Tony Payne: Hello again.
I'm Tony Payne and welcome to the Centre for Christian Living Podcast here at Moore College.
Really great to be with you again as we try to bring biblical ethics to everyday issues.
And today's everyday issue is dating apps.
Now, that's two words that I'm not used to putting together, dating, which,
from what I can remember when dating was a thing that was in my life, you'd sort of met somebody and if you liked them,
you sort of asked them out for a coffee or dinner or something, and that was getting to know someone going on a date.
But apparently now it all happens via apps.
And in this conversation between Pete Orr and Jocelyn Bignill, who's done quite a bit of thinking on this
topic, the conversation is about how Christians should think about online dating in this kind of way.
Many, many Christian people—younger people especially, of course—
use dating apps as a way of meeting people, and Christians do this as well.
How should we navigate this area as Christians?
What are the strengths and weaknesses of this approach?
And what are the dangers to be aware of?
It's an important subject and not just for those of us who are in the stage of life, where it's directly relevant to us and to how
we meet people and get to know people through dating, but also for those of us who maybe have kids who are getting to that point
in life where this is going to be relevant for them as well, and helping our young adult and growing kids navigate this tricky area.
I do hope you find this conversation useful between Pete Orr and Jocelyn Bignill on dating apps.
Peter Orr: Hello, welcome to the Centre for Christian Living Podcast.
Today I'm joined by my
friend, Jocelyn Bignill.
This is the second time you've been on a podcast, Joss. You're one of the ministers at All Saints Peterson.
Last time you told us a little bit about how you became a Christian.
Why don't you start by just telling us a little bit about ministry at All Saints and particularly your own ministry.
Jocelyn Bignill: Hi Pete.
Thanks so much for having me.
I really love being at All Saints.
This is my sixth year as the assistant minister and I got to be the student minister for two years before that as well.
I'm an assistant minister in every sense of the word in that I'm a very generalist kind of role.
I assist the minister and the ministry at All Saints, and that looks different every day, every week in lots of different things.
I oversee youth and children's ministry.
I'm particularly invested in women's discipleship.
I get to do a lot of the background work and shaping and the services and music.
I teach scripture, I run a growth group and help to organize the growth groups and write the Bible studies.
I could go on lots and lots of different wonderful things that I get to do,
Peter Orr: and you do some great talks and you even write articles, and we're
going to talk about an article that you are writing and it's on dating apps.
No, that's not something that I've thought a lot about.
I'm glad to hear it.
Why did you write the article on dating apps?
Jocelyn Bignill: Dating apps are a relatively new phenomenon if we're thinking in terms of our life histories or
a generational history, and so I think we haven't done a lot of thinking about them as Christians, and I think
that that means that there's some danger there for us as Christians in not having thought this through well.
Dating apps present all kinds of challenges and obstacles.
And so as Christians, we really need to reflect on is this a helpful platform for us to be engaging with?
And if it is, how do I engage with dating apps wisely in a way that's going to help me to continue to grow in my godliness and Christian character?
And that's true for people who are using them.
But I also think in my own role as a pastor, I'm thinking about people in my congregation and church family.
I'm thinking about other pastors as well and whether they've thought this through and how are they helping people
in their churches discipling them through this process of using dating apps and whether or not it's a good idea.
I think there's a gap in our.
Thinking in our reflection at the moment.
Peter Orr: Yeah.
When we first talked about it, that was the thing that really struck me was, okay, if we, if we wanna be caring for people in
our churches, and this is the world that we live in, we need to be helping people to think about this reality in a Christian way.
So the articles is so helpful and you start in a slightly surprising place.
You start by saying you don't need to go on dating apps.
What did you mean by that?
Jocelyn Bignill: I think that if you are a single person, I'm a single person for context.
As a single person, you can feel pressure that you have to go on a dating app.
If you're serious about wanting to meet someone, well then you've gotta be on a dating app because that's the only way people meet now.
So I think that people can feel really pressured into using dating apps, and that's really unhelpful.
God will work in our lives regardless of whether it's through an app or not.
And you are not going to go on an app and instantly meet the love of your life.
