WEBVTT 00:00:36.829 --> 00:00:38.770 Hi there, and welcome to Notes from the Stage, 00:00:38.869 --> 00:00:40.950 a show from the musicians of the Calgary Philharmonic. 00:00:41.310 --> 00:00:42.929 We're the people playing our hearts out every 00:00:42.929 --> 00:00:45.710 week of the orchestra season. I'm Adam Zanatelli. 00:00:45.829 --> 00:00:48.009 Usually I play first trumpet in the Calgary Philharmonic, 00:00:48.250 --> 00:00:50.170 but today I'm your host, and I'm here with Nikki 00:00:50.170 --> 00:00:52.490 Labonte, principal horn of the Calgary Philharmonic. 00:00:52.509 --> 00:00:54.950 Hi, Nikki. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks 00:00:54.950 --> 00:00:58.149 for sitting down with me. Boy, you've been here 00:00:58.149 --> 00:01:01.070 for a little over a year now, right? Yeah, yeah, 00:01:01.070 --> 00:01:03.130 absolutely. And I'm loving every single minute. 00:01:03.570 --> 00:01:06.069 Fantastic. Well, we're loving having you on stage. 00:01:06.590 --> 00:01:08.909 Before you were here in Calgary, you were in 00:01:08.909 --> 00:01:11.469 Rochester, New York. Yes. Absolutely. Beautiful 00:01:11.469 --> 00:01:13.230 Rochester, New York. Wonderful. And you were 00:01:13.230 --> 00:01:14.950 in, you were in the orchestra there. I was, yeah. 00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:17.790 Yep. For on and off for about six years. So, 00:01:17.790 --> 00:01:20.129 uh, I was there a little, I did a couple, one 00:01:20.129 --> 00:01:23.010 years, uh, other places and warmed up out of 00:01:23.010 --> 00:01:25.510 the cold Rochester North. But yeah, I'm super 00:01:25.510 --> 00:01:27.569 happy to be here. I have bad news for you about 00:01:27.569 --> 00:01:31.810 cold weather. What do you mean? No, absolutely. 00:01:31.989 --> 00:01:34.709 I mean, it's. I have absolutely loved Calgary. 00:01:35.049 --> 00:01:38.049 It's been an amazing place to work. The orchestra 00:01:38.049 --> 00:01:41.290 is so friendly and so welcoming. I've mentioned 00:01:41.290 --> 00:01:44.670 this to you off podcast, but one of the things 00:01:44.670 --> 00:01:48.170 that I have loved the most is that I really feel 00:01:48.170 --> 00:01:50.290 that the musicians are so supportive of each 00:01:50.290 --> 00:01:53.090 other. And it really feels like an environment 00:01:53.090 --> 00:01:56.790 where you can take risks and take chances and 00:01:56.790 --> 00:01:59.810 people are rooting for you to succeed. And sometimes 00:01:59.810 --> 00:02:03.469 that is just so... rare in other environments. 00:02:03.489 --> 00:02:05.709 And it's so precious when you have that in your 00:02:05.709 --> 00:02:08.990 workplace and you feel empowered to try new things 00:02:08.990 --> 00:02:11.949 and take some risks. And, you know, you always 00:02:11.949 --> 00:02:14.409 want to dial it in for the concert, but, you 00:02:14.409 --> 00:02:16.490 know, not not being afraid that your colleagues 00:02:16.490 --> 00:02:18.629 are going to penalize you for making a mistake 00:02:18.629 --> 00:02:21.090 in a rehearsal. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I 00:02:21.090 --> 00:02:23.469 think in every organization, there's sort of 00:02:23.469 --> 00:02:26.789 this institutional culture. Right. And at the 00:02:26.789 --> 00:02:30.330 orchestra, we have control over that on the stage. 00:02:30.490 --> 00:02:33.129 You know, because it's the same group of players, 00:02:33.250 --> 00:02:34.949 more or less. You know, we have extras filling 00:02:34.949 --> 00:02:36.689 out our ranks and helping us out on a regular 00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:39.930 basis. But if we have our core orchestra and 00:02:39.930 --> 00:02:42.509 those people are there all the time and we play 00:02:42.509 --> 00:02:44.889 together, we play for each other, we know each 00:02:44.889 --> 00:02:48.449 other's playing so well, just out of sheer exposure 00:02:48.449 --> 00:02:50.909 that, yeah, there's a soloist who's a guest. 00:02:51.050 --> 00:02:53.449 Yeah, there's a conductor who's a guest. But 00:02:53.449 --> 00:02:56.710 most of those bodies on the stage, we get to 00:02:56.710 --> 00:02:59.030 build that culture for ourselves. Absolutely. 00:02:59.419 --> 00:03:02.379 it's so important to have that healthy work environment 00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:05.680 that comes from the musicians. And outside influences 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.900 can absolutely affect that, but it just feels, 00:03:09.419 --> 00:03:11.400 being here, I know, again, I've only been here 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:14.400 for a little longer than a year, but it already 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.719 feels like such a great place to make music and 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:21.240 to pursue that artistic excellence because there 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.599 is that freedom to try new things and to push 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:26.259 the boundary without feeling like people are 00:03:26.259 --> 00:03:30.110 going to penalize you for, moving a little too 00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:32.189 far outside of that boundary one time, you know 00:03:32.189 --> 00:03:34.270 what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, look, 00:03:34.349 --> 00:03:37.530 as Principal Horn, it's your job to take big 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:40.689 risks. Sure, and sometimes have big failures. 00:03:41.250 --> 00:03:42.870 Well, otherwise it's not a risk, right? That's 00:03:42.870 --> 00:03:46.689 right, it's true. I don't know if you have the 00:03:46.689 --> 00:03:49.169 same experience, but I always feel like I'm making 00:03:49.169 --> 00:03:52.169 the most compelling music when I'm working on 00:03:52.169 --> 00:03:54.990 the fringes of my capability. Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:55.490 --> 00:03:57.930 There's this great analogy that I tell my students 00:03:57.930 --> 00:04:01.460 a lot. It's from a scene in the third Christian 00:04:01.460 --> 00:04:04.740 Bale Batman movie, which I cannot recommend from 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:07.199 a cinematic point of view. But while watching 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.460 the movie, there was one scene that particularly 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:13.699 stuck out to me. Batman is Bane is terrorizing 00:04:13.699 --> 00:04:16.920 Gotham and Batman was in a hole and Batman has 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:18.720 to get out of the hole through this obstacle 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:22.019 course. And he's recovering and making his way 00:04:22.019 --> 00:04:23.600 through this obstacle course to get out of the 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:26.459 hole. And at the end of this, there's one big 00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:29.339 jump. and Batman has the safety rope on that 00:04:29.339 --> 00:04:31.120 prevents him from falling to his death every 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.899 time he misses a jump, just gently lowers him 00:04:33.899 --> 00:04:36.839 back down. And there's a montage of him trying 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:40.660 to make that jump with the rope on, and he can't 00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:42.500 make it. And at this point, he's fully physically 00:04:42.500 --> 00:04:44.500 recovered, so he's not sure what that impediment 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:47.420 is. And he realizes, when Gotham needs him the 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:50.259 most, that the thing that's holding him back 00:04:50.259 --> 00:04:52.980 is the safety rope. And he realizes that the 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:55.120 only way to make the jump is to take that rope 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.120 off. If he takes the rope off and he misses, 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:02.040 he'll fall to his death and Gotham will forever 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.980 be terrorized by this evil super villain. But 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:07.779 the only way that he can get out is to take that 00:05:07.779 --> 00:05:10.660 risk and to put his life on the line. Horn playing 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:13.279 is like that, but with no death involved, right? 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:16.899 So, I mean, I mean, never say never. That's right. 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.000 Exactly. Thus far, no death involved. So, you 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.189 know, you have to take that risk in order to 00:05:24.189 --> 00:05:26.649 achieve your best product. And you know that 00:05:26.649 --> 00:05:29.329 you might totally eat it in a concert. And I've 00:05:29.329 --> 00:05:32.050 definitely had concerts where I'm sure that that 00:05:32.050 --> 00:05:34.709 misnode is still ringing around some crevice 00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:37.769 of the auditorium. I've never had that experience. 00:05:38.850 --> 00:05:43.769 Lucky you. But yeah, I it's always that that 00:05:43.769 --> 00:05:46.889 risk taking thing of, you know, yeah, you can 00:05:46.889 --> 00:05:49.209 absolutely messed up. But the only way to achieve 00:05:49.209 --> 00:05:51.509 that really high level artistic excellence is 00:05:51.949 --> 00:05:54.810 is through that risk, through that danger. Yeah, 00:05:54.829 --> 00:05:56.610 absolutely. If you don't want to leave Batman 00:05:56.610 --> 00:05:58.810 in there, that's OK. No, that's great. You tell 00:05:58.810 --> 00:06:02.050 that you tell that story really well. Really, 00:06:02.170 --> 00:06:03.870 really well. I've told it to a lot of students. 