1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:05,270 Hello! 2 00:00:05,270 --> 00:00:07,220 Welcome to the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 3 00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:16,340 I'm Tony Payne, and welcome to Part 2 or Episode 2 of our special three-part series on "Neurodivergence and the Christian Life". 4 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:22,220 Now, if you missed Part 1 or Episode 1 of this series, I'd strongly encourage you to go back and listen to that 5 00:00:22,220 --> 00:00:28,560 before you listen to this episode, because it really sets the table for what we go on to discuss in today's episode. 6 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,280 In that first episode, we opened up the issue of neurodivergence. 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:39,210 We heard lots of wonderful and extraordinary and moving stories from neurodivergent people about their experience and about the 8 00:00:39,210 --> 00:00:45,660 questions and issues that arise from their experience, especially in relation to Christianity and the Christian life and church life. 9 00:00:46,570 --> 00:00:54,610 But assuming that you have listened to Part 1, which opened up the issues and raised the questions, this episode, Part 2, will be what the Bible has 10 00:00:54,610 --> 00:01:02,660 to say about these questions and how we might think about these things from the perspective of God and his revelation about his world and our lives. 11 00:01:03,220 --> 00:01:10,335 So I do hope you enjoy this episode, Episode 2 of our special CCL series on "Neurodivergence and the Christian Life". 12 00:01:25,225 --> 00:01:28,145 "Neurodivergence and the Christian Life": this is Episode 2. 13 00:01:28,335 --> 00:01:34,510 And just a reminder of what we've done so far: we've been following a process—a process in which we think about 14 00:01:34,510 --> 00:01:40,930 any question or issue that we have as Christians, one in which we firstly, assess and interrogate the subject we're 15 00:01:40,930 --> 00:01:45,720 thinking about and ask our questions from lots of different angles, and that's really what we did in Episode 1. 16 00:01:46,330 --> 00:01:55,130 But then to reflect biblically and theologically about what we've seen: how does knowing and loving God, and knowing and loving everything in relation 17 00:01:55,130 --> 00:02:03,020 to God, change our view or shape our view of the question or the issue that we are considering—in this case, neurodivergence and the Christian life? 18 00:02:03,020 --> 00:02:04,490 And that'll be this episode. 19 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:12,110 And then we also, of course, need to come back to our questions and issues, having understood them afresh, I guess, in light of the Bible and its 20 00:02:12,110 --> 00:02:20,680 theology, and deliberate about what kinds of responses—what kinds of practical responses and action—we would take in light of what we've come to know. 21 00:02:20,980 --> 00:02:24,450 And that's what we'll be doing in our final episode in Episode 3. 22 00:02:24,935 --> 00:02:29,975 So in this episode, we'll be looking at the Bible and drawing together what we find there into 23 00:02:29,975 --> 00:02:34,715 some theological judgements or themes that relate to neurodivergence and the Christian life. 24 00:02:35,045 --> 00:02:40,175 And since having me just talk to you about these sorts of things for half hour would be a bit tedious, I've asked 25 00:02:40,175 --> 00:02:45,875 my friend and colleague, David Höhne, to come and help me work through these biblical and theological ideas. 26 00:02:45,875 --> 00:02:53,045 And as we chat, we'll also drop in some really nice quotes and contributions from various neurodivergent people 27 00:02:53,045 --> 00:02:59,045 we interviewed for this series, and hear their perspective on the Bible and what it says about their experience. 28 00:02:59,045 --> 00:03:00,605 But first of all, David, welcome. 29 00:03:00,935 --> 00:03:01,385 Thank you. 30 00:03:01,505 --> 00:03:02,285 Who are you again? 31 00:03:02,285 --> 00:03:02,945 Why are you here? 32 00:03:03,095 --> 00:03:05,825 I work as part of the ministry of Moore College. 33 00:03:05,915 --> 00:03:11,345 I teach Theology here at Moore College, and I also do some other jobs here too. 34 00:03:12,245 --> 00:03:14,165 Well, thank you for coming along to talk with us. 35 00:03:14,165 --> 00:03:18,065 You teach in the Theology department and it's theology we're going be looking at, and especially 36 00:03:18,305 --> 00:03:23,745 four big theological themes that come out of the Scripture in regard to neurodivergence. 37 00:03:23,745 --> 00:03:30,829 But I guess before we go to those themes, I guess we've got to face the fact that, first of all, there really isn't any neurodivergence in the Bible. 38 00:03:30,829 --> 00:03:34,850 Like it's not—how do we approach that as Christians when we come to the Bible to think 39 00:03:34,850 --> 00:03:37,670 about—does that mean the Bible really doesn't have anything to say on this topic? 40 00:03:37,730 --> 00:03:46,490 I think it helps us to step back and think, "Well, what does the Bible think is important about being a person, and 41 00:03:46,730 --> 00:03:53,705 how does the Bible also help us understand some of the difficulties that we all have with being people?" And so, I 42 00:03:53,705 --> 00:04:02,825 think through that kind of a lens, that sort of produces a level playing field into which we might read a slightly 43 00:04:02,825 --> 00:04:10,805 finer grain of difficulties that people might have getting on in the world with each other, with themselves, with God. 44 00:04:10,985 --> 00:04:11,195 Hmm. 45 00:04:11,195 --> 00:04:11,915 That makes sense to me. 46 00:04:11,915 --> 00:04:19,144 So the Bible tells us lots about who we are and about our nature as people, about our problems as people, about our destinies, as people. 47 00:04:19,565 --> 00:04:22,695 And that tells us a lot about all facets of our life. 48 00:04:23,115 --> 00:04:29,715 I sometimes feel it's a little bit like saying, "The Bible doesn't tell us anything about cars. There are no cars in the Bible. 49 00:04:29,925 --> 00:04:35,595 But it does tell us a lot about how we should drive a car." And I think it's a little bit the same in this instance as well. 50 00:04:35,895 --> 00:04:40,725 As we look at four big themes we're going trace through, we'll find it actually teaches us a lot. 51 00:04:40,989 --> 00:04:45,010 It frames our understanding quite significantly about this important question. 52 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,570 And the first theme I want to go to is Creation, and Creation and Fall. 53 00:04:50,109 --> 00:04:54,280 And as a way into this theme, I thought we might look at Psalm 139. 54 00:04:54,789 --> 00:04:59,830 We're not going read the whole psalm, but let me just start off by reading verses 1-3. 55 00:05:00,369 --> 00:05:01,060 Verse 1: 56 00:05:01,310 --> 00:05:03,729 O LORD, you have searched me and known me. 57 00:05:04,325 --> 00:05:06,335 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; 58 00:05:06,395 --> 00:05:08,135 you discern my thoughts from afar. 59 00:05:08,135 --> 00:05:11,284 You search out my path and my lying down 60 00:05:11,284 --> 00:05:13,895 and are acquainted with all my ways. 61 00:05:14,284 --> 00:05:21,635 This is a strong theme of the whole psalm—that God knows, that he sees—and it doesn't matter, in a sense, who the psalmist 62 00:05:21,635 --> 00:05:27,815 is, where he's, what he's doing, what stage of life he's in, what his experience is; God knows and sees him intimately. 63 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:34,460 It's almost like there's no escaping God's presence or God's knowledge of the psalmist and his situation. 64 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:38,420 And we see that further down in verses 7-12: he says, 65 00:05:38,420 --> 00:05:40,100 Where shall I go from your Spirit? 66 00:05:40,610 --> 00:05:42,890 Or where shall I flee from your presence? 67 00:05:43,470 --> 00:05:45,150 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! 68 00:05:45,150 --> 00:05:47,220 If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! 69 00:05:47,220 --> 00:05:49,110 If I take the wings of the morning 70 00:05:49,530 --> 00:05:52,050 and dwell in the outermost parts of the sea, 71 00:05:52,530 --> 00:05:54,960 even there, your hand shall lead me, 72 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,660 and your right hand shall hold me. 73 00:05:57,660 --> 00:06:00,090 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, 74 00:06:00,090 --> 00:06:01,500 and the light about me be night," 75 00:06:01,950 --> 00:06:04,530 even the darkness is not dark to you; 76 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,930 the night is as bright as the day, 77 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,500 for darkness is as light with you. 78 00:06:10,980 --> 00:06:12,130 It's an extraordinary picture, isn't it? 79 00:06:12,469 --> 00:06:12,620 Yeah. 80 00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:17,479 I think it reflects—and we'll go on to talk about this a little bit—I think it 81 00:06:17,479 --> 00:06:23,060 reflects how special the human being is to God amongst all the other creatures. 