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Have you ever had one of those moments of self-awareness when some relationship or perhaps some conversation has just gone

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badly, and for some reason, you stop and you start to think, "Why did that just happen?" And most particularly, "What did I do?

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What did I bring?

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What attitudes, what behaviours, what underlying thoughts did I bring to that conversation that contributed to what just happened?"

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Now, if you've ever managed to do that and you've thought to yourself, "I really should, perhaps, do that more

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often and more thoughtfully," then today's conversation on the Centre for Christian Living podcast is for you.

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And if you've never stopped to think about yourself and your thought patterns or your behaviours, then this conversation is even more for you.

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It's about healthy self-reflection.

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That's our topic on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast.

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Well, hello again.

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Welcome to another episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast.

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I'm Tony Payne.

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Great to have you with us again.

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And here at the CCL Podcast, as you probably know, our tagline is "bringing Biblical ethics to everyday issues".

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And that's what we do here every episode—is try and bring something of what the Bible says about God

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and us and the world and everything to the issues that we face as Christian people in God's world.

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And we are very glad to be sponsored and funded and everything else by Moore College,

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which is where I'm speaking to you—from an interview room here at Moore College in Sydney.

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And sitting across the uh, desk from me at the other microphone is Caroline Spencer.

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Hello, Caroline!

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Hi, Tony.

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It's nice to see you again.

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I've known Caroline for a long time, although we haven't spoken as much in recent times.

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And so, partly to remind me of all the things you're currently doing and to

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tell our listeners, tell us about who you are and what you're currently up to.

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Hmm.

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Thanks Tony.

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Yes.

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I have one job.

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Actually, no, I've got three jobs, but you'd probably define it as one job, one side hustle, and one side hustle on the side hustle.

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Okay.

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So the one job is I work four days a week at city Bible Forum as an evangelist, a mentor, a trainer; I work

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one day a week at my local church as an Associate Pastor; and then I also run a pastoral supervision business.

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So pastoral supervision helps ministry workers reflect on their practice to get better

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at it for their sake, but also for the sake of the people that they seek to serve.

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Oh, that's interesting.

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So it's perhaps in connection with that final side side hustle of yours that we're talking about a book

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that you've written that's recently been published by Matthias Media called "Getting Over Yourself".

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I love this title.

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I'll come back to that.

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"Getting Over Yourself: Developing a healthy self-reflection habit to serve those

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around you." So in your supervision work, I guess that's partly what you are doing.

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Mm.

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But the origins of the book go back further than that.

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Tell us how you came to write this book.

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Yes.

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I can answer that from, I guess, two perspectives.

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The first is, how did I get into reflection?

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And then the second bit is, how did the book come about?

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Right.

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So if we start with my own journey in self-reflection, I'd have to say that I'm not naturally self-reflective.

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Me neither.

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Until, until I had to learn to be, basically.

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And I had a few challenging work experiences, and it took me a while to actually reflect, because I was

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a bit scared of what I would discover about myself—that there was something really, really wrong with me.

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Right.

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But it got to the point where I was quite stuck in my head.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, I ended up seeing a psychologist.

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And that was really helpful to get me out of my head and to be able to get into a better head space.

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And what I learned as I reflect back on that experience is just how complex life and relationships are.

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Mm-hmm.

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Even when we've got really good intentions and my heart's desire is to be more like Jesus, but it's complicated.

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Things are messy, aren't they?

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They are.

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And the other thing I realised is that when I'm worried or disturbed or stressed

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or anxious about something, my thinking process isn't necessarily that great.

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I don't think as clearly as I could.

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And so, it got me curious about how do I think better?

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Yeah.

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And thinking better developed into, okay, what does a healthy self-reflection habit look like?

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So initially it started because of my own wellbeing and resilience.

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Mm-hmm.

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But it very quickly became an opportunity that I could see to learn about myself and how I could grow and change and be more like Jesus.

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So that was happening for me in my personal life.

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And then I had an opportunity to work with one of the lecturers here at Moore College as they

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introduced a subject for the students—a new one called "Intentional Ministry Reflection".

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Yeah.

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So working with him, setting that subject up, and then he very kindly gave me the opportunity to write the textbook.

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I wanted to write a textbook that wasn't this academic book that would just stay dusty on someone's shelf.

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I wanted to write a book that people would use and find really helpful.

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Not to say that academic books aren't helpful!

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I think I wanted to write one that was quite practical.

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And so that's the book that's actually been published now.

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I think you've succeeded.

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It certainly doesn't read like a dry, dusty tome at all.

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And although, as you say, the genesis of the book is helping people training for ministry to think about themselves better—to think better about

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their reactions to things, think better about how they deal with things and so on, and we'll talk about this in a second, I suspect that as we go on

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and talk about what the book's about and how it models this process, I think our listeners will find that it's a very universally applicable model.

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It's not just for people in ministry.

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But we'll come back to that a little bit later.

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Let's start at the basic level.

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You've already kind of started to flesh this out, but I'll ask the obvious question.

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What do you mean by self-reflection?

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Yes, that's a really good question.

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It makes me realise how we have definitions in our own heads.

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Yeah.

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And it's only once we actually unpack what they are —yeah.

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So when I talk about self-reflection, I'm not saying those thoughts that we have: "Oh, what just happened

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there?" I'm talking about an activity that is deliberate and structured and disciplined, where we reflect on a

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past experience or an ongoing experience, and we are looking, I guess you could say, for opportunities to grow.

