WEBVTT 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:06.259 All right. Hello, everybody. Sandell podcast 00:00:06.259 --> 00:00:11.759 number 63. Today, I have a very, very, very special 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:16.440 guest, Cyril Forte, who is the Sandbox DAO administrator. 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.500 And today we'll be talking, it's mostly a meet 00:00:20.500 --> 00:00:23.140 and greet, as if you probably didn't know who 00:00:23.140 --> 00:00:26.039 he was already. But if you've been in the DAO, 00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:28.760 you know who Cyril is. And also a learning opportunity, 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.719 time for us to learn and just have a conversation. 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:37.939 with our DAO admin. Disclaimer is... Actually, 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:40.280 this one might change a little bit. I, Lancer, 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:42.539 do not represent the Sandbox game or the Sandbox 00:00:42.539 --> 00:00:46.020 Foundation. Cyril, however, does represent the 00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:48.359 Sandbox... Not the Sandbox Foundation, but the 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:51.579 DAO, right? Represent the DAO. Yeah, my company 00:00:51.579 --> 00:00:55.320 works for the DAO. We can say that. Okay. And 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:58.380 we are... No matter what our association is, 00:00:58.460 --> 00:01:01.299 neither of us are not your financial or legal 00:01:01.299 --> 00:01:04.370 advisors, and nothing we say is... taken as either 00:01:04.370 --> 00:01:06.790 financial or legal advice. True for me, Cyril. 00:01:06.829 --> 00:01:10.209 True for you as well? Yeah. When we say the word 00:01:10.209 --> 00:01:12.989 SIP, we mean Sandbox Improvement Proposal. When 00:01:12.989 --> 00:01:15.030 we say the word DAO, we mean Decentralized Autonomous 00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:18.030 Organization. And when we say the word SanFam, 00:01:18.090 --> 00:01:20.489 we mean the Sandbox community, those who participate 00:01:20.489 --> 00:01:23.370 in the people, product, and purpose of the Sandbox 00:01:23.370 --> 00:01:26.689 ecosystem. That ecosystem looks a little bit 00:01:26.689 --> 00:01:28.469 like this, where in the people you have everything 00:01:28.469 --> 00:01:31.000 from the gamers to the Sandbox team. The product 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.700 is everything from the game client to the DAO. 00:01:32.859 --> 00:01:35.379 And the purpose is what the white paper expound 00:01:35.379 --> 00:01:39.760 upon originally, as discussed many times everywhere 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:43.719 by Sebastian, Bourget, Arthur Madrid. And that 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:46.040 ecosystem helps us go round and round each day. 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:51.879 And today's episode is squarely on the DAO. As 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:54.599 I said, my name is Lancer. I am the host. We're 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:57.980 63 episodes into this thing. And today we'll 00:01:57.980 --> 00:02:02.930 be talking about... the TSB DAO with Cyril. Cyril, 00:02:02.950 --> 00:02:04.209 if you wouldn't mind, please introduce yourself. 00:02:04.909 --> 00:02:07.230 What's up, Lenzer? Thank you for having me. Thank 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:10.169 you. Yeah, I'm Cyril Forte. I'm the founder of 00:02:10.169 --> 00:02:13.370 Arsaccio, which is the administrator of the Sandbox 00:02:13.370 --> 00:02:16.449 DAO. And happy to be here today to, you know, 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:19.750 I've been with the Sandbox DAO since its inception 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:23.150 as an admin since the 29th of May last year. 00:02:23.250 --> 00:02:26.750 So we're getting closer to... Anniversary, I 00:02:26.750 --> 00:02:28.849 guess we should celebrate. Very close. Yeah, 00:02:28.870 --> 00:02:31.949 we should celebrate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you 00:02:31.949 --> 00:02:35.569 pronounce your name one more time? Cyril. If 00:02:35.569 --> 00:02:37.750 you want to say it right. But you can say Cyril. 00:02:37.789 --> 00:02:40.289 I'm used to it. So I haven't mispronounced it 00:02:40.289 --> 00:02:44.509 this whole time. No, you and like 10 ,000 other 00:02:44.509 --> 00:02:47.189 people. So don't feel bad about it. I'm used 00:02:47.189 --> 00:02:50.030 to it. And you are... When I was younger, I used 00:02:50.030 --> 00:02:52.710 to be called Cedric. So, you know, by French 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:55.949 people, I mean, so, you know. Gotcha. And your 00:02:55.949 --> 00:02:58.490 last name is Forte? Forte. Yeah, it's Italian. 00:02:58.849 --> 00:03:03.870 Gotcha. And you own the company Arsaccio or is 00:03:03.870 --> 00:03:08.169 it Arsac? Arsaccio. Arsaccio, which is the company... 00:03:08.169 --> 00:03:10.229 Arsac .io, but Arsaccio is the company name. 00:03:10.449 --> 00:03:13.509 Which is the company that is like the DAO admin 00:03:13.509 --> 00:03:19.310 team. Correct. All right. So the discussion. 00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:22.550 Today's kind of like a lighthearted discussion. 00:03:23.370 --> 00:03:25.509 A lot of the DAO has been, we've been DAOing 00:03:25.509 --> 00:03:29.189 since May, and we've been DAOing hard, to say 00:03:29.189 --> 00:03:33.270 the least. And as obvious, this episode, this 00:03:33.270 --> 00:03:35.789 podcast just by itself is dedicated to Sandbox, 00:03:35.930 --> 00:03:38.789 and we've done 63 of these things. So we've DAOed 00:03:38.789 --> 00:03:41.610 a lot. This is really like, I would call it the 00:03:41.610 --> 00:03:45.050 capstone, a discussion between Cyril and I just 00:03:45.050 --> 00:03:50.550 to really talk it through and get an understanding. 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:53.800 Just the fact that we've been able to hear, Cyril, 00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:59.379 the thought process that you went through and 00:03:59.379 --> 00:04:02.039 digging in the sand, I think was like, for me, 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:04.500 it was a watershed moment. I absolutely loved 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:07.460 it and enjoyed that. And when you started giving 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:10.759 like little anecdotes in the story times, in 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:12.960 the forums, I loved every second of it because 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.919 it helped me see and I started to see what was 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:20.300 going on. Especially the term progressive decentralization. 00:04:20.949 --> 00:04:25.189 I heard that when you did NFC Lisbon, was it, 00:04:25.209 --> 00:04:27.990 in May? When we announced it, yeah. Right, when 00:04:27.990 --> 00:04:29.970 you announced it and you were with Seb and you 00:04:29.970 --> 00:04:32.810 explained it. And at the time, I got all offended. 00:04:33.069 --> 00:04:35.569 I was like, progressive decentralization? This 00:04:35.569 --> 00:04:38.529 is a DAO. It's already decentralized. And then 00:04:38.529 --> 00:04:41.529 over time, started learning what the nuance of 00:04:41.529 --> 00:04:44.069 that meant was, especially the way Sebastian 00:04:44.069 --> 00:04:46.930 explained it. Like, you have a child, you raise 00:04:46.930 --> 00:04:48.790 the child in the way they should go, and then 00:04:48.790 --> 00:04:52.579 you take the training wheels off. And can you 00:04:52.579 --> 00:04:54.279 help me understand? Prudent dowing is what we've 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:57.939 been trying to do. What's that? Prudent dowing. 00:04:57.939 --> 00:05:02.160 Prudent dowing. Okay. All right. So how would 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.819 you say progressive decentralization is coming 00:05:04.819 --> 00:05:08.839 along? I think we've come a long way since the 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:10.680 first day, to be honest. Like if I remember, 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:18.170 the idea was to have a strong SIP curation. And 00:05:18.170 --> 00:05:20.589 initially, we were even thinking about only having 00:05:20.589 --> 00:05:23.189 the sandbox making sips, believe it or not. We 00:05:23.189 --> 00:05:24.589 were like, the first step of the progressive 00:05:24.589 --> 00:05:27.110 decision could be only the sandboxes making sip 00:05:27.110 --> 00:05:29.430 and the community get to vote. And then the community 00:05:29.430 --> 00:05:33.149 gets also the chance to make sip. But we decided 00:05:33.149 --> 00:05:35.870 it was a bad idea. So we are at a stage where, 00:05:35.930 --> 00:05:39.230 from the first day, where it felt like it was 00:05:39.230 --> 00:05:43.980 very much so, you know. the decisions around 00:05:43.980 --> 00:05:45.800 the constitution, the decision around the council, 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:47.740 everything was like kind of decided in advance. 00:05:47.860 --> 00:05:49.540 It got pushed forward to the community in one 00:05:49.540 --> 00:05:53.139 go. I think now we shifted to a realm where we've 00:05:53.139 --> 00:05:54.720 got the community council, for example, that 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:57.079 you know and care about because we co -author 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.500 that SIP with you. When we're trying to open 00:05:59.500 --> 00:06:02.519 up more and more to the community, what would 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:04.779 be assimilated as governance, even though I don't 00:06:04.779 --> 00:06:06.459 really want to call them governance, but at least 00:06:06.459 --> 00:06:10.500 we're giving a more role, more power to the community 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:14.810 with the community council, That didn't work 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:16.610 out, unfortunately, but you see that was the 00:06:16.610 --> 00:06:20.129 effort to make it work with the domain allocators. 