Tony Payne: Hello, I'm Tony Payne.
Welcome to another edition of Moore College's Centre for Christian Living podcast.
It's great to be with you again as we try to bring biblical ethics to everyday issues.
And normally in our episodes and in our discussions, we start with an issue and then we try to bring the Bible to that issue.
We start with the circumstance or situation of our lives
and then reflect back on what God has said and what it might mean for us to come back and think about this particular situation.
But in this episode of our podcast, we are going to work it from the other direction.
We're going to start with the Bible and with a particular part of the Bible, and then think, what does it mean for our Christian lives?
And this is also a really important thing to do in biblical ethics.
We do need to deal with the issues of life as they come up to meet us day by day, but we also need to pause
and allow what God says and what he says, of course in the scriptures and different parts of the Scriptures
to shape what we do to shape our whole lives and our attitudes that we bring to our lives each day.
And so in this episode, we're going to be taking a look at the Book of Galatians in particular, and we're going to take
advantage of the fact that last year at the Annual Moore College Lectures, Tom Schreiner from the United States visited Moore
College here, and gave a really stimulating and fascinating and very helpful set of lectures on the Book of Galatians.
In this conversation, Pete Orr (and this is the last of the interviews that Pete or did before he stepped down from his role
as the caretaker director of the Centre)—Pete Orr is going to be speaking with Tom Schreiner about the Book of Galatians and how
Galatians shapes the Christian life, how what God says in this marvellous letter directs the way we think and act as his people.
I do hope you find this as stimulating and enjoyable as I did in listening to it.
Here's Peter Orr speaking with Tom Schreiner, the Professor of New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
about the marvellous Book of Galatians.
Peter Orr: Welcome to Moore College's Centre for Christian Living podcast.
My name is Peter Orr and I'm very pleased today to be joined by Professor Tom Schreiner
from Southern Baptist Seminary in the United States.
Tom's been here at Moore College delivering our Annual Moore College Lectures on Galatians.
It's been a wonderful week, and it's great that Tom can join us on the podcast.
Tom, I might start by asking you, you spoke on Galatians all week, but this is obviously not the first time that you've done some work on Galatians.
How has the Lord used Galatians in your own life?
What's the nature of your study theme?
Tom Schreiner: Yes, I was raised as a Roman Catholic and I'd never heard the gospel.
And as a 17-year-old I read Galatians, Romans, other polling letters, and for the first time I understood, I. From reading Galatians
that were justified, were saved, not based on what we do, but based on the grace of God that's given to us in Jesus Christ.
And since then, Galatians has nourished my soul with the gospel of grace, with the
reminder that the good we do is finally due to God's work in our lives by the Holy Spirit.
As I said in the lectures, I love the words of Luther.
As he was dying, he said, we are beggars.
This is true.
Peter Orr: Just before we get into some of the themes in the letter, can you just sketch out why is Paul writing to the Galatian churches?
What's the issue that's prompting him to write?
Tom Schreiner: Yeah.
Yes.
Some rival teachers entered the community.
Probably they came from the outside and they said to the Galatian Christians who
are recently converted that they needed to keep the law and to be circumcised.
To belong to the people of God.
I think these false teachers probably appealed to Genesis chapter 17 verses nine through 14.
If you read those verses, they're not popular verses, but if you read those verses, it's clear that
according to the Old Testament, to be a member of the people of God, you had to be circumcised.
Peter Orr: So presumably a majority Gentile church that is being told that essentially you have to become Jewish to be part of God's people.
You spoke in your first lecture about the place of the cross in the letter.
Could you just kind of highlight the place of the cross in Galatians and then
from that what we can learn about the place of the cross in the Christian life?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tom Schreiner: Yeah.
I think it's very interesting that.
It wouldn't have been wrong per se.
Paul could have said, well, of course you shouldn't be circumcised.
You're baptized.
But instead, the polarity or the opposition is fundamentally between circumcision and the cross.
How do you enter the people of God?
Is it by being circumcised or I. Is it through the cross of Christ?
And of course for Paul, it's the cross and we see the cross and the introduction to the letter.
He's delivered us from the present evil age in one four, and then we see it at the end of the letter.
I'm only going to boast in the cross, Paul says in 2 21, if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
Or he says.
Three.
One who has cast a spell over you?
Who's Bewitched you?
Jesus Christ is the crucified one, or the curse is removed through the cross.
