Good morning, everyone.
Send out podcasts 44.
Today we have a special guest, Hervé Lorrain, spelled A-I-R-V-E-Y.
And if you're looking at the dashboard, it's A-I-R-V-E-Y dot E-T-H, Hervé.
He is one of the 12 delegates that was just announced three, four days ago for the Sandbox
Dow.
Today we'll be doing a meet and greet and it will be a learning opportunity to learn
about Hervé and how he wants to approach delegation, who is the best fit as voters,
and to learn about Hervé.
Welcome, Hervé.
Good morning to you.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me from YGG in Manila at the moment.
In Manila.
So everyone from...
So you're there.
Are you on tour?
Are you meeting meet and greet?
Yeah.
So I'm doing an Asia roadshow at the moment.
So I went from starting at Singapore 2049 to Hong Kong FinTech Week to then the DEFCOIN
in Bangkok.
And this is the final stop.
So YGG Manila.
And I'm in between also meeting a lot of members of the Sandbox family here in Manila as well
over the weekend.
So I'm very excited about it.
Very good.
And our disclaimer is we do not represent the Sandbox game or the Sandbox DAO Foundation
that I'm aware of.
Do you represent Sandbox DAO Foundation in any way?
Hervé?
No, just as a delegate.
Just as a delegate.
All right.
So we are not your financial or legal advisors.
Nothing we say is to be taken as financial or legal advice.
When we say the word SIP, we mean Sandbox Improvement Proposal.
When we say the word DAO, we mean Decentralized Autonomous Organization.
But when we use the word SandFam, we're talking about the Sandbox community, those who participate
in the people, product, and purpose of the Sandbox ecosystem.
That ecosystem looks a little bit like this.
We have people everywhere from gamers to the Sandbox team.
The product would be the game client, VoxEdit, Game Maker, Market, and the DAO.
And the purpose would be not only what is spoken of in the white paper, but also how
Sebastian Bourget, Arthur Medide, both co-founders of the Sandbox, and yet Sue speak about the
vision and purpose of the Sandbox.
All that together equals the ecosystem.
And for our purposes today, we're zeroed in on the people sector of the ecosystem, specifically
the DAO delegates.
Sandbox and Scoreboard have not moved because the DAO admin team has been hard at work getting
the delegation system online.
And we all started on May 28th via a Medium article when the DAO was launched.
September 10th, the DAO, Sandbox, DAO opened up delegation applications.
And then November 13th is when the 12 delegates were announced.
One such delegate we have here today, Hervé Lorrain.
And I'm Lancer, your host, Sandbox DAO podcast, and president of the MetaWorlds group.
We have two experiences.
But that's not why we're here today.
We're here to talk about Hervé.
And Hervé, welcome.
If you wouldn't mind, please.
I have a little bit of your background here.
We'll fill in the gaps in between.
Born in France, went to school in Montreal, Montreal, and also the United States.
So you got your MBA, Masters of Business Administration from Columbia.
And you also attended the Harvard Business President Program.
Go ahead.
Yes, post MBA at Harvard Business School.
Post MBA.
There we go.
That's a good word.
Post MBA, Harvard Business School.
Found at LVMH, Louis Vuitton, Moet, Tennessee, very recognizable, very recognizable company.
You also started your own Bitcoin mining company in 2013.
I found a picture, I think on a news article, maybe coin telegraph, where you've got your
hard hat on in the server room.
You can see in the background, all the, they look like ant miners.
And 2013.
So almost from the beginning, very close to it.
From there, you assisted Grayscale during their hunt for SEC approval, which they eventually
gained for their fund.
And you've been in the metaverse since about 2017.
And it says you first heard about the metaverse through Decentraland's ICO back in August 2017.
You built a gallery in Decentraland, so you're no stranger to building in the metaverse.
And you're the first person ever to bid a million on an NFT, which was that, that people
had over 5,000 different NFTs all bundled together as a collage.
But what, what, what lasted six seconds or so before you finally, you got outbid and
the winning bid was $66 million.
Million?
Yeah, 69 million.
69 million, which is quite a feat.
So I'd say you were quite successful in kicking off a storm for raising the bar on NFTs.
At least when you were describing it during your podcast with the gentleman whose names
escaped me.
Was that the reason why it all started?
You thought, hey, we need to raise the bar on this and then decided to vote a million
on it?
Yeah, so for the backstory, I was advising one of the largest neighborhoods inside of
Decentraland.
And at that time, it was pre-metaverse times, pre-Facebook launching the metaverse, and
they actually didn't have any money at the time.
So they said, you know, we'll give you something.
And that something ended up being an art gallery.
It was actually two art galleries that they gave me.
So basically two parcels of land with galleries inside of a gallery area that had 80.
And I was the first one to build that art gallery neighborhood.
And when Christie's put an auction, the Beeple, they knew I had a bunch of art galleries and
they said, well, you know, we're putting an auction, an image of Beeple, 5,000 days.
And you know, since you have an art gallery that you could be interested in.
And I said, well, what is the starting bid?
And they said it's $100.
So I said, I said, OK, that sounds good.
How much do you expect it goes for?
And they didn't have a clue.
So I ended up asking for a certain amount.
They've raised my limit on the side.
So when it actually went to a million dollars, that was the limit that they actually gave
me for that auction.
But we all thought it was going to go for way less than that.
And then after that, it started.
But I think the interesting part is that I was the only one that they gave the video
and the material to actually promote it.
So when I went on the Crypto Benter show, interviewed by Ran, the actual video and information
that he's showing is actually the official marketing material of Christie's to promote
the first ever NFT auction.
So that was the interesting part about it.
And how did you decide on a million?
Was it like the just the flashiest bar kind of set the tone?
Well, I thought about 100,000.
That was my initial thinking about it.
When you actually bid with Christie's, they they ask for your financial, they ask for
your passport, credit card, etc.
It's actually a very serious process when you actually enter an auction.
And through that, they had actually approved me for a million dollars.
And when I actually started to bid pretty early on, my maximum limit was reached.
So I was live on the podcast when I was actually bidding.
So I actually did place real bids.
It was a real auction and live.
And since I committed to play some bids, I placed the bid till my maximum limit, which
ended up being the maximum limit for the first couple of hours.
And obviously, at that time, we even thought that we didn't even understand how I could
reach the limit so early on in the game.
And it's funny because in a matter of a couple of weeks, I went from it's crazy somebody
putting a million dollars on an NFT unheard of and then a couple of weeks after.
So I was the craziest person, highest bidder literally in the world for a couple of hours.
And then a few weeks later, when it reached 69 million, everybody told me, I can't believe
you low bid.
That was so interesting to see in the especially in crypto in a matter of a couple of weeks,
how the momentum changes.
It feels yesterday when Bitcoin was at $30,000 and now it's at 100,000.
