Hello everyone Sandel Podcast number 45, 45 episodes since May 28th.
That's that's how much content the sandbox Tao has been generating for the the Sand
Fam community.
And today we're continuing our mini series on the lessons from other Tao's.
We've heard from 8coin Tao, we've heard from city Tao, and now we are going to hear from
Bankless Tao, now called Black Flag Tao, and the lessons and the different things that
we can learn from them.
I have Rowan, True Cat, and Zeefi here.
Welcome everybody.
Thanks for having us.
Hey thanks.
So the scope of the talk today is it is a meet and greet with our illustrious guests
and a learning opportunity, things that went well, things that didn't go well, things to
watch out for, things that we can that we can incorporate ourselves into our our own
ecosystem.
Disclaimer is that nothing, nothing said today is financial legal advice, nothing we say
is to be taken as that.
And I do not represent the sandbox game or the sandbox Tao foundation.
Rowan, True Cat, Zeefi, please tell me do you represent the the Black Flag Tao now?
Is that the the way to say that?
I would say yes.
We're not official spokespeople I guess you would say.
Okay, so there are community members of the...
Yeah.
Got it.
Alright, everyone's head nodding.
Okay.
When I won't say the word SIP too much, but we will say the word Tao, which means to centralize
autonomous organization.
When I say the word SanFam, I'm talking about the sandbox community who participate in the
people products and purpose of the sandbox ecosystem.
Do you all over in Black Flag Tao?
Do you have a like a different way you call family like we say sandbox family SanFam?
Not yet.
Not yet?
Okay, working on it.
Alright.
So the ecosystem...
For a while there we would be TaoFam.
We used to share it in bankless Tao to pay Tao.
Ba dog Tao strong Tao yet.
Alec Tao.
I like that.
introduced to tao.
So scoreboard and checkbook have not moved yet because we just implemented the delegation
system.
And the TaoAdmin team has been working on that.
And we'll return back to SIPs, important proposals here in the next week.
We have three guests today.
As I mentioned C FPS Rowan and true cat all are part of the what's called The Transition
C chocolates.
the Bankless DAO to the Black Flag DAO. And let's get into some introductions. Z-Fy, let's start with
you. Please give us a little bit about who you are. Sure. Excuse me. I joined Bankless DAO back
in November of 21. So it's been three years now as we're coming up on this transition here to Black
Flag. I started the organization, gosh, it was an attempt at like, is this the next thing? Is this
the future of work? And that's what drew me to the DAO space in general. And how I approached it was
like a two-pronged kind of approach. I tried to bring skills that I had already to the DAO.
And that's what I jumped into, like the education department and operations.
And then I tried to find new information on skills that I didn't know. And that's where I
dipped into Audio Visual Guild. So it was just kind of a immersion. And I've been in every corner of
the DAO since then and looking forward to the reboot here in the Black Flag DAO. Thank you,
Z-Fy. Rowan. Yeah. So I've been around pretty much as long as Z-Fy was an original member of
the DAO when it was first created by the Bankless LLC folks, Ryan and David. I wasn't as involved
initially just because life, you know, prevented me from getting involved, but I was lurking for
a few months and then early in 2022. Yeah, right. Like you got to learn. And I would say
on that note, anyone interested in DAOs, there's a fairly steep learning curve. Like it's kind of a,
it's a novel way to organize people, self-organize communities. So yeah, it was an interesting
experience for sure. And what drew me there was, you know, I was a long-time listener of the
Bankless podcast that Ryan and David host. And I was really attracted to sort of the ethos that
they espoused of decentralization and, you know, it's in the name like Bankless, go Bankless.
You know, we can, we have the technology available to us to empower individuals over institutions,
especially in the financial realm now. So, you know, power, money is power. And I was interested
in contributing to whatever that meant. So it was exciting. And yeah, my contributions to
the iteration known as Bankless DAO were largely in ops and now with the Transition Council.
And, you know, I think, I think the three of us were pretty much always involved in governance,
to some extent. I mean, I won't speak for Z-Fi or True, but those, you know, those types of
contributions aren't necessarily roles in a lot of DAOs. So yeah, I think ops reflects the sort of
role-based contributions that I've made and now with Transition Council.
Gotcha. And so you said you're in the core coordination and ops department? Is that it?
Yeah, it was. It was the Operations Department. Yeah.
And now Transition Council.
Yeah. The Operations Department doesn't exist anymore. It may in the future or another.
Yeah. And Z-Fi, did you say you were in the AV
department and also what other one? I started out in education and AV,
and then kind of expanded into ops and some government governance stuff and pretty much
anything else. I just was hungry. Tried to learn everything.
Went from a skill set you knew in education to a skill set you wanted to learn in AV.
Correct. Got it.
And True. True Cat. Awesome name by the way.
Thank you. Yeah, look, I joined in at the end of August in 2021. I probably would have
lurked for a lot longer, but I actually, the people who know me know that I tend to spot
mistakes quite easily. And so I actually spotted something that I felt I needed to speak up about.
It was they're holding like a design logo competition for Academy and they put one of
the wrong finalists through to the final vote. And I was like, oh, and I had actually...
Not on my watch....which didn't get through.
And that was fine. But I spoke up because I was like, oh, hold on. I think you've miscounted.
So that is what sort of launched me into the DOW. And I was part of Design Guild through that.
AV Guild. I held some roles there. I was also in Research Guild. I was a strong part of Writers
Guild. I contributed to Ox. A fellow writer.
On and off. And yeah, and speaking of skill sets, you kind of realize you had like, I've
had a reputation since I joined the DOW of being a good editor. I don't have any editing training
or anything like that, but I just spot detail. So yeah, so I've contributed across a range of
places in the DOW and yeah, it's become a second home.
And when did you get involved in crypto? Around that same time. I hadn't been exposed
to it. I had a very short run in the couple of months prior to joining the DOW. I was kind of
listening to some podcasts and seeing things that I was interested in. I always thought that the
first time I heard about a DOW, I thought it was really a bunch of just very anonymous people
not interacting with each other and just voting on smart contract proposals. And so it was
astounding to me how human Bankless DOW actually was when I got there. And I love that.
And I want to write that down. It was astounding how human
the DOW was. Very human, very human interactions. That's a good way to phrase that.