00:06:04.269 --> 00:06:06.110 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really not a good movie. 00:06:06.269 --> 00:06:08.769 I would not recommend watching it. Well, you 00:06:08.769 --> 00:06:10.910 know, they can't all be hits. No. If you can 00:06:10.910 --> 00:06:12.850 find something great out of it, that's that's 00:06:12.850 --> 00:06:15.709 wonderful. I try for bad movies to take one thing 00:06:15.709 --> 00:06:18.509 that I can use in my daily life, you know. Yeah. 00:06:18.689 --> 00:06:21.699 Are you a big movie person? I love watching movies. 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.560 I try to watch every Oscar Best Picture nominee 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.699 every year and it lets me play along. I also 00:06:27.699 --> 00:06:31.399 find, you know, you look for parallels in everything, 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.620 right? And there's lots of parallels to art and 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:38.199 the way that film is and the trends in film and 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:40.279 the way directors create things and the way actors 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.060 create things within the director's supervision 00:06:43.060 --> 00:06:46.180 that correspond to music. I find that. really 00:06:46.180 --> 00:06:48.740 fascinating and like that's a great analogy for 00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:51.279 what we do right like yeah we're the people making 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:53.360 the sound yeah but we have to work with these 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.279 conductors who are up front leading the orchestra 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:57.199 and bringing their interpretation and their guidance 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.220 to what we're doing but we have to be the ones 00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:02.040 we're the actors who are taking this script that 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:05.319 the composer wrote yeah and taking the direction 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:09.279 of the conductor and actually doing the thing 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.620 oh totally totally and it's always fun to see 00:07:13.019 --> 00:07:15.839 performances and see what direction film is going. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.040 And even if I disagree, see what the Academy 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:23.860 is awarding, you know, like what, what the, I 00:07:23.860 --> 00:07:27.379 really think that, you know, this is maybe a 00:07:27.379 --> 00:07:32.639 tangent, but it's so cool for cinema to have 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:39.120 a like universally respected gathering. and recognition 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.079 of great artists and great performances and great 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.680 directing. And while the Grammys have that a 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:48.060 little bit, I feel like it's much more, it's 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:50.939 much more focused on the Oscars, you know, and 00:07:50.939 --> 00:07:53.579 you get to see so many of these individual actors' 00:07:54.060 --> 00:07:57.339 performances and like highlighting them, even 00:07:57.339 --> 00:07:59.699 if like sometimes the movie is not good, but 00:07:59.699 --> 00:08:02.279 they deliver a great performance in the movie. 00:08:02.339 --> 00:08:05.019 And that... you know, being able to recognize 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:08.040 that, being able to have consensus around that 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:10.339 and have people participate in that process. 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:13.560 And I find that that is really amazing. I wish 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.459 we had more of that culture of recognizing that 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:19.699 great achievement, you know, for individuals 00:08:19.699 --> 00:08:22.920 and for groups, you know, in the way that we, 00:08:23.939 --> 00:08:26.060 that the music culture is at large, you know? 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:27.779 Yeah, that's a really interesting point. And, 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:30.100 you know, there's not always real consensus that 00:08:30.100 --> 00:08:32.080 everyone decides this one's the best this year, 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:35.769 but I think that the discussion is the point, 00:08:35.990 --> 00:08:39.509 right? That idea of taking this art, listening 00:08:39.509 --> 00:08:42.669 to it or watching it, and then working through 00:08:42.669 --> 00:08:45.129 it, thinking about it, discussing it with others 00:08:45.129 --> 00:08:48.629 who might not agree with you about it. We have 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:51.809 these discussions backstage all the time. I mean, 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:54.490 right before I was setting up to record today, 00:08:54.889 --> 00:08:56.990 we were talking about which Brahms symphony is 00:08:56.990 --> 00:09:00.809 your favorite. Yeah. Exactly. And sidebar, which 00:09:00.809 --> 00:09:02.129 Brahms symphony is your favorite? It's Brahms 00:09:02.129 --> 00:09:04.350 Four, which we played earlier this season, actually. 00:09:04.350 --> 00:09:06.929 That's right. Yeah, and everything is so subjective. 00:09:07.450 --> 00:09:10.149 And I can love certain conductors' interpretations 00:09:10.149 --> 00:09:13.909 of Brahms Four. I can love the way that certain 00:09:13.909 --> 00:09:15.929 orchestras play that piece. And other people 00:09:15.929 --> 00:09:19.210 might not like that, but there is that discussion 00:09:19.210 --> 00:09:21.250 that we get to have about it. And everything 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:24.889 is so subjective, but there are big points that 00:09:24.889 --> 00:09:29.279 you can come together on. and really recognizing 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.399 great playing, even if it's not always your speed. 00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:34.340 You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Thinking 00:09:34.340 --> 00:09:40.139 about movies, you know, in 2019... Uh, 1917 and 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:42.559 Parasite were the two movies that were front 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:45.059 runners for Best Picture. And I saw both of them. 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:48.580 I loved 1917. I mean, it was such a powerful 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:51.960 movie for me. I remember like crying for 10 minutes 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:54.019 in the theater afterwards just because it was 00:09:54.019 --> 00:09:57.919 such a like emotionally impactful film. And I 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:00.480 really liked Parasite. And while it wasn't a 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:04.179 movie that was like more up my alley, it was 00:10:04.179 --> 00:10:07.159 really interesting and had a really creative 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.860 concept and a really neat screenplay and Parasite 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:13.200 ended up winning. And while I would have liked 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.799 to see 1917 win, I can acknowledge that like 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:18.840 Parasite is a movie that deserved to win best 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:23.139 picture. In a lot of ways. It was a really, really 00:10:23.139 --> 00:10:26.539 fantastic film and did a lot more progressive 00:10:26.539 --> 00:10:30.320 things for the art than a movie like 1917, you 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:32.480 know? And I think music can be like that, you 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.320 know? Something might not be my particular taste, 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.940 but I can recognize that the impact that it's 00:10:38.940 --> 00:10:41.080 having on the art form or the impact that that 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.080 group is having or the impact that that conductor 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.659 is having and recognize that that's really important. 00:10:45.779 --> 00:10:47.779 And even if I don't always love every decision 00:10:47.779 --> 00:10:51.279 that's being made, I can see the influence in 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.740 how that affects the community, you know? Totally. 