1 00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:03,360 Well, hello again, and welcome to the Centre for Christian Living podcast. 2 00:00:03,430 --> 00:00:04,310 Great to be with you. 3 00:00:04,810 --> 00:00:11,909 And if you recognise this voice, it's because you've maybe been a long-term listener to the CCL podcast. 4 00:00:11,910 --> 00:00:19,240 It's Tony Payne here, and I'm back this year as the director of CCL, the Centre for Christian Living, and the host of this podcast. 5 00:00:19,589 --> 00:00:24,099 I was around back in 2017 when we kicked off this podcast and was the host for a few years. 6 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:32,889 And in the meantime, since then, Chase Kuhn has been in the chair and more recently Pete Orr, and we're all very grateful for the work that they did. 7 00:00:33,290 --> 00:00:40,120 And I'm especially grateful to Pete Orr because In the final months of his stint as the stand in host of this podcast, 8 00:00:40,569 --> 00:00:46,989 he recorded a whole bunch of interviews so that I would have a little bit of time to get myself sorted and organised. 9 00:00:46,989 --> 00:00:49,839 There'd be a few interviews and conversations to start the year. 10 00:00:50,429 --> 00:00:57,629 And so in this episode, we still have the lovely lilting Northern Irish accent of Pete Orr having a conversation with 11 00:00:57,949 --> 00:01:00,620 Tania Snowdon, which I'll tell you about in just a moment. 12 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,370 But first, a date for your diaries. 13 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:09,220 Our first Centre for Christian Living public event, which this year is going to be in a slightly different format. 14 00:01:09,220 --> 00:01:10,930 We're calling it an ethics workshop. 15 00:01:10,950 --> 00:01:16,119 Our first ethics workshop for the year will be on the 7th of May here at Moore College. 16 00:01:16,469 --> 00:01:17,750 It's a Wednesday night at 7:30. 17 00:01:18,050 --> 00:01:19,699 There'll be more details to come. 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:25,649 I'll just tell you at this stage that the topic is going to be “Neurodivergence and the Christian life”. 19 00:01:25,649 --> 00:01:30,749 We'll say more about that in the coming weeks, but put the 7th of May in your diary and plan to 20 00:01:30,749 --> 00:01:35,479 come to our first event here at Moore College for the Centre for Christian Living for 2025. 21 00:01:36,250 --> 00:01:41,479 But to this episode in which Peter Orr talks with Tania Snowdon. 22 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:49,710 Tania and her husband Mike spent quite a number of years on the mission field in Spain and have been back in Australia now for a few years. 23 00:01:50,180 --> 00:01:52,280 And so Tania is really well-equipped 24 00:01:52,455 --> 00:01:58,355 to share about the whole mission experience; to speak about why you would think about going and the whole decision 25 00:01:58,365 --> 00:02:04,005 about whether to go overseas; the choice of where to go and how that all works; the training that you receive 26 00:02:04,015 --> 00:02:10,445 before you go; what the experience is like when you arrive on the mission field and start to speak the gospel 27 00:02:10,665 --> 00:02:15,875 into a new culture and what that's like; how missionaries can be best supported by those of us 28 00:02:15,875 --> 00:02:21,315 who don't go overseas in mission; and interestingly, what it's like to come home from mission— 29 00:02:21,315 --> 00:02:24,624 the Snowdons have been back in Australia now for a few years, having come back from 30 00:02:24,625 --> 00:02:30,169 the mission field—and what it's like to return to your home culture and re-enter it; 31 00:02:30,220 --> 00:02:36,390 and how those of us who've been here all along can welcome and help missionaries who are returning from their overseas service. 32 00:02:36,770 --> 00:02:42,999 There's a lot that Tania has to share and to help us and encourage us with about the subject of mission and the Christian life. 33 00:02:43,690 --> 00:02:45,510 Here's Pete Orr with Tania Snowdon. 34 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:09,370 Welcome to Moore College's CCL podcast and today I'm joined by my friend Tania Snowdon who works for CMS and we're going to talk 35 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:16,550 a little bit about her journey into the mission field and what she does now. But first of all, Tania, welcome to the podcast. 36 00:03:16,780 --> 00:03:17,130 Thank you. 37 00:03:17,140 --> 00:03:17,860 It's good to be here. 38 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:21,630 Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, about your family background? 39 00:03:22,030 --> 00:03:22,399 Yeah. 40 00:03:22,459 --> 00:03:26,930 So I'm married to Mike and we have four boys. 41 00:03:27,349 --> 00:03:34,359 They all have red hair, their age spanning from the littlest one just out of kindergarten, our eldest just started high school. 42 00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:37,990 I've got a mom and a brother and a family of believers around the world. 43 00:03:38,475 --> 00:03:39,065 Fantastic. 44 00:03:39,365 --> 00:03:40,735 Can you tell us how you became a Christian? 45 00:03:41,055 --> 00:03:41,435 Yeah. 46 00:03:41,435 --> 00:03:46,794 So I lived with my mom and my dad and my brother growing up and mom and dad would 47 00:03:46,794 --> 00:03:51,475 say that they Christians and they tried to take us to church when I was little. 48 00:03:51,704 --> 00:03:52,615 I hated it. 49 00:03:52,985 --> 00:04:01,775 I remember once I tried to drain the car battery on a Saturday night because I knew if it had no battery, we couldn't go to church on a Sunday. 50 00:04:01,775 --> 00:04:02,915 So I was not keen. 51 00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:05,120 But then they stopped going. 52 00:04:05,210 --> 00:04:06,620 They didn't really like it either. 53 00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:08,820 Fast forward a few years. 