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And when we see those opportunities—when we change, put those things into practice—we can actually live life

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more in tune with our principles and values, which, for me as a follower of Jesus, is to be more like him.

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Mm mm. So the sceptical response, I guess, to self-reflection and especially people who aren't particularly reflective, who just like to get on

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with life is, "Well, surely this is kind of a bit navel-gazey. Can't we just get on with things, learn from our mistakes, and not get involved

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in too much kind of trawling over our emotions?" Like, how do you respond to that kind of sceptical reaction to the idea of self-reflection?

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Yes.

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It's interesting.

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I think that's the pushback—

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Yeah.

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—that I hear the most.

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And it's phrased as "Isn't self-reflection just self-absorption?"

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Yeah.

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It's a really good question.

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"Oh, you're supposed to think about other people, not ourselves."

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Yeah.

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And as I've thought about it, when we ruminate—and I'll explain what that is in a minute—

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Mm-hmm

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—that's when we're self-absorbed.

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Mm.

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So a healthy self-reflection practice actually avoids rumination.

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So rumination is when we get into that negative head space when we go over and over our thinking in a kind of a downward spiral.

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It's a "Woe is me"—

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I'm really stewing over it.

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Stuck in our heads.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's when we can become quite self-absorbed, and that's not good.

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No.

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In fact, if you reflect and you end up ruminating, that's actually worse for you than if you'd done no reflection at all.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So that isn't self-reflection, just self-absorption.

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I'd say actually, yeah, it is: it's a real danger.

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Mm.

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But

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That's unhealthy self-reflection.

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Exactly.

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You are talking about—

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Yeah.

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—healthy self.

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Healthy self-reflection is a conscious thinking process that has safeguards to prevent rumination or to short circuit rumination.

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Mm, good.

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Good.

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Bible-wise, biblically speaking, how have you kind of located or thought about

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this whole process with respect to what the Bible says about us and ourselves?

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Have you kind of lodged this or seen some biblical ideas that have helped you think about it?

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Yeah.

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I'm just thinking about passages like Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3, which are passages that say, "Don't be like this."

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Yes.

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"Put off this."

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Yes.

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"And put on this." So get rid of anger and malice and bitterness.

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Put on kindness and compassion, things like that.

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And I guess I'm making an assumption that to be able to do those things—to change

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in that way—requires some sort of self-awareness, some sort of self-insight.

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You would've thought so.

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Yeah, like I'm getting bitter, you know.

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There's a root of bitterness growing in me.

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I need to do something about that.

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Oh, I was just angry then.

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Yeah.

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Why was I angry then?

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I shouldn't be angry then, but I was angry then.

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Yes.

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Soon as we asked that question, "Why was I angry then? That wasn't good," you're starting to reflect.

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Yes.

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And you can do that in a good way or a bad way.

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Yeah.

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Like in those passages—it's interesting, in those passages, in one sense,

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Colossians says, "Set your hearts and minds above." So set your mind on Christ.

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The consequence of realising who we are in Jesus and the extraordinary privilege of being united with him, a whole new life

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with him—all those things—that should lead you to actually then consider your earthly life and how different it needs to be.

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Mm.

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So the "therefore" in Colossians 3 is because there's a whole new possibility and life that you now live, therefore, well, how are you living now?

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Yes.

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And it's impossible to put that into practice without considering yourself and saying, "I

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really need to put to death the impatience that I seem to display all the time. Why is that?"

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Yes.

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It's interesting.

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I read those passages and I kind of go, "Yeah, okay, that's straightforward. Yeah." But life is complex and I'm complex.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Like I can share an example of frustration, for example.

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Yeah.

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Which frustration, anger, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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Kind of heading down that same trajectory.

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I was in a conversation with my brother and he was telling me about his new girlfriend.

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And so my question was, "So what have you learned from your previous relationship that you're going to take into this new one?"

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Mm-hmm.

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Which, you know, fairly decent question to ask.

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But very soon, it became a, "Yeah, but have you thought about this? And what about this?" And so I could sense that I was getting a bit frustrated.

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And it's fascinating: I'm the older sister,

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Right.

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I think I should tell my younger brother how to live his life.

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That's your job.

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After all, you're an older sister!

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Yeah.

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And it's come from a family pattern.

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Yeah.

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And so, I find it quite challenging to show up differently in conversations with my brother.

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I know that I shouldn't, you know, frustration, anger—

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Bossing him around and trying to tell him what to do.

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Yeah.

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But it's funny how my mind runs in that rut and I just start doing it.

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Why am I doing that?

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That part of me I'd like to put to death and put on a different kind of thing.

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Yes.

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Because I don't want to be frustrated.

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It's not good for him and it's not good for him, is it.

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Not good for me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, excellent.

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It also makes me think of passages in the Bible that talk about testing yourself—examining yourself.

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I read your book and I was thinking about it.

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Made me think of that old Martyn Lloyd-Jones quote, and I went and chased it up, because I couldn't quite get it right.

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He says in his book on spiritual depression, "Have you realised that most of your unhappiness in life is due to the fact that you are

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listening to yourself instead of talking to yourself?" And he goes on to quote the psalmist, who says, "Why aren't thou downcast, oh my soul?

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Instead, you should turn to God."

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There's a presupposition there that we are aware of ourselves and we reflect back on ourselves and say, "Why am I like this, Oh my soul? Something's

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wrong here. I should be directing somewhere else." So the sense of healthy self-awareness, I think, is there in a number of places in Scripture.

