1 00:00:00,070 --> 00:00:07,680 As Christians, we know that evangelism is important, but I imagine that most of us as Christians feel that we're not very good at evangelism. 2 00:00:07,890 --> 00:00:10,340 We feel that we don't do enough evangelism. 3 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:21,110 In this podcast episode, I'm speaking with Dave Jensen, who works as an evangelist, and he's going to help us to think about how we can increase 4 00:00:21,185 --> 00:00:29,994 in our fervour for evangelism and our ability for evangelism, I find it a really helpful, encouraging conversation and I hope that you do too. 5 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,914 Welcome to Moore College's Centre for Christian Living podcast. 6 00:00:47,954 --> 00:00:48,664 I'm Peter Orr. 7 00:00:48,965 --> 00:00:54,034 Today I'm very pleased to be joined by my friend Dave Jensen. 8 00:00:54,034 --> 00:00:55,345 Dave, welcome to the podcast. 9 00:00:55,345 --> 00:00:56,025 Thank you very much, Peter. 10 00:00:56,045 --> 00:00:56,635 I'm a bit upset. 11 00:00:56,645 --> 00:00:58,985 Am I the last Jensen in my family to be interviewed here? 12 00:00:59,235 --> 00:01:01,885 Well, to be fair, I've interviewed your brother, Michael. 13 00:01:01,905 --> 00:01:04,135 I haven't worked through the, Oh, you haven't done the others. 14 00:01:04,175 --> 00:01:05,205 I haven't done the others. 15 00:01:05,265 --> 00:01:05,945 Oh, you're building up. 16 00:01:06,265 --> 00:01:06,655 You're going up. 17 00:01:06,735 --> 00:01:08,135 Start at the bottom, run up. 18 00:01:08,184 --> 00:01:08,855 I understand. 19 00:01:08,875 --> 00:01:09,974 Well, I'm delighted to be here. 20 00:01:09,974 --> 00:01:10,454 Thanks for having me. 21 00:01:10,905 --> 00:01:14,175 Dave, you at the moment work for evangelism and new churches. 22 00:01:14,175 --> 00:01:21,474 We're going to talk a little bit about evangelism, but you obviously grew up in a Christian home, a high profile Christian home. 23 00:01:22,135 --> 00:01:25,865 But you spent some time really walking away from the Lord. 24 00:01:26,455 --> 00:01:31,259 What was it that triggered that drift away from Christ in your own life? 25 00:01:31,804 --> 00:01:34,005 Yeah, there was two things. 26 00:01:34,054 --> 00:01:36,295 The first one was that I would not, uh, Christian. 27 00:01:37,030 --> 00:01:38,630 And that was the hard reality of it. 28 00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:44,290 Now, fascinatingly, I'm a twin and my twin sister has never known a day, not being a Christian, which just 29 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:50,840 reaffirms continually the go to passage for us in evangelism 2 Corinthians 4, that it's God who opens blind eyes. 30 00:01:51,170 --> 00:01:57,450 And if you're not a believer that the God of this age, the devil has actually blinded your eyes, and that means that the gospel. 31 00:01:57,825 --> 00:02:03,915 Is really in that language Paul uses just about being an odour that it will not get through now in many 32 00:02:03,915 --> 00:02:10,675 senses I say all that not to abdicate responsibility But rather to say my journey away from Christianity 33 00:02:10,695 --> 00:02:17,675 was entirely narcissistic Built around a desire for praise and adulation and self contentment and happiness. 34 00:02:17,675 --> 00:02:22,425 I never would have considered it in those ways Thankfully, my family are wonderful people wonderful 35 00:02:22,425 --> 00:02:28,285 Christians And that meant, I think, one of the key parts that contributed to me never hating Christianity. 36 00:02:28,285 --> 00:02:29,385 I never hated God. 37 00:02:29,915 --> 00:02:34,335 In fact, I always identified as a Christian a little bit on census forms. 38 00:02:34,345 --> 00:02:36,535 And if someone had asked you, you know, are you a Christian? 39 00:02:36,545 --> 00:02:37,525 You would have said yes. 40 00:02:37,585 --> 00:02:40,225 Or would you have known enough to know that you weren't actually a Christian? 41 00:02:40,355 --> 00:02:41,454 It depends who I was talking to. 42 00:02:41,855 --> 00:02:45,845 If I was talking to a Christian, I would have been like, Oh, if I was talking to a non Christian, 43 00:02:45,845 --> 00:02:49,884 I would have said, yeah, Chris, my religion's Christian and your religion's Christian and whatever. 44 00:02:50,134 --> 00:02:55,685 But I knew that I wasn't like, I knew that I wasn't because I knew what a Christian was and that wasn't me. 45 00:02:56,245 --> 00:02:57,885 And so as time went on. 46 00:02:58,105 --> 00:03:00,025 That meant my life went a particular trajectory. 47 00:03:00,025 --> 00:03:07,195 My late teens became a father, joined the Australian army, uh, a bunch of years and served as an infantry officer around Australia. 