Hi there, and welcome to Notes from the Stage,
a show from the musicians of the Calgary Philharmonic.
We're the people playing our hearts out every
week of the orchestra season. I'm Adam Zanatelli.
Usually I play first trumpet in the Calgary Philharmonic,
but today I'm your host, and I'm here with Nikki
Labonte, principal horn of the Calgary Philharmonic.
Hi, Nikki. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks
for sitting down with me. Boy, you've been here
for a little over a year now, right? Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. And I'm loving every single minute.
Fantastic. Well, we're loving having you on stage.
Before you were here in Calgary, you were in
Rochester, New York. Yes. Absolutely. Beautiful
Rochester, New York. Wonderful. And you were
in, you were in the orchestra there. I was, yeah.
Yep. For on and off for about six years. So,
uh, I was there a little, I did a couple, one
years, uh, other places and warmed up out of
the cold Rochester North. But yeah, I'm super
happy to be here. I have bad news for you about
cold weather. What do you mean? No, absolutely.
I mean, it's. I have absolutely loved Calgary.
It's been an amazing place to work. The orchestra
is so friendly and so welcoming. I've mentioned
this to you off podcast, but one of the things
that I have loved the most is that I really feel
that the musicians are so supportive of each
other. And it really feels like an environment
where you can take risks and take chances and
people are rooting for you to succeed. And sometimes
that is just so... rare in other environments.
And it's so precious when you have that in your
workplace and you feel empowered to try new things
and take some risks. And, you know, you always
want to dial it in for the concert, but, you
know, not not being afraid that your colleagues
are going to penalize you for making a mistake
in a rehearsal. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I
think in every organization, there's sort of
this institutional culture. Right. And at the
orchestra, we have control over that on the stage.
You know, because it's the same group of players,
more or less. You know, we have extras filling
out our ranks and helping us out on a regular
basis. But if we have our core orchestra and
those people are there all the time and we play
together, we play for each other, we know each
other's playing so well, just out of sheer exposure
that, yeah, there's a soloist who's a guest.
Yeah, there's a conductor who's a guest. But
most of those bodies on the stage, we get to
build that culture for ourselves. Absolutely.
it's so important to have that healthy work environment
that comes from the musicians. And outside influences
can absolutely affect that, but it just feels,
being here, I know, again, I've only been here
for a little longer than a year, but it already
feels like such a great place to make music and
to pursue that artistic excellence because there
is that freedom to try new things and to push
the boundary without feeling like people are
going to penalize you for, moving a little too
far outside of that boundary one time, you know
what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, look,
as Principal Horn, it's your job to take big
risks. Sure, and sometimes have big failures.
Well, otherwise it's not a risk, right? That's
right, it's true. I don't know if you have the
same experience, but I always feel like I'm making
the most compelling music when I'm working on
the fringes of my capability. Yeah, absolutely.
There's this great analogy that I tell my students
a lot. It's from a scene in the third Christian
Bale Batman movie, which I cannot recommend from
a cinematic point of view. But while watching
the movie, there was one scene that particularly
stuck out to me. Batman is Bane is terrorizing
Gotham and Batman was in a hole and Batman has
to get out of the hole through this obstacle
course. And he's recovering and making his way
through this obstacle course to get out of the
hole. And at the end of this, there's one big
jump. and Batman has the safety rope on that
prevents him from falling to his death every
time he misses a jump, just gently lowers him
back down. And there's a montage of him trying
to make that jump with the rope on, and he can't
make it. And at this point, he's fully physically
recovered, so he's not sure what that impediment
is. And he realizes, when Gotham needs him the
most, that the thing that's holding him back
is the safety rope. And he realizes that the
only way to make the jump is to take that rope
off. If he takes the rope off and he misses,
he'll fall to his death and Gotham will forever
be terrorized by this evil super villain. But
the only way that he can get out is to take that
risk and to put his life on the line. Horn playing
is like that, but with no death involved, right?
So, I mean, I mean, never say never. That's right.
Exactly. Thus far, no death involved. So, you
know, you have to take that risk in order to
achieve your best product. And you know that
you might totally eat it in a concert. And I've
definitely had concerts where I'm sure that that
misnode is still ringing around some crevice
of the auditorium. I've never had that experience.