This is not the thing that God is waiting for you to do.
To meet a partner, but it can feel like, or we can have that message from other people
that if you were really serious about wanting to meet someone, you would go on an app.
You don't need to do that.
That's not true.
So if you're feeling pressured to try dating apps, you don't need to feel pressured.
You can say no to people speaking that into your life.
You might decide, actually, dating apps are not a good platform for me to be on.
They're going to make me feel anxious, they're going to make me feel discontent.
They are just not a helpful way for me to engage with people, and that's a good decision to make.
So one side of the equation is I think that people can feel pressured.
Peter Orr: Have you seen that in your experience, people that you've ministered to, that you've seen that
they have this kind of pressure, that they feel that this is an area that they need to be engaging in?
Jocelyn Bignill: Yeah, definitely.
I. At our church in particular, we have lots of single women, younger and older, and
there is this kind of a little bit of a feeling of, am I ever going to meet someone?
And people express that, and that's a really normal and okay way to feel.
And I think then they can feel like, well, I have to be doing this, or I'm not actually giving it a go.
So I'm definitely seeing that.
Among people in my church, and I felt that pressure myself as well.
It's been suggested to me to use dating apps by a number of people in ways that they're wanting to be
helpful, and I'm not averse to being suggested that, but I certainly don't want anyone to feel pressured.
Peter Orr: So no pressure.
You don't need to go on dating apps, but you also argue in the article that you can go on a dating app.
Hmm.
Jocelyn Bignill: Yeah.
Certainly.
The other side of the equation is that it can feel like maybe Christians shouldn't use these apps.
And I think that maybe if we haven't thought through dating apps or don't know a lot about them, the Christian conservative thing is
to jump to the conclusion of, oh, we just shouldn't use them without really exploring the idea of this kind of platform or technology.
So I would say yes, Christians can use dating apps with the caveat that we need to do a lot of thought and
exercise, a lot of wisdom and discernment and be really careful because they are a place where we can be tempted.
To sin.
They are a place where we can be tempted to make unwise decisions that are going to hinder our
Christian growth, but they can also be a, a place where you start a really wonderful relationship.
So just because there're are some inherent stumbling blocks, I don't think that means that.
Christians should not use dating apps.
So what's a Godly way to use a dating app?
The first thing that I wanna assert, and I believe this very strongly and think that every Christian should believe this, is that
Christians date Christians, not only do Christians date Christians, but they date mature Christians whose lives are shaped by the gospel.
So when you're on a dating app, be really upfront about your faith and when you're looking at other people's profiles.
Be looking for.
Not only have they kind of ticked the Christian religious box, but how is their love for Jesus reflected in their profile?
If they're saying that their favorite Sunday activity is sleeping in and having brunch and
going to the beach, that might not be someone who's actually engaged in a church family.
If there's no other sign of loving Jesus or pursuing God in their profile, then.
I think it's pretty safe to conclude this is not someone who's very serious about their faith and not someone I should be looking
to enter into a relationship with, which when they tick a whole bunch of other boxes might be more tempting than it seems.
I. Especially if you're getting really frustrated with the apps or you've been on there for a while
and things haven't been working out, it's easy to start compromising on core things like that.
Peter Orr: And I mean, I guess that applies obviously outside of using the app, but maybe in
that context where you're feeling the pressure, it's much more tempting to your done outline.
Jocelyn Bignill: Yeah.
And you know, you are expressing an interest and availability.
They're expressing an interest and availability.
They might have liked your profile, so they're specifically expressing an interest in
you, and you've made it really obvious on your profile that you're a follower of Jesus.
They might see that and still not think it's very important because of all the other amazing things they see about you on that profile.
They might downplay your faith, even though you've made it really obvious and upfront.
Peter Orr: So that's the kind of core, non-negotiable aspect In the article, you talk about some sort of sensible wisdom approaches to using the apps.
You wanna talk about some of those.
Jocelyn Bignill: Another thing I think we undervalue as Christians and don't think about enough in our relationships is emotional intimacy.
I read a really helpful book on dating that said.