54 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:12,490 When I was at high school in year 12, I went to an all girls high school. 55 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,880 So we heard that there was this thing called the Crusader study camp. 56 00:04:16,409 --> 00:04:17,860 So our parents were very keen. 57 00:04:17,870 --> 00:04:19,399 This is me and my group of friends. 58 00:04:19,769 --> 00:04:26,210 for us to go and study and we were very keen to go and meet some boys from the other high schools. 59 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:34,890 So in year 12, I went on this crusader study camp and I clearly remember they said pack a Bible, found a Gideon's Bible, threw that in. 60 00:04:35,060 --> 00:04:36,270 We get there every day. 61 00:04:36,270 --> 00:04:40,169 There are these talks from the Bible and the talks are on the minor prophets. 62 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:47,580 So my Gideon's Bible was useless, but I clearly remember being so struck by 63 00:04:47,630 --> 00:04:52,710 this God who I had thought was maybe real, but I figured I was nice enough. 64 00:04:53,290 --> 00:05:00,099 If he was real, that would all be fine in the end, but I was really struck by the book of Hosea in particular and how. 65 00:05:00,570 --> 00:05:08,750 God is described as this loving husband of a wife who is a prostitute who rejects him and goes after other men. 66 00:05:08,750 --> 00:05:16,060 And I had never understood both that God was so real and present and desperate for a relationship with his people. 67 00:05:16,599 --> 00:05:22,239 And I had never understood that by me ignoring him every day, that was essentially rejecting him. 68 00:05:23,305 --> 00:05:24,325 an adulterous wife. 69 00:05:24,755 --> 00:05:32,995 That camp turned my life upside down and I finally understood what the chapel services at school talking about Jesus were on about. 70 00:05:33,024 --> 00:05:37,755 Um, so I prayed and asked for forgiveness and that was high school for me. 71 00:05:37,765 --> 00:05:44,469 And I spent the first few years of uni a little bit confused, but ended up in a great church and grew from there. 72 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,620 And, uh, you ended up at Moore College, we overlapped at college, how did that journey happen? 73 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:56,500 Yeah, so I think I studied psychology at university, I spent my uni years, the first few a bit confused but God put 74 00:05:56,500 --> 00:06:03,140 these Christian people in my path and I went to their church, I think they thought I wasn't a Christian but I was. 75 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:09,560 Part of a Bible study, started reading the Bible for the first time and then got involved in all these Christian camps. 76 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,430 I finished university, did psychology, couldn't really find a job. 77 00:06:13,660 --> 00:06:18,190 So I spent these two years doing part time work, which freed me up to help out at scripture 78 00:06:18,190 --> 00:06:24,250 at school and run crusader camps and do youth ministry, which I didn't know was a thing. 79 00:06:24,250 --> 00:06:27,730 And I was opening the Bible with these 12 year old girls who are really keen. 80 00:06:27,730 --> 00:06:30,819 And I just thought, Oh, what is this life? 81 00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:33,790 And so I think I had just some good people. 82 00:06:34,335 --> 00:06:37,865 Encourage me to think about, could you do this with your whole life? 83 00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:41,705 I didn't have a 10 year plan, but I thought I love this. 84 00:06:41,734 --> 00:06:46,005 And so if people I trust think I could, maybe I'll investigate it. 85 00:06:46,005 --> 00:06:47,135 I did MTS at a church. 86 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:49,719 And I loved it. 87 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,060 And so after that really knew, yeah, I wanted some more training. 88 00:06:54,060 --> 00:07:03,659 And then I think I knew that I loved ministry, but I didn't really know even what I didn't know and really wanted some more years in the Bible. 89 00:07:03,679 --> 00:07:04,730 So you're okay. 90 00:07:05,030 --> 00:07:11,679 And you come to Moore College and a few years after Moore College, you're getting on a plane to go to Spain. 91 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,969 Just talk about how you got from one to the other. 92 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:17,899 Yeah, as I said, I did not have a 10 year plan. 93 00:07:17,949 --> 00:07:22,319 So I meet all these young people now who seem to have all these steps and they have 94 00:07:22,319 --> 00:07:26,500 this path and you hear about this pathway into ministry, and that was not me at all. 95 00:07:26,969 --> 00:07:35,360 So I somehow When I became a Christian, I had barely been a Christian for a year and I got invited to lead on this thing called CMS summer school. 96 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:44,320 And so I went along and we had all these infant age children, but I met all these missionaries and I did it every year for the next 10 years. 97 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,530 And so I think God really. 98 00:07:46,735 --> 00:07:50,405 kept just giving me these little injections about the world is bigger. 99 00:07:50,675 --> 00:07:51,655 The world is bigger. 100 00:07:52,145 --> 00:07:59,094 I also ended up when I did MTS, we took some of the youth from our church up to the Northern Territory to an Indigenous 101 00:07:59,115 --> 00:08:06,664 community and visited some missionaries there, met them, lived with them, realized they were just people who loved Jesus. 102 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:10,080 normal people living life in a different place. 103 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:19,390 And so I never had a plan or a great conviction to go at that point, but I think God kept, I guess, lifting the veil a bit to his world. 