And I think that persists. Like I think that's something that persists today. You know, it's
very, it's a really interesting community. I can't say that I, you know, I'm not comparing
and contrasting because I haven't been involved in a lot of DOWs, but there are great vibes,
great people. Yeah. I traveled to Denver earlier this year to meet a whole bunch of people from
Bankless DOW, Black Flag DOW now. And I didn't know that I would get to meet them ever, but
the opportunity came and I was able to attend East Denver. And, you know, the hugs that you,
and we've talked about this a lot, even just people living in America, meeting each other
for the first time, but for me to travel from Australia and meet all of these people who I've,
you know, been in calls with for so long, it was instant hugs, instant comfort with each other.
Just really, really great lifelong friends. That's cool. I like that. That's pretty special.
It's like, if you've been a gamer for a long time, you might have
felt the same camaraderie, that instant connection where like, hey!
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I myself have only known about DOW since May 28th of this year.
I didn't even know what a DOW was until the sandbox. DOW said, surprise, here we are.
And it's been on a journey ever since then. We are learning a lot as fast as we can.
You've been DOW filled.
Thank you. So let's get the first one. So Bankless DOW, which short for, when we say B-DOW,
if we ever say that, that means Bankless DOW. And then Black Flag DOW, I'm just going to say BF DOW.
So from the timeline that I've been able to piece together, in May of 2021, that's when it was
founded by David and Ryan with 35,000, and I'm quoting just from what I pulled from websites and
everything else, founded it with a 35,000 airdrop to Bankless Subs as a separate entity from the
Bankless LLC. That's important for what comes later. So November, 2023, Bankless DOW proposes,
submits a proposal in Arbitrum DOW. November 2023, also Bankless LLC podcast occurs with
David and Ryan. Then September in 2024, there's the Bankless podcast episode, which is what
originally I listened to first with Z-Fy and Rowan articulating what happened on their side.
And then 2024, sometime in 2024, starts the reorg timeline, of which as a fellow PM, I am super,
so impressed. Whoever put this thing together, this reorg timeline was a pro.
So it looks like everything starts about May-ish, is when all this temperature checks start,
and just phenomenal. If it's a team effort, y'all are doing phenomenal when it comes to
articulating what steps you have to take, and it's awesome. And then sometime in the future,
there's a transition to Black Flag. Z-Fy is sitting over there looking very modest.
Z-Fy? I have you to thank for the presentation of it and the maintenance. Like I said, as a
fellow program manager, I think that it was so clear to me where to work in questions and
research, and now transitioning sometime in the future to BlackFlagCollective.org. Did I miss
anything in terms of context? I'm sure there's a ton of stuff I missed.
Yeah, I do want to make a small correction, because Black Flag Collective is actually
not Black Flag Dow. Okay, let me just delete that right off the slide.
Well, you don't need to delete it, I don't think. It's part of the Dow, but it's not the Dow.
So go ahead, Drew, I think you were going to elaborate.
Yeah, so one of our community members is by his own admission, sometimes impatient,
and he's been very keen to champion the Black Flag brand, and he has really wanted to get going on
some IRL events. And so he started the Black Flag Collective a little while ago, and that website,
BlackFlagCollective.org, is actually what he has set up in order to, he's got a pull together going
where people can contribute, and then they vote on the proceeds of the pull together going towards
IRL events. And so that's what Black Flag Collective is doing. And that's kind of
been happening in parallel to our transition process in the Dow.
Got it. And so we're...
We are Black Flag Dow, and we will have a website soon on that domain.
Got it, got it. So okay, no website yet. So I didn't miss anything important then.
That's right. So you're organizing through Discord and through, I think you still have the podcast,
and I just see a new episode come out not long ago. And...
The Making Bank podcast?
Maybe, maybe. Now I'm getting all twisted up in my brain.
Was it Z-Fi and I?
Yes, yes, that's the one.
That's Making Bank, and that is hosted by a fella named Drost. So, I mean, I guess for context,
there, in the iteration of Bankless Dow, there were, we focused on sort of like a permissionless
approach to projects or initiatives. There were permissions around securing funding, but
you could pretty much do whatever you wanted to do under the name of the Dow, which was both great
and not so great as we'll get into, and what ultimately precipitated some of where we ended up
now. But all to say, Drost created Making Bank back when Bankless Dow was a thing, and he has
carried it on since. So it is one podcast associated with and started sort of within Bankless Dow,
but there are others, just as there are other sort of, you know, newsletters and
general sort of media output.
Got it. Okay. So about when, Z-Fi or anyone else, about when do you expect the transition to
BFDOW to conclude?
We're hoping as soon as possible. I think we...
Soon as possible. Okay.
Like the end of the year as our guideline, as our goalpost, but we've had some delays along the way,
so it may extend into 2025.
Okay. Got it. All right. Let's get right into the...
I sent you our new logo in our discourse chat, in case you'd like to share it.
I would love to. It's an easy thing to...
Thanks for doing that, Drew.
All right. Very good. Very good.
Okay. Black Flag Dow logo. And here we go.
Let's just resize this a little bit. Let's get into that first question.
The purpose of BDOW versus Black Flag Dow or BFDOW. So BDOW, what I found, I just copy pasted from
either a news article or website. What's it? Oh, it was the Google page that I found the notion
that BDOW, its mission was media and social Dow onboarding 1 billion people to crypto,
or that was the goal. Is that... Is there any... Just start just comments all around?
Close? Did I get close?
I think that's pretty accurate for the old one.
Yep. For the old one, for sure. And I mean, I would qualify anything that we say
in the sense that we may have been around when that was established, but I don't know to what
extent we were a part of that decision. I feel like a lot of the sort of mission,
vision and values were largely defined by people closer to Bankless LLC. I mean, it started,
it was sort of the brainchild of that group. And people obviously were very interested,
like myself and the three of us here. And I think that's the way BDOW was
structured. But yeah, that was... And I feel like that is sort of... That's a spin off of
maybe what Ryan and David were similar to what Ryan and David were trying to achieve
through their podcast. But yeah, that's more or less...
That permissionless approach that you were commenting on earlier?
In what sense?
When you said that there was a permissionless approach to... I think you were attributing that
to BDOW or is it now Black BF DOW? BDOW, yeah.
Okay. Yeah, the idea was that there would be lots of media nodes. And in the original Genesis
proposal, Bankless LLC talked about being a media node of the DOW with their podcast. And so the
idea was that under a headless brand, people would be able to produce media in all forms and education
to further the Bankless mission. And it used to often get shorthanded to onboarding the next
billion people to crypto, which is something that a lot of people use. The one that you read is
actually the one that was always established as permission and vision. But certainly what attracted
to me to the DOW was that education and media angle, because I was... In the very short time
I'd been exposed to this world, I was worried that if I wasn't technical, I didn't necessarily have a
home. So... Yeah.
