Hello everybody.
We are celebrating the 30th episode of Sandel podcast.
I can't believe we just hit 30 episodes.
But what better way to bring in the 30th episode than interview someone whom I admire greatly.
Someone who I've been watching for quite a long time.
I own a fun guy myself.
I walk around with the multicolored mushroom and one of my favorite avatars to run around
the space with.
The man, the myth, the legend himself, Touche, is going to be speaking with us here.
Barely got it by.
He's a hard guy to get to.
Had to convince the community first that this was something that they wanted and ended up
being able to make it happen.
So to say I appreciate you coming on the show and I still love that gimbal thing going on
which is following you around everywhere you go.
I got to turn on my light so that people could actually see my face.
Thanks man.
Thanks.
Appreciate it.
And yeah, sorry for the lot of hit and misses there.
It's been a busy past couple of months.
I'll say that much.
No, I definitely understand that.
And we'll get into some of that as well.
Just the story, the build up.
So the scope of the talk today is to pay homage, to pay homage to our friend Touche and get
a little perspective from someone who's been in the game for quite a while.
So like I said, pay homage and gain a little perspective.
Disclaimer as per usual, we do not represent the Sandbox game or the Sandbox DAO Foundation.
We are not your financial and legal advisors and nothing Touche and I say isn't to be taken
as such.
When we say actually, we don't really need to talk much about because we're not talking
about the DAO much.
It's just going to be talking about the story in the background.
So I'm going to skip right across scoreboard and the checkbook.
It's not really relevant for today's talk and jump into introductions.
I'm Lanzer.
I'm a landowner and podcast host of Sand DAO.
It's all about the Sandbox DAO.
And for this episode particular, we're jumping into a community perspective, someone specifically
a studio.
We've had studios on before, but never quite like focused like this.
So the first one is the 30th.
It's all around just a special, special time.
So that's me.
I've been in since 2021, December, so about mid season one.
And I Touche, you've been in a studio far longer, but let's get into your background.
Please introduce yourself and where does it all start?
Yeah, okay.
So in specifically the sandbox stuff, I guess I've been in the sandbox since I think February
or March of 2021.
Just about that time.
I think I got started with the Game Maker Fund around then started by, I think I just
been pretty much got interested into NFTs.
I had a friend reach out to me that knew I was an artist and was like, Hey, have you
heard about this NFT thing?
I was like, nope.
I've been, you know, they knew I was in crypto and stuff and had been interested in that.
So they're like, you should check it out.
So I went at the time I was actually moving from Oregon to Washington where I am now.
So pretty much as soon as I got here, set up my computer, started looking into NFTs
and then just thought the technology was pretty cool.
And there was obviously like a lot of hype around it and everything.
So I originally got started with a platform called Foundation.
Have you heard of them?
They do the foundation.app.
So I tried to get like just some of my artwork listed on Foundation.
It was like an invite only thing, pretty hard to get into it and all that stuff.
But eventually I got in it, like started getting really close with like the people that kind
of ran Foundation and everything and eventually became, got offered like an administrative
role there to a degree, like kind of like modding slash helping them out with some stuff.
I did that for probably a month before I found the sandbox.
And like Ready Player One is like one of my favorite kind of movies and stuff.
So I was like, Oh, this is close.
You know, we're getting there.
So I was like, let's see where this goes, right?
And so I, 2021 was really kind of like a difficult time to get any information about the sandbox
other than like, to be honest with you, I thought, you know, everything was already
live.
It was really kind of hard to figure out that it even wasn't live and stuff because you
could buy the land and then you're like, well, what do you do with this?
So the only place to really go for information at the time was like three or four streamers
that were streaming at the time.
One of them being Andy.
And so I got into Andy's chat, Andy Richie.
Yeah, I got into Andy's chat about March, 2021.
And he taught me a lot of the beginning stages of GameMaker.
There was like no YouTube tutorials or anything.
So you just kind of had to ask questions.
I think at the time we were before, it was the glitch in the metaverse game jam that
was about to happen.