104 00:08:19,690 --> 00:08:22,149 And then when I was at college, I was in my final year. 105 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,229 I met this first year guy, uh, who was called Mike. 106 00:08:26,719 --> 00:08:27,560 He had a plan. 107 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,440 So his plan was to pursue going because not everyone does that. 108 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,100 So his plan was to pursue going. 109 00:08:34,434 --> 00:08:36,284 And stay, if there was a reason not to. 110 00:08:36,284 --> 00:08:41,375 So when we got married, I felt like God had been saying, well, I've exposed you to this over 111 00:08:41,475 --> 00:08:46,824 so many years, I had said, I'd be willing to go, but I'd never put my money where my mouth was. 112 00:08:46,835 --> 00:08:48,944 So that was a real crucial moment. 113 00:08:48,964 --> 00:08:54,954 And when we got married, we were sitting in summer school as you do, and we heard about these. 114 00:08:55,605 --> 00:09:02,195 Missionaries from Europe, most of them doing student work, and they kept saying how hard it was and how isolating it was. 115 00:09:02,565 --> 00:09:06,895 One guy had been walking around a campus for three months trying to find one person to talk to. 116 00:09:08,125 --> 00:09:09,535 And he didn't find that person. 117 00:09:09,535 --> 00:09:14,864 And so I remember just having that feeling in my gut going, I need to pray for these people. 118 00:09:15,844 --> 00:09:17,735 But also feeling like, ah. 119 00:09:18,185 --> 00:09:21,845 Maybe we need to go and work alongside them. 120 00:09:21,995 --> 00:09:29,075 So that's what started us having chats with CMS and somehow taking those little next steps. 121 00:09:31,935 --> 00:09:35,824 So interesting Europe sparked by that summer school session. 122 00:09:36,425 --> 00:09:42,114 Was there any particular reason that drew you to Spain or was that sort of the place in Europe that you could serve? 123 00:09:43,025 --> 00:09:43,954 That's a good question. 124 00:09:44,494 --> 00:09:48,704 Mike had randomly been in a prayer group for Spain once. 125 00:09:49,385 --> 00:09:52,725 And he also had a UK passport and this was before Brexit. 126 00:09:53,045 --> 00:09:58,344 So we knew his UK passport would get us into Europe and he'd been praying for Spain. 127 00:09:59,015 --> 00:10:02,064 The other factor for us was John and Joanie Lovell. 128 00:10:02,375 --> 00:10:08,625 So I went to college with John Lovell and in fourth year college, they did this big turnaround and we're headed to Spain. 129 00:10:09,045 --> 00:10:17,074 So we, I think knowing ourselves as people and hearing how isolating it was in Europe, our little desire was to go and work. 130 00:10:17,435 --> 00:10:24,755 At least in the vicinity of someone that we knew, not to be our own little bubble, but to support each other, to be there for the long term. 131 00:10:24,954 --> 00:10:28,135 So John was going to do some church planting there. 132 00:10:28,395 --> 00:10:30,385 Our heart was for Spanish youth. 133 00:10:30,704 --> 00:10:37,975 I guess just hearing how Spain as a country, that next generation of young people just didn't really have the chance to hear about Jesus. 134 00:10:37,975 --> 00:10:39,985 There weren't youth groups in churches. 135 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:41,130 Things like that. 136 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:48,819 So marrying all those things together and in the CMS process, God worked to end us in Spain. 137 00:10:49,339 --> 00:10:53,229 I guess many of us, when we think of Europe, when we think of Spain or Italy or France, 138 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:58,359 we think of a place that we go on holiday with beautiful beaches, sun, great food. 139 00:10:59,069 --> 00:11:01,540 What was it like actually living there? 140 00:11:01,579 --> 00:11:03,589 You know, what were your first few years like? 141 00:11:03,589 --> 00:11:07,699 We'll get onto this sort of spiritual dimension, but the actual practicalities of living in Spain. 142 00:11:08,275 --> 00:11:09,505 I mean, we did love it. 143 00:11:10,215 --> 00:11:14,795 So obviously Spain is not a hard place in terms of you have electricity and 144 00:11:14,795 --> 00:11:19,545 you have water, lots of missionaries are sent to places that are hard to live. 145 00:11:20,795 --> 00:11:22,165 We loved our time in Spain. 146 00:11:22,175 --> 00:11:23,645 So we did live in Valencia. 147 00:11:23,884 --> 00:11:27,605 So there was a beach nearby and there was great food. 148 00:11:27,955 --> 00:11:29,934 The day was quite different there. 149 00:11:29,935 --> 00:11:33,585 So you would get up a little bit later than in Australia. 150 00:11:34,060 --> 00:11:37,229 But you would have your main meal at two o'clock in the day. 151 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,030 Then you'd have a little break, then you'd go to a lot later at night. 152 00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:45,560 Like our Bible study would start at nine and then would finish and we'd have dinner after that. 153 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:54,030 That was a challenge at times, but I think the other quite different thing was, so we left with one baby, had three other boys over there. 154 00:11:54,030 --> 00:11:58,089 They start school really early in Spain, which I loved actually. 155 00:11:58,750 --> 00:12:03,650 So when you're turning three in that year, you start going to school, not pre school. 156 00:12:04,194 --> 00:12:05,444 School, full time school. 157 00:12:05,494 --> 00:12:09,715 So you're learning how to write and read, but that was quite different. 158 00:12:10,204 --> 00:12:13,235 But we actually loved getting to know the school community. 159 00:12:13,505 --> 00:12:15,365 That's a very different thing in Spain as well. 160 00:12:15,365 --> 00:12:21,599 We went to a little local school, so our kids did school in Spanish, and we felt like they were our family. 