We feel it's almost it's almost normal now.
It kind of sinked in.
And then I was listening to an interview this morning that are talking about Bitcoin at
a million.
So it's actually interesting how fast people's perception can move in bull markets.
And some ways it feels like you were a victim of your own success on that one.
Yeah.
And finally, and something that I haven't really heard people talking about is actually
during the time of the auction, the price of Ethereum went up 20 percent.
So it was actually not only a bull market for NFTs, but in parallel to that, just the
prices of Ethereum skyrocketed at the same time.
So which was which was quite interesting as well as far as the momentum.
So not only we saw the price of the auction go up, but the price of the currency as well
go up because you could actually pay with with Ethereum and Bitcoin as long as you had
a US account.
And it's funny because you had at the end two groups of people.
You had the ones who were Ethereum Maxis who actually won Metakov and who won was an Ethereum
Maxi.
And the guys who were more Bitcoin Maxis, actually their pay started to slow because
it didn't go up as quickly as Ethereum during the same period of time.
So it was really the first time where I saw two different groups going at it.
And ultimately, the Ethereum group won this one.
Yeah.
And would you say that's common for Ethereum and Bitcoin to go up in different intervals?
Well, I mean, there's two ways to look at it.
I look at the dominance of each of these currencies.
Bitcoin was always around or at least today is around 60 percent.
Ethereum around 13, 14 percent, which was kind of the case as well.
But I think obviously that entire NFT craze for a couple of months was obviously built
on Ethereum.
So at that time, Ethereum was just it was just I would call it just the beginning of
really the Ethereum bull market or at least bringing it to that past $2,000.
I think we were about $2,000 at that time, which was the all time high.
Yeah.
Well, I was showing while you were speaking, I was showing the video podcast with Crypto
Banter, the background, right when you're saying that it's live and showing the actual
Christie's website in the bed.
And there it is straight in the middle.
One million bucks.
Yeah, with probably my eyes going all around the screen to try to understand what is actually
going on.
It took us a few.
It took us a good 20 seconds to realize that I was the highest base to the point that around
the host didn't actually immediately understood that I was the highest bidder and was asking
me to go above that bid.
And I says, Ren, I'm the highest bidder.
And so even even him took him a little bit of time to understand what was going on.
Yeah, I think I think we were all all just trying to figure it out.
All trying to figure it out.
So a bit a bit of history on that.
And then as you moving through the years, you joined Horizon Labs in 2021.
Was it specifically to advise on Apecoin or did you start out as something else and then
moved into Apecoin?
Yeah.
So when I created my my my company that actually has my name, AirVeil, so I'm focused on on
the on tokens and tokens in different ways.
So at first, as you said, it was on the mining side of tokens.
Then it was on the ICO side.
Then after that, it was on the on the the governance sides.
And in that case, the part that really interested me was the creation of tokens.
At that time, I was a holder of the the Zen token, the Horizon Zen token, which was one
of the first one that had a grayscale vehicle.
And I had given my tokens to a few grayscale vehicles to go public.
And the Zen token was one of the tokens that I was looking at.
In fact, probably one of the first ones to actually buy some Zen tokens, which was a
fork of Zcash.
And then from there, a new division opened Horizon Labs.
And you know, I already had my company and took over Horizon Labs as one of the clients
within my organization.
And one of the first literally after a few months, one of the first projects that came
knocking on the doors were the four founders of BYC and said, hey, we're interested into
finding a partner to launch, which was at first the Metaverse.
Actually a funny story.
It wasn't actually Apecoin that was the first project.
It was the Metaverse that was supposed to be launched first, then Apecoin.
And a few months before the launch, it turned around and Apecoin became the prior launch,
followed by the other D, the NFT drop, followed by the staking.
And then the last four parts was actually this year with the Apechain.
So that was the Apechain.
I was more hands on as I was the lead on that project.
But yeah, I had the chance to have a first seat looking at what then became a little
bit of a part of history within the space and seeing a token going from zero to eight
billion in 20 minutes was probably the most interesting thing in terms of value creations
that I've seen.
And when I was running the numbers, I think from when I gathered it, it reached all the
way up to 1.3 billion.
Yeah, actually.
So there's two numbers that came out.
There's a number of $27 for a token, which would make a $27 billion market cap.
I even heard that it hit for a fraction of a second $40.
So that would have made it a $40 billion market cap.
But that was during the price discovery of the first 30 minutes.
And after 30 minutes, it kind of stabilized at $8.
So I'm taking the $8 figure as I would say the average and probably the lowest average
of it all.
But on price discovery mode, the range is pretty wide.
The other also interesting part is that the tokens when it was presented to a lot of different
parties before being launched, you couldn't give it away.
I mean, people were just not interested in it at all.
And seeing that it created a $8 billion market cap, it was a good I told you so type of story
afterwards.
Yeah, you were on a podcast and one of your old Harvard cohorts, she said, yeah, you've
definitely told us seven years earlier that crypto was the way to go.
And there you were seven years later on the podcast with her.
Yeah, and even it wasn't even like a big vision that I had.
It's just that my mom is Venezuelan and asked me 10 years ago to send money to Venezuela
and the only thing I could send were bitcoins.
And I thought, well, if it can solve my problem, it probably can help millions of people around
the world, which was kind of the first case study of Bitcoin, which was remittance after
an example that we take.
And each time that I hear people talking about transferring value from one country to another,
I always have the feeling they talk about my story because that's literally how it started.
So there were 50 countries back then whose economy collapsed.
And I thought it could be useful for them.
So that was mainly the stories that I was saying.
I was saying, hey, you need to have a plan B in case of the economy of your country collapse.
In my case, it was the richest country in the world in terms of oil, reserve of oils,
more than Saudi Arabia.
And I thought, well, if that country, Venezuela, can collapse, then it can happen to any other
currencies.
So it was very much more of an insurance policy that I was suggesting to a lot of my classmates.
And in a funny, not funny ways, the people who actually remembered that story are mostly
from Lebanon.
And they said, well, if I would have acted on this, we could have never imagined a few
years after that our country would have collapsed, that the banking system would have collapsed,
that would have saved us.
So yeah, so it was always that narrative that I kind of really kept that you need to have
1% to 5% of your net worth as an insurance policy.
And it turned out to be true for developed, for up and coming countries, but also from
developed one with inflation.
So and ended up working, I guess, at this point for the entire world.
Yeah, you definitely seem to be in that kind of entrepreneurial spirit of solving a problem.
And first you solved your own problem and then evolved into how many other problems
can I solve?
But it looked like Christine, you and Christine way back in the day.
She's Lebanese.
So she had that problem, that problem first hand.
Yeah.
So Horizon Labs led you to all sorts of solutions that you architected with Apecoin, Apechain,
the start of the metaverse, ending with Apechain.
