1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,930 Tony Payne: Hello, I'm Tony Payne. 2 00:00:00,930 --> 00:00:05,040 Welcome to another edition of Moore College's Centre for Christian Living podcast. 3 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:09,510 It's great to be with you again as we try to bring biblical ethics to everyday issues. 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:17,640 And normally in our episodes and in our discussions, we start with an issue and then we try to bring the Bible to that issue. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,285 We start with the circumstance or situation of our lives 6 00:00:20,890 --> 00:00:27,760 and then reflect back on what God has said and what it might mean for us to come back and think about this particular situation. 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,770 But in this episode of our podcast, we are going to work it from the other direction. 8 00:00:32,770 --> 00:00:39,400 We're going to start with the Bible and with a particular part of the Bible, and then think, what does it mean for our Christian lives? 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,120 And this is also a really important thing to do in biblical ethics. 10 00:00:43,490 --> 00:00:49,850 We do need to deal with the issues of life as they come up to meet us day by day, but we also need to pause 11 00:00:49,850 --> 00:00:54,860 and allow what God says and what he says, of course in the scriptures and different parts of the Scriptures 12 00:00:55,310 --> 00:01:00,080 to shape what we do to shape our whole lives and our attitudes that we bring to our lives each day. 13 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:06,259 And so in this episode, we're going to be taking a look at the Book of Galatians in particular, and we're going to take 14 00:01:06,259 --> 00:01:13,160 advantage of the fact that last year at the Annual Moore College Lectures, Tom Schreiner from the United States visited Moore 15 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:19,130 College here, and gave a really stimulating and fascinating and very helpful set of lectures on the Book of Galatians. 16 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:26,170 In this conversation, Pete Orr (and this is the last of the interviews that Pete or did before he stepped down from his role 17 00:01:26,170 --> 00:01:32,470 as the caretaker director of the Centre)—Pete Orr is going to be speaking with Tom Schreiner about the Book of Galatians and how 18 00:01:32,530 --> 00:01:40,570 Galatians shapes the Christian life, how what God says in this marvellous letter directs the way we think and act as his people. 19 00:01:40,975 --> 00:01:44,244 I do hope you find this as stimulating and enjoyable as I did in listening to it. 20 00:01:44,574 --> 00:01:50,604 Here's Peter Orr speaking with Tom Schreiner, the Professor of New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary 21 00:01:51,150 --> 00:01:52,770 about the marvellous Book of Galatians. 22 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:10,949 Peter Orr: Welcome to Moore College's Centre for Christian Living podcast. 23 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:16,890 My name is Peter Orr and I'm very pleased today to be joined by Professor Tom Schreiner 24 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:21,119 from Southern Baptist Seminary in the United States. 25 00:02:21,450 --> 00:02:27,390 Tom's been here at Moore College delivering our Annual Moore College Lectures on Galatians. 26 00:02:27,390 --> 00:02:30,989 It's been a wonderful week, and it's great that Tom can join us on the podcast. 27 00:02:31,410 --> 00:02:39,120 Tom, I might start by asking you, you spoke on Galatians all week, but this is obviously not the first time that you've done some work on Galatians. 28 00:02:39,390 --> 00:02:41,730 How has the Lord used Galatians in your own life? 29 00:02:41,730 --> 00:02:43,230 What's the nature of your study theme? 30 00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:49,950 Tom Schreiner: Yes, I was raised as a Roman Catholic and I'd never heard the gospel. 31 00:02:50,459 --> 00:03:01,365 And as a 17-year-old I read Galatians, Romans, other polling letters, and for the first time I understood, I. From reading Galatians 32 00:03:01,365 --> 00:03:10,275 that were justified, were saved, not based on what we do, but based on the grace of God that's given to us in Jesus Christ. 33 00:03:10,605 --> 00:03:17,355 And since then, Galatians has nourished my soul with the gospel of grace, with the 34 00:03:17,355 --> 00:03:24,855 reminder that the good we do is finally due to God's work in our lives by the Holy Spirit. 35 00:03:25,365 --> 00:03:28,305 As I said in the lectures, I love the words of Luther. 36 00:03:28,695 --> 00:03:31,035 As he was dying, he said, we are beggars. 37 00:03:31,035 --> 00:03:31,665 This is true. 38 00:03:31,935 --> 00:03:38,295 Peter Orr: Just before we get into some of the themes in the letter, can you just sketch out why is Paul writing to the Galatian churches? 39 00:03:38,295 --> 00:03:40,965 What's the issue that's prompting him to write? 40 00:03:41,025 --> 00:03:41,235 Tom Schreiner: Yeah. 41 00:03:41,235 --> 00:03:41,595 Yes. 42 00:03:41,595 --> 00:03:44,325 Some rival teachers entered the community. 43 00:03:44,325 --> 00:03:50,085 Probably they came from the outside and they said to the Galatian Christians who 44 00:03:50,085 --> 00:03:55,965 are recently converted that they needed to keep the law and to be circumcised. 