00:10:53.899 --> 00:10:55.460 Yeah, it's almost like these things can sort 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:58.879 of move the Overton window on what, you know, 00:10:58.940 --> 00:11:00.940 what we think about and what we think music can 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:03.779 be, what we think cinema can be. It's very interesting, 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:05.659 you know? And, you know, listeners, one thing 00:11:05.659 --> 00:11:08.019 that you might be noticing is that many of the 00:11:08.019 --> 00:11:10.059 musicians in the orchestra are very opinionated 00:11:10.059 --> 00:11:12.940 or very interested in other art forms. And this 00:11:12.940 --> 00:11:16.740 is not, I believe, a coincidence. No, it's really 00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:19.279 fun to... I think observe an art form that you're 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.879 not an expert in and make assessments and make 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:27.679 judgments and have that opinion, that opinionated 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.700 quality about other things that you're less personally 00:11:30.700 --> 00:11:33.840 invested in. You know what I mean? And that's 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.000 why I love going to the movies. I love keeping 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.419 tabs on everything that's happening. But yeah, 00:11:40.419 --> 00:11:43.720 we are really opinionated. I think a lot of why 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.679 we're all here and why we all have... been successful 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:49.679 and enough to get these jobs is because we're 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:51.580 opinionated and because we feel really strongly 00:11:51.580 --> 00:11:53.480 about something. I think if you don't feel really 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.899 strongly about the thing that you're doing, then 00:11:55.899 --> 00:11:58.320 it's probably not worth doing, you know? Like 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.620 if you just kind of feel lukewarm on a lot of 00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:03.139 ideas, maybe you should be doing something else 00:12:03.139 --> 00:12:05.440 that kind of gets you more fired up, you know? 00:12:05.860 --> 00:12:08.000 Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, music is hard. 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:10.000 There are a lot of things that are really hard. 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:12.940 I mean, I tell my students, like I don't... I 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:14.639 don't discourage them, but I tell them, you know, 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:17.879 if you can see yourself being happy and being 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.000 fulfilled doing anything else, you should do 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.539 the other thing. You should, because you'll have 00:12:22.539 --> 00:12:25.740 more free time, you'll have more money probably, 00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:29.379 you'll have more time, a more flexible schedule, 00:12:29.500 --> 00:12:32.720 a more ideal schedule with, with how the world 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.440 works. You know, it, you'll, you'll be happy 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.980 if you can do the other thing and feel fulfilled. 00:12:38.059 --> 00:12:40.870 But if you can't do anything else. then you should 00:12:40.870 --> 00:12:47.409 do music. If you really need that artistic influence 00:12:47.409 --> 00:12:49.370 in your life, that's the thing that you have 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:53.750 to do. And so if you don't feel like this is 00:12:53.750 --> 00:12:56.789 the thing that I have to be doing, and I have 00:12:56.789 --> 00:12:59.870 strong opinions on what I have to say and what 00:12:59.870 --> 00:13:03.570 I can put out there, then yeah, I think that 00:13:03.570 --> 00:13:06.690 maybe... do something else, right? That inspires 00:13:06.690 --> 00:13:09.110 that in you, you know, that gives you that fulfillment 00:13:09.110 --> 00:13:11.490 where you feel like I have something unique to 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:13.230 say and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. 00:13:13.629 --> 00:13:15.389 Yeah, that's really interesting. You know, I 00:13:15.389 --> 00:13:17.990 was thinking about the way that we're opinionated. 00:13:18.110 --> 00:13:20.570 We musicians, everyone on stage has big opinions, 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:23.549 but in an orchestra, like we all have these opinions, 00:13:23.570 --> 00:13:26.649 but we're all on a team together, right? So it 00:13:26.649 --> 00:13:29.990 becomes a really interesting challenge. to figure 00:13:29.990 --> 00:13:32.750 out how do we square our own feelings about something 00:13:32.750 --> 00:13:35.450 with sort of the larger direction that the ensemble 00:13:35.450 --> 00:13:39.649 is pulling. And you as Principal Horn, you have 00:13:39.649 --> 00:13:43.210 to be a real chameleon in your job because you're 00:13:43.210 --> 00:13:45.669 one of the primary solo voices of the orchestra. 00:13:46.350 --> 00:13:48.909 You also play what's very often a supporting 00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:53.279 role, right? The horn plays a lot. Right. You 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.480 know, and in romantic repertoire, for example, 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:57.720 I mean, like, take, we play some Tchaikovsky 00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:59.799 earlier this season. We're playing some Tchaikovsky 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.120 coming up in February. Right. We're playing an 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:05.539 all -Tchaikovsky concert. Like, the horn is constantly 00:14:05.539 --> 00:14:08.120 playing, and sometimes it's long notes, sometimes 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:10.240 it's repeated notes. Sometimes you're playing, 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.120 you know, moving harmonies with things, but like, 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:16.500 you have to go from being this totally supportive... 00:14:16.009 --> 00:14:18.870 player, even in the principal chair, to then, 00:14:18.870 --> 00:14:20.889 you know, you turn the page and you have, you 00:14:20.889 --> 00:14:23.669 know, this glorious lyrical solo or something 00:14:23.669 --> 00:14:28.590 where you have to be very opinionated and have 00:14:28.590 --> 00:14:31.289 full conviction in your own musical vision of 00:14:31.289 --> 00:14:34.090 something. It must be very difficult to switch 00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:36.769 gears so quickly. Totally. And it's something 00:14:36.769 --> 00:14:40.419 that I think requires a lot of practice. I like 00:14:40.419 --> 00:14:43.360 to think of the horn as the liaison of the woodwinds 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.320 and brass, and there's a lot of times where we 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:46.860 would play with the winds and be that supporting 00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:48.940 voice. You know, the horn is in both wind quintet 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:52.279 and brass quintet, and playing in both gives 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.399 you a really different skill set. There's a great 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.399 quote from my teacher's teacher, Vern Reynolds, 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:00.019 and he said, you know, what's the first thing 00:15:00.019 --> 00:15:02.179 you do when you get a woodwind quintet gig? You 00:15:02.179 --> 00:15:06.039 find a brass quintet gig. And I think that there 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.240 is some truth to that in that you have to be 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.879 able to balance out those two skills as to be 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.799 a complete horn player. There's a lot of times 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:15.860 where you have to be able to put out a lot of 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:19.840 sound and not just keel over when the rest of 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.200 the brass is playing as well, but then fade into 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:24.879 the background and create that more transparent 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:26.519 color when you're playing with the winds and 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.440 then find your own voice. And there's a lot of 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.299 navigation to that. I find it really exciting. 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.919 We talked about Brahms earlier. One of the things 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:37.639 that I like the most about Brahms is that you 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.940 can really get into this flow of embodying these 00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:43.320 different colors and Brahms orchestrates in such 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.240 a great way that it allows that really smooth 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:48.899 transition where you can do all of those things 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:51.919 in a symphony. It doesn't feel as the changes 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:54.379 and transitions don't feel as sharp, you know? 00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:57.559 And I think it just takes a lot of practice to 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.720 do that. And, you know, I remember this quote, 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.860 from Principal Horn of a major orchestra. And 00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:08.519 he told me something, he's like, you know, when 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:14.000 I'm on stage, it's my job to lead. And it's not 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.519 an ego thing, but I'm being paid to have that 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.889 role. And if I don't do that, I'm delegating 00:16:22.889 --> 00:16:25.629 that responsibility to somebody else, to the 00:16:25.629 --> 00:16:28.090 rest of the section, to other people in the orchestra. 