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Hello, I'm Tony Payne and welcome to the Centre for Christian Living Podcast.

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Great to have you with us again, and especially today great to have you with us, because today is a rather special episode.

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It's the first episode in a three-part series of podcasts.

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Now, this is something we've been wanting to do for some time—that is, not just to

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interview interesting and knowledgeable people about aspects of the Christian life.

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That's what most of our podcast episodes are, and I know that you enjoy them.

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But we've been thinking for a while that it will be worth pausing and digging in more detail into a particular subject or

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issue, considering what the Bible has to say about it, and reflecting on what that means for our Christian life and experience.

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In other words, to do in a little more depth what our task is here—our mission is here at

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the Centre for Christian Living—and that is to bring biblical ethics to everyday issues.

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And the issue that we've decided to dig more deeply into, and the next few podcast episodes will explore, is "Neurodivergence and the Christian life".

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This is Part 1 of a three-part series from the Centre for Christian Living on "Neurodivergence and the Christian life".

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And you may be wondering why we decided to focus on neurodivergence as a topic—as

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the first topic to explore in more detail like this in a series of podcasts.

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Like many good ideas, it kind of happened by accident.

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The subject had been put forward and suggested by people in the feedback we receive at our regular CCL events

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occasionally, and my assistant here at CCL, Karen Beilharz, had also suggested it was perhaps a worthwhile topic.

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But as we began to research it, and especially to talk with neurodivergent people and to begin to prepare for

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an event—a workshop—on this topic, it became obvious just how important a topic it was for many, many people.

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I think that I haven't heard many conversations about being a Christian and being autistic, and how that

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interacts and how that coexists, and what it, yeah, what it's like to live as an autistic Christian.

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I think that's tricky and something that should be spoken about more and that would be helpful to talk about and think about.

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And something else that's difficult is that that a lot of people don't understand

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what it's like, and I have to explain myself and advocate for myself constantly.

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And there are people who genuinely want to know more, but they don't know—they don't

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know yet, and there is also an element to which they won't fully understand it.

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And it can be really hard to put into words a lot of the things that I go through.

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That was the voice of Laura, a young woman with autism who's also been diagnosed with the combined form of ADHD.

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And she's one of many people we have spoken to over the past several months, and who expressed very similar sentiments—that neurodivergence,

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in all its different forms, affects many, many people and is a reality of life for many people—for themselves in their own lives and in

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the lives of their families, and is a subject that is misunderstood and just not talked about by people generally, let alone by Christians.

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That interview with Laura was conducted by one of our student team members here at the Centre for Christian Living.

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At Moore College, all the students are divided up into different service teams who do different things around the College.

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And there's one team that works with the Centre for Christian Living—around a dozen students.

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And one of the tasks I set for our team in this last several months was to go out and speak with people—speak

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with people in their churches, in their families, in their communities—to talk about the experience of

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neurodivergence and what it means for the Christian life, for Christian faith, and for life in Christian churches.

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And you'll be hearing quite a number of clips from those interviews over the course of these episodes.

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Laura's take on why it's important that we discuss neurodivergence and bring it to the surface and think about what it means for

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Christian living and for church life was reflected also in the attendance at our Centre for Christian Living event on this topic.

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We put on a biblical workshop on "Neurodivergence and the Christian Life" in May,

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and we were really quite stunned at how many people registered for that event.

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It very quickly filled up, and in fact, the waiting list was so long of people wanting to come to the event,

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that we decided to run a repeat event a month later in June, and that also filled up almost immediately.

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Obviously this is a question that people care deeply about, as Laura reflected and as many of the people we spoke to also expressed.

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But before we get to hearing more of those voices and hearing about the experience and the issues connected with neurodivergence,

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it's worth framing how we're going to approach the whole question and how we're going to approach these three episodes.

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The model that we're going to follow or the set of steps we're going to work through is really how we do ethics here at Moore College, in a sense.

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It's the framework and process of moral thinking that we go through all the time, that we teach

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in our moral theology classes, and that we often come back to at the Centre for Christian Living.

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And it advances in five stages: as you come to any situation or circumstance, and you want to think biblically

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and morally about what I should do in this circumstance, there are five stages you go through of thinking.

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The first is to kind of assess and think about and understand the situation—to interrogate it, to be curious

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about what's going on, to observe, to understand what this particular issue or situational circumstance really is.

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But that first assessment—that first take on what's going on—is a kind of provisional

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one, because we want to think also what the Bible says about these kinds of situations.

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And so, the second stage is to reflect biblically and theologically about the question—to see how the Bible writers themselves think about

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these kinds of issues and what biblical truths and theological ideas they bring to bear to understand this kind of situation or circumstance.

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So there's an assessment kind of analyse/apprehend kind of stage.

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There's a reflection stage.

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And then there's a deliberation stage, where you come back to the circumstance with a fresh set of biblical

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eyes and start to rethink and consider what needs to be done or could be done in this circumstance—what

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ends or intentions are appropriate, what we really want to achieve or see happen in this particular context.

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So there's a deliberative step where we rethink and understand and consider the options within the circumstance and situation we're in.

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And then there's a fourth stage of thinking, where we actually resolve on what we are going to do—where we start to choose some

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practical steps that are going to lead towards the end that we think is the best end or the good end that we want to pursue.

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There's a choosing and resolving and deciding phase, where we settle on what actually is to be done.

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And then finally, of course, I guess you can say there's an actual doing phase.

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There's an acting phase, where we put into practice and actually perform the things that we've decided to do.

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Now, those five phases, it's a little difficult to put together an acronym to kind of capture them all.

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I've tried several over the last few months, and the one that I'm going to run with here in these episodes is A-R-D-R-A.

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ARDRA.

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A-R-D-R-A: that we assess, we reflect, we deliberate, we resolve and then we act.

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A-R-D-R-A.

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ARDRA.

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And in this first episode of this series, we're going to focus on that first phase of the process: assessing,

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apprehending, being curious, understanding neurodivergence and the experience and questions and issues

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of neurodivergent people, and the parents and friends and ministers of neurodivergent people as well.

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So let's start with our first phase: to assess, to understand and apprehend.

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To listen.

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Well, the first stage of our thinking is to assess, to understand.

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And the first thing to understand is what we mean by the term "neurodivergence" or neurodiversity, as it's sometimes called.

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It's a term that was first coined, so it is thought by Judy Singer, an Australian researcher, writing

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in the 1990s, who was focused on autism, and in particular, on the way that autistic people were often

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alienated or mistreated, and that the medical lens for understanding autism was not sufficient in itself.

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What if we thought of autism as simply difference—a divergence from the majority—and not fundamentally a disability or a disorder?

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What if we thought about autism, in other words, as being like any other minority group, whether that's a

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racial minority or some other identity-based minority, and rethought the nature of autism through that lens?

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Now, Singer's frame for thinking about all of this was quite explicitly a political one.

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She wanted to see activism and change on a political and social level.

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And that emphasis and activism has certainly continued in different ways in our culture.

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But as language always does, the term "neurodivergence" or neurodiversity has shifted and changed over the past couple of decades.

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It's grown to include not just autism, but conditions like ADHD in its different forms, and dyslexia, and dysgraphia, and other similar conditions.