That's chapter three, verse 13, or were adopted through the cross.
So I think the message there is what we need first as sinners, as those are alienated from God.
As those who are in Adam.
We need death and then new life.
We need death and resurrection.
The pathway for that is not our own work, but the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
We need to place our faith in the crucified and resurrected one.
That's how we enter into life, not by keeping a command like circumcision or any other command.
Peter Orr: Yeah, it's very striking, as you said, the way that cross frames the letter
and very unusually for Paul to start his letter talking about the death of Christ.
But in this kind of crisis situation where they're being drawn away, it's the cross that he holds before them.
So you touched on the law, particularly circumcision and how they didn't need to be circumcised.
They didn't need to keep the law for the Christian life.
That's to sort of raise some interesting questions about the place of the law in the Christian life, particularly the 10 Commandments.
How should we as Christian believers relate to God's
law from the Old Testament?
Tom Schreiner: So the law in the Old Testament, I think is bound up with the Covenant may with Israel, under Moses, the Mosaic Covenant.
I would argue from what we see in Galatians three and four, Paul distinguishes between the covenant made with
Abraham and the Covenant made with Moses, and he emphasizes this covenant made with Moses came 430 years later.
It cannot invalidate the covenant made with Abraham or another way of putting it.
I think Paul argues that the Covenant made with Moses is an interim covenant, a temporary covenant.
Not a permanent covenant.
This is a very complicated question I think, but there's a sense in which the covenant made with Moses is of a different
nature because he contrasts promise with the Abrahamic covenant as one of promise, and he emphasizes the mosaic.
Covenant is one of doing and performance.
I don't think that's the only element to the Mosaic Covenant, but I think it's there.
So I think Paul would say, look, the law came with the mosaic.
Covenant Christians are not under that law at all.
I would say that covenant was meant for Israel.
Israel was a, so to speak, kind of a church and nation together.
A theocracy.
You know, a theocracy is where God is ruling the nation directly through his law.
But the church of Jesus Christ is not under that covenant.
The church of Jesus Christ isn't a theocracy.
We are the people of God.
In every nation throughout the world, and so we're not under the mosaic law.
That's the first thing to say.
So I would argue no stipulation in the mosaic.
Covenant, per se, is obligatory for us as Christian, and it's very important to say per se.
However, it's interesting.
It's complicated, isn't it?
Because then we read.
Galatians, but also in other places, Paul can appeal Ephesians to honor your
father and mother or in Romans to the commands, like, don't commit adultery.
Don't murder.
Some people say that Paul is operating on distinctions between the moral law, the
civil law, civil laws law for a nation, right, and ceremonial law or ritual law.
And that's the basis upon which he's making divisions.
So the moral law is still applicable today.
Not the ceremonial and civil law.
I actually think that insight is in many ways, basically, right.
But I think it backs into the issue the wrong way.
'cause I don't think Paul argues that specifically.
Instead, I think Paul says, you're not under the law at all, by which I think he means the most at Covenant.
That era of redemptive history has ended.
So then we have to ask the question, why are certain commands cited as authoritative?
I think we could say several things.
Well, first of all, the whole testament is still the word of God.
So even though we're not under the law, what we read in the law is still God's word speaking to God's people.
Second, we need to read the old covenant in light of the fulfillment that is common.
Jesus Christ.
We read the Old Testament text both in their historical context, but we also read 'em in light of the whole cannon.
We read in light of the fulfillment that has come in Jesus.
And then it seems to me that the New Testament is our guide.
What commands are authoritative?
Well, we see repeatedly, right?
Don't commit adultery.
Don't murder or don't steal.
And then Paul talks about the law of Christ in Galatians five 14 and six two.
It seems that law of Christ is a law of love, and we see a reference to the law of Christ in one Corinthians nine.
21 and 20 and 21 where it relates to showing love to our neighbor.
And then there's a relationship between love and keeping the commands in Romans 13.
So I would say that at the end of the day, it does seem that distinction.
Okay.
What parts of the law speak to us in a transcendent way that apply today?
They are the moral norms of the law.
They're not authoritative, I would argue because in the Old Covenant, they're not authoritative because they're part of the 10 commandments.
Many people disagree with that, but they're authoritative because they represent God's will, or even more profoundly God's character.
They describe who God is.
Now, that's a theological judgment.
Paul never explains what he's doing.
We have to deduce from looking at the text what he is doing.