161 00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:23,150 family, the school. 162 00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:26,439 I'm still in touch with some of the teachers on WhatsApp. 163 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:34,990 I think in general, the biggest difference was that people had more time for relationships and they had more time for people. 164 00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:42,990 So you'd go out and you'd walk down the street and you'd run into people and you could stop and you can have a chat and it wasn't the heads down. 165 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,620 I've got to go to my next thing. 166 00:12:45,180 --> 00:12:46,480 I've got to get my kids to this. 167 00:12:46,925 --> 00:12:47,455 Soccer game. 168 00:12:47,455 --> 00:12:50,245 And then they've got this practice and life was just a slower 169 00:12:50,455 --> 00:12:50,725 pace. 170 00:12:50,845 --> 00:12:53,105 And the language, how did you go with the language? 171 00:12:53,135 --> 00:12:53,285 Yeah. 172 00:12:53,285 --> 00:12:54,085 It's a great question. 173 00:12:54,085 --> 00:13:00,254 When you first asked what it was like, our first impressions were we arrived and we couldn't say anything. 174 00:13:00,844 --> 00:13:02,665 So that was interesting. 175 00:13:03,385 --> 00:13:03,764 Yeah. 176 00:13:03,764 --> 00:13:05,764 We spent our first year learning Spanish. 177 00:13:05,795 --> 00:13:11,660 I was a tutor in our house and Yeah, I really miss speaking the language, actually. 178 00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:16,949 Yeah, it's not that, well, scratch that, I'm not going to say it, but it's not hard to learn. 179 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:17,560 It's easy. 180 00:13:17,779 --> 00:13:18,400 Yeah, it's easy. 181 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:19,990 Anyone could do it. 182 00:13:20,109 --> 00:13:24,760 Of all the languages, it at least has the same alphabet, right? 183 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:35,180 But yeah, I think when you go somewhere else, it's a real privilege to arrive and not be able to speak because It means you can't do anything. 184 00:13:35,180 --> 00:13:38,180 It means you have to watch, you have to listen first. 185 00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:44,439 You listen and you don't understand, but you can't go and be fully functional and make all the mistakes. 186 00:13:44,459 --> 00:13:48,690 Now, obviously we made a lot of mistakes, but I think the privilege of. 187 00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:56,040 Having at least a year just watching and learning and observing and people don't 188 00:13:56,070 --> 00:14:00,840 expect us to be running a ministry because we couldn't speak with them for a minute. 189 00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:06,150 That was really humbling and difficult because we knew we couldn't get to know people. 190 00:14:06,150 --> 00:14:07,179 They couldn't know us. 191 00:14:07,675 --> 00:14:15,804 But I also think, gosh, what a privilege to be weak and humble, humble in a forced sense, not because I'm so great, but in a forced 192 00:14:15,804 --> 00:14:23,254 way that was growing for me and for Mike in our characters, but also just really helpful before we started then trying to do things. 193 00:14:24,294 --> 00:14:28,155 So how long was it before you could start to actually do ministry? 194 00:14:29,185 --> 00:14:36,805 I do remember after six months, we went to Valencia because we started in Madrid to help run kids club. 195 00:14:37,405 --> 00:14:42,435 I don't know if I'd call that doing ministry because that was really hard and it was in English. 196 00:14:42,445 --> 00:14:46,765 I think, look, people ask how long did it take till we were fluent. 197 00:14:47,194 --> 00:14:48,495 I think that's a bit of a moot point. 198 00:14:48,524 --> 00:14:52,365 I'd say now I can talk to you in Spanish, but I'd still make mistakes. 199 00:14:53,025 --> 00:14:55,814 My preach is first sermon after 10 months. 200 00:14:57,115 --> 00:15:00,734 But he would say preaching a sermon was the easy part. 201 00:15:00,765 --> 00:15:05,615 It was the two minute conversation with someone at morning tea was the hard part. 202 00:15:05,615 --> 00:15:07,715 So it's a bit hard to answer the question. 203 00:15:08,395 --> 00:15:14,334 Well then just speaking more widely, you know, over time as you get more and more able to do more and more ministry, what did that actually look like? 204 00:15:14,335 --> 00:15:16,334 What did ministry look like in Valencia? 205 00:15:17,124 --> 00:15:22,584 So I said before we went with a heart for Spanish youth, but we also had no real job to go to. 206 00:15:24,194 --> 00:15:26,615 Thankfully, the IFES movement over there has. 207 00:15:27,105 --> 00:15:27,944 High school arm. 208 00:15:27,975 --> 00:15:32,535 So the GBU is the big group and they also have what's called GBE. 209 00:15:34,514 --> 00:15:35,984 So that's the high school arm. 210 00:15:36,425 --> 00:15:43,454 Eventually, after we had been there two and a half years, they asked us both to become staff workers full-time because why not? 211 00:15:43,755 --> 00:15:45,405 We didn't both do that. 212 00:15:45,405 --> 00:15:47,685 But Mike became a staff worker for the GBE. 213 00:15:48,395 --> 00:15:51,994 Now, that didn't involve going into high schools 'cause you're not allowed to, 214 00:15:52,324 --> 00:15:56,854 but it involved meeting up with the local Christian high school age students. 215 00:15:57,205 --> 00:16:02,205 Once a fortnight, we ran a bit of a combined youth group because most of the churches don't have youth groups. 216 00:16:02,635 --> 00:16:08,245 And the goal was to encourage the Christian kids in their faith to persevere, 217 00:16:08,615 --> 00:16:12,034 but also to encourage them, you can actually open the Bible with your friends. 218 00:16:12,485 --> 00:16:13,155 at school. 