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It's also broadened from being a political term of activism and identity to becoming a more general way of talking about

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autism and related conditions in a less charged way—in a way that emphasises that people with autism and ADHD are not

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just people with deficits or disorders, but are people with different brains—brains that are wired differently, that

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work differently, that have different strengths, as well as different weaknesses, than the typical or majority brain.

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Now, the language of neurodivergence and neurodiversity has been evolving and continues to evolve quite rapidly.

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And that's something that I will ask your grace and kindness about upfront.

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Over the course of these next few episodes, we'll interview a range of different people who use different

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sorts of language to describe themselves and their experience, or the experience of their families.

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And perhaps we just can be kind to one another and cut each other a little bit of slack in this regard, because

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the language does keep changing and different people prefer different kinds of ways of talking about these issues.

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Some people, for example, prefer a more person-oriented language: they prefer to say, "I have

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autism", or "I'm a person with autism" that emphasises their personhood, rather than the condition.

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Other people prefer a more identity-oriented way of speaking—that is, "I'm autistic"—because it describes a fairly fundamental aspect of who I am.

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In fact, even the language of autism has shifted and changed in recent years.

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There was a time not so long ago when the preferred way of speaking about autism was "Autism Spectrum Disorder, Levels 1-3".

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That was and still remains the medical way of speaking about autism.

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But some autistic people don't like the idea of including the word "disorder" in a description of them

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as the fundamental thing about them, and so don't like the language of "Autism Spectrum Disorder".

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And of course, there are older terms, such as "Asperger's Syndrome", which has now been included within that Autism Spectrum Disorder designation.

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And so the language here, as it is in nearly every aspect of our lives, is fluid and keeps changing.

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In this series, we'll use the fairly common term "neurodivergence" as the way to talk about the circumstance and situation we're discussing.

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It's a broad term.

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It includes a range of different people, and that's one of its strengths.

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But that can also be one of its weaknesses.

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As we discovered, the more that we researched this subject and the more we

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talked with neurodivergent people, their experience can be vastly different.

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There's quite an obvious and very significant difference between, say, a university professor with ADHD

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who has learned to manage and work around their weaknesses and make the best of their strengths, and a

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teenage boy, perhaps, with ASD Level 3, who cannot speak and needs almost constant supervision and support.

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It's easy to jump to conclusions and to make sweeping general statements about

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what neurodivergent people do or what the neurodivergent brain is like, and so on.

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In fact, I asked Kate Morris about this.

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Kate was one of the people we spoke with quite a lot in the lead-up to this podcast and to the event that we had in May.

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Kate has done a lot of research into neurodivergence.

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She has some neurodiverse kids herself and writes a Substack called "An Extraordinary Normal" about this whole subject.

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And I asked Kate whether the term "neurodivergence" was almost too broad to be useful.

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I wonder if the problem is with the term or with people.

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Because I think as people, what we want is to quickly box people in—to be able to have a stereotype that means we can understand them.

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We know how to fix them.

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We know how to approach them.

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We know what to do.

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But actually, that's not love, is it?

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Yes, I think the term can be too broad.

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But I think it can be perhaps a helpful step in the right direction if we use it well.

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And so, if someone says they're neurodivergent, that's not the end of the story.

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That's the beginning of a conversation, and I think that's really helpful to understand.

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This is why the whole community needs to be working on growing and understanding, because as

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we do, we can grow in understanding of questions we might ask or things to be curious about.

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We hopefully will grow to be better at listening as well, as people share their experiences.

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And we need to believe that people might experience things that we don't see, because someone might not

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experience challenges in some environments and experience enormous challenges in other environments.

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They might not need support in some cases and need enormous support in other cases.

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They might be someone who copes with certain situations if things are just right, and then in other situations, it's very complicated for them.

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And so, this is why we need to have these conversations and ask people where they sit, what they're like, and have them ask us as well.

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We need to be a community working together—all of us working to understand each other better.

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Kate emphasises something really important here, I think: the need in every situation—but especially in

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this one—to listen, to be curious, not to assume that we know what's going on for people, but to ask them.

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And this is what we did in preparation for our event in May and for this podcast: we went out and spoke to a whole range of

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different people—neurodivergent people, parents and friends of neurodivergent people—and simply asked them to tell us about

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their experience, and particularly, how that experience intersected with the Christian faith and with their life in church.

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And we found in almost every case, just how much the person appreciated being asked and being able to speak for themselves.

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And in this first episode of our series, we're going to spend a fair bit of time listening to those voices—listening

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to the experience and the questions of neurodivergent people and the parents of neurodivergent kids.

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And we're going to listen to those experiences under five loose headings or foci.

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We are going to, first of all, hear from some neurodivergent people talking about just what their experience of life is like.

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Then we're going to switch the focus more to parents—parents of neurodivergent

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kids and what their experience of life is like and what their questions are.

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Then we're going to focus especially on church life and on Christian faith, and on the

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questions that neurodivergence raises for those questions and those issues in particular.

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Fourthly, we're going to spend a little bit of time hearing from some people in Christian

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ministry who minister the gospel full-time and about the effect of neurodivergence on that sphere.

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And then finally, we are going to zoom out a little bit from individual voices and think

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more broadly about neurodivergence from a medical and also from a social viewpoint.

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And hopefully by looking at those five lenses or foci on this question, we'll

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start to assess and understand and get a sense of what the issues really are.

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But first, let's start with what it's like to be neurodivergent, to have autism, to have ADHD.

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We asked people to tell us what they'd like other people to know about their experience.

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Here's Alex, for example.

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Alex is a young woman with Asperger's Syndrome or what is now called ASD: Autism Spectrum Disorder Level 1.

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She also has OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and ADHD, and she suffers with anxiety.

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This complex of different issues is quite common for people who are neurodivergent, and she speaks about what it's

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like to read what people say about autism or about ADHD, and then feel like it sort of describes her life, but not.

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I wouldn't say completely wrong.

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But it's very much from the perspective of someone who's not autistic looking at someone who is autistic.

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So it's like reading an uncanny list of traits that I have.

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And I'm like, "Oh, that is definitely me somehow, but from the perspective of viewing those things in, like, the most negative way possible." Like,

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people would say things like, "Autistic people lack empathy", and, like, that really, really hurt, because I'm, like, oh, I feel things so deeply.

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Yeah.

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So just knowing that the way that it's written about, yeah, the experience from the inside is quite different.

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I have such a strong desire to connect with people.

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But I just have this barrier where I'm not completely oblivious—like, I know so many social rules analytically or theoretically.

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But I'm in situations all the time when my brain is so overloaded that I can't actually process it in the moment.

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Yeah, you can look really oblivious, but be very, very aware of how different you are—how much you're not fitting in.

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Like, you can feel that on a really deep level.

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Quite a number of people said very similar things to us, as Alex just did, about how neurotypical people just

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often don't realise what's going on for neurodivergent people in the moment—in the circumstances that they're in.

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Like Hannah, for example.

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So I went my whole childhood thinking that I was just that one weird person that no one could ever get along with.

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Like, it's very normal for people to have their occasional, like, social slip-up,

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or to not be interested in the same things that other kids their age are into.