Peter Orr: Thanks, Tom.
That's very helpful.
I guess with the 10 commandments, as you say, you know, most of them repeated against idolatry, adultery, you know, one God.
I guess the one where and evangelical reform Christians would maybe disagree on would be the Sabbath command.
How should we think about the Sabbath and our relationship to that command?
Tom Schreiner: Yes, and that is the most difficult issue.
I would begin by saying, literally practicing the Sabbath on Saturday is not what I think we're required to do or asked to do.
It's fine to do so, but first I'd say that I think the Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday.
This isn't scripture, but Ignatius writing very early says and maybe one 10 ad we don't worship on
the Sabbath, but the Lord's day, I think they distinguish between the Sabbath and the Lord's day.
Why don't I think the Sabbath is authoritative?
I think the Sabbath.
Points redemptive historically to our rest in Christ.
Jesus says, come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.
And it's very interesting in Matthew that is followed up by two Sabbath stories where Jesus is clearly the Lord of the Sabbath.
So I think we have an indication that the Sabbath command pointed to eschatological our rest.
Jesus and that rest in Jesus is ours when we're trusting in him.
And it seems to me, Hebrews picks this up in Hebrews chapter four, that the Sabbath rest points to our end time rest, which we enjoy
now by faith, but our end time rest, which is not in the land of Canaan any longer, but it's our heavenly rest in the new creation.
And I would argue that new creation is a physical creation.
It's the whole universe.
The whole universe will be the place of our Sabbath rest.
So a couple other things.
Hall says this in Cautions two 17, the Sabbath is a shadow and the substance or the soma belongs to Christ.
So that word for shadow is the same word Hebrews uses in Hebrews 10, one of Old Testament sacrifices.
Old Testament sacrifices are a shadow.
So shadows are good, but they point to the substance.
So the Sabbath was a sign of the mosaic covenant given to Israel, and it's restricted
to that covenant, but it points to our Sabbath, rest as a shadow to Christ.
And the other text that I think is very interesting is Romans 14.
Paul says, one person considers one day above another.
Others.
Consider every day to be alike.
Let every person be fully convinced in his own mind.
Scholars dispute this, but I think he's clearly including the Sabbath.
I mean, that's something that Jews practiced every week.
It was very prominent in their lives and their experience and their thinking.
So isn't it interesting that Paul says it's fine to observe the Sabbath?
Be convinced in your own mind if you wanna observe it, observe it.
But he also says other people don't hold that view.
Therefore, it seems to me that Paul doesn't think the Sabbath is required anymore.
You know, I always like to say, imagine him saying that about murder or adultery.
Some people think murder's wrong, other think it's okay.
Just be convinced of whatever seems right to you.
There's no way that Paul would say about those commands, so I think that's an indication that the Sabbath is not required tonight.
Karen Beilharz: Since 1977, the Annual Moore College Lectures have showcased leading contemporary biblical and theological
scholarship on topics ranging from a theology of the Christian life with Kelly Kapic, the use of the Pentateuch
in the New Testament with T Desmond Alexander, and last year's series on the Book of Galatians with Tom Schreiner.
This year, Peter Orr, lecturer in the New Testament Department at Moore Theological College, will be delivering the 2025 Annual Moore College Lectures
on the topic of faith. What is faith?
Is faith without knowledge still
faith?
What did Jesus mean when he said that
if we have faith as small as a mustard seed, we can uproot a tree or move a mountain?
And why does Paul tell us that we are declared right with God by faith apart from works of the law in Romans,
while James insists that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Join us on the mornings of Monday 4th to Friday 8th of August, and hear from
Peter Orr on how God provides us with an unfolding revelation of faith across the whole Bible.
You can find out more on the Moore College website: moore.edu.au.
That's moore.edu.au.
Registrations will open later this year.
Tony Payne: And now let's get back to our program.
Peter Orr: One of the other themes that Paul returns to again and again in the letter is the theme of justification.
Justification is one of those terms that maybe young Christian sort of hears about,
knows they should believe in it, but maybe is a little bit kind of fuzzy on it.
What do we mean when we talk about justification by faith, not by works.
How does Paul develop that idea in the letter?
Tom Schreiner: I think justification comes from the world of the court, the law court.
So if we picture in our mind, God as the judge, and he is making a judgment, he's assessing our lives.
And what do judges do?
They declare you to be in the right or in the wrong.
What does scripture say?