I definitely can sympathize with that perspective for sure.
And so there was a lot of effort in DOW at that time to provide information to people who were
new, the normies of who are dipping their toes into crypto and maybe don't even know the phrase
not your keys, not your crypto. Help people understand what this whole space is about and
maybe what they can gain from it and definitely what they can learn. So Z-Fi spent a lot of time
in the education department. Maybe he can speak to some more of their efforts, but obviously there
was a lot of outreach in terms of media, the various media nodes, podcasts, newsletters, and so on.
And then there were also educational components, whether it was the Project Bankless Academy,
which is still going as far as I know. I thought that was awesome too when I saw that. Bankless Academy.
The Academy is great. Very intuitive product. Really cool. So what would you say the purpose is now
that you can articulate for BF DOW that's been agreed upon or in the works?
It's less of an onboarding focus this time. It's more of vibing and thriving within these
decentralized systems. If you're into this space, if these are things that connect with you,
we want you to come and explore tools with us. It's a little bit less directed and more of a vague
welcoming purpose. I can read you the one that we decided on if you like. I just grabbed it.
It's to build an on-chain community of change makers focused on vibing, thriving, and exploring
decentralized systems. Thank you. Vibing, thriving, and what was the last part? Exploring.
Exploring. To build an on-chain community of change makers focused on vibing, thriving, and exploring
decentralized systems. But Rowan, you're going to speak then. Sorry I interrupted you.
No, that's perfect. I think it's important that we just had it verbatim for clarity. But what I was
going to say is, I think we realized that we don't need to recreate the educational components that
already exist. There are on-rems to crypto and if those on-rems want to succeed, they will build
educational components around them or as part of their use. So we don't need to rebuild those
things and we also don't necessarily need to fill in the gaps where there are components of
information or education that are missing. I think what we realized is, especially with the people who
have sort of stuck around since we transitioned, since we began our transition, and I'd be interested
to hear what Z-Fi and True have to say, but for me it has been sort of the realization that we are
as much a community as anything else and we don't necessarily need to define ourselves around a
product in order to exist. It's easier for sure to do that. Like if you have a bankless podcast
and a bank token, something that exists already that has some tangible traction in the space,
it's a lot easier for sure, but it's not necessary. So what Z-Fi was saying before is,
I think we're a little bit less concretely defined by intention and it opens things up
a little bit more. And as we're speaking, the term sandbox actually is a good one. Not that we're
going to try and take that from you, but it's funny that we're on Lenzer's podcast, from sandbox
down we're basically talking about creating more or less a sandbox for a community to vibe and
thrive. Yeah, that did not escape me. But I think it sounds like you're very much in the business of
staying nimble almost. It's staying open and flexible to where maybe a mission will develop
in the future, maybe not, but the whole vibing, thriving, and exploring, I can definitely see
that start to take hold on what you've been articulating. For your role specifically,
what does the transition council do? What would you say you do here?
I love this question. All right, so the community tasked us or wanted to see a group of people
take the reins on this reorganization direction, and we struggled to do it all individually,
and even once the TC, once the transition council was formed, part of what we started with was
getting feedback from the community, putting surveys on the forum to determine what are our
collective values, where are our overlaps, what purposes would you like to see this organization
achieve or work toward? And the biggest thing that I noticed up front, one, that it was going to be
a hard lift, but two, is that everybody just wanted to be together. We all knew that we wanted to be
together doing a thing, and we're all looking at each other like, all right, what thing are we
supposed to do? So the people in the community almost came first. Like Rowan was saying, those
who have stuck around this long from bankless, even as the DAO has kind of declined over the years,
the people who are still left are very passionate, and we've gotten to know each other, and we like
working with each other, and that's why we want to reboot with this great foundation of people and
skills that we have, and form a new organization in a new direction.
Yeah, there was definitely a bit of an identity crisis that took place. Again, because if you
don't have a product or an idea to which you can adhere as a community and build around, then
it's harder, it's much, much harder to define what you're doing, and I think we really struggled
with that. So the creation of the Transition Council was to consolidate effort and authority
to some extent, to start moving these things through, because, you know, maybe we'll touch on
it a little bit later in the episode, but I had a quick look at the governance structure of Sandbox
DAO, and I mean, every DAO, every community has their governance structure, and I think
every community has their governance structure, but when you have this identity crisis like
we did as a community, I think we lost Z-Fi. Oh, it's back. Welcome back. But yeah, I guess,
you know, when we had this identity crisis, and we, you know, we were struggling to figure out,
first of all, what to do and then how to do it, we recognized that there were limitations to our
governance structure and, you know, the procedures and operations that we had in place.
So we had to change them, but the existing governance structure was, you know, kind of
arduous, you know, like there was a lot of discussion, and I think in a good way, you know,
like we want to get, it's decentralized, so we want to get people's input before, you know,
we charge ahead and, you know, implement things and, you know, pray that we don't break things.
But that meant that there was a lot of inertia in the community. So someone had to
take this problem of one, what are we doing now? Who are we collectively? And then how do we move
forward? How do we do this thing that I don't even know what we're doing with the existing
governance processes that need to change? It was just this bag of a bunch of baggage, you know,
from the community, and you couldn't address one thing without addressing a whole bunch of other
things. So I think we realized that, you know, we need some kind of consolidated effort and authority
to move things forward, and that's why the Transition Council was created. So we're focusing on,
as Zeefai mentioned initially, redefining our mission, vision, and values, getting input from
the community. We have got input from the community in terms of what do we want to do? Who are we?
Where do we want to go? And now we're working on a rebrand. So how do we want to sort of convey
ourselves to the rest of the space in the world? And then we'll work on, you know, what comes next?
So how do we want to structure our membership to this community? How do we want to,
what changes and how do we want to implement governance structure? Learning from our
past. And I don't, I'm careful not to say mistakes, because I don't think they are mistakes
necessarily, but we do have to take into account where we were and how we got here.
Learning opportunities. Always, always.
True Cat, what about you?
I'm curious, Zeefai or True, do you guys have anything to add to those thoughts?