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But for me, it was at the degree of it felt like I had to be an actor every single day, and I

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could never break character, or it meant that people would get in trouble or something like that.

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As I got older, I learned about neurodivergence, and for me, it meant being able to put a name to my experiences.

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Neurodivergent people often mentioned this experience to us—especially those with autism, but others as well—of trying to conform to the

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expectations of everyday conversation and the kind of relational interaction that neurotypical people find easy, and how exhausting this is.

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Neurodivergent people often refer to this as "masking"—as doing their best to

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consciously act the part—and how tiring and difficult this can be over time.

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Peter is an older man who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome back when, that's what it was called, and he put it like this.

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I had forgotten to mask to do that.

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So I have to keep reminding myself, "I've got to mask.

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I've got to mask." So when somebody says something, I have to think, "Now, how will I reply to this so they won't

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be offended?" Whereas, if I'm doing it with someone else who's got Asperger's or autism, they won't be offended.

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In fact, they'll be happy, because I've told them exactly what has to happen.

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So that's probably my biggest problem: is that I have to mask.

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And that causes anxiety and stress.

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It's emotionally exhausting.

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I get sensory overload and sometimes meltdowns.

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It's an unfortunate part of autism—especially Asperger's—that you get meltdowns, and that's where you lose complete emotional control.

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It's certainly true that the neurodivergent people we spoke to really wanted neurotypical people to understand that life can be very hard

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for them, and that there are things that they find difficult and that they struggle to do that the majority of us don't find difficult.

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But it's not all negative.

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In fact, one of the striking features of not only recent thinking and research about neurodivergence, but our

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conversations with a whole range of people is the recognition that people whose brains are wired just a bit

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differently—that are divergent from most brains—not only have some difficulties as a result, but also some real strengths.

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Here's Peter and Hannah again on this subject.

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What we want to do is have other Christians to recognise that we are made slightly different, even though they can't physically see it.

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That mentally inside us, we are different.

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Our brains are wired differently.

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And even though we have weaknesses in how we communicate and how we act towards people, we also have enormous strengths.

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We can do their maths homework with them, no trouble.

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We can solve all their electronics and electrical problems just like that.

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And so, try and embrace us not only for our weaknesses, but also for our strengths.

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And I think that's something that Christians should do.

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And as somebody with Asperger and as a Christian, it's something I ask other Christians to do, and it's something that I do on a regular basis.

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I think the fact that this interview is happening to begin with already demonstrates to me that we as a

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body of Christ are taking huge steps in allowing people such as myself to be a part of the church community.

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I mean, it would be really easy for people to say, "Oh, neurodivergent people don't exist.

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They're just exaggerating. They're just drama people." Or to just treat them with indifference.

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But the fact that we're doing this is certainly showing me that we are acknowledging that

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and we are saying we can do better, and we are taking proactive steps in correcting that.

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This, of course, raises a really interesting biblical and theological question: how should we think about neurodivergent brains?

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Historically, this has largely been done through the lens of the Fall—through all

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that's dysfunctional and disordered about our human life, and this being one example.

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But is that the best or only way to think about neurodivergence?

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Or is neurodivergence just part of our created difference, like eye colour or hair colour, or left-handedness?

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Or is it more complex than that again?

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We'll have to come back to that question, and we'll do that in Part 2 of this series.

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But we're still in the assessing and understanding and apprehending phase of our investigation,

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and we're going to move on now to a second focus: to what neurodivergence means for parenting.

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Calum was one of the number of parents we spoke to who were trying to figure out what it means to parent and raise neurodivergent kids.

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So our whole family life has been reshaped around the neurodivergence of our boys—both

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in great ways and in ways that my wife and I find really, really challenging.

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We can start in the home.

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Our home is—we've given it up to three young active boys.

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We've installed swings from the ceiling.

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We've installed crash pads around the house.

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We've got an indoor gym, an outdoor gym, an indoor trampoline, an outdoor trampoline.

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It's really built into all our lives.

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With my boys, I basically had to relearn how to interact with children.

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So many of the things I knew as a teacher just were not the right way to interact or discipline my children.

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And so, it's been a complete rewiring of my expectations as a parent and what I thought would be the case.

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I think as well as some of the things that are challenges, there are some things that are absolute joys.

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My eldest son's intelligence is just off the charts.

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I consider myself to be quite an intelligent person—did quite well at school.

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But when he was eight, he was already surpassing me in some areas, and I just can't wait to see how God's going to use him and  his incredible brain.

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And even my middle child, who's just starting school a year in, just the kindness and rawness that he shows is just so great.

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I want to make sure that as I think about their neurodivergence, I just don't think about the challenges

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it brings to me, but look at the joys that it brings and that they bring into the world as God's made them.

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That sense that Calum conveys so well of being incredibly stretched and challenged and exhausted, while at the same

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time, delighted and blessed by his neurodivergent children, this was a repeated theme of the parents we spoke to.

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One parent at one of our workshop events said that her adult daughter, who's autistic and has ADHD, once told

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her that as she was growing up, it felt like every other person had a playbook or a rule book of how you were

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meant to interact with the world and with each other, but that she didn't have it and nobody had shown it to her.

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And this was not only hard for her daughter, but hard for her as a parent.

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And it made going to church hard as well, which is a subject we'll come to in just a few moments.

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But here's Kate Morris again talking about what it's like to have a child going through what's called a meltdown.

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It is complicated, because with children who are neurodivergent, a lot of them will experience complications and triggers and

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difficulties—particularly outside the home, but also in the home—that will mean that they have a pressure build-up that can be quite complicated.

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So I think one of the most challenging aspects of parenting a neurodivergent child is if they experience meltdowns or shutdowns.

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Particularly meltdowns can be complex.

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So meltdowns, unfortunately, we use that term interchangeably with tantrums, and it's not a tantrum.

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A tantrum is where a child wants a cookie and you can end the tantrum by giving them a cookie.

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They want something.

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If they don't get it, then they will kick and scream.

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A meltdown is quite different, actually.

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We understand now that a meltdown is a brain explosion.

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It's closer to a dam break.

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It's closer to a nuclear meltdown or something like that.

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It's something where the pressure has built to the point that they can no longer hold it in.

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So a lot of parents will notice these meltdowns happen in the car as they're

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heading home from something where the child has held it in, or when they get home.

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And it's really hard, because this is the moment where a family would love to just relax together.

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But for some people, relaxing means releasing a lot of tension and build-up.

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And it's complicated, because for some of these children, they will say things or

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do things or act in ways that we don't want our children to be doing or saying.

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They can be harmful to others.

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They can end up impacting the home.

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They can destroy things or damage things, or say things that hurt people's feelings.

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And so, naturally as parents, this isn't how we want our children to behave.

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And yet the complication comes when you understand what's going on in the brain—that it has had this buildup of pressure over the day.

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I've heard from neurodivergent people that in those moments, they simply can't stop.

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And research has shown this too.

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They simply can't just stop.

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Once the meltdown has begun, it's too late.

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And so, as a parent understanding that, once the meltdown has started, it's also too late for us to simply say, "Stop!"

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We'll hear more from Kate as our series goes on about how to think about and deal with those kinds of parenting challenges.

