1 00:00:00,930 --> 00:00:04,440 Tony Payne: Welcome to the third and final episode of our special Centre for 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,610 Christian Living podcast series on "Neurodivergence and the Christian life". 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,310 I'm Tony Payne, the Director of the Centre for Christian Living. 4 00:00:11,310 --> 00:00:13,170 It's great to have you with us again. 5 00:00:13,650 --> 00:00:17,490 I do hope that you've had a chance to listen to episodes 1 and 2, and let me 6 00:00:17,490 --> 00:00:21,540 recommend that you do so before you listen to this episode, if that's at all possible. 7 00:00:22,050 --> 00:00:26,310 In those first two episodes, we set the scene, interrogated the question that we're asking 8 00:00:26,310 --> 00:00:30,990 and examining, and also looked at the Bible and its theology and what it has to tell us. 9 00:00:31,110 --> 00:00:38,925 And in this final episode, we'll be turning to think more deliberately and more practically about neurodivergence and the Christian life. 10 00:00:54,105 --> 00:00:58,660 And so to Part 3 of our three-part series on "Neurodivergence and the Christian life". 11 00:00:59,230 --> 00:01:06,430 In case you haven't listened to episodes 1 and 2, or in case your memory needs a bit of a refreshing, here's a quick recap of the story so far. 12 00:01:07,060 --> 00:01:10,270 In episode 1, we interrogated the issue of neurodivergence. 13 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:15,550 We listened to the stories of neurodivergent people, parents of neurodivergent kids, gospel 14 00:01:15,550 --> 00:01:20,050 ministers who are neurodivergent who are coming to terms with what that means for their ministry. 15 00:01:20,470 --> 00:01:27,245 And we also pulled back and thought more broadly medically, culturally, socially about the nature of neurodivergence 16 00:01:27,575 --> 00:01:31,925 as a real thing in our culture and in our lives, and the different perspectives that people bring to it. 17 00:01:32,525 --> 00:01:37,985 And so, episode 1 was very much a matter of interrogating and understanding this issue, and clarifying what the 18 00:01:37,985 --> 00:01:44,165 questions were that we have about neurodivergence in our lives, especially as Christians and in our churches. 19 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,840 In episode 2, we turned to the Bible to see what God, the creator of all of us and the 20 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:55,150 revealer of the truth about our world—what he has to say about this important question. 21 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:02,260 We looked at four important biblical and theological themes, and saw that even though the Bible doesn't mention neurodivergence 22 00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:09,430 as a subject explicitly, it has a lot to teach us about the nature of ourselves as human beings, as God's creations, 23 00:02:09,850 --> 00:02:17,095 as recipients of God's grace and kindness, and as recipients too of his Holy Spirit, who draws us together in churches. 24 00:02:17,695 --> 00:02:20,934 And so, in this final episode, we come back to neurodivergence itself. 25 00:02:20,934 --> 00:02:25,225 We come back to the experience of neurodivergent people and to the questions that we have 26 00:02:25,704 --> 00:02:29,994 about how neurodivergence affects our lives and our families and our churches as Christians. 27 00:02:30,485 --> 00:02:35,525 And perhaps the first thing we should notice is that with the theological framework of the Bible in mind, 28 00:02:36,125 --> 00:02:41,375 we come back to think about neurodivergence with fresh eyes—with a renewed and transformed mind, with 29 00:02:41,375 --> 00:02:47,135 a different framework for thinking about neurodivergence than the frameworks that the world provides. 30 00:02:47,705 --> 00:02:51,935 There are two main frameworks that the world uses to think about neurodivergence. 31 00:02:51,935 --> 00:02:53,435 They both have their strengths. 32 00:02:53,715 --> 00:02:56,174 But they both are inadequate on their own terms. 33 00:02:56,804 --> 00:03:01,454 One of them is I guess you could call the medical model of understanding neurodivergence. 34 00:03:01,605 --> 00:03:07,095 That is, it sees neurodivergence as a disorder or a disability that is to be understood medically, 35 00:03:07,095 --> 00:03:13,305 scientifically, and to be treated and cured and alleviated through various medical means. 36 00:03:13,755 --> 00:03:17,355 Now, this is a valid and worthwhile perspective, and has important things to say. 37 00:03:17,905 --> 00:03:26,035 But most neurodivergent people would say that it's not an adequate way of describing their experience or describing what neurodivergence is—to see 38 00:03:26,035 --> 00:03:34,975 it entirely in negative terms as disorder and disability, as a divergence from the norm, as something that is somehow not normal and not healthy. 39 00:03:35,445 --> 00:03:39,795 As we saw often in episode 1, there are many strengths and positives to do with being 40 00:03:39,795 --> 00:03:45,165 neurodivergent, both for neurodivergent people themselves and within families and within churches. 41 00:03:45,465 --> 00:03:50,205 To see it entirely negatively—entirely as a disorder—doesn't seem to do it justice. 42 00:03:50,295 --> 00:03:56,115 On the other hand, the second main framework that's used for thinking about neurodivergence in our culture is 43 00:03:56,115 --> 00:04:03,315 more of a political lens or a cultural lens that sees neurodivergence not as a disorder or as a disability. 44 00:04:03,315 --> 00:04:05,625 In fact, that language is studiously avoided. 45 00:04:06,015 --> 00:04:12,345 Instead, it sees it as a social phenomenon—as a matter of human rights and political power—in which one 46 00:04:12,345 --> 00:04:18,995 group, the majority group, the majority social matrix, has marginalised and mistreated another group—othered 47 00:04:18,995 --> 00:04:25,005 them, excluded them—and the problem really is one of access and politics and power and understanding. 48 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:30,330 Now this second framework also is valid, and says something very real and true about the nature of the 49 00:04:30,330 --> 00:04:35,969 power dynamics of our society and the mistreatment and alienation that many neurodivergent people feel. 50 00:04:36,330 --> 00:04:42,539 However, it also is inadequate, because it doesn't have the resources to speak really honestly and 51 00:04:42,539 --> 00:04:48,390 straightforwardly about the negatives—about the problems and dysfunctions of neurodivergent life. 52 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:53,610 There's almost an overly positive kind of euphemistic reframing of neurodivergence 53 00:04:53,910 --> 00:04:58,800 as not being in any sense disordered or dysfunctional, but simply as being different. 54 00:04:59,550 --> 00:05:06,360 The great thing about listening to what God says about us and our world is that it allows us to speak the truth about us and our world. 