45 00:03:56,355 --> 00:03:58,365 To belong to the people of God. 46 00:03:58,635 --> 00:04:04,485 I think these false teachers probably appealed to Genesis chapter 17 verses nine through 14. 47 00:04:04,755 --> 00:04:10,965 If you read those verses, they're not popular verses, but if you read those verses, it's clear that 48 00:04:10,965 --> 00:04:15,345 according to the Old Testament, to be a member of the people of God, you had to be circumcised. 49 00:04:15,945 --> 00:04:23,865 Peter Orr: So presumably a majority Gentile church that is being told that essentially you have to become Jewish to be part of God's people. 50 00:04:24,224 --> 00:04:28,995 You spoke in your first lecture about the place of the cross in the letter. 51 00:04:29,265 --> 00:04:33,015 Could you just kind of highlight the place of the cross in Galatians and then 52 00:04:33,075 --> 00:04:36,075 from that what we can learn about the place of the cross in the Christian life? 53 00:04:36,104 --> 00:04:36,195 Mm-hmm. 54 00:04:36,590 --> 00:04:36,880 Yeah. 55 00:04:37,424 --> 00:04:37,935 Tom Schreiner: Yeah. 56 00:04:37,935 --> 00:04:39,734 I think it's very interesting that. 57 00:04:40,290 --> 00:04:42,270 It wouldn't have been wrong per se. 58 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:44,970 Paul could have said, well, of course you shouldn't be circumcised. 59 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:45,840 You're baptized. 60 00:04:46,380 --> 00:04:51,660 But instead, the polarity or the opposition is fundamentally between circumcision and the cross. 61 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:53,220 How do you enter the people of God? 62 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:57,914 Is it by being circumcised or I. Is it through the cross of Christ? 63 00:04:57,914 --> 00:05:02,745 And of course for Paul, it's the cross and we see the cross and the introduction to the letter. 64 00:05:02,835 --> 00:05:09,315 He's delivered us from the present evil age in one four, and then we see it at the end of the letter. 65 00:05:09,375 --> 00:05:17,174 I'm only going to boast in the cross, Paul says in 2 21, if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing. 66 00:05:17,354 --> 00:05:18,224 Or he says. 67 00:05:18,625 --> 00:05:18,925 Three. 68 00:05:18,925 --> 00:05:20,875 One who has cast a spell over you? 69 00:05:20,875 --> 00:05:21,895 Who's Bewitched you? 70 00:05:22,224 --> 00:05:26,604 Jesus Christ is the crucified one, or the curse is removed through the cross. 71 00:05:26,965 --> 00:05:30,354 That's chapter three, verse 13, or were adopted through the cross. 72 00:05:30,685 --> 00:05:38,905 So I think the message there is what we need first as sinners, as those are alienated from God. 73 00:05:38,905 --> 00:05:40,075 As those who are in Adam. 74 00:05:40,495 --> 00:05:43,075 We need death and then new life. 75 00:05:43,075 --> 00:05:45,085 We need death and resurrection. 76 00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:52,500 The pathway for that is not our own work, but the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 77 00:05:52,830 --> 00:05:56,430 We need to place our faith in the crucified and resurrected one. 78 00:05:56,805 --> 00:06:01,845 That's how we enter into life, not by keeping a command like circumcision or any other command. 79 00:06:02,115 --> 00:06:05,445 Peter Orr: Yeah, it's very striking, as you said, the way that cross frames the letter 80 00:06:05,805 --> 00:06:10,725 and very unusually for Paul to start his letter talking about the death of Christ. 81 00:06:11,175 --> 00:06:16,515 But in this kind of crisis situation where they're being drawn away, it's the cross that he holds before them. 82 00:06:16,935 --> 00:06:21,915 So you touched on the law, particularly circumcision and how they didn't need to be circumcised. 83 00:06:21,915 --> 00:06:24,465 They didn't need to keep the law for the Christian life. 84 00:06:25,005 --> 00:06:33,495 That's to sort of raise some interesting questions about the place of the law in the Christian life, particularly the 10 Commandments. 85 00:06:33,794 --> 00:06:37,935 How should we as Christian believers relate to God's 86 00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:39,224 law from the Old Testament? 87 00:06:39,465 --> 00:06:46,305 Tom Schreiner: So the law in the Old Testament, I think is bound up with the Covenant may with Israel, under Moses, the Mosaic Covenant. 88 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:54,720 I would argue from what we see in Galatians three and four, Paul distinguishes between the covenant made with 89 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:01,110 Abraham and the Covenant made with Moses, and he emphasizes this covenant made with Moses came 430 years later. 90 00:07:01,620 --> 00:07:08,640 It cannot invalidate the covenant made with Abraham or another way of putting it. 91 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:14,160 I think Paul argues that the Covenant made with Moses is an interim covenant, a temporary covenant. 92 00:07:14,565 --> 00:07:16,245 Not a permanent covenant. 93 00:07:16,724 --> 00:07:23,085 This is a very complicated question I think, but there's a sense in which the covenant made with Moses is of a different 94 00:07:23,085 --> 00:07:30,735 nature because he contrasts promise with the Abrahamic covenant as one of promise, and he emphasizes the mosaic. 