1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,460 Do you ever get that feeling that the teachings of the Bible, which you know and love as a Christian, and the 2 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:12,510 complex and painful things that actually happen in your life somehow, don't always connect—that when you are 3 00:00:12,510 --> 00:00:19,260 in the midst of pain and grief and difficulty, you're not exactly sure what the gospel has to say about it? 4 00:00:20,265 --> 00:00:25,575 Well, Andrew Nicholls had exactly that experience as a pastor, trying to help his parishioners 5 00:00:25,575 --> 00:00:31,005 with the pain and grief of their lives, and finding that he didn't have a whole lot to say to them. 6 00:00:31,455 --> 00:00:38,595 And in today's episode, Andrew speaks about this experience of having not much to say, and how it led to a turning point in his ministry 7 00:00:39,105 --> 00:00:48,135 and in his whole view of what a pastor's job is, and in his understanding of how the gospel speaks to the realities of our lives. 8 00:00:48,915 --> 00:00:51,585 I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Andrew 9 00:00:53,975 --> 00:00:54,665 Nicholls. 10 00:01:06,915 --> 00:01:07,785 Well, hello everyone. 11 00:01:07,785 --> 00:01:11,085 Welcome to another edition of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 12 00:01:11,085 --> 00:01:12,045 I'm Tony Payne. 13 00:01:12,075 --> 00:01:13,305 It's great to be with you again. 14 00:01:13,455 --> 00:01:21,225 And today, my guest here in the CCL studio at Moore College in Sydney is Andrew Nicholls from Oak Hill College in London. 15 00:01:21,375 --> 00:01:23,205 Andrew, lovely to have you with us. 16 00:01:23,295 --> 00:01:23,925 Glad to be here. 17 00:01:24,465 --> 00:01:26,055 And you're here in Sydney why? 18 00:01:26,175 --> 00:01:29,295 I have the great privilege of being in the middle of study leave. 19 00:01:29,415 --> 00:01:30,975 I work at a college in North London. 20 00:01:31,005 --> 00:01:39,565 They give a very generous five months away from college to enrich myself, learn some things, and I've headed down here to learn some things. 21 00:01:40,285 --> 00:01:44,725 Well, it's extremely humbling to think, Andrew, that from the motherland you'd come and learn from us colonials. 22 00:01:44,725 --> 00:01:46,615 But what do you think you might learn? 23 00:01:47,305 --> 00:01:50,335 I've learned so many things from Aussies over the years. 24 00:01:50,335 --> 00:01:57,955 We've been greatly enriched by visits from many of you to London—to England—and they've been really important in my own Christian life. 25 00:01:58,435 --> 00:02:06,074 The particular reasons why I've come here arise out of a conversation that I had with one of your colleagues, Paul Grimmond, who—he 26 00:02:06,390 --> 00:02:12,150 was walking past my door in my normal workplace and I happened to come out and my study at just the right time in God's providence. 27 00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:15,270 We had no plan to meet, but God had a plan for us to meet. 28 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,640 And out of that, we chatted for an hour or so with Paul and his wife Cathy. 29 00:02:18,690 --> 00:02:26,100 And when I began to hear about the kinds of things that were now part of the curriculum here in the College and increasingly 30 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:31,200 part of normal life in the diocese, there were two things in particular that I very much wanted to come and learn more about. 31 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:38,174 One was a part of the curriculum called Intentional Ministry Reflection, where students are encouraged to think about how 32 00:02:38,174 --> 00:02:44,505 they're doing in some of the ministry experiences and how they're responding and what they can learn from how ministry is going. 33 00:02:44,984 --> 00:02:52,245 And in the diocese, the decision to expect that every person in ordained ministry would have a pastoral supervisor. 34 00:02:52,245 --> 00:02:57,855 Those two things sounded fascinating to me and immediately appealed to me as something that I thought we could be learning from. 35 00:02:57,855 --> 00:03:02,615 And I'd love to think about how we could incorporate some of that expertise back in the UK. 36 00:03:02,945 --> 00:03:08,075 We've had a conversation a few weeks ago here on our podcast with Caroline Spencer, who 37 00:03:08,135 --> 00:03:13,055 wrote the workbook—a book that's coming out of that Intentional Ministry Reflection idea. 38 00:03:13,085 --> 00:03:14,665 "Getting Over Yourself", the book is called. 39 00:03:14,665 --> 00:03:17,865 And it's about this whole idea of self-reflection, self-awareness. 40 00:03:17,865 --> 00:03:17,995 Yeah. 41 00:03:18,305 --> 00:03:20,345 Of being aware of yourself in the situation. 42 00:03:20,345 --> 00:03:21,365 Why did I behave like that? 43 00:03:21,395 --> 00:03:22,205 Why did I do that? 44 00:03:22,295 --> 00:03:22,475 Yeah. 45 00:03:22,685 --> 00:03:25,595 Why did that conversation that I just had with someone not go so well? 46 00:03:25,595 --> 00:03:25,775 And— 47 00:03:25,835 --> 00:03:26,015 Yeah. 48 00:03:26,265 --> 00:03:28,515 —what was it about me that perhaps contributed to that? 49 00:03:28,605 --> 00:03:29,144 Well, exactly. 50 00:03:29,144 --> 00:03:36,855 I think the idea that there are reasons which, in some way, will often relate quite deeply to some aspect of me and 51 00:03:36,855 --> 00:03:42,304 my relationship with God, and that the gospel has a power to change the way in the end that I react to things—that 52 00:03:42,885 --> 00:03:46,920 kind of thinking is—has been really exciting to me, and it's the heart actually of what I teach in my day job. 53 00:03:47,130 --> 00:03:49,170 So your day job at Oak Hill is what, then? 54 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:49,860 What do you teach? 55 00:03:49,910 --> 00:03:53,250 Well, I'm director of pastoral care at Oak Hill, and that job has two parts. 56 00:03:53,250 --> 00:03:56,280 One is that I teach pastoral ministry to students. 57 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,870 There's a bit that I get to teach them in the first year and the second year and the third year. 58 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,370 And in the other half of my job, I get to have individual conversations with students, 59 00:04:05,370 --> 00:04:09,240 counselling—supportive conversations with students who are working through particular tricky things. 60 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,065 So I hope that I'm teaching them some of the skills they need and some of the 61 00:04:14,065 --> 00:04:18,354 foundations they need to have those conversations themselves as part of their ministry. 62 00:04:18,654 --> 00:04:25,974 One of the passions that drew me to this job was the opportunity to help students think about their future ministry, 63 00:04:25,974 --> 00:04:32,995 not just as a public pulpit-based ministry, but as a conversational, let me get to know and love people as individuals 64 00:04:33,330 --> 00:04:38,340 and care for the souls of individuals, especially some of the wounded sheep, some of the bruised reeds that Jesus has 65 00:04:38,340 --> 00:04:42,979 a particular concern for and a particular gentleness with that needs to be reflected in the character of the pastor. 