1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:06,740 In this episode of the CCL podcast, I speak with Jocelyn Loane about her new book on Christian motherhood. 2 00:00:06,770 --> 00:00:15,540 And in the book and in the conversation, Joss really helpfully shows how the gospel more than anything else should shape Christian motherhood. 3 00:00:15,540 --> 00:00:22,280 It's very easy to read parenting books, which have a lot of helpful things to say, but in this conversation, Joss really 4 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:32,145 shows us how key gospel truths are the most powerful things for thinking carefully and properly about Christian motherhood. 5 00:00:47,164 --> 00:00:50,464 Welcome to Moore College's Centre for Christian Living podcast. 6 00:00:50,985 --> 00:00:54,899 I'm joined today by Jocelyn Loane to speak about her new book, “Motherhood: 7 00:00:55,180 --> 00:00:58,670 How the gospel shapes our purpose and our priorities”. 8 00:00:58,850 --> 00:01:00,290 Welcome to the podcast, 9 00:01:00,290 --> 00:01:01,149 Joss. 10 00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:01,220 I 11 00:01:01,220 --> 00:01:05,470 wonder if we could just kick off, tell us a little bit about yourself, your family, and how you became a Christian. 12 00:01:05,479 --> 00:01:06,000 Sure. 13 00:01:06,050 --> 00:01:09,080 I'm married to Ed, we've been married for 23 years. 14 00:01:09,419 --> 00:01:11,620 So he's in university residential ministry. 15 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:12,580 So we live on the campus. 16 00:01:12,825 --> 00:01:14,685 At Sydney Uni with our five kids. 17 00:01:15,015 --> 00:01:17,975 We've got Jemima, who's 18, Sophie's 16. 18 00:01:17,975 --> 00:01:23,805 Ben and Sam are 14, and Abby, our youngest is eight, and I mainly muck around with them or 19 00:01:23,805 --> 00:01:28,604 else, uh, I'm also here at Moore College as a chaplain and doing some alumni relations work. 20 00:01:28,835 --> 00:01:31,655 So I grew up in a non-Christian home. 21 00:01:31,655 --> 00:01:32,855 Well, my dad was not a believer. 22 00:01:32,855 --> 00:01:35,810 My mom was an occasional church attender, although I don't think she. 23 00:01:36,370 --> 00:01:38,290 Say she had any faith anymore. 24 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:41,470 And I started school at a Catholic primary school. 25 00:01:41,850 --> 00:01:44,380 So I don't remember ever not believing in God. 26 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:45,060 I always. 27 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:48,960 believe that God was real, but I always thought that he was really angry at me. 28 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,300 So I remember we had a really strict nun as our teacher one year, and she told our class 29 00:01:54,580 --> 00:01:58,880 that if we were naughty, God would send a little rain cloud to rain just over our heads. 30 00:01:59,190 --> 00:02:01,349 And I was really convinced this was going to happen to me. 31 00:02:01,349 --> 00:02:07,149 I lived in fear of it until one day I realized I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone with a little rain cloud over their head. 32 00:02:07,559 --> 00:02:08,129 So. 33 00:02:08,625 --> 00:02:12,575 I kind of had this idea that God was angry at me and just waiting to catch me doing the wrong thing. 34 00:02:12,955 --> 00:02:18,025 But then in God's kindness, when I got to high school, I was sent to an all girls Christian boarding school. 35 00:02:18,474 --> 00:02:22,275 And my mum was worried I was going to turn out really weird, never talking to any boys. 36 00:02:22,535 --> 00:02:24,715 So she arranged for me to go to a local youth group. 37 00:02:25,075 --> 00:02:32,670 And there I was taught about Jesus faithfully and at And I remember being read Ephesians and being taught that while we, 38 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:38,329 by nature are deserving of God's wrath, in his mercy, he sent Jesus and because of him, we can be in right relationship. 39 00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:42,119 So I came to understand the gospel of grace and realized God wasn't angry at me anymore. 40 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,060 He was delighted in me because of Jesus. 41 00:02:44,069 --> 00:02:45,449 So that's how I became a Christian. 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:46,310 Wonderful. 43 00:02:46,310 --> 00:02:48,400 Praise God for faithful youth groups. 44 00:02:48,490 --> 00:02:48,920 Yes. 45 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:55,179 Now you've written this book on motherhood, you've got some experience as a mother, but what prompted you to write the book? 46 00:02:55,310 --> 00:02:57,070 I was pretty hesitant to write the book, actually. 47 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,919 I think when you put yourself out there to write a book, it's like you're saying you're some sort of expert on something. 48 00:03:02,170 --> 00:03:04,109 And I am certainly not an expert mother. 49 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:05,809 I often stuff up. 50 00:03:05,849 --> 00:03:07,769 I have done a lot of things I regret as a mum. 51 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:15,420 Yeah, I keep sitting against my kids, so I didn't really want to put myself out there as somehow knowing how to do it perfectly, because I don't. 52 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,909 It kind of came about because I gave some talks on motherhood and an editor at Matthias Media, 53 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,869 who's publishing the book, got in touch and said, I think there's legs in this to be a book. 54 00:03:24,869 --> 00:03:26,979 Would you be interested in developing a book proposal? 