I just wanted to add that, yeah, I mean, you're right to say there was a period of inertia and
you skipped over it, Lanza, when you said like that happened in November with the
Arbitrum proposal, and then six months later, the Transition Council was formed. But during that
six months, there was, yeah, definitely a period of identity crisis, I guess you could call it. I was
a big part of Bankless Publishing, which we almost immediately stopped using the name Bankless,
and that publishing and therefore kind of shut down that whole stream of activity. And, you know,
it was, it was a period where we just really needed to figure out what we wanted and, and
the fact that we came, you know, we stayed together during community calls during that entire time,
and people were just able to kind of share what it was that they valued. It was a good period,
and I'm glad I was part of it. But we did need at some point to take the reins and actually move
things forward, because we could still be just talking about what we might become if we hadn't,
as a community, decided that we would just consolidate down to the point where we were
going to consolidate down into a group of people who would, were willing to commit to the time it
took. So we had to, as Zeefai mentioned, you know, do some cleanup of things that no longer were,
you know, up to date, and then also kind of try to move us forward and make decisions
about the future. And we just recently, even, you know, after several months of activity in the
transaction, in the Transition Council, we, we held a snapshot vote to actually ratify that
making authority because we, you know, ran into some issues around do we actually have
the right to make decisions for this community going forward, and it turns out we do.
I saw that. I saw that. That's what I was trying to join the DAL. Like, I need to,
I need to join the DAL so I can vote. And I missed it, and it was all over after that.
Right. The other thing that was occurring to me this morning, though, is people always talk about...
I'll look forward to it, by the way.
Yeah, good, good. People talk about, you know, will the governance or will the system scale up?
But I think we also need to be conscious of will it scale back down? And so we found, you know,
one of the things with having a small group of people left was how we could actually bring,
you know, the decision-making authority back to them, or at least, and even just enable them to
have the authority because maybe it was, you know, always set to be a bigger group that was
making the decisions. And so, yeah, governance has to scale both ways.
Yeah, that's the flexibility you were speaking to earlier. And so was it just the name that you had
to... I know there's a spiderweb of activities that have to happen, but was it just the name and that
was the impetus behind most of this? I think that was our biggest catalyst. Yeah, we needed to
determine if we wanted to continue using the bankless branding. We decided ultimately we did
not. And then making that break in the rebranding with all the socials and the accounts.
So it wasn't taken from you? You decided to just continue using it?
I don't know if that's as clear and I think maybe that depends on who you ask. But yeah,
I did come down to the brand and fundamentally you have an LLC, like a company that exists
in a jurisdiction, you know, subject to laws and, you know, whatever, everything that comes with
that. And then you have a DAO, which is global and permissionless, largely permissionless.
And there was, you know, by and large permissionless use of the brand. And I think
Bankless LLC realized that and said, this could be like a big problem for us, specifically for our
brand, which they had taken the time to build. And so I totally respect that. There were sort of,
you know, there's so much history there that I'm trying to be as objective as possible.
Sure. Sure.
Right. But, you know, it would be framed as the bankless DAO was created as an experiment,
as a headless brand, as True mentioned previously. But I don't think that anyone really had the
foresight, especially because DAOs were just, you know, coming on the scene and becoming very,
very big. Like it was DAO, I don't know what season, DAO summer, you know, people were vibing in
DAOs. Very, very exciting. Lots of energy, lots of people getting involved. People weren't thinking
necessarily about the future when there are people all over the world using this brand in ways that
maybe the bankless LLC folks weren't aligned with, or maybe that could even get them in trouble.
So, you know, they have jobs, their livelihood is attached to this thing that they've built,
this brand that they've built. And all of a sudden people are using it in ways that,
you know, it's not about control necessarily, but it's about making sure that it doesn't come back
to them in any kind of negative way. So I get that. And then there was discussion about how do we move
forward? How do we sort of, I don't know if the word is disambiguate, but, you know, how do we,
how do we consolidate what is bankless LLC versus what is bankless DAO? And by that point,
bankless DAO had grown so far so fast that, I mean, I'm curious, how's he finding true what you
guys think. But when I looked at the problem of administering use of a brand that had already been
used permissionlessly for years, it didn't seem like that was something that you could roll back.
And it wasn't at least not very easily. Yeah, I think we did, excuse me, they did give us an
option to work forward with some permissioned use of the brand name where we would be given permission
by LLC if we wanted to use it. And that was just something that the community, I guess, ultimately
didn't want to do. It was a very unfortunate back and forth, but like Rowan said, I see why
bankless LLC had to do what they did. And I understand it, I mean, from a legal perspective,
they had to reduce their liability. So we just worked with what we had. And unfortunately,
that meant we had to basically spin off. What was the thing that you're able to say that was done?
Oh, the thing that was like the catalyst for HQ. I understand like the arbitrable proposal,
but I mean, the action that was taken that then became the catalyst. If it wasn't like you didn't
get a letter saying thou shalt not use this anymore, what was it that led to your voluntary,
involuntary decision to stop the transition? I don't know that I can point to a specific example.
There was some communication back and forth between HQ and the DAO, but it was kind of like
it was through a couple of individuals who were transmitting the information.
Okay, so this was a dialogue saying, hey, this is an issue for us. Can you please help us find a
solution? And through a series of conversations, hard and otherwise, the DAO came to the conclusion
that we want to change to BFDAO. And then the transition council came after that.
Look, I'll say it. I'll say it. There was a lot of, there was a storm on Twitter.
Oh, they're both laughing.
I watched the podcast episode and I read through all those tweets and oh my gosh.
Yes, it was absolutely horrible for David and Ryan to have to deal with that on their Thanksgiving.
I fully appreciate that they were absolutely blindsided by it. But their response was to
very much push the DAO to arm's length and try to disassociate from it as much as they could.
In that moment, that was their response. And so it became very clear to the community that that
was actually how they felt about the DAO. Okay, that's how I feel about it.
Yeah, no, 100% back there. I'd say that's accurate.
And so, you know, we didn't feel we could go forward knowing that.
I'm speaking for myself, not for the DAO, but that's how I see it.
Again, not to, that doesn't mean I don't understand their response. They were absolutely
blindsided. But I think, you know, it became evident that actually there was not going to be
that support going forward.
The reflex response was, oh, no, this isn't our problem.
Yeah.
Okay, so that's not from that angle.
Yeah, I see. So the vacuum was created.
Kind of a distance.
A distance with no direction.
They weren't necessarily fulfilling leadership. That's right. He did say that they weren't
necessarily fulfilling a lot of leadership roles. And that's why they didn't really know about it.
Never were. And I don't think ever intended to. They weren't really a leadership position in the
DAO.
No. I think they intentionally, I mean, they held, as part of the Genesis team of the DAO,
they held a very large number of tokens.