66 00:04:42,979 --> 00:04:47,580 So the pulpit serves the heart of a church's life, but conversations are pretty important too. 67 00:04:48,510 --> 00:04:52,169 So this has come out of, I'm assuming, your own experience in ministry— 68 00:04:52,169 --> 00:04:52,260 Yeah. 69 00:04:52,260 --> 00:04:54,450 —your own way of thinking about ministry? 70 00:04:54,450 --> 00:04:55,860 Is that how you always thought about ministry? 71 00:04:55,950 --> 00:04:56,760 No, it isn't. 72 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,419 And I think you're absolutely right: it does come out of my experience. 73 00:05:00,870 --> 00:05:05,490 I trained as a medic and I picked up some skills there about having conversations with people. 74 00:05:06,170 --> 00:05:07,310 What a privilege a doctor has! 75 00:05:07,310 --> 00:05:12,560 You can ask literally, if you think about it, about any part of a person's bodily functions, and they will expect to tell you. 76 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,840 I mean, it's a wonderful privilege, in some sense. 77 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:23,740 But I then learned a lot of theology, because I was transferring—I was persuaded of the huge significance of life—afterlife. 78 00:05:23,765 --> 00:05:24,905 Life in the new creation. 79 00:05:24,995 --> 00:05:25,775 Life after death. 80 00:05:25,775 --> 00:05:27,245 Because all my patients were dying. 81 00:05:27,245 --> 00:05:30,455 And it's not only because I wasn't a great doctor; it's because every patient dies. 82 00:05:30,965 --> 00:05:36,305 And the value, therefore, of speaking about Jesus impressed itself upon me as something 83 00:05:36,305 --> 00:05:38,914 that might be even more useful thing to do for people than to care for their bodies. 84 00:05:39,575 --> 00:05:45,735 I think at the time, I was convinced by a slightly more overstated version of that than I would now articulate, if that makes sense. 85 00:05:45,735 --> 00:05:51,645 That I think God still cares for and loves our bodies, and indeed people are whole people, body and soul. 86 00:05:51,765 --> 00:05:54,045 So I was making too much of a divide, I think. 87 00:05:54,075 --> 00:05:58,664 However, the Lord used it to move me from focusing on care of people's bodies to the care of people's souls. 88 00:05:58,664 --> 00:06:04,605 And having been myself as a student at Oak Hill and ending up in church ministry, I realised that a 89 00:06:04,605 --> 00:06:09,584 number of people would come to me for help with things that I didn't have a clue really how to answer. 90 00:06:09,584 --> 00:06:14,669 So I remember a number of such conversations—people coming, for example, saying, "Our marriage is in 91 00:06:14,669 --> 00:06:20,099 trouble. Can you help?" A different marriage saying, "I think my husband's being unfaithful. Can you help?" 92 00:06:20,159 --> 00:06:26,789 A completely different situation: a very difficult experience in childhood of abuse in a different culture. 93 00:06:26,939 --> 00:06:34,569 They wanted help to work it through as part of their Christian discipleship, and I didn't have really a clue what to do apart from to pray. 94 00:06:34,750 --> 00:06:35,740 I didn't know what to say. 95 00:06:35,740 --> 00:06:37,929 I didn't know where to start actually connecting. 96 00:06:38,469 --> 00:06:41,339 All that I'd studied in Scripture in Greek and Hebrew. 97 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:44,020 I didn't know really where it to go to be helpful to them. 98 00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:50,980 And it struck me that that couldn't be a satisfactory position for a pastor to be in, as a pastor's supposed to have the cure of souls. 99 00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:57,400 And the burden in their souls was something I thought Jesus had something to offer, but I didn't know how to find out what that was. 100 00:06:57,459 --> 00:07:04,324 And after a few years in ministry, the Lord opened up a possibility for me to build into my weekly calendar—I had a 101 00:07:04,324 --> 00:07:10,745 study day, and I began studying some modules with a wonderful organisation based in Philadelphia and other states called 102 00:07:10,745 --> 00:07:16,775 Christian Counselling and Education Foundation, and what they have been doing over many years—they're part of a movement 103 00:07:16,804 --> 00:07:22,385 called "Biblical Counselling", but really, it's about connecting the riches of Scripture with the realities of life. 104 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,479 And as I began studying those modules, the first thing that happened was I changed. 105 00:07:26,479 --> 00:07:31,280 I understood more about how Scripture really connected with my own heart and what it meant for me to grow 106 00:07:31,370 --> 00:07:37,010 as a Christian—what the normal Christian life should feel like for me as a Christian before I was a pastor. 107 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:42,469 And that became a big part of the foundation of how then I have a conversation with somebody else. 108 00:07:43,010 --> 00:07:45,949 And as I began to learn that, actually, I think my preaching changed. 109 00:07:45,949 --> 00:07:47,539 There was more application in my sermon. 110 00:07:47,929 --> 00:07:50,239 There was more gentleness in my ministry, I think. 111 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:58,329 And instead of—I had developed the reflex when people were asking all these challenging questions, the reflex of withdrawing internally. 112 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:01,130 "I hope they don't bring their complicated problems to me, because I won't know 113 00:08:01,130 --> 00:08:05,235 what to say and I'll feel like I'm letting them down. So I'm going to withdraw." 114 00:08:05,265 --> 00:08:07,155 Make myself, perhaps, less accessible. 115 00:08:07,304 --> 00:08:08,025 Yes! 116 00:08:08,054 --> 00:08:11,655 Keep going with the idea that my main thing is to preach a sermon, and that takes a lot of time. 117 00:08:11,655 --> 00:08:12,885 So I may not be available for you. 118 00:08:12,885 --> 00:08:14,204 But something in me flipped. 119 00:08:14,235 --> 00:08:22,995 And actually, I began feeling encouraged—glad that people would come to me with questions, because I knew that Jesus had something to offer them. 120 00:08:23,135 --> 00:08:29,765 And it wouldn't always be that I would know what it was or be brilliant at it, but the idea that someone would bring a problem, bring a struggle 121 00:08:29,765 --> 00:08:38,375 with sin, bring a pain and a suffering to the Lord to find out how he might help, and I might have a part to play in working out what that was. 122 00:08:38,645 --> 00:08:39,695 That's extraordinary. 123 00:08:39,725 --> 00:08:40,685 A great privilege. 124 00:08:40,685 --> 00:08:51,864 And I've loved learning that, really, Christ does meet us and equip us to be Galatians 6—to carry each other's burdens; to talk 125 00:08:51,864 --> 00:09:00,204 to each other, winsomely and gently about sin; to listen in ways that are constructive and careful before we start to speak. 