55 00:03:27,369 --> 00:03:30,780 And I went home to my husband and said, I don't think I can do this. 56 00:03:31,270 --> 00:03:33,370 Encouraging me to think, well, it's not you saying. 57 00:03:33,585 --> 00:03:34,185 You're an expert. 58 00:03:34,185 --> 00:03:36,255 It's just, you're speaking the gospel into people's lives. 59 00:03:36,255 --> 00:03:37,915 And I thought, well, that's something I could do. 60 00:03:38,525 --> 00:03:43,335 So I just wrote a book proposal and they said, yeah, this is a book and got going with that. 61 00:03:43,415 --> 00:03:45,094 I guess I also saw a need for it. 62 00:03:45,385 --> 00:03:47,015 There are so many books on parenting. 63 00:03:47,025 --> 00:03:49,394 There's heaps of them and a lot of them are really good as well. 64 00:03:49,974 --> 00:03:51,085 So why write another one? 65 00:03:51,355 --> 00:03:55,815 I guess, because there's not a lot from an Australian perspective and particularly 66 00:03:55,855 --> 00:03:59,145 thinking about being a mother, not just a generic substitutable parent. 67 00:03:59,574 --> 00:04:02,894 So I guess I wanted to think about that space and write into that. 68 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,660 And it's a book about motherhood, but it's obviously from a Christian perspective. 69 00:04:07,660 --> 00:04:10,060 What do you think makes Christian motherhood distinctive? 70 00:04:10,970 --> 00:04:16,189 Well, I guess as a Christian, the Lordship of Jesus Christ changes everything about our life. 71 00:04:16,190 --> 00:04:16,570 Doesn't it? 72 00:04:16,610 --> 00:04:24,510 There's no area of life that's left untouched by living as a Christian, living with Jesus as our Lord and parenthood is affected by that. 73 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:30,150 As much as anything else, as Christians, we want to be having the Bible as our authority. 74 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,560 We want to be living for the glory of Jesus, for the glory of God. 75 00:04:33,630 --> 00:04:36,200 So that's going to shape how we parent. 76 00:04:36,250 --> 00:04:38,560 And I think it's going to shape how we see our kids as well. 77 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,369 So when I look at my children, I want to see them the way God sees them. 78 00:04:42,429 --> 00:04:47,840 I want to see that they're made in his image, that they have an inherent value and dignity that comes with that. 79 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:48,630 They're precious. 80 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,539 I want to understand that they're good gifts from God to me, that they're a blessing in my life. 81 00:04:54,010 --> 00:05:00,640 But I also want to see that they're born with a sinful nature and their greatest need actually is to be put in a right relationship with a creator. 82 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:04,810 So I guess the thing is, as a Christian mum, I'm going to see that need and I'm going 83 00:05:04,810 --> 00:05:08,630 to see the greatest need they have is to be put in a right relationship with God. 84 00:05:08,690 --> 00:05:14,220 And that's going to shape my purpose and my priorities as a mum and how I think about my kids and what I'm doing as a mother. 85 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:18,190 I'm going to be thinking what I want most is for them to be a disciple of Jesus. 86 00:05:18,510 --> 00:05:20,739 So that's going to shape everything I do as a mum. 87 00:05:20,969 --> 00:05:21,790 Yeah, that's really interesting. 88 00:05:21,890 --> 00:05:26,730 I was struck at one point in the book that you refer to the Great Commission in the context of motherhood. 89 00:05:26,790 --> 00:05:31,240 And I thought that was really interesting, but that's exactly what you've said, that motherhood is connected to discipleship. 90 00:05:31,310 --> 00:05:32,120 Yeah, that's right. 91 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,719 I think we can see motherhood as fulfilling that Great Commission in many ways. 92 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,950 Like we're not just to fill the earth, but to fill it with disciples of Jesus. 93 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,490 And some of those disciples will be birthed from our own bodies, be adopted into our own homes. 94 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,670 So yeah, I very much see motherhood as discipleship. 95 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,230 You have a chapter on sin, which is very helpful. 96 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:56,549 And I was particularly struck by the line, to regularly seek forgiveness of our children will be the mark of a biblical mother. 97 00:05:56,659 --> 00:06:00,170 Now, you've obviously just spoken about how our children have a sinful nature, but 98 00:06:00,430 --> 00:06:05,229 reflecting on the idea that as a mother, you need to ask forgiveness of your children. 99 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:06,350 Can you expand a little bit on that? 100 00:06:06,430 --> 00:06:06,890 Yeah. 101 00:06:06,930 --> 00:06:07,230 Yep. 102 00:06:07,550 --> 00:06:11,950 Well, I think as we parent, we really want to think about ourselves as well, and who we are. 103 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:18,300 And I think understanding ourselves as forgiven sinners is really important as we come to our relationships with our kids. 104 00:06:18,670 --> 00:06:23,339 So we know that while we're freed from the penalty of sin because of Jesus death, 105 00:06:23,389 --> 00:06:26,630 and we're freed from the power of sin, we're still going to battle its presence. 