00:16:28.370 --> 00:16:30.490 And they're not being paid enough to do that. 00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:33.850 That's not their job. And it's unfair to make 00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:36.049 them do that. It's unfair to make them take on 00:16:36.049 --> 00:16:39.690 that responsibility. So I certainly don't think 00:16:39.690 --> 00:16:42.409 that I'm the best musician in the orchestra and 00:16:42.409 --> 00:16:44.590 that I have all the musical ideas and musical 00:16:44.590 --> 00:16:49.190 solutions, but I know that it's my job to lead 00:16:49.190 --> 00:16:53.950 and to be demonstrative. And of course, I'm receptive 00:16:53.950 --> 00:16:56.970 and supportive and work as a team with my colleagues' 00:16:57.230 --> 00:17:01.049 ideas, but I can't just be that supportive role 00:17:01.049 --> 00:17:05.289 because it's also my job to lead and to be that 00:17:05.289 --> 00:17:08.470 soloistic voice and to be present because I find 00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:10.269 that when I'm playing with somebody who's really 00:17:10.269 --> 00:17:13.109 leading in another section, it's way easier to 00:17:13.109 --> 00:17:17.029 do my job. And if I give up that responsibility, 00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:19.200 it just puts that burden on somebody else and 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:22.160 that's not fair, you know? So it's a really delicate 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.660 balance, but I think it's not so much an ego 00:17:25.660 --> 00:17:28.640 thing. It's not that I think I'm the best. I 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.660 definitely don't, but it's that sense of collaboration 00:17:31.660 --> 00:17:34.299 and knowing when it's your moment and that, you 00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:36.579 know, taking that leadership role or taking that 00:17:36.579 --> 00:17:38.180 supportive role and being a team player really 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:40.279 makes things easier for everybody. Totally. You 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:42.420 know, I'm in a similar sort of position where 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.609 I always think I have to show up with a flexible 00:17:45.609 --> 00:17:48.589 plan, you know, and be willing to change, be 00:17:48.589 --> 00:17:51.630 ready to take in other people's ideas and the 00:17:51.630 --> 00:17:54.690 conductor's ideas, and just listen to the sound 00:17:54.690 --> 00:17:56.670 in the hall and make adjustments based on that. 00:17:56.690 --> 00:17:59.309 But if I don't show up with an idea of how it's 00:17:59.309 --> 00:18:03.309 gonna go, like, we start our rehearsals so far 00:18:03.309 --> 00:18:06.349 behind. Yeah. Because, like, you can always change 00:18:06.349 --> 00:18:08.450 something. Some can say, ah, it's too loud, play 00:18:08.450 --> 00:18:10.410 it softer. Oh, this should be more lyrical, not 00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:14.000 quite as, as pointed, but... if you show up with 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.160 nothing, then, like, it's really hard to build 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.599 something. And it certainly takes more time, 00:18:19.619 --> 00:18:21.559 and that's usually time that we don't have. I 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:24.640 also find that I will think a lot of times of 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.079 attempting to convince my colleagues and convince 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:32.240 the conductor of my approach, you know? And I'm 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.180 gonna play this in a way that's so convincing 00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:37.910 and so compelling that... Whatever ideas the 00:18:37.910 --> 00:18:39.849 conductor might have had or whatever ideas my 00:18:39.849 --> 00:18:41.529 colleagues might have had they might be influenced 00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:43.730 by those I'm not saying that my way or the highway, 00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:46.609 you know, I'm open to changing but if I play 00:18:46.609 --> 00:18:51.009 it in such a good in such a convincing way that 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:53.390 Everybody knows what I'm doing. Everybody knows 00:18:53.390 --> 00:18:56.089 what I'm going for. They're more likely to latch 00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:59.900 on to that and I I won't have to make as many 00:18:59.900 --> 00:19:02.819 shifts because I was so convincing in the first 00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:04.799 place. Yeah. But at the same time, you might 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:06.799 think, I've got this one pinned and you show 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.019 up to work and you hear someone else make the 00:19:09.019 --> 00:19:11.359 same phrase in a different way. And you think, 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.960 Oh, yeah. Oh, how did I miss that idea? Happens 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:15.720 all the time. It happens all the time. I mean, 00:19:15.779 --> 00:19:18.380 that's, that's the joy of, you know, collaborating. 00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:20.619 Otherwise I'd just record principal horn parts 00:19:20.619 --> 00:19:23.559 in my room at home. Right. Exactly. Does it, 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:25.440 does it sound like a really musically fulfilling 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:29.960 career for me? Well, aside from your work on 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.160 stage at the CPO, you are also the editor, one 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.180 of the editors of The Horn Call. On the editorial 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:38.960 board. The newly formed editorial board of The 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.859 Horn Call, that's right. And The Horn Call is? 00:19:41.059 --> 00:19:44.660 The Horn Call is the International Horn Society's 00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:47.539 trade journal. I love The Horn Call. I mean, 00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:50.539 speaking of getting new ideas, you know, I'm 00:19:50.539 --> 00:19:51.940 not just saying this because I'm on the editorial 00:19:51.940 --> 00:19:54.930 board. I... always am able to find some inspiration 00:19:54.930 --> 00:19:57.589 in the horn call and find inspiration in the 00:19:57.589 --> 00:19:59.650 things that people are doing and the academic 00:19:59.650 --> 00:20:02.089 avenues that they're exploring and pursuing. 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:05.130 And, you know, they'll do the horn call those 00:20:05.130 --> 00:20:07.009 interviews with established professionals and 00:20:07.009 --> 00:20:09.710 then they'll feature student doctoral papers 00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:12.809 and they feature a lot of different things. And 00:20:12.809 --> 00:20:15.880 I always find that I can be inspired by. by those 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.000 articles and a lot of times incorporate them 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.980 into what I'm doing. I think sometimes musicians 00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:24.660 can be divided into two categories of performer 00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:28.299 and academic, and I really don't love to see 00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:31.720 that in the music community. I think there are 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.200 a lot of ways in which academic pursuits can 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.160 positively influence my performance and vice 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:41.519 versa. Being a performer as a teacher, helps 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.099 me put my ideas into practice on a daily basis. 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.660 I have to problem solve, and then I can take 00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:49.740 that into my students. And seeing the issues 00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:52.240 that practically affect me inform my academic 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.900 pursuits as well. And for me, that's what makes 00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:57.700 it really exciting, is that academic influence. 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.599 And we can see that in a lot of avenues. I mean, 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:04.480 I love, also on our season this year was Scheherazade. 00:21:04.939 --> 00:21:07.220 I love that piece. I love that piece because 00:21:07.220 --> 00:21:09.160 I think that when you listen to it through the 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.240 first time, you'll think, wow, that is a great 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.519 piece. And then if you look at the program notes 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:16.579 and you look at the programmatic elements and 00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:20.119 the way that Rimsky -Korsakov places these themes 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.960 and the changes that he makes to them as the 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.019 piece evolves, I mean, I think it's just masterful. 