00:06:20.350 --> 00:06:24.449 I know you are an applicant for a particular 00:06:24.449 --> 00:06:28.990 domain yourself. With the delegates, so now people 00:06:28.990 --> 00:06:31.670 can delegate their send or land to one of our 00:06:31.670 --> 00:06:35.050 12 delegates. So there's also handing over more 00:06:35.050 --> 00:06:39.050 power to the community and having more, solicitate 00:06:39.050 --> 00:06:42.069 more community participation, I think is already, 00:06:42.569 --> 00:06:45.310 a huge step towards more decentralization because 00:06:45.310 --> 00:06:48.550 now all of a sudden we are electing people, we 00:06:48.550 --> 00:06:51.629 are putting forward people for vote. You can 00:06:51.629 --> 00:06:55.110 select and elect your domain allocators. The 00:06:55.110 --> 00:06:57.470 delegate got chosen. That was a conscious choice, 00:06:57.550 --> 00:06:59.490 but a community council, for example, could be 00:06:59.490 --> 00:07:02.870 voted upon. So I would see all of that being 00:07:02.870 --> 00:07:06.149 a step towards progressive decentralization. 00:07:06.949 --> 00:07:11.050 And I would add to that the willingness for us 00:07:11.449 --> 00:07:14.689 to go above and beyond the limitation of our 00:07:14.689 --> 00:07:17.189 own bubble and our own ecosystem. If you look 00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:19.610 at our community today, what we call the SanFam, 00:07:19.730 --> 00:07:22.569 it's very much, you know, players, gamers, and 00:07:22.569 --> 00:07:25.870 owners, creators, et cetera. But we've tried 00:07:25.870 --> 00:07:29.470 with the CrossDAO SIP, if you remember, to reach 00:07:29.470 --> 00:07:32.290 out to other community, which is to me part of 00:07:32.290 --> 00:07:35.430 the path towards more decentralization. It's 00:07:35.430 --> 00:07:38.519 like how you pierce your bubble. And also reach 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:40.899 out to other community members that are maybe 00:07:40.899 --> 00:07:45.100 on the ApeCoin DAO, Star Atlas, why not? You 00:07:45.100 --> 00:07:47.519 know, et cetera, et cetera. And trying to beat 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.839 these guys. Yeah, no, I'm saying this on purpose. 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.920 You know what I mean? So it's about, you know, 00:07:54.939 --> 00:07:56.839 reaching out to other communities as well and 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:59.279 expanding and having more people pitching ideas 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.060 and the domain allocators. If you look at it 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:05.480 this particular way with the SIP25, which is 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:09.459 the Questbook SIP. We will be featured on a website 00:08:09.459 --> 00:08:12.579 that will enable people that are outside our 00:08:12.579 --> 00:08:15.360 usual community to go and pitch for ideas themselves 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.660 as well. So there's also a way for us to reach 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:21.379 outside of our own bubble. So I think we're well 00:08:21.379 --> 00:08:25.100 engaged towards the path of more decentralization. 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.819 That's for sure. I don't know if there is a... 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.379 um a clear milestone or a clear threshold we 00:08:34.379 --> 00:08:36.120 have passed to say we are fully decentralized 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:39.000 that's it i'm not even sure we'll be ever fully 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:40.940 decentralized and we can talk about that in a 00:08:40.940 --> 00:08:43.799 minute with the way the foundation wrapper you 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.100 know that we've put it around the dow as a protection 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:49.279 measure what it means um so that's clearly like 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.019 the clear legal limit if you want to the definition 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:54.500 of being fully decentralized but i would say 00:08:54.500 --> 00:08:57.970 for me We will be more decentralized once we 00:08:57.970 --> 00:09:01.049 reach a certain critical mass in terms of engagement. 00:09:01.230 --> 00:09:04.049 I think we can do a better job at engaging with 00:09:04.049 --> 00:09:06.870 people outside of our community, get more sips 00:09:06.870 --> 00:09:09.570 in, get more people voting, participating on 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:12.409 a forum, asking questions. To me, that participates 00:09:12.409 --> 00:09:14.490 into being more and more decentralized. Once 00:09:14.490 --> 00:09:16.769 we get more and more people interested, this 00:09:16.769 --> 00:09:21.090 stuff will run by itself after a while. That's, 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:25.590 I believe, the goal here. I really like that 00:09:25.590 --> 00:09:28.830 part. We'll be decentralized once we meet a critical 00:09:28.830 --> 00:09:33.389 mass. I think that's probably what both you and 00:09:33.389 --> 00:09:35.169 the community have been grappling with is what 00:09:35.169 --> 00:09:38.649 does it mean to have successfully, progressively 00:09:38.649 --> 00:09:42.190 decentralized? And now that we understand a little 00:09:42.190 --> 00:09:45.090 bit more what the wrapper is, how it's probably 00:09:45.090 --> 00:09:47.990 not possible to be fully decentralized like the 00:09:47.990 --> 00:09:50.730 pure academic version of it. But in all practical 00:09:50.730 --> 00:09:53.210 purposes, once we achieve that critical mass 00:09:53.210 --> 00:09:55.950 of participation, I mean, we're electing our 00:09:55.950 --> 00:09:58.730 own people. We're participating in elections. 00:09:59.250 --> 00:10:01.169 We've got SIPs that we're able to push forward. 00:10:01.269 --> 00:10:04.590 I mean, that is decentralization, in my opinion, 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:08.289 in all practicality. I agree. And looking at 00:10:08.289 --> 00:10:10.149 it from the perspective of the admin team, right? 00:10:11.110 --> 00:10:13.429 We still receive a lot of SIPs. We're still participating 00:10:13.429 --> 00:10:15.330 in the accretion. We're reviewing milestones. 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:17.549 We're issuing payments. We still have issues. 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.779 um with milestones review with this this stuff 00:10:21.779 --> 00:10:25.179 doesn't work smoothly or as smoothly as i would 00:10:25.179 --> 00:10:29.220 like you know if i were to represent what is 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:32.899 my job is like idea on one hand work it out and 00:10:32.899 --> 00:10:35.200 then you've got nicely packaged sip on the other 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.480 hand of the uh how do you say the the trail and 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:41.799 uh that's what we're trying to do and everything 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:45.019 else is at the service of producing sips and 00:10:45.019 --> 00:10:47.700 then Once the SIP is live, reviewing milestone, 00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:50.059 issuing payment, making sure it all works out. 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:53.940 We still have trouble. Like there's still milestones 00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:58.120 review that don't really satisfy me. We've seen 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.059 SIPs that have paused midway. We don't really 00:11:01.059 --> 00:11:03.700 know why. So there's still a lot of stuff that 00:11:03.700 --> 00:11:06.980 require. manual input and human being behind 00:11:06.980 --> 00:11:09.179 the scenes kind of checking and making sure it's 00:11:09.179 --> 00:11:11.559 okay reaching out to the author being like hey 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:14.539 man you've missed your milestone what's up or 00:11:14.539 --> 00:11:18.019 the data you've provided is not sufficient for 00:11:18.019 --> 00:11:19.919 us to issue a payment can we have a discussion 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.639 all of that stuff still happens and to me being 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:26.299 in a position where all of that can be industrialized 00:11:26.299 --> 00:11:28.960 and be like almost robotic i'm not trying to 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.639 remove people but being like really like processed 00:11:32.390 --> 00:11:35.950 will be another step towards more decentralization. 00:11:36.370 --> 00:11:42.450 Okay, yeah. I forgot to make the disclosure that 00:11:42.450 --> 00:11:45.649 when Cyril was answering earlier about what was 00:11:45.649 --> 00:11:47.450 the next stage, he answered that question and 00:11:47.450 --> 00:11:49.789 he mentioned Star Atlas DAO. If you're watching, 00:11:49.850 --> 00:11:51.549 the reason why he mentioned that is because I 00:11:51.549 --> 00:11:54.809 was just elected to the Star Atlas DAO Council. 00:11:55.070 --> 00:11:59.529 So that's full disclosure. That's why he said 00:11:59.529 --> 00:12:06.059 that. I should have. Oh, damn. It's cool. It's 00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:08.519 a lot of fun. I'm learning a lot because they 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:12.759 also are a foundation company. So I'm learning 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.480 a lot. Like I'm meeting with the director and 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:17.879 all that sort of stuff and just learning a lot 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.059 of what goes on behind the scenes. I'm really 00:12:20.059 --> 00:12:22.899 looking forward to your inputs on how it is administered 00:12:22.899 --> 00:12:26.700 on their end as well, if there are some learnings. 