55 00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:14,750 In this case, it allows us to recognise the positives of the neurodivergent experience and what's good about God creating all of us as 56 00:05:14,750 --> 00:05:23,510 different people with different strengths, while also being clear-eyed and honest about the dysfunctions and problems of life in a fallen world. 57 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:34,100 In episode 2, we heard the testimony of Laura about how Psalm 139 speaks to her of the goodness of herself and her own body as God's creation. 58 00:05:34,330 --> 00:05:41,080 Laura: One of my favorite Psalms, Psalm 139:13-14, says, "For you formed my inward parts. 59 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,210 You knitted me together in my mother's womb. 60 00:05:43,540 --> 00:05:46,210 I praise you for I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. 61 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:47,380 Wonderful are your works. 62 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:56,015 My soul knows it very well." And I just find that a great comfort—that God created me intentionally and that he cares about every part. 63 00:05:56,290 --> 00:06:02,700 Tony Payne: The Bible celebrates and praises God for the multifaceted diversity of his good creation—of 64 00:06:03,285 --> 00:06:08,235 all the different strengths and abilities and characteristics that he gives to each one of us. 65 00:06:08,655 --> 00:06:14,865 However, the Bible is also very clear-eyed and honest about what is fallen and dysfunctional and 66 00:06:14,865 --> 00:06:21,345 disordered in our world, including all of us, whether we are classed as neurotypical or neurodivergent. 67 00:06:21,885 --> 00:06:29,265 So neurotypical people have a great many strengths and abilities of an incredibly diverse nature, and also a great 68 00:06:29,265 --> 00:06:36,164 variety of dysfunctions and disorders and disabilities in their lives—brokenness in their lives of many different kinds. 69 00:06:36,465 --> 00:06:45,255 And so, to say that neurodivergent people also have a great variety of strengths and abilities, and also their own particular dysfunctions and 70 00:06:45,255 --> 00:06:54,480 disorders, is simply to say that we're all subject to the judgement and effects of the Fall and of the continuing effects of sin in the world. 71 00:06:55,050 --> 00:07:00,190 Christian theology gives us a framework to say both of these things honestly and with grace. 72 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:07,005 And speaking of grace, that brings us to a second main way we can come back to neurodivergence with fresh 73 00:07:07,005 --> 00:07:14,865 eyes, with a transformed mind, because the gospel helps us to understand ourselves as recipients of grace. 74 00:07:15,255 --> 00:07:20,655 It reveals the truth about us: that we're all weak and dysfunctional, that we're all sinners, 75 00:07:21,135 --> 00:07:28,155 that we're all in need of redemption, and that in Christ, we become a new person and a new people. 76 00:07:28,784 --> 00:07:37,724 And so, my value and my worth is not tied up with what I can achieve or what I can do, nor is it diminished by what I can't do or can't achieve. 77 00:07:38,265 --> 00:07:45,615 But my value and worth—who I really am—is determined by the fact that God created me and loved me in his Son. 78 00:07:46,034 --> 00:07:50,924 And so, whether we're neurotypical or neurodivergent, we're not constituted by our ability 79 00:07:50,924 --> 00:07:55,815 or our lack of abilities, but by the fact that we're a person loved and redeemed in Christ. 80 00:07:56,385 --> 00:08:02,715 In that sense, Christianity is not a system of merit, and it deeply and profoundly undercuts the meritocracy 81 00:08:02,985 --> 00:08:08,295 that dominates our world, and that makes neurodivergent people often feel marginalised and alienated. 82 00:08:09,305 --> 00:08:14,135 The gospel as it's understood and lived out, protects us from both sides of this trap. 83 00:08:14,435 --> 00:08:18,695 On the one hand, it prevents us from looking down on some neurodivergent people, 84 00:08:19,265 --> 00:08:23,825 because they can do less than other people or have particular dysfunctions of their own. 85 00:08:24,395 --> 00:08:29,675 But it also prevents neurodivergent people from thinking that in order to be valuable and 86 00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:35,135 worthwhile, they have to have some kind of ability or superpower that is valued by other people. 87 00:08:35,615 --> 00:08:44,065 The gospel and the Holy Spirit lead me to a new life, a life in which I'm already loved and valuable beyond measure because of the love of Christ. 88 00:08:44,485 --> 00:08:52,165 It sets me free to stop thinking about myself and instead to start focusing on loving others and serving them. 89 00:08:52,495 --> 00:09:00,535 Alex: I'm a lot happier when I don't make my identity the core thing about autism, like searching inside myself to find the truth. 90 00:09:00,625 --> 00:09:02,240 That makes me absolutely miserable in the end. 91 00:09:03,045 --> 00:09:04,605 But when I'm like, "God made me. 92 00:09:05,025 --> 00:09:07,095 My identity is that I'm his daughter. 93 00:09:07,335 --> 00:09:10,215 And he made me perfectly and he knows me perfectly. 94 00:09:10,215 --> 00:09:16,935 And even if no one else gets me today—if everyone misunderstands everything I say—I'm still perfectly known 95 00:09:16,935 --> 00:09:23,685 and perfectly loved by him." And, like, I think that just gives me a comfort and a help with the loneliness. 96 00:09:23,925 --> 00:09:28,155 Like, it's still quite hard, feeling sometimes, like, other Christians don't quite understand. 97 00:09:28,155 --> 00:09:29,775 But we serve a God who does. 98 00:09:30,135 --> 00:09:37,165 Tony Payne: That was Alex, talking about the profound change in awareness that comes when the gospel of Jesus invades your life—when 99 00:09:37,185 --> 00:09:45,945 you realise that your old life is over and a new life has begun, a life that is hid with Christ in God, as Paul says in Colossians 3. 100 00:09:46,095 --> 00:09:53,835 And this profound change of awareness is true for neurotypical and neurodivergent people in exactly the same way, and it leads in 101 00:09:53,835 --> 00:10:03,015 turn to a new life, a life in which we put to death the evil habits and behaviours of our old selves, and put on a new way of living. 102 00:10:03,525 --> 00:10:08,730 In this sense, it's very important to say as we think about neurodivergence and the Christian life and what it means 103 00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:15,870 practically, that practically, it means a great deal the same for a neurotypical person and a neurodivergent person. 104 00:10:16,350 --> 00:10:21,270 For all of us, it's a life of thanksgiving and of praise, a life of faith and love and 105 00:10:21,270 --> 00:10:27,010 hope, a life of transformation in our thinking and in our loves and in our actions. 