95 00:07:30,735 --> 00:07:33,405 Covenant is one of doing and performance. 96 00:07:33,495 --> 00:07:37,275 I don't think that's the only element to the Mosaic Covenant, but I think it's there. 97 00:07:37,770 --> 00:07:42,480 So I think Paul would say, look, the law came with the mosaic. 98 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,330 Covenant Christians are not under that law at all. 99 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:48,450 I would say that covenant was meant for Israel. 100 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,680 Israel was a, so to speak, kind of a church and nation together. 101 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:53,820 A theocracy. 102 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:59,070 You know, a theocracy is where God is ruling the nation directly through his law. 103 00:07:59,670 --> 00:08:02,790 But the church of Jesus Christ is not under that covenant. 104 00:08:02,790 --> 00:08:05,400 The church of Jesus Christ isn't a theocracy. 105 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,900 We are the people of God. 106 00:08:07,229 --> 00:08:13,380 In every nation throughout the world, and so we're not under the mosaic law. 107 00:08:13,679 --> 00:08:15,330 That's the first thing to say. 108 00:08:15,750 --> 00:08:20,039 So I would argue no stipulation in the mosaic. 109 00:08:20,039 --> 00:08:25,620 Covenant, per se, is obligatory for us as Christian, and it's very important to say per se. 110 00:08:25,919 --> 00:08:27,690 However, it's interesting. 111 00:08:27,690 --> 00:08:28,830 It's complicated, isn't it? 112 00:08:28,830 --> 00:08:30,060 Because then we read. 113 00:08:30,810 --> 00:08:36,510 Galatians, but also in other places, Paul can appeal Ephesians to honor your 114 00:08:36,510 --> 00:08:41,280 father and mother or in Romans to the commands, like, don't commit adultery. 115 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:41,940 Don't murder. 116 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:48,750 Some people say that Paul is operating on distinctions between the moral law, the 117 00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:53,640 civil law, civil laws law for a nation, right, and ceremonial law or ritual law. 118 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:57,600 And that's the basis upon which he's making divisions. 119 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,940 So the moral law is still applicable today. 120 00:09:00,660 --> 00:09:02,760 Not the ceremonial and civil law. 121 00:09:03,270 --> 00:09:06,689 I actually think that insight is in many ways, basically, right. 122 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:10,650 But I think it backs into the issue the wrong way. 123 00:09:11,130 --> 00:09:13,170 'cause I don't think Paul argues that specifically. 124 00:09:13,170 --> 00:09:18,390 Instead, I think Paul says, you're not under the law at all, by which I think he means the most at Covenant. 125 00:09:18,390 --> 00:09:20,730 That era of redemptive history has ended. 126 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:27,810 So then we have to ask the question, why are certain commands cited as authoritative? 127 00:09:28,260 --> 00:09:29,880 I think we could say several things. 128 00:09:30,060 --> 00:09:32,550 Well, first of all, the whole testament is still the word of God. 129 00:09:33,390 --> 00:09:39,810 So even though we're not under the law, what we read in the law is still God's word speaking to God's people. 130 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:45,210 Second, we need to read the old covenant in light of the fulfillment that is common. 131 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:46,020 Jesus Christ. 132 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:52,020 We read the Old Testament text both in their historical context, but we also read 'em in light of the whole cannon. 133 00:09:52,410 --> 00:09:54,930 We read in light of the fulfillment that has come in Jesus. 134 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:59,370 And then it seems to me that the New Testament is our guide. 135 00:09:59,370 --> 00:10:01,290 What commands are authoritative? 136 00:10:01,650 --> 00:10:03,480 Well, we see repeatedly, right? 137 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,530 Don't commit adultery. 138 00:10:04,530 --> 00:10:06,510 Don't murder or don't steal. 139 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:12,300 And then Paul talks about the law of Christ in Galatians five 14 and six two. 140 00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:18,540 It seems that law of Christ is a law of love, and we see a reference to the law of Christ in one Corinthians nine. 141 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:25,110 21 and 20 and 21 where it relates to showing love to our neighbor. 142 00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:30,900 And then there's a relationship between love and keeping the commands in Romans 13. 143 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:36,540 So I would say that at the end of the day, it does seem that distinction. 144 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:37,200 Okay. 145 00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:42,000 What parts of the law speak to us in a transcendent way that apply today? 