106 00:06:26,969 --> 00:06:29,299 So in our homes, we're going to sin against our kids. 107 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:30,630 That's something that will happen. 108 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,690 We also know that we've been forgiven and shown so much grace. 109 00:06:34,265 --> 00:06:36,974 We need to extend that grace to our children when they sin. 110 00:06:37,284 --> 00:06:39,565 And we need to ask them to extend it to us as well. 111 00:06:39,905 --> 00:06:43,414 The Christian life is one where you're going to have to apologize a lot. 112 00:06:43,434 --> 00:06:47,214 You're going to confess your sin to God, but also to the people that your sin affects. 113 00:06:47,575 --> 00:06:50,174 So I think we want to model that in our homes. 114 00:06:50,214 --> 00:06:53,375 And we don't want to get our kids to deal with their sin and apologize to each other and just. 115 00:06:53,805 --> 00:06:55,914 Ignore the fact that we're also going to sin. 116 00:06:56,615 --> 00:07:00,715 I think as a parent, it can be really easy to justify your own sin or minimize it. 117 00:07:00,835 --> 00:07:03,974 I think I can lose my temper at my kids and think, well, that was justified. 118 00:07:03,985 --> 00:07:07,555 They did this and I had a horrible day and I still had to get dinner on the table. 119 00:07:08,114 --> 00:07:13,909 But actually we need to keep holding ourselves to God's standard, to knowing He will forgive us, but knowing. 120 00:07:13,910 --> 00:07:15,020 That we've done the wrong thing. 121 00:07:15,020 --> 00:07:16,940 We need to seek forgiveness from our kids. 122 00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:21,470 And I think that just sets a beautiful culture in the home too, of not being prideful 123 00:07:21,470 --> 00:07:25,950 or pretending we don't sin, but relating to our kids with humility and with gentleness. 124 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:33,600 So understanding that as a mother, you're sinful, but also it's important to understand that your kids are sinful as well. 125 00:07:33,719 --> 00:07:35,990 And how does that shape motherhood? 126 00:07:36,740 --> 00:07:37,230 Yeah. 127 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Well, I think obviously it's a biblical truth. 128 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:39,830 We see. 129 00:07:40,185 --> 00:07:44,495 David say, surely I was sinful from birth, sinful from the time my mother can see me. 130 00:07:44,495 --> 00:07:49,115 Like in Psalm 51, there's that idea that we know our kids are born as sinners. 131 00:07:49,505 --> 00:07:51,795 So it kind of sets the expectation for us. 132 00:07:51,894 --> 00:07:53,734 We know our kids are going to struggle with sin. 133 00:07:53,745 --> 00:07:57,874 They're not born as these perfect little beings that we're going to somehow stuff up by parenting them. 134 00:07:58,454 --> 00:07:59,634 They're already broken. 135 00:07:59,634 --> 00:08:00,904 They already have the sinful nature. 136 00:08:01,074 --> 00:08:05,795 I guess that prepares us for how hard motherhood can be, that we're going to face challenges. 137 00:08:06,104 --> 00:08:08,935 There's going to be discipline involved in raising our children. 138 00:08:09,275 --> 00:08:15,385 And it's freeing in a way, I think if you're holding this side of the kids as somehow inherently good inside that they're not 139 00:08:15,385 --> 00:08:21,895 sinful, then you'll be surprised when they sin, when they show defiance, when they resist authority, the same way that we do that. 140 00:08:22,305 --> 00:08:28,025 So I think it's quite freeing to know they're suffering from the same condition we are and they need the same solution, they need Jesus. 141 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:32,110 And obviously we talked about motherhood as discipleship. 142 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:36,260 Obviously within that is the question about discipline. 143 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:41,040 And I know that's a bit of a hot topic and the book is really helpful. 144 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:47,230 Can you just give us a few pointers about what the Bible says about discipline and the mother's role in that? 145 00:08:48,670 --> 00:08:54,900 I think often when we think of discipline in our heads, it's something that's synonymous with punishment or getting your kid in trouble. 146 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:56,910 That's what you do when your kid's being naughty. 147 00:08:57,439 --> 00:09:02,490 But I think it's helpful to realize that in the Bible discipline is a term that's much broader than that. 148 00:09:02,509 --> 00:09:07,699 Actually you can see in the New Testament it's often translated as training or teaching 149 00:09:07,699 --> 00:09:12,210 and in the Old Testament it's things like instruction and exhortation and warning. 150 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:14,790 So it's a much bigger picture than just when you deal with. 151 00:09:15,010 --> 00:09:16,180 you could doing something wrong. 152 00:09:16,190 --> 00:09:20,410 It's the whole process really of bringing them up in the training instruction of the Lord. 153 00:09:20,790 --> 00:09:22,290 That's how we can think about discipline. 