,645 And how do we apply this as siblings within God's family? 314 00:21:04,534 --> 00:21:12,215 Find out more at the Priscilla & Aquila Centre Annual Conference on Monday, 2nd of February, 2026, held at Moore College. 315 00:21:12,665 --> 00:21:18,975 To view the program and to register, visit the Priscilla & Aquila website: paa.moore.edu.au. 316 00:21:18,995 --> 00:21:22,215 That's m-o-o-r-e.edu.au. 317 00:21:22,534 --> 00:21:26,134 That's paa.moore.edu.au. 318 00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:28,610 And now, let's get back to our program. 319 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,780 Now, God being our Father; us being coheirs with Christ. 320 00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:33,080 Mm-hmm. 321 00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:34,220 Sons of God. 322 00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:34,670 Mm-hmm. 323 00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:35,709 Adopted sons of God. 324 00:21:35,709 --> 00:21:35,969 Mm-hmm. 325 00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:39,420 Creates a house, a relation, a family. 326 00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:40,890 We're going to talk about what that kinship— 327 00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:41,210 Yeah 328 00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:45,230 —with the other people in God's house who have God as their Father. 329 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,180 It creates those relationships. 330 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:50,600 A different kind of—a new kind of relation, a new kind of kinship. 331 00:21:50,780 --> 00:21:52,850 And I want to move on and talk about that now. 332 00:21:52,850 --> 00:21:54,860 I guess it's talking about what does it mean? 333 00:21:55,290 --> 00:21:58,980 That in a sense, our church—we talk about church being a family. 334 00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:00,330 I'm part of this church family. 335 00:22:00,330 --> 00:22:01,649 We use that language a lot. 336 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:10,310 But how does all this that we're talking about—having a new father—relate to church being some kind of house or household or kinship? 337 00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:11,629 Yeah, yeah. 338 00:22:11,629 --> 00:22:15,889 I think it's really important for those things to be connected—for us to think about 339 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:23,510 church as family—Christian relationships as family relationships—because God is our Father. 340 00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:29,440 It's important we don't abstract our sibling relationships from that common belonging to God as Father. 341 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,350 That seems really important theologically to me. 342 00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:37,840 Our adoption as children into God's family is a fundamental building block of the way the New 343 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,149 Testament thinks about who we are as Christians, and therefore, as Christians with one another. 344 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,409 So I think that's crucial. 345 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,929 I guess Christians as family is a concept that's bigger than our local churches. 346 00:22:49,929 --> 00:22:55,085 I think it's important to say that as well—that we belong to all those who call God their Father. 347 00:22:55,355 --> 00:23:03,545 And so, this says something about Christian fellowship that transcends our local church experience—the church to which we particularly belong. 348 00:23:03,545 --> 00:23:07,385 This is why you can fly across the world and go on holidays, and go to church somewhere else, 349 00:23:07,385 --> 00:23:13,505 and find Christian siblings, and have a kind of a fellowship with them that's unique and rich. 350 00:23:13,595 --> 00:23:15,949 That too is a product of our common Father. 351 00:23:16,610 --> 00:23:24,739 But I guess in our local churches, we give particular expression to the privilege of being siblings with one another in the Lord. 352 00:23:24,860 --> 00:23:32,929 And I think that has all sorts of implications for how we think about belonging to each other and our obligations and responsibilities to one another. 353 00:23:33,709 --> 00:23:39,555 Yeah, there are number of ways the New Testament talks about the gathering—a number of metaphors, I guess you'd say. 354 00:23:39,615 --> 00:23:42,465 And they're corporate-type metaphors, like body. 355 00:23:42,645 --> 00:23:42,855 Mm-hmm. 356 00:23:42,885 --> 00:23:46,485 Parts of a body drawn together under the one head or in the one head. 357 00:23:47,055 --> 00:23:47,655 What else is there? 358 00:23:47,715 --> 00:23:48,375 Temple. 359 00:23:48,495 --> 00:23:48,825 Mm-hmm. 360 00:23:48,915 --> 00:23:51,615 One building with lots of stones being built together. 361 00:23:52,155 --> 00:23:56,365 Where does "household"—the idea of household—fit into that? 362 00:23:56,635 --> 00:23:56,845 Mm. 363 00:23:56,905 --> 00:23:57,265 Do you think? 364 00:23:57,265 --> 00:23:58,795 Is it another one of the metaphors? 