106 00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:32,890 But there is a particular aspect of the Christian life that neurodivergent people often find particularly challenging. 107 00:10:33,250 --> 00:10:40,290 What are we to do and what are we to think when some aspect of our neurodivergence—some consequence of the 108 00:10:40,290 --> 00:10:46,560 particular way our brain is wired—seems to make the Christian life very difficult—seems to sabotage us? 109 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:50,670 For example, one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control. 110 00:10:51,360 --> 00:11:00,090 What do we do when our whole body seems to prevent us being self-controlled—when we have a meltdown or an implosion or an explosion, in which 111 00:11:00,090 --> 00:11:07,920 we don't seem to have any control over ourselves whatsoever, and during which we often say or do things that we profoundly regret later on? 112 00:11:08,645 --> 00:11:16,835 In one of my conversations with Kate Morris, she gave this example of a Christian friend of hers who deals with these issues in this way. 113 00:11:16,985 --> 00:11:22,005 Kate Morris: I asked one lady who—she works in ministry, she's autistic, she's also ADHD. 114 00:11:22,025 --> 00:11:23,705 She experiences meltdowns. 115 00:11:24,155 --> 00:11:31,595 I asked her to explain to me what she sees is the relationship between sin and what's going on in her body. 116 00:11:31,775 --> 00:11:39,100 And she said to me that—she kind of asked the question, "Is it that because you understand that 117 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:44,320 my body has experienced such pressure from being at church or something that it's melting down and 118 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:49,450 therefore I'm absolved from all responsibility?" And she said, that's not really how we approach things. 119 00:11:49,450 --> 00:11:57,545 She suggested that we live in a broken world with broken bodies—with wayward hearts inclined to sin—and we're going to sin. 120 00:11:57,905 --> 00:12:00,015 And when we sin, we need to apologise. 121 00:12:00,035 --> 00:12:01,175 We need to say sorry. 122 00:12:01,235 --> 00:12:08,975 And so, for her, when she has a meltdown, she asks that her family is understanding to her and sees what's been going on in her life. 123 00:12:09,035 --> 00:12:18,170 But she will say sorry for what she's done and work on rebuilding those relationships and hearing the family's experiences in that. 124 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:26,270 And she's also working with an occupational therapist and a psychologist in order to bring down those triggers—in order to identify when she's 125 00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:34,610 building up to a meltdown, which is a loving approach, so that she can actually work to not getting to the meltdown stage quite so easily. 126 00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:38,480 Tony Payne: What's striking and impressive about this lady's response to her own 127 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,920 meltdowns and to the effects of those meltdowns is just how thoroughly Christian it is. 128 00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:51,560 That is, it recognises what the New Testament also recognises: that our bodies, our flesh, the presence of sin living within us, 129 00:12:52,100 --> 00:13:00,110 will often lead us to do things that, really, in our truer selves, we don't want to do—that sense of "I do not do the good that I 130 00:13:00,110 --> 00:13:07,160 wish I would do, and I do the very thing I wish I wouldn't do" that's there in Romans 7 and it's certainly also there in Galatians 5. 131 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:13,050 The Christian life is a constant battle between the bad habits and actions of our bodies—our flesh, 132 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:18,660 our former selves, our old selves, our old habits, what our bodies do almost on their own sometimes, it 133 00:13:18,660 --> 00:13:24,329 seems—and the new life that's been planted within us—the new mind, the new heart that has a new set of loves. 134 00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:30,630 And the lady that Kate talks about responds in a way that we should respond to all sin in our lives: she laments the 135 00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:37,589 wrong things that she's done; she takes responsibility for what she's done; she apologises and seeks to make redress 136 00:13:37,589 --> 00:13:46,275 where she can; she shows herself and others some grace; she remembers that God forgives, and she forgives herself for 137 00:13:46,305 --> 00:13:52,515 the way that her body has led her astray; and she also seeks to learn something and to grow through the experience. 138 00:13:53,145 --> 00:13:55,095 What was it that led to that loss of control? 139 00:13:55,095 --> 00:14:01,335 What triggers or factors in my life led me to that point where I did lose control and behaved poorly? 140 00:14:01,785 --> 00:14:09,335 This is where a diagnosis of neurodivergence—of ADHD or autism—can actually be quite helpful in living the Christian life. 141 00:14:09,335 --> 00:14:15,814 And many of the neurodivergent people we spoke to testified to this—that it gave them an understanding of themselves 142 00:14:15,814 --> 00:14:22,115 and of why they reacted in certain ways in certain situations that actually helped them to manage their lives and their 143 00:14:22,115 --> 00:14:29,735 reactions—to be thoughtful and proactive, to avoid the kinds of circumstances or triggers that often led to difficulties. 144 00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:36,810 In all of this, it's not as if any of us, neurotypical or neurodivergent, will reach perfection in this life. 145 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,600 The key is to continue to make progress. 146 00:14:39,690 --> 00:14:47,310 "Let everyone see your progress," Paul said to Timothy in his letter to him, as he set an example for the saints in Ephesus. 147 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,469 Start with where you are—with your own particular strengths and weaknesses—and let 148 00:14:52,469 --> 00:14:56,849 everyone see your progress, no matter how small and faltering that progress might be. 149 00:14:57,510 --> 00:14:59,729 Put off the old and put on the new. 150 00:15:00,719 --> 00:15:06,359 Well, let's move on from the challenges of the Christian life and how it's lived to the challenges of parenting. 151 00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:15,150 How does a biblical and theological lens help us understand and respond to the particular challenges of parenting neurodivergent kids? 152 00:15:15,915 --> 00:15:20,505 Callum was one of the parents we interviewed for this project, and he had this to say. 153 00:15:20,835 --> 00:15:29,055 Calum: I don't think I've asked God "Why?" more in my life than I have since becoming a parent and understanding more about my boys' needs. 