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So this is not just a bit of modern pop psychology psychobabble, after all; it's what the Bible prompts us to do in thinking about ourselves.

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Mm-hmm.

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So if we're happy that healthy self-reflection is a good thing—examining and thinking about your responses

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and so on—you've come up, as you said, with a process, or you've tried to think through "What would be a

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healthy, structured way of doing that that doesn't get stuck in self-absorption?" Tell us briefly what that is.

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What is that structured kind of way of thinking or process?

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Yeah, so in the model, and the book is mostly just the model—

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Right.

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—with some examples to show you what it means, there are four steps.

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The first is describing what's happened.

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Right.

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So that's kind of zooming in on your experience and then zooming out.

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What can I learn here?

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And the idea is to keep it really concrete, because the more concrete it is, the less chance of rumination.

235
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So who said what and when?

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What did I feel?

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What was the emotion?

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Mm.

239
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Things like that.

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It's observing closely what actually happened.

241
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Yes.

242
00:13:38,579 --> 00:13:39,300
And thinking about that.

243
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Yeah.

244
00:13:39,869 --> 00:13:42,000
Yeah, almost like a video frame by frame.

245
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Yeah, yeah.

246
00:13:42,540 --> 00:13:42,660
Okay.

247
00:13:42,719 --> 00:13:48,270
Which sounds like a lot of work, but slowing our thinking process down is actually really helpful.

248
00:13:48,824 --> 00:13:49,995
So that's the first step.

249
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The second step is explore, and that's all about thinking a bit more what was going on for you.

250
00:13:57,135 --> 00:13:57,375
Right.

251
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Yeah.

252
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So there are some helpful questions in the model to ask yourself.

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What was important to me here?

254
00:14:03,074 --> 00:14:05,535
What have I assumed about the other parties?

255
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Is there something about me that would make relating to me harder?

256
00:14:10,995 --> 00:14:17,625
Just things like that to try and give us a little bit of a different perspective, a little bit of a different lens.

257
00:14:17,715 --> 00:14:17,895
Mm-hmm.

258
00:14:17,895 --> 00:14:24,405
And also because at the end of the day, we're responsible for our own lives and we can only change ourselves.

259
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So there's describing and observing what actually happened.

260
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Yep.

261
00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:34,530
Then exploring kind of what was going on in my head and heart when that was happening—trying to think about that.

262
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Mm-hmm.

263
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,330
And then there's Step 3, which is?

264
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Step 3 is assess.

265
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So you are looking at opportunities for growth.

266
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If that's what happened, and you've got a sense of what was going on for you, it's, like, well, where is the opportunity for growth here?

267
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And Scripture, the Bible, would be our benchmark for that, 'cause the Bible tells us how God wants us to be in relationships.

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The last bit of that step is to see the good, because when we see the good, that's what stops us from ruminating.

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So for example, we might go, "Oh, God wants me to be like this, and I was like that

270
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and therefore, you know, I feel really flat and deflated. I'm a failure" kind of thing.

271
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Yeah, yeah.

272
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Which is very ruminate-y.

273
00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:18,590
Yep.

274
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:19,330
If that's a word.

275
00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:19,420
Yeah.

276
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Rumination.

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Seeing the good is not about what was good in me or what I've done, but seeing the goodness and graciousness of God, because we live in his world.

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He's in control, he cares, and he's committed to making us more like Jesus.

279
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So there will be good that we can see.

280
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And so, seeing the good is what short-circuits rumination.

281
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:51,285
Do you mean seeing the good in the sense of here's something I can work towards, or there's some good to take action towards?

282
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There's some good to retrieve from this situation I was in.

283
00:15:54,975 --> 00:15:55,815
Is that this whole thing you mean?

284
00:15:55,815 --> 00:15:55,875
Yeah.

285
00:15:55,875 --> 00:15:56,235
All those things.

286
00:15:56,235 --> 00:15:58,605
And I can give an example in a little bit.

287
00:15:58,695 --> 00:15:58,725
Okay.

288
00:15:58,935 --> 00:15:59,145
Right.

289
00:15:59,145 --> 00:15:59,835
But I'll just finish—

290
00:15:59,835 --> 00:16:00,645
Finish the process.

291
00:16:00,675 --> 00:16:00,735
Okay.

292
00:16:00,735 --> 00:16:01,725
Yeah, finish the process.

293
00:16:01,965 --> 00:16:05,685
So the fourth step is enact: what do we want to put into practice?

294
00:16:05,985 --> 00:16:06,105
Right.

295
00:16:06,375 --> 00:16:16,725
Because self-reflection, it's not just about growing in your self-awareness, arriving at some self-insight; it actually should lead to change.

296
00:16:17,025 --> 00:16:21,165
So the enact stage is, "Well, what am I going to do differently moving forward?

297
00:16:21,435 --> 00:16:26,625
What do I need to do to finish this experience?" Well, that sort of thing.

298
00:16:26,770 --> 00:16:27,734
Okay, that makes sense to me.

299
00:16:27,734 --> 00:16:34,994
So instead of getting stuck in a spiral of self-absorption, you come out of that—of exploring what's going on for you—into, okay, what can change?

300
00:16:34,994 --> 00:16:36,135
What are the possibilities?

301
00:16:36,525 --> 00:16:38,535
And then what do I need to actually do to make some progress?

302
00:17:05,575 --> 00:17:11,605
Since New Testament times, some of those motivated with a passion for sharing the good news of Jesus have

303
00:17:11,605 --> 00:17:18,460
embraced ministry in very hard places, struggling with stony ground and with little or no obvious gospel fruit.