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But one thing that nearly every parent we spoke to said, and many neurodivergent people said as well, was that church

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was hard with neurodivergence—hard for neurodivergent people in various ways, hard for parents and for their kids.

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It's something we should move on and talk about—about church experience and the Christian life and neurodivergence.

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Here's Calum again.

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I think being the parent of neurodivergent children, there are a lot of things that are inaccessible to us as a family.

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I mentioned earlier church is inaccessible for us.

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We've made steps to try and create a sensory sensitive kids club-type thing at our church, which the church has been really open to and receptive to.

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But unfortunately, it's just not something that my wife and I have had a headspace to actively do.

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And it's something that's really hard for churches to resource, because churches don't often have resources to have spare people around.

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And we've been involved in a soccer program called Football for All, which we started

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attending with our boys middle of last year, and we're really thankful for that program.

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But on reflection, it's the most welcomed I've felt as the parent of neurodivergent children,

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which made me a bit sad, because I feel like that should be church, but it's just not.

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That's a hard testimony to hear.

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But this is the reality for many neurodivergent people and children and parents.

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Church, at one level, is wonderful and an enormous support and encouragement.

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But at another level, it can be really hard.

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Just because it is a large gathering sometimes with lots of people and lots of

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noise, just in sensory terms, it's often a real battle for neurodivergent people.

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Church can be just overwhelming.

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Here's Amanda talking about what church and faith is like for her son.

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Well, just like for the neurodivergent person, being a parent of one is exhausting.

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You have to be five minutes ahead of them, two days ahead of them, a week ahead of them.

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Trying to find all those little points where you would need to put out a spot fire and try and get there before the fire even starts.

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And that's sort of both everywhere.

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That's not just in church.

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In church, and I'm hadn't mentioned before, the biggest thing for us is my son very much understands the message of God and he will focus on that.

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But it's the after church.

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It's the mad, crazy games that have no rules that are happening in the garden while people are having a cup of tea and things like that.

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He wouldn't cope in youth.

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We did try youth group, but it just wasn't for him, because again, it's noisy and

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crazy and the rules are not there, and it's not black and white and it's grey.

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So I can only speak for my son, but he gets the knowledge.

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And when you talk to him about his faith—he's only 12, but he's actually got quite a strong faith, and he knows how to apply it.

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But it's all the other things.

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And he sees the other kids understanding this game, which, to him, looks like has no rules.

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It's just people running around.

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And that makes it hard, then, for him to make the connections.

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There's no doubt the church can be a really challenging sensory and relational space for neurodivergent

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people, and we need to come back in the later stages of our thought process and consider what we might do

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about this and how churches can be more sensitive and welcoming to neurodivergent parents and kids and people.

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But there are other questions and issues related to neurodivergence and the Christian faith.

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At one of our workshops, one of the parents, whose name was Kurtis, raised some

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of these questions in relation to his kids and raising his kids in the faith.

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Yeah, some of the questions I've been thinking about for my kids is, one of them is just how to help them understand themselves.

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So it came up before: how much of their experience with autism is—should I help them understand is the image of

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God expressed differently versus grieve the brokenness of the world in every hu—you know, that kind of thing?

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And then some of that helping them understand godliness when it's hard.

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There's a comment before, like, what I want to do and what my brain allows me to do.

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How does someone with self-control and ADHD.

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Yeah.

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How do those two things fit together?

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Mm-hmm.

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For my kid, like, that's—

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Not very well usually.

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Um, yeah, yeah.

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And then trying to think how to—I think of my son with autism who perceives the world super differently.

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How do I, as someone who doesn't get it and doesn't see the world in his eyes—how do I teach him the gospel and

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the Bible in a way that will connect and engage him, and not just be all my assumptions about what's meaningful?

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These are really thoughtful questions that Kurtis is raising about his kids.

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But they're also the questions that many neurodivergent adults have about their own experience—as people and especially as Christian believers.

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We spoke to a number of people in their forties and fifties who were only just now being diagnosed

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as neurodivergent—most often with ADHD—and for many of them, it was a strange experience.

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Many of them spoke of being enormously relieved at finally understanding themselves and being aware of why they act the way they do.

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But they also spoke of grief at not knowing this sooner.

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Richard speaks about this, and in particular about looking back on his younger Christian experience.

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I was in my mid-fifties when I realised I have ADHD.

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When I was at school and university, assignments and essays were always late.

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My tax returns were always late.

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I was always late.

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I lose things with remarkable ease.

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I just put things down and can't find them again a few moments later.

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I forget commitments I have made.

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I forget the things that build friendships.

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My desk is always untidy.

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My house is always untidy.

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I attract clutter, and it's embarrassing, and I hate letting people inside my house.

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I'm bad at time management: I can't estimate how long a task will take to complete, and I get distracted, which makes things take even longer.

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I can be indecisive yet impulsive.

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I can focus like a laser on one task and be crippled by distractions on the next.

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The quiet time is held as a high value in evangelical circles—the structured morning habit of Bible reading and prayer.

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I have tried.

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So often I've tried.

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I start again with commitment, and just a week later, I realise I haven't lasted three days.

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Building and sustaining habits is hard.

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If I expect to fail again, I just don't want to try again.

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In the Christian life, the disciplines like quiet times, the reading of books, the being outgoing and

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welcoming and doing evangelism can feel like works of salvation or maybe like works of social acceptance.

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In my early twenties, I desperately wanted to be the kind of Christian that I felt was most respected.

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But I couldn't do it.

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And that failure is just one of many I've carried with me.

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Now I understand ADHD better, I understand myself better, and that allows me to forgive myself for times when I have just done what ADHD does.

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This is a really significant question to think about theologically: that is, how should

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neurodivergent people or parents of neurodivergent kids think about the Christian life?

394
00:35:34,725 --> 00:35:40,155
How do their weaknesses and their strengths relate to faith in Christ and to growth in Christian living?

395
00:35:40,785 --> 00:35:45,855
We'll come back to those issues in the Bible and in practice over the next couple of episodes.

396
00:35:46,425 --> 00:35:51,285
But there's one other aspect of neurodivergence and its intersection with Christianity that's worth

397
00:35:51,285 --> 00:35:57,325
exploring and that is what it's like to be involved in Christian ministry and to be neurodivergent.

398
00:35:57,765 --> 00:36:01,185
We spoke to a couple of people about this who are involved in different kinds

399
00:36:01,185 --> 00:36:05,805
of Christian ministry and have recently become aware of their neurodivergence.

400
00:36:06,134 --> 00:36:10,695
Here's David talking about coming to terms with his own experience in light of

401
00:36:10,695 --> 00:36:15,615
his son's diagnosis and thinking about what it means for him as a gospel minister.

402
00:36:16,169 --> 00:36:26,129
So I really started thinking hard about it when our son was diagnosed, and that was immediately before COVID, like, maybe the year or so before COVID.

403
00:36:26,549 --> 00:36:31,439
And we got the big report you get back from a psychologist who's done the testing.

404
00:36:31,879 --> 00:36:38,310
And as I read, I remember distinctly just sitting in bed, reading this report, just going, "Huh.