146 00:10:42,090 --> 00:10:43,860 They are the moral norms of the law. 147 00:10:44,745 --> 00:10:51,495 They're not authoritative, I would argue because in the Old Covenant, they're not authoritative because they're part of the 10 commandments. 148 00:10:51,495 --> 00:10:59,325 Many people disagree with that, but they're authoritative because they represent God's will, or even more profoundly God's character. 149 00:10:59,355 --> 00:11:00,945 They describe who God is. 150 00:11:01,305 --> 00:11:03,225 Now, that's a theological judgment. 151 00:11:03,575 --> 00:11:05,405 Paul never explains what he's doing. 152 00:11:05,795 --> 00:11:08,885 We have to deduce from looking at the text what he is doing. 153 00:11:09,275 --> 00:11:09,695 Peter Orr: Thanks, Tom. 154 00:11:09,695 --> 00:11:10,565 That's very helpful. 155 00:11:10,595 --> 00:11:17,375 I guess with the 10 commandments, as you say, you know, most of them repeated against idolatry, adultery, you know, one God. 156 00:11:17,705 --> 00:11:24,365 I guess the one where and evangelical reform Christians would maybe disagree on would be the Sabbath command. 157 00:11:24,785 --> 00:11:29,465 How should we think about the Sabbath and our relationship to that command? 158 00:11:29,585 --> 00:11:32,765 Tom Schreiner: Yes, and that is the most difficult issue. 159 00:11:33,719 --> 00:11:41,430 I would begin by saying, literally practicing the Sabbath on Saturday is not what I think we're required to do or asked to do. 160 00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:46,560 It's fine to do so, but first I'd say that I think the Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday. 161 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:53,339 This isn't scripture, but Ignatius writing very early says and maybe one 10 ad we don't worship on 162 00:11:53,339 --> 00:11:58,800 the Sabbath, but the Lord's day, I think they distinguish between the Sabbath and the Lord's day. 163 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,290 Why don't I think the Sabbath is authoritative? 164 00:12:01,290 --> 00:12:02,609 I think the Sabbath. 165 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,589 Points redemptive historically to our rest in Christ. 166 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:13,860 Jesus says, come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. 167 00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:23,880 And it's very interesting in Matthew that is followed up by two Sabbath stories where Jesus is clearly the Lord of the Sabbath. 168 00:12:24,060 --> 00:12:31,709 So I think we have an indication that the Sabbath command pointed to eschatological our rest. 169 00:12:32,594 --> 00:12:37,245 Jesus and that rest in Jesus is ours when we're trusting in him. 170 00:12:37,574 --> 00:12:47,594 And it seems to me, Hebrews picks this up in Hebrews chapter four, that the Sabbath rest points to our end time rest, which we enjoy 171 00:12:47,594 --> 00:12:55,785 now by faith, but our end time rest, which is not in the land of Canaan any longer, but it's our heavenly rest in the new creation. 172 00:12:56,025 --> 00:12:59,324 And I would argue that new creation is a physical creation. 173 00:12:59,444 --> 00:13:00,584 It's the whole universe. 174 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:04,110 The whole universe will be the place of our Sabbath rest. 175 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:05,969 So a couple other things. 176 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:15,780 Hall says this in Cautions two 17, the Sabbath is a shadow and the substance or the soma belongs to Christ. 177 00:13:16,199 --> 00:13:22,140 So that word for shadow is the same word Hebrews uses in Hebrews 10, one of Old Testament sacrifices. 178 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:25,079 Old Testament sacrifices are a shadow. 179 00:13:25,439 --> 00:13:28,980 So shadows are good, but they point to the substance. 180 00:13:29,310 --> 00:13:36,090 So the Sabbath was a sign of the mosaic covenant given to Israel, and it's restricted 181 00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:41,880 to that covenant, but it points to our Sabbath, rest as a shadow to Christ. 182 00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:45,960 And the other text that I think is very interesting is Romans 14. 183 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,070 Paul says, one person considers one day above another. 184 00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:51,150 Others. 185 00:13:51,150 --> 00:13:52,860 Consider every day to be alike. 186 00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:55,710 Let every person be fully convinced in his own mind. 187 00:13:56,715 --> 00:14:00,645 Scholars dispute this, but I think he's clearly including the Sabbath. 188 00:14:00,765 --> 00:14:03,315 I mean, that's something that Jews practiced every week. 189 00:14:03,855 --> 00:14:07,935 It was very prominent in their lives and their experience and their thinking. 190 00:14:08,385 --> 00:14:11,745 So isn't it interesting that Paul says it's fine to observe the Sabbath? 191 00:14:12,435 --> 00:14:15,345 Be convinced in your own mind if you wanna observe it, observe it. 192 00:14:15,555 --> 00:14:19,725 But he also says other people don't hold that view. 193 00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:25,710 Therefore, it seems to me that Paul doesn't think the Sabbath is required anymore. 194 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,420 You know, I always like to say, imagine him saying that about murder or adultery. 