48 00:03:07,465 --> 00:03:09,085 And it was really there. 49 00:03:09,085 --> 00:03:10,825 I went through a divorce, a bunch of things happened. 50 00:03:10,875 --> 00:03:13,795 But if you fast forwarded my life to the age of 28. 51 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:17,440 I probably hadn't thought about God for five years, six years. 52 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,230 My life wasn't terrible at all. 53 00:03:19,230 --> 00:03:20,090 It wasn't collapsing. 54 00:03:20,090 --> 00:03:20,980 I've been divorced for years. 55 00:03:20,980 --> 00:03:22,160 It wasn't this horrible thing. 56 00:03:22,449 --> 00:03:23,540 I was a captain in the army. 57 00:03:23,540 --> 00:03:27,590 I was playing a lot of footy, uh, doing the things I wanted to do, but that was the problem. 58 00:03:27,789 --> 00:03:29,770 I think I just had never paused to think about it. 59 00:03:29,810 --> 00:03:34,430 And when I did, I realized, hold on, how come no matter what I do. 60 00:03:34,730 --> 00:03:38,650 I'm insatiably desiring more, I wasn't more, more, more. 61 00:03:39,110 --> 00:03:43,070 Is it possible that there's more to life than what I'm first considering? 62 00:03:43,070 --> 00:03:46,250 And that led me to investigate Christianity and become a Christian. 63 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:53,370 So the trigger was the sense of as much as you had a good life and you had everything that you could want, there was something lacking. 64 00:03:54,120 --> 00:04:00,320 And then you say investigating Christianity, growing up in a Christian home, you'd be taught the Bible probably every day. 65 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,529 So what did investigating Christianity mean for someone who probably could 66 00:04:04,530 --> 00:04:08,680 have articulated the gospel and many doctrines better than a lot of Christians? 67 00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:09,790 That is a wonderful question. 68 00:04:10,645 --> 00:04:12,859 Because it strikes right at the core of what happened. 69 00:04:13,385 --> 00:04:16,125 What happened was, I woke up one morning, I began to think about it. 70 00:04:16,535 --> 00:04:21,184 My sister, my twin, had given me an old laptop, which had sermons logged on it that I couldn't delete. 71 00:04:21,635 --> 00:04:23,595 It was just the most irritating form of evangelism. 72 00:04:23,795 --> 00:04:24,954 She'd do this thing all the time. 73 00:04:24,955 --> 00:04:25,955 She's like a mosquito. 74 00:04:26,665 --> 00:04:27,735 Mosquito evangelism. 75 00:04:28,315 --> 00:04:31,035 And I watched a couple of sermons. 76 00:04:31,525 --> 00:04:32,395 I was living in Darwin. 77 00:04:32,755 --> 00:04:35,565 And these sermons very clearly articulated the gospel. 78 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:46,609 God made it, we broke it, Jesus fixed it, in a very clear way, and yet no clearer than I had heard every single day, and yet! 79 00:04:47,004 --> 00:04:48,764 For the first time, I got it. 80 00:04:49,054 --> 00:04:51,584 And what it was that I initially got was my sin. 81 00:04:52,184 --> 00:04:53,704 Sin had never been an issue for me at all. 82 00:04:53,714 --> 00:04:54,844 I'd never considered it, really. 83 00:04:54,844 --> 00:04:56,874 I felt guilty, but that wasn't sin. 84 00:04:57,274 --> 00:04:58,434 I just felt guilty about being caught. 85 00:04:58,784 --> 00:05:05,994 As I began to think on that day, it was, Oh my goodness, the conviction of sin and the desperation of my plight before God. 86 00:05:06,334 --> 00:05:12,314 And then I called someone I knew who was a Christian who took me to Romans five, six to eight, that Jesus died while I was a sinner. 87 00:05:12,694 --> 00:05:15,684 And so for the first time ever, I understood the cross and the resurrection. 88 00:05:15,694 --> 00:05:18,834 And it's interesting, as you say, I could, the catechisms, the so on and so forth. 89 00:05:18,834 --> 00:05:19,624 I could have said the gospel. 90 00:05:19,624 --> 00:05:21,244 I taught Sunday school as a teenager. 91 00:05:21,244 --> 00:05:22,344 I did all these sort of things. 92 00:05:22,689 --> 00:05:26,509 And yet it wasn't until I was converted that I realized I wasn't a Christian's monkey ever. 93 00:05:26,609 --> 00:05:28,229 Like I'd never understood the gospel. 94 00:05:28,499 --> 00:05:32,989 And now that is a wonderful affirming truth, which we can discuss later about me as an evangelist to know 95 00:05:33,269 --> 00:05:39,599 there's no second part of the gospel or the secret truth that you've got to show someone it's the same old story. 