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:29.319 But it's a piece that stands the test of time. 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.920 in that if you don't know any of that, it still 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.339 sounds really great. But if you do know it, it 00:21:34.339 --> 00:21:36.920 just like, it blows my mind every time. There 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:38.640 are moments of that piece where I'm not playing 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.279 and I know like, I've looked at the score and 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:43.539 I know this one orchestrational detail and it's 00:21:43.539 --> 00:21:47.740 like, every time the strings switch their string 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:50.259 at the beginning of the third movement, I'm like, 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:53.759 that's amazing. It's just a thing that you listen 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.069 for in it. You know, we play the same piece all 00:21:56.069 --> 00:21:58.450 the time. We play the same pieces, you know, 00:21:58.450 --> 00:22:00.410 year after year and you have to keep them fresh. 00:22:00.569 --> 00:22:02.690 And so that's like one of the things that helps 00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:05.470 me do that is exploring that academic side, being 00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:07.930 able to do that analysis and see what other people 00:22:07.930 --> 00:22:10.049 are saying. So I know that was kind of a tangent 00:22:10.049 --> 00:22:11.990 from the horn call. No, no, no, that's great. 00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:14.529 That's great. You know, when we play the same 00:22:14.529 --> 00:22:16.930 music over and over, over the years, as part 00:22:16.930 --> 00:22:19.849 of our job, I find that it's a real bellwether 00:22:19.849 --> 00:22:21.990 of whether a piece is great or not, right? Because 00:22:21.990 --> 00:22:24.759 when you play Scheherazade for the... 20th time 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:27.500 in however many years, when you still go, oh, 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.460 this part, oh, I love this, ooh, oh, the colors, 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.359 the colors, you know, like, that's a great indication 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:36.059 that it's great music that's worth playing, right? 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.640 Absolutely. You know, a Brahms symphony, we're 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:39.099 talking about Brahms symphonies. Every time you 00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:42.240 play a Brahms symphony, you think, oh, oh, isn't 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.380 this just the most beautiful music, right? And 00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:46.319 you find new things in it, even if you've played 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.799 it over and over. And part of that's because 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.720 a colleague shows up with a new idea. about something 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.799 that you've never heard before, you know? And 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:57.240 the great music allows that to be a part of what 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:59.079 we're making in the room there. Yeah, there's 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:01.359 so much on the page, but then there's so much 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:03.599 that's really subjective. You know, there's always 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:05.480 so much detail on the page and if you just do 00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:08.259 what's on the page, you'll be pretty close. You 00:23:08.259 --> 00:23:10.299 know, but then there's actually a lot of wiggle 00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:13.680 room in there, you know, that leaves room for... 00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:16.690 improvisation and not in the jazz sense. I can't 00:23:16.690 --> 00:23:19.490 just make up the notes. Sometimes I wish I could, 00:23:19.549 --> 00:23:22.470 but I can't do that, you know. But there's so 00:23:22.470 --> 00:23:24.829 much room for, oh, should I move this phrase 00:23:24.829 --> 00:23:27.450 to here or should I move it here? You know, what's 00:23:27.450 --> 00:23:30.069 everybody else doing? How do I feel like I can 00:23:30.069 --> 00:23:32.470 influence that in a way that's not disruptive, 00:23:32.630 --> 00:23:34.910 you know? Yeah. I always tell my students that 00:23:34.910 --> 00:23:38.309 like the music, quote unquote, music on the page, 00:23:38.849 --> 00:23:41.710 that's not a comprehensive, sacred document, 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:46.480 right? That is the composer's best attempt at 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.900 writing down this idea of what they want it to 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:53.319 sound like. And some composers are extremely 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:55.940 meticulous with their markings and there's so 00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:57.940 much information on the page. Some composers 00:23:57.940 --> 00:23:59.559 there's very little information on the page. 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.500 But I think regardless, it can never capture 00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:07.519 the wholeness of the idea that the composer has 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.759 in their head. And sometimes, especially if the 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:12.880 music isn't quite as great as, say, a Brahms 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.940 symphony or Scheherazade, a great performance 00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:19.880 depends on a musician's interpretation bringing 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.279 it to life. And that's going to be different 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:24.119 depending on who's performing it. And that's 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:26.319 one of the joys of it. Like, you play a Mozart 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.440 horn concerto or Haydn trumpet concerto, right? 00:24:28.460 --> 00:24:31.349 There's very little on the page. Because the 00:24:31.349 --> 00:24:33.210 composer just didn't write much, right? Because 00:24:33.210 --> 00:24:35.630 that was how they did it back then. And that's 00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:37.509 a huge opportunity for us, right? Because we 00:24:37.509 --> 00:24:39.970 get to make a ton of decisions. We're not fenced 00:24:39.970 --> 00:24:43.509 into certain phrase shapes or certain note lengths. 00:24:43.970 --> 00:24:46.329 Right. Yeah, absolutely. And there are a lot 00:24:46.329 --> 00:24:48.170 of things that can inform your performance. You 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:50.849 know, if you approach it from a historical perspective, 00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:53.130 like there are a lot of... clues about note lengths 00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:55.430 or dynamic markings or, you know, looking at 00:24:55.430 --> 00:24:56.829 the natural horn, the way that they would have 00:24:56.829 --> 00:24:58.049 played it, what notes would have been covered, 00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:00.630 what notes would have been open, right? Can you 00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:03.049 explain that a little bit for a lay person? Yeah. 00:25:03.089 --> 00:25:04.690 Because you play a bit of natural horn. I do. 00:25:04.690 --> 00:25:06.950 As well. I taught a semester of natural horn 00:25:06.950 --> 00:25:10.509 at the Eastman School of Music. So originally, 00:25:11.170 --> 00:25:13.910 the horn was primarily a hunting instrument with 00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:17.579 one fixed length of tubing. Originally, the horn 00:25:17.579 --> 00:25:19.420 was kind of limited in the number of notes that 00:25:19.420 --> 00:25:22.099 it could play in a certain tone color. And you 00:25:22.099 --> 00:25:25.039 would use your hand to correct the pitch and 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:28.059 to cover notes in order to achieve that full, 00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:30.559 the full spectrum of all of the notes. And so 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.539 each note would have a slightly different tone 00:25:32.539 --> 00:25:34.680 color. The way that the modern horn is designed, 00:25:34.700 --> 00:25:37.500 you can play every note with roughly the same 00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.359 tone color and the same sound. But a lot of times 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:43.279 those covered notes can give you hints about 00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:45.470 where the phrase is going or what note would 00:25:45.470 --> 00:25:47.710 be that tension point because that note would 00:25:47.710 --> 00:25:49.950 have been covered and it's a slightly more abrasive 00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:52.869 sound. And when you say covered, you mean that 00:25:52.869 --> 00:25:55.529 the horn player would use their right hand in 00:25:55.529 --> 00:25:57.450 the bell and they would change. I mean, your 00:25:57.450 --> 00:25:58.769 right hand is always in the bell when you're 00:25:58.769 --> 00:26:01.450 playing the horn, which is a whole other. That's 00:26:01.450 --> 00:26:04.410 why the right hand is in the bell. I get that's 00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:06.069 the most frequently asked question is why is 00:26:06.069 --> 00:26:07.470 the right hand in the bell? Originally, your 00:26:07.470 --> 00:26:09.670 right hand was doing a lot to change the pitch. 