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:30.460 Well, it's administered by the council, mostly. 00:12:31.659 --> 00:12:35.279 Okay, so you already see everything? It's Discord 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.539 based. So it's like forum moderation and you 00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:42.820 change tags and then you submit it to the foundation 00:12:42.820 --> 00:12:45.019 director and they do their sanity check just 00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:48.519 like in Sandbox. But the DAO council is much 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:51.720 more involved in the day -to -day. And we're 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.740 also a big public face. We've already done two 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:57.299 public meetings and they're on YouTube. Imagine 00:12:57.299 --> 00:13:00.259 the special council doing those. meetings on 00:13:00.259 --> 00:13:02.679 twitch and inviting it that's what we're doing 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.759 so it's just a different approach different community 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.279 so i'm learning i'm learning a ton that's awesome 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.240 this whole dow thing is really an experiment 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.620 like there's no two dows that are the same or 00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:18.460 with the same objective or with the same approach 00:13:18.460 --> 00:13:22.820 and it's really you know we're trying to learn 00:13:22.820 --> 00:13:27.830 as we go to be honest um where i mean Making 00:13:27.830 --> 00:13:29.850 mistakes is a good thing as long as we're learning 00:13:29.850 --> 00:13:31.730 from them, right? I think that was probably my 00:13:31.730 --> 00:13:34.289 biggest mistake when I first started engaging 00:13:34.289 --> 00:13:36.909 in this. And I was so intense toward you all 00:13:36.909 --> 00:13:39.710 in the DAO admin team was, I thought the answer, 00:13:39.830 --> 00:13:41.850 I thought we knew what the answer was from the 00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:43.409 beginning. I thought you knew what the answer 00:13:43.409 --> 00:13:45.870 was. I thought like there was this thing that 00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:48.429 this is how you DAO. Come to find out we are 00:13:48.429 --> 00:13:51.750 DAOing now just as we were DAOing then. And this 00:13:51.750 --> 00:13:54.590 is like a DAOing, a continuum of DAOing that. 00:13:55.049 --> 00:13:57.110 That none of us really knows exactly because 00:13:57.110 --> 00:13:59.230 the biggest experiment. I didn't realize that 00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:03.309 in the beginning. Yeah. I have to write my own, 00:14:03.350 --> 00:14:06.929 you know, playbook. You should. You should. You 00:14:06.929 --> 00:14:10.450 are the DAO maker after all. Right, right. Yeah. 00:14:10.970 --> 00:14:14.529 All right. So let's delve into the relationship 00:14:14.529 --> 00:14:17.470 between the foundation and the DAO. I have done, 00:14:17.590 --> 00:14:19.669 I think I'm on part five of my mini series now. 00:14:19.789 --> 00:14:23.259 So I've talked to American lawyers about. Now 00:14:23.259 --> 00:14:27.299 at Case Law, I've talked to Cayman Island lawyers 00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:30.039 about what foundation companies are. I've done 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.179 my own read through. I mean, I didn't expect 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:36.059 the read through of the sandbox documents to 00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:42.019 be six hours long, but it was. So I have no I 00:14:42.019 --> 00:14:43.879 don't take any offense if no one watches that. 00:14:43.940 --> 00:14:47.000 That was mostly for myself. I could not believe 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:50.460 I learned so much reading through all that. Can 00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:53.759 you talk to me? What is your perspective on that 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.539 relationship? Foundation of the doubt. So first 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.379 off, I'll invite everybody to refer to SIP 1 00:15:00.379 --> 00:15:04.279 and 2. Because this is where you've got most 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.639 of the information about the constitution and 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:09.200 the ratification of the foundation with its director, 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.120 with the law firm and everybody that got involved 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:17.799 into forming that legal entity. So that legal 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:19.980 entity is really here to exist as a wrapper. 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:23.559 So it's twofold. It's a wrapper, but it doesn't 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:27.080 really own the DAO. It's also acting as a conduit 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.940 so we can have a footprint, so we can get contract 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:34.679 signed, for example. Every time we buy a software 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:38.100 or interact with a third party, for example, 00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:41.399 to get a piece of work done, the contract is 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.139 with the foundation. So that's what the foundation 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:47.250 is here for. And this foundation has a director 00:15:47.250 --> 00:15:49.870 and we're moving to a company. It's going to 00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:53.590 be a company going forward. But there's a director 00:15:53.590 --> 00:15:55.990 of which role is to represent the board of the 00:15:55.990 --> 00:15:59.870 foundation. And back to what you were saying 00:15:59.870 --> 00:16:03.509 before about being potentially one day fully 00:16:03.509 --> 00:16:06.610 decentralized, this director is really the executive 00:16:06.610 --> 00:16:10.769 man that has veto power over everything that 00:16:10.769 --> 00:16:14.610 DAO does. The community is making a... recommendation 00:16:14.610 --> 00:16:17.590 to the director. And the director is the one 00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:20.350 signing off on the SIP. And it's my team's job 00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:24.230 to make sure this goes without a hiccup. So every 00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:26.429 time there's a new SIP, we reach out to the director 00:16:26.429 --> 00:16:28.330 and be like, hey, man, there's these new discussions 00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:31.889 going on. We've checked it. There's no particular 00:16:31.889 --> 00:16:35.340 thing that requires legal input. I think it's 00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:37.720 a good one. And he say, he asked his question 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.120 and sign off and say, it's good to go. And we 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.179 sometimes, we're still working out the best process, 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.740 but we're trying to have his sign off at the 00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:48.759 same time as doing council review. So, you know, 00:16:48.779 --> 00:16:51.360 when a SIP is live for discussion, before it 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.220 gets published for voting, there's a two -week 00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:55.159 discussion period. This is where the special 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.840 counsel review the SIP because it's mature enough 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.000 to be presented to the special counsel. It's 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.759 not like a discussion with like all of stuff 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:03.879 still up in the air. It is mature enough for 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:07.859 them, but it's yet before the actual voting principle. 