219 00:16:13,215 --> 00:16:17,585 You can start a group, even though we can't come in and do it for you, you can do that. 220 00:16:17,985 --> 00:16:21,235 And so that was the goal of the ministry across Spain. 221 00:16:21,244 --> 00:16:25,704 It's pretty small, not well resourced, but it's a great goal, right? 222 00:16:25,754 --> 00:16:28,865 Like Christian kids, they're the ones who are in the high school. 223 00:16:28,945 --> 00:16:30,094 They're the ones who are with their peers. 224 00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:33,260 What sort of fruit did you see? 225 00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:34,630 What were the joys of the ministry? 226 00:16:35,449 --> 00:16:39,709 I mean, essentially I was involved in that and also did a whole bunch of other stuff. 227 00:16:39,729 --> 00:16:44,090 But in terms of that ministry, we did see some kids start groups. 228 00:16:44,964 --> 00:16:48,344 In the city that we were in, I don't think that really took off. 229 00:16:48,354 --> 00:16:50,604 So it's hard, right? 230 00:16:50,765 --> 00:16:54,004 Lots of the high school students, they're the only Christian in their school. 231 00:16:54,754 --> 00:17:01,745 So if you don't have one other, it's really hard, but there was a national camp once a year, which was such an encouragement to the Christian kids. 232 00:17:02,385 --> 00:17:07,105 And there was a girl on that who we met very early on, and she had just become a Christian, all excited. 233 00:17:07,575 --> 00:17:10,615 And she realized, Oh, I'm the only Christian in my high school. 234 00:17:10,685 --> 00:17:15,724 But if I moved to this other high school, there's another Christian or two there. 235 00:17:16,265 --> 00:17:17,185 She goes home from the camp. 236 00:17:17,185 --> 00:17:21,715 She convinced her parents to let her change high schools and they somehow did. 237 00:17:22,005 --> 00:17:24,565 And so she then went to this new high school. 238 00:17:24,615 --> 00:17:27,665 It was really clear that she was a Christian from the start and she started a group 239 00:17:27,785 --> 00:17:32,535 and they started getting, I think in the end, about 20 kids along reading the Bible. 240 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:41,590 She's now at university, so she's in the Christian group there persevering, and so we saw a little snippet of that happening across the country. 241 00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:14,120 Do you want to deepen your knowledge of God's word or increase in confidence as you teach the Bible to others? 242 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:21,260 For over 60 years, the PTC—Moore College's Preliminary Theological Certificate—has been helping believers 243 00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:26,000 discover the riches of God's word and grow their understanding of the foundations of the Christian faith. 244 00:18:26,865 --> 00:18:32,754 The PTC has been fundamental in the transformation of people, churches and communities across the world. 245 00:18:33,274 --> 00:18:37,024 If you are looking for a biblically sound course that is both flexible and affordable, 246 00:18:37,304 --> 00:18:42,234 find out more about the online or correspondence options, and even try a sample lesson. 247 00:18:42,625 --> 00:18:48,549 Visit moore.edu.au/ptc. 248 00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:53,215 That's moore.edu.au/ptc. 249 00:18:53,545 --> 00:18:55,615 And now let's get back to our program. 250 00:18:56,045 --> 00:18:57,195 Wonderful to see that. 251 00:18:57,265 --> 00:19:02,005 But over your time, there must have been setbacks and challenges and discouragements. 252 00:19:02,045 --> 00:19:03,205 What were some of those? 253 00:19:03,895 --> 00:19:04,355 Yeah. 254 00:19:05,334 --> 00:19:06,505 Look, it's a different place. 255 00:19:06,515 --> 00:19:14,484 So the church that we went to, John Lovell was our minister, so we had a fairly reformed, good preaching every week. 256 00:19:14,844 --> 00:19:15,655 So that was great. 257 00:19:16,315 --> 00:19:24,084 But if you think about the history of that church, when he arrived The minister before him, well, they hadn't had one for five years before him. 258 00:19:24,094 --> 00:19:28,784 He was a missionary sent from, I think, Latin America, who was basically ungodly 259 00:19:28,784 --> 00:19:35,045 and did a lot of bad things before that the guy in place was just really liberal. 260 00:19:35,085 --> 00:19:37,335 And so the guitar is of the devil. 261 00:19:37,984 --> 00:19:41,975 John sat in church one week and heard how it was Easter. 262 00:19:42,324 --> 00:19:44,625 Jesus didn't really rise from the dead, things like that. 263 00:19:44,634 --> 00:19:47,205 So it's got a Catholic heritage. 264 00:19:47,774 --> 00:19:52,834 But people are very suspicious of religion, partly because of the dictator, I think. 265 00:19:52,905 --> 00:19:55,485 There's just lots of baggage there to do with the church. 266 00:19:56,225 --> 00:20:02,034 So in terms of the setbacks, I think the liberal theology was still around. 267 00:20:02,124 --> 00:20:10,505 We did have a guy at our church who was fairly involved, but would post the opposite of the sermon on Facebook the next day. 268 00:20:10,885 --> 00:20:13,205 Just really didn't believe that the Bible was the word of God. 269 00:20:13,535 --> 00:20:14,155 Things like that. 270 00:20:14,185 --> 00:20:14,925 That was hard. 271 00:20:15,435 --> 00:20:16,845 I think Spain is known. 272 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:19,320 It's hard for missionaries. 273 00:20:19,550 --> 00:20:26,330 So we did see a lot of other people in ministry burn out and leave for different reasons. 274 00:20:26,340 --> 00:20:27,569 That was also really hard. 275 00:20:28,059 --> 00:20:33,150 We saw Christians at university give up their faith and that's a discrepancy everywhere. 276 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:39,040 But I think It's just the hard ground and it takes a long time to build trust with people. 