304
00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:25,629
For hundreds of years, and in many places around the world, this has also been the experience of some cross-cultural mission workers.

305
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:27,579
But what does God think?

306
00:17:28,030 --> 00:17:34,870
Whether in a local church or in a missionary location, how does someone decide between struggling on faithfully, despite the lack of

307
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:42,310
visible gospel fruit, or moving to more fertile ground where God's Spirit is more obviously working and where fruit is more available?

308
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:50,129
To help us think through these types of questions, join us for our next Centre for Global Mission event, when Richard Chin, National

309
00:17:50,129 --> 00:17:57,270
Director of the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students, will help us examine the Bible and David Williams, Director of Training

310
00:17:57,270 --> 00:18:03,719
and Development at the Church Missionary Society Australia, will give us insights from the history and practice of global mission.

311
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Find out more and register on the Moore College website: that's moore—M-O-O-R-E— edu au.

312
00:18:12,179 --> 00:18:14,580
That's moore.edu.au.

313
00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:17,100
And now, let's get back to our program.

314
00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:21,389
Now in the book, as part of the process, and I think it's in the third stage, you talk about

315
00:18:21,389 --> 00:18:25,830
personal values and I found that a very interesting concept, the way you tease that out.

316
00:18:26,159 --> 00:18:26,250
Mm-hmm.

317
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,840
Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

318
00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:27,945
Yeah.

319
00:18:28,830 --> 00:18:29,639
Yeah, it's interesting.

320
00:18:29,639 --> 00:18:33,629
So personal values are what's important to you.

321
00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:38,450
And the secular world uses them in self-reflection.

322
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,405
'Cause the idea is you want to live life in tune with your values.

323
00:18:42,405 --> 00:18:42,780
With your values.

324
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:42,840
Yeah.

325
00:18:43,230 --> 00:18:45,030
So you work out what's important to you.

326
00:18:45,090 --> 00:18:45,960
What do I value?

327
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:46,140
And then—

328
00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:48,120
Yes, because it can differ person to person.

329
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:48,510
Exactly.

330
00:18:48,690 --> 00:18:49,110
Yeah.

331
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:52,710
So I was thinking actually that could be quite useful.

332
00:18:52,920 --> 00:19:01,700
If I'm trying to think about what's important to me when I'm exploring what's going on for me, thinking a bit further about that can

333
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:09,960
be really helpful, because then I can go, "Okay, that's something about me and it's obviously important to me, driving my behaviour."

334
00:19:09,980 --> 00:19:10,100
Yeah.

335
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:15,875
And what should that look like if it was biblically shaped—

336
00:19:15,995 --> 00:19:16,175
Right

337
00:19:16,175 --> 00:19:17,015
— and informed.

338
00:19:17,075 --> 00:19:19,295
So not just personal, but biblical as a value.

339
00:19:19,450 --> 00:19:19,740
Yeah.

340
00:19:19,865 --> 00:19:20,435
Yeah.

341
00:19:20,615 --> 00:19:30,215
So personal values, there could be a whole range of different things, and I can give you an example of what that would look like, if you want.

342
00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:30,380
Yes.

343
00:19:30,485 --> 00:19:34,325
And in the context of how I avoided some rumination.

344
00:19:34,475 --> 00:19:34,505
Okay.

345
00:19:34,505 --> 00:19:34,685
Right.

346
00:19:35,285 --> 00:19:41,075
So it was interesting, one Sunday afternoon, I found myself quite deflated.

347
00:19:41,475 --> 00:19:46,125
I'd been to a church meeting a couple of hours before, and I kept stewing on it,

348
00:19:46,245 --> 00:19:46,514
Right.

349
00:19:46,995 --> 00:19:50,745
And then I thought, "Oh, oh, oh, I know what I need to do.

350
00:19:50,925 --> 00:19:52,035
I'm ruminating.

351
00:19:52,155 --> 00:19:53,655
I'm heading towards that.

352
00:19:54,014 --> 00:20:01,095
I need to stop and see the good." And so I reflected a bit more, and I worked out that I was

353
00:20:01,095 --> 00:20:07,514
feeling deflated because someone in that group had misunderstood my position on something.

354
00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:09,780
That doesn't sound that significant.

355
00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:10,740
So they misunderstood.

356
00:20:11,159 --> 00:20:11,429
I know.

357
00:20:11,699 --> 00:20:12,629
But for me—

358
00:20:12,659 --> 00:20:13,110
Yes.

359
00:20:13,169 --> 00:20:14,730
—I value clarity—

360
00:20:14,735 --> 00:20:15,014
Mm-hmm.

361
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:16,139
—and being understood.

362
00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:17,010
Mm.

363
00:20:17,189 --> 00:20:24,030
And so that was actually causing me to go into a little bit of a negative downward spiral.

364
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:31,649
Because that expectation and quite strong personal value, in a sense—what you really—that had been frustrated in that circumstance.

365
00:20:31,649 --> 00:20:31,860
Yeah.

366
00:20:31,919 --> 00:20:32,699
Yeah.

367
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:39,149
And so, then I was actually able to stop and think, "Okay, where is the good?" So I stopped and I thought, and I thought, "Actually,

368
00:20:39,149 --> 00:20:47,610
if I think back on that meeting, no: not everyone misunderstood my position." I thought, "Well, that was God's kindness." You know?