195 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:33,480 Some people think murder's wrong, other think it's okay. 196 00:14:33,690 --> 00:14:37,350 Just be convinced of whatever seems right to you. 197 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:46,680 There's no way that Paul would say about those commands, so I think that's an indication that the Sabbath is not required tonight. 198 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:23,730 Karen Beilharz: Since 1977, the Annual Moore College Lectures have showcased leading contemporary biblical and theological 199 00:15:23,730 --> 00:15:30,030 scholarship on topics ranging from a theology of the Christian life with Kelly Kapic, the use of the Pentateuch 200 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:36,180 in the New Testament with T Desmond Alexander, and last year's series on the Book of Galatians with Tom Schreiner. 201 00:15:37,305 --> 00:15:46,365 This year, Peter Orr, lecturer in the New Testament Department at Moore Theological College, will be delivering the 2025 Annual Moore College Lectures 202 00:15:46,605 --> 00:15:49,305 on the topic of faith. What is faith? 203 00:15:49,755 --> 00:15:51,255 Is faith without knowledge still 204 00:15:51,255 --> 00:15:51,585 faith? 205 00:15:52,185 --> 00:15:53,865 What did Jesus mean when he said that 206 00:15:53,865 --> 00:15:58,575 if we have faith as small as a mustard seed, we can uproot a tree or move a mountain? 207 00:15:59,175 --> 00:16:05,444 And why does Paul tell us that we are declared right with God by faith apart from works of the law in Romans, 208 00:16:05,775 --> 00:16:10,185 while James insists that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 209 00:16:10,185 --> 00:16:16,815 Join us on the mornings of Monday 4th to Friday 8th of August, and hear from 210 00:16:16,815 --> 00:16:22,335 Peter Orr on how God provides us with an unfolding revelation of faith across the whole Bible. 211 00:16:23,025 --> 00:16:26,295 You can find out more on the Moore College website: moore.edu.au. 212 00:16:26,325 --> 00:16:29,205 That's moore.edu.au. 213 00:16:30,165 --> 00:16:32,234 Registrations will open later this year. 214 00:16:32,474 --> 00:16:34,545 Tony Payne: And now let's get back to our program. 215 00:16:34,694 --> 00:16:40,964 Peter Orr: One of the other themes that Paul returns to again and again in the letter is the theme of justification. 216 00:16:41,535 --> 00:16:46,064 Justification is one of those terms that maybe young Christian sort of hears about, 217 00:16:46,275 --> 00:16:49,364 knows they should believe in it, but maybe is a little bit kind of fuzzy on it. 218 00:16:49,364 --> 00:16:53,354 What do we mean when we talk about justification by faith, not by works. 219 00:16:53,415 --> 00:16:55,635 How does Paul develop that idea in the letter? 220 00:16:56,204 --> 00:17:01,005 Tom Schreiner: I think justification comes from the world of the court, the law court. 221 00:17:01,545 --> 00:17:10,605 So if we picture in our mind, God as the judge, and he is making a judgment, he's assessing our lives. 222 00:17:10,605 --> 00:17:12,105 And what do judges do? 223 00:17:12,165 --> 00:17:16,545 They declare you to be in the right or in the wrong. 224 00:17:17,159 --> 00:17:18,329 What does scripture say? 225 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,520 God declares us at least initially to be in the wrong because we're sinners. 226 00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:33,570 Judges assess our lives based on what we've done, and scripture is clear, all of sinned and falls short of the glory of God. 227 00:17:33,899 --> 00:17:36,300 So there's no hope for us it seems. 228 00:17:36,689 --> 00:17:43,500 But then the gospel teaches us that Jesus Christ as the crucified and risen one. 229 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,810 What is Galatians three 13 says? 230 00:17:46,215 --> 00:17:48,465 Well, let's back up to Galatians three 10. 231 00:17:49,065 --> 00:17:53,895 Those who don't obey the law are curse because the law demands us to obey everything in it. 232 00:17:54,495 --> 00:18:02,925 But then Galatians three 13 says, Christ became a curse for us 'cause it is written cursed as everyone who hangs upon a tree. 233 00:18:03,345 --> 00:18:06,855 So Christ died in our place, right? 234 00:18:06,945 --> 00:18:08,805 He became a curse for us. 235 00:18:08,895 --> 00:18:10,095 He died in our place. 236 00:18:10,335 --> 00:18:12,524 He took the penalty we deserved. 237 00:18:13,139 --> 00:18:14,699 Which is to be cursed. 238 00:18:15,030 --> 00:18:16,830 I think that's the end time curse. 239 00:18:17,429 --> 00:18:19,379 So how does justification come? 240 00:18:19,620 --> 00:18:22,889 How can God declare us to be in the right, not based on our works? 241 00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:24,929 'cause God demands perfection. 242 00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:28,679 Everyone who doesn't abide by everything written in the book of the law. 243 00:18:29,490 --> 00:18:39,419 So we have to do everything The law says we don't do that, we can't do that, but Christ died in our place, took the curse that we deserved. 244 00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:42,270 So if we put our trust in him. 245 00:18:42,735 --> 00:18:46,215 We rest upon him for our righteousness. 