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:09.880 process so we can publish their recommendation 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:13.140 at the top you know say council thumbs up thumbs 00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:16.440 down or neutral we do that and we as we push 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:18.420 it to the council at the same time we push it 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:20.880 to the director with all of our due diligence 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.819 being made and we say hey sometimes they require 00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:27.059 legal review so it's our job which lengthen the 00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:29.400 creation process. Unfortunately, it's our job 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.500 to say, hey, we've reached out to our lawyers, 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.220 our lawyers are TTA, reach out to them, talk 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:36.099 to them about the SIP, they ask questions, we 00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:37.779 go back to the author, we make the modification, 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.279 we clarify this whole thing up. So when it lands 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:44.039 on the director's desk, we're making everything 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.059 we can to make sure the director has answers 00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:51.000 to all of his questions and he can just sign 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.299 off on the SIP. Because what I'm trying to avoid 00:17:53.299 --> 00:17:56.599 as much as I can is for everybody to work hard 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.240 and for the author to propose a SIP, for my team 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.000 to review and curate, for the delegates to ask 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.140 their questions, for the SIP to go to a vote 00:18:05.140 --> 00:18:07.700 and the SIP gets vetoed. That's a catastrophe 00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:12.240 because it means we messed up along the way and 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.700 we should have anticipated that. So we're doing 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:18.579 all of that due diligence work ahead. So when 00:18:18.579 --> 00:18:20.619 it lands on the director's desk, the director's 00:18:20.619 --> 00:18:23.339 like, yeah, cool, thumbs up. I'll follow what 00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:26.220 the community has to say, basically. And what 00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:28.359 is it that you've seen other than like the legal 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.099 aspect? What are some questions that you've anticipated 00:18:31.099 --> 00:18:35.240 that we should be aware of? Mostly the director 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.460 will care about commercials and legal aspect. 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:41.700 It'd be like, I don't feel this SIP is really, 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:46.700 the value is not articulated well with regards 00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:50.130 to the cost. will be mostly his questions. It's 00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:52.670 a common sense stuff. You're asking for a ton 00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:55.690 of money, but I don't see the benefit being clearly 00:18:55.690 --> 00:18:57.769 articulated. So then we go back to the author 00:18:57.769 --> 00:18:59.630 either to challenge it or to explain it in a 00:18:59.630 --> 00:19:03.089 better way. And we go back to the director. But 00:19:03.089 --> 00:19:06.369 it's mostly about legality. He doesn't want to 00:19:06.369 --> 00:19:10.869 be rightfully so. He wants to make sure the DAO 00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:13.549 does not get into trouble. So I just want to 00:19:13.549 --> 00:19:15.589 make sure that the SIPs that pass, that gets 00:19:15.589 --> 00:19:20.119 his approval. are squeaky clean. Got it. And 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:21.440 when you say commercial, you're talking about, 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.799 like for instance, Sanchez, if it wants to have 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.460 a partnership with an outside entity, like Thrive 00:19:28.460 --> 00:19:30.460 Protocol or whatever it is we go with in the 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:33.859 end, is that the commerciality that you're discussing? 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:36.279 No, it's mostly for revenue sharing with the 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.440 DAO, for example. Oh, commerciality with the 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.920 DAO. Yeah, or the price of the SIP itself. I'd 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.160 be like, why are you asking like 2 million cents 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.359 for this? You know, it could be... One of the 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.960 conversation, I'm not saying that's what happens, 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.519 but I'm just giving you an example. Okay. So 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:54.000 commercial reality is more about the price of 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.900 the SIP itself, Nick, the impact on the DAO. 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.059 Yeah. And to your point about the stakeholders 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:02.960 that are part of a SIP, they will want to make 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.299 sure there's been KYC, KYB, everybody's legit, 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.579 that kind of stuff. Got it. Interesting. Okay. 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:16.579 Outside partners are KYC. and the author but 00:20:16.579 --> 00:20:20.480 the author is always kyc now here's here's a 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:22.920 technical question i had when i was reading my 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.599 six hour podcast i still can't believe i did 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.359 the six hours that that's just nuts that makes 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:32.339 no sense to me but it but uh are we beneficiaries 00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:36.259 members are we something else or or is that uh 00:20:36.259 --> 00:20:40.259 should i leave that to again i'm i'm not i'm 00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:42.950 not an expert lawyer So I'm inviting everybody 00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:45.990 to do their own due diligence, but I would say 00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:48.769 people are members of the DAO as long as they 00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:52.109 own sand or land. Because being members of the 00:20:52.109 --> 00:20:56.210 DAO means you can participate on the forum, vote, 00:20:56.430 --> 00:21:00.670 and issue a proposal. Got it. So what I was, 00:21:00.809 --> 00:21:03.430 and there's a big long list of questions I sent, 00:21:03.529 --> 00:21:06.569 like 33, and you responded back that it's going 00:21:06.569 --> 00:21:08.910 to take some time to get this. Yeah, last night 00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:11.690 I finally got around to prioritizing them. And 00:21:11.690 --> 00:21:14.670 that's the first thing I think that the community 00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:17.430 should know from the lawyers or from the director. 00:21:17.609 --> 00:21:20.049 Because beneficiaries and members are positions 00:21:20.049 --> 00:21:24.230 within the DAO and designations. It's important, 00:21:24.349 --> 00:21:27.670 at least to me, that I know which one we are. 00:21:28.529 --> 00:21:31.410 I'm inviting everybody to do their own research 00:21:31.410 --> 00:21:33.109 on this one. And that's also the official answers 00:21:33.109 --> 00:21:35.250 from the lawyers, to be honest. They cannot. 00:21:35.309 --> 00:21:37.250 We've been asking for the longest time to get 00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:38.849 some sort of a blanket statement. They cannot. 00:21:39.690 --> 00:21:42.069 We invite everybody to do their own research 00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:44.269 is the answer, unfortunately, because everybody 00:21:44.269 --> 00:21:47.450 lives in a different jurisdiction. That's the 00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:55.950 beauty of a global community. Okay. All righty. 00:21:56.549 --> 00:22:01.309 The next one is, you've seen the DAO even before 00:22:01.309 --> 00:22:05.549 it launched. How have you seen it evolve from 00:22:05.549 --> 00:22:14.930 when it was first? conceptualized to now? I would 00:22:14.930 --> 00:22:21.690 say we went across several stages from overcoming 00:22:21.690 --> 00:22:24.490 expectation, I would say, from the community. 00:22:24.750 --> 00:22:26.990 Like you were saying at the beginning, you said 00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:30.089 that you were very, not defensive, but... I was 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:32.390 intense. Intense is the word you use. I was aggressive 00:22:32.390 --> 00:22:39.059 and I was intense. I demanded answers. Right. 00:22:39.700 --> 00:22:43.059 So we went through those stages from a stage 00:22:43.059 --> 00:22:46.420 where we're trying to do our best. We've got 00:22:46.420 --> 00:22:51.500 this approach. Let's see if it works. The community's 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:58.859 mistrust, intensity, aggression, and now we've 00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:01.539 moved to something that is a bit more mature 00:23:01.539 --> 00:23:05.329 and grown up, I would say, where we... kind of 00:23:05.329 --> 00:23:07.970 overcome expectation, I would believe, from the 00:23:07.970 --> 00:23:10.349 community. I think the community started to understand 00:23:10.349 --> 00:23:15.769 at least what the sandbox DAO looks like and 00:23:15.769 --> 00:23:19.509 how is it about, or at least how it works. So 00:23:19.509 --> 00:23:23.750 we're moving towards a maturation state, I would 00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:26.829 say. And that is about, you know, let's get those 00:23:26.829 --> 00:23:29.250 sips through the door. There's not so many questions 00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:32.250 about how this whole thing works. It's a bit 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:34.519 more about... You know, let's get, let's get 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:36.200 sips through the door. How I can be involved 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:37.940 in governance. Can I be a delegate? Can I be 00:23:37.940 --> 00:23:39.779 a DA? Can I be a community council? Can I be, 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.680 you know, but that's, that's, that's good conversation. 