96 00:05:39,859 --> 00:05:45,979 And when God illuminates minds and his spirit opened eyes, that's how people are saved. 97 00:05:46,189 --> 00:05:46,909 So that's how it happened. 98 00:05:47,704 --> 00:05:49,004 And then you become a Christian. 99 00:05:49,024 --> 00:05:53,514 I'm curious, all of that Christian truth, did it suddenly become activated? 100 00:05:53,515 --> 00:05:58,224 Did it suddenly become like, Oh no, all this stuff that I've known all my life, it now makes sense. 101 00:05:58,254 --> 00:06:03,274 Or did you feel like you were just a baby and you were having to learn everything from scratch? 102 00:06:03,514 --> 00:06:04,244 Yes and no. 103 00:06:04,574 --> 00:06:10,324 There was certainly a sense of, Oh, now that meant, for example, immediately with evangelism, use that. 104 00:06:10,619 --> 00:06:14,059 I knew immediately the moment I became a Christian, I have to tell everyone I know of it. 105 00:06:14,789 --> 00:06:16,889 Number one, I know that because I've been taught that my whole life. 106 00:06:17,099 --> 00:06:20,159 But number two, Oh, I really now know that this is the most important thing. 107 00:06:20,159 --> 00:06:20,709 So think about that. 108 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:27,779 And I knew other things, you know, just a bit, obviously the Bible, the differences, many of the things that I would not be publicly ignorant. 109 00:06:28,209 --> 00:06:30,979 However, very quickly I realized I was like a baby. 110 00:06:30,979 --> 00:06:32,069 I was like everyone else. 111 00:06:32,289 --> 00:06:32,829 It was almost like. 112 00:06:33,344 --> 00:06:39,874 I'll use cricket as an analogy in cricket, you learn the game by playing the game, not by reading it. 113 00:06:40,384 --> 00:06:43,874 Now you can read as much as you want, but that doesn't mean you're going to become a great cricketer. 114 00:06:44,614 --> 00:06:45,844 The only way to do that is to play it. 115 00:06:45,894 --> 00:06:51,834 And it was like that, that, Oh, I had head knowledge, but it wasn't until I became a Christian that I realized. 116 00:06:52,229 --> 00:06:58,859 That's meaningless unless it's applied to what it tells me about the real true God who I now know and my own life. 117 00:06:58,859 --> 00:07:01,729 And so I realized, Oh, those things really feel by the wayside. 118 00:07:01,769 --> 00:07:10,019 I had to start like everyone else who becomes a Christian on my knees before God and up, down, up, down, falling short, failing, falling short. 119 00:07:10,229 --> 00:07:12,079 And that's continued now, of course, on and on. 120 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:14,239 But yeah, so it was, that was very helpful. 121 00:07:14,239 --> 00:07:15,669 It connected a lot of dots quickly. 122 00:07:16,034 --> 00:07:20,684 The process of living as a Christian was the same process as it is, I think, for everyone who becomes a Christian. 123 00:07:21,514 --> 00:07:27,034 It must have been a very sweet phone call, calling your parents and your sister to tell them that you've become a Christian. 124 00:07:27,224 --> 00:07:34,524 Yeah, I actually saved the news for when I was on leave, two weeks later I was in Sydney and it was sweet, although 125 00:07:34,604 --> 00:07:41,264 Peter, you know, we are highly reserved middle class Australians and having any emotion is very, very difficult. 126 00:07:41,294 --> 00:07:42,984 Even thinking about it makes me uncomfortable. 127 00:07:43,489 --> 00:07:47,309 But yes, I had to, for the first time, and only time, be emotional with my parents. 128 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:51,239 It was very, no, it was a beautiful time, and that's just continued. 129 00:07:51,929 --> 00:07:55,319 How long did you spend in the army after you became a Christian, and how was that? 130 00:07:55,319 --> 00:07:58,269 I imagine the army would be a challenging place for a Christian. 131 00:07:58,909 --> 00:08:02,379 Yeah, I stayed in the army for, I think, roughly another three years. 132 00:08:02,709 --> 00:08:06,239 It was a very challenging place for a Christian, which is funny because there's chaplains in the army. 133 00:08:07,499 --> 00:08:14,469 It's really also a very, well, at the time, certainly, a very masculine, macho, and often degenerate type culture. 134 00:08:15,059 --> 00:08:20,079 Alcohol, promiscuity, violence, those things are par for the course often for soldiers, and they were for me. 135 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:23,059 And also that religion in general is viewed with suspicion. 136 00:08:23,239 --> 00:08:27,019 So there's a bunch of nicknames for Christians and others in the army that were used. 137 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:27,459 So. 138 00:08:27,844 --> 00:08:28,624 It was interesting. 