And as a result, they excluded themselves from, you know, any decision-making and governance
actions within the DAO. It was, you know, I think 100%. And that's why, so I mean, there is sort of
like intent and outcome or impact, right? And I think the intent was honest and, you know, innocent
and a DAO was created with the intent to include as many people as possible, because this was,
you know, one of the fastest ways to scale communities and ideas.
But again, back to that foresight of how do we, you know, does permission-less-ness actually work
in this environment? And if it doesn't, how do we sort of retain control on the aspects of brand and
identity that we need to so that, you know, our, and I'm speaking on sort of, I'm trying to imagine
what it was like for David and Ryan, especially during that Twitter storm where they were like,
oh, wow, all of a sudden this is way, way bigger and maybe a lot worse in some aspects than we
realized. And for sure, I get it. You want to, you want to disassociate from the DAO. And a lot of
what they said was true for sure. But I think what, what maybe they forgot and, you know,
perhaps to this day haven't really acknowledged is the social contracts that exist or that existed
when they created the DAO, it was always, I think from their perspective, considered an experiment,
but there were real people around the world building on the bankless brand.
So there was a tremendous benefit to the bankless brand from the, like, by virtue of the existence
of the DAO. The Twitter storm, I think highlighted the flip side of that. Right. So like you have
tremendous benefit, but you also have the potential to be, you know,
Perseverance, like serious damage to your brand if it's not used properly.
So when, so when they disassociated themselves, there were people in the community who were,
you know, our feelings were hurt for one, definitely, because this is something we'd invested in
for a very long time. But people were also financially hurt because, right, because this
had an impact on the bankless token or the bank token, I should say. And, you know, we can,
there's, that is a rabbit hole into itself, but I think, you know, there's a lot of nuance to this.
And again, trying to be as objective as possible, recognizing that, that there are sort of two sides,
two, two interested sides in this problem.
So bankless, the public backlash to our return DAO proposal led to bankless HQ distancing itself
from the bankless DAO, which led to community, DAO community dialogue about how to proceed
and that's kind of where the theory of permissionless experiment meant the reality
of permissionless experiment. And out of that came the decision to transition.
Am I close? Yeah, yeah, I would say that's a good summary. And, you know, transition, I would say,
at that point, really just meant move away from the use of, or association with the bankless brand.
But the transition itself, you know, took, I mean, it's ongoing, right? Like the transition
council was created six months after that event and it's ongoing now. So yeah, it was,
we're talking about catalyst and sort of the events that followed.
That is a tough problem. Like you are facing the sort of tough problems that,
let's call it the real world, right? IRL, that major conglomerates and corporations have to face
with mergers and all sorts of breaking aparts. And I mean, you're talking about how do you unwind
corporations' portfolio and just really, really tough legal problems that qualified experts spend
full time doing. And here you have dedicated, passionate community members who are trying to
figure it out just like the rest of us. That's tough. Oh my gosh, that's tough.
It's even more complicated than that.
Thinking about like dismantling a business, for example, because it's also a social group. It's a
society, a little, you know, it's a mini society in a way too. So you're managing the organizational
structure as well as the social structure. It's a lot to juggle.
How to disassociate a nation from... Yeah, wow. So the government structure for BDAO versus BFDAO,
what I heard the term guilds, BDAO was described as a conglomerate of DAOs. I wasn't quite sure
what to make of that. Well, the old structure was mostly guilds, departments, and projects.
But we pretty much have no structure at this point. Everything consolidated just into basically DAO
general and the government structure. And so, you know, I think that's the way to do it.
We need to basically DAO general as we were working through this transition. So the black flag
DAO structure will be different. Membership structure will be different. But that's what
we're working on now. Okay, guilds, departments, and projects now is a BFDAO general.
Yep. And those were consolidated because they were, you know, they were largely DAO units that were
integrated to fulfill the purpose, you know, the mission and vision of the DAO. And with that
changing, their continued existence didn't make sense. So just, you know, very quickly, you talked
about like, I can't remember how you said it, but sort of like a loosely connected network of DAOs.
I think a conglomerate of DAOs. I think I took that quote from either David or Ryan. I think one
of them said that. Yeah. And I think that to some extent, makes sense. But it really depends on how
you define DAO. I mean, like the flagship was bankless DAO. And then, you know, if the Discord
server got, you know, too full, then, or it was hard. I mean, you should have seen the Discord
server at the time. It was huge. Like I've never seen a Discord server like that. And yeah. And so
if a project or a DAO unit got big enough, they would just split off and create their own Discord
server because it was easier to navigate. So I think people started to think, oh, well, maybe
that's another DAO. Like maybe that's a sub-DAO. You know, but this is all terminology. And I don't
know that it is important in the discussion. It's just kind of the way people were sense-making
the structure of this thing, this behemoth of a DAO that existed. Yeah. I've listened to
the 52 Pickup episode with you, Z-Fy, Rowan, and Drost. And I think at the time I couldn't
figure out who is who, by the way, because all I could hear were your voices. So I was like,
question mark said this, question mark said that. But at 42 minutes in, one of you noted creating a
working group. Excuse me. Was it? There we go. At 52 minutes in, one of you noted that when you
created working groups, those working groups created their own Discords and that ended up being a
double-edged sword. And what I think I inferred from that was that they created their own little
subculture or and they somehow were separated from the main unit just like happens in real life.
And then they create their own identity, which may have been conflicting with what you're going
after. I think double-edged swords probably a great way to put it. Yes, it allowed us to keep
the organization and the navigation a little bit more manageable, but it also resulted in projects
and departments sometimes just becoming their own little things and all these different groups
running as disconnected silos. We expanded very quickly. Yeah. Coordination failure, right? Like
it just, it was a way for, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Moloch. I've heard of it.
Yeah. I just took my DAO certification course with blockchain council and thank you very much.
And Moloch was one of the things that kept mentioning. It was kind of interesting. So
people characterize Moloch as the God of coordination failure. So as we created
more Discords and sort of we fractured the DAO out of necessity, out of an attempt to like sense-make
and be able to navigate the DAO. As Zeefi said, the result was siloing and a breakdown of
communication and ultimately coordination failures that were navigable. But it's,
you know, I think that's what was being referred to. And was, you can say, you can just say no to this
question. Did that lead to the proposal and Arbitrum going awry in a way?
No. If anything, that proposal was an illustration of the fact that all of those units were still
very capable of working together. In fact, we had a campaign just prior to that for optimism, which
was the predecessor almost to the Arbitrum proposal was various media producers within the DAO
working together to produce content. And that was a successful campaign and carried out, you know,
across all of the international media nodes and also, you know, producing content in,
you know, a number of different languages, including English. So if anything, that was
an illustration that we were still very able to work together and communicate together.