God declares us at least initially to be in the wrong because we're sinners.
Judges assess our lives based on what we've done, and scripture is clear, all of sinned and falls short of the glory of God.
So there's no hope for us it seems.
But then the gospel teaches us that Jesus Christ as the crucified and risen one.
What is Galatians three 13 says?
Well, let's back up to Galatians three 10.
Those who don't obey the law are curse because the law demands us to obey everything in it.
But then Galatians three 13 says, Christ became a curse for us 'cause it is written cursed as everyone who hangs upon a tree.
So Christ died in our place, right?
He became a curse for us.
He died in our place.
He took the penalty we deserved.
Which is to be cursed.
I think that's the end time curse.
So how does justification come?
How can God declare us to be in the right, not based on our works?
'cause God demands perfection.
Everyone who doesn't abide by everything written in the book of the law.
So we have to do everything The law says we don't do that, we can't do that, but Christ died in our place, took the curse that we deserved.
So if we put our trust in him.
We rest upon him for our righteousness.
We don't rely upon our works or our performance, but his work then we are justified.
God declares us to be in the right, not based on our own works, but based on Christ crucified and risen.
That's the best news in the world.
Luther said in one place, if I knew God were happy with me, I'd stand on my head.
I'd be so happy.
That's the good news of the gospel.
If you're trusting in Christ, God is happy with you, you're accepted in the beloved.
Peter Orr: So the specific language of justification by faith as opposed to justification by works.
So that significance of the faith is trusting in Christ.
Tom Schreiner: Yes.
Yes.
Faith is not just merely.
Mentally agreeing with something, although it includes that, right?
We have to believe Jesus really died for us and was raised from the dead, but faith means we're saved by trusting.
I think trust is a good word, or relying or resting on Christ or embracing Christ.
There's this sense of receiving.
From God, what Christ has done for us.
It's sort of interesting to think of the gospel of John, 'cause I think John uses a lot of different
metaphors for believing, like receiving, accepting, drinking, eating, coming, following, entering.
What is John trying to teach us?
I think the same thing Paul is saying.
Faith is receptive, but it kind of enters into our very being as like a drinking and eating.
Peter Orr: So what about the place of works in the Christian life?
If we are made right with God through trusting in Christ's work, what place do good works have in our Christian life?
Do we just not worry about it?
Do we not think about them?
Or what's the place that they have?
Tom Schreiner: Yeah, some would make the mistake of saying, and I think Paul
reflects on this actually in Romans six, but it's also in Galatians five and six.
Well, if we're justified by the grace of God, if his grace.
It's so great that it shines brighter.
When we sin, we see the greatness of God's forgiveness.
Should we sin even more?
And of course, in Romans six, Paul argues that we've died to sin.
But I think it's clear in Paul that good works, I would use this language.
Good works are necessary.
Consequence or evidence.
That we belong to God.
And here's a text in Galatians which celebrates so wonderfully, God's free grace.
Paul speaks of the works of the flesh, and he says, I'm saying to you, just as I said to
you before, those who practice the works of the flesh will not enter the kingdom of God.
So Paul can say, if you practice evil, you will not be saved.
You won't enter the eschatological kingdom, you won't enter the new creation and study, you'll be cursed.
Well, we know from the rest of Galatians and the rest of Paul's letters and really the rest of the New Testament,
that can't mean that our works are the basis of our right relationship with God because we're all sinners.
We've all fallen short.
We all need to receive God's grace and to be forgiven of our sins.
And.
I think it's clear that we continue to sin as Christians.
I'd like to point to what Augustine said to Pleis in their debate over a plaus,
by the way, believed you could be perfect as a Christian and a great scholar.
And Pastor Augustine said, well, Jesus taught us the prayer, the Lord's Prayer and the Lord's prayers ask God to forgive us of our sins.
So Augustine rightly said, that has to be a regular feature of our lives.
If in the Lord's Prayer, which were to pray regularly, says we petition God to forgive us of our sins, then sin must continue in us.
So we're not talking about perfection and the good works can't be the basis of our justification, but the good works must be there.
And I think there are evidence of the power of the Spirit in our lives.
They're the fruit that shows that we truly have eternal life.
Those whom God has justified, he's also regenerated and given new life, and he is transformed us.
We're not perfect, but we're different.
We have a new orientation, a new pattern, a new direction.
So if you're a very sensitive Christian, you can overemphasize this.