139 00:08:28,624 --> 00:08:36,894 I think it was a great exposure to the complexities and difficulties that evangelism produces because I was full of zeal and I wasn't a coward. 140 00:08:37,014 --> 00:08:42,194 I was very quick to tell people, and yet I faced rejection, severe rejection quickly. 141 00:08:42,514 --> 00:08:45,239 And That was incredibly discouraging. 142 00:08:45,699 --> 00:08:49,819 And yet I also, in God's grace, saw one or two of my friends become Christians. 143 00:08:50,109 --> 00:08:52,269 And that meant I was able to persevere. 144 00:08:52,709 --> 00:08:58,759 I think this is one of the huge issues that we face in evangelism is that the vast majority of us, 145 00:08:58,889 --> 00:09:02,089 most of us hardly ever see anyone become a Christian in front of our eyes or anything like that. 146 00:09:02,129 --> 00:09:03,309 We might see people at church. 147 00:09:03,659 --> 00:09:12,049 So I was able to see it and it was this very addictive, encouraging thing that spurred me on, but it was very hard. 148 00:09:12,409 --> 00:09:18,399 And in hindsight, I think I remember giving a Bible to someone, one of the first things I gave someone a Bible, he said, what should I read? 149 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:20,809 And I said, Oh, the book of Romans is my favorite book. 150 00:09:21,779 --> 00:09:25,909 Anyway, he came in the next day, true, he came in the next day and he threw the Bible at my head. 151 00:09:26,189 --> 00:09:27,869 He said, this is about circumcision. 152 00:09:29,599 --> 00:09:30,659 And I was just like, is it? 153 00:09:31,649 --> 00:09:33,469 And it was a great point, actually. 154 00:09:33,469 --> 00:09:39,439 Can I say, to reflect, one of the things I picked up very quickly, because that had been my upbringing was the essential nature of church. 155 00:09:40,034 --> 00:09:42,804 And that's not always implicit to every brand new convert. 156 00:09:43,204 --> 00:09:46,564 Many brand new converts don't see the place and importance of church. 157 00:09:46,564 --> 00:09:52,344 But I knew it because I just, well, I knew myself, but I also had been brought up that church is what Christians. 158 00:09:52,719 --> 00:09:53,379 Get to do. 159 00:09:53,389 --> 00:09:54,159 It's a wonderful thing. 160 00:09:54,739 --> 00:09:56,559 But then I evangelized people. 161 00:09:56,829 --> 00:09:58,349 I realized they didn't have that background. 162 00:09:58,409 --> 00:10:02,979 It was just trickier for people as they come to know Christ, knowing what next steps to take. 163 00:10:30,199 --> 00:10:32,089 The Christian life is a journey. 164 00:10:32,089 --> 00:10:35,319 The closer we walk with God, the more we surrender our plans for his— 165 00:10:35,869 --> 00:10:38,709 to see the world come to know and love his Son, Jesus. 166 00:10:39,739 --> 00:10:41,509 Where does your life fit into God's plan? 167 00:10:42,079 --> 00:10:43,479 Where is the right place to serve? 168 00:10:44,074 --> 00:10:47,414 How can you be equipped to reap the harvest God has prepared for you? 169 00:10:48,324 --> 00:10:50,424 God finds us in so many different places. 170 00:10:50,674 --> 00:10:54,554 He leads us from school to work, from being served to opportunities for service. 171 00:10:55,134 --> 00:11:00,004 For almost 160 years, he has led committed Christians to Moore Theological College. 172 00:11:00,754 --> 00:11:07,904 Moore College offers a chance to be shaped and transformed by the gospel of the Lord Jesus; to join a community committed to growing more 173 00:11:07,904 --> 00:11:14,624 like Christ; to deeply engage with God's word in its original languages; to become effective pastors and proclaimers of his good news; 174 00:11:15,169 --> 00:11:20,839 to prepare for global mission, humble men and women together, doing whatever it takes to bring the gospel to the nation. 175 00:11:21,919 --> 00:11:25,069 The Christian life is a journey, and Moore College can be part of that. 176 00:11:25,489 --> 00:11:30,410 Whether it's the Preliminary Theological Certificate, a one-year Advanced Diploma, a three-year Bachelor 177 00:11:30,410 --> 00:11:36,170 of Theology, or a four-year Masters, Moore College can help you reach the field God is preparing for you. 178 00:11:36,849 --> 00:11:39,300 Find out more on our website: moore. 179 00:11:39,329 --> 00:11:41,849 That's moore.edu au. 180 00:11:43,119 --> 00:11:43,799 That's moore. 181 00:11:44,119 --> 00:11:44,679 edu. 182 00:11:44,909 --> 00:11:44,989 au. 183 00:11:45,890 --> 00:11:47,689 And now let's get back to our program. 