00:26:09.910 --> 00:26:12.589 You would actually close. the heel of your hand 00:26:12.589 --> 00:26:15.910 across the bell, and that changes the frequency 00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:18.470 of the note, it also changes the color, but it 00:26:18.470 --> 00:26:21.109 was the only way to achieve those notes. So if 00:26:21.109 --> 00:26:23.509 you wanted to be able to play a scale, for instance, 00:26:23.609 --> 00:26:25.329 you'd have to close and open your hand a bunch 00:26:25.329 --> 00:26:28.490 of times. Whereas now I can play a scale just 00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:31.849 by changing my valves, which is great. It allows 00:26:31.849 --> 00:26:34.269 for a more even tone color, but there is a little 00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:37.690 bit of that charm that's lost. And so when we 00:26:37.690 --> 00:26:40.210 look at something like a Mozart horn concerto, 00:26:40.639 --> 00:26:42.480 there are notes that would have been covered, 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:45.200 that would have had that slightly more abrasive 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.660 sound, and then you get to resolve to an open 00:26:47.660 --> 00:26:49.720 note. And so if I'm playing that on the modern 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.279 horn, I'm not going to cover those notes, but 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:53.900 I'm going to think about, well, that note would 00:26:53.900 --> 00:26:57.900 have been covered. So if I think about kind of 00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:00.660 trying to emulate that tension and release, I'm 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:02.900 going to be a little more, I have a little more 00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:04.940 insight into what Mozart was thinking when he 00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:06.440 wrote that, because that's the instrument that 00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:10.079 he wrote it for, that natural horn color. with 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:11.500 the horn player with their right hand in the 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:14.079 bell to get all the notes is that why when valves 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.279 were added the the horn unlike every other instrument 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.420 is doing the valves with your left hand yes yes 00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:22.660 absolutely that's why and now the right hand 00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:24.859 has become a little more dormant i still will 00:27:24.859 --> 00:27:26.559 use the right hand to kind of slightly correct 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:28.539 pitch the way that a trombone player might slightly 00:27:28.539 --> 00:27:30.819 adjust their slide position based on intonation 00:27:31.399 --> 00:27:33.480 And you can still change color. We can do stop 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.640 torn, which is a color that a lot of modern composers 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.900 will feature. I can still do that with my hand, 00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:40.299 but the right hand has become a more passive 00:27:40.299 --> 00:27:42.579 hand compared to the left hand where I do all 00:27:42.579 --> 00:27:45.319 of my fingering work. But yeah, that's originally 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:47.900 why is the right hand was the dominant hand for 00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:49.920 horn playing. And then as the instrument evolved, 00:27:50.980 --> 00:27:53.059 it became necessity that it was the left hand, 00:27:53.059 --> 00:27:56.039 you know? As we were setting up to record today, 00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:57.779 you were telling me about a book that you were 00:27:57.779 --> 00:28:00.440 reading. Yes. And you were very excited about 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:02.619 this. And I said, no, no, Nikki, hold that thought. 00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:05.960 I've been holding it. OK, OK. Now it's time. 00:28:06.259 --> 00:28:08.819 I was talking with somebody recently about a 00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:13.759 really influential moment in my collegiate career 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.240 and where I feel like I had a really big breakthrough. 00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:22.119 And that moment for me came after I read this 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.759 book. Called bounce. It's by Matthew Syed. It's 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:29.160 not about music. It's about sports really but 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.519 it's the thesis of the book is that talent is 00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:36.660 a myth and Any instance you could come up with 00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:40.099 for talent, you know child prodigies all of those 00:28:40.099 --> 00:28:43.539 things can be debunked not only is telling a 00:28:43.539 --> 00:28:48.099 myth but the belief in talent can actually be 00:28:48.099 --> 00:28:54.309 detrimental to a performer to a student of anything. 00:28:54.470 --> 00:28:57.930 Let me explain a little bit. So instead of talent, 00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:01.789 Matthew Syed lists three things that actually 00:29:01.789 --> 00:29:05.470 make a great performer. And those are practice, 00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:09.730 exposure to expert coaching, and exposure to 00:29:09.730 --> 00:29:13.430 opportunity. And when we think of a child prodigy, 00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:16.609 that person just had access to all three of those 00:29:16.609 --> 00:29:19.539 things sooner than almost everybody else. So 00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:21.900 if we think of an example like Mozart, people 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:23.799 will say, well, Mozart was composing symphonies 00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:28.940 at age 16, and he totally was. But Mozart had 00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:31.920 been composing since the age of four, studying 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:35.700 with his father, Leopold Mozart, who was probably 00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:37.819 the best teacher that anybody could get at that 00:29:37.819 --> 00:29:41.240 time, and had a lot of access to opportunity 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.059 because of his father's connections to the music 00:29:44.059 --> 00:29:47.880 world. So Mozart is just doing what most composers 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:52.329 are doing. but from a much earlier age. And for 00:29:52.329 --> 00:29:56.190 me, that really made a difference in my studies 00:29:56.190 --> 00:29:59.369 because I don't think I was ever like the most 00:29:59.369 --> 00:30:02.750 naturally gifted at horn. I didn't pick it up 00:30:02.750 --> 00:30:07.009 super fast. And I think sometimes when students 00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:09.130 hear a great performer or a great performance, 00:30:09.569 --> 00:30:11.170 they'll think, man, I don't know how I'm ever 00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:14.289 gonna get there. And it can be really demoralizing, 00:30:14.430 --> 00:30:18.069 honestly, when you're great music -making. For 00:30:18.069 --> 00:30:20.529 me, knowing that it was those three elements, 00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.849 hard work, access to expert coaching, opportunity, 00:30:24.730 --> 00:30:28.130 that made it feel way more achievable. The only 00:30:28.130 --> 00:30:30.970 thing standing between me and that horn player 00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:34.029 I really admire and really look up to is those 00:30:34.029 --> 00:30:37.009 three things. And I can control hard work and 00:30:37.009 --> 00:30:39.269 I can make sure I find access to expert coaching. 