246 00:18:46,785 --> 00:18:54,165 We don't rely upon our works or our performance, but his work then we are justified. 247 00:18:54,165 --> 00:19:01,635 God declares us to be in the right, not based on our own works, but based on Christ crucified and risen. 248 00:19:01,845 --> 00:19:03,585 That's the best news in the world. 249 00:19:03,585 --> 00:19:09,795 Luther said in one place, if I knew God were happy with me, I'd stand on my head. 250 00:19:10,155 --> 00:19:11,295 I'd be so happy. 251 00:19:12,075 --> 00:19:13,665 That's the good news of the gospel. 252 00:19:13,754 --> 00:19:17,625 If you're trusting in Christ, God is happy with you, you're accepted in the beloved. 253 00:19:18,015 --> 00:19:23,385 Peter Orr: So the specific language of justification by faith as opposed to justification by works. 254 00:19:23,385 --> 00:19:26,745 So that significance of the faith is trusting in Christ. 255 00:19:26,985 --> 00:19:27,375 Tom Schreiner: Yes. 256 00:19:27,375 --> 00:19:27,705 Yes. 257 00:19:27,735 --> 00:19:29,355 Faith is not just merely. 258 00:19:29,730 --> 00:19:32,850 Mentally agreeing with something, although it includes that, right? 259 00:19:32,850 --> 00:19:41,220 We have to believe Jesus really died for us and was raised from the dead, but faith means we're saved by trusting. 260 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:50,220 I think trust is a good word, or relying or resting on Christ or embracing Christ. 261 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,190 There's this sense of receiving. 262 00:19:53,730 --> 00:19:56,730 From God, what Christ has done for us. 263 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,139 It's sort of interesting to think of the gospel of John, 'cause I think John uses a lot of different 264 00:20:01,139 --> 00:20:12,420 metaphors for believing, like receiving, accepting, drinking, eating, coming, following, entering. 265 00:20:12,780 --> 00:20:14,670 What is John trying to teach us? 266 00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:16,440 I think the same thing Paul is saying. 267 00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:21,600 Faith is receptive, but it kind of enters into our very being as like a drinking and eating. 268 00:20:22,050 --> 00:20:24,719 Peter Orr: So what about the place of works in the Christian life? 269 00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:32,189 If we are made right with God through trusting in Christ's work, what place do good works have in our Christian life? 270 00:20:32,189 --> 00:20:34,169 Do we just not worry about it? 271 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:35,669 Do we not think about them? 272 00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:37,199 Or what's the place that they have? 273 00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:41,189 Tom Schreiner: Yeah, some would make the mistake of saying, and I think Paul 274 00:20:41,250 --> 00:20:46,379 reflects on this actually in Romans six, but it's also in Galatians five and six. 275 00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:51,419 Well, if we're justified by the grace of God, if his grace. 276 00:20:51,705 --> 00:20:55,695 It's so great that it shines brighter. 277 00:20:56,145 --> 00:20:58,995 When we sin, we see the greatness of God's forgiveness. 278 00:20:58,995 --> 00:21:00,794 Should we sin even more? 279 00:21:01,395 --> 00:21:04,425 And of course, in Romans six, Paul argues that we've died to sin. 280 00:21:04,455 --> 00:21:09,915 But I think it's clear in Paul that good works, I would use this language. 281 00:21:09,945 --> 00:21:12,105 Good works are necessary. 282 00:21:12,735 --> 00:21:15,735 Consequence or evidence. 283 00:21:16,335 --> 00:21:18,315 That we belong to God. 284 00:21:18,615 --> 00:21:24,195 And here's a text in Galatians which celebrates so wonderfully, God's free grace. 285 00:21:24,765 --> 00:21:30,525 Paul speaks of the works of the flesh, and he says, I'm saying to you, just as I said to 286 00:21:30,525 --> 00:21:37,035 you before, those who practice the works of the flesh will not enter the kingdom of God. 287 00:21:37,455 --> 00:21:44,625 So Paul can say, if you practice evil, you will not be saved. 288 00:21:45,135 --> 00:21:50,205 You won't enter the eschatological kingdom, you won't enter the new creation and study, you'll be cursed. 289 00:21:50,475 --> 00:21:55,875 Well, we know from the rest of Galatians and the rest of Paul's letters and really the rest of the New Testament, 290 00:21:56,145 --> 00:22:03,765 that can't mean that our works are the basis of our right relationship with God because we're all sinners. 291 00:22:04,035 --> 00:22:05,205 We've all fallen short. 292 00:22:05,205 --> 00:22:10,065 We all need to receive God's grace and to be forgiven of our sins. 293 00:22:10,755 --> 00:22:11,355 And. 294 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,420 I think it's clear that we continue to sin as Christians. 295 00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:22,050 I'd like to point to what Augustine said to Pleis in their debate over a plaus, 296 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:27,510 by the way, believed you could be perfect as a Christian and a great scholar. 297 00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:36,870 And Pastor Augustine said, well, Jesus taught us the prayer, the Lord's Prayer and the Lord's prayers ask God to forgive us of our sins. 298 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:40,590 So Augustine rightly said, that has to be a regular feature of our lives. 