365 00:23:58,795 --> 00:23:59,755 Is it different from that? 366 00:24:00,025 --> 00:24:00,835 Mm. Yeah. 367 00:24:01,045 --> 00:24:07,075 I think the conviction that I've arrived at, Tony, and not everybody will share this conclusion, but is that our belonging to one 368 00:24:07,075 --> 00:24:16,855 another as Christian family is not metaphorical in the way those other things like temple, body are metaphors in the New Testament. 369 00:24:17,665 --> 00:24:21,205 I think to belong to one another as siblings could only be metaphorical if to 370 00:24:21,205 --> 00:24:24,205 belong to God as Father was metaphorical, and I don't think that's a metaphor. 371 00:24:24,415 --> 00:24:24,445 Mm. 372 00:24:24,445 --> 00:24:27,445 You know, God really is our Father. 373 00:24:27,535 --> 00:24:30,085 We really are adopted into his family. 374 00:24:30,504 --> 00:24:37,465 God's fatherhood is not an idea drawn from our human families by which we can understand who he is to us. 375 00:24:37,645 --> 00:24:38,905 He is our Father. 376 00:24:38,905 --> 00:24:42,350 Our human family is a derivative of him, not the other way around. 377 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:50,225 So I think in the same way, our relationship to one another as siblings is real, not metaphorical. 378 00:24:50,225 --> 00:24:52,475 I think that's an important distinction to make. 379 00:24:53,044 --> 00:24:53,195 Yeah. 380 00:24:53,195 --> 00:24:53,975 Does that make any sense? 381 00:24:54,215 --> 00:24:54,875 It does. 382 00:24:54,875 --> 00:25:00,725 I mean, metaphor is one of those things that you know it when you see it, and we all know what a metaphor is, and we use metaphors all the time. 383 00:25:00,725 --> 00:25:06,365 But as soon as you try and explain metaphor or account for metaphor theoretically, it all of a sudden gets really, really, really complicated. 384 00:25:06,485 --> 00:25:06,605 Mm-hmm. 385 00:25:07,115 --> 00:25:10,084 Because there's a sense in which all language is metaphorical. 386 00:25:10,175 --> 00:25:10,415 Mm. 387 00:25:10,865 --> 00:25:17,420 In that if I say the syllables "father", that's clearly not a father; it's a set of syllables. 388 00:25:18,050 --> 00:25:18,080 Mm. 389 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,000 So it's different from the thing that is a father, but it refers to that father. 390 00:25:22,030 --> 00:25:25,400 So in one kind of, you know, really big sense, language is metaphorical. 391 00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:27,140 You're taking me back to my English degree at university. 392 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:27,440 That's right! 393 00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:28,070 Exactly. 394 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:31,250 We're going to get lost in, in semiotics and all kinds of linguistics in a second. 395 00:25:31,250 --> 00:25:33,939 Oh, Jacques Derrida just entered the room. 396 00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:36,320 I dunno whether to take that as an insult or a compliment. 397 00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:38,300 Um, probably both. 398 00:25:38,660 --> 00:25:46,715 But I think I like where you're going with this, because the normal way we use a metaphor is to say, a metaphor is a way of talking about something— 399 00:25:46,895 --> 00:25:47,015 Mm-hmm 400 00:25:47,045 --> 00:25:51,845 —by comparing it or talking about it in terms to something that it clearly is not. 401 00:25:51,965 --> 00:25:52,115 Mm-hmm. 402 00:25:52,445 --> 00:25:54,725 So "my love is a red, red rose". 403 00:25:55,685 --> 00:25:59,405 My love, my—the woman I'm talking about is clearly not a rose in all kinds of ways. 404 00:25:59,405 --> 00:26:03,695 But the fact that it isn't like a rose, but is like a rose is where the power of metaphor comes. 405 00:26:04,115 --> 00:26:07,580 And in that sense, the church as a body, well, it's clearly not a body. 406 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,959 It's not a single being consisting of elbows and other things, but it clearly is in another way. 407 00:26:11,959 --> 00:26:14,750 And you'd say the same about a temple: it clearly isn't a temple. 408 00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:14,959 Mm-hmm. 409 00:26:14,959 --> 00:26:16,040 It's not a physical building. 410 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,030 But it is in other ways. 411 00:26:17,060 --> 00:26:17,179 Mm-hmm. 412 00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:24,514 And I think if, what I hear you saying is when we come to think of church as family, it's not quite metaphorical in that sense. 413 00:26:24,514 --> 00:26:29,584 And then you say, "Oh, it is like fatherhood, family and relation, except not at all. 414 00:26:29,584 --> 00:26:33,995 But no, actually, it is very much like kinship and father and family. 415 00:26:33,995 --> 00:26:39,935 In fact, it is a kinship and a father and a family in a way that we wouldn't normally say is metaphorical. 416 00:26:40,075 --> 00:26:40,465 Yes. 417 00:26:40,534 --> 00:26:45,004 It's not as obviously different than in a way that many metaphors, or most metaphors, are. 418 00:26:45,004 --> 00:26:45,215 So— 419 00:26:45,334 --> 00:26:45,574 Yes. 420 00:26:45,635 --> 00:26:53,450 I like what you're saying—that we really do have a new Father and therefore, we really do have a new kinship/relationship of brothers and sisters— 421 00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:53,510 Hmm 422 00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:54,620 —with one another. 