154 00:15:29,445 --> 00:15:37,215 I think for me, as a Christian growing up and as a Christian looking forward to parenthood, I had these visions 155 00:15:37,215 --> 00:15:44,025 and expectations about serving in ministry alongside my kids, bringing my kids along to holiday clubs and serving 156 00:15:44,025 --> 00:15:50,265 with them, going to church with them while serving in kids programs, having a vision of ministry together. 157 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,090 As someone who'd done a lot of kids' ministry, I was looking forward to that. 158 00:15:53,660 --> 00:15:57,530 And I wonder why the children that God's blessed me with aren't children for 159 00:15:57,530 --> 00:16:00,860 whom that's going to be a positive environment to serve in ministry together. 160 00:16:00,860 --> 00:16:04,760 They're not people whose sensory ability says, "Yeah, I can be around lots of big 161 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,760 groups of people." That's just not a space that's going to be conducive for them. 162 00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:13,590 And my selfishness driving me to say, "This is how I thought God was going to drive my life." 163 00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:19,010 But instead, having the humility to say, "Well, no, God's given me these great gifts of children. 164 00:16:19,454 --> 00:16:23,834 As a parent of them, I'm going to serve where he's placed me." And I think, I 165 00:16:23,834 --> 00:16:27,915 mean, I'm what, nine plus years into being a parent and still working that out. 166 00:16:28,425 --> 00:16:36,464 Tony Payne: Understanding his children's neurodivergence as both gift and challenge—as positive and wonderful in certain circumstances, and 167 00:16:36,464 --> 00:16:44,745 incredibly difficult in others—this was not only Callum's experience, but the testimony of many parents we spoke to of neurodivergent kids. 168 00:16:45,135 --> 00:16:52,155 Among them was Kate Morris, and Kate had some really helpful things to say, not only about the practicalities of raising and 169 00:16:52,155 --> 00:17:00,055 dealing with neurodivergent kids, but also of the whole new perspective that the gospel gives to parenting a neurodivergent family. 170 00:17:00,205 --> 00:17:07,135 Kate Morris: I think for me as a parent, the biggest thing is it reminds me that I'm a person who needs grace. 171 00:17:07,255 --> 00:17:08,245 I'm sinful. 172 00:17:08,545 --> 00:17:09,505 I'm broken. 173 00:17:09,805 --> 00:17:13,315 I'm inclined to serve myself more than others. 174 00:17:13,435 --> 00:17:18,295 I'm inclined to look at my capacity as the place where I'm going to save myself. 175 00:17:18,835 --> 00:17:21,505 I'm inclined to be self-sufficient and autonomous. 176 00:17:21,505 --> 00:17:33,420 I think I see my sinfulness in being a parent, and I know that Jesus is the solution for my brokenness—for my evil heart—and I 177 00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:43,140 know that he is working to mature me—with the work of the Holy Spirit, is changing me, and I see that as I parent my children. 178 00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:48,540 I think it gives me a really important understanding of who my children are as well. 179 00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:49,860 They're my children. 180 00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:53,175 But they're God's children: even more than that, they're God's children. 181 00:17:53,235 --> 00:18:02,175 And I can sit knowing that their futures are in the hands of the one who made the universe—the hands 182 00:18:02,175 --> 00:18:09,705 of the one who has given us salvation and redemption—and I can entrust them to the good Father. 183 00:18:09,795 --> 00:18:13,665 When I see I'm not a good mother, I know I can entrust them to him. 184 00:18:14,235 --> 00:18:21,060 And I think too, it reminds me that what I want for my children isn't to look like everyone else. 185 00:18:21,450 --> 00:18:24,660 I want them to look like Jesus, and that's actually my aim. 186 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,870 And I know that they're not saved through me. 187 00:18:28,350 --> 00:18:35,280 No matter how good a parent or how bad a parent I am, I'm not going to win them salvation or lose them salvation. 188 00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:38,430 I look to Jesus for everything they need. 189 00:18:38,970 --> 00:18:41,370 And that's remarkably freeing. 190 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:47,910 I think it gives a good perspective, too, on the times—there are times when the challenges, they just 191 00:18:47,910 --> 00:18:54,780 bring such grief, whether because the whole family is suffering or whether one of my children is suffering. 192 00:18:55,610 --> 00:19:02,629 There is grief in this and anguish and pain, and I know that together, we can look to God for comfort. 193 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,070 And I know that he promises to give us wisdom when we ask for wisdom. 194 00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:16,939 And so, even in those times of great difficulty, I know that we're safe and I know that we're not falling outside of God's plan even in those times. 195 00:19:17,010 --> 00:19:23,280 Tony Payne: The gospel of grace does give us a new perspective on everything in life, including raising our kids and raising neurodivergent kids. 196 00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:28,890 But it's not just a new perspective; there are still practical challenges—the challenges of 197 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:33,810 disciplining and raising these particular kids with their particular strengths and weaknesses. 198 00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:42,060 Those of us who are parents will testify that this is the case in every family—that it's extraordinary how different our kids can be from 199 00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:48,690 one another and how there needs to be different approaches to different children, depending on their particular individual characteristics. 200 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:52,200 And this is the case with neurodivergent kids, perhaps even more so. 201 00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:58,530 Here's Kate again, reflecting on the complications of disciplining neurodivergent children. 202 00:19:58,710 --> 00:20:07,290 Kate Morris: It is complicated, because with children who are neurodivergent, a lot of them will experience complications and triggers and 203 00:20:07,290 --> 00:20:16,435 difficulties—particularly outside the home, but also in the home—that will mean that they have a pressure build-up that can be quite complicated. 204 00:20:16,764 --> 00:20:21,295 So I think one of the most challenging aspects of parenting a neurodivergent child 205 00:20:21,295 --> 00:20:26,514 is if they experience meltdowns or shutdowns—particularly meltdowns can be complex. 