And then you felt like your time at being on the advisory council, excuse me, the special
council for ApecoinDAO, that you'd achieved your purpose and it was time to move on to
the next chapter.
And did you go straight here to Sandbox or did you stop somewhere else in between?
Yeah, so you resigned not like a month ago.
Yeah, so there were two things.
The first one, when I ran for special council, the purpose was really the launch of Apechain.
That was what I promised to work on and to deliver.
I'm happy to say that we were able to create an AIP that caused zero to the DAO with the
Apechain and it became the North Star of the DAO to the point that now the entire focus
of the DAO is actually on building Apechain.
So talking about the return on investment, something that caused zero to the DAO and
now becomes the purpose and the focus of a big part of the treasury, 100 million in that
case is quite remarkable.
Building the vehicle for zero and then having $100 million of fuel on top of it, I felt
that AIP 378 was probably going to be the AIP that was the best ROI ever in history
for DAOs.
Bringing Arbitrum, Horizon Labs and an entire community together at zero cost, it's probably
unheard of.
So, yeah, I was very happy to lead that project.
Once it got ready to be unleashed, I felt that my job was done there.
And then I had other clients that I had to really focus on, including Animoca Brands
and the launch of their Bitcoin token, BeLife.
So this was the task.
Feels like a while ago, but at that time, we felt that the price of Bitcoin was going
to start to move and we need to get ready to launch that token that builds, that brings
the Web3 on top of Bitcoin.
So that is the focus.
And at the same time, Sandbox asked me to be one of their verified delegates and maybe
to use some of their learnings that I had in the past, being on three DAOs simultaneously
and maybe there was some learnings there.
And what excited me about it is that probably the task that I felt was going to be a good
challenge from a delegation standpoint.
And what excited me is to create the first East meets West delegations and to have inside
of one delegation representatives and token holders of all three continents.
So Europe, US and China.
I had a chance to spend time with Sandbox China and they were very excited about that.
So when I floated the idea and I felt that the Chinese community was very excited to
delegate some of the tokens to me and kind of to reunite the vision of a DAO and bring
three continents together.
This is what excited me actually to come and become a delegate for Sandbox and accepting
the invitation of the Sandbox team.
And when you say East meets West and all three continents, that's one of the reasons why
you are where you are right now in the extended travel itinerary you have is because where
you grew up in France and you also went to school in America and in Montreal, Asia is
not the place where you frequented as much.
So you're trying to network and share the vision and everything that goes with being
a delegate.
Yeah, exactly.
I felt that often one of the I felt that I've accomplished everything that I wanted to accomplish
in the previous DAO and maybe the only thing that wasn't accomplished as far as I would
have liked is to have stronger relationships in Asia.
And the reason why it was simple, I didn't spend time here.
And no matter how many Zoom calls and telegram chats you have, I think it changes a lot when
you go and visit Manila, Bangkok or Hong Kong and you spend time face to face and you get
a feel for the different community.
And it's also a form of respect to actually go see people and introduce yourself.
And I felt that being French, I knew the sandbox environment, I know where their offices are,
I get a feel from it.
Living in the US, I get a good feel from the US side of things.
But Asia, I thought I had a feel but I didn't.
Now after spending a number of weeks here, now I can say that I feel comfortable within
that environment.
What is it that you say you've learned or come to understand that you didn't before?
So I think there was two things.
I think that we often think that the markets are always the same.
Like the Asian market, the American market, the French market.
We feel that it's the same and we don't often focus on the cultural differences that there
is.
And I feel that that part was the cultural differences, understanding what works in a
certain culture or another.
I think that was a big one.
The other one is just to know the individuals on a personal basis.
I think that was probably the biggest thing.
And third, really explaining the vision.
And sometimes, especially if English is our first language, we have the impression that
everybody just gets up to speed as quickly.
But sometimes it takes a little bit of discussions and more emphasis.
So I realize that sometimes with even myself as a French speaker, sometimes you need a
little bit more time to understand a little bit better what the entire vision is and not
just assuming that if you shoot an email that everybody will get it at the first read.
So I think that was important.
Gotcha.
So creating the first East meets West delegation representing all three continents.
And let's go to where your SanFam history began.
I think you probably have one of the more interesting, you have one of the more unique
beginnings of SanFam.
You actually, I don't think became a holder right away.
You because you're from France, also you already knew Sebastian and Arthur Mardige.
Did you meet them at their offices?
Did you know about SanFam or Sandbox specifically?
How did that take place?
So it was funny.
So I always knew about the name Sandbox.
I think everybody within the space knew about it.
But funnily enough, I actually knew Arthur before knowing Sebastian.
And I feel it's almost a little bit the reverse when I see most of the people.
They usually know Sebastian and kind of loosely know Arthur.
But yeah, so I actually knew Arthur and I knew Arthur not even through our crypto event.
I had a friend of mine who was a DJ who was having lunch in the south of France and who
says, oh, you're in crypto.
I need to introduce you to another guy who's in crypto.
And Arthur came at the lunch and we were there and I was explaining a little bit my story
and he was, you know, oh my God, this is amazing, et cetera.
And then after that, I tried to ask him and you what's your focus in crypto?
And he said, well, I co-founded Sandbox and I'm the CEO.
So I got humbled very quickly within that first meeting and we became friends at that
time.
It was through Instagram friends, et cetera.
And then over time, I actually got to know Sebastian way after that.
So when I would go to the Sandbox office, it was mostly to see or at least the few times
to see Arthur and not which was which was quite interesting.
And it never was.
It was more about, you know, talking about the industry just just in general.
And then the only time where they really we had discussions were around when they were
thinking about creating the Sandbox now.
And I actually think I did the first draft of the doubt that I've that I've sent to
them.
And and after that, they built it and created their own and internally.
But yeah, so I was pretty early on in the in the conversation and then, you know, wasn't
involved for at least a year and a half and then came back as a delegate.
So you about when did you meet Arthur?
Oh, like we're talking 10 years ago, like early, early days or five years ago.
OK, OK, got it.
And then you you met said so I've watched many art many videos of Arthur because I wanted
to interview him one day and and early on when he spoke in Argentina and many other
places, it was he was speaking and then Seb was Seb was president, but it was mostly Arthur
speaking.
And then it seemed like about not long after Animoca got involved, then Seb, they flipped
and Seb was speaking a little bit more.
I think one of the last ones I saw of Arthur really speaking all the time was how he was
getting into the block chain that they were they were now moving from 2D mobile now to
3D block chain metaverse.
And he was really excited to explain about what they were trying to do with the land
and the white paper and Felix, that's a long time ago, 2018.
And then after that, I started seeing Seb speaking more and more at the conferences.
So it was a very interesting transition how how that took place.
So you met him about 2020 through a DJ friend of all of all contacts and assisting the first
draft of the DAO and so about 2023.
When that would have started about 10 months ago.