Lucky you. But yeah, I it's always that that
risk taking thing of, you know, yeah, you can
absolutely messed up. But the only way to achieve
that really high level artistic excellence is
is through that risk, through that danger. Yeah,
absolutely. If you don't want to leave Batman
in there, that's OK. No, that's great. You tell
that you tell that story really well. Really,
really well. I've told it to a lot of students.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really not a good movie.
I would not recommend watching it. Well, you
know, they can't all be hits. No. If you can
find something great out of it, that's that's
wonderful. I try for bad movies to take one thing
that I can use in my daily life, you know. Yeah.
Are you a big movie person? I love watching movies.
I try to watch every Oscar Best Picture nominee
every year and it lets me play along. I also
find, you know, you look for parallels in everything,
right? And there's lots of parallels to art and
the way that film is and the trends in film and
the way directors create things and the way actors
create things within the director's supervision
that correspond to music. I find that. really
fascinating and like that's a great analogy for
what we do right like yeah we're the people making
the sound yeah but we have to work with these
conductors who are up front leading the orchestra
and bringing their interpretation and their guidance
to what we're doing but we have to be the ones
we're the actors who are taking this script that
the composer wrote yeah and taking the direction
of the conductor and actually doing the thing
oh totally totally and it's always fun to see
performances and see what direction film is going.
And even if I disagree, see what the Academy
is awarding, you know, like what, what the, I
really think that, you know, this is maybe a
tangent, but it's so cool for cinema to have
a like universally respected gathering. and recognition
of great artists and great performances and great
directing. And while the Grammys have that a
little bit, I feel like it's much more, it's
much more focused on the Oscars, you know, and
you get to see so many of these individual actors'
performances and like highlighting them, even
if like sometimes the movie is not good, but
they deliver a great performance in the movie.
And that... you know, being able to recognize
that, being able to have consensus around that
and have people participate in that process.
And I find that that is really amazing. I wish
we had more of that culture of recognizing that
great achievement, you know, for individuals
and for groups, you know, in the way that we,
that the music culture is at large, you know?
Yeah, that's a really interesting point. And,
you know, there's not always real consensus that
everyone decides this one's the best this year,
but I think that the discussion is the point,
right? That idea of taking this art, listening
to it or watching it, and then working through
it, thinking about it, discussing it with others
who might not agree with you about it. We have
these discussions backstage all the time. I mean,
right before I was setting up to record today,
we were talking about which Brahms symphony is
your favorite. Yeah. Exactly. And sidebar, which
Brahms symphony is your favorite? It's Brahms
Four, which we played earlier this season, actually.
That's right. Yeah, and everything is so subjective.
And I can love certain conductors' interpretations
of Brahms Four. I can love the way that certain
orchestras play that piece. And other people
might not like that, but there is that discussion
that we get to have about it. And everything
is so subjective, but there are big points that
you can come together on. and really recognizing
great playing, even if it's not always your speed.
You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Thinking
about movies, you know, in 2019... Uh, 1917 and
Parasite were the two movies that were front
runners for Best Picture. And I saw both of them.
I loved 1917. I mean, it was such a powerful
movie for me. I remember like crying for 10 minutes
in the theater afterwards just because it was
such a like emotionally impactful film. And I
really liked Parasite. And while it wasn't a
movie that was like more up my alley, it was
really interesting and had a really creative
concept and a really neat screenplay and Parasite
ended up winning. And while I would have liked
to see 1917 win, I can acknowledge that like
Parasite is a movie that deserved to win best
picture. In a lot of ways. It was a really, really
fantastic film and did a lot more progressive
things for the art than a movie like 1917, you
know? And I think music can be like that, you
know? Something might not be my particular taste,
but I can recognize that the impact that it's
having on the art form or the impact that that
group is having or the impact that that conductor
is having and recognize that that's really important.
And even if I don't always love every decision
that's being made, I can see the influence in
how that affects the community, you know? Totally.