423 00:26:54,650 --> 00:26:59,750 And that says something profound about the relationship we have with every person we gather with on 424 00:26:59,750 --> 00:27:04,190 a Sunday, but also the broader Christian—we would say community or the broader Christian fellowship. 425 00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:11,540 Fellowship's another very interesting concept that connects with the—a group of people who have someone or something profoundly in common. 426 00:27:11,810 --> 00:27:16,040 In this case, when it's a fellowship that has a Father in common, we call them a household. 427 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:16,460 Yeah. 428 00:27:16,670 --> 00:27:17,240 Or a family. 429 00:27:17,450 --> 00:27:17,840 Yeah. 430 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:21,380 And I think the reason this is important is because we tend to think about 431 00:27:21,470 --> 00:27:26,120 metaphorical languages sort of being poetic and therefore almost sort of fictional. 432 00:27:26,180 --> 00:27:26,600 Yeah, yeah. 433 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,610 You know, whereas, I think it's so important for us to understand that there's no fiction to this. 434 00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:32,120 Yeah. 435 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,690 There's a kind of fiction to saying that church is a body: it's like a body in these 436 00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:39,350 ways, but there's a very real sense in which it's not, like you're just saying. 437 00:27:39,710 --> 00:27:44,885 I don't think that's true of our kinship—of our belonging to God and his people. 438 00:27:45,395 --> 00:27:48,695 My brother I sit next to in the pew at church on a Sunday is not just like a 439 00:27:48,695 --> 00:27:55,715 brother; he is my brother, and my relationship to him ought to reflect that reality. 440 00:27:56,135 --> 00:27:58,625 There's no fiction to that, and I think that's really important. 441 00:27:59,254 --> 00:28:01,985 Two things I'd like to follow up on this—this this is really interesting. 442 00:28:02,345 --> 00:28:09,084 Firstly, while I agree with where you've come to that we do really have a different family—a different fatherhood, a 443 00:28:09,084 --> 00:28:16,584 different house we belong to, in a sense, there is a danger, isn't there, in kind of reading what we think of as family. 444 00:28:16,584 --> 00:28:20,365 So we think family, we think the nature of what we think of family being and our culture, 445 00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:25,280 and kind of reading certain values off that, and saying church should be like that. 446 00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:25,340 Mm. 447 00:28:25,790 --> 00:28:34,430 So I feel like it ought to run the other way, in many ways—that maybe we should read off what we see happening in God's family, into our family— 448 00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:34,700 Yes 449 00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:36,080 —rather than necessarily the other way. 450 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:36,950 But do you want to comment on that? 451 00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:37,370 Yes, I do. 452 00:28:37,370 --> 00:28:42,590 I mean, I think that's why this is so important, because we get ourselves in all sorts of trouble, don't we, when we run in the other direction. 453 00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:49,594 And when we say God is a Father to us like our fathers, when we sort of read in that direction, you know: what is God's fatherhood like? 454 00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:54,125 Well, the Bible must use that language, because it wants us to think about our own fathers, 455 00:28:54,125 --> 00:28:57,905 and then think about what God's like, when that gets us in all sorts of trouble, doesn't it? 456 00:28:58,115 --> 00:29:05,409 And I think the same is true: if we think of our Christian community, our church family, as something that we 457 00:29:05,409 --> 00:29:09,979 must interpret in the light of our own experiences of our family, we're going to run aground in all sorts of ways. 458 00:29:09,979 --> 00:29:15,070 We're going to have expectations that are actually different to the kind of expectations the New Testament gives us. 459 00:29:15,550 --> 00:29:20,199 One of those might be something like intimacy: we have a kind of intimacy in the best versions 460 00:29:20,199 --> 00:29:24,520 of our human families, and obviously not everybody experiences intimacy in their human family. 461 00:29:25,270 --> 00:29:31,399 But if we bring that expectation with us to church and expect that everybody who's my brother and sister in church, I'm going to 462 00:29:31,419 --> 00:29:37,925 have the kind of very close relationship I have with my siblings at home, we're going to develop an expectation about the life of 463 00:29:37,925 --> 00:29:43,535 our Christian community that can never be met and which will lead to lots of disappointment and possibly disappointment in God. 464 00:29:43,535 --> 00:29:47,015 So yeah, I think we'll have all sorts of problems if we work in that direction. 