184 00:11:47,970 --> 00:11:55,349 Since that time, you've done a few different ministry roles and you're now working for Evangelism and New Churches in Sydney. 185 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,030 Can you just tell us a little bit about that organisation and the role that you have? 186 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,070 Yeah, Evangelism and New Churches, which used to be called the Department of Evangelism, and some of your listeners 187 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:09,545 may know John Chapman, "Chappo", Australia's, uh, greatest evangelist and he headed up the department of evangelism. 188 00:12:09,555 --> 00:12:13,155 It's actually been in the Sydney diocese for well over 100 years and in 189 00:12:13,225 --> 00:12:17,984 essence it's quite, it's not hard to explain, it's just a bit weird to explain. 190 00:12:18,304 --> 00:12:23,205 In essence it is an organization that exists at the heart of the family of churches that are 191 00:12:23,585 --> 00:12:30,865 the Anglican Church in Sydney that exists for the purpose of encouraging parishes in evangelism. 192 00:12:31,605 --> 00:12:36,025 So that we will see more people find life and hope in Jesus Christ across Sydney. 193 00:12:36,285 --> 00:12:40,015 So encouraging, that's a big term that includes a bunch of things. 194 00:12:40,295 --> 00:12:41,875 So that's the evangelism piece. 195 00:12:42,424 --> 00:12:48,585 Around 20 years ago or so, the new churches part was added to it in recognition of the essential nature of evangelism. 196 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:58,850 To church planting so that a wing of evangelism new churches is to champion and encourage, but also to help establish new church plants across Sydney. 197 00:12:59,270 --> 00:13:02,680 So I work very specifically in the realm of evangelism. 198 00:13:02,755 --> 00:13:09,405 And my job is really to help pastors, but also Christians engage with non Christian people 199 00:13:09,495 --> 00:13:13,295 to think carefully about how we're doing evangelism so that more people become Christians. 200 00:13:13,674 --> 00:13:18,674 Can you help us as listeners to the podcast, how can we be better evangelistically engaging 201 00:13:18,674 --> 00:13:22,365 with our non Christian friends, both at the individual level, but at the church level? 202 00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:23,155 Yes, I can. 203 00:13:23,235 --> 00:13:23,565 Thanks. 204 00:13:23,585 --> 00:13:23,845 Okay. 205 00:13:26,075 --> 00:13:26,505 Yeah. 206 00:13:26,505 --> 00:13:26,785 Yeah. 207 00:13:26,805 --> 00:13:32,735 I think brother, the first thing that we need to understand when it comes to evangelism is we need to understand the deflection. 208 00:13:33,075 --> 00:13:36,915 By that I mean to say, we need to understand what stops us doing it. 209 00:13:37,305 --> 00:13:40,635 Now, I'm going to make a assumption that if you're listening to this, you are 210 00:13:40,635 --> 00:13:44,660 a born again believer, you is probably active member of your local church. 211 00:13:45,035 --> 00:13:52,165 And so that means statistically that 90 percent of you will be convinced that evangelism is something Christians should do. 212 00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:56,660 There's a gift of evangelism, but also the broad encouragement of the new Testament that we 213 00:13:56,660 --> 00:14:00,829 are witnesses to Jesus across the world until he returns, he's with us to the end of the age. 214 00:14:01,850 --> 00:14:07,580 We've got 90 percent of us who believe we should do it, but what percentage of people, according to the data that we 215 00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:13,160 have, NCLS and otherwise, Peter, what percentage of people do you think actually are proactively involved in evangelism? 216 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,480 A little bit lower than 90%. 217 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:16,390 Slightly lower. 218 00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:17,840 So flip it on its head. 219 00:14:18,460 --> 00:14:24,230 And 10%, so you have this disparity between conviction and action. 220 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:30,390 So the question really is, how do we get people to go between that to move from conviction to action? 221 00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:34,330 And I think the way that we do that is primarily identifying why we don't do it. 222 00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:39,630 And I would offer that in my experience, but I think this is biblical explained as well. 223 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,169 The thing that prevents most of us doing evangelism is. 224 00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:47,020 Yeah, we're afraid with good reason. 