126 00:09:00,685 --> 00:09:02,795 All kinds of things are built into all of that. 127 00:09:02,964 --> 00:09:07,890 You were saying that when you were doing some of those modules with CCEF that it changed you. 128 00:09:07,890 --> 00:09:14,310 It changed the way you, in a sense, saw the gospel relating to your own life. 129 00:09:14,340 --> 00:09:14,520 Yeah. 130 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:15,600 And your own soul. 131 00:09:15,689 --> 00:09:15,840 Yeah. 132 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:21,990 Can you give, just without divulging anything too personal, an example of what sort of thing you mean? 133 00:09:22,079 --> 00:09:27,459 I can, because it's an example, I've used quite a lot so I'm very used to speaking about it publicly, and there's no embarrassment there. 134 00:09:27,969 --> 00:09:33,310 We used to have recycling that was collected in green crates that would often get a bit 135 00:09:33,310 --> 00:09:37,270 too full before the time came to put them out for the recycling lorry to collect them. 136 00:09:37,810 --> 00:09:43,719 And one of these crates had several lemonade bottles in it—empty lemonade bottles, which were very light, and it turns out, very bouncy. 137 00:09:43,719 --> 00:09:46,859 And as I was picking up one of these crates, the bottle rolled off, bounced across 138 00:09:46,859 --> 00:09:50,560 the floor, and I picked it up, put it back on the crate, but it bounced off again. 139 00:09:50,620 --> 00:09:55,814 This time, I picked it up and shoved it back on a bit more forcefully, with the result that three lemonade 140 00:09:55,814 --> 00:10:00,885 bottles now bounced off, and I found myself saying, "Nnnggh!" and getting cross with bouncing lemonade bottles. 141 00:10:00,885 --> 00:10:02,084 Very understandably, I would've thought! 142 00:10:02,084 --> 00:10:09,734 Well, I'd been doing some study in this kind of way of thinking, and so I became more self-reflective at that point than I would otherwise have been. 143 00:10:09,765 --> 00:10:10,185 Yes. 144 00:10:10,420 --> 00:10:14,860 And I think I felt that there was something irrational about being cross with a lemonade bottle, and then I went— 145 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:15,370 True. 146 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:20,080 —"The right person to be cross with was myself." But then why was I being irritated by it? 147 00:10:20,650 --> 00:10:24,550 At the time, my reflection went in all kinds of directions in a very short space of time. 148 00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:30,100 But I realised that I wanted to be the kind of person who achieved what they set out to achieve first time, every time. 149 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:36,040 I didn't want to face the limitation of being not brilliant at everything I did, even ever something as trivial as the recycling. 150 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,990 And actually, I think, in some ways, I felt justified because I thought that I was doing this in service of my family. 151 00:10:42,050 --> 00:10:43,700 You know, I hadn't drunk all this lemonade. 152 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,080 And so there was an irritation at whoever had put this here and made a job that was difficult for me. 153 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,520 That was going on in my heart at the same time. 154 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:55,650 Even, I think, I was expecting that, in some way, sovereign God, if he really cared for me, would suspend 155 00:10:55,670 --> 00:11:00,040 the laws of nature so I could get away with doing whatever I wanted without having lemonade bottles bouncing. 156 00:11:00,110 --> 00:11:01,590 Now that's insane. 157 00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:06,400 But I think something of all of those threads was in my heart behind that "Nnnngh!". 158 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:13,110 And again, because I'd been looking at it at the time, the Lord very kindly and very gently led me to repent. 159 00:11:13,890 --> 00:11:20,580 And I actually praised him that I was a very limited and finite being who couldn't, like him, do everything I wanted first time. 160 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:28,170 And to be able to enjoy that and for that to become an act of worship was entirely the Spirit's work in me. 161 00:11:28,475 --> 00:11:32,765 But a very, very ordinary moment of life transformed by thinking about the Lord. 162 00:11:32,855 --> 00:11:35,705 So that's an example that was going through my mind at the time. 163 00:11:35,705 --> 00:11:42,035 And actually every single time I take out the recycling now, I'm experiencing something of the very same battle. 164 00:11:42,065 --> 00:11:46,625 But I'm a little bit quicker to either try and carry a little bit less, or if I try 165 00:11:46,625 --> 00:11:50,234 and carry too much and it falls off again, I say, "Thank you, Lord, for reminding me." 166 00:11:50,295 --> 00:11:55,814 So it sounds like it's a little bit, as we were talking about intentional reflection and self-awareness— 167 00:11:55,964 --> 00:11:56,145 Yeah. 168 00:11:56,145 --> 00:12:02,625 —it's almost pausing at each moment, and you've given us a sort of almost ultra-trivial moment of everyday life. 169 00:12:02,655 --> 00:12:02,714 Yeah. 170 00:12:02,714 --> 00:12:08,600 And you can imagine just transferring that thought process into slightly less trivial moments— 171 00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:08,689 Yeah. 172 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,430 —of relational conflict— 173 00:12:10,819 --> 00:12:11,030 That's right. 174 00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:13,370 —of frustration and anger and suffering and all kinds of things. 175 00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:13,520 Yeah. 176 00:12:13,730 --> 00:12:16,250 And asking, "What is it about this situation? 177 00:12:16,250 --> 00:12:20,420 What is it about me and how I think about the world—what I desire— 178 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:20,660 Yeah. 179 00:12:20,810 --> 00:12:22,760 —what I'm hoping for, what I expect— 180 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:22,910 Yeah. 181 00:12:22,939 --> 00:12:23,960 —what I think I deserve— 182 00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:24,319 Yes. 183 00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:27,870 —what is it that's triggering feelings of anger, frustration, sorrow, grief? 184 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,970 What is it about this particular situation that is exposing something about me?" 185 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:33,750 Exactly. 186 00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:38,340 And you're quite right that in many senses, this was an ultra-trivial moment. 187 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:43,410 But in another sense, relationally, it wasn't, because there was something in my heart that was pretty 188 00:12:43,410 --> 00:12:47,250 significant about my attitude to the Lord, and there certainly was about my attitude to my family. 189 00:12:47,250 --> 00:12:47,520 Yeah. 190 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:48,720 You know, the resentment. 191 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,850 So that—picture me coming back into the house, having done that, feeling cross because they drunk too 192 00:12:53,850 --> 00:12:59,490 much lemonade, versus coming back into the house feeling grateful to the Lord, because he'd humbled me. 193 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,030 You know, I'm going to be a different dad. 194 00:13:01,070 --> 00:13:02,940 I'm going to be a different husband. 