Never participated in a game jam.
Never built a game in my life before.
So I was like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
But I had a concept for a game.
I was like, hey, let's, you know, I had these like mushroom characters that I had drawn,
the fun guys, and I was cool to like, because someone tells you make a game and you're like,
what about?
Right.
And so I was like, what do I know?
I know these characters.
Let's just try to tell a story with them.
It was like a different way of telling a story.
Right.
So at the time I had been working on like comic book scripts and stuff like that and
making a comic, making an animation is expensive and takes a long time and stuff.
And building a game in GameMaker was a little easier than that.
You know, so I was like, well, much easier than that.
So I was like, let's do that and cheaper.
So I built that, told the story.
And at the same time, I actually went into the, before I actually got in the Twitch channels
and all that stuff and started learning about the sandbox and everything.
I like wanted to like create, originally I went to the sandbox to like create voxel art,
right?
I was just going to make the like little mushroom dudes and then just see if they would sell
on the marketplace.
Right.
Because the first NFTs that I had created were these trading cards of the fun guys.
And I was like, oh, well, let's keep the theme.
Let's build 3d versions of the fun guys.
And if anyone buys the trading card, they get this like voxel model and all that stuff.
So originally I wasn't even interested in game development.
And when you went to the sandbox website at that time, if you went to VoxEdit and you
went to publish a model, it automatically threw you into this page on the sandbox website
that was like the creator forum or something like that.
And it was basically you had to, in order to ever to publish something through VoxEdit
at the time, you had to be a published artist.
So you had to be a creator fund artist or a game maker fund artist.
And I was not able to say that was the biggest obstacle for me is I didn't even know how
to get into that at the time.
Yeah, you couldn't publish anything.
So I act so the form pops up and it's like, if you want to publish, you have to like fill
out this form.
And I just thought everybody had to do that.
Right.
So it was a really long form.
And it was like asking me like, what do you bring to the sandbox?
And all of a sudden I was like, I guess it's new.
Like they got they got to check everybody.
What I didn't know at the time was I was applying for the game maker fund and I had no idea.
I was accidentally filling out the game maker fund form and I filled it out with the fun
guys and then this thing was like, what kind of game would you want to build?
And I was like, I don't know, like Stardew Valley, but with these mushroom dudes.
Anyway, filled it all out.
Next day, I got an email from Seb that's like, I love your Stardew Valley idea.
Let's build it in the sandbox.
And I got in the game maker fund.
It was literally an accident.
I didn't even mean to do it.
So guys, the game maker 2021.
Yeah.
Wow.
So yeah, so got in it completely by accident.
I think I was the 27th project in the game maker fund because they named they like labeled
it like fungi 27 or something like that.
Already at the time there was like a few familiar faces like Tempest was in there.
So like I got I became friends with Cody and stuff and all of them.
And it was like a really cool like camaraderie time.
Like it was all very new and very fun.
So then afterwards, you know, getting involved with the communities and being like, I guess
I got to build a game now.
Like I have no idea what I'm doing.
Started learning through Twitch participated in the glitch in the metaverse game jam by
building a demo to the fungi kingdom game that I applied to the game maker fund with.
And I think I got third place with that game and made something like $6,000.
It was the most money I'd seen in like a long time.
So I'm no six, six, six thousand.
Yeah, got it.
Six thousand dollars.
And I used five thousand of that to build this PC that I now have, which Andy had done
the same when he won his game jam the first one.
So it was like, you know, so I actually built kind of like the same exact PC as him because
I at the time had no idea what I was doing with with all this shit.
So I'll start out somewhere.
Yeah, got involved with the game maker fund kind of by accident, built a demo, got third
place with it in the game jam.
And I was like, this is pretty cool.
And at the time I was moving to Washington and like starting to apply for jobs and everything.
And I just stopped.
I just stopped applying for any jobs.
I was like, I guess this made me more money than I would make in like a few months at
an office.
So let's just do this until that doesn't work anymore.
And yeah, yeah, right then and there.