No, it was probably a couple of years ago.
A couple of years ago.
Yeah, it was okay.
I'll have to go back and see exactly the days.
It's okay.
So you were assisting with the first draft of the DAO.
So like before even the current DAO admin team got involved, because in the white paper,
I guess it does mention the DAO right away.
So how did that work?
They just said, hey, we how do we approach a DAO?
So I think it was purely based on the experience with the 8.0 and how this got created.
And I think, you know, I mean, I was probably not the only one that they were talking to.
But certainly, well, actually, I might have been.
But yeah, it was to learn a little bit the DAO.
I think it was also maybe a combination that was I was based in the I was French based
in the US worked on the 8.0.
So I probably was on the short list of the of the person to talk to.
And and and I think, you know, we actually got hired to actually do that first, you know,
document.
So it was actually an actual, you know, presentation that was done around that.
You know, I was wondering, I've done quite a number of few podcast episodes on the sandbox
DAO and the founding documents, which they were released for SIP number one and two.
And it always struck me just how similar ApecoinDAO was sandbox DAO was to ApecoinDAO the way
it was the way it was was conducted in the Cayman Islands as a foundation company.
And then you had the Constitution and the bylaws and the articles and the tech stack.
They were very similar when I was doing my comparison in a few some episodes ago.
So we have you to thank for that is what I'm hearing.
Yeah.
I think I think also I think also the interesting part was sandbox is actually a voter on the
ApecoinDAO sandbox.
I heard about that sandbox as a delegation.
And they actually voted quite a lot, actually.
So not only were they very involved, the obviously a lot of board of community members had lands
on sandbox.
I think Bay of I.C. still has a piece of land.
They do.
I just checked the other day.
They're still there.
Yeah.
And one of them, a very big NFT owner as well is a sandbox.
So very, very close relationships between these two DAOs.
And also, as far as DAOs to take example of, you know, the ApecoinDAO is probably one of
the most known one.
Yatsu was one of the first the first batch of special council members on the ApecoinDAO.
So that creates also proximity.
And so, so, yeah, there was there was quite a lot of crossover, which is, I would say,
predictable or at least normal in an industry that still remains small now and even more
so a couple of years ago.
So yeah, it's now I think DAOs are going to evolve in different ways.
You know, sandbox DAO has landowner, which, you know, as of the ApecoinDAO doesn't.
I think the business cases are so different.
But and the purpose also of DAOs, you know, is the purpose of the DAO to give the grants
to our community or is the purpose of the DAO, you know, focused on building products.
So I think there's there's quite also a lot of different philosophies between them.
Yeah.
And that's that's taken place right now.
I mean, as you can see, the discussion surrounding like, what do we even do?
Because most of us didn't know what a DAO was until May 28.
I didn't even know what a DAO was.
I had to Google it and figure out like, oh, this actually is not a new thing.
The DAO started in 2016.
And even before that, I listened to a podcast where DAOs started well, well before that
in 2013 ish as as decentralized autonomous corporations, according to Aaron from from
artifact labs.
And so it has a it has a history long predating even.
But here I am.
I never heard of a DAO until recently, and neither had the rest of us because we're just
gamers.
We're gamers and landowners.
And then suddenly, here's a DAO.
So it's a learning experience.
And by extension as well, you know, a football team like the Green Bay Packers are the first
version of a DAO.
They're owned by the community.
The same thing with Real Madrid.
So if you look at the the history of communities reuniting after around a cause, you know,
there are examples also outside of technology, those network effects created around a certain
belief.
So it's actually once you start going down the rabbit hole, it's actually you start
making all those, you know, take those weird twists and turns and to understand, you know,
how the kind of mindset worked in the past as well of communities, you know, uniting.
Yeah.
I did not consider that.
I didn't know Green Bay Packers were owned by the community.
So you really became SanFam, it seems like, in at least 2022.
So when we talked about the ecosystem earlier, you've been a participant, at the very least,
for going on a couple of years now, it sounds like.
Yeah, I would say as far as, you know, knowing about the ecosystem and following it, I would
say probably very, very early on.
And then after that, as far as having them as delegates within the 8.0, that must have
been started 18 months ago.
So that interaction.
And they actually voted, Sandbox actually voted for me as special counsel.
They gave me their vote.
They also voted.
Well, they voted for a few proposals that I put forward.
So I, you know, I would say the same thing with French Apes.
You know, there were a couple of delegations that I knew on a personal basis and was able
to explain a little bit the vision.
And I was fortunate enough that they thought was aligned with the best interest of the
community.
Yeah.
And what would you say?
At what point did you either get your first San token or land?
So land, I never had land in Sandbox.
I never I never had land in it.
As far as and the reason was also I was an advisor on the biggest commercial zone of
the central land.
So I actually was with advisor at the central end.
So that's right.
I got you.
Yeah.
So it would have been a little weird to also own land if I had a art gallery.
It seemed like you're playing both fields, both sides.
Yeah.
And also from a time perspective, you know, it was so that's that was the reason why.
And then as far as the token is concerned, I was going in and out of the token quite
a bit over the over the years.
And I believe they launched it in 2020.
So, OK.
So you've kind of been one of those silent San Fam participants for quite some time.
Yeah, I mean, it's silent, but I would say more in real life participant because I was
also at the majority of sandbox events that were happening, whether it was in Hong Kong
or in Paris.
So I was often seen within, you know, in real life and probably among all the protocols
that I've interacted with, I probably the know the most people at sandbox.
So as far as knowing an organization, I would say probably sandbox ranks pretty high up
there, and that's purely of proximity as far as as far as being in my mother city, which
is Paris.
So that obviously makes it easier.
And also over the years, I have the record numbers of panels at Paris Blockchain Week.
The last few years, I did five of them.
And I watched that you moderated those panels.
Yeah.
And I moderate the gaming panel, which there's always obviously a sandbox representative
on.
So I did quite a few panels with sandbox representative and usually the gaming and metaverse panels.
I moderate them, or at least I've done in the past, and I might do it this year as well.
So yeah, so I was very familiar with their ecosystem.
All right, I think we have fully, fully revealed your background and all of this.
Let's get into your delegate, your delegation perspective.
What would you say is your approach to voting?
I looked up your voting history and snapshot, and it looks like you are mostly yes, but
no stranger to voting nos or abstentions when called for both in the Apecoin DAO and the
Mocha DAO.
So as also some decentralized votes, how did you approach your voting in those environments?
Yeah, so I probably also didn't vote as much as in all of them.
I certainly follow every single proposals, but obviously being special counsel or involved
on some of these projects also abstained quite a lot.
The other thing that I try to do is each time that I vote, and especially if it's a no,
I always fill up the little box with the one line.
Yeah, me too.
That's always a good way to explain something.
Yeah.
So I think it just helps.