465 00:29:47,515 --> 00:29:51,665 And we must work from the direction of, "Well, what does the Bible say about God and his family?" 466 00:29:52,054 --> 00:29:55,955 and working from there back into our families is a more productive line of thought, I think. 467 00:29:56,225 --> 00:30:01,745 And it would help us with some of the things we saw earlier, because if we start from God and how he conceives of family 468 00:30:01,745 --> 00:30:08,705 and what his purposes are for all of us as humans and for people in fellowship with him, with households, it's always, 469 00:30:08,705 --> 00:30:16,459 as we were saying, not an inward-looking self-focused, preserve-our-wellbeing-and-flourishing-at-all-costs, kind of— 470 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:16,699 Mm-hmm 471 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,870 —make ourselves the project of our lives kind of vision. 472 00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:23,510 It's how are we loving and serving those around us? 473 00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:25,429 How are we looking outwards to the love of neighbour? 474 00:30:25,550 --> 00:30:25,760 Mm-hmm. 475 00:30:26,090 --> 00:30:32,645 And so, it can be a problem if we have a family, a family culture in our heads of "Let's focus 476 00:30:32,645 --> 00:30:36,395 inwards. Let's all care for each other. All that really matters is we care for each other." 477 00:30:36,514 --> 00:30:36,754 Mm-hmm. 478 00:30:36,935 --> 00:30:39,785 Which is a kind of a slightly dysfunctional view of family, we're saying. 479 00:30:39,785 --> 00:30:40,115 Yes. 480 00:30:40,175 --> 00:30:45,575 But if we take that across the church and church becomes, "Let's all look inwards. Let's make looking 481 00:30:45,575 --> 00:30:50,285 after each other and having our close relationships the ultimate transcendent ideal of what we are"— 482 00:30:50,345 --> 00:30:50,555 Mm-hmm 483 00:30:50,795 --> 00:30:53,135 —it becomes that dysfunctional kind of church community. 484 00:30:53,135 --> 00:30:55,985 It becomes an inward-looking one, a kind of selfish one, almost. 485 00:30:55,985 --> 00:30:56,435 Yes. 486 00:30:56,435 --> 00:31:02,930 And you won't end up paying attention to the sorts of things that the Bible actually draws our attention to—things like hospitality. 487 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:03,500 Yeah. 488 00:31:03,650 --> 00:31:06,020 What does it mean for a church to be hospitable? 489 00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:08,780 That's kind of household language, right? 490 00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:17,150 And yet, it's precisely that kind of openness to the outsider, the willingness to welcome in those who didn't start here. 491 00:31:17,629 --> 00:31:22,730 And when we read in that direction, that will challenge us to think about what our homes look like as well, won't it? 492 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,910 What does Christian hospitality look like in our homes? 493 00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:28,250 That will turn us outside of ourselves again. 494 00:31:28,669 --> 00:31:35,250 It kind of connects with that old sort of debate back and forward about the degree to which your church is outward-looking or inward-looking. 495 00:31:35,250 --> 00:31:38,300 Is it mission-focused or more family focused? 496 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,750 And in the end, they're kind of false dichotomies, aren't they? 497 00:31:41,070 --> 00:31:45,889 The kind of family or household we are as the church is one that looks around 498 00:31:45,889 --> 00:31:49,100 us to the world and seeks to reach out with the gospel and make disciples. 499 00:31:49,429 --> 00:31:55,940 And the kind of mission team we are is a team of brothers and sisters, who are profoundly committed 500 00:31:55,940 --> 00:32:00,020 to one another and to the care and love of one another in Jesus Christ and in God our Father. 501 00:32:00,020 --> 00:32:05,150 And so, we kind of seem to flip back and forward between these two things in my experience, in our fellowship 502 00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:10,430 and our approach to things, whereas they lie together and they belong together in a quite unique way that 503 00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:17,265 we don't see in any other kind of human family or even human society or mission or purpose-focused team. 504 00:32:17,865 --> 00:32:23,445 The church family, the church household, is this unique mix of them in in a—in a completely new way, I think. 505 00:32:23,505 --> 00:32:23,715 Hmm. 506 00:32:23,955 --> 00:32:24,735 Yeah, yeah. 507 00:32:24,735 --> 00:32:26,415 There's probably a whole other podcast there, Tony. 508 00:32:26,505 --> 00:32:27,135 There is. 509 00:32:27,135 --> 00:32:28,035 There probably is. 510 00:32:28,035 --> 00:32:28,665 But we could go there. 511 00:32:28,665 --> 00:32:31,605 Look, let's finish this one, though, by saying what are the implications, do you think, 512 00:32:31,605 --> 00:32:38,260 Simon, for thinking of our church, our congregation, our fellowship, as the household of God? 513 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:38,770 Hmm. 514 00:32:38,830 --> 00:32:41,590 In terms of practically, what does it mean for us, do you think, as Christians? 