00:30:39.430 --> 00:30:41.809 And if I do both of those things, opportunities 00:30:41.809 --> 00:30:45.089 will come and I'll be ready for them. And if 00:30:45.089 --> 00:30:48.279 you believe in that talent, that thing that you 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.579 have something that's outside of your control, 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:54.920 it can really disempower you. And you feel like 00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:58.160 you're almost the victim of whatever circumstance, 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:00.279 like, I'll never be that good. That person is 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:02.700 just talented. They have something that I don't. 00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.240 And in reality, they don't have that. And so 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.640 for me, reading that book and having that realization 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.240 and applying it to music really motivated me 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.519 because I knew that I could get wherever I wanted 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.509 to. just with those three things, two of which 00:31:18.509 --> 00:31:24.390 I can really directly influence. It felt like 00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:27.029 a much more empowering thing. It felt like it 00:31:27.029 --> 00:31:29.930 put me more on the offensive instead of comparing 00:31:29.930 --> 00:31:32.490 myself to others and, well, I'm not there yet, 00:31:32.730 --> 00:31:34.769 and well, such and such got a job when they were 00:31:34.769 --> 00:31:40.240 this year old. it really allowed me to be like, 00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:42.200 well, they probably had access to those things 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:44.539 sooner than I did. And that's okay. You know, 00:31:44.539 --> 00:31:47.660 it's not a race, but it allowed me to be more 00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:49.960 forward and forward thinking in my mindset. Like, 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:51.859 well, I can get there, you know, even if I'm 00:31:51.859 --> 00:31:54.180 out there now, I can get there, you know? That's 00:31:54.180 --> 00:31:55.920 really interesting. Yeah. And that's a, that 00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:58.960 sort of three pronged way of thinking about it 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.680 is new to me. That's very interesting for me. 00:32:01.779 --> 00:32:04.769 When, whenever people talk about talent, I love 00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:07.529 to just ask them what they mean. What do you 00:32:07.529 --> 00:32:10.990 mean when you say talent? And that devolves into 00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:13.690 confusion very quickly because it feels like 00:32:13.690 --> 00:32:15.930 this concept that, you know, everyone intuitively 00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:19.329 knows what talent is. But really, do they? Is 00:32:19.329 --> 00:32:23.289 it a predisposition towards something mentally, 00:32:23.549 --> 00:32:27.089 physically? Is it a ceiling of maximum achievement 00:32:27.089 --> 00:32:30.769 that's inherently possible for that person? Is 00:32:30.769 --> 00:32:34.450 it? You know, like, what is it? I haven't found 00:32:34.450 --> 00:32:36.970 a good definition of what it means. So, I don't 00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:39.130 know, throwing the whole concept out entirely 00:32:39.130 --> 00:32:42.450 feels interesting, worth thinking about. Yeah, 00:32:42.589 --> 00:32:45.589 I never use that word with my students. I never 00:32:45.589 --> 00:32:48.390 use talent. Because, you know, in that book, 00:32:48.569 --> 00:32:51.329 there are several studies where they had students 00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:54.869 solve a math, like take a math test. And after 00:32:54.869 --> 00:32:57.019 the test... They told a group of students like, 00:32:57.019 --> 00:32:58.539 wow, you must have worked really hard on this. 00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:00.799 You did such a great job. I know you put in a 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:02.779 lot of effort and that's what really paid off. 00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:04.619 And then they told the other group of students, 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:06.240 wow, you're really good at this. You must be 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.519 really naturally talented. And the students that 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.440 they told were naturally talented, they actually 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.900 did worse on future tests. And the students that 00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:15.960 they told, hey, you must have worked really hard. 00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:19.220 They did better because it's that sense of like, 00:33:19.309 --> 00:33:21.170 I worked really hard and that's why I got it. 00:33:21.450 --> 00:33:23.049 And when those students that were told they were 00:33:23.049 --> 00:33:25.369 talented were faced with a challenging problem, 00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:27.789 they were like, well, if I don't get it now, 00:33:27.809 --> 00:33:29.369 I'm never going to get it because I guess I'm 00:33:29.369 --> 00:33:32.130 just not that talented. You know, it became this 00:33:32.130 --> 00:33:34.170 thing where like either you have it or you don't. 00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:37.789 And so I'll never tell my students that they're 00:33:37.789 --> 00:33:40.410 talented, you know, and not that anybody like 00:33:40.410 --> 00:33:42.109 if somebody tells me I'm talented, I'm going 00:33:42.109 --> 00:33:43.609 to take it as a compliment. I'm not going to 00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:47.509 say, well, actually. Read this book. Right. I 00:33:47.509 --> 00:33:49.769 just have copies of it. I'm the number one book 00:33:49.769 --> 00:33:53.589 salesman for Bounce. I'll always take it as a 00:33:53.589 --> 00:33:55.809 compliment because I know that that's how they're 00:33:55.809 --> 00:33:59.670 intending it to be, but I won't say any of that 00:33:59.670 --> 00:34:02.710 to my students or tell it to myself because I 00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:07.049 find that it can be really undermining actually 00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:09.960 to the goals that you want to achieve. Yeah, 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.420 you were saying that bounce is a book that's 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:15.019 largely framed around sports and Nikki I've worked 00:34:15.019 --> 00:34:17.119 with you long enough that I know you were an 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.199 avid sports fan. I am an avid sports fan I I 00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:23.119 know that I follow different sports than you 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:26.460 do So, please tell us about your teams. Well 00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:31.019 My primary team for better or for worse is the 00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:34.239 Miami Dolphins the NFL team I love them very 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:36.480 dearly. I was born into the fan base and it's 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:38.719 a burden that I can never shake off. They've 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:41.519 been bad pretty much my whole life. This is our 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.440 year, though, I'm convinced. And now if you had 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:45.800 asked me that last year, I probably would have 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.320 said the same thing. But now I really mean it. 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:50.940 And now for the audience, we are recording this 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.280 a little bit ways ahead of when it's airing. 00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:57.739 So maybe Nikki's statement will sound very silly. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.500 They're currently doing pretty bad, but I'm hopeful 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:04.489 that the season will turn around for us. Ever 00:35:04.489 --> 00:35:07.050 the optimist. I mean, I really like sports, you 00:35:07.050 --> 00:35:09.469 know, similar to what we were talking about with 00:35:09.469 --> 00:35:13.550 other art forms. I see a lot of overlap in sports 00:35:13.550 --> 00:35:17.130 and in sports psychology and how athletes perform. 00:35:17.510 --> 00:35:19.530 I've talked with a sports psychologist about 00:35:19.530 --> 00:35:21.809 my performing a little bit. Yeah. I mean, it's 00:35:21.809 --> 00:35:25.269 really It's really, really interesting. And the 00:35:25.269 --> 00:35:28.010 narratives that are behind that, behind sports 00:35:28.010 --> 00:35:29.630 performance and everything, you know, I just 00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:32.369 watched this past summer was the Olympics and 00:35:32.369 --> 00:35:34.670 I love the Olympics. I watched them like 24 hours 00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:37.710 a day. Love it. And there are so many narratives 00:35:37.710 --> 00:35:41.869 and there are so many stories that are behind 00:35:41.869 --> 00:35:45.329 each of those performances. And you can see, 00:35:45.489 --> 00:35:48.789 you know, you're self -reflected in that as a 00:35:48.789 --> 00:35:51.130 performing musician. Now I'm not like running 00:35:51.130 --> 00:35:54.960 a marathon, but There are aspects of that that 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.699 I see in my own playing. And one of the things, 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.699 getting back to the Miami Dolphins, one of the 00:36:01.699 --> 00:36:04.860 things that I really like about that is the influence 00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:07.820 of their coach. His name is Mike McDaniel. As 00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:09.639 of the filming of this episode, his name is Mike 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:14.099 McDaniel. And one of the things that I really 00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:16.639 love about Mike McDaniel is the quarterback of 00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:18.980 the Dolphins was really struggling. Mike McDaniel 00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:22.880 comes in and he makes him... puts together a 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.260 700 play tape of all of this guy's best plays. 