299 00:22:40,965 --> 00:22:49,635 If in the Lord's Prayer, which were to pray regularly, says we petition God to forgive us of our sins, then sin must continue in us. 300 00:22:49,905 --> 00:22:58,155 So we're not talking about perfection and the good works can't be the basis of our justification, but the good works must be there. 301 00:22:58,425 --> 00:23:02,835 And I think there are evidence of the power of the Spirit in our lives. 302 00:23:03,225 --> 00:23:07,875 They're the fruit that shows that we truly have eternal life. 303 00:23:08,310 --> 00:23:15,840 Those whom God has justified, he's also regenerated and given new life, and he is transformed us. 304 00:23:16,290 --> 00:23:18,240 We're not perfect, but we're different. 305 00:23:18,270 --> 00:23:22,890 We have a new orientation, a new pattern, a new direction. 306 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,820 So if you're a very sensitive Christian, you can overemphasize this. 307 00:23:27,389 --> 00:23:32,159 You can read it in a very perfectionistic term and worry every day about whether you're saved. 308 00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:38,129 So this theme of the necessity of good works could be read in a kind of perfectionistic direction. 309 00:23:38,129 --> 00:23:44,129 And I've counseled people and they get very worried about this and that God doesn't want us to be worried in that way. 310 00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:48,630 On the other hand, you can underemphasize it and say, well, it doesn't matter at all. 311 00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:56,730 There is a new pattern in our lives that clearly needs to be there as an indication that we really belong to God. 312 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,050 Peter Orr: Just on perfectionism. 313 00:23:58,050 --> 00:24:03,210 One of my favorite stories about Charles Spurgeon, the famous Baptist pastor from Victorian London. 314 00:24:03,210 --> 00:24:08,160 He was at a conference and one of the speakers claimed that he was perfect. 315 00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:14,625 The next morning at Breakfast, aspersion writes that he took a jug of milk and poured it over the brother's head. 316 00:24:14,985 --> 00:24:22,095 And then he writes, his perfection disappeared under the kds and way that's that's beautiful. 317 00:24:22,665 --> 00:24:23,385 Wonderfully. 318 00:24:23,385 --> 00:24:25,395 And Galatians spends a lot of time on this. 319 00:24:25,425 --> 00:24:30,615 Wonderfully the Lord gives us of His Holy Spirit to enable us to live the Christian life. 320 00:24:31,004 --> 00:24:33,345 And, uh, some wonderful texts in chapter five. 321 00:24:33,764 --> 00:24:37,305 Talk about walking by the Spirit, being led by the Spirit. 322 00:24:37,305 --> 00:24:39,254 Can you just say a little bit about what that actually means? 323 00:24:39,254 --> 00:24:41,805 I think we could sometimes easily use that language, or we need to walk by 324 00:24:41,805 --> 00:24:44,955 the Spirit, but we don't really stop and think, what does that actually mean? 325 00:24:45,495 --> 00:24:48,524 Tom Schreiner: Mm mm Yes, it is very beautiful. 326 00:24:48,524 --> 00:24:56,655 So walking by the Spirit that's five 16 Galatians, I think that metaphor is saying step by step, day by day. 327 00:24:57,254 --> 00:24:59,564 We rely on the Spirit. 328 00:24:59,564 --> 00:25:06,915 We step out, so to speak, but we are asking God through his Spirit to strengthen us as we do so. 329 00:25:06,915 --> 00:25:13,485 Then he uses the language of being led or directed or being governed by the Spirit. 330 00:25:13,514 --> 00:25:15,885 I think we could say controlled by the Spirit. 331 00:25:16,364 --> 00:25:23,114 And again, there's a sense, I don't think he's thinking so much of direction for particular guidance or something like that. 332 00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:27,600 That our lives are under the control of the Holy Spirit, I think. 333 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:28,440 How does that happen? 334 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:34,410 I think we pray for God by His Spirit to help us as we live our lives. 335 00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:39,150 Then he speaks to the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, so forth. 336 00:25:39,570 --> 00:25:40,680 That's helpful, right? 337 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:47,640 Because you might say, am I living under the authority and power and strength of the Holy Spirit? 338 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,790 Well, there's the works of the flesh and there's the fruit of the Spirit. 339 00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:51,510 We can tell. 340 00:25:51,825 --> 00:25:55,185 What the fundamental direction of our lives is. 341 00:25:55,335 --> 00:25:56,745 Again, it's not perfection. 342 00:25:57,045 --> 00:26:01,815 And then 5 25, he says, March and step with the Spirit, which is a nice image, right? 343 00:26:01,815 --> 00:26:02,265 It says. 344 00:26:02,639 --> 00:26:08,280 The Spirit's, our director, and we march, says March and we march, or then in six eight he 345 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,970 says, using a agricultural imagery, so do the Spirit and then you'll re to eternal life. 346 00:26:14,970 --> 00:26:18,840 So it's interesting, there is a human dimension to it, right? 