154 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:26,020 It's got a positive side to it as well as dealing with negative behaviors. 155 00:09:26,550 --> 00:09:31,660 I think the other thing we want to think about discipline is we want to reflect the way God disciplines us in our discipline. 156 00:09:31,660 --> 00:09:35,980 So God has a long term focus when he disciplines us as his children. 157 00:09:36,260 --> 00:09:37,840 He's thinking of our eternal good. 158 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:38,820 And that's the same with our kids. 159 00:09:38,820 --> 00:09:41,585 We don't just want a nice, Compliant, nicely behaved kid. 160 00:09:41,915 --> 00:09:43,265 We're thinking of their eternal good. 161 00:09:43,265 --> 00:09:46,325 We're disciplining them because we care about the people they're going to be. 162 00:09:46,925 --> 00:09:48,475 And it comes from a place of love. 163 00:09:48,565 --> 00:09:50,195 Discipline is not just something we do in anger. 164 00:09:50,345 --> 00:09:52,355 In fact, it shouldn't be something we do in anger. 165 00:09:52,744 --> 00:09:54,585 It should be a result of our love for our kids. 166 00:09:54,585 --> 00:09:56,415 We discipline them because we love them. 167 00:09:56,965 --> 00:10:00,104 And while it might be temporarily unpleasant for our kids. 168 00:10:00,315 --> 00:10:03,565 It's aiming to do something that's loving for them in the longterm. 169 00:10:04,115 --> 00:10:08,455 I think also we want it to be characterized by grace because we are forgiven people. 170 00:10:08,455 --> 00:10:09,475 We will forgive our kids. 171 00:10:09,475 --> 00:10:11,845 We don't need to be punitive and pay them back. 172 00:10:12,104 --> 00:10:14,575 We really want to have that training aspect in our discipline. 173 00:10:15,365 --> 00:10:18,045 Probably, I think the most important thing to think about with discipline is. 174 00:10:18,255 --> 00:10:19,705 We want it to address the heart of our kids. 175 00:10:19,705 --> 00:10:21,615 We're not just trying to modify their behavior. 176 00:10:22,385 --> 00:10:24,275 Really what we want to get at is their heart. 177 00:10:24,305 --> 00:10:25,735 It's their heart that needs to change. 178 00:10:25,735 --> 00:10:27,885 They need a heart that's orientated towards God. 179 00:10:28,275 --> 00:10:36,135 So we want our discipline to really be aiming at looking at what's going on inside our children, not just the behavior we're seeing on the outside. 180 00:10:36,375 --> 00:10:37,444 Yeah, it was striking. 181 00:10:37,444 --> 00:10:39,604 I think the first chapter in the book is on love. 182 00:10:39,665 --> 00:10:42,474 And that's, as you say, the fundamental thing is loving our children. 183 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,680 Discipline comes out of that. 184 00:10:45,170 --> 00:10:50,130 And as you say, again, really helpfully in the book, the positive aspect of discipline, 185 00:10:50,380 --> 00:10:55,010 you also engage a little bit with some sort of alternative ideas that are floating around. 186 00:10:55,930 --> 00:10:58,040 Can you say a little bit about gentle parenting? 187 00:10:58,089 --> 00:11:01,340 Because you touch on that and that is sort of a kind of phrase that you hear. 188 00:11:01,779 --> 00:11:02,099 Yes. 189 00:11:02,410 --> 00:11:02,850 Yep. 190 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:03,420 Yep. 191 00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:03,740 That's true. 192 00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:09,530 That's been the big change I've seen having a 10 year age gap when our kids, I've seen a bit of parenting stuff come and go. 193 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:10,820 And I think the big. 194 00:11:10,950 --> 00:11:17,820 Change has been Instagram and that's really made a whole lot of this kind of, especially these gentle parenting movement, very accessible to mums. 195 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:23,300 And I started seeing it even in our churches with the way parents were interacting with their kids. 196 00:11:23,639 --> 00:11:26,560 If you don't know what it is, gentle parenting, it's kind of a bit of an amorphous. 197 00:11:26,770 --> 00:11:31,280 term covering a parenting style or philosophy, which sounds lovely. 198 00:11:31,290 --> 00:11:32,370 We do want to be gentle. 199 00:11:32,370 --> 00:11:36,660 Like obviously there's some commendable things there and there is some common grace wisdom in it. 200 00:11:37,129 --> 00:11:43,429 I think the big problem I have with it is gentle parenting is often based on the idea that your kid is inherently good. 201 00:11:43,789 --> 00:11:48,030 And I think any discipline method or parenting philosophy that doesn't consider 202 00:11:48,464 --> 00:11:52,175 The sinful nature of our children and the saving Lordship of Jesus Christ. 203 00:11:52,555 --> 00:11:55,345 Ultimately they're diagnosing the problem with our kids is wrong. 204 00:11:55,375 --> 00:11:58,545 And so the treatment they apply is going to be wrong as well. 205 00:11:58,564 --> 00:12:00,464 They're not saying what our kids greatest needs are. 206 00:12:01,184 --> 00:12:06,814 So if you think your kids misbehavior comes from a point of dysregulation or emotional unmet needs, 207 00:12:07,204 --> 00:12:12,264 as opposed to sin, like those things can be in there, but that's going to change the way you parent. 