82 00:06:23,719 --> 00:06:30,349 Psalm 104 talks about God feeding all the animals and watering the ground and looking after them, and all that sort of thing. 83 00:06:30,890 --> 00:06:38,030 But what we see here in Psalm 139 is the special attention that God gives to those who are made in his image. 84 00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:41,120 And that's reflected in the very next verse, which has a "For" at the beginning 85 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:46,490 of it—this sort of knowledge of each person, he says, is based on the fact: 86 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:49,460 For you formed my inward parts; 87 00:06:49,490 --> 00:06:51,770 you knitted me together in my mother's womb. 88 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,400 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. 89 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:56,810 Wonderful are your works; 90 00:06:56,810 --> 00:06:58,340 my soul knows it very well. 91 00:06:58,580 --> 00:07:00,380 My frame was not hidden from you, 92 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,390 when I was being made in secret, 93 00:07:02,785 --> 00:07:05,575 intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 94 00:07:05,815 --> 00:07:08,505 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; 95 00:07:08,805 --> 00:07:10,795 in your book were written, every one of them, 96 00:07:11,305 --> 00:07:13,165 the days that were formed for me, 97 00:07:13,405 --> 00:07:15,240 when as yet there was none of them. 98 00:07:15,950 --> 00:07:20,030 Now, the psalm we're looking at here, David, is a song of David—not you, David, but the great David. 99 00:07:20,090 --> 00:07:21,320 It's a psalm of the Messiah. 100 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:27,859 It's about God's knowledge of him that goes all the way back to his formation of him in the mother's womb. 101 00:07:28,190 --> 00:07:31,669 It's a song about his faithfulness all the way through from creation. 102 00:07:31,909 --> 00:07:38,945 And yet it sort of speaks to and connects to the broader themes of the goodness of God's creation: that all that God 103 00:07:38,945 --> 00:07:47,165 makes, he makes purposefully and makes for his good purposes, and that extends to each one of us as God's creation. 104 00:07:47,675 --> 00:07:52,730 How does it connect to the wider doctrine of God creating us as humans and the doctrine of creation? 105 00:07:53,294 --> 00:07:54,075 Yes, that's right. 106 00:07:54,405 --> 00:08:03,854 The first chapter of the Bible is all about God making the world, supervising its construction and overseeing its formation. 107 00:08:04,335 --> 00:08:10,965 And seven times throughout that sequence, God will do something, talk about it and then 108 00:08:10,965 --> 00:08:16,360 say, "And it was good." And when it gets right to the very end, he says, "It's very good." 109 00:08:17,170 --> 00:08:23,230 So one of the things that's distinctive in the world of creation stories from 110 00:08:23,230 --> 00:08:28,750 the ancient Near East is that the God of the Bible really likes his creation. 111 00:08:29,050 --> 00:08:31,010 He doesn't suffer it in any way. 112 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:38,230 He doesn't have to put up with it, or hasn't just made human beings as lackeys to take out the trash. 113 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:44,900 He really likes his world, and so speaks of it as being entirely fit for his purposes. 114 00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:50,750 Now that sense that God's creation, including every one of us, and we saw an example of this in his creation of the 115 00:08:50,750 --> 00:08:58,080 psalmist so intimately and purposefully and carefully—that his creation of all of us is an act of God's wisdom and 116 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:05,640 goodness—that he creates all of us according to his purposes, that's a special thing, especially for neurodivergent people. 117 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:11,580 And a number of people we spoke to mentioned Psalm 139 as having this resonance for them 118 00:09:12,060 --> 00:09:16,910 as an affirmation of the goodness of God's creation, and them as God's good creation. 119 00:09:17,210 --> 00:09:21,860 Here's a clip from an anonymous interviewee who chatted to us about her experience. 120 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:28,520 I think there is a helpfulness in other people who are neurodivergent to know that, like, they are not broken. 121 00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:34,520 But actually, the Bible says that we are specially and wonderfully made and that we are knitted together. 122 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,620 Like, the language of knitting is so beautiful. 123 00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:37,730 I crochet. 124 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,939 There's a real care that comes into it, and there's a real, like, precision that comes into it as you work your stitches. 125 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,730 And so, I think in the language, it's so evocative, the way that David is, like, and the Lord knit us together. 126 00:09:49,730 --> 00:09:54,020 Like, there's a care, there's a precision, there's a specificness involved. 127 00:09:54,439 --> 00:10:00,740 And so, if all those things are true, how can it be that God accidentally slipped and made you broken? 128 00:10:01,130 --> 00:10:02,240 That doesn't make sense. 129 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:05,720 And that's not true, because that's not what the Bible says. 130 00:10:05,870 --> 00:10:07,940 That's not what it means when he knit us together. 131 00:10:08,270 --> 00:10:14,990 And I think there's a real helpfulness in, like, people who are neurodivergent knowing that—that God hasn't made a mistake when he has made you. 132 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,860 And yes, the world is hard. 133 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:22,760 But God and his kindness is good, and in the new creation, all things will be perfect. 134 00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:29,420 Now, David, the reason that we're looking at creation and talking about the variegated goodness of God's 135 00:10:29,420 --> 00:10:37,445 creation and the fact that God creates people for good purposes is that historically, the issue of disability 136 00:10:37,445 --> 00:10:43,145 generally, and neurodivergence in particular, has been largely viewed through the lens of the Fall, theologically. 137 00:10:43,595 --> 00:10:50,915 It's been mainly about what's gone wrong, what's disordered, what's disabled, what's malfunctioned here in creation. 138 00:10:51,484 --> 00:10:58,865 Whereas, it's also important to say, in light of God's good purposes in creation, that that's not the only or even 139 00:10:58,865 --> 00:11:06,550 main thing to say—that God creates all of us in our great variety in his goodness, and that we are part of his good 140 00:11:06,550 --> 00:11:13,689 creation, even though we all also participate in the brokenness and the dysfunction of the Fall in different ways. 141 00:11:13,689 --> 00:11:14,140 Do you think? 142 00:11:14,709 --> 00:11:15,430 Well, yes. 143 00:11:15,430 --> 00:11:28,265 I have always struggled to get a grip on the term "neurodiversity", because at one level, all humans are diverse neurally in every way. 144 00:11:28,685 --> 00:11:33,905 One of the extraordinary things about the human brain is that, though it's basically made of the same 145 00:11:33,905 --> 00:11:40,025 stuff and basically the same shape, they're actually remarkably different from individual to individual. 146 00:11:40,055 --> 00:11:43,775 Well, interestingly, the way the language has developed actually reflects that. 147 00:11:43,775 --> 00:11:49,430 So within the literature and in the neurodivergent community, it's now quite 148 00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:54,890 common to use the term "neurodiversity" to talk about the diversity of brains. 149 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:55,340 Yeah. 150 00:11:55,340 --> 00:11:56,150 Exactly as you're saying, 151 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,370 I have a PhD from Cambridge University, which means that I belong to a club of 152 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:06,680 people who are quite diverse from the rest of the world and have been historically. 153 00:12:07,070 --> 00:12:12,405 But even within that, there are people who are quite different from me, even though we 154 00:12:12,405 --> 00:12:17,204 all belong to a particular kind of, I guess you would call, intellectual talent club. 155 00:12:17,265 --> 00:12:17,564 Yeah. 156 00:12:17,655 --> 00:12:22,425 I didn't get my PhD till I was 36, and I used to sit in class with 18-year-olds. 157 00:12:22,865 --> 00:12:25,535 That's quite a diverse amount of life experience. 