Yeah, it's almost like these things can sort
of move the Overton window on what, you know,
what we think about and what we think music can
be, what we think cinema can be. It's very interesting,
you know? And, you know, listeners, one thing
that you might be noticing is that many of the
musicians in the orchestra are very opinionated
or very interested in other art forms. And this
is not, I believe, a coincidence. No, it's really
fun to... I think observe an art form that you're
not an expert in and make assessments and make
judgments and have that opinion, that opinionated
quality about other things that you're less personally
invested in. You know what I mean? And that's
why I love going to the movies. I love keeping
tabs on everything that's happening. But yeah,
we are really opinionated. I think a lot of why
we're all here and why we all have... been successful
and enough to get these jobs is because we're
opinionated and because we feel really strongly
about something. I think if you don't feel really
strongly about the thing that you're doing, then
it's probably not worth doing, you know? Like
if you just kind of feel lukewarm on a lot of
ideas, maybe you should be doing something else
that kind of gets you more fired up, you know?
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, music is hard.
There are a lot of things that are really hard.
I mean, I tell my students, like I don't... I
don't discourage them, but I tell them, you know,
if you can see yourself being happy and being
fulfilled doing anything else, you should do
the other thing. You should, because you'll have
more free time, you'll have more money probably,
you'll have more time, a more flexible schedule,
a more ideal schedule with, with how the world
works. You know, it, you'll, you'll be happy
if you can do the other thing and feel fulfilled.
But if you can't do anything else. then you should
do music. If you really need that artistic influence
in your life, that's the thing that you have
to do. And so if you don't feel like this is
the thing that I have to be doing, and I have
strong opinions on what I have to say and what
I can put out there, then yeah, I think that
maybe... do something else, right? That inspires
that in you, you know, that gives you that fulfillment
where you feel like I have something unique to
say and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing.
Yeah, that's really interesting. You know, I
was thinking about the way that we're opinionated.
We musicians, everyone on stage has big opinions,
but in an orchestra, like we all have these opinions,
but we're all on a team together, right? So it
becomes a really interesting challenge. to figure
out how do we square our own feelings about something
with sort of the larger direction that the ensemble
is pulling. And you as Principal Horn, you have
to be a real chameleon in your job because you're
one of the primary solo voices of the orchestra.
You also play what's very often a supporting
role, right? The horn plays a lot. Right. You
know, and in romantic repertoire, for example,
I mean, like, take, we play some Tchaikovsky
earlier this season. We're playing some Tchaikovsky
coming up in February. Right. We're playing an
all -Tchaikovsky concert. Like, the horn is constantly
playing, and sometimes it's long notes, sometimes
it's repeated notes. Sometimes you're playing,
you know, moving harmonies with things, but like,
you have to go from being this totally supportive...
player, even in the principal chair, to then,
you know, you turn the page and you have, you
know, this glorious lyrical solo or something
where you have to be very opinionated and have
full conviction in your own musical vision of
something. It must be very difficult to switch
gears so quickly. Totally. And it's something
that I think requires a lot of practice. I like
to think of the horn as the liaison of the woodwinds
and brass, and there's a lot of times where we
would play with the winds and be that supporting
voice. You know, the horn is in both wind quintet
and brass quintet, and playing in both gives
you a really different skill set. There's a great
quote from my teacher's teacher, Vern Reynolds,
and he said, you know, what's the first thing
you do when you get a woodwind quintet gig? You
find a brass quintet gig. And I think that there
is some truth to that in that you have to be
able to balance out those two skills as to be
a complete horn player. There's a lot of times
where you have to be able to put out a lot of
sound and not just keel over when the rest of
the brass is playing as well, but then fade into
the background and create that more transparent
color when you're playing with the winds and
then find your own voice. And there's a lot of
navigation to that. I find it really exciting.
We talked about Brahms earlier. One of the things
that I like the most about Brahms is that you
can really get into this flow of embodying these
different colors and Brahms orchestrates in such
a great way that it allows that really smooth
transition where you can do all of those things
in a symphony. It doesn't feel as the changes
and transitions don't feel as sharp, you know?