195 00:13:03,420 --> 00:13:08,970 So yes: it's a little tiny window of the kind of thing that I do all the time that's always revealing my heart. 196 00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:17,280 So it sounds like in your interactions with CCEF, in your own reflection on how you were trained for ministry—what you thought ministry was 197 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:25,620 about, what you thought the care of souls now really was—it sounds like you were coming to different convictions about the nature of church 198 00:13:25,620 --> 00:13:32,415 leadership, about the nature of ministry, and obviously that's what you've now been called into theological education to teach others. 199 00:13:32,415 --> 00:13:36,855 But if you could capture what was it that changed in your view of the nature 200 00:13:36,855 --> 00:13:42,075 of church ministry and leadership and how we prepare people for that task? 201 00:13:42,555 --> 00:13:43,564 Yeah, great question. 202 00:13:43,685 --> 00:13:51,449 I think one big change was that I realised that ministry was about a good deal more than the public 203 00:13:51,449 --> 00:13:57,000 one-to-many ministry—that there was a more personal one-to-one aspect of ministry that fitted with that. 204 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:02,910 And actually, the conversations would help me be a better preacher, because I'd know better the people I was actually preparing God's word to feed. 205 00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:10,245 But it was also that I, as a minister, and everybody else were basically inching our way along, 206 00:14:10,334 --> 00:14:16,155 with the power of God's extraordinary Spirit, in little tiny steps, growing more like Christ. 207 00:14:16,665 --> 00:14:21,025 But that there was a therefore—and if we're going to be honest about that—people 208 00:14:21,045 --> 00:14:26,625 needed to see me inching along—me progressing, you know, as Paul says to Timothy, to 209 00:14:26,630 --> 00:14:29,420 watch my life and doctrine closely so that people 210 00:14:29,420 --> 00:14:30,339 will see my progress. 211 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:37,500 Now, I think what I thought that really meant was—could largely be satisfied by watching my doctrine closely. 212 00:14:37,530 --> 00:14:37,680 Yeah. 213 00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:41,630 But it doesn't say, "Watch your life or doctrine closely"; it says, "Watch both". 214 00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:45,960 And if people see progress in both, that means they're going to have to know that I'm a sinner. 215 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:46,800 Yes. 216 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:54,570 And they're going to have to see that in some way that convinces them I really am so that they can see me progress in that as well. 217 00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:56,880 I think that must be what Paul is requiring of Timothy. 218 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:05,930 So that means I have to have a willingness to be known as a kind of—I don't feel embarrassed now to say that I shouted at a lemonade bottle. 219 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:10,110 But it wasn't only that; they needed to know a little bit about what it was like 220 00:15:10,110 --> 00:15:13,890 in my family—the fact I was not always a perfectly patient husband and father. 221 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,490 And that would be obvious from time to time when people came into our home. 222 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:25,230 But I also needed, I think, to help people understand when I'm preaching, I actually am willing to apply Scripture to myself and say, 223 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:32,580 "How has this spoken to me this week? What sin have I been convicted of? What promise has reassured me this week?" And that carries 224 00:15:32,580 --> 00:15:41,170 through into training, because I think we need to help pastors as they start out in ministries for themselves to have something of that 225 00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:43,350 kind of willingness—that they're not just 226 00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:50,439 going to be preaching a sermon, which will—going to be up for criticism; they're going to be living a life which needs to be open to— 227 00:15:51,114 --> 00:15:51,714 Correction? 228 00:15:51,834 --> 00:15:52,464 Correction. 229 00:15:52,524 --> 00:15:53,004 Thank you. 230 00:15:53,034 --> 00:15:59,694 I was going to say "inspection", but what that really means is open to correction, open to—so that people can see you grow. 231 00:16:00,175 --> 00:16:01,494 And also see when you don't grow. 232 00:16:01,584 --> 00:16:03,294 And see you struggle with things. 233 00:16:03,714 --> 00:16:04,344 Like they will be. 234 00:16:05,904 --> 00:16:11,604 It strikes me as you speak about it, I can imagine—if I can put myself in the place of being trained for ministry 235 00:16:11,604 --> 00:16:19,645 and going out into ministry, fresh and new again, it's easy to think, I think, that we've got to get the Bible right, 236 00:16:19,734 --> 00:16:25,734 and we must stand for doctrine and fight for the truth, and not take a backward step in contending for the truth. 237 00:16:25,734 --> 00:16:30,215 And we want our lives to be an example to those around us. 238 00:16:30,945 --> 00:16:40,984 But perhaps it's easy to conflate those things and therefore, almost think my life has to be as blameless and as perfect as my doctrine. 239 00:16:40,984 --> 00:16:45,204 Or it's not seen to be that, somehow I'm less than a good minister or something. 240 00:16:45,594 --> 00:16:46,104 Yeah. 241 00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:52,539 I don't think I'd ever thought of expressing it like that, but that seems to me to be a very helpful way to capture the problem. 242 00:16:53,019 --> 00:16:57,729 I mean, I think—we talk at Oak Hill quite a bit about "We want to grow people to be lifelong learners". 243 00:16:57,819 --> 00:16:57,969 Yeah. 244 00:16:57,969 --> 00:17:04,089 So we want people not just to study while they're at college, but to gain the tools that will help them be studying and learning for life. 245 00:17:04,089 --> 00:17:08,260 And there's a sense in which you can grow in knowledge just by learning more. 246 00:17:08,454 --> 00:17:14,034 You don't necessarily have to have got some things wrong, but you do have to have had some areas of ignorance that are being filled. 247 00:17:14,274 --> 00:17:19,704 What it means to grow in life, to become more like Jesus, I think, must inevitably, and there are ways in which 248 00:17:19,704 --> 00:17:26,874 I'm not very like him right now, and for my patience gradually to grow, for my compassion for the lost gradually 249 00:17:26,935 --> 00:17:35,364 to grow, for my anger at the horror—the destructiveness of sin—to grow in a righteous way like Christ's. 250 00:17:35,725 --> 00:17:37,135 Those are lifelong projects. 251 00:17:37,225 --> 00:17:39,235 And wonderfully, he's doing them in me. 252 00:17:39,235 --> 00:17:40,345 He's doing them in every Christian. 253 00:17:40,705 --> 00:17:42,805 But I think for people to see that 254 00:17:42,805 --> 00:17:44,784 happen in me, they're going to have to see ways in 255 00:17:44,784 --> 00:17:46,495 which I'm currently not there. 