00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:30.239 700 plays where he was like, you look great in 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:32.599 this play. You're doing all the right things. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.800 You deserve to be here. You are the caliber to 00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:37.719 play in this league. You do not need to have 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:39.460 any doubts about your playing because I've put 00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:43.579 together 700 plays where you are doing that and 00:36:43.579 --> 00:36:46.699 you are doing all the right things. And the next 00:36:46.699 --> 00:36:48.849 season after he did that, That quarterback had 00:36:48.849 --> 00:36:51.690 an awesome season. He led the league in passing 00:36:51.690 --> 00:36:54.489 yards because of that influence of that coach 00:36:54.489 --> 00:36:57.429 and that positive mindset and believing in that 00:36:57.429 --> 00:37:00.570 player and not waiting, you know, similar to 00:37:00.570 --> 00:37:02.210 what we were talking about at the beginning of 00:37:02.210 --> 00:37:05.329 this episode, rooting for him, wanting him to 00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:08.869 do well, empowering him to take risks and not 00:37:08.869 --> 00:37:10.610 waiting for him to mess up so he could replace 00:37:10.610 --> 00:37:12.670 him with someone else. You know, giving him that 00:37:12.670 --> 00:37:16.050 vote of confidence right off the bat. that really 00:37:16.050 --> 00:37:18.630 empowered him to have a fantastic season, you 00:37:18.630 --> 00:37:20.190 know? That's amazing. It's wonderful. It's cool. 00:37:20.309 --> 00:37:22.590 And I love those narratives. And, you know, I 00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:24.070 know sometimes like people are like, ah, I'm 00:37:24.070 --> 00:37:25.969 not really into sports and that's okay. I don't 00:37:25.969 --> 00:37:28.530 fault them for it, but I see those narratives 00:37:28.530 --> 00:37:31.090 in sports and it like really motivates me, you 00:37:31.090 --> 00:37:34.070 know? And I don't have a coach if anybody would 00:37:34.070 --> 00:37:35.829 like to apply, I'm accepting applications, right? 00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:40.730 But I don't have a coach, but I see myself as 00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:43.760 being that own... role for myself. You know, 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.539 we spend so much time in the practice room on 00:37:45.539 --> 00:37:48.420 our own. We have to be our own coaches and how 00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:51.699 I can apply that to me, like how I can find the 00:37:51.699 --> 00:37:54.219 good things in my playing and bring those to 00:37:54.219 --> 00:37:56.400 my attention instead of that tendency to just 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.739 focus on the bad things, focus on that one time 00:37:58.739 --> 00:38:00.940 I messed up, you know? Yeah. You know, we spend 00:38:00.940 --> 00:38:02.860 all of our training, you know, preparing for 00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:05.519 lessons every week and, you know, getting relentless 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.559 criticism from all around us to get better and 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:09.880 better and better. And then we become professionals 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:12.639 and that sort of goes away. Yeah. Right. Well, 00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:14.679 lucky us. We're surrounded by great musicians. 00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:16.960 Like today, before we recorded this podcast, 00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:19.519 I, you know, I said, Nikki, can I just play for 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.340 you for half an hour and get some feedback before 00:38:22.340 --> 00:38:24.380 before we press record on this? And we did. It 00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:27.199 was great. Yeah. And thank you for your input. 00:38:27.579 --> 00:38:29.800 It's totally like. a pleasure to do that because 00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:31.980 I know that that relationship goes both ways. 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:33.880 Totally. And there's that feedback that you can 00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:35.699 get from that outside party that, yeah, makes 00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:37.760 everybody better because we're all kind of working 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.820 together. Yeah, exactly. So with that in mind, 00:38:41.420 --> 00:38:42.559 you know, we're surrounded by all these great 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.059 musicians every week, you know, every day we're 00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:47.119 at the office. Who's someone in the orchestra 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:50.940 who's playing you admire? Oh, wow. I mean, there's 00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:57.699 so many. There are so many. I. Hmm. I'll stick 00:38:57.699 --> 00:38:59.760 to the horn section and I'll say that the person 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.440 who's playing I admire a lot is Max, who plays 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.360 third horn. Now, I'm a little biased because 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:06.860 Max and I actually went to high school together, 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.500 but Max is an excellent third horn player. He 00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:16.619 is really, really fantastic at all of the demands 00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:20.239 of the job. Third horn is a really tough role. 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.739 Each member of the horn section has a slightly 00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:26.260 different skill set, a slightly different specialty. 00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.579 my dad is not really into music, and so I describe 00:39:29.579 --> 00:39:32.619 it to him as like a member of a football team, 00:39:32.820 --> 00:39:35.739 right? Everybody's an athlete, everybody is physically 00:39:35.739 --> 00:39:39.420 fit, but everybody does something slightly different. 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:42.840 And the things that Max does at Third Horn, he's 00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:46.340 so solid and he's so reliable, but he can also 00:39:46.340 --> 00:39:49.619 have that solo voice when he needs to. He is 00:39:49.619 --> 00:39:53.460 so flexible in his approach and... is constantly 00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:56.219 matching other people, matching me, matching 00:39:56.219 --> 00:39:58.519 other members of the section, and then taking 00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:00.639 that leadership role because of the way that 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:04.099 the horn parts are written. And I am totally 00:40:04.099 --> 00:40:08.119 in admiration of what he's able to do. It's all 00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.619 a different skill set. And I know that I could 00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:14.579 not do it as well as he's doing it. And yeah, 00:40:14.579 --> 00:40:16.739 I really admire his playing. It's a total pleasure 00:40:16.739 --> 00:40:19.860 to have him. in the section, again, I feel so 00:40:19.860 --> 00:40:22.739 supported by everybody, but it's been an absolute 00:40:22.739 --> 00:40:25.920 joy to sit in front of him and hear just the 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.300 finesse and the polish and the delicate nature 00:40:29.300 --> 00:40:31.619 with which he approaches a lot of things that 00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:36.179 is just so sublime. It's often an underrated 00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:38.619 skill. I don't think a lot of people in the audience 00:40:38.619 --> 00:40:42.420 might pick up on it as much, but it is just like 00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:45.489 expert level. Third horn playing. Yeah. Fantastic. 00:40:45.590 --> 00:40:48.110 Max is always a treat to hear and a great colleague 00:40:48.110 --> 00:40:50.769 to work with. Oh, for sure. For sure. He definitely 00:40:50.769 --> 00:40:53.610 brings a lot of positive energy to the horse 00:40:53.610 --> 00:40:56.550 section. And we love it. We love it. Excellent. 00:40:56.750 --> 00:40:59.190 Well, Nikki, thank you so much for sitting down 00:40:59.190 --> 00:41:01.050 with me today. This was a real treat. No problem. 00:41:01.170 --> 00:41:05.050 Thank you so much for having me. Notes from the 00:41:05.050 --> 00:41:06.929 stage is an independent production of the Calgary 00:41:06.929 --> 00:41:09.389 Philharmonic Players Association. The opinions 00:41:09.389 --> 00:41:11.389 expressed here are our own and do not reflect 00:41:11.389 --> 00:41:13.230 those of the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra. 00:41:14.010 --> 00:41:15.750 Our thanks to Nathan Chandler for his technical 00:41:15.750 --> 00:41:18.489 expertise. The music you heard on this episode 00:41:18.489 --> 00:41:21.329 was Enchanted Forest by Karen Tanaka, performed 00:41:21.329 --> 00:41:23.769 by Nikki Labonte and pianist Priscilla Ewan. 00:41:25.090 --> 00:41:27.190 On our next episode in two weeks, I'll be talking 00:41:27.190 --> 00:41:30.210 with violinist Jongga Choi. Talk to you soon!