And I think it just takes a lot of practice to
do that. And, you know, I remember this quote,
from Principal Horn of a major orchestra. And
he told me something, he's like, you know, when
I'm on stage, it's my job to lead. And it's not
an ego thing, but I'm being paid to have that
role. And if I don't do that, I'm delegating
that responsibility to somebody else, to the
rest of the section, to other people in the orchestra.
And they're not being paid enough to do that.
That's not their job. And it's unfair to make
them do that. It's unfair to make them take on
that responsibility. So I certainly don't think
that I'm the best musician in the orchestra and
that I have all the musical ideas and musical
solutions, but I know that it's my job to lead
and to be demonstrative. And of course, I'm receptive
and supportive and work as a team with my colleagues'
ideas, but I can't just be that supportive role
because it's also my job to lead and to be that
soloistic voice and to be present because I find
that when I'm playing with somebody who's really
leading in another section, it's way easier to
do my job. And if I give up that responsibility,
it just puts that burden on somebody else and
that's not fair, you know? So it's a really delicate
balance, but I think it's not so much an ego
thing. It's not that I think I'm the best. I
definitely don't, but it's that sense of collaboration
and knowing when it's your moment and that, you
know, taking that leadership role or taking that
supportive role and being a team player really
makes things easier for everybody. Totally. You
know, I'm in a similar sort of position where
I always think I have to show up with a flexible
plan, you know, and be willing to change, be
ready to take in other people's ideas and the
conductor's ideas, and just listen to the sound
in the hall and make adjustments based on that.
But if I don't show up with an idea of how it's
gonna go, like, we start our rehearsals so far
behind. Yeah. Because, like, you can always change
something. Some can say, ah, it's too loud, play
it softer. Oh, this should be more lyrical, not
quite as, as pointed, but... if you show up with
nothing, then, like, it's really hard to build
something. And it certainly takes more time,
and that's usually time that we don't have. I
also find that I will think a lot of times of
attempting to convince my colleagues and convince
the conductor of my approach, you know? And I'm
gonna play this in a way that's so convincing
and so compelling that... Whatever ideas the
conductor might have had or whatever ideas my
colleagues might have had they might be influenced
by those I'm not saying that my way or the highway,
you know, I'm open to changing but if I play
it in such a good in such a convincing way that
Everybody knows what I'm doing. Everybody knows
what I'm going for. They're more likely to latch
on to that and I I won't have to make as many
shifts because I was so convincing in the first
place. Yeah. But at the same time, you might
think, I've got this one pinned and you show
up to work and you hear someone else make the
same phrase in a different way. And you think,
Oh, yeah. Oh, how did I miss that idea? Happens
all the time. It happens all the time. I mean,
that's, that's the joy of, you know, collaborating.
Otherwise I'd just record principal horn parts
in my room at home. Right. Exactly. Does it,
does it sound like a really musically fulfilling
career for me? Well, aside from your work on
stage at the CPO, you are also the editor, one
of the editors of The Horn Call. On the editorial
board. The newly formed editorial board of The
Horn Call, that's right. And The Horn Call is?
The Horn Call is the International Horn Society's
trade journal. I love The Horn Call. I mean,
speaking of getting new ideas, you know, I'm
not just saying this because I'm on the editorial
board. I... always am able to find some inspiration
in the horn call and find inspiration in the
things that people are doing and the academic
avenues that they're exploring and pursuing.
And, you know, they'll do the horn call those
interviews with established professionals and
then they'll feature student doctoral papers
and they feature a lot of different things. And
I always find that I can be inspired by. by those
articles and a lot of times incorporate them
into what I'm doing. I think sometimes musicians
can be divided into two categories of performer
and academic, and I really don't love to see
that in the music community. I think there are
a lot of ways in which academic pursuits can
positively influence my performance and vice
versa. Being a performer as a teacher, helps
me put my ideas into practice on a daily basis.
I have to problem solve, and then I can take
that into my students. And seeing the issues
that practically affect me inform my academic
pursuits as well. And for me, that's what makes
it really exciting, is that academic influence.
And we can see that in a lot of avenues. I mean,
I love, also on our season this year was Scheherazade.