405
00:36:38,910 --> 00:36:43,319
Huh." And just turning to my wife and just going, "This is me.

406
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:51,855
This is me growing up." And then actually realising that I don't—actually, then having those questions like, "Oh, am I autistic?" And kind of just

407
00:36:51,855 --> 00:36:57,495
going, "Well, that kind of makes sense, wouldn't it?" Because you're on this journey of discovery where your child is going through these things.

408
00:36:57,734 --> 00:36:58,845
And so then reflecting back.

409
00:36:58,845 --> 00:37:01,365
And so, as you got tested, there's a 12-point scale.

410
00:37:01,365 --> 00:37:04,035
There's—apparently, there's different scales they use, but one of them is a 12-point scale.

411
00:37:04,035 --> 00:37:07,665
If you score seven or above, you're officially on the spectrum.

412
00:37:07,954 --> 00:37:08,804
And I scored a six.

413
00:37:09,244 --> 00:37:09,954
Which is really interesting.

414
00:37:09,954 --> 00:37:11,880
So kind of a failure, but in a weird way.

415
00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:17,850
What was really interesting was saying to the psychologist then, "So when I was my son's age ...", and the psychologist went,

416
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:23,880
"Oh yeah, totally." And I said, "So what gives now?" And she just went, "Well, clearly you've learned to deal with some of it."

417
00:37:24,299 --> 00:37:30,810
So when you asked the question, "How does it affect my life?", there's almost the before my diagnosis/not diagnosis,

418
00:37:31,140 --> 00:37:38,400
and now that I really kind of am aware, what I now look back and reflect upon previously, when I think if they had

419
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,550
certain scales I probably would have been diagnosed, is that I just classically was never able to properly reach people.

420
00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:53,865
And I found myself just now looking back, behaving in ways in social settings that not everybody clearly was.

421
00:37:54,285 --> 00:37:59,355
I can remember being quite young and being 12 or 13 years old, or maybe even a bit younger, and

422
00:37:59,355 --> 00:38:03,765
just actually saying to my parents, "I don't have any friends. I just don't have any friends."

423
00:38:04,245 --> 00:38:10,785
Which, can I just say, is it just a real delight that my children do, including the one who is diagnosed as autistic.

424
00:38:11,175 --> 00:38:15,075
Oh, almost a relief as a parent actually—that your kids are making friends and so on.

425
00:38:15,345 --> 00:38:18,495
Although I'm sure he's navigating friendships in a different way to the other two.

426
00:38:18,705 --> 00:38:24,315
What it does for me now, which is really, really helpful is, it actually helps me as I think through my job

427
00:38:24,315 --> 00:38:30,030
as a pastor, which, of all people, is kind of a bit, you go, "What's someone like me doing, trying to look

428
00:38:30,030 --> 00:38:36,840
after people when one of the very natures of this thing is that sometimes you're not very good with people?"

429
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,020
Well, I think one of the great things is you can actually learn to be good with people in different ways.

430
00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:46,170
So what I find myself is doing different ways to get to the same result in terms of the way that I understand people and what I do with them.

431
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:52,080
I think I've become much more acutely aware of when I'm behaving in ways that aren't—this is the great thing about any diagnosis, isn't it?

432
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:52,890
You can see what's going on.

433
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:59,069
I behave in ways that are not helpful, and I'm far quicker now, I think, just to stop and pause myself.

434
00:38:59,129 --> 00:39:05,669
The other thing I've done is I've given my team permission to say to me, "Hey David, you're doing that thing again."

435
00:39:06,029 --> 00:39:10,379
And that's actually a profoundly helpful thing when you have people that you trust and you have a common goal.

436
00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:15,580
And they long for us to succeed together, and they long for you to succeed.

437
00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:23,600
And actually acknowledging the truth of this particular peculiarity that you have, but giving them permission to speak into that.

438
00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:29,205
And speaking to it sometimes in the challenge way, which says, "Actually, David, come on. That's not there." So that's really helpful.

439
00:39:29,505 --> 00:39:35,835
I think the flip side is that with the way that my brain is wired, I mean the curious thing, isn't it, about the autism

440
00:39:35,835 --> 00:39:42,365
thing—and again, I recognise I'm not officially, but there it is—is that a lot of it is about oversensitivity to things,

441
00:39:42,695 --> 00:39:48,395
which actually means that you have these kind of super highways in your brain, which makes you very, very able in other ways.

442
00:39:48,725 --> 00:39:55,265
And I think the flip side of the coin is I'm actually very able to see things and make connections and think

443
00:39:55,265 --> 00:39:59,945
things through in a way that I think is very helpful for the ministry and helpful for the team that I'm in.

444
00:40:00,245 --> 00:40:07,265
It's a particularly unique perspective and gifts that this brings to the team, and we get to use it together in a certain way.

445
00:40:07,460 --> 00:40:09,650
Here's another perspective from Joel.

446
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:17,780
Joel was recently working in full-time parish ministry—mainly in the youth and kids area—and has now transitioned into a different kind of ministry.

447
00:40:18,110 --> 00:40:20,840
I'm ADHD, possibly autistic.

448
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,380
I'm still working with my psychiatrist to get that diagnosis.

449
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:34,190
I'm also the father of three neurodiverse kids—two who are autistic and ADHD, and one who is untested yet, but we are very sure he is ADHD.

450
00:40:34,555 --> 00:40:37,845
How long have you yourself known that you were ADHD?

451
00:40:38,245 --> 00:40:39,805
About two or three years.

452
00:40:39,984 --> 00:40:40,435
Right.

453
00:40:40,645 --> 00:40:41,935
What was it like finding that out?

454
00:40:41,935 --> 00:40:42,805
What was that experience like?

455
00:40:43,194 --> 00:40:47,395
It made sense of 40 years of life before that.

456
00:40:48,084 --> 00:40:52,975
I could start seeing reasons behind things that I thought were just unanswerable.

457
00:40:53,694 --> 00:40:59,095
I started seeing patterns and connections that I'd never noticed before.

458
00:40:59,634 --> 00:41:05,305
And it started to make sense of who I was and why I am the way I am.

459
00:41:05,605 --> 00:41:06,714
In what sort of areas?

460
00:41:06,774 --> 00:41:08,125
What sort of things made sense to you?

461
00:41:08,245 --> 00:41:14,365
Yeah, so there'd be so many things that I would just think that I was strange or unusual, because

462
00:41:14,365 --> 00:41:19,375
I would notice things that other people didn't, or I would approach things in a different way.

463
00:41:19,435 --> 00:41:24,299
And they were different to the way people around me were noticing and acting.

464
00:41:24,779 --> 00:41:30,135
So I just thought I was strange until I realised, no, my brain is built different.

465
00:41:30,435 --> 00:41:32,565
My brain is doing things differently.

466
00:41:32,595 --> 00:41:36,915
It's not wrong or weird; it's just different to everyone around me.

467
00:41:37,095 --> 00:41:43,515
I also asked Joel how this difference—how this new divergence—affected his work as a minister.

468
00:41:43,830 --> 00:41:50,550
Until Christmas last year, I was working full-time in parish ministry and had been for most of my adult life.