When you're dating someone, you're not looking to grow in intimacy with them, but in clarity, is this someone that I want to marry?
Is this a person that is wise for me to pursue a relationship with?
And I think that's a really helpful framework and way of thinking when you're approaching dating apps.
I don't want to grow in intimacy with this person.
I want to grow in clarity about whether or not this is someone I should date.
And that can be true in our real life relationships as well.
When you are having lots of long, late night conversations where you're both in your beds when you're sending
pictures to each other or sharing things with each other, you can get really emotionally invested in a relationship
that has really just been a few texts backwards and forwards, and this can lead down all kinds of unhelpful roads.
For one thing, you don't know what other conversations this person is having, so you might be really emotionally invested.
And women are more vulnerable to this.
Men are too in some ways, but I think women are particularly vulnerable to this.
And so you might be feeling like you're having a really deep connection with this person,
but actually they're making that connection with a number of other people at the same time.
And so you can end up really bearing your soul and then quite heartbroken, because these apps can be quite depersonalizing.
It can feel like you're not connecting with a real person, and it's very easy to treat people.
Now, you might be the victim of that, but you also might be the perpetrator.
You might be the one that's connecting and being emotionally vulnerable and intimate with a number of people at once
and really hurting people, it's really easy to not see people as fully fledged made in the image of God human beings.
To see them all as only having value in the potential they have to be a partner
Peter Orr: for you.
That's very helpful.
That idea that you're looking for clarity rather than intimacy.
You have a part a little bit later in the article, but I think close on where you talk about meeting online, not dating online.
I wanna say something about that.
Jocelyn Bignill: Yeah, that's another line that I stole from somebody else that I thought was helpful.
I think it's good to not keep that relationship online for an extended period of time.
Don't be messaging back onto and forwards for weeks on end.
Make a time to meet up.
Now again, particularly if you're a woman, you need to be careful to be safe in the way you do that.
This is a stranger.
This is someone you do not know.
So you need to meet in a public place.
You need to meet during the daytime.
You need to arrive and leave separately and not give them any kind of specific idea of where you live or work.
Those are just kind of basic safety things, particularly for women, but men you can consider that as well.
You need to let people know that you're meeting up with someone where you'll be when
you'll be meeting with them, just to make sure you've got everything in place to be safe.
I'd also recommend keep your conversation within the app rather than exchanging numbers, because
if something happens that is a negative experience, then you can report that within the app.
But if they want to go over the messaging on your phone numbers instead they might unmatch
with you on the app and then you have no way of keeping them accountable for their actions.
Whereas if you remain in the app, you can keep them accountable for the way they've acted.
But having said all that, all those caveats and safety things meet up in person, have a conversation
a whole night of texting backwards and forwards can amount to about 10 minutes of actual dialogue.
So it's really helpful to have a real conversation and flesh out who this person is a bit more.
And you might meet up once and go.
That's not who I thought that person was.
That's actually not someone I wanna spend more time with, and that's a successful result.
But it helps you to see them as a three dimensional person to see their demeanor.
It's much more easy to craft an image within an app, you know, old dating websites with these huge in-depth profiles that people spend hours making.
Now you can spend five minutes, throw up a few flattering photos, make a couple of witty remarks, and start connecting with other people.
So you don't get a filled out picture of that other person at all.
And then I would say if you're pursuing and continuing in that relationship, try and hang out with them in the context of other people.
Go out with a group of their friends, go the group of your friends and see how they interact with other people.
One of the great things about dating someone you already know is that you've got to see them in a different context.
Dating someone from church is a great idea because you've seen them serving, you've seen them listening to sermons or not.
You've seen them interacting with other people at church, people that might
be their mates, people that might not be their mates you've seen them serving.
You get a much fuller picture of someone when you're seeing them on a regular basis.
So dating apps add that extra obstacle of having to figure out who this person is.
When you're starting from a point of isolation, it's just you and this other person.
Peter Orr: It's a piece with our modern ways of relating that so much of our relationship
happens online now and there are some positives, but there are a lot of negatives, uh, to that.