00:23:42.859 --> 00:23:45.440 I really like where we are now when it's less 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:50.279 about proving the exercise of a DAO to the community 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.819 and actually using the product. If the DAO could 00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:57.920 be called a product. Yeah, I believe, I believe 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.319 Kunta said quite a bit how that first, when he 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.750 first got there was about kind of, rebuilding 00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:05.670 trust and and kind of on the tail end of proving 00:24:05.670 --> 00:24:09.230 that the dow should be there i guess you put 00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:12.710 in quotes but now you move to growing like now 00:24:12.710 --> 00:24:15.250 we are we are dowing together we're participating 00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:22.029 we're building and so where you would say we're 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:27.009 we're moving toward the maturation stage i think 00:24:27.009 --> 00:24:28.930 the next thing you uh when the question i asked 00:24:28.930 --> 00:24:31.450 last was where will we be next or what would 00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:35.529 be next? And you said cross -DAO, cross -DAOing. 00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:40.250 The SIP that just went up with Animoca Brands, 00:24:40.250 --> 00:24:43.089 the Animoca tokenomics team, they wanted to buy 00:24:43.089 --> 00:24:47.690 more into A -Point. What's your perspective of 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:53.069 how that plays into the maturation stage? Okay. 00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:58.279 So you're asking for my opinion, even though 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:00.579 my opinion really doesn't matter because that's 00:25:00.579 --> 00:25:02.380 what the community decides, right? So I'm going 00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:05.400 to just answer personally because I don't get 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:06.099 to see any of that stuff. Okay, maybe I'm asking 00:25:06.099 --> 00:25:08.539 the wrong question then. The question I'm asking 00:25:08.539 --> 00:25:11.319 is, when you're talking about, do you believe 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:13.400 we're moving toward a maturation stage? Right. 00:25:13.420 --> 00:25:18.400 And in some cases, we are more mature than when 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.440 you originally started. Yeah. Do you feel like 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:26.839 we are in a maturation stage? Relative to other 00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:28.460 DAOs. Maybe that's the question I'm trying to 00:25:28.460 --> 00:25:32.680 ask. Okay. I think we're still young, to be honest. 00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:35.480 If I look at ApeCoin DAO, for example, they have 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:41.519 like 460 something AIPs. Yep. We've got a handful, 00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:45.839 27, if my memory is correct. So we're far from 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.380 being as prolific as they are. And they've been 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:54.740 DAOing for longer. When I say maturing is like 00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:57.500 definitely, I don't think like we are in the 00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:01.000 stage of, I know you like planets and, you know, 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:03.140 sci -fi and stuff. I think we've passed the Big 00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:05.980 Bang stage and now the planets are kind of forming. 00:26:06.940 --> 00:26:10.720 So it's less chaotic. And now, you know, there's 00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:13.460 the gravity is taking place and we see like, 00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:16.240 okay, there's the council, there's the admin 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.119 team, there's the community, there's like everybody's 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.339 like trying to understand what their different 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:24.690 roles is. So that's what I mean, maybe by maturation. 00:26:25.089 --> 00:26:27.109 That doesn't mean there's oxygen on every planet, 00:26:27.250 --> 00:26:29.289 potentially, but you know what I mean? I get 00:26:29.289 --> 00:26:31.910 it. We're falling into our roles. Right, right. 00:26:31.970 --> 00:26:33.390 Okay, we're determining who we want to be and 00:26:33.390 --> 00:26:35.789 how we want to participate. Right. If we do a 00:26:35.789 --> 00:26:38.630 draw parallel with, you know, basic project management, 00:26:38.769 --> 00:26:41.049 there's like storming, norming, and you've got 00:26:41.049 --> 00:26:43.049 stages you go through when you assemble a team. 00:26:43.589 --> 00:26:45.890 And I think we're like in the norming stage. 00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:48.460 maybe not as performing as much, but at least 00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:50.339 we're on a norming stage where we're like, it's 00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:52.619 not as stormy as it used to be, but now it's 00:26:52.619 --> 00:26:54.619 like, okay, we've got more processes in place. 00:26:55.339 --> 00:26:56.940 We're trying to be super lean with the way we 00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:59.420 administer this whole thing up. We kind of have 00:26:59.420 --> 00:27:02.099 like a whale old machine. We're still tweaking 00:27:02.099 --> 00:27:04.259 it, but at least it's working. And now it's about 00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:07.160 getting into performing and performing with me. 00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:09.099 It's like sip, sip, sip, sip, sip, you know, 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.700 do, do, do, do, do. proposal, vote, proposal, 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.279 vote. We need to increase our SIP cadence would 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:20.039 be a good metric for us to observe. But to answer 00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:26.759 your question about cross -doubling, it is for 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:33.299 me a way to, from my perspective, right, as a 00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:35.980 human being, as a SanFam, like everybody else. 00:27:36.750 --> 00:27:39.450 I see some benefit to reaching out to people 00:27:39.450 --> 00:27:43.170 that are outside your bubble. And it's the same 00:27:43.170 --> 00:27:48.450 when you have a kid. The kid's universe is his 00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:52.589 bed. Then it's his house. Then it's school. You 00:27:52.589 --> 00:27:56.630 know what I mean? As you mature, it pushes your 00:27:56.630 --> 00:27:58.730 boundary and your universe becomes bigger and 00:27:58.730 --> 00:28:03.450 bigger. So I think that was the idea behind this 00:28:03.450 --> 00:28:08.599 SIP. I think as I've expanded into the other 00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:12.200 DAOs, first it was voting in other DAOs, like 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:18.119 Squiggle DAO or Whale DAO or ApeCoin. There's 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:22.440 some others. And now I'm getting into governance 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:28.319 of other DAOs as well. I'm learning that no two 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.799 DAOs are the same, even if they both are foundation 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:36.009 companies and they're both gaming DAOs. which 00:28:36.009 --> 00:28:38.369 in this case is Star Atlas, the way they operate 00:28:38.369 --> 00:28:41.930 is vastly different. Even internally, the rules 00:28:41.930 --> 00:28:45.089 aren't the same. It's really interesting. And 00:28:45.089 --> 00:28:48.569 I'm learning so much that as soon as I see this 00:28:48.569 --> 00:28:50.470 over in Star Atlas, I'm like, wait a minute, 00:28:50.569 --> 00:28:54.809 we could be doing that in sandbox style and vice 00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:58.349 versa and vice versa. So I'm really seeing that 00:28:58.349 --> 00:29:01.230 play out. It's really fascinating. I'm having 00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:04.890 the time of my life. Yeah, I'm glad. Right. And 00:29:04.890 --> 00:29:07.250 that's the spirit, right? It's just looking at 00:29:07.250 --> 00:29:10.569 what your neighbors do and then steal their ideas. 00:29:10.730 --> 00:29:14.490 Yeah. What's your involvement in the foundation's 00:29:14.490 --> 00:29:16.670 day -to -day business? Or is there any for you? 00:29:17.049 --> 00:29:19.869 Well, I'm reaching out to the director, like 00:29:19.869 --> 00:29:24.849 I said. And the admin team in general is collaborating 00:29:24.849 --> 00:29:28.630 with the director for SIP Review. That's pretty 00:29:28.630 --> 00:29:33.500 much it. I'm liaising with the lawyers. The lawyers, 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:35.259 yeah, like everybody else is employed by the 00:29:35.259 --> 00:29:38.400 foundation, but it is about, you know, reviewing 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.799 SIPs and making sure our contracts are good and 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.940 making sure that that was protected. But I don't 00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:45.660 have a role per se. The only person that has 00:29:45.660 --> 00:29:49.819 a role at the foundation is the director, really. 