369
00:20:47,610 --> 00:20:48,960
There were people there that understood me.

370
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,514
Amazingly, people understood me.

371
00:20:50,670 --> 00:20:51,300
Yeah, that's right.

372
00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:56,159
The other thing I realised was that, actually, this is a really good learning opportunity

373
00:20:56,159 --> 00:21:05,284
for me, because it's helping me to see how important clarity and being understood is to me.

374
00:21:05,495 --> 00:21:08,735
Now, those things are really good when it comes to serving others.

375
00:21:09,064 --> 00:21:12,905
If I'm clear and I'm understood, that's actually a way I can serve others.

376
00:21:13,294 --> 00:21:20,615
But it can also be something that turns a bit inward into me and starts to be a measure of how I value myself.

377
00:21:21,365 --> 00:21:23,885
And that's actually what was happening in this—

378
00:21:23,975 --> 00:21:24,906
In a sense, you're saying you—

379
00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:25,350
— situation.

380
00:21:25,355 --> 00:21:30,185
—you can overvalue that thing, and it becomes a bit dysfunctional as a result.

381
00:21:30,215 --> 00:21:30,305
Yes.

382
00:21:30,305 --> 00:21:31,625
Looms too large in your mind.

383
00:21:31,655 --> 00:21:32,045
Yeah.

384
00:21:32,135 --> 00:21:37,775
And so when that gets frustrated, as it inevitably will, because the world as we know is full of idiots who won't understand you, you know?

385
00:21:39,425 --> 00:21:39,785
True.

386
00:21:40,060 --> 00:21:43,210
You could—well, true, but maybe I'm exposing some of my personal ideas there.

387
00:21:43,650 --> 00:21:48,715
But being able to reflect and identify that about me: "Hey, it's interesting. That really matters to me."

388
00:21:48,955 --> 00:21:49,495
Yes.

389
00:21:49,495 --> 00:21:51,625
"Hmm, maybe matters to me almost too much."

390
00:21:51,655 --> 00:21:51,985
Yes.

391
00:21:52,015 --> 00:21:59,665
And I need to sort of step out of that a little bit and think how could I rethink that whole situation and maybe not be quite so bothered about it?

392
00:21:59,905 --> 00:22:00,625
Yes.

393
00:22:00,895 --> 00:22:02,765
And then the third bit I realised—

394
00:22:02,785 --> 00:22:02,875
Yeah.

395
00:22:02,875 --> 00:22:11,180
—as I was thinking about that is, see, I automatically went, "Oh, my failure." My failure was this one person that misunderstood my position.

396
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:11,510
Yeah.

397
00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:13,460
Actually, that wasn't my failure.

398
00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:27,710
My failure to call it a failure was actually using clarity and being understood as a measure of my value, rather than finding that in Jesus.

399
00:22:27,890 --> 00:22:29,780
That's actually what I needed to repent of.

400
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:32,730
And so, being able to kind of repent of that—

401
00:22:32,735 --> 00:22:33,540
That was my mistake.

402
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:34,620
Yeah.

403
00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:35,640
Not the fact—not that I wasn't—

404
00:22:35,790 --> 00:22:36,030
Understood.

405
00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:38,160
—supremely understood by every single person in the room.

406
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:38,760
Yeah.

407
00:22:38,765 --> 00:22:38,835
Yeah.

408
00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:40,230
So that was really helpful.

409
00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:40,320
Yeah.

410
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,395
And I was able to then move on, 'cause God's grace is big enough to hold that failure.

411
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:52,970
That's really interesting, Caroline, and I found as I looked through the book, at the back of it, there's an appendix, I think, or an extra

412
00:22:52,970 --> 00:23:00,020
section; I don't know if it's actually an appendix, but a later section where you listen a whole lot of these kinds of personal values.

413
00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:01,460
I found that quite striking.

414
00:23:01,460 --> 00:23:02,480
There was lots of them.

415
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,545
Nearly all of them are things you say in and of themselves potentially quite a good thing.

416
00:23:06,785 --> 00:23:06,865
Hmm.

417
00:23:07,100 --> 00:23:08,330
Things that are worth valuing.

418
00:23:08,390 --> 00:23:09,050
Yeah.

419
00:23:09,050 --> 00:23:13,754
But interesting how, if there are some of them—just because we're different people with different backgrounds, we've been

420
00:23:13,754 --> 00:23:19,905
shaped in different ways—some of them really loom large for us and are very important to us, perhaps too important to us.

421
00:23:20,084 --> 00:23:20,115
Mm.

422
00:23:20,385 --> 00:23:27,715
So that kind of inventory of the kinds of things you might find that, in your own sense of who you are, you value maybe too highly—

423
00:23:27,745 --> 00:23:27,774
Mm.

424
00:23:28,195 --> 00:23:30,685
— I thought that almost to me was worth the price of the book.

425
00:23:31,075 --> 00:23:37,254
I actually, I was given a free sample copy, so it was worth a lot more than the price of the book, because that was really useful.

426
00:23:37,254 --> 00:23:37,284
Mm.

427
00:23:37,375 --> 00:23:37,615
Okay.

428
00:23:37,615 --> 00:23:39,565
I understand what you're saying about personal values.

429
00:23:40,014 --> 00:23:46,855
This is all very good, and I can see how in training people for ministry, this would be hugely important, right?

430
00:23:46,915 --> 00:23:47,485
Yeah.

431
00:23:48,220 --> 00:23:53,560
How is it particularly applicable and important when you were sort of working with trainee ministers in that Moore College course?