206 00:20:26,785 --> 00:20:31,855 So meltdowns: unfortunately, we use that term interchangeably with tantrums, and it's not a tantrum. 207 00:20:32,065 --> 00:20:35,995 A tantrum is where a child wants a cookie and you can end the tantrum by giving them a cookie. 208 00:20:36,385 --> 00:20:39,895 They want something; if they don't get it, then they will kick and scream. 209 00:20:40,620 --> 00:20:42,600 A meltdown is quite different, actually. 210 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,960 We understand now that a meltdown is a brain explosion. 211 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,460 It's closer to a dam break. 212 00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:50,820 It's closer to a nuclear meltdown or something like that. 213 00:20:50,820 --> 00:20:55,770 It's something where the pressure has built to the point that they can no longer hold it in. 214 00:20:56,250 --> 00:21:00,215 So a lot of parents will notice these meltdowns happen in the car as they're 215 00:21:00,215 --> 00:21:04,530 heading home from something, where the child has held it in, or when they get home. 216 00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:09,735 And it's really hard, because this is the moment where a family would love to just relax together. 217 00:21:10,004 --> 00:21:14,294 But for some people, relaxing means releasing a lot of tension and build-up. 218 00:21:14,805 --> 00:21:25,425 So I think there are some stages of our approach to meltdowns, and the end point, the last stage, is actually where the discipline happens, I think. 219 00:21:25,645 --> 00:21:28,044 But I'm interested to hear what other parents say on this as well. 220 00:21:28,465 --> 00:21:32,094 So there are three stages of a meltdown, but I'm adding a fourth onto the end. 221 00:21:32,395 --> 00:21:37,614 The first stage is where the pressure has been building, and you can often see in your child, or perhaps 222 00:21:37,614 --> 00:21:43,735 they can identify in themselves, that they have experienced so many triggers that the pressure is building. 223 00:21:43,735 --> 00:21:53,014 So for some children or adults, it will come across as sweating, heart palpitations, jitteriness, perhaps an inability to sit still. 224 00:21:53,225 --> 00:21:55,145 They might rock back and forwards. 225 00:21:55,145 --> 00:21:57,815 They might lie on the ground and cover their ears and their eyes. 226 00:21:57,875 --> 00:22:04,655 And if you can notice—as a parent, if we can notice these things in our child and identify some 227 00:22:04,655 --> 00:22:10,715 ways to comfort them, then sometimes you can actually release the pressure without a meltdown. 228 00:22:10,774 --> 00:22:16,865 And so a loving thing to do as a parent is actually to be on the lookout for these and to be on the lookout for ways to help them. 229 00:22:16,865 --> 00:22:22,540 And so that can be a cooperative approach with your child at times where they're not experiencing this pressure build-up. 230 00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:28,900 "What would you like me to do when you're experiencing that? How can I identify that in you? How can you communicate to me that you're 231 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:35,650 experiencing that?" There can be things that will calm them down using the various senses that parents can figure out with their child. 232 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,700 But if it can't be stopped, then you're in the stage of the meltdown, and it's 233 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:43,900 really important for parents to understand, as much as we might want to say, "Stop. 234 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:44,620 Stop. 235 00:22:44,620 --> 00:22:45,250 Don't do it. 236 00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:46,000 You're being naughty. 237 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,710 You're going to have a punishment later," or something like this, that is absolutely the opposite of what a child needs. 238 00:22:51,950 --> 00:22:54,470 And so, again, it's a collaborative approach. 239 00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:56,540 What does your child want in these times? 240 00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:59,300 For many, they want to have co-regulation. 241 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:05,210 So whether that's you sitting in the same room, breathing loudly and saying things like, "This will end. 242 00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:08,210 I understand you're feeling distraught. 243 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,740 I understand you're upset. 244 00:23:10,169 --> 00:23:12,600 This will end." Or perhaps, "I love you. 245 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:13,980 I'm never going to stop loving you. 246 00:23:14,420 --> 00:23:16,050 God's never going to stop loving you. 247 00:23:16,110 --> 00:23:20,460 I'm right here." And in order to do this safely, it might mean removing siblings. 248 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:23,429 It might mean removing unsafe things around them. 249 00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:30,730 And before meltdowns, we can practice these things with a child, teaching them through cushions, not objects. 250 00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:39,290 "Punch the couch; don't punch yourself. Don't pull out your hair; instead, pull on the curtains." And we can work out replacement behaviours. 251 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:45,670 And then when they're coming down out of the meltdown, it can be tempting to jump in with the discipline right there, right? 252 00:23:45,670 --> 00:23:50,925 "You did this and this and this. Here's the consequence." But you risk going back into the meltdown. 253 00:23:50,925 --> 00:23:52,754 The pressure hasn't completely come down yet. 254 00:23:52,754 --> 00:23:59,385 And so in that moment, a loving parenting thing to do is to calm with them, perhaps hold them if they want. 255 00:23:59,445 --> 00:24:01,215 A lot of children don't want to be held still. 256 00:24:01,215 --> 00:24:04,605 Perhaps reading a story, hearing an audio book together, having the air 257 00:24:04,605 --> 00:24:08,054 conditioning on, weighted blankets—whatever the child and you have figured out. 258 00:24:08,595 --> 00:24:14,024 And then it's after this has really ended that you can start to think about what the next step can be. 259 00:24:14,054 --> 00:24:17,774 And I would suggest too, that for parents, you need to make sure that you've 260 00:24:17,774 --> 00:24:22,095 calmed down too, 'cause these can be massively difficult moments for parents. 