You can read it in a very perfectionistic term and worry every day about whether you're saved.
So this theme of the necessity of good works could be read in a kind of perfectionistic direction.
And I've counseled people and they get very worried about this and that God doesn't want us to be worried in that way.
On the other hand, you can underemphasize it and say, well, it doesn't matter at all.
There is a new pattern in our lives that clearly needs to be there as an indication that we really belong to God.
Peter Orr: Just on perfectionism.
One of my favorite stories about Charles Spurgeon, the famous Baptist pastor from Victorian London.
He was at a conference and one of the speakers claimed that he was perfect.
The next morning at Breakfast, aspersion writes that he took a jug of milk and poured it over the brother's head.
And then he writes, his perfection disappeared under the kds and way that's that's beautiful.
Wonderfully.
And Galatians spends a lot of time on this.
Wonderfully the Lord gives us of His Holy Spirit to enable us to live the Christian life.
And, uh, some wonderful texts in chapter five.
Talk about walking by the Spirit, being led by the Spirit.
Can you just say a little bit about what that actually means?
I think we could sometimes easily use that language, or we need to walk by
the Spirit, but we don't really stop and think, what does that actually mean?
Tom Schreiner: Mm mm Yes, it is very beautiful.
So walking by the Spirit that's five 16 Galatians, I think that metaphor is saying step by step, day by day.
We rely on the Spirit.
We step out, so to speak, but we are asking God through his Spirit to strengthen us as we do so.
Then he uses the language of being led or directed or being governed by the Spirit.
I think we could say controlled by the Spirit.
And again, there's a sense, I don't think he's thinking so much of direction for particular guidance or something like that.
That our lives are under the control of the Holy Spirit, I think.
How does that happen?
I think we pray for God by His Spirit to help us as we live our lives.
Then he speaks to the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, so forth.
That's helpful, right?
Because you might say, am I living under the authority and power and strength of the Holy Spirit?
Well, there's the works of the flesh and there's the fruit of the Spirit.
We can tell.
What the fundamental direction of our lives is.
Again, it's not perfection.
And then 5 25, he says, March and step with the Spirit, which is a nice image, right?
It says.
The Spirit's, our director, and we march, says March and we march, or then in six eight he
says, using a agricultural imagery, so do the Spirit and then you'll re to eternal life.
So it's interesting, there is a human dimension to it, right?
Where we're asking the Spirit to help us.
We're stepping out.
We don't just let go and let God.
We're not just passive.
And yet at the same time, they're supernatural.
Ineffable work in us, and I always like to add in Ephesians five 18 be filled with the Spirit.
I think that's another way of talking about this as well.
Peter Orr: One of the things you brought out in
your lecture,
which was so striking in this context that the fruit of the Spirit, so many of the list are relationship, we are related to how we relate
to one another, and that's a theme that comes out of the end of the letter that as much as Paul's talking about us and our relationship with the Lord.
Our own faith, and we have to exercise that individually.
The Christian life is lived in the context of relationships.
Tom Schreiner: Hmm.
Yeah.
And it's so striking when he talks about the works of the flesh.
I think, if I remember right, three terms for sexual sin, two for idolatry, two for drunkenness and partying,
but eight sins that are social, quarreling, fighting, dissensions, and of course the fruit of the Spirit.
When you think of love and patience with others, gentleness, with others, self-control that's exercised and so forth.
And then he talks about reproving others who are in sin, but doing it gently, not being envious, not biting and devouring one another.
So how practical this is again, what does it mean to walk in the Spirit?
It means that we love one another in concrete and specific ways.
We can in our rooms think we're very pious and godly and love God and read the Bible and those experiences are real.
But if in our daily lives and our interaction with others, we're not living in a way that shows
kindness and grace to others, then we're not living in a way that accords with the life of the Spirit.
Peter Orr: Tom, thank you very much for both in the lectures you delivered at Moore College and in our conversation just now for showing us.
How helpful Paul's letter to the Galatians is for understanding and living the Christian life.
Thanks for being on the podcast.
Tom Schreiner: That was my pleasure, Peter.
Tony Payne: Well, thanks for joining us on this
episode of the Centre for Christian
Living Podcast for Moore College. For a whole lot more
from the Centre
for Christian
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Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in
transcribing and editing and producing this podcast, to James West for music, and to you, dear listeners,
for joining us each week.
Thank you for listening.
I'm Tony Payne.
Bye for now.