158 00:12:25,714 --> 00:12:33,185 And the particular kinds of diversity that we call "neurodivergence" describes a minority brain, in 159 00:12:33,185 --> 00:12:39,935 many ways—a particular kind of brain that diverges from the majority of brains in particular ways. 160 00:12:40,265 --> 00:12:45,475 The reason I say it's often been viewed through the lens of the Fall is that the divergent nature of, say, an autistic brain 161 00:12:45,695 --> 00:12:52,775 or someone who has ADHD has often been viewed almost entirely through the lens of what's wrong, what doesn't work, what's weak. 162 00:12:52,895 --> 00:12:53,255 Yeah. 163 00:12:53,345 --> 00:12:56,885 Whereas the more we research and understand and the more we listen to the 164 00:12:56,885 --> 00:13:01,235 experience of neurodivergent people, you also find there are enormous strengths. 165 00:13:01,235 --> 00:13:06,020 There's a variegation of ability and goodness in those different sorts of brains as well. 166 00:13:06,020 --> 00:13:09,740 Well, that's why I raised the example of my experience. 167 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:20,960 What I observed in that context was quite a bit of neurodiversity, but all of the people in that group were good at the thing that the group valued. 168 00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:30,730 Outside the group, some of them may well have been labelled with the kind of neurodiversity which is not acceptable in the greater public. 169 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,000 Yeah and it was often marginalised or misunderstood in different ways. 170 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:34,120 Yeah. 171 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:34,130 Yeah. 172 00:13:34,130 --> 00:13:40,960 So it's—I think there's a lot of social norms which kind of invade this conversation. 173 00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:47,230 And so, that someone's diversity is fine if it's in the right context, whereas when it's 174 00:13:47,230 --> 00:13:53,420 deemed not to fit in this context, oh well then it's "fallen" or defective or whatever. 175 00:13:53,570 --> 00:13:58,730 I think what we need to say—I mean, we do need to say something about the Fall and the effect of sin on the Fall. 176 00:13:58,730 --> 00:14:03,680 And in fact, Psalm 139, interestingly—like, it's got a real kick in its tail. 177 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:08,210 Like, it's this beautiful psalm that we like to quote and put on posters about being fearfully and wonderfully made. 178 00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:11,095 But the final verses of the psalm are really quite horrific. 179 00:14:11,285 --> 00:14:14,960 They're about wickedness and God's enemies and hatred of God's enemies. 180 00:14:15,335 --> 00:14:22,625 Deceitfulness, bloodthirstiness, swearing falsely, detesting, rebelling against God, hating each other. 181 00:14:22,805 --> 00:14:29,795 From the perspective of Adam and Eve, those are neurodiverse behaviours, which have been universally condemned. 182 00:14:30,305 --> 00:14:31,485 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 183 00:14:31,865 --> 00:14:36,980 And it kind of reflects Genesis 1 and 3: like, you've got—Psalm 139 has the goodness and wonder and 184 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:42,410 celebration of Genesis 1 and the goodness of all God does, especially what he's doing for David the Messiah. 185 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:47,000 But it's got the rebellion and the wickedness and the unavoidable dysfunction. 186 00:14:47,390 --> 00:14:53,120 It's like we're fearfully and wonderfully made, but we're also fearfully and 187 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:58,084 appallingly dysfunctional and disjointed and disordered, each in our own way. 188 00:14:58,145 --> 00:14:58,985 Yeah, yeah. 189 00:14:59,405 --> 00:15:04,865 One of the things that we have universally—one of the neurotypically things about human beings 190 00:15:05,255 --> 00:15:10,475 is that they're envious of God's sovereignty over them, and they react to that in different ways. 191 00:15:10,724 --> 00:15:11,625 Yeah, very much so. 192 00:15:12,045 --> 00:15:17,474 So I guess to summarise, what we're saying is that theologically, leaning on what the Bible says 193 00:15:17,474 --> 00:15:24,165 about both Creation and Fall and sin, that there's a great diversity of goodness in God's world. 194 00:15:24,165 --> 00:15:28,724 Of all the different ways in which he's created the world, including creating people with all kinds of different strengths 195 00:15:28,724 --> 00:15:33,905 and different kind of ways of thinking, and their brains wired in different fashions, as you kind of were alluding to. 196 00:15:34,675 --> 00:15:40,505 But also, there's a whole diversity of ways in which we suffer from the Fall and from the disorder and dysfunction of the world. 197 00:15:41,165 --> 00:15:43,085 We're also all different in that respect. 198 00:15:43,085 --> 00:15:47,975 And that's true of every person, whether we label them as neurodivergent or neurotypical. 199 00:15:48,365 --> 00:15:55,655 We all participate in this diverse goodness of God and also in lots of different ways in which we're dysfunctional and which we find— 200 00:15:55,655 --> 00:15:59,195 Yeah, the church fathers had a useful way of speaking about it. 201 00:15:59,195 --> 00:16:08,240 They spoke about corruption—that sin had brought corruption into the world, and so all human beings suffered from this kind of corruption. 202 00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:11,480 The most obvious form of it is that we die. 203 00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:19,160 But of course, dying, sickness, ill health—that's like a spectrum in and of itself. 204 00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:26,900 And in the New Testament, often when people are referred to as having an unclean spirit, it's actually a degree of death about them. 205 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:33,439 So fallenness, corruption, is something that we all carry around with us in different ways. 206 00:16:33,439 --> 00:16:37,010 And it gives certain people different challenges to others. 207 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,910 And it kind of saves us from falling into one of two errors, I guess. 208 00:16:41,209 --> 00:16:47,780 On the one hand, to be only crushingly negative about the phenomenon of neurodivergence, as if all we can 209 00:16:47,780 --> 00:16:53,170 say about it is that it's disorder or corruption, because it's not; there's a diverse goodness there as well. 210 00:16:53,650 --> 00:16:57,710 But on the other hand, it also sort of saves us from a kind of false positivity—of 211 00:16:58,390 --> 00:17:01,930 trying to almost pretend that there's nothing disordered or nothing really wrong. 212 00:17:02,260 --> 00:17:06,490 And this is a kind of a theme within the discussion around neurodivergence. 213 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,869 And in fact, there was one woman that our team spoke with whose name was Sarah, 214 00:17:10,869 --> 00:17:14,530 who's autistic herself, who had something quite insightful to say about this. 215 00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:15,400 Let's listen to Sarah. 216 00:17:15,550 --> 00:17:19,125 There is one thing I might say, and I don't think I touched on it. 217 00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:27,290 So there's this whole debate in the autism space about, "Oh, the neurodiversity 218 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:33,080 movement and autism is this superpower." And you know, it becomes like an identity. 219 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:39,470 It's like, "I'm autistic, so therefore you have to be, like, I don't know, super nice to me" or something. 220 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:40,340 Like, or, you know. 221 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,930 But I find—like, when I first started to research autism, I'm, like, "Oh yeah, yeah, 222 00:17:45,980 --> 00:17:50,360 the autism, the neurodiversity movement." And it's true: I see the benefits of it. 223 00:17:50,450 --> 00:17:55,700 Like, for better or worse, we have autism, so we just have to make the most of our lives. 224 00:17:55,700 --> 00:18:01,130 So it does make more sense to focus on what we can do, as opposed to what we can't. 225 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,000 But there's a danger in being too extreme. 226 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:13,010 So I think in some circles, the dialogue has been a bit too ultra positive or whatever. 227 00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:19,340 In only talking about strengths, you can miss the real struggle. 228 00:18:19,370 --> 00:18:25,640 Like, 'cause there is this thing, it's like, well, people will go, "Well, if you're all IT whizzes, well you know, that's not a disability; 229 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:33,230 that's just quirky." And you're, like, "Well, yeah, but I'm not actually, like, that successful." But also it's, like, well, I need a 230 00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:41,990 lot of help with everyday tasks, and I need a lot of social support, and I can't live on my own, and I, you know, can't really get a job. 231 00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:50,315 So in some ways, I can see how people can be judgemental if all they hear is that "Autism is just a 232 00:18:50,315 --> 00:18:56,465 difference and it's not really that different from the rest of us. So, you know, we should exclude people, 233 00:18:56,465 --> 00:19:03,065 whatever." But then, when we don't measure up to neurotypical standards, then we're just seen as failures. 