I love that piece. I love that piece because
I think that when you listen to it through the
first time, you'll think, wow, that is a great
piece. And then if you look at the program notes
and you look at the programmatic elements and
the way that Rimsky -Korsakov places these themes
and the changes that he makes to them as the
piece evolves, I mean, I think it's just masterful.
But it's a piece that stands the test of time.
in that if you don't know any of that, it still
sounds really great. But if you do know it, it
just like, it blows my mind every time. There
are moments of that piece where I'm not playing
and I know like, I've looked at the score and
I know this one orchestrational detail and it's
like, every time the strings switch their string
at the beginning of the third movement, I'm like,
that's amazing. It's just a thing that you listen
for in it. You know, we play the same piece all
the time. We play the same pieces, you know,
year after year and you have to keep them fresh.
And so that's like one of the things that helps
me do that is exploring that academic side, being
able to do that analysis and see what other people
are saying. So I know that was kind of a tangent
from the horn call. No, no, no, that's great.
That's great. You know, when we play the same
music over and over, over the years, as part
of our job, I find that it's a real bellwether
of whether a piece is great or not, right? Because
when you play Scheherazade for the... 20th time
in however many years, when you still go, oh,
this part, oh, I love this, ooh, oh, the colors,
the colors, you know, like, that's a great indication
that it's great music that's worth playing, right?
Absolutely. You know, a Brahms symphony, we're
talking about Brahms symphonies. Every time you
play a Brahms symphony, you think, oh, oh, isn't
this just the most beautiful music, right? And
you find new things in it, even if you've played
it over and over. And part of that's because
a colleague shows up with a new idea. about something
that you've never heard before, you know? And
the great music allows that to be a part of what
we're making in the room there. Yeah, there's
so much on the page, but then there's so much
that's really subjective. You know, there's always
so much detail on the page and if you just do
what's on the page, you'll be pretty close. You
know, but then there's actually a lot of wiggle
room in there, you know, that leaves room for...
improvisation and not in the jazz sense. I can't
just make up the notes. Sometimes I wish I could,
but I can't do that, you know. But there's so
much room for, oh, should I move this phrase
to here or should I move it here? You know, what's
everybody else doing? How do I feel like I can
influence that in a way that's not disruptive,
you know? Yeah. I always tell my students that
like the music, quote unquote, music on the page,
that's not a comprehensive, sacred document,
right? That is the composer's best attempt at
writing down this idea of what they want it to
sound like. And some composers are extremely
meticulous with their markings and there's so
much information on the page. Some composers
there's very little information on the page.
But I think regardless, it can never capture
the wholeness of the idea that the composer has
in their head. And sometimes, especially if the
music isn't quite as great as, say, a Brahms
symphony or Scheherazade, a great performance
depends on a musician's interpretation bringing
it to life. And that's going to be different
depending on who's performing it. And that's
one of the joys of it. Like, you play a Mozart
horn concerto or Haydn trumpet concerto, right?
There's very little on the page. Because the
composer just didn't write much, right? Because
that was how they did it back then. And that's
a huge opportunity for us, right? Because we
get to make a ton of decisions. We're not fenced
into certain phrase shapes or certain note lengths.
Right. Yeah, absolutely. And there are a lot
of things that can inform your performance. You
know, if you approach it from a historical perspective,
like there are a lot of... clues about note lengths
or dynamic markings or, you know, looking at
the natural horn, the way that they would have
played it, what notes would have been covered,
what notes would have been open, right? Can you
explain that a little bit for a lay person? Yeah.
Because you play a bit of natural horn. I do.
As well. I taught a semester of natural horn
at the Eastman School of Music. So originally,
the horn was primarily a hunting instrument with
one fixed length of tubing. Originally, the horn
was kind of limited in the number of notes that
it could play in a certain tone color. And you
would use your hand to correct the pitch and
to cover notes in order to achieve that full,
the full spectrum of all of the notes. And so
each note would have a slightly different tone
color. The way that the modern horn is designed,
you can play every note with roughly the same
tone color and the same sound. But a lot of times
those covered notes can give you hints about
where the phrase is going or what note would
be that tension point because that note would
have been covered and it's a slightly more abrasive
sound. And when you say covered, you mean that
the horn player would use their right hand in
the bell and they would change. I mean, your
right hand is always in the bell when you're
playing the horn, which is a whole other. That's
why the right hand is in the bell. I get that's
the most frequently asked question is why is
the right hand in the bell? Originally, your
right hand was doing a lot to change the pitch.