261 00:24:22,514 --> 00:24:28,304 And it's loving to speak to our children and help them to understand the impacts of what they have done. 262 00:24:28,455 --> 00:24:34,665 Tony Payne: There's so much more to be said on this subject, of course, and Kate's Substack, which is called "An extraordinary normal"—we'll put the 263 00:24:34,665 --> 00:24:41,835 details of that in the show notes—is a great place to start in having that conversation and in finding your way to other resources on this topic. 264 00:24:42,254 --> 00:24:48,375 But let's move on to the third and final practical area we want to consider, and that's neurodivergence and church life. 265 00:24:49,095 --> 00:24:54,735 Church is simultaneously wonderful and difficult for many neurodivergent adults and kids. 266 00:24:55,185 --> 00:25:00,490 It's a place of grace and gospel, where we meet the God who explains us to ourselves. 267 00:25:01,030 --> 00:25:09,820 But churches can also be very unwelcoming places, unfortunately, for neurodivergent adults and kids, often without meaning to or realising it. 268 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:18,010 The lights, the sounds, the sheer number of people, the constant chatter, having to relate to lots of different people, one after the other. 269 00:25:18,610 --> 00:25:22,720 Church can be a really challenging environment for neurodivergent adults and kids. 270 00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:26,860 And what is most often needed is simply some understanding. 271 00:25:27,540 --> 00:25:29,550 Here's Alex's experience. 272 00:25:29,909 --> 00:25:30,120 Alex: Yeah. 273 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,520 Actually recently, like, I went to a doctor's appointment, and I was like, "Oh, sorry, I don't—I'm not in 274 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,700 a head space where I can process eye contact right now. Do you mind if I just keep my sunnies on?" And he's 275 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:44,055 like, "Oh, no worries at all. Do you want me to dim the lights?" And he just dimmed the lights slightly. 276 00:25:44,325 --> 00:25:50,745 And that experience of that doctor's appointment was the best doctor's appointment I've ever had in my life. 277 00:25:50,745 --> 00:25:56,115 And yet, the thing that he did was, like, so small, but the amount of difference it made was, like, crazy. 278 00:25:56,835 --> 00:26:01,345 And even, like, the other day in my Bible study, I was saying to the girls in my Bible study, like, 279 00:26:01,375 --> 00:26:04,375 "What do you think I should do on a day where I just want to, like, rock backwards and forwards? 280 00:26:04,585 --> 00:26:08,515 My brain can't process something to the level, but the amount that I need to stim to be able to 281 00:26:08,515 --> 00:26:14,455 process the environment around me is really intense." And they're like, "No, still come to church. 282 00:26:14,485 --> 00:26:21,254 But maybe just sit in the foyer where you can still hear the message." But, like, they're encouraging me: it is okay 283 00:26:21,495 --> 00:26:27,285 to do something that will probably—other people might not understand it at first, because they don't see me do that, 284 00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:33,825 because I wait until I get home and then I do that, and by that point, I'm so overloaded that I feel awful and horrible. 285 00:26:34,165 --> 00:26:38,425 Whereas, last week, I did that: I just rocked backwards and forwards the whole time. 286 00:26:38,905 --> 00:26:44,335 And at the end of doing that, afterwards, I was in a point where my brain, for 287 00:26:44,335 --> 00:26:47,575 once after church, I could actually process conversations we were having properly. 288 00:26:47,575 --> 00:26:48,895 Like, I took off my glasses. 289 00:26:49,315 --> 00:26:51,504 I had really encouraging conversations. 290 00:26:51,504 --> 00:26:53,990 And I went home and felt good for once. 291 00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:58,669 And usually, my experience of church is by that point, I feel really, really awful. 292 00:26:58,669 --> 00:27:04,939 And it's not because anything has gone wrong; it's because my brain gets to a point where there's so much stimulation that I can't process it. 293 00:27:05,330 --> 00:27:10,820 And I will stim, but I'll do mini stims that are more, like, probably socially acceptable, because I know rocking 294 00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:15,350 backwards and forwards will make me look like—to some people, they'll be, like, "Oh, she never does that. She looks 295 00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:20,899 like she's having a mental breakdown", because neurotypical people do that when they're very upset, whereas autistic 296 00:27:20,899 --> 00:27:25,350 people just do that when they need to process something—can do it when they're upset, can do it when they're happy. 297 00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:30,750 So yeah, it was really nice to be given that permission that no, it's okay to be yourself at church. 298 00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:40,320 You are welcome, and the level that you'll distract other people, it might distract someone, but it's okay if that's what you need. 299 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,520 Like, yeah. 300 00:27:41,639 --> 00:27:46,740 Tony Payne: When church is working well—when we function as a body where all the parts do seek 301 00:27:46,740 --> 00:27:52,770 the benefit of the other parts and contribute each in their own way—it can be a beautiful thing. 302 00:27:53,595 --> 00:27:58,754 Here's Sarah talking about how small group studies—small group Bible studies—can be a really 303 00:27:58,754 --> 00:28:04,095 encouraging place for her as an autistic person, especially if they're managed with a bit of care. 304 00:28:04,185 --> 00:28:07,815 Sarah: So I find that I really benefit from studying the Bible in a small group. 305 00:28:08,024 --> 00:28:14,565 For example, having that consistent structure, like, whatever method you want to follow, whether it's the SOAP method or the 306 00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:23,330 five Rs from the Uncover series, or you're working through some study guide for the Book of John, or whatever it happens to be. 307 00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:25,790 Just having that consistency is helpful. 308 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:34,070 I also find—this might be a contentious issue, but some autistic people withdraw and don't really participate. 309 00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:38,030 But then there's the other extreme where they kind of dominate the whole conversation. 310 00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:45,890 And I'm probably just as bad, but when there's more than one autistic person in the group, and we're all talking and butting in 311 00:28:45,890 --> 00:28:54,900 over each other and then going on tangents, it's really important, I find, to have a strong moderator who just gently pulls the 312 00:28:54,900 --> 00:29:02,280 group back and goes, "Oh, good points, but maybe we should get back to the topic, 'cause we don't want to be here all night." 