208 00:12:12,514 --> 00:12:16,025 So a big mantra in the gentle parenting movement is. 209 00:12:16,244 --> 00:12:20,074 This saying that all feelings are okay, all behaviors are not. 210 00:12:20,135 --> 00:12:22,485 And that kind of drives a lot of how you parent your kids. 211 00:12:22,485 --> 00:12:26,504 It's okay to have any feeling as long as your behavior is in line. 212 00:12:27,014 --> 00:12:33,264 So you'll hear a gentle parent interact with their child and say something like, you know, the brother throws a block at the sister's head. 213 00:12:33,645 --> 00:12:38,964 The mom would say, Oh, it's okay to be angry, but it's not okay to throw blocks at your sister's head. 214 00:12:38,964 --> 00:12:40,344 I'm going to take the blocks away now. 215 00:12:40,984 --> 00:12:41,805 And you can see what happens. 216 00:12:41,814 --> 00:12:42,234 There is. 217 00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:44,390 Well, there's no restitution made with a sister. 218 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:46,550 That relationship is not addressed at all. 219 00:12:46,930 --> 00:12:49,620 And the kids, they're kind of okayed in their sin. 220 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,170 Like this is really different than how Jesus approaches things, isn't it? 221 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:58,850 When you think of Jesus talking to the Pharisees, like in Mark 7 like He has a goal at them 222 00:12:58,850 --> 00:13:03,090 because they're very concerned about their outward behavior, but their hearts are far from him. 223 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:05,910 You know, these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 224 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:11,150 So Jesus is much more concerned with what's going on inside than just getting the outside right. 225 00:13:11,339 --> 00:13:15,500 So I think gentle parenting really is flipping on what Jesus says with that phrase. 226 00:13:15,895 --> 00:13:19,194 And a kind of okaying the feeling I think is really unhelpful. 227 00:13:19,194 --> 00:13:21,275 Like Jesus doesn't say it's okay to be angry. 228 00:13:21,334 --> 00:13:25,735 You think in the Sermon on the Mount, even if you're angry at your brother, you're subject to judgment. 229 00:13:26,084 --> 00:13:28,025 He really points to the heart of the issue. 230 00:13:28,535 --> 00:13:30,175 Um, feelings are not neutral. 231 00:13:30,205 --> 00:13:31,305 I guess this is the other thing. 232 00:13:31,725 --> 00:13:35,605 Feelings are a good gift from God, but they can stem from a place of sin. 233 00:13:35,615 --> 00:13:40,665 So if your child is sad, they can be sad because their puppy died. 234 00:13:40,745 --> 00:13:41,795 Like that's a sad thing. 235 00:13:41,834 --> 00:13:42,435 That's okay. 236 00:13:42,435 --> 00:13:44,474 I'd say it's okay to be sad when your puppy dies. 237 00:13:44,475 --> 00:13:44,895 Sure. 238 00:13:45,355 --> 00:13:47,355 And you want to sit with them and be sad with them. 239 00:13:47,664 --> 00:13:51,975 But your child could also be sad because it's his sister's birthday and she got a present. 240 00:13:51,985 --> 00:13:52,505 He didn't. 241 00:13:52,535 --> 00:13:56,925 And he's crying because he's jealous because he's greedy because he doesn't love his sister. 242 00:13:56,935 --> 00:13:57,105 Sorry. 243 00:13:57,569 --> 00:14:02,960 You can see the sadness itself can come from a part that's oriented rightly or wrongly. 244 00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:08,140 So I guess with our kids, we want to be saying, feelings point to what our heart's saying. 245 00:14:08,149 --> 00:14:11,360 We want to be looking at a heart and addressing what's going on there. 246 00:14:11,969 --> 00:14:12,920 That's really helpful. 247 00:14:12,969 --> 00:14:16,345 And it just raises a question about other voices. 248 00:14:16,355 --> 00:14:18,735 So you've written a really helpful book on Christian motherhood. 249 00:14:19,355 --> 00:14:24,415 Do you have any advice on how we engage with secular books on parenthood in general? 250 00:14:24,415 --> 00:14:26,954 I mean, we've talked about the specific of gentle parenting. 251 00:14:27,055 --> 00:14:28,554 There's some good, but there's some bad. 252 00:14:28,595 --> 00:14:29,905 Any wisdom on that? 253 00:14:30,465 --> 00:14:33,075 Yeah, I've read a lot of secular parenting books. 254 00:14:33,105 --> 00:14:38,595 I've read a lot of parenting books actually now, and I think there's lots of helpful stuff you can glean. 255 00:14:38,985 --> 00:14:41,435 I guess the thing as a Christian is you always want to. 256 00:14:41,575 --> 00:14:43,765 first see things through a gospel lens. 257 00:14:43,775 --> 00:14:52,335 So you want to have your biblical principles, the foundations of a Christian worldview in place first, as you engage with this stuff. 258 00:14:52,335 --> 00:14:53,655 And you want to question it all. 259 00:14:53,655 --> 00:14:55,675 You think, what's this saying about human nature? 260 00:14:55,675 --> 00:14:58,255 What's this saying about what my child's greatest needs are? 261 00:14:58,655 --> 00:15:00,114 Where's this pointing my child? 262 00:15:00,124 --> 00:15:03,105 So I think a lot of that stuff can be really helpful. 263 00:15:03,145 --> 00:15:10,885 I've benefited a lot from more psychology driven parenting ideas, but we do want to hold them up to the gospel and. 264 00:15:10,975 --> 00:15:14,805 Disregard them if they're going to contradict what scripture tells us about our children. 265 00:15:15,655 --> 00:15:21,795 It just struck me that idea of gentle parenting, as you say, gentleness is a scriptural idea, but it's just very subtly distorted. 