469
00:41:51,300 --> 00:42:00,360
But it was becoming clear to myself, to my family, to my work team that I was burning out—that trying to wrestle

470
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:08,720
with my ADHD, wrestle with my kids' neurodiversity and trying to put all those pieces together—I just didn't

471
00:42:08,779 --> 00:42:14,990
have the energy left to do the things in ministry that I weren't naturally gifted at—weren't easy for me.

472
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:22,550
And there's a lot of things in ministry that aren't easy, and you just got to push in and get them done, or find a way to get them done.

473
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:28,170
And I didn't have that energy, because I was really busy processing what I needed and what my boys needed.

474
00:42:28,770 --> 00:42:33,960
So at the end of last year, I stepped down from my ministry position to explore other

475
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:38,910
ministry opportunities that weren't parish work, because I just couldn't manage it anymore.

476
00:42:39,180 --> 00:42:45,720
What are your reflections as an ADHD person, but as someone who's therefore kind of thought into this area quite a lot, I guess,

477
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:53,160
both personally and what it means for me in ministry—how do you think neurodivergence and full-time ministry kind of fit together?

478
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,991
And what are the challenges or possibilities there?

479
00:42:56,095 --> 00:42:58,825
So when we're talking ministry, are we talking parish ministry?

480
00:42:58,825 --> 00:43:01,855
Are we talking serving Jesus in all kinds of spheres?

481
00:43:01,855 --> 00:43:02,935
Because I think they're different answers.

482
00:43:03,055 --> 00:43:03,565
Exactly.

483
00:43:03,565 --> 00:43:04,944
Well, why don't you give me an answer for each?

484
00:43:05,035 --> 00:43:07,705
Because I think they are different answers, so I'm interested in answers to both.

485
00:43:07,975 --> 00:43:08,214
Yeah.

486
00:43:08,274 --> 00:43:12,285
For example, I haven't left Christian ministry; I've left full-time parish ministry.

487
00:43:12,884 --> 00:43:15,765
But I'm still serving Jesus very directly in new employment.

488
00:43:16,365 --> 00:43:21,045
For parish ministry, I think one of the challenges is that we're still using almost the

489
00:43:21,045 --> 00:43:25,964
same ministry model for what a minister looks like that we were using a hundred years ago.

490
00:43:26,235 --> 00:43:30,435
Sure, we've updated for technology, we've brought in new systems.

491
00:43:30,825 --> 00:43:36,160
But a lot of is still, there's the guy, and I'm using that as a general neutral term, who

492
00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:41,009
covers everything and is covering all the bases and making sure everything is working.

493
00:43:41,310 --> 00:43:47,970
I was a children's and youth minister, so if it had—involved somebody under 18, I had to be all over it.

494
00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:55,080
So my gifts were in one area, but they weren't in every area, and I was finding myself having to

495
00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:00,270
pull myself together and get things done in an area that weren't my strengths, and that was draining.

496
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:07,590
So for someone with ADHD who uses up a lot of energy quickly, and doing things that aren't in

497
00:44:07,590 --> 00:44:13,140
the skillset, aren't naturally a fit, can be even more draining than for a neurotypical person.

498
00:44:13,770 --> 00:44:15,660
Parish ministry can be really hard.

499
00:44:15,870 --> 00:44:23,130
Unless you're on a really big team where the workload is spread, not based on areas, but based on abilities, you're going to struggle.

500
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:24,710
And that was my experience.

501
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:25,970
I was at a small church.

502
00:44:26,250 --> 00:44:28,470
There's only a small handful of us on the team.

503
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:29,865
And we just had to do everything.

504
00:44:30,525 --> 00:44:32,535
There's certainly an issue here for us to consider.

505
00:44:33,045 --> 00:44:37,905
How do different forms of neurodivergence affect people in Christian ministry?

506
00:44:38,205 --> 00:44:44,005
Do certain forms of neurodivergence make certain kinds of Christian ministry just too difficult—both

507
00:44:44,025 --> 00:44:48,825
for the minister themselves and for the team they're working in, and for the congregation?

508
00:44:49,485 --> 00:44:53,025
That's another tricky question we'll need to come back to in due course.

509
00:44:53,805 --> 00:44:56,924
Well, so far we've heard quite a lot of stories and experiences.

510
00:44:57,165 --> 00:45:01,464
But part of seeking to understand or assess a particular issue—to come to terms

511
00:45:01,464 --> 00:45:05,984
with it—is to zoom out a little and look at things from broader perspectives.

512
00:45:06,705 --> 00:45:14,174
Let's look at neurodivergence from the medical and clinical perspective, and also from the kind of broader social angle.

513
00:45:14,565 --> 00:45:20,085
This is our fifth and final area of focus in seeking to assess or understand this issue.

514
00:45:20,685 --> 00:45:24,915
There's been an explosion of medical and scientific research and growth in knowledge

515
00:45:24,944 --> 00:45:29,145
about different aspects of neurodivergence over the past two or three decades.

516
00:45:30,015 --> 00:45:38,040
It's now thought, for example, that ADHD is linked to a genetic brain development where certain neurotransmitters—dopamine

517
00:45:38,060 --> 00:45:44,450
and noradrenaline, for example—are not being picked up or absorbed efficiently or sufficiently in the brain.

518
00:45:44,780 --> 00:45:52,430
And this affects the ability of someone to regulate their attention and their motivation—their ability to focus, to get things done, to stay on

519
00:45:52,430 --> 00:46:01,070
task, or, in some cases, the ability to see beyond the task that's currently being done to the other important things that are remaining to be done.

520
00:46:01,705 --> 00:46:08,185
Now ADHD, medically speaking, is now regarded as having three kinds: a hyperactive kind, which is more common

521
00:46:08,185 --> 00:46:15,545
in boys; an inattentive version, which is more common in girls; and a version that is a mixture of both.

522
00:46:15,915 --> 00:46:24,794
But these differences in the way the neurodivergent brain functions or is "wired", as we put it, not only leads to some difficulties that

523
00:46:24,825 --> 00:46:31,544
neurodivergent people experience, but also leads to particular abilities—particular powers that neurodivergent people often excel at.

524
00:46:32,384 --> 00:46:34,185
We spoke with Lindy Hadges about this.

525
00:46:34,575 --> 00:46:40,785
Lindy has worked clinically in this area for some time, and is chair of the ADHD Foundation Australia.

526
00:46:41,194 --> 00:46:43,535
There's also some amazing positives.

527
00:46:43,540 --> 00:46:47,705
There's some incredible strengths that, you know, if you've got a workplace with

528
00:46:47,705 --> 00:46:52,685
30 people and three are neurodivergent, then they will just think differently.

529
00:46:52,685 --> 00:47:00,455
They will think outside of the box in a very lateral, unique way that your neurotypical people are just never going to be able to do.

530
00:47:00,455 --> 00:47:01,775
So they're big thinkers.

531
00:47:02,075 --> 00:47:03,214
They're lateral thinkers.

532
00:47:03,214 --> 00:47:04,475
They're different thinkers.

533
00:47:04,775 --> 00:47:06,995
They're usually incredibly creative.