432
00:23:53,620 --> 00:23:54,040
Yeah.

433
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:55,450
How is it helpful there, do you think?

434
00:23:55,750 --> 00:24:01,030
Well, I just think self-awareness is really important for leadership.

435
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,639
The more self-aware you are, the better.

436
00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:08,925
But I also think actually, no; it's good for all relationships.

437
00:24:09,345 --> 00:24:17,145
Whether or not you're a leader, having self-awareness, and by that, I mean self-insight and also self-management,

438
00:24:17,175 --> 00:24:21,795
'cause it's not about knowing something about yourself; it's actually about putting those insights into—

439
00:24:21,795 --> 00:24:22,185
It finishes—

440
00:24:22,185 --> 00:24:22,545
Practice.

441
00:24:22,545 --> 00:24:24,015
It finishes in enact, doesn't it?

442
00:24:24,015 --> 00:24:25,785
That's the fourth stage: making change.

443
00:24:25,785 --> 00:24:26,055
Yes.

444
00:24:26,085 --> 00:24:26,685
Yeah.

445
00:24:26,895 --> 00:24:32,585
That—that is really good for us and for our relationships and helps us to be more

446
00:24:32,585 --> 00:24:38,014
like Jesus, and gives more space for other people to grow and be more like Jesus.

447
00:24:38,014 --> 00:24:38,885
It's so true, isn't it?

448
00:24:38,885 --> 00:24:42,215
When you think back about the different leaders, whether in a secular context or any sort of leadership

449
00:24:42,215 --> 00:24:47,125
context, or in a Christian leadership context, the leader that does lack that self-awareness—it's

450
00:24:47,865 --> 00:24:52,695
not even so much that it's unforgivable for a leader to make a mistake, because we all make mistakes.

451
00:24:52,845 --> 00:24:52,905
Yeah.

452
00:24:52,995 --> 00:24:57,225
Or to behave poorly, or to get frustrated, or to misread a situation, or whatever it might be.

453
00:24:57,284 --> 00:24:58,245
All leaders will do that.

454
00:24:58,815 --> 00:25:06,284
But where there's a lack of an ability to self-reflect and think about and acknowledge and come to understand that you've made a mistake here or

455
00:25:06,284 --> 00:25:12,565
that you haven't understood, where there's that lack of awareness, it kind of takes the whole thing to a different level of dysfunction, doesn't it?

456
00:25:12,565 --> 00:25:12,625
Yeah.

457
00:25:12,625 --> 00:25:14,185
'Cause it's so hard to know what to do next.

458
00:25:14,185 --> 00:25:14,665
Yeah.

459
00:25:14,905 --> 00:25:18,535
It was interesting, I was talking to someone at church, and they work in the corporate world.

460
00:25:18,535 --> 00:25:18,625
Right.

461
00:25:18,625 --> 00:25:23,845
And they were talking about someone they'd come across with a leader quite high up.

462
00:25:23,905 --> 00:25:32,385
And in meetings, what he'd do is he'd go, "Okay, this is my position on something. Blah. Okay, what does everyone else think?" Right?

463
00:25:32,385 --> 00:25:32,505
Yeah.

464
00:25:32,505 --> 00:25:38,835
And he had no self-awareness that that shut down any legitimate thinking.

465
00:25:38,895 --> 00:25:40,395
'Cause you're not going to take on—

466
00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:41,925
— the CEO, the big boss.

467
00:25:42,135 --> 00:25:42,375
Yeah.

468
00:25:42,380 --> 00:25:42,630
Yeah.

469
00:25:42,855 --> 00:25:49,275
It's kind—put like that, it's just very bad leadership, 'cause you want a team to contribute.

470
00:25:49,305 --> 00:25:49,335
Mm.

471
00:25:49,335 --> 00:25:53,295
And he probably—if you asked him, he'd probably say, "Yeah, of course I want my team to contribute.

472
00:25:53,295 --> 00:25:53,925
But they're hopeless.

473
00:25:53,925 --> 00:25:54,975
They never contribute anything.

474
00:25:55,095 --> 00:25:56,355
They just—I'm so frustrated.

475
00:25:56,985 --> 00:26:02,265
I give them an opportunity to speak, and they just nod and agree with me, and there's never any robust discussion.

476
00:26:02,265 --> 00:26:06,345
What on earth's wrong with them?" But if he'd healthily self-reflected, he might

477
00:26:06,345 --> 00:26:09,675
think, "Actually, maybe the problem is with me and how I'm setting things up."

478
00:26:09,735 --> 00:26:09,915
Yeah.

479
00:26:10,365 --> 00:26:10,695
Indeed.

480
00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:14,055
And you can see in leadership, that's so important—this kind of self-awareness.

481
00:26:14,505 --> 00:26:17,085
Where do you think it lands in everyday life for us as Christians?

482
00:26:17,115 --> 00:26:23,385
What are the kind of spheres or situations in which this kind of healthy self-reflection is really valuable?

483
00:26:23,445 --> 00:26:23,985
Yeah.

484
00:26:24,679 --> 00:26:27,439
It's good to self-reflect on something that bothers you.

485
00:26:27,530 --> 00:26:27,800
Yeah.

486
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:28,070
Right.

487
00:26:28,135 --> 00:26:28,794
So that could—

488
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:36,709
So dear listener, if there's anything in your life at any point that is bothering you, and I can guarantee there is, this is why this is useful.

489
00:26:36,709 --> 00:26:36,860
Yeah.