266 00:15:21,795 --> 00:15:24,694 And so we need to be really careful as we think about these things. 267 00:15:24,825 --> 00:15:25,495 That's right. 268 00:15:25,495 --> 00:15:25,825 Yeah. 269 00:15:25,895 --> 00:15:30,785 And actually I think the thing is with books, read books, but I reckon it's great to read books in community. 270 00:15:30,785 --> 00:15:34,355 So I think I've been really helped by older Christian women talking. 271 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:35,160 through things. 272 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,090 I've often seen fads come and go a bit. 273 00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:41,390 So I think it's really good to remember God gives us each other in the church. 274 00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:48,169 So reading books with other women in your church is a really great way to help each other discern what's helpful and what's not as helpful. 275 00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:50,189 The Priscilla & Aquila Centre is the 276 00:16:17,469 --> 00:16:23,169 Centre of Moore Theological College that aims to encourage the ministries of women in partnership with men. 277 00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:28,525 Every two years, the Centre holds a research conference for women with the aim of 278 00:16:28,525 --> 00:16:33,295 growing an academic learning community of evangelical Reformed complementarian women. 279 00:16:34,285 --> 00:16:40,704 This conference takes place the day after the Priscilla & Aquila annual conference to make it easy for women to attend both. 280 00:16:41,675 --> 00:16:48,085 The next research conference will be held on Tuesday, the 4th of February, 2025 at Moore Theological College. 281 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:57,369 Nicole Starling, lecturer in Christianity and History at Morling College will be speaking on the topic of “Women: 19th Century and today”. 282 00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:03,030 And other talks will also be presented by Claire Smith, Jocelyn Loane, and Kate Snell. 283 00:17:03,749 --> 00:17:11,329 To find out more and to register, visit the Priscilla & Aquila Centre website, paa.moore.edu.au. 284 00:17:12,399 --> 00:17:15,339 That's paa.moore.edu.au. 285 00:17:16,984 --> 00:17:23,964 For the first time ever, we are conducting a listener survey to help us to get to know you and how you interact with the CCL podcast. 286 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:26,230 We'd love it if you could fill it in. 287 00:17:27,070 --> 00:17:32,930 There are only 10 questions and they're on stuff like how long you've been listening to the podcast, whether you listen on your phone, 288 00:17:32,930 --> 00:17:39,929 your tablet, or your computer, or if you just read the transcripts and what you most like and least like about the podcast, it should take 289 00:17:39,929 --> 00:17:46,060 around five to 10 minutes to complete and your responses will really help us as we consider how to improve the podcast moving forward. 290 00:17:46,925 --> 00:17:56,885 You can find the survey link in the episode description or the show notes, or visit ccl.moore.edu.au/podcastsurvey. 291 00:17:57,035 --> 00:18:03,295 That's one word, ccl.moore.edu.au/podcastsurvey. 292 00:18:04,115 --> 00:18:05,165 Thank you again for your support. 293 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:07,840 And now let's get back to our program. 294 00:18:08,170 --> 00:18:13,140 So it spoke on Christian motherhood, not just on Christian parenthood. 295 00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:19,950 Can you speak about the particularities you see in being a mother as opposed to being a father or just being a parent in general? 296 00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:20,590 Yeah. 297 00:18:20,949 --> 00:18:23,820 Well, the first thing to say, of course, is a lot is very similar. 298 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:29,420 It's not like there's one way to be a Christian for a woman particularly and another for a man. 299 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:31,590 So much of the Bible is written to both men and women. 300 00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:34,670 And so much we could say about parenting is true for both of us. 301 00:18:35,355 --> 00:18:41,254 But I think there's a distinction because we understand as Christians that God has made us men or women. 302 00:18:41,285 --> 00:18:44,835 Like there's a distinctive there and it's a good and beautiful distinctive. 303 00:18:45,255 --> 00:18:48,815 It's not that you're human with a side of man or human with a side of woman. 304 00:18:48,825 --> 00:18:52,400 You are human in the type of man and human in the type of woman. 305 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,970 So everything I do as a woman is going to be a bit different because I'm doing it as a woman. 306 00:18:57,430 --> 00:19:02,250 In reading for the book, I did read a lot of studies that look at the differences in parenting. 307 00:19:02,269 --> 00:19:06,080 And I find that stuff really interesting, actually, like the sort of stuff that, you 308 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,550 know, dads tend to play more roughly with their kids and moms tend to be more gentle. 309 00:19:09,889 --> 00:19:13,800 But the problem with all these studies and why I didn't end up putting them in the book is. 310 00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:16,860 They're based on generalizations of what men and women are like. 311 00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:18,000 And there's always differences. 