534
00:47:07,105 --> 00:47:13,975
I don't think I've ever met an ADHD or ASD person that doesn't have some sort of unique creativity that

535
00:47:14,035 --> 00:47:20,575
I almost—uh, I hope that this isn't patronising to the community, but it's like their bionic superpower.

536
00:47:20,575 --> 00:47:26,575
It's something really special they bring to the table that a neurotypical person just can't do in the same way.

537
00:47:26,575 --> 00:47:30,595
And as well as that—in my mind, these are like the three big superpowers of the

538
00:47:30,745 --> 00:47:35,750
neurodiverse brain—is that, particularly ADHD people, they're incredibly intuitive.

539
00:47:36,110 --> 00:47:38,480
They work on that right side of their brain.

540
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,630
They're very in their body and connected to what's going on.

541
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:47,299
And they can feel and intuit things that a neurotypical brain, again, just can't do in the same way.

542
00:47:47,700 --> 00:47:50,970
What about the prevalence of neurodivergence in our population?

543
00:47:51,540 --> 00:47:57,069
Well, it's hard to get precise numbers, but something like 7 to 8 per cent of the population have

544
00:47:57,089 --> 00:48:03,660
been diagnosed with some form of ADHD, and that number has been rising rapidly in recent years.

545
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:13,060
The other most commonly talked about form of neurodivergence—that's autism—has a much lower incidence: only around 1.5 per cent of the population.

546
00:48:13,650 --> 00:48:20,580
But that number has also been growing significantly as awareness spreads and as new diagnosis guidelines take effect.

547
00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:28,330
In terms of the causes of autism and what's going on in an autistic person's brain, medically and scientifically speaking,

548
00:48:28,330 --> 00:48:36,940
this is even less well understood at the moment than ADHD, apart from the fact that, like ADHD, it tends to run in families.

549
00:48:37,660 --> 00:48:38,560
Here's Lindy again.

550
00:48:38,925 --> 00:48:45,285
So with ASD, they believe that some of the current theories are about how the left and right

551
00:48:45,285 --> 00:48:51,465
hemisphere are communicating with each other, and that causes social deficits in the ASD brain.

552
00:48:51,765 --> 00:48:59,615
Also, we know that dysregulation, which sits in the prefrontal cortex, again, is a huge issue if you live with autism.

553
00:48:59,915 --> 00:49:03,635
And so in that sense, we start to see some overlapping.

554
00:49:03,845 --> 00:49:10,745
Certainly recently in the last few years, I'm seeing more and more of the AuADHD diagnosis, which is

555
00:49:11,015 --> 00:49:18,134
those people that are living with ASD and ADHD together, which is just a whole another issue on its own.

556
00:49:18,584 --> 00:49:27,404
And so, we know that people who have ASD, that they might traditionally struggle with inflexibility, or are very

557
00:49:27,404 --> 00:49:34,315
black and white thinking, kind of dog—what we might see is dogmatic thinking, where they might get into lecture modes.

558
00:49:34,495 --> 00:49:39,455
It's hard to transition: if they're going down a particular pathway, it's hard to change their mind.

559
00:49:39,455 --> 00:49:46,955
There's a particular bunch of research out on the condition—I don't know what the obsession is with three letter acronyms, but it seems to be

560
00:49:46,955 --> 00:49:56,404
there's something called "PDA", which is Pathological Demand Avoidance, which both people with ADHD and ASD will struggle with from time to time.

561
00:49:56,755 --> 00:50:00,445
But it has different outworkings with both conditions.

562
00:50:00,685 --> 00:50:07,285
But essentially, it's a protective defense mechanism that if I'm going down a pathway and you come in and try to interject

563
00:50:07,555 --> 00:50:13,735
and move me off on a different pathway, my walls go up and I'm like, "No, I'm rock solid. I will not be moved from

564
00:50:13,735 --> 00:50:19,160
this." Which you can see, yay: it's got some great advantages to it, but it can have some disadvantages to it as well.

565
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:24,020
Well, it reminds me of the creative process of many truly great writers and authors that I've read about.

566
00:50:24,020 --> 00:50:26,240
Being a writer, I always am reading about writers.

567
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:33,800
And for many great authors, there's this—it can end up being quite antisocial and dysfunctional for their families.

568
00:50:34,070 --> 00:50:34,130
Yeah.

569
00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:36,020
But this incredible ability to focus.

570
00:50:36,110 --> 00:50:36,260
Yeah.

571
00:50:36,350 --> 00:50:43,160
And to keep your mind in a channel and in a world that you are creating, for example, in a novel or a research project you're

572
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:49,790
doing and an idea you are pursuing in a way that a neurotypical brain, if I can put it that way, will find it very difficult to do.

573
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:57,975
And so, you find that many people who've created truly extraordinary things, either scientifically or creatively, had that degree

574
00:50:57,975 --> 00:51:03,345
of walls up focus, "You are not diverting me from this under any costs. Doesn't matter who you are; I'm just keeping on going."

575
00:51:03,345 --> 00:51:04,125
Yes, exactly.

576
00:51:04,125 --> 00:51:07,515
And that has a name and that's called hyperfocus.

577
00:51:07,785 --> 00:51:16,995
And just going back to the ASD group of people, the ability to analyse information that—the incredible strength of the analytical mind of

578
00:51:16,995 --> 00:51:26,300
the ASDs just will show up in the scientific community, in the mathematics community, in high level management, in big companies, you know.

579
00:51:26,570 --> 00:51:35,630
They just have such an ability to be able to titrate down to the absolute core of what's going on, and analyse it and see it and report it back.

580
00:51:35,630 --> 00:51:39,680
And again, I think, not in a way that a neurotypical brain.

581
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,060
So there's definitely, you know, there's disadvantages and there's advantages to having both.

582
00:51:44,270 --> 00:51:48,140
The medical or clinical lens on neurodivergence is important.

583
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:57,990
After all, clinical assessment and diagnosis from psychologists and psychiatrists is how conditions like ADHD or ASD are identified.

584
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:07,855
But one of the challenges of being neurodivergent and thinking about this as a reality and as a subject is that the medical lens is not the only lens.

585
00:52:08,830 --> 00:52:12,970
Here's Kate Morris again, talking about the different models through which

586
00:52:12,970 --> 00:52:16,960
and in which neurodivergence has been understood over the past many decades.

587
00:52:17,259 --> 00:52:21,520
There are different approaches to neurodivergence and, in fact, to disability.

588
00:52:21,850 --> 00:52:24,850
And those models have changed and grown over time.

589
00:52:25,180 --> 00:52:29,470
None of them have completely disappeared, but we've built on them and they exist in different ways.

590
00:52:29,470 --> 00:52:38,259
So there's the model of the charity model, where we see difference and we say, "Oh, that's broken. Let's, together, as

591
00:52:38,259 --> 00:52:44,320
those who don't experience that difference, let's raise support. We'll hand that support to them and we'll work to fix

592
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:50,140
them." And this isn't done in communication with these people or to find out if that's the support they need and so on.

593
00:52:50,740 --> 00:52:58,680
That might be the sort of model where we say, "Let's raise money to support people who are autistic so that they can you know, stop being so autistic.

594
00:52:58,750 --> 00:52:58,870
Right.