313 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:08,910 So I actually find, 'cause I read a book years ago called Making Small Groups Work by Cloud and Townsend, 314 00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:15,460 and they made a point that the poorer the social skills in the group, the more need for structure. 315 00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:22,180 So if you've got six neurotypical people who have great social skills, you probably don't need as much structure. 316 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:30,000 But when you have autistic people in the group, that structure and that moderator in the middle—that facilitator who just 317 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:38,850 gently redirects the conversation back—I find is really helpful and it helps people feel safe also, 'cause with autism, 318 00:29:38,850 --> 00:29:47,480 we can accidentally make a comment that's hurtful to someone and not realise how it came across with the tone or whatever. 319 00:29:47,780 --> 00:29:52,730 So just having someone to be in the middle—preferably a neurotypical person, I'm going to 320 00:29:52,730 --> 00:29:59,900 say—who can just smooth over those bumps and just make sure the other person is feeling okay. 321 00:30:00,629 --> 00:30:06,450 Not attack the person who said it, but just, you know, that—the social skills that we sometimes lack. 322 00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:08,610 So yeah, I find that's helpful. 323 00:30:09,060 --> 00:30:16,260 Tony Payne: So you might be a church pastor or a church member, and you are thinking at this point, "Well, yes, this all sounds great. 324 00:30:16,260 --> 00:30:18,149 We do need to address this question. 325 00:30:18,780 --> 00:30:21,120 This is something we haven't thought about nearly enough. 326 00:30:21,149 --> 00:30:22,080 What can we do? 327 00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:23,580 Where should we start? 328 00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:29,760 What sort of action plan should we put in place?" In one of the conversations I had with Kate Morris, 329 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,035 I asked her almost exactly this question as someone who's navigated this in a number of contexts. 330 00:30:35,189 --> 00:30:36,330 And this was her answer. 331 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,520 Kate Morris: The approach needs to be the approach that we have to everyone who comes into our midst. 332 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:50,520 We need to be loving like Jesus loves, asking questions of people, hearing their experience without jumping into put them in these boxes that we 333 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:59,139 love to put people into, without jumping to fix the problem, without comparing, beginning with believing and asking what supports they might need, 334 00:30:59,379 --> 00:31:10,570 offering supports that you might be able to offer, and working out how this family or this person can be in our community, serving alongside us, 335 00:31:10,659 --> 00:31:19,775 working with us as a community, rather than segregating people out as separate people who we support, understanding that we're all part of this body. 336 00:31:20,135 --> 00:31:29,380 I think some practical things on the ground: I think most churches would love to have a checklist where I write down 50 things, and as long 337 00:31:29,380 --> 00:31:35,350 as they can tick off these 50 things, then they know they've got a church that's going to welcome neurodivergent people and we're done. 338 00:31:35,770 --> 00:31:38,740 And isn't it wonderful that we don't have that checklist? 339 00:31:38,740 --> 00:31:46,630 Because if we did, I might put something on that like, "Most neurodivergent people with sensory sensitivities find fluorescent 340 00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:53,940 lights very overstimulating, and for some, actually painful, so therefore change your lights to LEDs." Churches can do that. 341 00:31:53,940 --> 00:31:54,750 They can tick that off. 342 00:31:54,750 --> 00:32:00,390 And then they think, "Well, I'm done on lighting." But for another person, those lights are bright, or the LED has a 343 00:32:00,390 --> 00:32:06,540 particular flick to it that they can't stand, or how come lights are on everywhere and there's no dark place for me? 344 00:32:06,540 --> 00:32:09,450 And so, we don't want a tick or cross thing. 345 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,600 It has to be that we approach this with understanding. 346 00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:19,645 And I think a way to do that is for all of us to commit to learning what we can in this area so that we can ask things. 347 00:32:19,645 --> 00:32:23,365 "How's the lighting for you?" And not be surprised when someone says, "Did you notice 348 00:32:23,365 --> 00:32:27,385 that in the kids' church room you can hear the electricity in the walls?" "Oh, can you? 349 00:32:27,655 --> 00:32:27,895 Great. 350 00:32:27,895 --> 00:32:29,515 Well, let's work out what we're going to do about that." 351 00:32:29,905 --> 00:32:37,155 I think it's hard to, when there will be families who know that they need support, know that church is really hard and overstimulating, 352 00:32:37,155 --> 00:32:44,925 and don't necessarily know what to ask for, and that's where, if we've got some experience in this, if we've got some understanding 353 00:32:44,925 --> 00:32:50,715 in this, we might be able to gently begin, "Well, shall we try this? Shall we try that? For some families, this works." 354 00:32:51,135 --> 00:32:55,425 I think the underlying principle of being curious—I think that's important—but I 355 00:32:55,425 --> 00:33:00,615 think also being prepared to be flexible on things that we might hold so dear to us. 356 00:33:01,034 --> 00:33:06,375 We have a lot of things in our church culture here in Australia that we think 357 00:33:06,465 --> 00:33:12,534 is natural or that is biblical, and it's not necessarily natural or biblical. 358 00:33:12,534 --> 00:33:13,885 We can actually let them go. 359 00:33:13,915 --> 00:33:19,254 Can someone enter from a side door and not say hello to anyone and sit down? 360 00:33:19,314 --> 00:33:20,365 Would we allow that? 361 00:33:20,485 --> 00:33:22,014 Can we be flexible enough for that? 362 00:33:22,195 --> 00:33:27,774 We like our churches to fill from the front: would we be flexible enough for a family or a person to sit in 363 00:33:27,774 --> 00:33:32,875 the exact same seat every single week, so that they don't have to reprocess angles and lighting and so on? 364 00:33:33,294 --> 00:33:37,794 Would we be flexible enough to take one of our rooms in our church building 365 00:33:37,794 --> 00:33:42,084 and use it as a sensory space that can be quiet if someone needs to recover? 