225 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:51,280 Jesus promises that it will be scary. 226 00:14:51,530 --> 00:14:53,700 So when it is scary, that's a fulfillment of that. 227 00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:55,180 And we see what happened to Jesus. 228 00:14:55,180 --> 00:14:56,269 He promises for his followers. 229 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:57,480 They will hate us as well. 230 00:14:57,950 --> 00:15:03,780 If we look at what happened to the apostles, the book of Acts, we're doing a sermon series on that at the moment and the continual. 231 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,930 Response they get is persecution and imprisonment and torture and then death. 232 00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:15,450 So when we face rejection, firstly, it's important that we understand that that's not evidence of incompetent evangelism. 233 00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:17,780 It's evidence of evangelism. 234 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:21,080 That's what happens often, more often than not. 235 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:26,160 And so when we understand that it's fear that's stopping us, how do we stop fear? 236 00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:28,530 How do we deal with the fear? 237 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,090 Well, I think the most important thing I've seen in churches where you've got higher than usual levels of 238 00:15:34,090 --> 00:15:38,570 people involved in abandonment, and I just know from my own life as well, is that I think there's three things. 239 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:46,355 Number one, It's not to assume that the conviction that we should do it is a sufficient conviction. 240 00:15:47,195 --> 00:15:53,065 I think the bigger conviction that we need is not just that we should do it, but that 241 00:15:53,175 --> 00:16:00,005 no matter what above all else, it's worth it because eternity matters more than today. 242 00:16:00,554 --> 00:16:03,835 And so if you're captured by the eternal realities. 243 00:16:04,145 --> 00:16:05,605 of life that Jesus offers. 244 00:16:05,605 --> 00:16:07,055 Why does Jesus go to the cross? 245 00:16:07,315 --> 00:16:11,315 He goes because the joy is set before him, is what the book of Hebrews 12 says. 246 00:16:11,575 --> 00:16:14,295 When he says the son of man must suffer, where does he end? 247 00:16:14,465 --> 00:16:15,575 And rise from the dead. 248 00:16:15,905 --> 00:16:18,364 Jesus dies because he knows he will rise from the dead. 249 00:16:18,365 --> 00:16:24,365 He knows the crucifixion works, but he also knows that eternity awaits for those who trust in him. 250 00:16:24,995 --> 00:16:27,325 So it's worth it, the garden of Gethsemane. 251 00:16:27,325 --> 00:16:30,744 He doesn't want to do it, but he does it because it's his father's it's worth it. 252 00:16:31,205 --> 00:16:33,935 Now that means, how do you get that in someone? 253 00:16:34,505 --> 00:16:37,575 Well, the good and bad news is there's no short way to do it. 254 00:16:37,745 --> 00:16:44,665 I think it's a continual drip feed of Bible preaching in small groups, in personal devotion and seeing 255 00:16:44,774 --> 00:16:49,095 the value of eternity and letting that be the compass that drives you eternity, eternity, eternity. 256 00:16:49,335 --> 00:16:50,515 I'll give you an illustration of that. 257 00:16:50,524 --> 00:16:54,935 Not long ago, I was moving house and I had some removalists there and we'd had a bit of a chat. 258 00:16:55,265 --> 00:16:56,075 I knew I was a minister. 259 00:16:56,375 --> 00:17:02,124 We began to speak about these things and I then went inside to get a little gospel tract that I've got to give to them. 260 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:09,570 And then I walked across the garden and I felt up my spine, this terror, you know, Oh, what am I doing? 261 00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:10,030 What am I doing? 262 00:17:10,030 --> 00:17:10,370 What am I doing? 263 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,120 So how did I deal with that? 264 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:25,139 Usually often, more often than not, I felt I would go, Oh, I stopped and I thought eternity, eternity, eternity, it's worth it. 265 00:17:25,139 --> 00:17:25,584 It's worth it. 266 00:17:26,055 --> 00:17:29,425 That's like a split second conversation I'm trying to have with myself all the time. 267 00:17:29,455 --> 00:17:30,365 It won't happen intrinsically. 