What happened with the Arbitrum proposal was that people on Twitter got hold of it. It was for quite
a lot of arb and decided that they would take their trolling out on that particular aspect of it and
blame David and Ryan, which David and Ryan had nothing to do with it. But yeah, it wasn't that
we weren't able to work successfully together. It was just that it became very sprawling and big and
I guess in a way, because we were still, all of those groups were still voting on DAO things.
You know, if you have structures in place or you don't, there are still factions that form.
And I guess some of those groups perhaps became factions and it became a little bit more difficult
to look at proposals as a group of individuals that became maybe a group of groups.
So got it. Okay. Yeah. And I read through the tweets and like, oh my gosh, this is what the
Twitter mob looks like. And y'all are getting the full end of it. Like, holy smokes. I mean,
it's reasonable to me. Everything seems fine. It wasn't an uninformed mob. Like Drew said,
it was, it was just, I mean, yeah, it was, it was people taking issue for the sake of taking issue
with something, you know, like it was, you know, they looked at it at a, at a situation and they
said, this could be construed in this very negative way. I'm going to run with it. Let's do it. Yeah.
Let's do it. You know, like I don't really care what the reality is. I'm just going to crap all
over these guys because I can. It's the internet. So 10 minutes earlier in the episode, again,
question mark said that creating a working group was one of the most effective things in a doubt.
I think Z-Fi, it might've been your voice. So was it the most effective thing because as,
as true as you're saying, or as Z-Fi, you were just saying that it kept things manageable
and how true you were saying that that proposal was a demonstration that you could still work
together. So it still worked in the end. Am I close? Yeah. I mean, working groups just allowed
people, you know, with similar interests and ideas to come together and actually make something
happen in a smaller group than, you know, because of that permissionless nature, if they needed
funding, obviously that went to the main Dow, but people could really just create things and,
and work on things without needing that kind of permission. So that's how we managed to spin up
newsletters and podcasts and things across the whole Dow. It was really just based on that working
group structure of like like-minded people going, yeah, let's do that. You know, got it. Okay.
Yeah. That may have been a drost comment. That sounds like it might've been a drost comment.
Oh, was it? Okay. So, so sorry, drost. I was trying very hard to keep track of who is who.
Yeah. That's really so much you can do with audio. Yeah. It's good. It's good to know that. I mean,
yeah. I think, I think probably also what, you know, it's, it's what True was saying in, in that
if you have a large group of people in, in a Dow, not everybody is going to be interested in doing
the same thing all the time. So if I'm interested in writing, I'm going to get together with other
people who are interested in writing. I'm going to secure the necessary permissions and funding
to produce something. And we're going to go and work on it over there. And, you know, the rest of
the Dow has given the green light for this group to work on this thing. So they don't need to be
involved anymore because the working group has been created rather than having the entire community
weigh on, weigh in on every aspect of it, which really, really slows things down. So working groups
are, I would say one thing that we've learned as a fundamental component of getting things done in
a Dow, they're, they can be super useful, very nimble, and yeah, very action oriented. True,
would, would you say that I've captured kind of what you were saying more or less accurately?
Very much. As usual, far more articulate.
Well, I don't know about that.
It's that fireplace in the background. It makes you very intensive.
All right, let's go with some as rapid fire as you all would like or, or not. Your vision in the
next six to 12 months for Blackfag Dow, where do you see it going?
Wow, hard to say.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, baby steps, but very intentional towards
a minimum viable product for membership and governance and maybe a token, but these
fundamentals sort of structures that a community can utilize to start building. We have a lot of
very passionate people, talented people in the community still, and we just need to create this
structure so that we can coordinate effectively and start working together to create whatever it
is we're going to create. And maybe that will be, as you said, maybe, you know, it'll be something
more specific as, you know, we develop some experience and maybe it won't be, maybe it'll be
very much like a sandbox and, you know, it'll be sort of a fertile ground for us to be able to
build a community around for whatever people want to work on and create together. I don't know, but
I think in the, in the short to medium term, that's, that would be my goal. My ideal outcome is
like a really, really good minimum viable product balancing that minimalist and viability to, you
know, provide the community with, with something that's functional, a governance and, and
membership structure to run with. So ultimately, whatever the transition council delivers for our
reboot, it won't be the last iteration. It won't be the last thing that we do. We want to be able
to deliver something that is workable. That's a good solid foundation. And then why I say it would
be difficult for me to guess what it's going to look like six to 12 months out is because ultimately
the community will take the reins at that point and they'll be able to determine where we want to
go, which tools do we want to use? We want to experiment with that platform or this platform.
So it's hard to say like specifics for me, what will look like, but I'd love to see more projects
popping up. I'd love to see that activity coming back. Those, those like organic groups being
formed to do a thing that aligns with the mission. We used to have it. And I think a lot of DAOs do
have it. And it's just like aligning the passion with the objective. We've got the people just a
matter of time. True. I totally agree. I think the most, you know, the thing that sustained us
over the last 12 months and the thing that will sustain us going forward is those conversations
that we have, those, you know, and it's not, that doesn't always mean that they're verbal calls,
conversations, because obviously we're in every time zone, but certainly just the conversations
that we have as a group, whether we're trying to work out, you know, the best way forward in
governance or we're jamming about the latest, you know, app or whatever, or just laughing together
and listening to some good music at the end of the community call. Those are the things that matter.
And that's why, you know, we've left it fairly broad. And that's what I hope is still really
strong in six months time. And that's the thing that will be the basis as CeFi said for those
organic kind of growths to come out and, you know, take us in new directions. Yeah. No,
that makes total sense. If you look, if you could look back, as you look back, what would you say
in BDAO things that worked well versus, well, I guess BFDAO is not fully online yet. So what's
something that worked out well with BDAO? Gosh, we had a lot of wins. We learned a lot of stuff,
but even if we learned things that we would maybe say in hindsight were hard or bad,
just the experience of going through all those learning experiences, we have so much information
now to build a new organization and a new social structure. The experience, I think,
is probably my biggest takeaway. Drew?
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, there was no one thing, I think. It was just what we did well
and what will continue to do well is community.
Well put. Rowan?
Yeah, I mean, people have joined this community and said, you know, this is kind of like
the Dowiest of DAOs, if that makes any sense. Yeah, yeah, it does. Right. And so, yeah, I would like,
I would like to see that. I would like to see us carry that forward. You know, I think that was,
that was probably the biggest win is, is community. And that's why we're focusing on it so much.