277 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:46,939 So watching other people, workers who'd been there for 10 years, 15 years, kind of damaged by that, I believe that was hard. 278 00:20:47,259 --> 00:20:52,260 In terms of Christians that you met in church and other contexts, what did you learn from Spanish 279 00:20:52,260 --> 00:20:56,599 Christians, particularly where you thought, Oh, this is different to what we see in Australia. 280 00:20:57,289 --> 00:20:59,059 I think the main difference. 281 00:20:59,540 --> 00:21:01,330 comes back to a cultural difference. 282 00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:07,340 So the way that people have more time for people, I think that plays itself out in the church. 283 00:21:07,860 --> 00:21:08,390 as well. 284 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,800 So there's just an expectation. 285 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,179 We would often have lunch on Sunday. 286 00:21:13,580 --> 00:21:16,000 Every week after church, you can go out in Spain. 287 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,119 That's another thing I didn't mention really cheap food to go out. 288 00:21:19,889 --> 00:21:22,649 So every Sunday we'd just be like, well, we're going out for lunch. 289 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:23,270 Come along. 290 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,250 Who wants to come along? 291 00:21:24,569 --> 00:21:29,879 And just like continuing in relationships over food over time. 292 00:21:30,219 --> 00:21:31,809 We had a guy visit our church. 293 00:21:31,819 --> 00:21:32,769 He was really surprised. 294 00:21:32,779 --> 00:21:33,619 He was from America. 295 00:21:34,250 --> 00:21:38,230 You go out for a work lunch, and after 45 minutes you're like, right, okay, like, 296 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:42,840 I've got to go, and the Spanish person would be like, what are you talking about? 297 00:21:42,860 --> 00:21:46,070 Like, this is not, this doesn't exist. 298 00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:50,339 And they have a word for the conversation you have once you've eaten your food. 299 00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:51,459 You sit at the table. 300 00:21:52,205 --> 00:21:55,195 for another half hour, hour, and you talk. 301 00:21:55,655 --> 00:22:00,104 There's a word for that in the language, because it's so valued, right? 302 00:22:00,124 --> 00:22:04,935 So I think I've learned that from Christian friends there, that trust takes a long time to build. 303 00:22:05,215 --> 00:22:10,265 But I think in Christian community, the way you share life with people, it comes with a lot of time. 304 00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:11,550 That's wonderful. 305 00:22:11,629 --> 00:22:20,450 So it sounds like not necessarily always easy, but some significant ministry, some growing Christian friendships and relationships, important 306 00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:28,060 work that you're both doing, but you came to the point where you decided to come back, and I know that wasn't necessarily an easy decision. 307 00:22:28,149 --> 00:22:29,994 Can you tell us about that decision? 308 00:22:30,155 --> 00:22:30,584 Yeah. 309 00:22:30,584 --> 00:22:36,245 So we, in the start of 2020, we went back to Spain for our third term. 310 00:22:36,395 --> 00:22:41,294 People often say in the mission world, the third term, that's when you can start to do ministry. 311 00:22:41,314 --> 00:22:46,724 So by a term, I mean, three years, we've been there for already six or seven going back. 312 00:22:46,764 --> 00:22:47,764 We were so ready. 313 00:22:47,815 --> 00:22:51,945 We were, we've got the language essentially, we've got relationships. 314 00:22:53,030 --> 00:22:57,170 The GBE ministry, we're a part of that, all these ideas, then COVID hit. 315 00:22:57,650 --> 00:22:59,860 That was one thing, but that didn't bring us back. 316 00:22:59,860 --> 00:23:05,389 We lived that in Spain, which is another whole conversation, but then the next 317 00:23:05,389 --> 00:23:11,919 year, June, 2021, I've got a call from my dad, but diagnosed with terminal cancer. 318 00:23:12,609 --> 00:23:18,870 So we had thought before we left for Spain, you count the cost and you work out what are the factors, what are the obstacles? 319 00:23:19,450 --> 00:23:25,240 What might bring us back if we had to, and we had known, given where my dad was in the family, my 320 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,799 mum's got some health problems, my brother has a disability, my dad was really looking after them. 321 00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:37,580 So if anything happened to any of our parents, That would be a consideration, but him in particular, which in the end was a kindness of God. 322 00:23:37,580 --> 00:23:45,379 We weren't expecting that to happen to him, but it was a very clear diagnosis and it was a very clear person within the family. 323 00:23:45,389 --> 00:23:50,429 So we fairly quickly knew that we'd have to come back. 324 00:23:50,639 --> 00:23:53,170 This was in the time when you couldn't come back to Australia. 325 00:23:53,170 --> 00:23:55,139 So that was complicated in and of itself. 326 00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:57,260 Stuff in Spain had opened up. 327 00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:06,800 We were really excited to be there, but God made it so clear, which I'm so thankful for, that it was time and it was good and right for us too. 328 00:24:07,469 --> 00:24:09,129 And how has it been coming back? 329 00:24:09,129 --> 00:24:13,820 I know often some missionaries can find that even harder than actually going onto the field in the first place. 