312 00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:20,280 Like I'm sure you can think of, I can think of a family. 313 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,820 I know where the mom is a much more rough player and the dad's a very gentle type. 314 00:19:24,199 --> 00:19:31,194 So I don't think generalizations help, but I think it's worth noticing that places where scripture does kind of draw out that there's a difference. 315 00:19:31,195 --> 00:19:33,355 Difference in how we experience parental love. 316 00:19:33,825 --> 00:19:38,385 So God himself who clearly reveals himself as father at times in the Bible, he 317 00:19:38,385 --> 00:19:42,255 uses the language of motherhood as a metaphor for how he's relating to his people. 318 00:19:42,615 --> 00:19:47,735 You can think like in Isaiah 66, he talks about as a mother comforts her children, so I comfort you. 319 00:19:48,125 --> 00:19:55,034 And even Jesus, when he's weeping over Jerusalem and he's like, I long to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks, this kind of motherly love aspect. 320 00:19:55,639 --> 00:19:59,799 And we see it in 1 Thessalonians when Paul describes himself as like a mother and like a father. 321 00:20:00,230 --> 00:20:03,710 And we see there is this distinctiveness in different parental love. 322 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,270 And further on from that, obviously the Bible sees there being a significance in the created order. 323 00:20:08,670 --> 00:20:13,619 We see that work out in the home, like in Ephesians 5, you see that the husband is going to lead the family with. 324 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:19,770 that kind of self sacrificial love that Jesus shows the church, and a wife is going to 325 00:20:19,770 --> 00:20:24,550 voluntarily submit herself to that loving leadership and she's going to respect her husband. 326 00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:27,620 So that's a dynamic we're going to see play out in our families. 327 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,279 I don't think we want to think about it as, uh, It's putting on a certain set of characteristics necessarily, 328 00:20:33,580 --> 00:20:39,959 but I think a lot of what it comes down to is just embracing that God made you man or woman by his good design. 329 00:20:40,009 --> 00:20:41,039 And we want to rejoice in that. 330 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,149 We want to rejoice that it is a good thing that I am a woman and a mother. 331 00:20:44,419 --> 00:20:46,009 That's what God made me to be. 332 00:20:46,330 --> 00:20:51,100 And I can let my kids know that I'm happy and that I'm not resenting the sex that he's given me. 333 00:20:51,199 --> 00:20:53,629 I'm rejoicing in his goodness in making me this way. 334 00:20:54,050 --> 00:20:54,850 That's really helpful. 335 00:20:54,850 --> 00:21:00,350 And as a father, though, I read the book and find it very helpful and lots of encouragement as a father, 336 00:21:00,350 --> 00:21:05,919 but I think so helpful to see the biblical clarity on the difference between being a father and a mother. 337 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,409 Lots of really helpful things in the book, your chapter on prayer, really encouraging. 338 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,089 I wonder if we could just finish by talking about two aspects. 339 00:21:14,270 --> 00:21:20,950 Where maybe motherhood can go wrong and you talk about how to deal with mum guilts, you know, when you feel like a bad 340 00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:27,050 mother, and maybe on the other side is the kind of idolatry of motherhood when we almost become too proud of how we're doing. 341 00:21:27,070 --> 00:21:29,300 Can you say something about those two extremes? 342 00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:32,840 Well, mum guilt is something that is very common. 343 00:21:32,979 --> 00:21:35,390 I think all mothers feel it, whether they're Christian or not. 344 00:21:35,780 --> 00:21:41,160 I think a lot of us just walking around with a really kind of low level grade guilt at all times. 345 00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:42,170 And I think. 346 00:21:42,620 --> 00:21:45,760 It could be appropriate or it can be inappropriate is the problem. 347 00:21:45,790 --> 00:21:49,240 So I guess as a Christian, you want to think where's the guilt coming from. 348 00:21:49,820 --> 00:21:53,870 For me, sometimes that guilt comes from comparison, which I don't think is appropriate. 349 00:21:53,870 --> 00:22:00,939 So I look at another mother and I think, so even the other day I was spending time with a mother who had really carefully chronicled every 350 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:07,514 detail of her children's lives, like she had photo books and journals with everything they said and all these cute things they'd done. 351 00:22:07,935 --> 00:22:09,904 One of my kids asked me the other day, what was my first word? 352 00:22:09,904 --> 00:22:11,445 And I'm like, I've got nothing. 353 00:22:11,615 --> 00:22:12,395 I can't remember. 354 00:22:12,655 --> 00:22:13,425 Isn't that terrible? 355 00:22:13,855 --> 00:22:15,844 Anyway, I don't remember my first word either. 356 00:22:15,844 --> 00:22:17,864 And I seem to be functioning as a human without that. 357 00:22:17,864 --> 00:22:21,145 But I think you can look at that and think, gee, I'm doing this wrong. 