366 00:33:42,504 --> 00:33:49,135 Can we be flexible with our kids' church programs in order to allow a child to spend some time in a tent or on a rug or something? 367 00:33:49,195 --> 00:33:54,525 Will we put people in front of programs and in front of places? 368 00:33:54,525 --> 00:34:00,885 And I think if we have these sort of underlying our approach to people, I think it will help in 369 00:34:00,945 --> 00:34:05,895 welcoming families into our church and helping them to know that they belong and to feel supported. 370 00:34:06,165 --> 00:34:07,155 Tony Payne: Well, that's a wonderful answer. 371 00:34:07,155 --> 00:34:12,735 It seems to me, and a fitting place, perhaps, to draw this final episode towards a close. 372 00:34:13,335 --> 00:34:21,645 It's not really so surprising, is it, that the basic practical response to neurodivergence in our lives and homes and churches is 373 00:34:21,645 --> 00:34:29,445 some form or other of Christ-like love that springs from the gospel of grace—in how we understand ourselves and live the Christian 374 00:34:29,445 --> 00:34:36,615 life, no matter what our particular strengths or weaknesses or dysfunctions might be; in how we parent our children, no matter what 375 00:34:36,615 --> 00:34:43,845 their individual strengths and weaknesses and dysfunctions might be; and in how we love and serve one another as church communities. 376 00:34:44,430 --> 00:34:53,130 At each point, our practical response is founded on the central truths of the gospel—that each of us are God's good though 377 00:34:53,130 --> 00:35:00,900 tragically fallen and rebellious creatures; that in the gospel of Christ, we're all saved from the judgement of God, saved in the 378 00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:09,015 same way by his merit and his saving death, not anything we do or anything we contribute, and that the new life we live in Christ 379 00:35:09,345 --> 00:35:17,715 is a life of faith—being active in love; of thinking about others, rather than ourselves; in putting to death the lingering bad 380 00:35:17,715 --> 00:35:25,125 behaviour of our old lives; and of loving and welcoming others with all their different needs and contributions in our fellowship. 381 00:35:25,725 --> 00:35:27,975 There's so much more we could say, of course, about this subject. 382 00:35:28,605 --> 00:35:32,654 But our hope in this podcast series has been to open up the issue of neurodivergence 383 00:35:32,685 --> 00:35:37,455 within the Christian community and in the Christian life, not to provide the final word. 384 00:35:37,814 --> 00:35:42,015 To continue that conversation, we'd love you to get in touch with us and ask your questions and 385 00:35:42,015 --> 00:35:46,515 make your comments on this podcast series, and I'll tell you how to do that in just a moment. 386 00:35:47,294 --> 00:35:51,975 But we'd also love you to seek out good resources and conversations, and continue the thought process 387 00:35:51,975 --> 00:35:57,705 yourselves in various ways, and we'll put some suggested resources and next steps in our show notes. 388 00:35:58,245 --> 00:36:06,524 But perhaps it's appropriate if we give the final word in this episode in this series to one of the neurodivergent people we spoke to—to Peter. 389 00:36:06,674 --> 00:36:11,355 Peter: What we want to do is have other Christians to recognise that we are made slightly 390 00:36:11,355 --> 00:36:16,154 different, even though they can't physically see it—that mentally, inside us we are different. 391 00:36:16,245 --> 00:36:17,535 Our brains are wired differently. 392 00:36:18,075 --> 00:36:26,535 And even though we have weaknesses in how we communicate and how we act towards people, we also have enormous strengths. 393 00:36:26,955 --> 00:36:31,935 And so, try and embrace us not only for our weaknesses, but also for our strengths. 394 00:36:32,485 --> 00:36:39,475 And I think that's something that Christians should do, and as somebody with Aspergers and as a 395 00:36:39,475 --> 00:36:45,745 Christian, it's something I ask other Christians to do, and it's something that I do on a regular basis. 396 00:37:12,879 --> 00:37:19,765 Karen Beilharz: Digital technology like smartphones has revolutionised the way we navigate daily life and the way our whole society functions. 397 00:37:20,845 --> 00:37:27,895 We have supercomputers in our hands that can answer almost any question instantly and perform many tasks that make life easier. 398 00:37:29,025 --> 00:37:35,835 Such technology has its downsides, like the explosion of accessibility to pornography and the prevalence of online bullying. 399 00:37:36,435 --> 00:37:41,235 Even so, our stance as Christians is often something like, "Let's use this technology 400 00:37:41,235 --> 00:37:45,645 wisely, but not abuse it", as if the technology is simply a neutral instrument. 401 00:37:46,305 --> 00:37:51,105 But the good things of our world, like technology or money, can become much more than this. 402 00:37:51,345 --> 00:37:54,885 They can become master teachers that dominate and disciple us. 403 00:37:56,115 --> 00:38:00,075 In the next Centre for Christian Living biblical ethics workshop, we want to do 404 00:38:00,075 --> 00:38:04,605 more than share helpful tips on godly smartphone use, although such tips are useful. 405 00:38:05,175 --> 00:38:10,035 We want to zoom out and consider how technology disciples us—how it profoundly reorders our 406 00:38:10,035 --> 00:38:15,885 attitudes, operating beliefs and behaviours, not just personally, but on a society-wide level. 407 00:38:16,605 --> 00:38:23,985 Put your phones on silent and join the conversation on Monday 27th of October 2025 at 7:30 pm. 408 00:38:24,705 --> 00:38:33,435 You can register and find out more on the Centre for Christian Living website: ccl.moore.edu.au. 409 00:38:33,955 --> 00:38:50,975 That's ccl.moore.edu.au. 410 00:38:52,785 --> 00:38:57,555 Tony Payne: Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. 411 00:38:58,035 --> 00:39:02,654 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website: that's 412 00:39:02,654 --> 00:39:11,714 ccl.moore.edu.au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the 413 00:39:11,714 --> 00:39:18,124 way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre. 414 00:39:18,445 --> 00:39:22,255 And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make an 415 00:39:22,255 --> 00:39:27,055 tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 416 00:39:27,655 --> 00:39:35,330 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. 417 00:39:35,930 --> 00:39:40,490 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 418 00:39:40,490 --> 00:39:47,110 Please get in touch: you can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au. 419 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:53,220 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and 420 00:39:53,220 --> 00:40:00,630 editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. 421 00:40:00,690 --> 00:40:01,530 Thank you for listening. 422 00:40:02,010 --> 00:40:02,850 I'm Tony Payne. 423 00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:03,450 'Bye for now.