595
00:52:59,620 --> 00:53:07,089
There's a medical model, which says, "You've got a problem. We've identified that problem, and we're going to fix that problem or find a cure to

596
00:53:07,089 --> 00:53:15,970
that problem." Also, this model doesn't approach the person with that difference to find out exactly what is going on or what their perspective is.

597
00:53:15,970 --> 00:53:18,654
Is it entirely a problem, for example, or does it also have positive aspects?

598
00:53:18,975 --> 00:53:19,455
As you were saying before.

599
00:53:19,455 --> 00:53:25,125
Yeah, and that's a really—that's a really important downside of the pure medical model—that a person

600
00:53:25,125 --> 00:53:30,735
might be stimming, for example, which is when someone flaps, they spin, they do something with their

601
00:53:30,735 --> 00:53:36,674
body that perhaps a neurotypical person doesn't need to do to very cleverly calm themselves down.

602
00:53:36,674 --> 00:53:37,245
It's wonderful.

603
00:53:37,245 --> 00:53:40,755
They're moving through space in order to calm themselves down.

604
00:53:41,055 --> 00:53:46,750
But a medical professional might look at that and say, "Oh, that is bad. Let's find a way to help them sit on their hands so that they're

605
00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:53,230
not doing that. Let's find a cure" without realising that actually, that already is the cure for something that they're coping with.

606
00:53:53,550 --> 00:53:58,780
Then there's the social model that says, "Well, let's ask and find out what people are experiencing."

607
00:53:58,780 --> 00:54:03,670
Are they experiencing a disability, or is this just a difference that they're quite happy to navigate?

608
00:54:03,850 --> 00:54:08,065
Is this something that they have an opinion on what support they'd like to have?

609
00:54:08,245 --> 00:54:09,925
And so, approaching in that sense.

610
00:54:09,925 --> 00:54:16,765
So that might be asking an autistic person how they're finding the lights in a room, or if the volume is up too loud—that sort of thing.

611
00:54:16,765 --> 00:54:20,755
Is there a way that we can make this environment less difficult for you?

612
00:54:20,755 --> 00:54:26,695
And allowing them to say, "For me, I'd quite like bright lights. This is great for me, but yeah, the volume is too loud." That sort of thing.

613
00:54:27,175 --> 00:54:31,055
Then there's the human rights model, which approaches it from the point of view that

614
00:54:31,395 --> 00:54:36,500
every human has a right to be able to operate in this world without pain and difficulty.

615
00:54:36,860 --> 00:54:41,930
And so, because it's a right, we're going to build it into our policies and practice and procedures

616
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:47,990
in order to ensure that a person is going to be cared for and supported in a way that they need.

617
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:53,760
And so, there are downsides to all of these things, and I think the main thing that we're missing across all

618
00:54:53,760 --> 00:55:02,190
of them is God, and the loving support and Christian community that we see in the Bible where what we actually

619
00:55:02,190 --> 00:55:10,920
need is a world that approaches everyone in the 1 Corinthians 12 sense of us humans being created by God.

620
00:55:11,310 --> 00:55:19,205
Christians are one in the body of Christ with all of our differences, and we are called to love and serve

621
00:55:19,205 --> 00:55:24,365
each other in this interdependent relationship where, together, we're dependent on Christ for salvation,

622
00:55:24,815 --> 00:55:31,055
on God, for grace, on the Holy Spirit for renewal, maturity, and together working to glorify God.

623
00:55:31,475 --> 00:55:37,515
As Kate says, there is a truth in all these models or lenses for understanding neurodivergence.

624
00:55:38,135 --> 00:55:40,475
But none of them really are adequate on their own.

625
00:55:40,895 --> 00:55:47,405
And the missing perspective is the one that Kate points to: the perspective of seeing God as the creator

626
00:55:47,405 --> 00:55:54,185
of all of us; the perspective of the Fall and of sin and of brokenness, of redemption and renewal in

627
00:55:54,185 --> 00:56:01,395
Christ, of a new community of people who relate differently in Christ, of a new creation in Christ.

628
00:56:01,905 --> 00:56:06,240
But that, of course, takes us to the second stage or phase of our exploration of this

629
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:12,540
subject—to a biblical and theological reflection on the issues connected with neurodivergence.

630
00:56:12,750 --> 00:56:15,210
And that will be the subject of our next episode.

631
00:56:15,870 --> 00:56:18,480
But let's conclude just by briefly recapping where we are.

632
00:56:18,930 --> 00:56:26,060
We've been in the first phase of our exploration—of assessing, of seeking to understand and listen and interrogate this whole question.

633
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:30,620
We've looked at the experience of neurodivergent people themselves and heard their voices.

634
00:56:31,189 --> 00:56:35,600
We've done likewise with the experience of parents of neurodivergent kids.

635
00:56:35,959 --> 00:56:40,759
We've thought about some of the issues that arise about church and about the Christian faith and

636
00:56:40,790 --> 00:56:45,970
Christian living in light of neurodivergence and about neurodivergence in Christian ministry.

637
00:56:46,509 --> 00:56:52,320
And finally, we zoomed out a little bit and looked at neurodivergence from a medical and clinical and social perspective.

638
00:56:52,740 --> 00:56:56,100
Now, of course, all of these could have been done in much greater depth and detail.

639
00:56:56,700 --> 00:57:01,410
But I hope we've looked at the issue sufficiently and sought to assess and understand the issue sufficiently

640
00:57:01,980 --> 00:57:07,779
to be able to now go to the Bible and see what it says about the important subject of neurodivergence.

641
00:57:08,290 --> 00:57:15,220
If you have questions arising from this episode or from any of the episodes that we put out in this short series, we'd love you to get in touch.

642
00:57:15,850 --> 00:57:22,089
Please send us a voice memo or an email to ccl@moore.edu.au.

643
00:57:22,089 --> 00:57:27,029
That's ccl@moore.edu.au.

644
00:57:27,490 --> 00:57:33,609
And we'll deal with as many of the questions and issues you raise as we can in future edition of this podcast.

645
00:57:34,385 --> 00:57:38,495
In the meantime, thanks for being with us on this special edition of the CCL Podcast.

646
00:57:39,005 --> 00:57:39,875
I'm Tony Payne.

647
00:57:40,235 --> 00:57:40,895
'Bye for now.

648
00:57:56,105 --> 00:58:00,875
Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College.

649
00:58:01,355 --> 00:58:05,965
For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website: that's

650
00:58:05,965 --> 00:58:15,025
ccl.moore.edu.au—where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the

651
00:58:15,025 --> 00:58:21,465
way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre.

652
00:58:21,830 --> 00:58:25,520
And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make an

653
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:30,380
tax deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College.

654
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:38,630
We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources.

655
00:58:39,259 --> 00:58:43,790
And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions.

656
00:58:43,790 --> 00:58:50,450
Please get in touch: you can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au.

657
00:58:50,660 --> 00:58:56,450
Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and

658
00:58:56,540 --> 00:59:03,964
editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week.

659
00:59:04,025 --> 00:59:04,835
Thank you for listening.

660
00:59:05,345 --> 00:59:06,185
I'm Tony Payne.

661
00:59:06,575 --> 00:59:06,964
'Bye for now.