234 00:19:03,155 --> 00:19:04,870 So there's sort of that. 235 00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:12,975 But also, it's worth considering that I have Level 1 autism, which is like the milder end. 236 00:19:13,615 --> 00:19:20,930 But I know people—Christian families—who have kids with Level 3 autism who are nonverbal, 237 00:19:21,379 --> 00:19:26,810 will never look after themselves and, you know, have behaviour outbursts or whatever. 238 00:19:27,409 --> 00:19:36,379 My experience is extremely different to theirs, and it would not be fair at all to say that their autism is a strength. 239 00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:42,320 They might have strengths in their—you know, they might have a seventh skill in playing the piano or whatever. 240 00:19:42,919 --> 00:19:44,075 But a lot of them don't. 241 00:19:44,345 --> 00:19:48,905 So I think it's worth keeping in mind that they all have worth—we all have worth. 242 00:19:49,265 --> 00:19:51,275 But there is suffering involved. 243 00:19:51,605 --> 00:19:54,725 So yes, you focus on people's strengths. 244 00:19:54,725 --> 00:19:55,695 You don't judge them. 245 00:19:56,074 --> 00:19:59,030 But you keep in mind that there is suffering and you can't get away from that. 246 00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:01,160 That was really well said, it seems to me. 247 00:20:01,430 --> 00:20:09,140 And it leads on to the next theme I want to explore, and that's how we think about ability and our value as people. 248 00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:15,305 Because—I mean, we tend to think in our culture, as I think humans have often always thought, that 249 00:20:15,305 --> 00:20:22,580 the more able you are, the more meritorious you are, the more you can do, the more valuable you are. 250 00:20:23,375 --> 00:20:26,735 Yeah, I think there are a couple of things we can say to that. 251 00:20:27,245 --> 00:20:33,995 Our romantic culture focuses on self-actualisation and self-fulfillment. 252 00:20:34,415 --> 00:20:38,764 So the more you can do that, the more you can be fulfilled, the more you can make yourself 253 00:20:38,764 --> 00:20:45,245 the person that you want to be—not only the more clever you are, but the more moral you are. 254 00:20:45,785 --> 00:20:53,765 And then at a—perhaps, a more group level, our culture of supply and demand means that unless you 255 00:20:53,765 --> 00:20:59,555 can produce something that everyone wants, you're not valuable and what you do isn't valuable. 256 00:20:59,885 --> 00:21:02,254 And that can change like fashions. 257 00:21:02,735 --> 00:21:11,485 But that's an immense amount of social pressure on people to be able to perform at the right time to be valuable by others. 258 00:21:11,735 --> 00:21:16,805 It's why when people are unemployed, when they lose their job, it's often a crisis, not just in 259 00:21:16,805 --> 00:21:21,395 the sense of, "Oh, I haven't got money to do stuff for my family." It's a crisis of identity. 260 00:21:21,395 --> 00:21:23,675 It's a crisis of "Am I worth anything anymore?" 261 00:21:23,735 --> 00:21:24,575 That's right, yeah. 262 00:21:24,575 --> 00:21:26,945 "No one wants me. I have nothing to contribute." 263 00:21:27,395 --> 00:21:32,080 Whereas, the culture of Jesus—the culture of Christianity—is quite different from that, isn't it? 264 00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:37,419 Yeah, well, let's look at an example that Jesus gives in Luke 5. 265 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,700 This is just after Luke has called Levi or Matthew, the tax collector. 266 00:21:43,075 --> 00:21:49,765 And a discussion is generated between Jesus and the Pharisees over doing the right thing. 267 00:21:49,765 --> 00:21:57,865 Surprise, surprise, the question put to Jesus by the Pharisees has to do with eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners. 268 00:21:58,564 --> 00:22:00,274 That's a bad thing in their eyes. 269 00:22:00,695 --> 00:22:06,425 Jesus' response is actually really telling: he says to them, "It's not those who are healthy who need 270 00:22:06,425 --> 00:22:12,754 a doctor, but those who are sick. I've not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." 271 00:22:13,415 --> 00:22:20,074 Jesus hasn't come to gather around him the best of the best, the cream of the crop. 272 00:22:20,485 --> 00:22:29,510 He's actually come to identify a fundamental flaw in all people—that we are sick when it comes to being able to do the right thing. 273 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:37,070 And what makes us sick is valuing other things than what God values about us. 274 00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:43,460 Jesus has come to give us back the gift of value that can only come from God, that comes by grace. 275 00:22:43,865 --> 00:22:46,505 It's almost like telling us the truth about ourselves, isn't it? 276 00:22:46,565 --> 00:22:53,915 That we have this kind of false narrative that somehow, if only we can be able enough and do enough and be worthwhile 277 00:22:53,915 --> 00:22:58,775 enough in what we produce and what we succeed in, then somehow we'll amount to something that will count for something. 278 00:22:58,805 --> 00:22:59,195 That's right. 279 00:22:59,195 --> 00:23:03,455 We'll aspire to the heavens, and ultimately God will welcome us as his equal. 280 00:23:03,845 --> 00:23:05,555 But Jesus' kingdom is just not like that. 281 00:23:05,645 --> 00:23:09,395 It's not about how able you are, how good you are, how much you contribute. 282 00:23:09,515 --> 00:23:18,370 I mean, the whole point is until you realise that he is going to contribute everything to your salvation and is going to give you value in life and 283 00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:26,675 eternal life as a gift by his grace, and plant you on your feet and make you who you really were created to be by his grace, not by your effort. 284 00:23:27,125 --> 00:23:27,335 Yeah. 285 00:23:27,335 --> 00:23:34,895 He gives us a completely different vision, like in the beginning of Hebrews, where the heavenly picture is Jesus standing before God 286 00:23:34,895 --> 00:23:44,870 saying, "Here am I and the sons and daughters you gave me." That's the Bible picture of the pinnacle of our lives, not us coming before 287 00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:53,330 God and presenting a career, a family, a wealth, or anything like that, as sort of somehow everlasting confirmation of our value. 288 00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:57,649 It's the fact that Jesus nominates us as his brothers and sisters. 289 00:23:57,679 --> 00:23:59,030 That's glory. 290 00:23:59,570 --> 00:24:03,560 Now, why is this so important as a theme with respect to neurodivergence? 291 00:24:03,889 --> 00:24:05,780 I think it's for two reasons. 292 00:24:06,185 --> 00:24:13,825 The first is that for many neurodivergent people, this narrative—the narrative of ability, of achievement, of self-actualisation—has 293 00:24:14,405 --> 00:24:22,879 been one that's kind of left them marginalised and mistreated and alienated, because in various ways, dysfunctions and weaknesses 294 00:24:22,879 --> 00:24:29,840 they might experience because of their condition—I mean, they don't quite fit in as one of the able, high-achieving fantastic people. 295 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:36,020 And so, they have often been—many neurodivergent people have talked about this sense of being alone, 296 00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:40,820 of not being understood, of not being valued, of being on the outer, and that's enormously hurtful. 297 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,360 And what this says to us is that Jesus comes for every person—every person is actually like that. 298 00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:50,420 That's the true narrative about who we are, and that's who Jesus comes for. 299 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:50,720 Yeah. 300 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,130 He comes to save people like us who are, in fact, dysfunctional, and all of us are. 301 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,000 Yeah, yeah. 302 00:24:56,330 --> 00:25:02,270 And even those who we want to separate ourselves from when I pretend that I'm functional— 303 00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:02,750 Exactly. 304 00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:08,960 —Jesus looks past me to them and shows us both how to make our way home to God. 305 00:25:09,235 --> 00:25:16,340 And so, what the Bible is showing us here is that what we do doesn't bestow value upon us, especially before God. 306 00:25:16,939 --> 00:25:20,600 And what we can't do doesn't make us any less valuable. 307 00:25:20,719 --> 00:25:23,449 And it's why Christians are people of grace. 308 00:25:23,449 --> 00:25:30,930 It's why we've always been culturally at the forefront of caring for the marginalised, of welcoming the orphan and the widow. 