And then when you sort of add that on, the kind of complexity of dating that can make things tricky.
Jocelyn Bignill: Yeah, definitely.
And there can be a lack of accountability as well.
And this is one of the areas where we can fall into dangers.
For one thing, you can pursue a relationship with a person that you really know is not wise.
Maybe they're not very strong in their faith or not a Christian at all.
Maybe there are other red flags that come up about their character or your compatibility, but you've connected
with them and you just don't want to give that up because it feels like it's been so hard to gain that connection.
So you're willing to ignore those things, and if you are not dating them in any kind of
wider context, if your friends aren't seeing them, if their friends are not seeing you.
Then it can be easy to kind of put your blinkers on and ignore those things and keep going.
We also attempted to fall into sexual sin because again, that disconnection of screen to screen can lead us down roads.
Make us ignore things that maybe we'd be more sensitive to if we were physically present with each other.
So you can send explicit photos to each other, send explicit messages to each other,
and it feels like you really haven't done anything that bad because it wasn't in person.
But that's still sexual sin that needs to be repented of.
And if you have done that, if you're someone that's engaged with dating apps and you've done things you regret.
Ask God for forgiveness.
He freely offers his forgiveness.
You do not need to stay in guilt and shame because of that sin, but also talk to somebody else about it.
Talk to a trusted, mature Christian friend.
Talk to your pastor or minister and loop them in.
It might be a good idea for you to take a break from dating apps if that's been the case.
You might be in a relationship that's not very wise, that you wanna figure out a way out of.
Don't leave that sin in the dark and dating apps, they can feel very secret and very
private and like things are hidden from God because they're not happening out in the open.
They're not happening in real life, but they still happen and that sexual sin is still very real, even if it's digital.
Tony Payne: Hello, I'm Tony Payne.
It's great to be back at the Centre for Christian Living as the director of CCL, and this year we've got two events
coming up in May and in October, and they're going to be a little bit different from the events of the past few years.
They're going to be less of a talk followed by discussion
and more of a workshop, a biblical ethics workshop, where we work together through all
the material and think through what it means to think as a Christian about this topic.
And on 7th May, our first ethics workshop for the year is going to be on neurodivergence.
It's a hard word to say, isn't it?
Neurodivergence and the Christian life.
We've all got experience of this phenomenon, of these conditions in our lives, in our
families, and extended families and churches—people whose brains work differently.
It might be given names like Autism Spectrum Disorder or ADHD, but this phenomenon of thinking differently about
the world and of having brains that function in different ways—stronger in some things, much weaker in others—
this is something that more and more of us are having to deal with and understand and respond to as Christians in a way that's driven by the gospel.
So if you can,
come on, 7th May to our first ethics workshop for the year here at Moore College.
I look forward to seeing you there.
You can get all the details at ccl.moore.edu.au.
Tony Payne: And now let's get back to our program.
Peter Orr: In part of the article,
you talk about establishing healthy habits.
What are some of the habits that you think are important to establish?
Jocelyn Bignill: Hmm.
I think like any social media or app or smartphone technology, dating apps really play into that addictive quality.
Swiping, the scrolling.
All of that taps into, I heard someone say it's the same part of our brain that poker machines tap into.
It's really addictive and it's hard to stop yourself, so you need to be putting in place
some boundaries for yourself so that you are engaging with dating apps in a helpful way.
I can't dictate what those might be.
You can think of those for yourself, you know yourself.
The places that you might fall into that addiction or temptation.
But some suggestions might be that you don't use dating apps late at night.
Maybe you set a time limit after 9:00 PM I don't use that app anymore.
Maybe you just have one point in the day where I'm going to check this app, I'm
going to look at a few profiles, see if I've had anyone respond to my profile.
You've got 15 minutes as a window.
Maybe you only use it for a short period of time, at a time for a month, and then you switch it off.
Take breaks from it.
I would say definitely put a boundary in place that you don't use a dating app when you are with another person,
so you're not letting your online engagement with people interrupt your real life relationships with other people.
You might also choose to stay on the free version of the app that you're using because then they
will put limits on how many profiles you can view and how many responses you can give to people.