I mean, I wasn't doing anything else, really.
So I had so previous to that right around covid right before covid really.
So 20 before 2020, I had started a marketing business with with a friend in Oregon and
we were doing pretty good.
And then covid hit.
We lost all our clients.
And so it was like about six months of like not knowing what we were doing.
We moved here in the middle of covid.
So like I was just like, I mean, maybe I can get a remote job somewhere.
All our clients had like dropped off the face of the earth.
We had like two clients left out of like having 20.
And so it was just it was a bad time.
So the marketing thing kind of got pulled on hold.
And I was like, well, I have to go look for a job then.
And then came here, sandbox thing happened.
I was like, I guess we're putting that on hold, too.
So then, yeah, and then pretty much kind of just rode that wave until now.
And you were full time before the end of 2021.
Well, I was I mean, it's hard to say because I wasn't doing anything else.
I didn't have a job, right?
I had my own marketing company and that had been so slow that like you could say I was
full time, but I was like full time that as well, even though we weren't doing anything.
I was definitely doing most of most of my time was spent in the sandbox.
So, yeah, gotcha.
So you were all in and on the website, it said it was established in 2010.
What's the connection there?
So it's two studios has been around since I was like 20 years old.
I thought I was like pretty clever and came up with the name to shake.
My last name is Shay.
And so I was like, hey, to shake to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I connect it.
It connects.
It was funny.
And then I used that.
That was the banner that I kind of started my original freelance company under.
So I did logos and websites and stuff for people since 2010.
And I've been doing illustrations and stuff like, you know, little one off things.
People want me to design their D&D characters, stuff like that.
Just freelance work since 2010.
And then we really I really hit the ground running with like the studio thing.
We officially started doing game development, obviously, in 2021.
So I wasn't game developing in 2010 at all.
It was just marketing and stuff like that.
No, no, that makes sense.
That connects.
I had a similar.
I started my first business when I was like a freshman or sophomore in college.
And it was just, you know, my creative outlet.
And then it became more serious about publishing books to Amazon and then music to iTunes.
And I started getting serious the more I started maturing.
But in the beginning, it was just I've got a company.
Yeah.
What the hell is this thing?
Right.
Yeah.
It's like, yeah, at some point, you just start learning what a company does and then you
start doing things through the company.
And yeah, it's just it was like mostly a learning process for me.
Honestly, they don't teach any of this stuff.
So it's like, let's see what this does.
Right.
And people are doing it.
So I guess building a business is a good idea.
So it was just like a 20 year old entrepreneurial like, I don't know what this is, but let's
try it.
Let's see where it goes.
Yeah.
And that's that's why whenever nowadays, if I could give my my younger self advice would
be stop worrying about trying to make a picture perfect and just go do it because from then
on you start building the foundation for where you are now.
If I could have done that five years earlier, there's no telling where I'd be right now.
I don't know.
But you live and you learn.
Yeah.
That's that's actually like a big reason why I'm doing what I'm doing now.
Like I started doing the whole painting thing after I dropped out of sandbox and we're probably
getting ahead of your slides here.
That's okay.
It's all good.
I thought the same thing to myself, right?
Like my my passion is painting, right?
Like I, I mean, I love putting messy paint on a canvas and then making it look like something
that wasn't just a, you know, paint in a tube.
And I can see that in your Twitch streams.
It's really cool to watch how it evolves from just a mask to something well defined.
Like I said yesterday or last night.
Yeah.
What your Final Fantasy character, the way that you kind of fleshed out the the coat.
Yeah.
And I'm not like I'm not a good artist.
I'll be the first to say like I'm not a very good painter, but I I'm using this opportunity
to learn and like a big, big help in that is scheduling learning time, right?
And so the streams for me are like scheduled time to learn how to paint.
And I'm just doing it in front of everybody else, right?
So I had, I asked myself the same question, like about 20, I think 2016 or something like
that.
I did the same thing that I'm doing now, but in a much smaller scale.