330 00:24:14,609 --> 00:24:14,869 Yeah. 331 00:24:14,869 --> 00:24:16,259 I would change your sum to. 332 00:24:17,354 --> 00:24:24,965 99 percent of all the people I talk to now and all the research, most people would find that the hardest of the 333 00:24:24,965 --> 00:24:32,005 transitions, partly because you spend a lot of time preparing to go and you invest, especially with CMS, a lot of 334 00:24:32,005 --> 00:24:39,974 time and thought and conversation and years, usually people coming back, it's much quicker turned around and it's not. 335 00:24:40,749 --> 00:24:42,090 Often what you planned for. 336 00:24:42,990 --> 00:24:44,929 So it's been challenging. 337 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,750 The situation with my family is hard. 338 00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:52,269 My dad passed away, but I said earlier that my parents weren't believers by God's grace. 339 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:57,059 They came to faith 20 years ago, and I have absolutely no doubt that he is with 340 00:24:57,060 --> 00:25:01,930 Jesus, which is such a comfort and that my mom and my brother have a solid faith. 341 00:25:02,814 --> 00:25:04,235 So that's amazing. 342 00:25:04,865 --> 00:25:10,675 It's hard to come back though when our hearts were in Spain and for our kids, that's what they knew. 343 00:25:11,205 --> 00:25:17,304 So we bring them back here, they're in one school for six months, then we have to move them to another part of Sydney, they're in another school. 344 00:25:18,124 --> 00:25:24,985 So it's been difficult, but God's been really kind just in the timing of everything, providing more than what we need. 345 00:25:25,585 --> 00:25:31,475 The Lovells were a very good support to us in Spain and he kindly brought them back to Australia before us. 346 00:25:32,035 --> 00:25:33,085 So it's been difficult. 347 00:25:33,550 --> 00:25:41,220 And church is different and that busyness of people is, you know, a challenge, but God's been good. 348 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,690 So what does life look like now for you? 349 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,320 Well, we've got four kids, so that's a little bit of time. 350 00:25:48,929 --> 00:25:52,109 Also, I go out to see my mum a couple of times a week. 351 00:25:52,750 --> 00:25:53,210 Help out. 352 00:25:53,210 --> 00:26:03,170 So yeah, my dad's been gone for about a year, so we're still navigating through all of that, but the most fun thing I get to do is my job at CMS. 353 00:26:03,679 --> 00:26:09,350 So I work with inquirers in the inquiry space, we call it, which initially sounds a bit weird, right? 354 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,100 It's such a weird word, inquirers. 355 00:26:11,415 --> 00:26:16,835 I'm in the inquiry space, but now I have understood after doing the job for 18 months, it's a great 356 00:26:16,875 --> 00:26:23,225 title because people come to me or to CMS and they're inquiring, is this something I should do? 357 00:26:23,715 --> 00:26:24,514 What do you think? 358 00:26:24,975 --> 00:26:27,375 We are then inquiring of them, like, who are you? 359 00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:28,684 Who's God made you to be? 360 00:26:29,290 --> 00:26:36,310 Altogether, we're inquiring of the fellowship and of God, and it is a real question asking time to discern what the path is. 361 00:26:37,060 --> 00:26:43,400 What are some of the factors that you help people think through in terms of whether they should consider going to the mission field? 362 00:26:43,879 --> 00:26:45,019 Yeah, it's a good question. 363 00:26:45,239 --> 00:26:48,860 One that I'm constantly thinking about, it depends where people are up to. 364 00:26:48,979 --> 00:26:54,004 So the great thing about my job is within the first few months I've met with uni students. 365 00:26:54,524 --> 00:26:55,975 up to retirees. 366 00:26:56,284 --> 00:26:58,225 So everyone's life is different. 367 00:26:58,225 --> 00:27:03,175 So we've just sent someone to France who is retired and that's what she's doing with her retirement. 368 00:27:03,915 --> 00:27:12,964 So I think what we're really on about is who God has made someone to be and how solid their relationship with him is. 369 00:27:13,025 --> 00:27:16,264 I mean, that's first and foremost, what we're keen to see. 370 00:27:16,264 --> 00:27:18,315 So anyone who wants to think about mission. 371 00:27:18,909 --> 00:27:25,310 relationship with Jesus, living that out, living out the truth that you know, like that's fundamental. 372 00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:27,180 Beyond that, there are also some others. 373 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,320 I think having a conviction to go would be the next one that I would count. 374 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:40,990 Because I think lots of us, we know in our heads, yeah mission is good, the world's important, God wants people to know Jesus. 375 00:27:41,715 --> 00:27:49,295 CMS, a world that knows Jesus, we say the words and sometimes people might think, Oh, well then maybe I should think 376 00:27:49,305 --> 00:27:55,034 about going, but there has to be a heart, it has to be a conviction and a desire that God has placed there to go. 377 00:27:55,195 --> 00:27:58,564 Because if you go, you're going to need that to stay. 378 00:27:59,195 --> 00:28:05,975 I think humility, teachability, lots of the things that you might consider, should I do ministry full time? 379 00:28:05,985 --> 00:28:07,225 It's the same things. 380 00:28:08,114 --> 00:28:15,455 It's just that when you go, you're going to be sent by people, but it's also going to be, in one sense, more isolating. 381 00:28:15,965 --> 00:28:21,490 The higher stress will mean that your sin and your temptation and It's all heightened in your marriage. 382 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:22,480 How is that going? 383 00:28:22,490 --> 00:28:26,520 How are you going loving your wife or your husband? 384 00:28:26,530 --> 00:28:29,169 How are you going with loving and caring for your kids? 385 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:32,790 Or if you're single, how much do you desire a relationship? 386 00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:34,860 All those things to consider. 