268 00:17:30,365 --> 00:17:31,095 I think we've got to teach ourselves. 269 00:17:31,265 --> 00:17:32,015 So that's the first one. 270 00:17:32,315 --> 00:17:36,585 The second thing I think that can really drive us towards more evangelism in our lives and 271 00:17:36,585 --> 00:17:42,745 the lives of others is practice doing it, but not in the way that potentially we might think. 272 00:17:42,745 --> 00:17:44,184 But if I say evangelism. 273 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,360 Oh, let's go do evangelism as a church. 274 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,270 What do you think many Christians here, what do they think we're going to be doing when we say let's do it? 275 00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:54,539 Knocking on doors, walking up to people on the street, that sort of thing. 276 00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:55,189 Yeah. 277 00:17:55,189 --> 00:17:56,780 How do you think that makes most Christians feel? 278 00:17:56,830 --> 00:17:59,039 Uh, a little bit nervous. 279 00:17:59,449 --> 00:17:59,739 Yeah. 280 00:18:00,209 --> 00:18:00,679 Yeah. 281 00:18:00,909 --> 00:18:01,959 Slightly nervous. 282 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,860 I like to have an assault rifle with me if I knock on someone's door. 283 00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:06,630 I don't like knocking on people's doors. 284 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:08,340 I don't like standing on street corners and doing it. 285 00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:09,770 That's socially embarrassing. 286 00:18:10,370 --> 00:18:11,640 That doesn't mean I'm ashamed of the gospel. 287 00:18:11,820 --> 00:18:14,260 It means I'm ashamed of standing on the street corner and knocking on the door. 288 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:18,060 So I think understanding that that's the way most people feel. 289 00:18:18,060 --> 00:18:22,980 They feel like evangelism is falling off a cliff, realizing, you know, it's not, it's bungee jumping. 290 00:18:23,230 --> 00:18:24,120 Jesus is with us. 291 00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:25,100 He's with us forever. 292 00:18:25,409 --> 00:18:26,419 He's with you right now. 293 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,750 But also, therefore, as a church family, thinking through ways we can lower the bar of entry into evangelistic 294 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:40,210 activity in a way that's actually not utterly paralyzingly terrifying, such as encouraging each other to bring people 295 00:18:40,270 --> 00:18:46,794 to church, to bring people to an evangelistic call, to drive their friend to and from, to chat about it on the way. 296 00:18:47,125 --> 00:18:53,225 And to actually be involved in that process with the church family, so that we have conviction, we have action, that sort of thing there together. 297 00:18:53,325 --> 00:19:01,715 And the final one I will say is that in essence, prayer, that we pray to God that he would give us courage because it does take courage. 298 00:19:02,134 --> 00:19:02,894 It's not easy. 299 00:19:03,454 --> 00:19:03,960 It's hard. 300 00:19:04,484 --> 00:19:06,274 Don't pretend there's this easy version of it. 301 00:19:06,324 --> 00:19:06,894 There isn't. 302 00:19:07,264 --> 00:19:10,524 But that we pray to God for courage, conviction, and for opportunity. 303 00:19:11,064 --> 00:19:12,004 That's so helpful, Dave. 304 00:19:12,004 --> 00:19:15,524 And those are some very basic Christian convictions. 305 00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:17,449 But it's so easy to forget them. 306 00:19:17,739 --> 00:19:20,809 It's so easy to put them to the side and reading the New Testament. 307 00:19:20,809 --> 00:19:26,879 I've been struck by how often particularly Paul defines Christian in connection with the gospel. 308 00:19:26,919 --> 00:19:28,449 We are gospel people. 309 00:19:28,749 --> 00:19:32,359 In other words, we are people who are concerned for the gospel to go out. 310 00:19:33,019 --> 00:19:41,209 And even Philippians one, he wants to hear them standing firm in one spirit, striving side by side for the faith of the gospel. 311 00:19:41,649 --> 00:19:44,869 Even Jesus, when he calls people in Mark 10. 312 00:19:45,239 --> 00:19:47,299 To be willing to renounce their family. 313 00:19:47,309 --> 00:19:51,489 It's striking that he says, renounce your family for my sake and for the sake of the gospel. 