And obviously, certainly having also put proposals and AIP, including the Apechain, I really
valued people even if they put a no to explain me why it was actually a no.
So I always thought it was helpful.
And I would say also the approach of voting might be a little bit different from sandbox
where the proposal process tends to be very curated from the beginning, which ultimately
gives proposals that have certainly been jumping through a certain number of hoops before being
put in front of the community.
Other proposals tend to be just put up there and have maybe less barriers to enter.
So I think that's a good way to put it.
Which is neither good or bad.
It's just a process.
So I certainly feel that certain DAOs, once it gets in front of the delegates, might be
in a place where the value add to the project is better understood, or at least the idea
is explained in a deeper way.
So yeah, so I think.
And then there's other DAOs that I followed pretty closely, including the Arbitrum DAO,
which is the technology for the Apechain.
The reason why we decided to partner with Arbitrum and thought it was the best fit for
the Apechain is also their DAO process and how they do it.
And they also have a different way to do it.
There's certain barriers to entries in terms of numbers of tokens that you must have in
order to place bids.
Temperature checks and yeah, I read a little bit of their constitution.
Temperature checks, you have some, it doesn't go to snapshot directly.
So there's also a few other things.
And also just the size of their community, which is much bigger and their big delegates
who is actually significantly big and the level of these delegates.
I had the chance to meet all of them.
We're talking about seasoned crypto and technology experts who are giving their thoughts and
often their proposals are highly technical from the get go.
So it's very hard to just say yes or no on a lot of their proposal.
You need to really spend the time and understand.
And there's a reason why they pay their delegates is because it's actually a full-time job to
actually having a very, you know, a very definite answer about judging a technology is extremely
difficult.
I mean, certainly to judge the Arbitrum technology.
I mean, the teams, the engineering team and the discussion that they had were extremely,
extremely high caliber.
So it wasn't only a popularity contest where it tends, you know, Dow tends to go in that
direction, but also a highly technical analysis as well.
So I think it's the combination of both that usually creates the real value add in these
ecosystem and how, what sort of voting strategy or perspective do you bring now to the sandbox
Dow?
So you're not special counsel on the sandbox Dow, which kind of frees you of that obligation
or conflict of interest, but you still have a code of conduct that you that you've agreed
to within the sandbox Dow as a delegate.
How now do you plan on approaching voting?
Yeah, so, so yeah, we do have to sign a code of conduct in order to onboard as a, as a
delegate.
And then the voting, which is going to be the experiment that I'm excited about is how
do I get, you know, representative of three different continents agree on a vote?
And that's kind of like the internal challenge that actually I'm putting, I'm putting together.
And one of the important aspects of taking over that role of delegate is, was for me
to really talk about, you know, a number of individuals who, you know, wants to delegate
tokens to, to, to this, to, to, to this group, to this delegation, but also want to get involved.
And if it wasn't for them excited to be part of it, you know, it wouldn't be something
that I wouldn't taking as a challenge.
I think that having a group of people represented, representing their own communities and for
all of us aligning on the decision making process, it's going to be so the votes on
that delegation, I suspect are not going to be me deciding, you know, yes or no.
Okay.
I might press the button at the end.
But what is important to me is that making a unanimous decisions towards the cohorts
of individuals that I'm, that I'm talking to.
And for me, that concept of East meets West delegation, you know, I wouldn't want the
East or the West to, to feel unheard of it and just be the East delegation, for example.
Got it.
Yeah.
So that would be the philosophy around it.
That's fascinating.
I don't think I've heard that, that sort of approach yet.
So while you may press the button, you're really just a reflection of the East meets
West delegation as it decides and ideally unanimously that which way they want to vote
on each proposal.
Yeah.
And I think also it's the other part, what I was very keen on is not doing it as a Dow
within the Dow and based on the number of NFTs that each of us has or the numbers of
token, et cetera, but really to having more of a dialogue type approach and making decisions
not based on the voting power of individuals, but based on their, you know, their thought
process, which I think makes it quite interesting because it's going to quickly, what quickly
is going to come out is can we work together or not?
And at which moment, so it could, it's either going to be the biggest success story or the
biggest failure or somewhere in between.
But there's entrepreneurial spirit coming out again.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's literally going to be like having roommates.
Either we're going to become best friends or either somebody's going to leave pretty
quickly.
So we'll see which way it goes.
Yeah.
I'm really fascinated now.
I think that's a very unique approach.
I'd like to, as I consider who I myself want to delegate to, that this is an interesting
approach and interesting cause.
How interesting.
So how do you foresee people participating in the East meets West delegation?
How do you see them having that dialogue to where you end up clicking the button?
Yeah, so I think the way that I want to position myself is that the clicking of the button
is so obvious that it's not even a debate.
And it's almost like, it's almost like, I feel, and also maybe because a few of the
members are really well experienced, I feel that the answer to the exam should pop up
directly and if we don't all have the same answer, then understanding what we missed.
So I think that's where we're envisioned to be.
If there's major discrepancies or thought process, then I'm going to be curious to know
why I didn't have the same analysis and where I went wrong or where they went wrong.
So I think pretty quickly we should get to a consensus, or at least that's my hope.
Yeah.
Well, you're putting in the time right now to make sure that it does end up being successful.
So I think we talked about through your involvement in other DAOs, not just ApecoinDAO, but Blythe
protocol and connection to Yatsu and Domo, who's the creator of BRC20 and their aim to
become the largest utility in the ecosystem of Bitcoin blockchain.
We talked about your former special counsel role where you were elected in January 2024,
you stepped down in October 2024 after you met the aims that you were after with the
Apecoin, Apechain, and ApeStake.
Was there anything else that you wanted to note on your time as special counsel in the
ApecoinDAO?
I mean, there was ApecoinDAO, but also I was special counsel on the HorizonDAO, the Zen
token, which was one of the original OG tokens, one of the first one with a grayscale vehicle,
but a very important community in Korea mostly, and a token that was listed very early on
in all the major exchanges.
So it was really the founding grounds of a lot of projects and also throughout the special
counsel position, I went from being at the foundation level of the Horizon Foundation
to then special counsel of the HorizonDAO.
So also kind of lived that transition between, let's call it for lack of a better term, centralized
to decentralized while being a special counsel.
So I think that that was probably a very interesting experience.
We saw that on the case of Apecoin, it started as a DAO on day one.
In the sandbox, the special counsel came in when sandbox became a DAO.
But in that case, we went, we kind of fixed the plane while we were in it.
So I think that in terms of transition times, that was actually the most interesting one
as far as being it.
And I also kind of build a little bit the DAO from a special counsel standpoint.
And to this point, I would say that in terms of healthiness of DAOs instead of agreements
of special counsel members, in terms of international element, I think that all this actually were
seven DAO members.
The seven members are actually in all of different countries.
We don't have any two special counsel members in the same country.