515 00:32:41,710 --> 00:32:42,070 Yeah. 516 00:32:42,430 --> 00:32:50,360 Look, I think there are hundreds and, in many respects, I think the New Testament was written to help us sort of 517 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:57,020 tease out these implications of what it means to belong to our Father and to one another, and to live in the world. 518 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:03,320 I think there are some fascinating ways the New Testament does kind of spell out some of these implications. 519 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,840 There are some really key passages. 520 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:13,115 I think passages like 1 Timothy 5, you know, which starts with talking about the way we might rebuke an older man, as if he were your father. 521 00:33:13,685 --> 00:33:13,715 Ah! 522 00:33:13,745 --> 00:33:18,035 The way we might treat younger women as if they were your sisters, with absolute purity. 523 00:33:18,425 --> 00:33:22,595 So the New Testament sort of draws on household language for helping us think about 524 00:33:22,595 --> 00:33:27,575 how we speak to one another in the family, how we relate to one another in the family. 525 00:33:28,145 --> 00:33:36,215 Purity is an interesting thing, I think, because again, fascinatingly, places like 1 Thessalonians 4 talk about sexual morality in this context. 526 00:33:36,785 --> 00:33:40,265 Sexual morality as an expression of brotherly love, Paul says. 527 00:33:40,265 --> 00:33:42,515 That's not a category we tend to think in. 528 00:33:42,515 --> 00:33:44,045 Let no one wrong his brother in this. 529 00:33:44,045 --> 00:33:44,405 Yeah. 530 00:33:44,435 --> 00:33:53,045 So he's asking us to consider how we use our bodies in a way that reflects the fact that the people around us in Christ are our siblings. 531 00:33:53,525 --> 00:34:00,065 So I think there are lots of really interesting and provocative ways the New Testament presses us to think about that. 532 00:34:00,485 --> 00:34:07,445 It definitely presses us into thinking about what our affection for each other looks like, how we carry each 533 00:34:07,445 --> 00:34:13,145 other's burdens, how we rejoice with each other when we are rejoicing, and mourn with each other when we mourn. 534 00:34:13,475 --> 00:34:16,145 I think there are a thousand directions we could go in. 535 00:34:16,264 --> 00:34:20,815 It makes me think that I should come along—well, I am coming along to your talk on February 2nd. 536 00:34:21,074 --> 00:34:27,014 And let me encourage those of you who are listening to sign up and come along to the Priscilla & Aquila conference if you can. 537 00:34:27,554 --> 00:34:30,824 It's an all-day conference on Monday, 2nd of February here at Moore College, and it'd be a 538 00:34:30,824 --> 00:34:34,814 great opportunity to think this through further as you think it through further with us, Simon. 539 00:34:35,205 --> 00:34:41,245 But if you have any questions, dear listener, from what we've been saying—things that have arisen in your minds as we've talked about this issue, 540 00:34:41,245 --> 00:34:47,155 perhaps concerns or things that have struck you that make a difference in your own family, or questions you want to ask—please get in touch. 541 00:34:47,155 --> 00:34:50,605 We do love to hear from you, and I'll tell you how to do that in just a moment. 542 00:34:50,695 --> 00:34:56,765 But in the meantime, Simon, thanks so much for preparing for next February and bringing that to us, and thanks for giving us a sneak peek today. 543 00:34:56,855 --> 00:34:57,155 Great. 544 00:34:57,215 --> 00:34:57,875 Thanks for having me. 545 00:35:12,875 --> 00:35:17,615 Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. 546 00:35:18,095 --> 00:35:22,700 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website: that's 547 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:31,759 ccl.moore.edu.au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the 548 00:35:31,759 --> 00:35:37,775 way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre. 549 00:35:38,544 --> 00:35:42,294 And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make an 550 00:35:42,294 --> 00:35:47,125 tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 551 00:35:47,694 --> 00:35:55,370 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. 552 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,530 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 553 00:36:00,530 --> 00:36:01,580 Please get in touch. 554 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,399 You can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au. 555 00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:13,190 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and 556 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:20,690 editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. 557 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:21,570 Thank you for listening. 558 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:22,920 I'm Tony Payne. 559 00:36:23,310 --> 00:36:23,820 'Bye for now.