309 00:25:30,949 --> 00:25:36,050 It's why true religion, says James, is to visit and welcome the fatherless and widows. 310 00:25:36,595 --> 00:25:42,595 Another passage we could read if we had time in Romans 14 and 15, it's a wonderful passage about our congregational life—about 311 00:25:43,525 --> 00:25:50,365 welcoming and accepting one another and not making distinctions among one another, because Christ has welcomed and accepted us. 312 00:25:50,485 --> 00:25:56,905 It's that marvellous way that the Anglican church service is supposed to begin in the Book of 313 00:25:56,905 --> 00:26:03,070 Common Prayer —that we start by confessing that we are sinners in need of God's forgiveness. 314 00:26:03,220 --> 00:26:06,340 And that's, in fact, the most important thing we have in common. 315 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:08,650 That's who we are gathered here. 316 00:26:08,770 --> 00:26:09,100 Yeah. 317 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,170 And you set that expectation right at the beginning. 318 00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:16,810 Now, this trap—this false way of thinking about ourselves; you might call it the "merit trap"—of seeing 319 00:26:16,810 --> 00:26:23,380 ourselves only in terms of our abilities, it can also be a trap for neurodivergent people in some ways as well. 320 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,805 Grant Macaskill, who wrote one of the really interesting books I read about autism and 321 00:26:27,805 --> 00:26:31,735 neurodivergence; it's called Autism in the Church, and Macaskill is autistic himself. 322 00:26:32,305 --> 00:26:34,525 He wrote this, and I thought it was quite insightful. 323 00:26:34,525 --> 00:26:44,149 He said, "We can fall into the trap of ascribing value to autism only insofar as it confers unique abilities." And what he 324 00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:51,649 goes on to say is that while it's really important to recognise the strengths and the goodness that comes from neurodivergence, 325 00:26:51,649 --> 00:26:58,100 from having a different kind of brain that can often do extraordinary things, it's not those so-called superpowers of 326 00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:03,209 the neurodivergent brain that make you valuable, as if somehow you've got to have a superpower in order to be someone. 327 00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:10,909 And it's not as if neurodivergent people only become valuable if they can play this game of merit—this false game of merit in some way. 328 00:27:11,570 --> 00:27:16,370 Alex, one of the people we spoke to in the lead-up to this project, said something about this that I thought was really good. 329 00:27:16,909 --> 00:27:23,210 You know the Tim Keller book where he talks about, like, "Humility is not thinking less of yourself; it's thinking about yourself less"? 330 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:29,340 Like, I remember that and I'm like, I'm a lot happier when I don't make my identity 331 00:27:29,910 --> 00:27:33,919 the core thing about autism—like, searching inside myself to find the truth. 332 00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:36,110 Like, that makes me absolutely miserable in the end. 333 00:27:36,485 --> 00:27:38,795 But when I'm, like, "God made me. 334 00:27:39,365 --> 00:27:41,405 My identity is that I'm his daughter. 335 00:27:41,705 --> 00:27:44,585 And he made me perfectly and he knows me perfectly. 336 00:27:44,585 --> 00:27:51,395 And even if, like, no one else gets me today, if everyone misunderstands everything I say, I'm still perfectly 337 00:27:51,395 --> 00:27:58,460 known and perfectly loved by him." I think that just gives me a comfort and a help with the loneliness. 338 00:27:58,790 --> 00:28:03,830 Like, it's still quite hard, feeling sometimes that other Christians don't quite understand. 339 00:28:04,010 --> 00:28:05,960 But yeah, we serve a God who does. 340 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,520 So Jesus comes to people just like us—to people who are profoundly disordered and 341 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,960 disabled in all sorts of ways, who are corrupted by the effects of the Fall and sin. 342 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:16,220 And he saves us. 343 00:28:16,220 --> 00:28:17,315 He saves us where we are. 344 00:28:18,345 --> 00:28:20,294 But of course, he doesn't leave us where we are. 345 00:28:20,294 --> 00:28:22,514 He transforms us by his Spirit. 346 00:28:22,514 --> 00:28:29,925 He brings a new power—a new purpose—into our lives, and we start to change. 347 00:28:30,105 --> 00:28:36,860 And that's our third theme that I wanted us to think about is how does the Spirit and the role of the Spirit in the Christian 348 00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:42,919 life relate to this theme of neurodivergence, and especially to the ongoing weaknesses we have in our lives as Christians? 349 00:28:43,429 --> 00:28:47,600 If we were going think about this, David—I mean, where would you go in the Bible to think about this kind of topic? 350 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:55,280 Well, the way that Paul talks about sin in the life of the believer in Romans 6, 7 and 8. 351 00:28:55,730 --> 00:29:00,680 So chapter 6 is that challenge not to take grace for granted. 352 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:08,870 "Shall we go on sinning that grace may abound?" The more sins that I commit, the more opportunities God has to be gracious, and won't that be lovely? 353 00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:10,700 And Paul says, "No, no. 354 00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:12,350 That's not how grace works. 355 00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:13,790 You've died to sin now. 356 00:29:13,940 --> 00:29:21,140 That's not part of your life." But nevertheless, because we don't have our resurrected bodies, we still have that 357 00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:30,925 corruption about us, which thwarts our efforts to try and live the resurrected life that Jesus has won for us. 358 00:29:30,925 --> 00:29:40,135 And so, and then in chapter 8, Paul talks about how Jesus hasn't just set us a whole set of new challenges as his followers, compared to 359 00:29:40,135 --> 00:29:51,145 not being his followers; God has blessed us with Jesus' Spirit to enable us to be his sons and daughters after the fashion of Jesus himself. 360 00:29:51,625 --> 00:29:55,225 And so, Paul talks about a "spirit of adoption" or a "spirit of sonship". 361 00:29:55,645 --> 00:30:04,385 That is a gift to those who have been called to Jesus through his death and resurrection, through overcoming our sin. 362 00:30:04,685 --> 00:30:13,175 And so, Calvin described it as "The Spirit makes the merits of Jesus ours." He shares with us the merits that are 363 00:30:13,175 --> 00:30:22,385 actually Jesus' merits, so that when I fail as a fallible Christian, I have a stronger sense of how bad that is. 364 00:30:22,685 --> 00:30:23,675 That's a change. 365 00:30:23,975 --> 00:30:29,425 But also, I don't actually have to just try a little bit harder to be a good Christian. 366 00:30:29,875 --> 00:30:40,135 God's Spirit is at work in me to make the righteousness of Jesus, the merit of Jesus, the goodness of Jesus mine in those situations. 367 00:30:40,345 --> 00:30:44,034 So God still sees Jesus standing in for me. 368 00:30:44,635 --> 00:30:51,770 So what the Spirit does is prompt me in my failure to turn again, to see that no, I haven't been lost. 369 00:30:51,770 --> 00:30:56,210 I haven't been accidentally cut out or missed by a whisker. 370 00:30:56,270 --> 00:31:00,470 "Good start, David. Thank you very much, but I'm sorry you're not up to this." The 371 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:06,440 goodness of Jesus still stands for me before God, and it's mine as a gift continually. 372 00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:15,280 And so, my behaviour becomes a matter of saying, "Well, what does the Lord Jesus deserve in this decision?" In this situation, he deserves kindness. 373 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,020 He deserves faithfulness. 374 00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:18,100 He deserves service. 375 00:31:18,370 --> 00:31:23,139 And even when I fail in doing that, I'm still considered the son of God. 376 00:31:23,679 --> 00:31:25,450 It was a wonderful balance in what you've said there. 377 00:31:25,450 --> 00:31:31,725 I thought you've been saying two things at the same time so beautifully—that the Spirit opens up a new life for us, a 378 00:31:31,725 --> 00:31:38,445 life that leaves behind the old and puts on the new—that no longer lives for unrighteousness, but lives for righteousness. 379 00:31:38,505 --> 00:31:41,115 And so, there is a new direction to our lives. 380 00:31:41,175 --> 00:31:42,495 There are new behaviours in our lives. 381 00:31:42,495 --> 00:31:44,175 We put off the old; we put on the new. 382 00:31:44,325 --> 00:31:51,075 And yet, at the same time, every time we fail in the process of doing that, and we do keep failing, 'cause that's a lifelong putting off and 383 00:31:51,075 --> 00:31:59,280 putting on, it's not as if we slip out of being Christian at that point, or we somehow lose our spot, or that somehow God no longer accepts us. 384 00:31:59,430 --> 00:32:01,350 I love the image you use: that he sees Jesus. 