314 00:19:52,259 --> 00:19:57,249 So this gospel conviction is really who we are, but we need to be reminded of it, as you say. 315 00:19:57,249 --> 00:20:01,649 And these ways of doing evangelism are ways of making sure that we are. 316 00:20:01,834 --> 00:20:03,074 and remain gospel people. 317 00:20:03,664 --> 00:20:03,874 Yeah. 318 00:20:03,874 --> 00:20:04,304 Big time. 319 00:20:04,414 --> 00:20:04,904 I think that's right. 320 00:20:04,934 --> 00:20:09,034 And Philippians one, I mean, just as you said that I always think like God, every time I pray for you 321 00:20:09,044 --> 00:20:15,774 because of your partnership in the gospel, he is, there's a financial aspect to that, but there's also a 322 00:20:15,904 --> 00:20:21,084 proactive evangelistic aspect of that, that we partnered together and not just with one another, but with. 323 00:20:21,914 --> 00:20:28,054 God, you know, it's his gospel and the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus, who is with us always so that we 324 00:20:28,054 --> 00:20:34,134 are in partnership with God in his mission to see his gospel proclaimed across his world for his people. 325 00:20:34,444 --> 00:20:36,954 And so talk about a bungee jump security blanket. 326 00:20:36,964 --> 00:20:40,884 I mean, they're just like, ah, whatever the response, it's going to be okay. 327 00:20:41,289 --> 00:20:44,599 And there's also, as you've mentioned, this is something we do as a church. 328 00:20:44,609 --> 00:20:48,439 This is something that we do together, and sometimes we think of evangelism. 329 00:20:48,469 --> 00:20:52,419 Obviously, I'm the one who's going to have a conversation with my friend or my family member, but 330 00:20:52,419 --> 00:20:57,079 evangelism is something that we do together and we encourage one another and we pray for one another. 331 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,060 And I think that's something that I find helpful to reflect on. 332 00:21:00,509 --> 00:21:06,569 My journey into effective evangelism happened through church because our church encouraged triplets. 333 00:21:07,009 --> 00:21:11,619 Prayer triplets in evangelism, where you just have three of you and you'd all come up, you'd have 334 00:21:11,619 --> 00:21:16,799 a friend and there was a course coming up, a Christian explored or whatever it was in a terms time. 335 00:21:16,829 --> 00:21:21,349 And the idea was to meet together or just message each other and pray for each other's friends. 336 00:21:21,749 --> 00:21:23,660 And that changed everything for me. 337 00:21:24,489 --> 00:21:27,139 It just meant I was able to really intentionally think. 338 00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:32,539 Hey, what am I doing to know that I'm not alone to have friends encourage me and support 339 00:21:32,539 --> 00:21:37,059 me and know, and even better, my friend actually did come to that and was converted. 340 00:21:37,209 --> 00:21:41,989 Sam is his name and my friends who were in the prayer triplet came to the course 341 00:21:42,689 --> 00:21:48,059 and that meant they were there with me and Sam and they knew all about him. 342 00:21:48,239 --> 00:21:50,929 They weren't weird about it, but I was able to partner together. 343 00:21:51,774 --> 00:21:57,134 Cause it is the hardest, can I just say, they say that the last thing to be converted in a man is his wallet. 344 00:21:57,144 --> 00:21:57,894 You've heard that before. 345 00:21:58,154 --> 00:21:58,764 It's not true. 346 00:21:58,764 --> 00:22:02,824 The last thing to be converted in a man is his desire to humiliate himself in evangelism. 347 00:22:03,074 --> 00:22:04,014 He hates that so much. 348 00:22:04,014 --> 00:22:06,154 He'd pay any amount of money to get out of doing it. 349 00:22:06,204 --> 00:22:06,444 You know? 350 00:22:06,604 --> 00:22:11,044 So I think we just need to continually encourage one another to do this. 351 00:22:11,064 --> 00:22:11,664 We're better together. 352 00:22:12,054 --> 00:22:12,484 Wonderful. 353 00:22:12,494 --> 00:22:20,194 Well, Dave, really appreciate your time on the podcast today and also really appreciate the work that you're doing as you seek to encourage. 354 00:22:20,544 --> 00:22:22,454 Churches and Christians in their evangelism. 355 00:22:23,004 --> 00:22:23,634 Thanks very much. 356 00:22:23,724 --> 00:22:24,294 Thank you very much. 357 00:22:24,294 --> 00:22:24,864 Thanks for having me. 358 00:22:39,854 --> 00:22:45,084 To benefit from more resources from the Centre for Christian Living, please visit ccl. 359 00:22:45,474 --> 00:22:45,914 moore. 360 00:22:45,915 --> 00:22:47,954 edu. 361 00:22:47,954 --> 00:22:53,804 au where you'll find a host 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