So that could be a good external way of putting boundaries in place.
And I'd say if you are feeling anxious, if you are feeling discontent, if you are really struggling because
you are using a dating app, I think the thing about this kind of platform is you are opening a door.
You're kind of, you're saying, I'm ready and open for a relationship in a way that you might, if you met someone that you liked.
So if I meet someone, I feel attracted to them.
I want to tell them that I like them.
I wanna spend more time with them.
You, when you do that, you're opening a door and you're making yourself
vulnerable, and it might work out well, or you might end up hurt and that's fine.
That's how relationships and life works.
When you go on a dating app, you are opening that door in that same way, but not to a particular person.
Just to a general idea that there might be someone on this platform who I can connect with.
That can leave you with a lot of anxiety, a lot of discontent, maybe feeling depressed and disconnected and lonely and all these other things.
So maybe if that happens to you.
This doesn't happen for everyone.
Some people are much more cool and casual than I am.
But if this does happen for you, maybe you say dating apps aren't for me.
This actually is just affecting my mental health, my spiritual health.
Too much.
I need to not use these.
Great, you've given it a go and you've decided it's not for you.
Or maybe you just need to put some of those boundaries in place and say, I'm going to try it for a month, and then I'm going to have a break.
And just see how different you feel after turning that off.
So I think, yeah, just being honest with yourself, having other people who are checking in with
where you're at, and checking in with yourself as well to make sure that you're tracking all right.
All those different facets and ways.
Peter Orr: That's really helpful, Joss, and as you said, there's real Christian freedom.
There's lots of wisdom needed.
A word to marry people in our churches as we support those who are single, who are navigating these
complexities, perhaps in a way that single Christians 20 years ago didn't have to navigate these complexities.
How can we support our single brothers and sisters in our churches?
Jocelyn Bignill: I think being willing to ask questions.
I'm never offended if someone asks me, have you met someone?
How are you feeling about being single at the moment?
I always really appreciate when my friends ask me those questions.
I don't want them to ask 'em every time we meet up.
It's not the only thing going on in my life, but I like being asked questions by the people who care about me, so don't be
afraid to ask questions and check in and if someone has told you I'm using this dating app, ask them how they're going with that.
If they've met people.
If they're being safe, how they feeling Are their habits healthy?
Asking questions is really helpful, but also just include single people in your life.
I think it's very easy, particularly for young married couples to fall into a trap of only
wanting to hang out with other young married couples because it's comfortable and easy.
But I, I'm so, so grateful for the friends that I have who have made me part of their families.
They come into my home and I go into their home.
I'm part of their kids' lives and get to be there for all kinds of special things.
I'm godparent to a couple of beautiful kids as well, and love that relationship I get to have with them.
So just be friends.
All of us need friends, whether we're single or not.
So be intentional.
Look outside of your own family circle, which it's so easy to become consumed by and include other people in your family and and in your life.
And I think that's particularly important for single people to have those kind of relationships.
And if you're a single person and you don't have anyone that you have that relationship with.
Then look for a family or a couple who you can say, Hey, can I come over for dinner?
Or do you want to come over to mine?
And look for a family that you connect with naturally.
You know, people who you like each other and seek to form that kind of relationship.
Peter Orr: That's so helpful.
Thank you for writing this and applying the gospel, applying Christian principles to something that on the surface seems quite complex and so
kind of removed from the Bible, but actually as you've shown the wisdom that the scriptures give us apply here as they do in any circumstance.
So thanks very much.
Jocelyn Bignill: You're so welcome, Pete.
Tony Payne: Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living Podcast from
Moore College. For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website:
that's ccl.moore.edu.au—
where you can
find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode, all the way back to
2017, videos from our live events and articles that we've published through the Centre.
And while you're there on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a
tax deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the centre here at Moore College.
We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that
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and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions.
Please get in touch.
You can email us at ccl@moore.edu.au.
Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all the work in transcribing and
editing and producing this podcast; to James West for the music; and to you, dear listeners, for joining us each week.
Thank you for listening.
I'm Tony Payne.
Bye for now.