385 00:32:01,350 --> 00:32:03,060 He looks at us and he sees Jesus and his merits. 386 00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:13,910 Well, there's a sneaky kind of merit that slips into the life of some Christians that "Jesus gets you going and you just have to finish off well." 387 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:14,690 Yeah. 388 00:32:14,690 --> 00:32:19,070 Do your best to kind of keep up with the crew and get over the line. 389 00:32:19,370 --> 00:32:22,379 Obviously, Jesus has dealt with your past sin. 390 00:32:22,670 --> 00:32:25,430 It's now up to you to deal with your present failings. 391 00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:28,460 That's not actually the grace of the Lord Jesus. 392 00:32:29,630 --> 00:32:36,180 But the reality is that our sinfulness and the sinful desires we have, we still have them and they still battle against us. 393 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:41,990 And even though we are completely accepted because God looks at Jesus instead of us, 394 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,980 there's still the reality of those sinful habits and sinful desires in our lives. 395 00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:46,430 Right, yeah. 396 00:32:46,430 --> 00:32:54,170 And if your neurodiversity makes it particularly difficult for you to, at times, keep everything together, it's going feel 397 00:32:54,170 --> 00:33:02,190 like, "Oh no, I'm so hopeless. God will never actually accept me, 'cause I have meltdowns" or whatever that challenge may be. 398 00:33:02,190 --> 00:33:05,560 "I just was shouting at someone and lost my temper completely." 399 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:05,800 Exactly. 400 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:05,860 Yeah. 401 00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:09,490 "Had a meltdown and I said all these awful things, and so I must be a terrible Christian." 402 00:33:09,525 --> 00:33:10,210 Yeah, yeah. 403 00:33:10,210 --> 00:33:11,380 "How could I keep going?" 404 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:19,550 Well, we can keep going because of what we've just said: that God by his Spirit still looks on us in his Son and unites us to his Son. 405 00:33:19,810 --> 00:33:24,260 But one of the neurodivergent people we spoke to, Sarah again, had something really 406 00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:29,060 interesting to say on this topic—the topic of sin in the life of neurodivergent people. 407 00:33:29,149 --> 00:33:30,709 Let's see what Sarah has to say. 408 00:33:31,129 --> 00:33:33,830 There is this thing in neurodiversity movement. 409 00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:40,120 It's like, "Because I've got autism, you can't tell me that I can't do something or that something I've 410 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:46,370 done is wrong, because it's just my disability." And I don't think that's right from a Christian standpoint. 411 00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:48,370 I'm, like, we all sin. 412 00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:52,490 People with disabilities are just as capable of sinning as everybody else. 413 00:33:52,790 --> 00:33:55,640 It might be more obvious, but it's still sin. 414 00:33:55,730 --> 00:34:01,190 So, say, autism should not be used as an excuse for bad behaviour. 415 00:34:01,250 --> 00:34:03,379 So there's a lot of that going on in the community. 416 00:34:03,889 --> 00:34:10,399 "Oh no, we don't discipline him, because he's got autism." I'm, like, well, you can still have bad character and have autism. 417 00:34:10,580 --> 00:34:14,480 So not go too hard with the dis—like, still have that grace. 418 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:20,389 Like, it's the balance between "This is God's standard. What you've done wasn't okay. But 419 00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:27,320 I still love you as a person and I still want to help you and support you." So fine line. 420 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:28,550 Tricky. 421 00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:35,270 Society does not like to talk about sin and discipline, and the fact that we don't live God's way. 422 00:34:35,330 --> 00:34:39,500 But as Christians, we are still aiming to live like Jesus. 423 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,970 So I try to approach it with—I want to have a humble attitude. 424 00:34:43,970 --> 00:34:50,060 So if someone tells me, "Oh, well, you know, I found that conversation a bit hurtful when you said blah, 425 00:34:50,060 --> 00:34:54,590 blah, blah." Like, I would rather they actually said that to me than—'cause otherwise, I wouldn't know. 426 00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:57,350 As long as you're not being, like, nasty about it. 427 00:34:57,770 --> 00:35:05,390 I think that's really quite insightful—that the fact that we have a disposition or a weakness towards certain sorts of behaviours just because 428 00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:14,690 of the way we are, and that's probably true of all of us to varying extents—it doesn't absolve us from the evil we do in those situations. 429 00:35:14,705 --> 00:35:15,620 Yeah, yeah. 430 00:35:15,950 --> 00:35:22,700 And we should take responsibility for those things, even if it means apologising afterwards and saying, "Look, I've lost control and I have difficulty 431 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:29,915 retaining control, but doesn't excuse me from doing something that was in itself harmful and wrong, and I'm sorry." Do you have any thoughts on that? 432 00:35:30,395 --> 00:35:36,634 My thought is that usually, almost invariably, sin is an interpersonal problem. 433 00:35:37,235 --> 00:35:44,875 And so, whether I can help my sinful actions or not at the time, they still affect you. 434 00:35:45,385 --> 00:35:54,095 And so, a wrong has been done, and you deserve better than the sinful behaviour you've received from me. 435 00:35:54,485 --> 00:36:00,004 And so, whether I felt like I could help it or not, that still doesn't change the 436 00:36:00,004 --> 00:36:04,955 fact that something's been wrong to you and you deserve some kind of restitution. 437 00:36:05,165 --> 00:36:11,194 You too are made in God's image and you shouldn't have to live with my meltdowns. 438 00:36:11,315 --> 00:36:15,665 And if we can take it out of the realm of meltdowns, let's take it into the realm 439 00:36:15,665 --> 00:36:19,265 of other kinds of behaviours that any of us might engage in at different points. 440 00:36:19,924 --> 00:36:28,775 Oh, well, we could think of the opposite: my inability to notice that you need to be in contact with me and 441 00:36:28,775 --> 00:36:37,475 my persistent ignorance of that, whether I have read that social cue or not, has still separated you and I. 442 00:36:37,655 --> 00:36:43,115 The other aspect of it that occurs to me as we discuss this is that taking responsibility for our own actions in 443 00:36:43,115 --> 00:36:47,915 the way we're talking about, even in those circumstances when we found it very difficult to control ourselves, 444 00:36:48,430 --> 00:36:54,040 we can also take responsibility for the circumstances that lead up to those circumstances, as it were. 445 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,109 That is to say, if we know there are certain triggers in our life that in a certain set of predictable 446 00:36:59,109 --> 00:37:04,654 circumstances, I'm probably going end up completely overwhelmed and bad things are going happen, there's also 447 00:37:04,654 --> 00:37:09,185 a degree to which I need to think about those circumstances and take responsibility and try and manage them. 448 00:37:09,615 --> 00:37:15,365 When it happens once, when it happens twice, when it happens three, I should make sure I maybe not try and put myself in that circumstance again— 449 00:37:15,365 --> 00:37:15,455 Yeah. 450 00:37:15,515 --> 00:37:17,195 —where I know I'm going to lose control. 451 00:37:17,195 --> 00:37:22,145 So there's also a sense of responsibility for thinking about those kinds of issues that I know that not 452 00:37:22,145 --> 00:37:26,855 only neurodivergent people really think about and grapple with, in terms of managing and thinking through 453 00:37:26,855 --> 00:37:32,735 how they relate to other people and what's going happen, but especially parents of neurodivergent kids. 454 00:37:33,125 --> 00:37:37,985 This is a real struggle as they seek to manage and help their own kids through these difficult times. 455 00:37:37,985 --> 00:37:42,085 And very often, the child will lose control and will not know why they've lost control. 456 00:37:42,285 --> 00:37:46,745 In fact, Kate Morris, who contributed to our project several times, especially 457 00:37:46,745 --> 00:37:49,925 in this area, had something very interesting to say on this topic, especially. 458 00:37:49,985 --> 00:37:56,660 So a child who comes home from school and has a meltdown, which we understand to be quite different to a tantrum. 