490
00:26:36,860 --> 00:26:37,459
But sorry, go on.

491
00:26:37,459 --> 00:26:38,810
Yeah, well that's what I was going to say.

492
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:44,090
And "bother" might be you're worried or you're upset about something, you're anxious.

493
00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:47,240
Could be a whole range of intensity.

494
00:26:47,389 --> 00:26:49,909
But yeah, I just think of it as something that bothers me.

495
00:26:49,970 --> 00:26:51,110
Yeah, that's a good way to think about it.

496
00:26:51,525 --> 00:26:53,235
And we all experience that so much.

497
00:26:53,265 --> 00:26:53,295
Mm.

498
00:26:53,835 --> 00:26:59,505
And you probably can't pause and healthily self-reflect about every single thing that bothers you.

499
00:27:00,075 --> 00:27:06,135
In your own sort of use of this model and thinking about this, how do you work out something that's worth a healthy, structured self-reflection on?

500
00:27:06,135 --> 00:27:09,045
And you can't do that about every issue that bothers you in the world.

501
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,300
No.

502
00:27:09,765 --> 00:27:09,915
No.

503
00:27:10,245 --> 00:27:10,605
Yep.

504
00:27:10,665 --> 00:27:11,835
That's a really good point.

505
00:27:11,835 --> 00:27:15,855
So it's something that bothers you and also something that you're curious about.

506
00:27:15,975 --> 00:27:16,155
Right.

507
00:27:16,155 --> 00:27:22,790
Because the curiosity will help carry you through the hard work of self-reflection.

508
00:27:22,790 --> 00:27:24,590
Actually, 'cause it does sound like a process.

509
00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:25,910
It is, yeah.

510
00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:30,379
It's something you have to sit down and work through and take time to think about.

511
00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:31,040
Yes.

512
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,950
And not just at one moment, but possibly over several days, coming back to something and thinking about it over a little while.

513
00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:39,770
And it's interesting what we made the college students do—

514
00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:40,070
Right.

515
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:48,060
—and what I did initially in the early days of developing a self-reflection habit, was I'd print out the worksheet that's actually

516
00:27:48,250 --> 00:27:58,439
in the book and hand write answers to all the questions, because the research shows that handwriting is better for us than typing.

517
00:27:58,679 --> 00:27:59,100
Yes.

518
00:27:59,159 --> 00:28:02,100
Because handwriting is another reflection process.

519
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:03,149
It slows you down a little bit.

520
00:28:03,239 --> 00:28:04,739
It does, yeah.

521
00:28:04,739 --> 00:28:10,155
And so, it would take me an hour—a good hour to work through something that bothered me.

522
00:28:10,755 --> 00:28:16,395
But then I found, as I kept doing it, there's a whole bank of knowledge that just builds up.

523
00:28:16,425 --> 00:28:16,455
Mm.

524
00:28:16,665 --> 00:28:17,715
And that's great.

525
00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:24,185
And so, I found I was able to just do that conscious reflection process faster.

526
00:28:24,625 --> 00:28:31,530
And now, because I'm so familiar with the process and so familiar with the outcomes, it's been really helpful to

527
00:28:31,530 --> 00:28:39,610
know, "Oh, I know exactly where I need to dip in now. You know, I'm ruminating. Okay, going straight to Step 3."

528
00:28:39,629 --> 00:28:40,050
Exactly.

529
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:40,530
Yeah.

530
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,530
But yes, you're a little more expert in the process and you've done it repeatedly.

531
00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:44,730
And that's the same with anything, isn't it?

532
00:28:44,730 --> 00:28:53,240
You learn a model because a model is sort of like the structured learner steps that you need to go through in order to learn a new practice.

533
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:53,510
Mm.

534
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:56,959
But once you learn the practice, you'll find yourself just almost doing it automatically—

535
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:57,560
Yeah.

536
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,300
—as time goes along, and perhaps more quickly.

537
00:28:59,570 --> 00:28:59,659
Yeah.

538
00:28:59,659 --> 00:29:08,810
Actually, Tony, something else I'd like to share about how self-reflection has been helpful for me in relationships with others, I think it's actually

539
00:29:08,814 --> 00:29:18,605
helped me to be a better conversation partner, because when you self-reflect, you really need to look closely at your experiences, ask questions.

540
00:29:18,605 --> 00:29:18,965
What—what is it?

541
00:29:19,044 --> 00:29:19,675
Describe.

542
00:29:20,095 --> 00:29:20,995
Explore.

543
00:29:21,085 --> 00:29:21,445
Okay.

544
00:29:21,445 --> 00:29:25,615
So you are being more intentional about actually thinking more carefully about what's really happening.

545
00:29:25,675 --> 00:29:25,915
Yes.

546
00:29:26,395 --> 00:29:27,865
So when you're talking to somebody else.

547
00:29:28,335 --> 00:29:28,785
Yeah.

548
00:29:28,785 --> 00:29:34,575
So self-reflection gets me exploring, asking questions, challenging assumptions, things like that.

549
00:29:34,635 --> 00:29:34,725
Mm-hmm.

550
00:29:34,905 --> 00:29:44,385
And so, I then find when I'm in conversation with people, I'm a better listener and I ask more questions, rather than making assumptions.

551
00:29:44,505 --> 00:29:44,595
Mm-hmm.

552
00:29:44,715 --> 00:29:51,035
And when I have an idea or moment of insight, I hold it more lightly.