You would actually close. the heel of your hand
across the bell, and that changes the frequency
of the note, it also changes the color, but it
was the only way to achieve those notes. So if
you wanted to be able to play a scale, for instance,
you'd have to close and open your hand a bunch
of times. Whereas now I can play a scale just
by changing my valves, which is great. It allows
for a more even tone color, but there is a little
bit of that charm that's lost. And so when we
look at something like a Mozart horn concerto,
there are notes that would have been covered,
that would have had that slightly more abrasive
sound, and then you get to resolve to an open
note. And so if I'm playing that on the modern
horn, I'm not going to cover those notes, but
I'm going to think about, well, that note would
have been covered. So if I think about kind of
trying to emulate that tension and release, I'm
going to be a little more, I have a little more
insight into what Mozart was thinking when he
wrote that, because that's the instrument that
he wrote it for, that natural horn color. with
the horn player with their right hand in the
bell to get all the notes is that why when valves
were added the the horn unlike every other instrument
is doing the valves with your left hand yes yes
absolutely that's why and now the right hand
has become a little more dormant i still will
use the right hand to kind of slightly correct
pitch the way that a trombone player might slightly
adjust their slide position based on intonation
And you can still change color. We can do stop
torn, which is a color that a lot of modern composers
will feature. I can still do that with my hand,
but the right hand has become a more passive
hand compared to the left hand where I do all
of my fingering work. But yeah, that's originally
why is the right hand was the dominant hand for
horn playing. And then as the instrument evolved,
it became necessity that it was the left hand,
you know? As we were setting up to record today,
you were telling me about a book that you were
reading. Yes. And you were very excited about
this. And I said, no, no, Nikki, hold that thought.
I've been holding it. OK, OK. Now it's time.
I was talking with somebody recently about a
really influential moment in my collegiate career
and where I feel like I had a really big breakthrough.
And that moment for me came after I read this
book. Called bounce. It's by Matthew Syed. It's
not about music. It's about sports really but
it's the thesis of the book is that talent is
a myth and Any instance you could come up with
for talent, you know child prodigies all of those
things can be debunked not only is telling a
myth but the belief in talent can actually be
detrimental to a performer to a student of anything.
Let me explain a little bit. So instead of talent,
Matthew Syed lists three things that actually
make a great performer. And those are practice,
exposure to expert coaching, and exposure to
opportunity. And when we think of a child prodigy,
that person just had access to all three of those
things sooner than almost everybody else. So
if we think of an example like Mozart, people
will say, well, Mozart was composing symphonies
at age 16, and he totally was. But Mozart had
been composing since the age of four, studying
with his father, Leopold Mozart, who was probably
the best teacher that anybody could get at that
time, and had a lot of access to opportunity
because of his father's connections to the music
world. So Mozart is just doing what most composers
are doing. but from a much earlier age. And for
me, that really made a difference in my studies
because I don't think I was ever like the most
naturally gifted at horn. I didn't pick it up
super fast. And I think sometimes when students
hear a great performer or a great performance,
they'll think, man, I don't know how I'm ever
gonna get there. And it can be really demoralizing,
honestly, when you're great music -making. For
me, knowing that it was those three elements,
hard work, access to expert coaching, opportunity,
that made it feel way more achievable. The only
thing standing between me and that horn player
I really admire and really look up to is those
three things. And I can control hard work and
I can make sure I find access to expert coaching.
And if I do both of those things, opportunities
will come and I'll be ready for them. And if
you believe in that talent, that thing that you
have something that's outside of your control,
it can really disempower you. And you feel like
you're almost the victim of whatever circumstance,
like, I'll never be that good. That person is
just talented. They have something that I don't.