387 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,090 So it's basically character, but the conviction is. 388 00:28:38,909 --> 00:28:42,099 Obviously most of us listening won't end up on the mission field, but. 389 00:28:44,965 --> 00:28:51,735 Can you speak to the importance of supporting those from our churches and friends who've gone and how 390 00:28:51,735 --> 00:28:55,724 much that meant to you when you were on the mission field, the active support of Christians back home? 391 00:28:55,904 --> 00:28:56,544 Yes. 392 00:28:56,605 --> 00:28:56,995 Yes. 393 00:28:57,015 --> 00:28:57,955 I really can. 394 00:28:58,595 --> 00:28:59,275 Because. 395 00:28:59,965 --> 00:29:02,025 I mean, it's just fundamental. 396 00:29:02,185 --> 00:29:08,695 And I think if I'm honest, I think lots of churches in Sydney, we do well at saying it's important. 397 00:29:09,365 --> 00:29:17,874 And I wonder if those words don't always translate into a real heart of the people in the pews for that person who goes. 398 00:29:17,895 --> 00:29:20,775 So the thing I love about CMS is that we're a fellowship. 399 00:29:20,805 --> 00:29:23,440 So we all Send the missionary. 400 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,109 It's not us as an organization. 401 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,400 It's actually every person. 402 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:34,909 So at summer school, those 3000 people sending the missionary, we would not have survived without the prayers of people praying for us. 403 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:41,030 I just know that I went through times where it was hard to pray or, you know, where I just, I know that 404 00:29:41,030 --> 00:29:48,584 Mike and I, we were not fully leaning on the Lord, which is so important, but I know that there was. 405 00:29:49,045 --> 00:29:54,855 Chocolate people back in Australia doing that the way that our kids were loved and supported. 406 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,120 That was just fundamental as well. 407 00:29:57,330 --> 00:30:03,630 When people would send a little reply to our prayer letters, that was really encouraging because you kind of dread writing them. 408 00:30:04,060 --> 00:30:09,450 You know, it's important, but it's so key to just remember that the people who 409 00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:13,589 stay, they're not just staying because it's default, they're actually sending. 410 00:30:13,589 --> 00:30:15,349 So it's an active partnership. 411 00:30:15,979 --> 00:30:22,210 What I loved is when I came back to Australia three years earlier, we had told the story about this girl, Sarah. 412 00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:25,150 Someone at summer school, three years later, came up to me. 413 00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:25,800 I didn't know them. 414 00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:27,920 I said, Oh, now how's Sada? 415 00:30:28,930 --> 00:30:30,590 And that was amazing. 416 00:30:30,750 --> 00:30:36,070 Not just for me, but then when I could go back to Spain and tell Sada, like, so it's not just 417 00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:39,800 you're partnering with the missionary, you're partnering with brothers and sisters there. 418 00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:40,890 So it's a real thing. 419 00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:41,710 Wonderful. 420 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,100 Tania, that's so encouraging. 421 00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:51,450 Uh, thankful to God for how he used you and Mike in Spain, but also back here and really great and encouraging to hear all of that. 422 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:52,610 So thanks for being on the podcast. 423 00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:53,440 No worries. 424 00:31:08,610 --> 00:31:13,420 Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Centre for Christian Living podcast from Moore College. 425 00:31:13,890 --> 00:31:18,240 For a whole lot more from the Centre for Christian Living, just head over to the CCL website. 426 00:31:18,270 --> 00:31:19,350 That's 427 00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:19,369 ccl. 428 00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:20,420 moore. 429 00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:21,390 edu. 430 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,699 au, where you'll find a stack of resources, including every past podcast episode all the way 431 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:33,710 back to 2017, videos from our live events, and articles that we've published through the Centre. 432 00:31:34,350 --> 00:31:38,070 And while you're there, on the website, we also have an opportunity for you to make a 433 00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:42,920 tax deductible donation to support the ongoing work of the Centre here at Moore College. 434 00:31:43,530 --> 00:31:51,510 We'd also love you to subscribe to the podcast and to leave a review so that people can discover our podcast and their other resources. 435 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,280 And we always love and benefit from receiving your feedback and questions. 436 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,360 Please get in touch. 437 00:31:57,639 --> 00:32:00,910 You can email us at ccl@moore. 438 00:32:01,170 --> 00:32:01,650 edu. 439 00:32:02,765 --> 00:32:02,795 au. 440 00:32:03,225 --> 00:32:09,045 Many thanks to Karen Beilharz from the Communications Team here at Moore College for all her work in transcribing and 441 00:32:09,075 --> 00:32:16,495 editing and producing this podcast, to James West for the music, and to you dear listeners, for joining us each week. 442 00:32:16,555 --> 00:32:17,395 Thank you for listening. 443 00:32:17,835 --> 00:32:18,855 I'm Tony Payne. 444 00:32:19,065 --> 00:32:19,725 Bye for now.