We have two out of the council, the council out of the seven are women.
So I know it doesn't sound much, two out of seven.
But I haven't seen yet another special counsel that had two women as part of it.
I can't recall any disagreement as far as the DAO to the point of an unhealthy disagreement.
There's certainly conversation.
And also in terms of managing budgets in a very almost being addicted to be under budget.
Maybe even that maybe that's a flaw actually to be under budget over time.
So I think if there was an organization's ranking DAOs and actually putting notes, I
think it would rank extremely high as far as that set up of doing it.
So yeah, so that was something that I think should be highlighted as well.
And that was Horizon Global.
Yeah.
Hmm.
I don't think I'm very familiar with them.
I have to go look them up now after this.
The only reason I gave it any familiarity with them was when I was looking into your
profile and and I saw that you were a special counsel for both life and Horizon.
And are you are you still special counsel?
Yep.
Okay.
I'm still special counsel on the Horizon.
So it's the Zen tokens and they're working also on a new token called ZK Verify, which
is the next the next projects being developed by Horizon Labs.
Okay.
All right.
And I think we talked about Apecoin and ApecoinDAO and Apechain and ApeStake.
And let's I think from your when you discuss in your delegate description connecting the
TSBDAO to to different Web3 communities.
So you're not just talking about Horizon or ApecoinDAO.
Are there other Web3 communities that you'd like to connect the DAO to?
So one of the so often so there's two ways to answer this.
The first one is that what I've been advising a lot of projects or one of the things that
a lot of projects had in common is that they were in gaming.
And I think that I not only look at the Web3 communities, but also look at the gaming community.
So for example, right now in Manila, it's a gaming conference that I'm at.
So I would say that we have gaming, whether it's from Web2 or Web3.
I've spent time at Gamescom in Germany about the largest Web2 conference in the space.
The first year that I went there, I counted three booths out of 800 that had the term
Web3 in it.
They were almost 10 times the amount.
So I've seen the evolution of slowly Web2 gaming getting into Web3 or maybe it's Web3
gaming, you know, spending time inside of Web2.
But I think that the gaming community overall is a massive opportunity in the space.
In fact, one of the companies that I was advising, Exola, is or is and was the largest payment
processor within gaming.
They're the PayPal of gaming.
So I was, you know, I got very familiar to the gaming space in general.
I think also the Be Life token, which I advise and I'm the special counsel of with Yatsu
and others, they came out of a gaming company, the second largest gaming company of Arimoca,
which is the ex team of Assassin's Creed, the Ubisoft game.
They're the ones who are behind the Be Life token.
So very much the DNA of that organization is gaming.
Now it's gaming building on top of Bitcoin.
But gaming is something that obviously they are known for and the reason why they got
acquired by Arimoca.
So I think overall, when I think about community is not only, you know, within the community
that I was involved with in special counsel, but it's a broader space out there when it
relates to gaming.
And I think that's where I'm excited about the onboarding element.
Okay, I wasn't tracking that angle at all until you just said that.
That's an interesting connection.
There's a lot of things happening in the gaming space, even web 3 gaming space, even outside
of the sandbox where you see potential opportunities there to connect the communities.
Yeah, and I'm lucky that this year, one of the projects that I've been advising Blocklords
with the Lords token is the number one game on base and they got a Coinbase listing on
day one.
So for a pure game to get a day one Coinbase listing and trending number one on base is
unheard of to the point that the CEO of Coinbase uses the Blocklords as on their presentations
as one of the success stories within the space.
I see.
Huh.
And you have ideas for what how that partnership might be between the Dow and the communities
or the sandbox?
Yeah.
So surely they have a partnership with Markovers.
So they did a token drop to all mocha holders.
But you know, I do suspect that there's potentials to have more synergies than just being involved
with with one Dow.
Got it.
Makes sense.
And when so when you spoke later in your description, when you when you spoke about the fresh opportunities
that you envision, that's also what you're speaking to.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
And real world use cases.
What were some examples of examples of those real world use cases?
Or did we just go over them with Blocklords, Exola, Life and and so on?
I think the interest the other interesting thing about sandbox and the company and the
game and less about the Dow is that they're probably one of the project with the most
partnerships of any.
Oh, my gosh.
They have so many partners.
Yeah, I think over 400 or plus.
I was so I was on the sandbox booth at Hong Kong Gen 3 Summit and they had a partnership
with that lollipop company called Chupa Chups.
So they I even said, well, why there's so many lollipops here?
Like is that this is well, they're not.
We're doing a game with them.
So even even from from NFT projects to to supermarket chains to professional teams to
music labels and and lollipops.
So I think in terms of real cases, sandbox already ranks as as number one.
And also what I would like and and and maybe I shouldn't chew too many things on day one.
I think the East meets West is already a good topic.
But also having these brands have a delegation or certainly delegating to some of the delegation.
I think that they should be part of the decision making process of of the Dow.
You know, the largest delegation right now of Apecoin is made by Apes, who represents
hundreds of companies within the space.
I think that there should be something similar with sandbox.
You know, they have a huge number of companies.
And I think that would also, you know, at least from a learning process, would be interesting
to have them being being on board.
And and I believe that if a company signs up, you know, having them voting as well,
maybe could be could be something I wouldn't say it's a requirement, but I would say it
would be a fun fact for them to to know of.
Yeah.
That's fascinating.
And I'm aware of me by Apes and and how the business end of Apecoin Dow, they've come
together and and trying to make quorum to within their own delegation to vote.
I think they have like six million voting power, so quite quite a substantial amount
presence within the Apecoin Dow.
Yeah, that's something that could happen here.
What kind of delegate would you like to be known as to fill in the blank of?
AirV is blank.
Well, I think would be an open minded delegate when it relates to, you know, building an
an international cohort and and also somebody who hears and listens to to the different
members of the delegation.
Yeah, that's I think that's quite clear.
Quite clear.
All right.
So what what sort of steps would you say that you don't support?
I think it's too too early to say.
I feel that my certainly my expectation is that because of the the process of the sandbox
now that once SIPs arrives in front of the delegates, that they will be in a place that
would be, you know, very well thought through.
So I suspect that this might be the case.
And you know, I feel as well that there's going to be inspirations taking from the gaming
world, the Web3 world, the landowner, the token owner.
So it would be interesting to see, you know, where the community what's their number one
focus today, because already, you know, speaking to landowner, they have certain ideas in mind
that might not be the same ideas of gamers that might not have other ideas of token holders.
So I'm curious to see where that first batch of SIPs will bring us.
Yeah, yeah, it's going to be it's going to be interesting.
Because of the many when I did my podcast episode on the sandbox ecosystem, it was about
an hour, I think hour long.
And that was just an introduction.
And that was me putting pen to paper for here are the different sectors that I know of.
And I went a little bit through it in the beginning.