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:52.359 Do you interact much with the lawyers at all, 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.980 TTA? Oh, yeah. Really? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:29:56.879 --> 00:30:01.259 Okay. Very often we've got a huge backlog, like 00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:03.160 I've told you. So, you know, I don't know when 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.160 I will be able to answer your question. If ever 00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:08.279 I'll do my best, but we've got a backlog that 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.059 we track with them on notion of stuff to do. 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:13.579 They've been very responsive. So they're also 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:15.680 learning how to work with us. Right. Because 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.140 it's a, it's a law firm and the admin team is 00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:21.660 very much a project team. So there's like. that 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:24.099 we have that, you know, they don't necessarily 00:30:24.099 --> 00:30:26.319 have and vice versa. So we're learning how to 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:28.519 work together, but they've been providing good 00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:31.440 advice and we're trying to have them at least 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.839 giving a quick sniff test to every sip. And sometimes 00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:38.359 it requires more than a sniff test. Contract 00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:43.059 review, you know, is one of them. What else? 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.700 Yeah. Sometimes we, they review podcast episode. 00:30:49.660 --> 00:30:54.859 They might review this one. Yeah. That's no problem. 00:30:57.380 --> 00:31:01.559 Right on. What's your involvement in the DAO's 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:06.200 day -to -day business? Well, as the founder of 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:09.099 Arasakyo being the admin team, the official admin 00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:11.619 team of the DAO, I would say my involvement is 00:31:11.619 --> 00:31:14.960 the sum of the team's involvement. So everybody 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:17.940 has a dedicated role. So, you know, for example, 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:20.740 Bobby, that is in charge of communication and 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:23.160 being our community manager, you know, liaising 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:27.319 with the community on the day -to -day, also 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:32.480 doing for moderation, et cetera. We've got, yeah, 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.900 it's been Dox, Juan P, who is our treasurer. 00:31:37.220 --> 00:31:39.900 And we've got Paul and Geraldine, which are in 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.990 charge of SIP curation. So, you know, handling 00:31:42.990 --> 00:31:46.990 payment reporting, maintaining relationship with 00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:49.970 partners, upgrade and maintain the DAO stack 00:31:49.970 --> 00:31:52.730 is one of our missions as well. So making sure 00:31:52.730 --> 00:31:56.089 the website stays up, making improvement to the 00:31:56.089 --> 00:31:58.210 website. I don't know if you realize we've been 00:31:58.210 --> 00:32:01.509 doing some language updates recently. I have 00:32:01.509 --> 00:32:03.869 noticed that. All right. Yep. So we do that. 00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:06.529 Very good. I know Seb gets happy with that one. 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.680 Oh, really? Yeah. He talks about that a lot in 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:16.059 the forums. Really? Okay, cool. For example, 00:32:16.059 --> 00:32:18.779 following the publish at SIP23, which was the 00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:22.200 new budget structure, we have to re -upload new 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:26.079 budget category on the dashboard page and link 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:28.660 them up to the new wallets that will support 00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:31.319 these new budget categories. Oh, yeah. I tried 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:33.240 to access the budget the other day or yesterday 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:35.660 and it's under construction. Yeah, it's under 00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:37.460 construction because of that. So reaching out 00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:41.200 to a backend dev and frontend dev to make sure, 00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:46.599 you know, we've got, you know, basically backend 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:48.660 talking to the frontend and this whole thing 00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:51.460 being linked up correctly and being updated on 00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:54.099 a daily basis, not necessarily real time, because 00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:57.019 that would mean too many blockchain calls that 00:32:57.019 --> 00:32:59.660 are too expensive. So, you know, thinking about 00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:02.480 all of that stuff. And what about your involvement 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:06.809 with the Sandbox team? okay there's a lot about 00:33:06.809 --> 00:33:12.049 um awareness i would say um that some you know 00:33:12.049 --> 00:33:14.970 i get invited i go to the office sometimes i 00:33:14.970 --> 00:33:16.609 just talk to the people on the ground and i'd 00:33:16.609 --> 00:33:21.039 be like hey um I think I'm carrying the flag 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.660 of decentralization there, if you want. Sometimes, 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:25.819 like, hey, you know you can do a SIP, right? 00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:29.140 How about discussing with the community on this 00:33:29.140 --> 00:33:32.180 one? Can we do Game Jam with the community? We've 00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:36.410 tried. I think that was SIP 7 or 8. It didn't 00:33:36.410 --> 00:33:38.609 pass quorum, but was one of our ideas. Like we 00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:41.049 walk the floor and talk to the game jam manager 00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:42.569 and be like, hey, that'd be cool to have a game 00:33:42.569 --> 00:33:43.970 jam because at the end of the day, it's people 00:33:43.970 --> 00:33:46.349 voting and selecting a game. So why not just, 00:33:46.369 --> 00:33:49.329 you know, asking the community to do so? The 00:33:49.329 --> 00:33:53.269 UGC SIP, remember for the website? Was also an 00:33:53.269 --> 00:33:55.230 idea we've got talking on the floor with the 00:33:55.230 --> 00:33:56.710 sandbox people. So we're trying to, you know, 00:33:56.710 --> 00:33:59.869 be like, hey, what can we do collaborating with 00:33:59.869 --> 00:34:03.150 the staff there that will, you know... that the 00:34:03.150 --> 00:34:05.630 community would love to do because we want to 00:34:05.630 --> 00:34:09.070 decentralize more and more. I think the purpose 00:34:09.070 --> 00:34:10.730 of the DAO and the sandbox DAO is to eventually 00:34:10.730 --> 00:34:13.489 have more decision -making powers in the end 00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:15.429 of the community, right? But somebody has to 00:34:15.429 --> 00:34:22.110 try to push this forward with the sandbox teammates. 00:34:23.670 --> 00:34:26.250 I think one of the biggest things that I didn't 00:34:26.250 --> 00:34:28.969 realize and I was slow to understand was the 00:34:28.969 --> 00:34:33.780 separation between the Dow and the sandbox company. 00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:36.579 I always knew that there was, you know, the Dow 00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:39.119 was its own legal entity. Once I understood the 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:41.440 rapper part, but what I didn't understand was 00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:43.659 that it's not just that there's a legal separation 00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:47.539 there. Like you, you are your own entity separate 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:50.880 from the sandbox. So when you walk in, it's not 00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:54.219 like, Hey, uh, we're in the same team meetings. 00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.519 And like, when, when I talk that the team's going 00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.110 to listen, like there's. There's like a convincing 00:35:00.110 --> 00:35:02.309 collaboration that you have to do. Absolutely. 00:35:02.769 --> 00:35:06.590 And that's at the core of, remember the roadmap 00:35:06.590 --> 00:35:10.869 stuff? Yep. Yes. And how it was difficult to 00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:17.130 pass a SIP that is about a feature request for 00:35:17.130 --> 00:35:20.550 one of the sandbox product, being the game maker, 00:35:20.750 --> 00:35:24.530 the game client, or the voxel editors. These 00:35:24.530 --> 00:35:27.829 guys, they have their own roadmap. So imagine... 