I live in a tiny house in the back of my parents' house in Florida and my dad and I built a
tiny house and I lived there for three years.
And about the last year that I was there.
Like a proper tiny house?
Yeah, yeah.
Tiny house.
Right on.
Eight by 22, eight by 20 or 22.
I forget.
Solar panels the whole night.
Compost toilet.
I mean, I went all tiny house.
Oh my gosh, man.
You went hard in the paint.
Yeah, it was, it was great.
I loved, it was like a good lesson in downsizing and like figuring out what you need and what
you don't.
You learn real fast.
What's real important to you.
Yeah.
And I obviously have my parents' house right there.
So like, it's not like I threw everything away that didn't fit in the tiny house, but
I did learn how to pack enough so that when I eventually did move to the West coast, everything
fit in my car and the trailer and the small little U-Haul.
And what was the impetus behind moving to the West coast?
Getting out of Florida, to be honest with you.
I'd been there for 14 years and I was just like, we'd all been saying, let's go, let's
do something else.
And yeah, it was just, why not?
I mean, I had been that same job for nine years, corporate.
Just like it was great gig, right?
Like great money and you know, it was a graphic design and it's like what I wanted to do,
but I fucking hated it.
Every moment of it was just like, I mean, I was doing graphic design.
I was graphic designing medical pamphlets.
So it's like, how entertaining can that be for anybody?
Medical pamphlets.
Yeah.
The height of inspiration and innovation.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And it kills you.
I mean, time goes backwards, dude, when you're doing that kind of stuff and it's just, it's
such a drag.
And so I was like, I can't just do this forever.
And if, and if I ever want to, I'll just do it again, right?
Like might as well try something new.
And yeah, so picked up and moved out here.
Gotcha.
But yeah, there's so, so question I asked myself going back to like that, what would
I have told my past self is like, what do you want to get good at?
Right?
It's like, what do you want to be good at in 20 years?
Like what if you could just see yourself in 20 years, what would you like, like to see
in yourself?
And then in every venue that I explored, it's like, I just want to be a better artist, right?
Whatever that means, like, I just want to be able to paint better or do whatever it
is that's creative.
I want to do it to the best of my abilities.
And the only real way to get there is by practicing that kind of thing.
So I asked myself, like, if I had not done game development for the past three years
and instead painted every single one of those days, what would I be painting right now?
Where would you be now?
Yeah.
Right.
What would the paintings look like?
It's like, and even taking that even further, if I'd never stopped since 2016 and doing
the tiny house studio stuff and I painted, I think I did about 35 episodes before I moved
out to the West coast and I tried to start it up again, but then logistically things
just didn't work out.
So like, but what if I never stopped painting for the last like eight years?
What the heck would I be doing right now?
So asking myself those questions made me realize what was more important to me.
And it was like, the game development is cool, right?
It's like, at some point you can kind of sit back and be very satisfied by creating something
in the, in the sandbox.
But it's hard to get there.
And there's a lot of reasons that I can go into why it's hard to get to that satisfaction,
especially now.
But this, the painting thing, dude, like as soon as I'm done, I sit there and I just stare
at it.
And it's like something that I can look at my work and go, okay, next time I'm going
to do this differently.
And like, I'm learning as I'm doing it and it feels so much better.
It feels so much more like satisfying.
It's much more organic.
You see more in your element when you're doing that.
Yeah.
And it's just like, I don't, I don't know how to describe it other than like, that is
like meditation versus the game development stuff is like putting in work that is actual
work.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I want to get good at what I want to be good at in five years.
I'm like, the game development thing is cool, but like, I want to be able to paint whatever
I want.
Right.
Like if I imagine that I just want to be able to paint that and that doesn't happen if I
don't practice.
So you were, you were really successful, man.
You, I think I recorded, so you had 14 games that I counted multiple time game jam, when
you're GMF 2021 and you achieve advanced partner.
So in terms of people who achieved the pinnacle and the sandbox fear, I don't know how much
higher you could have gone.
You seem to have struck a chord.
And isn't that kind of scary, right?