459 00:37:56,660 --> 00:38:04,470 It's an explosion of pressure from them holding all of that stress and difficulty in, or externalising 460 00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:10,310 it and facing the consequences of that at school as well, coming home and experiencing a meltdown. 461 00:38:10,370 --> 00:38:14,810 And you can look at that meltdown, and we can understand from research and 462 00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:18,710 from a scientific point of view what is going on in that brain at that moment. 463 00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:22,280 It makes perfect sense that they're experiencing that. 464 00:38:22,610 --> 00:38:29,990 But if in that, they're yelling at the parent something horrible that they shouldn't be saying to the parent, how does a parent respond when 465 00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:39,540 we both understand the science around this, but we also understand what we are called to do and how we're called to behave and interact? 466 00:38:39,540 --> 00:38:41,430 So I think it's a really important question. 467 00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:50,040 I put this question, actually, to a lady who's in ministry who is autistic and ADHD, and her response to me was really helpful. 468 00:38:50,399 --> 00:38:59,235 She said that when she has meltdowns, she needs to understand it from the perspective that she is a sinful person where sin is in everything. 469 00:38:59,595 --> 00:39:04,935 She's also a person who is in a human body with limited capacity, and this 470 00:39:04,935 --> 00:39:09,285 human body is going to experience overwhelm, because of the autism that she has. 471 00:39:09,675 --> 00:39:14,450 And so, she needs to understand that both of these things are actually playing into it. 472 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,339 Neurobiologically, she's going to need to have that explosion and the pressure release, 473 00:39:19,339 --> 00:39:22,670 and that's not the moment to be able to do anything else, because of that shutdown. 474 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:29,120 But afterwards, she says she has a responsibility to be able to apologise for things that she's 475 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,705 done in that and acknowledge that there has been brokenness, sinfulness, hurt from what's happened. 476 00:39:36,125 --> 00:39:43,325 And she said that she's working on her overwhelm by doing occupational therapy and psychology, and working in 477 00:39:43,325 --> 00:39:50,675 her body to work out how to navigate overstimulation so that she doesn't hit this point of having a meltdown. 478 00:39:51,035 --> 00:39:56,435 Now this takes us to the fourth and final big biblical theme I wanted us to think about. 479 00:39:56,435 --> 00:40:02,285 And that is, the Christian life is a spiritual battle, as we've been just talking about, but it's not an isolated one. 480 00:40:02,285 --> 00:40:03,725 It's not fought alone. 481 00:40:03,845 --> 00:40:04,745 We're part of a people. 482 00:40:04,745 --> 00:40:06,755 We're part of a community—part of a body. 483 00:40:07,355 --> 00:40:13,175 And another biblical theme that many neurodivergent people spoke to us about as we talked about this issue, 484 00:40:13,205 --> 00:40:19,580 and especially about being a Christian and neurodivergent, was the theme of the body of Christ—of the 485 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:26,990 interdependent unity and support and giving and loving that happens within the church, within God's body. 486 00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:27,950 Here's Laura. 487 00:40:28,010 --> 00:40:34,910 I just find that great comfort that God created me intentionally and that he cares about every part. 488 00:40:35,540 --> 00:40:42,620 And also, yeah, that in the Bible it talks about in, like, 1 Corinthians 12 about how we're 489 00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:47,290 all one body and we—but we all have different gifts and we all have something to contribute. 490 00:40:47,710 --> 00:40:50,860 So I think difference can be quite a strength in that. 491 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,990 But we're all united in Christ in one body with all our differences. 492 00:40:56,170 --> 00:41:03,955 Laura mentions 1 Corinthians 12 and its famous picture of the body of Christ—of the interdependent parts of the 493 00:41:03,955 --> 00:41:11,125 body, with each part doing its own thing, and how the body needs all its different parts in all their diversity. 494 00:41:11,725 --> 00:41:18,805 David, what do you think is significant about this passage and about the image of all the different parts of the body of Christ united in Christ? 495 00:41:19,435 --> 00:41:27,950 I think this is a really fundamental portrait of what church life should mean for people who love the Bible. 496 00:41:28,610 --> 00:41:39,230 It's common amongst our churches to value the preaching of the gospel and evangelism as being clear signs that God's Spirit is at work. 497 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,810 But that's only two of the kind of gifts that God gives to the church. 498 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:53,810 It's very easy for us to settle into prayer, evangelism, and going on a roster as being the three gifts of the Spirit that we need at our church. 499 00:41:54,290 --> 00:42:01,190 But what we see in 1 Corinthians 12 is that God's Spirit empowers us to have a particular discernment 500 00:42:01,195 --> 00:42:09,109 about one another—that I need this group of people in order to be the Christian that God wants me to 501 00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:16,310 be, and they need me as an individual Christian to be the kind of church that God wants them to be. 502 00:42:16,460 --> 00:42:26,450 And so, there's a couple of great sort of summary statements almost: there's sort of three times that Paul says "no one can say" in that chapter. 503 00:42:26,779 --> 00:42:30,230 Firstly, no one can say that Jesus is Lord without the Spirit. 504 00:42:30,919 --> 00:42:34,850 But then, no one can say, "I don't need you" if they have the Spirit. 505 00:42:34,850 --> 00:42:40,740 And also, no one can say they don't need me, if the Spirit of God is actually at work there. 506 00:42:41,010 --> 00:42:47,760 And I think that's a really important lesson for all Christian churches to take 507 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:55,000 on board—that God has brought to your gathering the people he wants to be there. 508 00:42:55,450 --> 00:43:01,359 And you won't be the kind of church that God wants you to be unless you can make room for all of them. 509 00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:05,710 And similarly, all the individuals that have been bought there have been bought 510 00:43:05,710 --> 00:43:10,330 there so that they can be a blessing to the place where God has brought them. 511 00:43:11,055 --> 00:43:17,975 And in 1 Corinthians 12-14, the word of God's very important—that word that confesses Jesus, the word that you prophesy and so on in chapter 14. 512 00:43:18,334 --> 00:43:23,584 And many of the gifts he speaks of—many of the manifestations of the Spirit's presence in chapter 513 00:43:23,584 --> 00:43:29,334 12—are manifestations of different ways that the word might be brought from one person to another. 514 00:43:29,895 --> 00:43:35,390 It's almost as if God puts his word into all of our hearts and onto all of our lips, 515 00:43:35,390 --> 00:43:39,740 but each in our own way, given our own experience, given our own opportunities. 516 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:47,360 And I sometimes think that with a passage like 1 Corinthians 12, we focus on the gift and on figuring out what everyone's gift is— 517 00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:47,810 Yeah. 518 00:43:48,569 --> 00:43:54,065 —rather and I really like the way you put it: it's that this church needs you and you need this church. 519 00:43:54,485 --> 00:43:59,315 And it's you in all your individuality and particularity, with all your strengths and weaknesses. 520 00:43:59,635 --> 00:44:00,455 You're needed. 521 00:44:00,755 --> 00:44:04,085 You can't say that you're not needed, and no one can say that you're not needed. 522 00:44:04,115 --> 00:44:04,475 Yeah. 523 00:44:04,475 --> 00:44:07,715 I tend to think that really, it's the people that are the gifts. 524 00:44:07,835 --> 00:44:08,255 Yes. 525 00:44:08,370 --> 00:44:13,589 And God sends a number of different things to make a healthy church wrapped up in human bodies. 526 00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:14,100 Exactly. 527 00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:20,670 It's almost like the fundamental substrate of the gifts is this word of God that brings us to life and that we all have. 528 00:44:20,850 --> 00:44:21,450 The word is— 529 00:44:21,529 --> 00:44:21,850 And it's on our— 530 00:44:21,850 --> 00:44:23,430 —the Lordship of Jesus, really. 