00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:31.449 That would have been me or one of my teammates 00:35:31.449 --> 00:35:34.250 knocking at the door of the product manager in 00:35:34.250 --> 00:35:37.070 charge of this roadmap and be like, hey, the 00:35:37.070 --> 00:35:39.369 community is asking for this. And they're like, 00:35:39.449 --> 00:35:45.429 yeah, we're busy. Rightfully so. Because they 00:35:45.429 --> 00:35:47.730 have a whole roadmap of stuff they're trying 00:35:47.730 --> 00:35:50.409 to do and they're pushing and they get their 00:35:50.409 --> 00:35:54.210 own vision for the sandbox and their own ambition 00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:57.139 and they are... This is their job. They've got 00:35:57.139 --> 00:36:00.500 product manager that are pushing for a vision 00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:02.280 for the particular product and they manage the 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:05.340 roadmap and the community requesting stuff. They're 00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:07.659 like, oh, we thought about it. It's not on the 00:36:07.659 --> 00:36:09.940 roadmap for this year. Actually, it is, but we 00:36:09.940 --> 00:36:11.719 can't publish the roadmap as it is because it's 00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:14.099 changing so much that we don't feel comfortable 00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:17.840 putting it forward. These are all, from the Sandbox 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:19.320 point of view, it makes perfect sense. Having 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:21.480 been a product manager myself, I totally understand. 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:25.559 So when you say... I don't work on water when 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.460 I'm in the sandbox. It's all about convincing 00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:32.679 people to play the game of decentralization. 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:39.460 It's not a done deal. But because it's a transformation 00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:41.719 and every transformation is difficult, right? 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.719 And you're moving from a model where people were 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.320 employees and they get to do what their boss 00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.019 tell them to do, basically. To now, they have 00:36:50.019 --> 00:36:52.780 to interact with the community and deal with 00:36:52.780 --> 00:36:55.699 communities' opinions and feedback more than 00:36:55.699 --> 00:36:57.980 they used to. I'm not saying they ignore the 00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:00.420 community. Of course, they don't. They get communities' 00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:03.219 feedback and bug report and bug bounties and 00:37:03.219 --> 00:37:05.119 all of that stuff. But now you see it's managed 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.900 in a different way. It's organized via DAO. So 00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:12.699 this is more impactful. So, you know, you have 00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:15.360 to deal with that. So I've been SamFam since 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.550 2021. So I saw what SanFam was before the DAO. 00:37:19.710 --> 00:37:22.769 And as an experienced publisher, I got to see 00:37:22.769 --> 00:37:28.789 the back end of studio to sandbox relationship 00:37:28.789 --> 00:37:32.409 being an experienced publisher. So when you say 00:37:32.409 --> 00:37:35.610 that more than they're used to, like they have 00:37:35.610 --> 00:37:37.090 to interact with the community now more than 00:37:37.090 --> 00:37:40.070 they're used to, I completely understand what 00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:45.989 you mean. And what wasn't obvious to me was that, 00:37:46.670 --> 00:37:49.789 That situation, free DAO, is the same situation 00:37:49.789 --> 00:37:53.869 you're in, where you have to convince, collaborate. 00:37:54.530 --> 00:37:59.510 I think if I had known that, I would have been 00:37:59.510 --> 00:38:03.889 far less demanding and intense. Yeah. Because 00:38:03.889 --> 00:38:06.769 you mentioned that roadmap SIP that I published 00:38:06.769 --> 00:38:12.929 before the October version 2 SIP process. I remember 00:38:12.929 --> 00:38:17.769 being really... aggressive with you all about 00:38:17.769 --> 00:38:19.969 that because I'm like, we need a roadmap. We 00:38:19.969 --> 00:38:22.250 need it right now. And like just the back and 00:38:22.250 --> 00:38:25.730 forth and poor Geraldine. I apologize to her 00:38:25.730 --> 00:38:29.869 all the time. Just I was aggressive and relentless 00:38:29.869 --> 00:38:34.210 about it. And now I understand. Now I get why 00:38:34.210 --> 00:38:36.889 it wasn't just a sure. Here it is right now. 00:38:37.730 --> 00:38:40.289 Exactly. I have no authority over the Sandbox 00:38:40.289 --> 00:38:43.300 employee at all, but they've been great. I mean, 00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:45.480 working with them is awesome. They collaborate 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:48.400 with me. They try their best to play the game. 00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:52.800 No pun intended. But they also have their own 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.179 bosses and they have their own vision and they 00:38:55.179 --> 00:38:58.820 have their own constraint. Right? So they have 00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:01.039 to deal with that. And sometimes you feel like 00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:04.849 they are, you know... how do you say stuck between 00:39:04.849 --> 00:39:06.969 the hammer and the hot place you know it's it's 00:39:06.969 --> 00:39:09.170 difficult for them to manage everything and i 00:39:09.170 --> 00:39:11.510 totally understand but they they've been they've 00:39:11.510 --> 00:39:14.670 been awesome frankly and the roadmap being published 00:39:14.670 --> 00:39:18.630 was a was a huge win for for everybody for for 00:39:18.630 --> 00:39:21.250 the dow for the sandbox for for for everybody 00:39:21.250 --> 00:39:24.070 um yeah i have it up right now where people can 00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:27.489 see it right right right there you can see the 00:39:27.489 --> 00:39:29.670 roadmap and and i love this thing we just did 00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:33.530 a dated life So it's not like a one -off thing. 00:39:34.449 --> 00:39:39.889 They are willing to maintain that piece. Not 00:39:39.889 --> 00:39:41.949 only for the DAO, but for everybody that is interested, 00:39:42.130 --> 00:39:44.070 because we've got players that don't necessarily 00:39:44.070 --> 00:39:47.010 vote or pay attention to the DAO, but they still 00:39:47.010 --> 00:39:49.289 pay attention to the Sandbox product. They can 00:39:49.289 --> 00:39:54.449 use that as well. Yeah, I can see when they added 00:39:54.449 --> 00:39:58.570 stuff last, their activity. This is cool. This 00:39:58.570 --> 00:40:01.500 is very close to what I was... looking for in 00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:04.320 the rest of the community so i pre and if i didn't 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:06.639 say it thank you thank you for working through 00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.599 that and all the convincing you had to do to 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:17.340 make that happen merci beaucoup cool that that's 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:19.159 the majority of what i want to talk about just 00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:23.639 kind of discuss through the particulars of of 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:26.599 what's going through your mind what's your perspective 00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.860 on these sorts of things because now that now 00:40:29.860 --> 00:40:31.619 that you've done those podcast episodes where 00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:34.460 you revealed like the battle plan where you, 00:40:34.539 --> 00:40:38.280 you know, NFC Lisbon, the website turns on, this 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:41.059 sips, it's going to be great. And then the disappointment 00:40:41.059 --> 00:40:46.000 that you said you felt at our reaction, I get 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.059 it. I, I, so I get it. I get why you, why that 00:40:49.059 --> 00:40:52.340 was like a good battle plan from a product manager 00:40:52.340 --> 00:40:55.820 and, and wanting to, you know, impact and momentum. 00:40:56.179 --> 00:41:01.440 Like I, I completely understand it. So, yeah 00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:05.420 i'm glad we're a team i'm glad that that you 00:41:05.420 --> 00:41:09.320 too yeah so thank you for thank you for being 00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.300 a teammate and thank you for i guess you could 00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:15.320 say patience but more of like your your perseverance 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.059 because as intense as i was and as intense as 00:41:19.059 --> 00:41:21.639 the wrestling community was you kind of persevered 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:26.360 through that and and um now we're on the other 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:31.269 side of it and i get it And I want to be building 00:41:31.269 --> 00:41:35.610 with you. That's awesome, man. Thank you. I really 00:41:35.610 --> 00:41:37.789 feel like we are on the other side of the sandstorm. 00:41:38.369 --> 00:41:41.409 That's a perfect analogy. It is. We just keep 00:41:41.409 --> 00:41:44.130 on hitting it one after another. Wow. Play the 00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:49.710 game, the sandstorm. Amazing. Right on. Is there 00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:52.610 anything that you would like to say? Any plugs? 