256 00:18:13,735 --> 00:18:19,794 Since New Testament times, some of those motivated with a passion for sharing the good news of Jesus have 257 00:18:19,794 --> 00:18:26,665 embraced ministry in very hard places, struggling with stony ground and with little or no obvious gospel fruit. 258 00:18:27,235 --> 00:18:33,835 For hundreds of years and in many places around the world, this has also been the experience of some cross-cultural mission workers. 259 00:18:34,629 --> 00:18:35,769 But what does God think? 260 00:18:36,219 --> 00:18:43,029 Whether in a local church or in a missionary location, how does someone decide between struggling on faithfully, despite the lack of 261 00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:50,499 visible gospel fruit, or moving to more fertile ground where God's Spirit is more obviously working and where fruit is more available? 262 00:18:51,504 --> 00:18:58,284 To help us think through these types of questions, join us for our next Centre for Global Mission event, when Richard Chin, National 263 00:18:58,284 --> 00:19:05,424 Director of the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students, will help us examine the Bible, and David Williams, Director of Training 264 00:19:05,424 --> 00:19:11,874 and Development at the Church Missionary Society Australia, will give us insights from the history and practice of global mission. 265 00:19:12,835 --> 00:19:15,625 Find out more and register on the Moore College website. 266 00:19:15,955 --> 00:19:19,844 That's moore.edu.au. 267 00:19:20,395 --> 00:19:22,835 That's moore.edu.au. 268 00:19:23,185 --> 00:19:25,254 And now let's get back to our program. 269 00:19:25,615 --> 00:19:29,605 But before we get on to talking, how this is more relevant to the Christian life, I guess it strikes 270 00:19:29,605 --> 00:19:35,215 me that what you are saying about the nature of ministry and what good ministry leadership is about, if 271 00:19:35,215 --> 00:19:39,504 we can use the pop psychology word and say, to some extent it's about "vulnerability" or transparency. 272 00:19:39,504 --> 00:19:42,745 It's about showing yourself as someone who's making progress— 273 00:19:42,775 --> 00:19:42,835 Yeah. 274 00:19:42,835 --> 00:19:47,754 —showing yourself as someone who is humble, who is repentant, who is constantly repentant in their life. 275 00:19:47,785 --> 00:19:47,965 Yeah. 276 00:19:48,295 --> 00:19:55,135 You think of church scandals broadly, whether in America or Australia or the UK, and let's not be specific, but there are certainly plenty of 277 00:19:55,135 --> 00:20:00,715 instances you can think of where there may have been some problem, there may have been some mistake, there may have been some bad behaviour. 278 00:20:01,085 --> 00:20:03,385 But we need to shut it down and keep it quiet. 279 00:20:03,939 --> 00:20:06,459 We need to hold the line and retain our reputation. 280 00:20:06,459 --> 00:20:09,399 After all, the minister should be blameless, and there'll be so much damage— 281 00:20:09,459 --> 00:20:09,639 Yeah. 282 00:20:09,759 --> 00:20:13,239 —if we admit that we've made a mistake or that there's been some sin here. 283 00:20:13,539 --> 00:20:13,659 Yeah. 284 00:20:13,659 --> 00:20:20,370 And so, you can easily close ranks and put the reputation of the gospel and the ministry in the forefront. 285 00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:21,209 Do you know what I'm saying? 286 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:22,649 I do know what you're saying. 287 00:20:22,830 --> 00:20:27,659 I recognise that very much and I think, yeah, Scripture tells us that an elder must be above reproach. 288 00:20:27,719 --> 00:20:31,290 But it absolutely does not and cannot mean that they must be sinless. 289 00:20:31,409 --> 00:20:38,534 And therefore, we have to find ways of understanding what that means that still allows for the inevitability of the fact 290 00:20:38,534 --> 00:20:46,064 that leaders will sin and they will sin in ways that are hurtful to other people and that cause some damage to other people. 291 00:20:46,425 --> 00:20:52,215 Sin always has a horizontal and a vertical component—always in respect to the Lord and it always has impacts on those around us. 292 00:20:52,695 --> 00:20:58,149 And we know that our pastors, our leaders, our vicars, our rectors are not sinless. 293 00:20:58,509 --> 00:21:00,360 So we know that that is going to happen. 294 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:01,749 We know that sin is going to happen. 295 00:21:02,139 --> 00:21:05,289 And that has to be part of the normal life of church. 296 00:21:05,769 --> 00:21:11,620 And so for an elder, a pastor, a vicar to be in the habit of, when necessary, 297 00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:17,024 saying quickly, genuinely, "I'm so sorry. I think I completely stuffed that up." 298 00:21:17,475 --> 00:21:21,434 Someone very kindly spoke to me after church last week and pointed out that one of the things 299 00:21:21,434 --> 00:21:25,874 I said when I was trying to apply the passage last week had struck them as incredibly hurtful. 300 00:21:25,934 --> 00:21:29,894 That was my fault, and I'm so glad they gave me a chance to apologise for that. 301 00:21:30,074 --> 00:21:36,945 "Let me try and say again what I hoped to say and got so badly wrong last week." I think that kind of acknowledgement 302 00:21:37,004 --> 00:21:42,094 in a sermon would achieve so many more things than simply healing one relationship with someone who's offended. 303 00:21:42,154 --> 00:21:42,419 Yes, yes. 304 00:21:42,419 --> 00:21:49,620 It would establish that this is normal—that the gospel allows us to feel secure in saying, "I really got that 305 00:21:49,620 --> 00:21:54,870 badly wrong, and I'm so sorry." So that we are an example—leaders are an example not simply of getting things 306 00:21:54,870 --> 00:22:01,110 right, but of how to get things wrong well, in a way that's shaped by the gospel, that believes Jesus died for me. 307 00:22:01,289 --> 00:22:01,830 We're okay. 308 00:22:01,830 --> 00:22:02,789 We can be friends again. 309 00:22:03,149 --> 00:22:04,830 But it was a painful thing to say, "sorry". 310 00:22:05,159 --> 00:22:09,120 It was a painful thing to acknowledge responsibility—a pain I'd be willing to bear 311 00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:13,090 because Christ is my example of bearing pain for the sake of restoring relationships. 312 00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:17,350 There's all kinds of ways in which you don't give up being a leader, because you made a mistake. 313 00:22:17,439 --> 00:22:20,379 It's an opportunity of a new kind to lead well. 314 00:22:20,534 --> 00:22:21,395 Mm mm-hmm. 315 00:22:21,395 --> 00:22:26,139 You could almost say that a leader is to be beyond reproach, but not beyond repentance. 316 00:22:26,739 --> 00:22:27,550 It's kind of— 317 00:22:27,729 --> 00:22:28,389 Absolutely. 318 00:22:28,389 --> 00:22:32,395 I mean, I was hugely helped, I think—I spoke already about the blessing of 319 00:22:32,395 --> 00:22:36,294 great Australian visitors to the UK, and Tim Keller from America would come. 320 00:22:36,294 --> 00:22:40,435 And I remember him saying, and it wasn't a new thought to him, but I remember him saying it 321 00:22:40,435 --> 00:22:43,764 and it impressed itself on me, "If you're the pastor, you've go to be the chief repenter." 