Because in the absence of a product or a purpose, we still had community, we still had these
connections. And we're still a group of people who are still working on it. And so, yeah,
we're a group of people who are engaged and, you know, want to work together to create something.
You know, and we're not, I think, in the context, right, in the context of crypto. And,
you know, we're not talking about creating like a factory for teddy bears or something. I mean,
maybe we will do that. But yeah.
Your secret heart.
Yeah. I want to bring the care bears back. No, I'm just kidding.
But it's worth saying too, right, we have, we often talk and we're actually in the transition
council thinking about, you know, how can we also recognise alumni from the Bankless Dow
community. And so, we still have a network of people across Web3 who have gone on to do
great things elsewhere in other communities and organisations across Web3 who very much consider
themselves alumni of BDOW. And, you know, that has been our strength. We may not have known it at the
time, but we are a strong network of people who know what BDOW is like. And you can't kill that.
And now that you're in BFDOW, I know it's still very new and emerging. What are things that you
see now that's working out well?
Does that need a fair question for me to ask?
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the transition council is the first example of things that
are working out well. You know, it is one of those working groups that we were talking about.
A small group of people focused on a problem or a set of problems with the initiative to
find those solutions.
Okay. Yeah, that's fine.
Yeah. The fact that the community then, you know, gave us a strong resounding, yes,
please go ahead and do this. That's the ultimate trust, right, is to put their faith in the six of
us to carry this forward and to make changes to the BanklessDOW existing constitution without
necessarily having to vote on every single aspect. And we've put our reputations on the
line for that. And we're very, very conscious of the fact that we carry the expectations of
the community through that process.
But with the PM tool like you have on Notion, I don't see any, I think you're going to come out
on top just fine.
Yeah, we are trying to be as transparent as possible.
Yeah. And yeah, well, it's accomplished even from a far outsider who didn't even know what
Bankless was until recently.
Awesome. That's meaningful. And I just want to add like, really, really driving that aspect of
community to, you know, I think even in the context of this recent vote, you were worse.
We're always trying to make sure that we have the necessary consensus or consent from the
community to do whatever we need to do. So it's that inclusivity. Now we're not going to be able
to satisfy everybody. And I say we more broadly than the transition council, we're a group of
people who are trying to build something. And yeah, the transition council is a subset of those, of
that community. And the same issue exists. You know, we're trying to ensure that we meet the
expectations of everybody. But we also want to, you know, to the greatest extent possible, make
sure that we're hearing from everybody, making sure that, you know, we're not doing something that,
I mean, it's one thing if somebody doesn't like it, but if it's, you know, fundamentally against
a value system, then, you know, we're going to, we want to hear from people because people make
up the community.
Spoken like a good transition council member.
We are being very careful.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's clear. You're approaching it with caution and wisdom. The sort
of wisdom you learn the hard way sometimes. And sometimes a lesson is what not to do next time.
Sometimes it'd be like that. What would you?
I'm also expressing my personal values. So I'm not speaking so much as a politician or a
representative of the transition council. But I mean, that's why I'm here. I'm here because of
people. I'm not here because of a technology or an app or, you know, to fill my bags. I'm here
because I, because the bankless mission resonated with me initially. And I want to carry that
forward somehow. I want to make, I would like to make the world better for individuals. I want to,
you know, I want to decentralize power and authority and I want to empower individuals. So
how do you do that? Well, you don't do that by focusing on an organization over individuals.
You do that by focusing on individuals, focusing on community.
What is something that you all would have done different? If you could.
I'm asking you to Monday morning quarterback yourselves.
I mean, hindsight is 2020, right? Like there's, there are so many things that,
that we could have done differently that would have resulted in perhaps more favorable outcomes.
You know, I think
I think, I mean, I'm tempted to say something like, you know, be more real, be more realistic about,
you know, things like emergence, you know, things are just going to work out. You know, we need
something then, you know, a group of people would just sort of manifest and take care of it.
Or, you know, I think, you know, I think we need to be more, be more realistic about, you know,
we need something then, you know, a group of people would just sort of manifest and take care of it.
Or, you know, permissionlessness works kind of full stop because I think we've realized that it doesn't
maybe, maybe yet, but those are, I think there are, are ideas or philosophies that the community
espoused in the last iteration of the Tao that were
very idealistic and served us in a lot of ways for sure. I mean,
you have to hope, right? We have to, I mean, we, we have to hope that things like this will actually
work out. But I think, you know, we've, we've learned maybe that we do need some, some permissions,
some got it, you know, but that just comes with, you know, maturity and, and wisdom and experience.
Z-Fi?
I think to touch on that and maybe, maybe expand on it a little bit is just,
we also, how do I put words to this?
We tended to focus or favor optimistic voting. So anytime a proposal would go up,
we were excited to try it. We thought, Hey, we're going to support our friends. We'll try this new
thing. Maybe it's a project. We'll fund this project. Maybe it's a new approach. We're going to,
we're going to just say yes and try it, which works. I mean, in a lot of ways, that's good.
It allows you to iterate and try new things very quickly, but the optimistic approach,
especially when it came to funding, is something that probably isn't the best approach. You know,
we, we didn't really look at sustainability, organizational financial sustainability when we
were making these decisions. We just thought, does it sound like a good idea? Sure. Send it.
But a bunch of those collectively made all together without oversight of like
where we're all going together financially.
In my current job, I had to learn the skill set of sustainability and I didn't really understand it
to the degree that I did until I had to do that as my job. I was all about like acquiring things,
flashy things, make, get the coolest stuff. But then there's the hard work of maintaining it,
sustaining it, enhancing it, keeping it there, all that, all that grueling work and sometimes
thankless work. So you would have done that differently is to look at it a little bit more
in a sustainable lens. Either encourage voters to or educate voters with more information to be able
to make those weighted decisions. Like, yes, it's a good idea, but that cost might not check.
Or to approach things, maybe not from the optimistic by default.
Got it.
We will approach things from the, this doesn't pass unless
everybody supports it kind of thing.
Got it.
True. What do you think?
I mean, I think that's really spot on.
I think, you know, it's easy as Rowan said in hindsight is 2020, but we definitely
do continually need to keep looking at the implications of the decisions we make.