And in reality, they don't have that. And so
for me, reading that book and having that realization
and applying it to music really motivated me
because I knew that I could get wherever I wanted
to. just with those three things, two of which
I can really directly influence. It felt like
a much more empowering thing. It felt like it
put me more on the offensive instead of comparing
myself to others and, well, I'm not there yet,
and well, such and such got a job when they were
this year old. it really allowed me to be like,
well, they probably had access to those things
sooner than I did. And that's okay. You know,
it's not a race, but it allowed me to be more
forward and forward thinking in my mindset. Like,
well, I can get there, you know, even if I'm
out there now, I can get there, you know? That's
really interesting. Yeah. And that's a, that
sort of three pronged way of thinking about it
is new to me. That's very interesting for me.
When, whenever people talk about talent, I love
to just ask them what they mean. What do you
mean when you say talent? And that devolves into
confusion very quickly because it feels like
this concept that, you know, everyone intuitively
knows what talent is. But really, do they? Is
it a predisposition towards something mentally,
physically? Is it a ceiling of maximum achievement
that's inherently possible for that person? Is
it? You know, like, what is it? I haven't found
a good definition of what it means. So, I don't
know, throwing the whole concept out entirely
feels interesting, worth thinking about. Yeah,
I never use that word with my students. I never
use talent. Because, you know, in that book,
there are several studies where they had students
solve a math, like take a math test. And after
the test... They told a group of students like,
wow, you must have worked really hard on this.
You did such a great job. I know you put in a
lot of effort and that's what really paid off.
And then they told the other group of students,
wow, you're really good at this. You must be
really naturally talented. And the students that
they told were naturally talented, they actually
did worse on future tests. And the students that
they told, hey, you must have worked really hard.
They did better because it's that sense of like,
I worked really hard and that's why I got it.
And when those students that were told they were
talented were faced with a challenging problem,
they were like, well, if I don't get it now,
I'm never going to get it because I guess I'm
just not that talented. You know, it became this
thing where like either you have it or you don't.
And so I'll never tell my students that they're
talented, you know, and not that anybody like
if somebody tells me I'm talented, I'm going
to take it as a compliment. I'm not going to
say, well, actually. Read this book. Right. I
just have copies of it. I'm the number one book
salesman for Bounce. I'll always take it as a
compliment because I know that that's how they're
intending it to be, but I won't say any of that
to my students or tell it to myself because I
find that it can be really undermining actually
to the goals that you want to achieve. Yeah,
you were saying that bounce is a book that's
largely framed around sports and Nikki I've worked
with you long enough that I know you were an
avid sports fan. I am an avid sports fan I I
know that I follow different sports than you
do So, please tell us about your teams. Well
My primary team for better or for worse is the
Miami Dolphins the NFL team I love them very
dearly. I was born into the fan base and it's
a burden that I can never shake off. They've
been bad pretty much my whole life. This is our
year, though, I'm convinced. And now if you had
asked me that last year, I probably would have
said the same thing. But now I really mean it.
And now for the audience, we are recording this
a little bit ways ahead of when it's airing.
So maybe Nikki's statement will sound very silly.
They're currently doing pretty bad, but I'm hopeful
that the season will turn around for us. Ever
the optimist. I mean, I really like sports, you
know, similar to what we were talking about with
other art forms. I see a lot of overlap in sports
and in sports psychology and how athletes perform.
I've talked with a sports psychologist about
my performing a little bit. Yeah. I mean, it's
really It's really, really interesting. And the
narratives that are behind that, behind sports
performance and everything, you know, I just
watched this past summer was the Olympics and
I love the Olympics. I watched them like 24 hours
a day. Love it. And there are so many narratives
and there are so many stories that are behind
each of those performances. And you can see,
you know, you're self -reflected in that as a
performing musician. Now I'm not like running
a marathon, but There are aspects of that that
I see in my own playing. And one of the things,
getting back to the Miami Dolphins, one of the
things that I really like about that is the influence
of their coach. His name is Mike McDaniel. As
of the filming of this episode, his name is Mike
McDaniel. And one of the things that I really
love about Mike McDaniel is the quarterback of
the Dolphins was really struggling. Mike McDaniel
comes in and he makes him... puts together a
700 play tape of all of this guy's best plays.
700 plays where he was like, you look great in
this play. You're doing all the right things.