322 00:22:43,945 --> 00:22:44,365 Mm. 323 00:22:44,574 --> 00:22:49,165 And that kind of turned on its head, I think, some of what I thought about being a pastor at that point. 324 00:22:49,524 --> 00:22:53,905 This is very much the point that repentance is at the heart of the Christian life. 325 00:22:53,905 --> 00:22:55,495 It's at the heart of the Christian church. 326 00:22:55,554 --> 00:22:57,774 We're called constantly to repent and believe. 327 00:22:58,209 --> 00:23:00,969 And that doesn't just mean saying, "Yeah, I haven't done everything I could 328 00:23:00,969 --> 00:23:03,370 have done this week to share the faith with my friends." That may mean that. 329 00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:07,209 It will mean all kinds of other things too, as a normal part of life. 330 00:23:07,810 --> 00:23:12,879 It's in this way that a pastor or a minister does fulfill that role of being an example to the flock— 331 00:23:12,939 --> 00:23:13,090 Yeah. 332 00:23:13,149 --> 00:23:17,110 —an example of faith and repentance, because faith and repentance, that is the Christian life. 333 00:23:17,115 --> 00:23:17,355 Yeah. 334 00:23:17,655 --> 00:23:23,655 And if you presented an example of faith and perfection, or a faith and kind of a hard exterior— 335 00:23:23,685 --> 00:23:23,895 Yeah. 336 00:23:23,895 --> 00:23:25,335 —that you never get beyond— 337 00:23:25,695 --> 00:23:25,755 Yeah. 338 00:23:25,845 --> 00:23:30,015 —it's not exemplifying the experience that we all have as Christians. 339 00:23:30,285 --> 00:23:34,425 And it kind of bridges over into talking about the Christian life, which is where I wanted to get to. 340 00:23:34,875 --> 00:23:37,035 Really you're describing the Christian life, aren't you? 341 00:23:37,215 --> 00:23:37,665 Yes. 342 00:23:37,905 --> 00:23:38,625 I think so. 343 00:23:38,985 --> 00:23:42,615 And certainly that's the way I came at it—that I needed to learn this as a Christian, 344 00:23:43,005 --> 00:23:48,340 and then learn that that was how I was a pastor and how I'm now teaching pastors. 345 00:23:48,610 --> 00:23:54,655 And I hope I'm teaching pastors, church leaders, youth leaders and so on who will embody the 346 00:23:54,655 --> 00:23:57,895 Christian life that they want the people they're teaching and training to lead themselves. 347 00:23:58,165 --> 00:24:00,415 There is no line really between the two. 348 00:24:00,504 --> 00:24:01,135 No, no. 349 00:24:01,135 --> 00:24:01,524 That's right. 350 00:24:01,645 --> 00:24:06,925 And in some ways, you can see how this does happen—that it has its versions in the Christian life in that we think to be a good 351 00:24:06,925 --> 00:24:13,014 church member, to be a good Bible study leader, to be someone who's respected in the church, I need to be someone who has it together. 352 00:24:13,075 --> 00:24:17,350 I need to be someone who's not not showing my dirty linen in public. 353 00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:22,540 I need to be that kind of person who does all the right things and does all the activities—makes me a good Christian. 354 00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:27,370 And it's quite easy to feel that way and think that way as Christians: it's a matter of performing to a certain standard. 355 00:24:27,370 --> 00:24:29,679 And so you tend to keep under wraps— 356 00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:30,159 Yes. 357 00:24:30,250 --> 00:24:32,860 —all those many aspects of yourself that aren't up to standard. 358 00:24:32,919 --> 00:24:33,340 Yes. 359 00:24:33,534 --> 00:24:36,475 And it should be said that there are lots of unhealthy ways for talking about sin. 360 00:24:36,475 --> 00:24:37,885 The goal is not just to talk about sin. 361 00:24:38,245 --> 00:24:41,784 We can talk about sin in a way that plays everybody on side and says, oh, this doesn't really matter. 362 00:24:41,815 --> 00:24:42,024 Yeah! 363 00:24:42,115 --> 00:24:45,005 We can talk about sin in a way that says, "Do you see how open and vulnerable and transparent I am?" 364 00:24:45,024 --> 00:24:45,145 Yeah! 365 00:24:45,235 --> 00:24:48,205 "Look at me. I'm brilliant at showing you what the—the mess of my heart." 366 00:24:48,655 --> 00:24:51,625 There's a good way to talk about sin, which is under Christ, under the gospel. 367 00:24:51,655 --> 00:24:57,565 If I'm preaching, I say, "It's been such a privilege to come to this passage again and find God's grace for me. I've really needed 368 00:24:57,565 --> 00:25:03,134 it this week." That's the kind of thing any Christian could say to any other Christian as they're having a cup of coffee afterwards. 369 00:25:03,225 --> 00:25:05,084 "That sermon was so helpful for me. 370 00:25:05,564 --> 00:25:07,814 I really felt," and people often say this, sometimes they—when I preach, "I 371 00:25:07,814 --> 00:25:10,185 really felt you were speaking it just for me." But they often don't say why. 372 00:25:10,455 --> 00:25:15,705 So if we could say that to each other, but—"Oh, that really touched me because I think I've been really struggling with 373 00:25:15,705 --> 00:25:23,855 being afraid of a particular situation, a particular person this week just to remember that God is so huge and kind, I don't 374 00:25:23,855 --> 00:25:28,685 need to be afraid of that. I found that really encouraging." I think that kind of conversation is the kind of conversation 375 00:25:28,685 --> 00:25:35,885 that we can all have and will be helped to have it, if it's the kind of conversation that's coming out in sermons. 376 00:25:35,885 --> 00:25:41,034 And by the way, I think, I know we want to talk about the Christian life, but Ephesians 4: one of the 377 00:25:41,034 --> 00:25:45,534 key things that a pastor-teacher should be doing is equipping the saints for this kind of conversation. 378 00:25:45,565 --> 00:25:47,215 We need to be teaching each other how to talk. 379 00:25:48,325 --> 00:25:48,625 Yeah. 380 00:25:48,625 --> 00:25:53,514 You may or may not know this, a hobby horse of mine is riding past at this point and I'm very tempted to jump on it— 381 00:25:53,514 --> 00:25:53,545 Okay. 382 00:25:53,545 --> 00:26:00,835 —and go for a really good gallop, because when you said before that the role of the pastor is not just one-to-many, but one-to-one. 383 00:26:01,135 --> 00:26:01,254 Yeah. 384 00:26:01,345 --> 00:26:06,935 The role of the congregation member is occasionally one-to-many, not so much one-to-many. 385 00:26:07,495 --> 00:26:08,754 But it's definitely one-to-one. 386 00:26:08,784 --> 00:26:09,024 Yeah. 387 00:26:09,024 --> 00:26:10,955 And one-to-two, and one-to-three, and one-to-four. 388 00:26:11,020 --> 00:26:11,310 Yeah. 389 00:26:11,814 --> 00:26:15,895 And the teaching and example that is heard in the sermon, in the ministry of leadership, and in 390 00:26:15,895 --> 00:26:22,705 particular, the framework of gospel that begins to fill our minds and shape our minds, the understanding 391 00:26:22,705 --> 00:26:26,965 of everything in light of Jesus, it starts to shape us and change us through teaching and preaching. 392 00:26:27,354 --> 00:26:29,395 That's what we bring to those conversations. 