But that ecosystem that I ended up org charting out, it's big.
It's really, really big.
You don't just have token holders.
You have many different types of participants in the ecosystem.
Everyone from land brokers, we don't own anything.
And they just broker deals to major landowners.
You you've got, oh my gosh, you have a lot of different interest groups with a lot of
different with a lot of different things that are important to them.
So that's why I'm very interested to see how your East East meets West delegation takes
a takes a stance on that.
Because not only do you have the different types of San Fam people, but now you have
different cultures and different within different types of San Fam.
That's a tough challenge.
That's gonna be tough.
And to build on that, I mean, it's it's 10pm right now in Manila tomorrow morning, my 9am
breakfast is with an entire interior designer, a Filipino interior designer who created a
studio for sandbox.
So he's he's not only he's not a broker.
He's not he's a studio owner creating experiences on top of land.
So just to build on what you're saying.
Wow.
I'm really, really fascinated, Erve, how how you're going to bring together the East and
the West.
I was just talking about that with another delegate old one.
And I also just interviewed last night.
I mean, how time flies.
But I just interviewed a number of delegates, old one, especially where speaking about how
diff.
Oh, it was crypto mo.
So also known as mo fat, one of your fellow delegates, and OG Shakespeare just came in
with 17 people saying hello, erve from another channel.
So everyone where we are currently interviewing erve, one of the the the 12 delegates that
was just approved, and he's looking to create an East meets West delegation to bring together
the three different continents, Asia, Americas and Europe to to bring a consensus to where
all he has to do is just really reflect the will of the East meets West delegation and
and come to that unanimous decision.
So man, that that's so fascinating that how both mo fat said the same thing as did an
old one speaking to how different even between Korean and Chinese communities are.
It's you I can see how this being the one of the final things you want to do in a Dow.
It's I'm interested to see how you solve this problem.
I think it's going to turn out to be a template that we use.
Because that's one of the things in the San Fam community that's been a barrier, a challenge
for us is the different cultures.
And that's not being able to really come together yet, because it's difficult for us to communicate.
Yeah, so maybe this is one of the ways in which we solve that that issue.
So what would you say as a San Fam voter?
What type of San Fam voter best fits your delegation style and the East meets West strategy?
Yeah, I think I think it's a it's a couple of things.
The first one I want, you know, people who who like that that philosophy about it, about,
you know, that that reuniting is having somebody who, you know, speaks French to talk to the
to the French sandbox team understands the local markets and bridge the gap between the
two of them, which is something that I was doing at the LVMH based on the US, you know,
importing French products to the US market.
So I had a little bit of training on this and I feel it's a it's a cut and paste within
a different industry.
And I think also I want I want people to have fun within that delegations.
I want people to who are there because, you know, they they have they want to have that
fun aspects.
Also, I want it to be an enjoyable experience.
I want it to be an experience not only online, but also in real life.
You were mentioning old one.
I had a great time with him in Hong Kong.
You know, yeah, we were, you know, very transparent about our delegations, our objectives, what
we wanted to do.
You know, we spent time together.
So, you know, I don't want to create those delegations when it's a rivalry and, you know,
I'm going to vote at the last second to outbid you type of where I wanted to be, you know,
very transparent from from day one.
And I think that even, you know, he has, you know, you know, leading another delegation,
you know, I feel that, you know, we will both be working for for the greater good and for
and for the Dow in general.
And I feel not only is going to be a very positive working relationship within the delegation,
but also I hope a very positive experience with other delegations as well.
So yeah, I'm very excited about that.
Well said.
Well said, not a competition.
The opportunity to cooperate.
And I think you are we already spoke on this, the delegation process.
So you were you were asked to by the sandbox team.
And so did you also go through the application and the interview process?
Okay.
Yeah, I've done I went through through all of it.
And then how were you notified that you became a delegate?
I think it was an email.
I think they emailed me and saying that my profile was was approved.
And now that I didn't know that there was a two million dollar, not a dollar, two million
voting power gift that would be bestowed, I think it's a very fascinating way to eliminate
the quorum problem.
And I think I think most people probably would agree that, you know, that the two million
VP split among 12 now is a very interesting way to to to take out off the voting power
from one sandbox wallet now to spread among the delegates.
Does that change the weight you feel of voting or the process by which you want to vote?
I think well, so there's two things.
The interesting part is that when you look at the large wallets of most of the Dows,
you know, most of them were towards airdrops, actually.
Yeah.
OK.
So, you know, having that transition of a Dow midway, I feel that, you know, kickstarting,
you know, everybody in an equal way is actually the right way for people to really think about
the SIPs and not be on the road trying to convince delegates to, you know, convince
token holders to delegate their tokens.
So that gives people, you know, the being part of the process from day one.
And after that, over time, we'll see how this how this evolves.
Are people going to have larger delegations or they going to have smaller ones?
Are they going to feel, you know, really vested in the project or not?
So, you know, it's Dows are always evolving.
So we'll see how the delegations evolves as well.
Yeah.
I'm fascinated by that, how the delegations are going to evolve.
Some delegates have already mentioned that they feel a weight on their shoulders or they
feel a heavier responsibility when it comes to voting.
Others say it's not going to change the way I vote.
I'm going to vote with the same principles and how each delegate kind of decides for
themselves what they want to do with that voting power.
I'm really interested to see how that works within the ecosystem.
Have you had to sign any additional agreements outside of the Code of Conduct?
No, I believe the Code of Conduct was the only one.
Okay.
Yep.
And that's a pretty consistent answer across the board.
And so, Hervé, we've talked through so much and your history, how you want to approach
the delegation process, building an East meets West mentality across three continents, what
steps you do and don't support, and having an open mind to see what the different community
interests, where it lies.
And so we just went through all of the questions I want to hit for a delegation.
There was one final thing I want to go over with you if you have the time.
Something that I saw as I was reading through the articles about you watching Crypto Banter
and YPO Art Network, do you have the time to go through it?
Sure.
So, here's something that I found was fascinating as I was watching your interviews and articles
was I was surprised to see just how early on you mentioned the metaverse.
And I guess less surprising now that I understand your connection and how early you went into
Decentraland.
But what struck me was that, like in the Coin Telegraph article by Elias, you talked about
there are blue chips in metaverse land and like traditional real estate, it will depend
on the income generated with it.
Later on in the article you talk about how your passion on building on top of Bitcoin
with BRC20s and ordinals.
And when you're speaking with Crypto Banter, you think that the long term vision is seeing
the virtual reality and the metaverse is where people will be spending a lot of time.
And then in YPO Art Network, you talked about being interested in art in the metaverse.
And then you went into how there are the two different types of asset classes on the non-fungible,
one being virtual real estate and how having that virtual gallery to show virtual art,
you need virtual real estate to accomplish that.