531 00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:23,670 Yes! 532 00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:23,880 Yeah. 533 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:32,759 That when we come together, confessing Jesus as Lord, as our Lord, as my Lord, that means I'm not Lord and you're not Lord. 534 00:44:33,359 --> 00:44:34,380 And I need you to say that. 535 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:34,799 Yeah. 536 00:44:34,799 --> 00:44:36,255 I need to stand next to you while you say that. 537 00:44:36,765 --> 00:44:36,945 Yeah. 538 00:44:36,945 --> 00:44:41,115 And I need to hear you say it in your way, and to reflect it in your experience 539 00:44:41,115 --> 00:44:44,415 and in your life and in what you say about your life and how you encourage me. 540 00:44:44,415 --> 00:44:51,015 And it's that interdependent kind of intricate network of people being together and contributing to each other. 541 00:44:51,015 --> 00:44:55,485 It's not about doing a gift inventory and figuring out whether I should be playing the guitar or not. 542 00:44:55,569 --> 00:44:56,019 No, in fact— 543 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:56,955 It's much more about— 544 00:44:57,105 --> 00:45:01,895 In fact, really it's—the one thing that I think is really interesting towards the end of that 545 00:45:01,895 --> 00:45:08,435 passage is that Paul, I think he really wants to niggle these Corinthians who are a power church. 546 00:45:08,465 --> 00:45:08,645 Yeah. 547 00:45:08,855 --> 00:45:15,765 'Cause he'll start to talk about parts that need special honour and how we have to deliberately 548 00:45:15,765 --> 00:45:21,705 and intentionally look for ways that we can give special honour to less presentable parts. 549 00:45:22,154 --> 00:45:31,575 And I think that's a great description—well, a great analogy for how our neurodivergent brothers and sisters 550 00:45:31,904 --> 00:45:40,635 can be identified—that insofar as church is about social cues and social relationships, our neurodivergent 551 00:45:40,965 --> 00:45:48,585 brothers and sisters, it's going to be a challenge for them to read the social cues consistently well. 552 00:45:49,005 --> 00:45:55,215 But if you're a gregarious, extroverted person who can talk to anyone, you've been put into 553 00:45:55,215 --> 00:46:02,145 this context to help those who can't read social cues as well, help them be part of the body. 554 00:46:02,484 --> 00:46:07,404 In Part 3 of this series and our third episode, we're going think through some of the practical implications of all of this. 555 00:46:07,855 --> 00:46:12,475 But just to sort of foreshadow some of that, there are going be some really significant implications. 556 00:46:12,475 --> 00:46:18,565 When we combine what Jesus says about ability and merit and how valuable we all are, only 557 00:46:18,565 --> 00:46:22,650 because he loves us and has given us life by his grace, we're not playing the merit game. 558 00:46:22,650 --> 00:46:24,120 We're not playing the status game. 559 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,710 And we are part of an interdependent body, and we all need each other, no matter who we are. 560 00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:30,510 And we all contribute something vital. 561 00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:38,490 It's going say something very important about the nature of church life—about not only what it means to welcome neurodivergent people into our 562 00:46:38,490 --> 00:46:45,615 congregations and to love them in their neurodivergence and welcome and value them for their contribution, their invaluable contribution to the body. 563 00:46:46,575 --> 00:46:52,395 But it will also say something for neurodivergent people themselves: what it means to contribute to the body 564 00:46:52,665 --> 00:46:58,725 and to see themselves as active, valuable, loving contributors in their individuality and in who they are. 565 00:46:58,845 --> 00:46:59,475 Yeah, yeah. 566 00:46:59,475 --> 00:47:06,975 Well, I think they have a great ministry to us to help us to avoid the more subtle forms of the homogenous unit principle. 567 00:47:07,785 --> 00:47:10,305 As if you've got to be a certain kind of person to be part of this church. 568 00:47:10,335 --> 00:47:11,355 Yeah, that's right. 569 00:47:12,045 --> 00:47:12,975 Listen, thanks David. 570 00:47:12,975 --> 00:47:16,790 There's so much more we could explore on each of these four big themes. 571 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:22,160 But hopefully in exploring each of them, we've now laid some good theological foundations. 572 00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:28,400 And on the basis of those, dear listeners, we'll come back to in our next episode to consider more 573 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:35,090 practically and kind of in conclusion with some fresh eyes now, having looked at the Bible and its theology. 574 00:47:35,630 --> 00:47:41,090 What does God's vision for his world and for us as people mean for neurodivergence and the Christian life? 575 00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:48,490 And that's what we'll do in our third and final episode: we'll consider how the theological convictions we've talked through 576 00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:55,540 transform our thinking so that we don't think about this question like the world does, but we think about it with a transformed mind. 577 00:47:56,020 --> 00:48:01,240 And we'll also consider practically what that means for living as a neurodivergent Christian, for raising 578 00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:06,700 neurodivergent kids, and the topic we were just talking about at the conclusion: what does it mean to be a church 579 00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:12,819 community in which neurodivergent people are welcomed and in which they thrive and contribute for who they are. 580 00:48:13,595 --> 00:48:16,685 But that will all be for the next time and I'll hope you join us then. 581 00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:18,545 Thanks again, David, for your contributions today. 582 00:48:18,665 --> 00:48:19,055 Thank you. 583 00:48:19,654 --> 00:48:20,359 Talk to you next time. 584 00:48:40,205 --> 00:48:47,705 Digital technology like smartphones has revolutionised the way we navigate daily life and the way our whole society functions. 585 00:48:48,125 --> 00:48:55,295 We have supercomputers in our hands that can answer almost any question instantly and perform many tasks that make life easier. 586 00:48:56,330 --> 00:49:03,140 Such technology has its downsides, like the explosion of accessibility to pornography and the prevalence of online bullying. 587 00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:08,540 Even so, our stance as Christians is often something like, "Let's use this technology 588 00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:12,950 wisely, but not abuse it", as if the technology is simply a neutral instrument. 589 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,660 But the good things of our world, like technology or money, can become much 590 00:49:17,660 --> 00:49:22,220 more than this: they can become master-teachers that dominate and disciple us. 591 00:49:23,405 --> 00:49:27,395 In the next Centre for Christian Living biblical ethics workshop, we want to do 592 00:49:27,395 --> 00:49:31,955 more than share helpful tips on godly smartphone use, although such tips are useful. 593 00:49:32,495 --> 00:49:37,355 We want to zoom out and consider how technology disciples us, how it profoundly reorders our 594 00:49:37,355 --> 00:49:43,175 attitudes, operating beliefs and behaviours—not just personally, but on a society-wide level. 595 00:49:43,895 --> 00:49:51,275 Put your phones on silent and join the conversation on Monday 27th of October, 2025 at 7:30 PM. 596 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:59,160 You can register and find out more on the Centre for Christian Living website: ccl.moore.edu.au. 597 00:50:01,259 --> 00:50:18,549 That's ccl.moore.edu.au. 598 00:50:20,105 --> 00:50:25,040 Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. 599 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,110 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website: that's 600 00:50:30,110 --> 00:50:39,170 ccl.moore.edu.au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the 601 00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:45,689 way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre. 602 00:50:45,950 --> 00:50:49,700 And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make an 603 00:50:49,700 --> 00:50:54,500 tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 604 00:50:55,100 --> 00:51:02,779 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. 605 00:51:03,410 --> 00:51:07,910 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 606 00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:08,960 Please get in touch. 607 00:51:09,259 --> 00:51:14,680 You can email us at ccl@ccl.moore.edu.au. 608 00:51:14,839 --> 00:51:20,689 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and 609 00:51:20,689 --> 00:51:28,100 editing and producing this podcast, to James West for the music, and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. 610 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:28,970 Thank you for listening. 611 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:30,319 I'm Tony Payne. 612 00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:31,279 'Bye for now.