393 00:26:29,425 --> 00:26:29,814 Yes. 394 00:26:29,844 --> 00:26:33,415 When we not only admit to somebody else, "This is where I'm struggling"— 395 00:26:33,415 --> 00:26:33,715 Yeah. 396 00:26:34,179 --> 00:26:37,899 —but we apply the word of truth to the brother who's struggling— 397 00:26:37,929 --> 00:26:38,290 Yeah. 398 00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:46,510 —and who can open up to us and say, "This is what's going on" and provide—in many respects, the kind of location for the one-to-one Word 399 00:26:46,510 --> 00:26:54,909 ministry of Christians is in that everyday granular existence where we're bringing the Word to bear on what's happening here and now— 400 00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:55,030 Yes. 401 00:26:55,060 --> 00:27:00,190 —on this particular instance of struggle or of challenge or of joy or of thanksgiving or of learning. 402 00:27:00,340 --> 00:27:01,510 Yes, exactly. 403 00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:06,909 There's a huge potential for great spiritual benefit in something as ordinary as a WhatsApp group. 404 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,740 People can express their sense of bodily weakness and they often do. 405 00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:15,639 We often share prayer needs for hospital visits or whatever. 406 00:27:15,879 --> 00:27:18,490 They're always there in my group, but God cares about our bodies. 407 00:27:18,730 --> 00:27:20,800 God loves us and cares for us as whole people. 408 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:26,290 It's a good thing to be sharing and then to hear that someone is praying for that thing that you are fearful of, and praying 409 00:27:26,290 --> 00:27:31,780 that you'll know the Lord's strength and presence, and praying for healing, and praying for confidence in him, come what may. 410 00:27:32,139 --> 00:27:35,110 Those are really significant ways that we minister to each other. 411 00:27:35,705 --> 00:27:42,605 And that kind of interchange of what's really going into my life—"What am I really worried about? What am I really enjoying?"—and helping 412 00:27:42,605 --> 00:27:49,145 each other see that in a richly three-dimensional context as joy before the Lord—of here before the Lord and seeking him for help. 413 00:27:49,595 --> 00:27:51,275 That is, I think, the ordinary Christian life. 414 00:27:51,365 --> 00:27:51,875 It is. 415 00:27:51,875 --> 00:27:58,415 You're making me think of Bible study groups I've been in, and led poorly and well, and mostly poorly at different times— 416 00:27:59,105 --> 00:27:59,525 Me too. 417 00:27:59,585 --> 00:27:59,855 —in life. 418 00:27:59,855 --> 00:27:59,975 Me too. 419 00:27:59,975 --> 00:28:01,059 —in which, I don't know. 420 00:28:01,059 --> 00:28:03,489 I just feel it's so easy to fall between two stools here. 421 00:28:03,489 --> 00:28:07,149 It's so easy to have a group that is, there's all Bible— 422 00:28:07,209 --> 00:28:07,360 Mm-hmm. 423 00:28:07,719 --> 00:28:12,999 —and all learning, and almost ends up being a reprise of the sermon, but in a slightly different form. 424 00:28:13,059 --> 00:28:13,360 Yeah. 425 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:14,889 A slightly more interactive sermon. 426 00:28:14,919 --> 00:28:15,189 Yeah. 427 00:28:15,459 --> 00:28:21,124 Or it's possible to have care and share groups where it's all care and share, in a sense. 428 00:28:21,185 --> 00:28:21,245 Yeah. 429 00:28:21,245 --> 00:28:26,884 It's just mutual—it's like a mutually supportive grievance session or just a session where we just all share everything that's going wrong. 430 00:28:26,945 --> 00:28:27,185 Yeah. 431 00:28:27,245 --> 00:28:31,745 And there's no gospel or word that brings a different perspective in it, and we leave— 432 00:28:31,745 --> 00:28:31,804 Yeah. 433 00:28:32,139 --> 00:28:33,490 —with a sense of having shared something. 434 00:28:33,490 --> 00:28:35,530 That usually feels good to get something off your chest. 435 00:28:35,860 --> 00:28:35,949 Yep. 436 00:28:36,010 --> 00:28:39,010 But not left with a word that changes our perspective, perhaps. 437 00:28:39,010 --> 00:28:39,100 Right. 438 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:44,830 Or that challenges us or comforts us or in some way draws us towards either what 439 00:28:44,830 --> 00:28:49,230 Jesus says into this situation or what I can learn about myself in this situation. 440 00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:49,419 Yes. 441 00:28:49,445 --> 00:28:50,615 Why am I so upset— 442 00:28:50,615 --> 00:28:51,125 Yes. 443 00:28:51,185 --> 00:28:51,965 —about this? 444 00:28:52,020 --> 00:28:52,330 Yes. 445 00:28:52,355 --> 00:28:55,774 What is it about me that I need to learn in this situation as well? 446 00:28:55,774 --> 00:28:56,014 Yeah. 447 00:28:56,135 --> 00:29:04,655 I think it's not very hard to imagine a group where you are having Bible study, but the leader knows that they don't have to get necessarily to 448 00:29:04,655 --> 00:29:11,219 the end of question 12, and they don't have to have got every possible point that will constitute a right and excellent answer to that question. 449 00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:12,539 That's not the goal. 450 00:29:12,809 --> 00:29:19,620 The goal of the study is that something true and glorious from Scripture gets connected with the lives of the people that are studying it together. 451 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:27,479 So someone might say, "We were praying last week for the fact that your child has just started a new school. And it 452 00:29:27,479 --> 00:29:33,330 just struck me as we were reading that bit about Jesus' care for the children, that just really encouraged me, because I 453 00:29:33,330 --> 00:29:38,030 just imagined him saying something like that to your child." That's fairly rough and ready, just off the top of my head. 454 00:29:38,030 --> 00:29:43,550 But there's a kind of immediacy about actually seeing Jesus' love and care for little children and thinking, "Yeah, well, 455 00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:48,200 he's not unconcerned about what it's like for my child to go to school"—that the Scripture and the life coming together. 456 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:48,500 Yeah. 457 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,660 And there are all kinds of ways in which that boundary can be blurred in a wonderful way. 458 00:29:54,024 --> 00:29:56,635 But we'll need to help our group leaders. 459 00:29:56,725 --> 00:30:01,825 If we are leading a group, we'll need to feel enough freedom to let—it can feel a little bit 460 00:30:01,825 --> 00:30:06,865 uncomfortable because there isn't a question that leads you to have that discussion necessarily. 461 00:30:07,254 --> 00:30:09,534 But I think groups take off when that kind of thing happens. 462 00:30:09,655 --> 00:30:14,310 Leaders that feel a little bit freer, they need to spot the red herrings, because they'll still happen. 463 00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:14,580 Yeah. 464 00:30:14,584 --> 00:30:15,251 It doesn't mean you—it doesn't mean— 465 00:30:15,251 --> 00:30:17,439 It's got nothing to do with the passage, nothing to do with our lives. 466 00:30:17,459 --> 00:30:18,540 It's just a personal little— 467 00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:19,080 Yeah. 468 00:30:19,290 --> 00:30:19,620 Yeah. 469 00:30:19,739 --> 00:30:22,830 There are all kinds of skills needed in a good leader, but you've got that. 470 00:30:23,219 --> 00:30:29,159 One is the ability, you're saying, to sort of notice when a fissure is opening up in someone's life as you are having this conversation 471 00:30:29,219 --> 00:30:29,370 Yeah. 472 00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:31,169 And something's going on here. 473 00:30:31,259 --> 00:30:31,320 Yeah. 474 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,489 And is being expressed. 