00:41:52.789 --> 00:41:56.400 Any shout outs? Now I would say if people are 00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.699 interested in what we do at the Sandbox DAO, 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:01.940 you know, just go over to the website, go over 00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:07.880 on the forum. So it's www .sandboxdao .com. And 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:10.360 from there, you can get access to our forum, 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:13.500 to our snapshot for voting. If everybody want 00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:17.599 to reach out to me to understand how DAOing works 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:19.599 or is interesting into opening their own DAO, 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:24.349 they can always visit www .arasak .io. A -R -A 00:42:24.349 --> 00:42:28.869 -S -A -K dot I -O. And I'll be happy to oblige. 00:42:29.869 --> 00:42:34.949 The DAO maker. Yeah, the DAO maker. And I have 00:42:34.949 --> 00:42:36.550 the website pulled up right now. It kind of looks 00:42:36.550 --> 00:42:38.309 a little bit like this, everybody. Just look 00:42:38.309 --> 00:42:41.809 down, right down there. Cheers. Yeah, DAO design, 00:42:42.010 --> 00:42:43.550 DAO administration, DAO tooling, which is the 00:42:43.550 --> 00:42:45.010 exact same thing you're doing right now for the 00:42:45.010 --> 00:42:49.329 Sandbox DAO. Yep. Last thing I wanted to ask. 00:42:49.349 --> 00:42:52.929 I'm trying to professionalize DAO as a service. 00:42:53.369 --> 00:42:59.750 Yeah. D -A -A -S? Yeah. I think what pops in 00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:01.309 my head just as you're speaking about that, what 00:43:01.309 --> 00:43:05.590 are some key metrics that we should look out 00:43:05.590 --> 00:43:08.329 for or that I should pay attention to to ensure 00:43:08.329 --> 00:43:12.590 that you're looked after just like you look after 00:43:12.590 --> 00:43:15.369 us? I think form registrations, some of the things 00:43:15.369 --> 00:43:19.570 you put in your biweekly updates. Ah, you mean 00:43:19.570 --> 00:43:22.769 in terms of DAO performance? Yes. All right. 00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:27.670 We've been working with Paul, our new teammates, 00:43:27.829 --> 00:43:31.610 about KPIs for quite some time. And it's really 00:43:31.610 --> 00:43:35.190 hard to define. And it's a whole can of worms 00:43:35.190 --> 00:43:37.690 and probably another podcast episode, but just 00:43:37.690 --> 00:43:41.250 in two seconds. How do you know you've succeeded 00:43:41.250 --> 00:43:43.949 at building a DAO? How do you know your DAO is 00:43:43.949 --> 00:43:46.510 successful? What are you looking at? First off, 00:43:46.590 --> 00:43:49.230 what's the mission of this DAO? Is it about, 00:43:49.309 --> 00:43:52.150 we believe that for 2025, that's why we've pushed 00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:55.849 in SIP 23, the mission for the DAO for 2025 is 00:43:55.849 --> 00:43:58.550 more community engagement and create more send 00:43:58.550 --> 00:44:01.409 utility. What was that? More community engagement 00:44:01.409 --> 00:44:07.469 in what? Send utility for the token. Okay. So 00:44:07.469 --> 00:44:10.010 we're going to look at every SIP through that 00:44:10.010 --> 00:44:13.599 lens. But how you measure send utility, how you 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:16.000 measure community engagement is what I mean by 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:19.340 the KPI stuff. It's hard to pull off. So we've 00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:21.159 been battling with this for quite some time. 00:44:21.219 --> 00:44:23.059 We went from something that is super complex 00:44:23.059 --> 00:44:25.920 to something that is simple. For example, do 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:27.760 you measure send utility by just measuring the 00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:32.460 amount of transaction? And if so, this has nothing 00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:37.699 to do with, that could be swayed by intraday 00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:40.480 trading, for example, or arbitrage. And this 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:42.280 has nothing to do with the initiative that you 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:44.460 do at the sandbox level or the DAO level. So 00:44:44.460 --> 00:44:47.079 all of a sudden your data is polluted. So, you 00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:49.500 know, trying to be able to extract KPIs that 00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:52.400 are meaningful and for which we have the right 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:56.420 levers to influence them will be, so then we 00:44:56.420 --> 00:44:57.920 can, we know that when we're doing something, 00:44:58.019 --> 00:44:59.719 we're moving the needle in the right direction. 00:45:00.659 --> 00:45:03.320 Right. It's what we're working on right now. 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:07.380 Okay. But yeah, I think. Beyond the usual vanity 00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:09.679 metric of number of followers and presence on 00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:12.139 the forum and stuff like that, it's very important 00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:16.559 to get more voters, more people who delegate, 00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:19.800 and more sips. That's how you measure engagement 00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:27.320 at the end of the day, right? Okay. As I DAO 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:31.500 horizontal, I take in things from other DAOs, 00:45:31.579 --> 00:45:35.820 I am... And I know I'm not the only one. I can't 00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:40.920 be the only one. Where as soon as you nail down 00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:43.519 those KPIs, I think it would be really helpful 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:46.760 to post it so that I can see it as well and others. 00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:50.760 Because as I'm DAOing across DAOs, there are 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:55.559 constant opportunities and different little nuggets 00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:58.460 that I take from them. And I'm at all times looking 00:45:58.460 --> 00:46:01.460 out for how can I bring the DAO to improve it. 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.639 What can I do to help? And if I know what those 00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:07.400 KPIs look like, then maybe I can focus my efforts 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:10.119 on some things that will give you a much higher 00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:14.179 increase than if I were to just form apply. Yeah, 00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:17.199 I appreciate it. Yeah, at the end of the day, 00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:21.280 the KPI, I think, are made public because it 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.179 is a way to track the admin team performance. 00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:26.420 to a lesser degree. It is a way to track the 00:46:26.420 --> 00:46:28.179 DAO performance as well because everything we 00:46:28.179 --> 00:46:30.039 do as an admin team should participate towards 00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:32.340 this KPI. Everything the author do when they 00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:35.760 advance a SIP should participate into the betterment 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.300 of these metrics supported by those KPIs. So 00:46:39.300 --> 00:46:41.500 they should be made public because then every 00:46:41.500 --> 00:46:43.420 time there's a new SIP that is being proposed, 00:46:43.579 --> 00:46:46.340 we're going to be like, hey, to which KPIs this 00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:48.519 is attached to and what are you trying to improve? 00:46:48.659 --> 00:46:51.059 Are you going to improve sensitivity, community 00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:53.869 engagement? Nothing at all. You know, what is 00:46:53.869 --> 00:46:56.050 it? So we're going to use that as a way to assess 00:46:56.050 --> 00:46:58.750 proposal as well going forward. When we'll be 00:46:58.750 --> 00:47:02.070 mature with them, which is a working process 00:47:02.070 --> 00:47:06.110 of progress. Well, that's everything I wanted 00:47:06.110 --> 00:47:09.090 to go over, Cyril. Thank you so much for your 00:47:09.090 --> 00:47:11.469 time. Pleasure. Thank you for having me. Yeah. 00:47:12.170 --> 00:47:17.349 Everyone, this was Sandow podcast number 63 with 00:47:17.349 --> 00:47:20.150 Cyril Forte, even though I'm butchering his first 00:47:20.150 --> 00:47:23.420 name. All right. And he's the DAO administrator 00:47:23.420 --> 00:47:25.659 for the Sandbox DAO, has been since the beginning. 00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:29.420 And we have gone through many stages together, 00:47:29.659 --> 00:47:33.079 forming, storming. And I think now we are getting 00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.920 to the norming where he's on the podcast now. 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:42.119 There you go. Me, who used to be an intense critic 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:46.300 in some cases. And I appreciated the grace, the 00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:49.360 patience and the perseverance, Cyril, to you 00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:51.139 and your team. Merci beaucoup. Thank you so much. 00:47:51.530 --> 00:47:55.429 Thank you, sir. Au revoir. Peace. Ciao.