358 00:22:21,145 --> 00:22:21,954 I've yeah. 359 00:22:21,955 --> 00:22:24,444 So I think there can be this comparison that comes in. 360 00:22:24,455 --> 00:22:26,294 And actually I think social media has made that. 361 00:22:26,585 --> 00:22:27,325 Even worse. 362 00:22:27,325 --> 00:22:29,165 Like I'm not taking my kid on that holiday. 363 00:22:29,565 --> 00:22:31,645 They're not winning the Irish dancing competition. 364 00:22:31,655 --> 00:22:33,285 You know, what's wrong with my kid. 365 00:22:33,705 --> 00:22:35,675 So there can be this comparison thing. 366 00:22:35,915 --> 00:22:39,575 I think also our limited capacity can drive our guilt. 367 00:22:39,585 --> 00:22:43,834 So sometimes I have in my head, this is list of things I want to be doing with my kids. 368 00:22:43,834 --> 00:22:44,074 And. 369 00:22:44,535 --> 00:22:46,395 I just don't have the hours in the day to do it. 370 00:22:46,395 --> 00:22:49,504 I don't have the energy or the stamina to do all the things. 371 00:22:49,855 --> 00:22:52,895 And I can just always think I'm failing because I'm not doing everything. 372 00:22:53,355 --> 00:22:56,244 So they might be inappropriate ways that we feel guilt. 373 00:22:56,285 --> 00:23:02,315 But I guess the thing as Christians is, we know sometimes the Holy Spirit's going to convict us that we are doing something wrong. 374 00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:05,875 And the right thing to do with that guilt is not to say, Oh, well, it doesn't matter. 375 00:23:06,045 --> 00:23:08,435 I'm, I'm just tired or I'm just comparing myself. 376 00:23:08,435 --> 00:23:11,165 It's actually to say, Oh Lord, I'm sorry. 377 00:23:11,194 --> 00:23:15,645 Thank you for convicting me of how I'm not mothering the way you want me to here. 378 00:23:15,875 --> 00:23:17,104 Please help me change. 379 00:23:17,524 --> 00:23:20,604 And then actually we can let go of that guilt because we know we're forgiven. 380 00:23:20,605 --> 00:23:22,234 We don't have to carry it around. 381 00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:23,295 We don't have to wallow in it. 382 00:23:23,665 --> 00:23:26,445 Knowing forgiveness can really free us from that. 383 00:23:26,725 --> 00:23:32,515 Knowing that no situation is beyond being redeemed by God, that he uses us even in our sin and our mess. 384 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,410 to achieve his purposes in our kids lives. 385 00:23:35,730 --> 00:23:38,510 So there's the real weight that can be lifted from Christian mums. 386 00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:44,430 And I think actually we don't need to be walking around with mum guilt because we have the goodness of the gospel to deal with guilt. 387 00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:53,020 I think the idolatry side of things can happen when we start to get our value and our meaning and our significance from being a mum. 388 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,610 And if you're someone who's very thoughtful about motherhood and you're putting 389 00:23:56,610 --> 00:24:00,115 a lot of energy and effort into that relationship, It can slip that way. 390 00:24:00,544 --> 00:24:06,264 I guess we want to see our mothering as being something ultimately that we're doing for God, to His glory. 391 00:24:06,294 --> 00:24:08,245 We're doing it out of our love for Him. 392 00:24:08,625 --> 00:24:12,095 It's not that we somehow have to think our love for our children is competing with our love for God. 393 00:24:12,095 --> 00:24:14,414 So we need to love our kids a bit less so we love God more. 394 00:24:14,434 --> 00:24:17,764 No, we're loving our children as a way of loving Christ. 395 00:24:17,774 --> 00:24:19,534 It kind of comes in the same package. 396 00:24:19,985 --> 00:24:26,530 So I think we need to ask ourselves sometimes, If we're making our kids an idol, if we're getting too much of our sense of who we 397 00:24:26,530 --> 00:24:32,800 are from our relationships with our kids, if we're devastated when our kid fails at something, that might be a sign we've done that. 398 00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:40,340 Or if our family culture is revolving around the kids and their needs as this anxious focus on our children, that might show we're doing that. 399 00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:45,409 Or if we're kind of making our children's choices about us, like how they reflect on us and 400 00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:50,340 making them about our glory, that could be a way that would make our kids an idol as well. 401 00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:51,150 Brilliant. 402 00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:53,740 Well, Joss, thanks very much for coming on the podcast. 403 00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:57,900 Thanks for writing such a helpful book and really appreciate your time today. 404 00:24:58,030 --> 00:25:00,142 Thanks for having me, Pete. 405 00:25:00,142 --> 00:25:02,919 To benefit from more resources from 406 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,280 the Centre for Christian Living, please visit ccl. 407 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,120 moore. 408 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:21,180 edu. 409 00:25:22,180 --> 00:25:30,180 au where you'll find a host of resources including past podcast episodes, videos from our live events, and 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