As again, reflecting this morning that what I like to call the speed of doubt
is something that is, you know, it takes time to get input from everybody who should give
input and then to reflect on that and to hear people's concerns and to really think about the
implications and weigh up the risk, you know, associated with all of those things. And the
need to then balance that with being able to be nimble in a situation where we're not going to
be nimble in a situation where something may go wrong and you need to be able to respond quickly
is, it's a hard thing to be able to grab. And I don't think we necessarily did it wrong, but
hand in hand with sustainability goes resilience for me. And so I think we weren't necessarily
thinking, I think we, you know, we talked about sustainability a lot the whole time I was in the
DOW and as the bank runway started to shorten, it became more of an issue. But I don't really
think that we spent enough time looking at resilience. And maybe that's why when that
big situation happened, you know, we didn't have the systems in place to be able to just
survive and go forward. It really did require a dismantling. And as Rowan said before,
it probably was always coming.
And do you think through that if you had been a little bit more resilient that you wouldn't have had to dismantle as much?
Well, I think we might have had, it's hard to say, but I think we might have had, you know,
we may have had agreements in place, and we may have had, you know, an understanding of,
better understanding of what the relationship was with Bankless LLC and things like that,
that probably, you know, might have allowed us to kind of scaffold a way through. But as it was,
we were kind of operating on hope. A lot of the time.
Got it.
A hope and a belief and a social contract.
Got it.
You know, those things are wonderful, but then possibly not the best thing with tools for resilience.
And one of my old supervisors used to say, hope is not a strategy.
Absolutely.
Got it.
I do have to go, but it's been a great pleasure.
Thank you, True. Thank you so much for your time.
Really fun.
Dear guys, I just listened to that Making Bank episode this morning, and I just want to say,
I'm so proud to work with both of you. I thought, I listened to it on 1.75 speed,
because I know that all three of you are not afraid of a thoughtful pause. But I really,
I really enjoyed listening to it, and I was really proud to be on the team with you.
It's very kind of you.
It's a pleasure.
True. Thank you so much. Have a great day.
See you later.
I have to run as well. I will not leave with such eloquence, but I just want to say,
thank you very much, Lenzer, for having us. I guess before I do leave,
do you want, is there anything else you wanted to ask?
I think we got through, all my windows are jacked up right now, but I'm, we're going to keep going.
We're good.
But I think the main thing I wanted to know was, so I figured out, I think I know what the answer
is to the best practices. And on my third discussion question was, one of you said,
question Mark said, what was lacking was distinction between the financial relationship
and the brand relationship. Bankless Media LLC believed the brand was being used improperly and
saw Bankless DAO as an experiment. And I noted that a similar overlap right now exists with
the Sandbox DAO and the Sandbox game. And I wanted to ask what sort of landmines should we avoid?
Well, I think, I think really very, very, very clearly establish expectations. Right? I mean,
I think going into the creation of Bankless DAO, Bankless LLC saw it as an experiment,
but the people who are contributors to Bankless DAO didn't have the same idea. You know, it was,
I think something that, it was something that Bankless LLC could detach themselves from
fairly, I think fairly readily given the DAO didn't have any kind of legal framework. But
yeah, I think, I think going into any relationship between a DAO and, you know, a legal entity
is really, really important. And, you know, what, maybe if Bankless DAO had some kind of legal
footprint in the U.S., it might've been different. There was, right? Like there was, it could have
been messy, right? Different legal courses might've existed, whereas, okay, all right,
I'm picking up what you're putting down now. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that to me is, is an aspect of,
of clarifying expectations. I'm not recommending that Sandbox DAO seeks some kind of legal
footprint in the U.S. because there are advantages and tremendous disadvantages to that, right? And
it puts, it puts contributors at a lot of risk. So, you know, I would just say,
clarify those expectations, both in terms of the way that the, the DAO is, is interacting with,
you know, the, the LLC and what that means and what it means in the future, like what, what plans
exist for the DAO in the future and how the, the LLC, you know, how the, how the LLC sees
the purpose of the DAO sort of evolving over time. And to me, you know, that I, as I mentioned,
when we were jamming before the start of the episode, there seems to be like a three,
a three phase roadmap for, you know, decentralizing the, the governance of, of, and the ownership
perhaps of the game to the DAO. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that to me would be very
complicated and, and perhaps very messy over time. But it's just maintaining that communication and
ensuring those expectations are very clearly communicated. It's like, it's any, I mean,
it comes, I think about it and I'm like, I get what you mean. Communication, right? Like communication,
acting with honesty and integrity and communicating your beliefs and your intentions.
Thanks, Roman. Yeah. So it's a pleasure speaking with you.
I will, I will leave you with that. Thanks for the opportunity to chat,
Lancer. It was, it was a great time. Yeah. As he rides off into the sunset.
That sunset here in my, in my GME background.
Jeff, I had, I had a couple more, but at this point, if you have to go as well, I think,
think we got to a good place. Good. I think that's probably a good idea. I've got a cat.
I've been fighting here for the last 15, 20 minutes. She's great, but boy, is she hungry.
So I'm 30 minutes past dinner time and she's letting me know. It makes sense. Every time I
say, I go, whoop, whoop. She is relentless. Hey, you, you all were super flexible and, and very
easy to, to, I say work with, but schedule around and, and get this set up. This was fabulous. And
I learned a lot talking with you all and just watching, looking at that notion site, the way,
the, the way it was, it was planned out and it is planned out watching the two episodes and
juxtaposing them together like that. And then hearing the wisdom of things that, that you did
well, things that you wish you had paid a little bit more attention to. And then some landmines
that our own Dow could potentially look at to make sure that, that it's not as an intense problem for
us. If that ever happens, the, that was really valuable. Thank you so much for sharing, sharing
your pains and troubles and, and the whole. We've had a lot of them might as well share the wealth,
right? Yeah. Well, is there anything that you want to ask me or anything that you want to end with
and tell, tell everyone. Nothing on my mind, but thank you so much for giving us this opportunity
to tell our story. And maybe we can come back with a part two after we get a good launch on the black
flag. I'd love to, I'd love to check back in and see how, how everything happens on the, on the flip
side. Sounds good. We'll stay in touch. All right. All right, everyone. This was a Sandel podcast
Sandel podcast number 44. Can't believe we're at 44 already, but we spoke today with True Cat,
Z-Fi and Rowan from Anklas Dow now called Black Flag Dow as they transition out of a really,
really tough, tough thing on both sides to how do you, how do you separate what was your identity,
your name to what your new identity is going to be? What, what does it look like? Everything
from governance to your name to the, even if the community image change and the tough problems
that they are, the tough solutions that they're, they're coming up with in order to come out better
on the other side to what would you say vibe, thrive and explore? You got it. Thank you, Z-Fi.
Appreciate your time. Thanks, Lenzer. All right. Bye everybody.