475 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,420 And we need to set aside getting to question 12 and just sort of wander in there together and have a talk. 476 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:37,750 Yeah. 477 00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:39,160 And see what's going on there. 478 00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:39,399 Yeah. 479 00:30:39,399 --> 00:30:41,110 Because the Word will do that. 480 00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:44,649 It will start exposing things and bringing things out in our lives. 481 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:44,740 Yeah. 482 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,350 And we'll bring things out in our lives that the Word will need to address. 483 00:30:47,410 --> 00:30:47,649 Yes. 484 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,580 Andrew, you were telling me before we started recording, you're writing something or have written something— 485 00:30:51,639 --> 00:30:51,970 Yeah. 486 00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:54,639 —in this exact space we're talking about actually, isn't it? 487 00:30:54,639 --> 00:30:57,730 About Bible studies, Christian leadership, how we do things a little bit differently. 488 00:30:58,009 --> 00:31:05,479 Yeah, so my main project for study leave has been trying to get to a fuller sense of completion a short course that I'm writing 489 00:31:05,479 --> 00:31:14,749 with church small groups in mind that will help the group think about the possibilities that exist in Christian conversation. 490 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:20,300 The Bible has such amazingly encouraging things to say about the power that God has given the words Christians say to each other. 491 00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:23,689 Your words to me will stop my heart being hardened. 492 00:31:24,054 --> 00:31:27,834 Your words to me will help me keep going until Jesus comes back. 493 00:31:27,864 --> 00:31:30,534 And I need to hear words from you today, according to Hebrew's 10. 494 00:31:30,715 --> 00:31:30,864 Yes. 495 00:31:30,864 --> 00:31:34,344 I need to hear words from you today according to Hebrews 3 to stop my heart being hardened. 496 00:31:34,524 --> 00:31:38,155 That's an amazing power that you have—that every Christian has in each other's life. 497 00:31:38,544 --> 00:31:46,324 So excited by that power and shaped by the humility that we're all in need in just the same way, we can learn to 498 00:31:46,324 --> 00:31:53,554 get a little bit deeper in talking well about the suffering in one another's lives and about how God is our refuge. 499 00:31:53,584 --> 00:31:54,514 God meets us. 500 00:31:54,634 --> 00:31:55,715 God strengthens us. 501 00:31:55,715 --> 00:31:56,705 God holds us. 502 00:31:56,735 --> 00:31:57,754 God refines us. 503 00:31:58,264 --> 00:32:05,914 And the sin that is an ongoing reality in all of our lives, God redeems us, God transforms us, God saves us. 504 00:32:05,914 --> 00:32:09,610 And those are huge ideas, and we can feel totally disqualified. 505 00:32:09,610 --> 00:32:14,800 But actually, if you break it down, we can begin to take little steps forward in having conversations 506 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:20,770 that are meaningful, life-giving, Spirit-enabled ordinary conversations between Christians. 507 00:32:20,770 --> 00:32:24,430 And the course is aiming to give groups a little experience of taking a step or two on in that. 508 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,850 That sounds like something very much worth investigating. 509 00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:29,945 It's just at the manuscript submitted to publisher kind of stage? 510 00:32:29,945 --> 00:32:30,185 Yeah. 511 00:32:30,415 --> 00:32:31,390 It's a little way away. 512 00:32:31,450 --> 00:32:31,990 Little way away. 513 00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:33,129 And you don't have a title yet? 514 00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:34,610 Don't have a title yet, no. 515 00:32:34,639 --> 00:32:38,729 I've got a couple of very bad titles, but I'm hoping the marketing department's going to sort that out. 516 00:32:38,929 --> 00:32:45,080 Well, dear listener, look out for Andrew Nicholls—Andrew Nicholls's little course on small groups and how to 517 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,479 do better at digging deeper into one another's lives, encouraging each other through the Bible in small groups. 518 00:32:50,509 --> 00:32:50,659 Yeah. 519 00:32:50,899 --> 00:32:53,029 Sounds like a much-needed and really valuable thing, Andrew. 520 00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:53,959 I'm certainly looking forward to it. 521 00:32:53,959 --> 00:32:55,879 It'll come out probably several months time. 522 00:32:55,879 --> 00:32:56,810 But keep an eye out for that. 523 00:32:56,810 --> 00:32:58,820 I think Good Book Company in the UK are publishing that. 524 00:32:58,909 --> 00:32:59,060 Yeah. 525 00:32:59,340 --> 00:33:00,080 Our good friends. 526 00:33:00,439 --> 00:33:03,229 Keep an eye out for that sometime, probably later this year. 527 00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:05,879 Andrew, thanks so much for talking with us about this. 528 00:33:05,879 --> 00:33:09,480 We started talking about ministry and your role and what you're learning, and ended up talking about, 529 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,560 really, the nature of the Christian life and our encouragement of each other, which is wonderful. 530 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,470 Thanks so much for being with us on the Centre for Christian Living Podcast. 531 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:17,040 It's a great pleasure. 532 00:33:32,175 --> 00:33:37,050 Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College. 533 00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:41,940 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website. 534 00:33:41,940 --> 00:33:51,120 That's ccl.moore.edu.au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all 535 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:57,724 the way back to 2017, videos from our live events, and articles that we've published through the Centre. 536 00:33:57,995 --> 00:34:01,695 And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a 537 00:34:01,715 --> 00:34:06,544 tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 538 00:34:07,175 --> 00:34:14,794 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources. 539 00:34:15,424 --> 00:34:19,955 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 540 00:34:19,955 --> 00:34:21,004 Please get in touch. 541 00:34:21,304 --> 00:34:26,704 You can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au. 542 00:34:26,855 --> 00:34:32,609 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and 543 00:34:32,705 --> 00:34:40,124 editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week. 544 00:34:40,184 --> 00:34:41,024 Thank you for listening. 545 00:34:41,504 --> 00:34:42,344 I'm Tony Payne. 546 00:34:42,734 --> 00:34:43,184 'Bye for now.