But I start seeing a common thread of how your position is that virtual reality, virtual
real estate is where a lot of people will be spending time in the future.
And also I read your 2019 article or the 13 reasons to buy Bitcoin.
Can you tell me more about why that's such a common thread or what you see there to where
in almost every video I've seen and more than that, you mentioned the metaverse and its
importance in the long term?
Yeah, I think it touches something that I actually recently understood why.
And I understood it when I did.
So I did the one on one interview of Yatsu at Paris Blockchain Week on the main stage.
And one of the questions that I asked him is why among the 540 companies that are part
of the portfolio of Animoka, were the two largest subsidiaries, Sandbox and Darewise,
are both French companies?
It feels that the odds are very low that your two biggest companies among 540 are both the
same nationality from the same city with the same type of founder with the same pedigree.
And he said something very interesting, which I think hit the nail on the head.
He said, you know, French people have the capacity to imagine things that don't exist.
That's why they're the leader in luxury.
The reason why France is the home of luxury is we understand that the perceived value
that a bottle of Dom Perignon champagne is worth $300 because of the value, the romanticism
that is created around it.
And I think that the reason why my transition from often people are surprised, it says,
well, you went from physical good to virtual goods.
And thinking about it, it's the exact same thing.
You know, when you work in luxury goods, you know, you have your cost, but the value of
the consumer is completely different.
In fact, the main or the only don'ts when you work in a luxury goods company is talking
about the price, because if you talk about the price, that means you did something wrong
before.
The price shouldn't be an issue because you should have created so much value around it.
And there's no prices attached to like like you go into an air May bag to get in the store.
I did not realize that.
So when you go to Hermes and your goal going in is not to know the price is to get on the
wait list, see how deep you are on the wait list.
The price doesn't matter when you go to a Louis Vuitton stores all over the world.
You ask for the price of the wallet.
They have to unwrap it and look inside the little tag that says, you know, eight hundred
dollars for the wallet and no discounts, no negotiations.
And you know, you're lucky if that's the only wallet that is left in the store to actually
to actually make it.
But what I what I realized through that was that it is actually the reason that the reason
why the founder of the image became the two richest.
And that's also a little known fact.
The two richest people in the world last year, men and women, were both French and they were
both creating luxury goods.
So it shows that the cost and the perception is completely different.
And when you I think the reason why I understood, you know, the million dollar NFT that goes
for 69 million is because I felt it was the exact same thing in the real world.
You know, that when you go to the Louis Vuitton Museum in Paris, you know, you have Monet
paintings all over that are worth 100 million dollars.
But you don't say, well, it's a piece of wood with, you know, a few paint brushes.
You understand that this is the value around it.
So I think that's why the transition was kind of seamless.
I think that's why the transition was, hey, I understand to solve a problem.
And you know, the value of Bitcoin is going to go up because I really I looked at it more
about the size of the problem that it's solving and I never put a cap to it.
And yeah, and I think that's the case of a lot of the French founders of these companies
who are doing well in Web3 is that they understand that the cost and the perceived value.
I think I'm just now grappling with connecting the dots in my own brain right now processing.
I don't think I've ever quite thought of it that way.
You looked at the size of the problem and you never put a cap to it.
I think that's probably similar to how I got into crypto as well.
When I saw Bitcoin, I saw the size of the problem, you know, the unbanked, the debanked,
the thing that you solve with your mother in Venezuela, trying to get her some money
and having the issue of somewhat destabilized, but you know, not as stable of an environment
to where it made it challenging and how you solve that in an afternoon, sending her Bitcoin
instead.
The size of the problem and not putting a cap to it.
And I think it relates also to tokens.
We say, you know, is it more important for a token to have a utility or a community?
And the reality, if your token doesn't have an actual utility, that means it doesn't have
any cap to it.
So that's why we see Doge coming to a hundred billion dollars market cap without a utility
or rather a different utility that's around fund and call and et cetera, rather than some
other projects that have a utility and that are valued like a traditional take business
at lower multiples.
So I think that that element, what I saw when you sell luxury goods is actually the exact
same mindset.
We don't think about a Louis Vuitton bag, about the price of the leather, we think about
what is the joy that it will bring me by having it.
I will end with this.
One time I was with colleagues and we were speaking to people about, you know, selling
bottles in a restaurant for a very high amount.
And we asked them, well, how are you able to sell bottles for 10 times the multiple?
And the person said, we don't negotiate with good times.
And I think that what they're selling, the value of the bottle is the value of good times.
And often that can be priceless.
I think that's a great place to end.
Thank you for exploring that topic with me.
I walked away from that with, we don't negotiate with good times.
That's a good one.
But seeing the size of the problem without a cap, I think that is the right way to connect
those dots.
Hervé, is there anything you'd like to part with or say to the SanFam community before
we end today?
That was amazing.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been an hour and a half and it felt like it just flew by.
I'm very excited about embarking with that delegation.
And not only I hope to meet everybody on Metaverse, but also meet everybody in real life.
So thank you again for having me.
Yeah, likewise.
The pleasure was mine.
One thing I wanted to end with on our note here was there are places which SanFam gathers,
and I'll send this to you as well as a message, but you know of Discord and the DAL Discussion
Channel, the Sandbox DAL forums, there's Twitter of course, and YouTube is basically Sandbox
DAL's YouTube, mine, and then SanFam Cafe.
That's been a long standing one by my PXX Master.
But where people gather during the week is on Mondays, Mochaverse Hall has a space they
do on Saturdays Bulls on the Block, which you're probably familiar with as a delegation,
one of the OG delegations for Apecoin.
Also many SanFam gather there on Saturdays.
Monday through Friday, I'm sure you're familiar with Coffee with Captain, you've heard of,
so they sometimes speak about SanFam.
And I suppose your connection there will also make a pretty nice introduction.
If you're able to speak there.
And then Whale Members, one of the largest landowners within Sandbox is Whale Members,
and they have a natively digital Twitter space on Tuesdays.
So something where you can also advocate for the East West delegation where SanFam will
typically gather in those places.
I think they would really, I think many of them would enjoy and benefit from hearing
what you're trying to accomplish and then join you in that endeavor.
So something I wanted to briefly touch on before we end here.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you so much for your time.
I really appreciate speaking with you.
And everyone, this is Urve Lorin.
He is a storied history across multiple Web3 and Web2.
Starting from Louis Vuitton to ApecoinDAO Special Counsel, one of the OG Bitcoin miners
when it all kicked off this grand experiment here in Web3, looking to create an East meets
West delegation across the three continents of Europe, Asia, and the Americas to come
to a unanimous decision where dialogue is fruitful, positive, and all he has to do is
just reflect the will of the delegation because we've all arrived at a coordinated and well
synced decision.
Urve, thank you for your time.
Appreciate it very much.
Thank you.
All right, Sam Fam, we're out.