553
00:29:51,155 --> 00:29:56,615
It's not, "Here's your solution." It's like, "Oh, I wonder whether this is helpful for you." That sort of thing.

554
00:29:56,765 --> 00:30:02,675
So I think it's actually helped me just be a better conversation partner when I'm talking to people.

555
00:30:02,735 --> 00:30:09,785
That makes sense, because, in a sense, having a greater self-awareness about the complexity of yourself and thinking about the different

556
00:30:09,785 --> 00:30:15,495
motives and how I immediately respond, or how I immediately think about myself, actually on reflection, there might be more going on.

557
00:30:15,495 --> 00:30:19,514
When I explore it and think about it, it makes me more aware that that's like that for everybody.

558
00:30:19,514 --> 00:30:19,544
Mm.

559
00:30:20,145 --> 00:30:25,125
And so, jumping to conclusions and offering quick pat solutions, you're more likely to explore, to—

560
00:30:25,125 --> 00:30:25,845
Yes.

561
00:30:25,935 --> 00:30:26,685
That's, it's really useful.

562
00:30:26,685 --> 00:30:27,135
Yeah.

563
00:30:27,290 --> 00:30:28,004
Yeah, yeah.

564
00:30:28,155 --> 00:30:30,645
Because you can listen and have an answer in your head.

565
00:30:31,185 --> 00:30:31,514
Yeah.

566
00:30:31,935 --> 00:30:35,835
And you're just waiting for a breath—a break—to give them your—to give them your solution.

567
00:30:35,865 --> 00:30:36,375
Exactly.

568
00:30:36,375 --> 00:30:39,675
And we've all talked to people and then thought, actually, this is what they're doing to me.

569
00:30:39,855 --> 00:30:40,540
Yeah, exactly.

570
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,220
Look, this is excellent and thank you so much for the effort and time that goes into writing a book.

571
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:50,110
I know what that's like and the agony, and I'm sure there's been numerous times during writing that things have bothered you.

572
00:30:50,595 --> 00:30:52,940
You maybe had to do some for healthy self-reflection—

573
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:53,410
Oh yes!

574
00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:54,250
—as you've written.

575
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,450
But thank you for doing that.

576
00:30:55,450 --> 00:31:01,314
The book is called "Getting Over Yourself", which I really like as a title, because it sort of pricks the bubble

577
00:31:01,314 --> 00:31:06,955
of being precious about it, or being self-absorbed, or this being a navel-gazing exercise, even just in the title.

578
00:31:07,014 --> 00:31:07,495
Yeah.

579
00:31:07,554 --> 00:31:10,764
But the point the book is making, of course, is that's not what it's about.

580
00:31:11,094 --> 00:31:17,355
You don't get past things and grow by ignoring them, or just by giving yourself a quick uppercut

581
00:31:17,405 --> 00:31:24,064
and saying, "Don't be so stupid. Be better." But by taking the prayerful time to think about things—

582
00:31:24,064 --> 00:31:24,125
Yeah.

583
00:31:24,125 --> 00:31:27,784
—think about the situation and about yourself and about how things could grow.

584
00:31:28,175 --> 00:31:28,475
Yeah.

585
00:31:28,745 --> 00:31:29,435
Thank you so much.

586
00:31:29,435 --> 00:31:34,285
Because I guess the end result of this, as it says in a subtitle, which is this kind of

587
00:31:34,285 --> 00:31:39,415
self-reflection habit—getting used to doing this—enables you to serve those around you.

588
00:31:39,445 --> 00:31:39,535
Mm-hmm.

589
00:31:39,535 --> 00:31:41,095
And ultimately that's our goal.

590
00:31:41,095 --> 00:31:42,605
It's to love God and love our neighbours.

591
00:31:42,605 --> 00:31:42,754
Mm-hmm.

592
00:31:42,754 --> 00:31:45,625
And so thanks for giving us a resource to help us do that.

593
00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:46,810
Thanks, Tony.

594
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:47,650
Oh, thanks Caroline.

595
00:31:47,650 --> 00:31:52,540
Thanks for being with us and thanks for being with us on another episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast.

596
00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:54,190
It's been great having you with us.

597
00:31:54,190 --> 00:31:59,590
And if you have any questions that you'd like to pose about this episode or any recent episode, don't hesitate to get in touch.

598
00:31:59,980 --> 00:32:04,220
Just send us an email at ccl@moore.edu.au.

599
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,230
We'd love to hear from you.

600
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,200
Thanks for being with us once again, and we'll see you next time.

601
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:08,850
'Bye for now.

602
00:32:24,210 --> 00:32:28,980
Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from Moore College.

603
00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:34,080
For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website at

604
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:43,160
ccl.moore.edu.au where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the

605
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:49,399
way back to 2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre.

606
00:32:49,910 --> 00:32:53,660
And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a

607
00:32:53,660 --> 00:32:58,470
tax deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College.

608
00:32:59,090 --> 00:33:06,745
We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other resources.

609
00:33:07,405 --> 00:33:11,905
And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions.

610
00:33:11,905 --> 00:33:12,955
Please get in touch.

611
00:33:13,254 --> 00:33:18,384
You can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au.

612
00:33:18,804 --> 00:33:24,534
Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and

613
00:33:24,685 --> 00:33:32,005
editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week.

614
00:33:32,155 --> 00:33:32,935
Thank you for listening.

615
00:33:33,445 --> 00:33:34,255
I'm Tony Payne.

616
00:33:34,675 --> 00:33:35,215
'Bye for now.