347 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,090 Where we're asking the Spirit to help us. 348 00:26:21,090 --> 00:26:22,200 We're stepping out. 349 00:26:22,530 --> 00:26:24,210 We don't just let go and let God. 350 00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:25,440 We're not just passive. 351 00:26:25,950 --> 00:26:29,730 And yet at the same time, they're supernatural. 352 00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:36,300 Ineffable work in us, and I always like to add in Ephesians five 18 be filled with the Spirit. 353 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,179 I think that's another way of talking about this as well. 354 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:40,320 Peter Orr: One of the things you brought out in 355 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:40,830 your lecture, 356 00:26:40,830 --> 00:26:47,580 which was so striking in this context that the fruit of the Spirit, so many of the list are relationship, we are related to how we relate 357 00:26:47,580 --> 00:26:54,810 to one another, and that's a theme that comes out of the end of the letter that as much as Paul's talking about us and our relationship with the Lord. 358 00:26:55,395 --> 00:26:58,335 Our own faith, and we have to exercise that individually. 359 00:26:58,365 --> 00:27:02,055 The Christian life is lived in the context of relationships. 360 00:27:02,085 --> 00:27:02,415 Tom Schreiner: Hmm. 361 00:27:02,805 --> 00:27:03,105 Yeah. 362 00:27:03,105 --> 00:27:06,405 And it's so striking when he talks about the works of the flesh. 363 00:27:06,765 --> 00:27:13,545 I think, if I remember right, three terms for sexual sin, two for idolatry, two for drunkenness and partying, 364 00:27:13,545 --> 00:27:20,475 but eight sins that are social, quarreling, fighting, dissensions, and of course the fruit of the Spirit. 365 00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:30,450 When you think of love and patience with others, gentleness, with others, self-control that's exercised and so forth. 366 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:39,480 And then he talks about reproving others who are in sin, but doing it gently, not being envious, not biting and devouring one another. 367 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:44,700 So how practical this is again, what does it mean to walk in the Spirit? 368 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:49,860 It means that we love one another in concrete and specific ways. 369 00:27:50,264 --> 00:27:57,825 We can in our rooms think we're very pious and godly and love God and read the Bible and those experiences are real. 370 00:27:58,245 --> 00:28:04,274 But if in our daily lives and our interaction with others, we're not living in a way that shows 371 00:28:04,274 --> 00:28:10,274 kindness and grace to others, then we're not living in a way that accords with the life of the Spirit. 372 00:28:10,845 --> 00:28:16,455 Peter Orr: Tom, thank you very much for both in the lectures you delivered at Moore College and in our conversation just now for showing us. 373 00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:21,420 How helpful Paul's letter to the Galatians is for understanding and living the Christian life. 374 00:28:21,420 --> 00:28:23,130 Thanks for being on the podcast. 375 00:28:23,250 --> 00:28:24,420 Tom Schreiner: That was my pleasure, Peter. 376 00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:41,070 Tony Payne: Well, thanks for joining us on this 377 00:28:41,069 --> 00:28:42,689 episode of the Centre for Christian 378 00:28:42,689 --> 00:28:45,929 Living Podcast for Moore College. For a whole lot more 379 00:28:45,929 --> 00:28:46,524 from the Centre 380 00:28:46,524 --> 00:28:46,919 for Christian 381 00:28:46,919 --> 00:28:49,439 Living, just head over to the CCL website, 382 00:28:49,439 --> 00:28:58,019 that's ccl.more.edu au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast 383 00:28:58,019 --> 00:29:04,049 episode, all the way back to 2017, videos from our live events, and articles that we've published 384 00:29:04,049 --> 00:29:05,093 through the Centre. 385 00:29:05,093 --> 00:29:05,789 And while 386 00:29:05,789 --> 00:29:12,029 you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a tax-deductible donation to support the ongoing 387 00:29:12,029 --> 00:29:13,589 work of the Centre here at Moore 388 00:29:13,589 --> 00:29:14,069 College. 389 00:29:14,639 --> 00:29:16,499 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast 390 00:29:16,979 --> 00:29:21,689 and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and our other 391 00:29:21,689 --> 00:29:27,479 resources. We always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 392 00:29:27,479 --> 00:29:28,499 Please get in touch. 393 00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:33,929 You can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au. 394 00:29:34,350 --> 00:29:39,029 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in 395 00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:46,469 transcribing and editing and producing this podcast, to James West for music, and to you, dear listeners, 396 00:29:46,469 --> 00:29:47,549 for joining us each week. 397 00:29:47,699 --> 00:29:48,509 Thank you for listening. 398 00:29:49,019 --> 00:29:49,799 I'm Tony Payne. 399 00:29:50,249 --> 00:29:50,819 Bye for now.