You deserve to be here. You are the caliber to
play in this league. You do not need to have
any doubts about your playing because I've put
together 700 plays where you are doing that and
you are doing all the right things. And the next
season after he did that, That quarterback had
an awesome season. He led the league in passing
yards because of that influence of that coach
and that positive mindset and believing in that
player and not waiting, you know, similar to
what we were talking about at the beginning of
this episode, rooting for him, wanting him to
do well, empowering him to take risks and not
waiting for him to mess up so he could replace
him with someone else. You know, giving him that
vote of confidence right off the bat. that really
empowered him to have a fantastic season, you
know? That's amazing. It's wonderful. It's cool.
And I love those narratives. And, you know, I
know sometimes like people are like, ah, I'm
not really into sports and that's okay. I don't
fault them for it, but I see those narratives
in sports and it like really motivates me, you
know? And I don't have a coach if anybody would
like to apply, I'm accepting applications, right?
But I don't have a coach, but I see myself as
being that own... role for myself. You know,
we spend so much time in the practice room on
our own. We have to be our own coaches and how
I can apply that to me, like how I can find the
good things in my playing and bring those to
my attention instead of that tendency to just
focus on the bad things, focus on that one time
I messed up, you know? Yeah. You know, we spend
all of our training, you know, preparing for
lessons every week and, you know, getting relentless
criticism from all around us to get better and
better and better. And then we become professionals
and that sort of goes away. Yeah. Right. Well,
lucky us. We're surrounded by great musicians.
Like today, before we recorded this podcast,
I, you know, I said, Nikki, can I just play for
you for half an hour and get some feedback before
before we press record on this? And we did. It
was great. Yeah. And thank you for your input.
It's totally like. a pleasure to do that because
I know that that relationship goes both ways.
Totally. And there's that feedback that you can
get from that outside party that, yeah, makes
everybody better because we're all kind of working
together. Yeah, exactly. So with that in mind,
you know, we're surrounded by all these great
musicians every week, you know, every day we're
at the office. Who's someone in the orchestra
who's playing you admire? Oh, wow. I mean, there's
so many. There are so many. I. Hmm. I'll stick
to the horn section and I'll say that the person
who's playing I admire a lot is Max, who plays
third horn. Now, I'm a little biased because
Max and I actually went to high school together,
but Max is an excellent third horn player. He
is really, really fantastic at all of the demands
of the job. Third horn is a really tough role.
Each member of the horn section has a slightly
different skill set, a slightly different specialty.
my dad is not really into music, and so I describe
it to him as like a member of a football team,
right? Everybody's an athlete, everybody is physically
fit, but everybody does something slightly different.
And the things that Max does at Third Horn, he's
so solid and he's so reliable, but he can also
have that solo voice when he needs to. He is
so flexible in his approach and... is constantly
matching other people, matching me, matching
other members of the section, and then taking
that leadership role because of the way that
the horn parts are written. And I am totally
in admiration of what he's able to do. It's all
a different skill set. And I know that I could
not do it as well as he's doing it. And yeah,
I really admire his playing. It's a total pleasure
to have him. in the section, again, I feel so
supported by everybody, but it's been an absolute
joy to sit in front of him and hear just the
finesse and the polish and the delicate nature
with which he approaches a lot of things that
is just so sublime. It's often an underrated
skill. I don't think a lot of people in the audience
might pick up on it as much, but it is just like
expert level. Third horn playing. Yeah. Fantastic.
Max is always a treat to hear and a great colleague
to work with. Oh, for sure. For sure. He definitely
brings a lot of positive energy to the horse
section. And we love it. We love it. Excellent.
Well, Nikki, thank you so much for sitting down
with me today. This was a real treat. No problem.
Thank you so much for having me. Notes from the
stage is an independent production of the Calgary
Philharmonic Players Association. The opinions
expressed here are our own and do not reflect
those of the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra.
Our thanks to Nathan Chandler for his technical
expertise. The music you heard on this episode
was Enchanted Forest by Karen Tanaka, performed
by Nikki Labonte and pianist Priscilla Ewan.
On our next episode in two weeks, I'll be talking
with violinist Jongga Choi. Talk to you soon!