Because I couldn't make it right.
And so like, I'll go back to these games and wins.
I'll be the first to say like I to Shay was not responsible for most of those game jam
wins.
That's my team.
My team is brilliant.
Zombie and, and Steven and everybody that worked on those games, like takes that prize home
because without them, we wouldn't have been able to win.
That the team we did nothing.
Yeah.
What all those other things mean, it just kind of happened.
I'll be honest.
Like I didn't push to do anything.
I found out I was an event trusted partner by, by an email.
Like, and it, and you know, like I didn't, it's, it's very scary to me to be one of
the most successful studios in the sandbox and know what I know about my finances and
my problems and my studio.
And, and it's just like, I couldn't imagine struggling any more than I am right now and
still doing the sandbox stuff.
Right.
And like being, you know, staying through and turns out that everybody is in that position.
Right.
And I'm in that position too, man.
I discovered that early and I'm, I've been a business entrepreneur for a while.
It so master.
I'm going to do a podcast episode on, I'm sorry.
Keep going.
No, no.
So, but that's the problem, right?
Is like all those accolades at the end of the day, it's pretty difficult to even do
anything with that.
So yeah, success is achieved in some ways, right?
Like, but it doesn't mean much at the, at the end of the day, unfortunately.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And, and as I was, I guess you could say I was shocked when I read your tweet.
I wasn't expecting it.
That's the real way to say it.
I didn't expect that that was going to happen.
And then Tempest happened.
And then that may happen to a few other studios who I've, who have told me privately when
I've interviewed and I myself as a studio who published two, two experiences, just the
math was not working.
And I'm like, what in the world is going on here?
I just can't figure it out.
And I did end up mathematically figured out what the problem was.
And I'm going to do a podcast episode on it.
So to go down later, but can you walk me through the road that, that led you to the tweet?
You had some very specific quotes that really stood out to me.
Like, that's a red flag.
That's something to really ask about.
Walk me through it.
How did it happen?
Do you remember back when our friend, Gary Gensler decided that San token and a bunch
of like 44 other tokens were going to be securities.
Yes.
And then Sanbox had to do this whole like, Hey, the U S can't be staking anymore.
All this stuff.
It was so fascinating to see that that was specifically mentioned.
I was, wow.
So when that happened, right, I was like, okay, interesting.
We're in the U S that's a great equation for me.
I have Sanstaked.
Do I have to pull it out?
Turns out yes.
Okay.
Well, Sanstaking was how we were supposed to get catalysts for minting assets.
So I'm going to take you back before catalyst system, before the marketplace has had been
decided and before you didn't need to mint assets to publish an experience.
So at that time, my thinking is you need to mint all the assets to be published in an
experience.
How are we going to mint assets when already the token is considered a security or the
assets now going to be considered securities too?
All these questions that you start asking, how am I going to get paid out for the rest
of my game maker fund contract?
Is the sand that I'm earning, am I able to earn that anymore?
Is it legal for me to have sand as a U S?
And you ask all these questions to the people who you're supposed to ask these questions
to and they have no idea.
So instead of giving you any answers or finding out what the answers are, they just cut off
that branch.
So no more staking.
So I'm like, okay, if no more staking, how are we supposed to get the catalysts to be
able to mint the assets?
Oh, well, don't worry.
You won't have to do that because you won't have to mint assets anymore to publish experiences.
So you won't have to mint.
So what's the point of the marketplace?
The marketplace was supposed to be created so that people could upload assets so that
game developers could buy those assets because they needed to have minted assets to publish
their games.
If you no longer need minted assets to publish your games, you don't need assets minted on
the marketplace marketplace becomes pretty irrelevant except for what?
Equipment, which is the only thing people are buying right now.
Right?
So they did this out that did not escape my notice.
Yeah.
Right.
So back.
Okay.
So you have no more need for marketplace, basically, because the minted assets are no
longer a thing.
It's much cheaper to hire someone to build a tree than to buy a tree.
And so as a game developer, you're going to hire the person to buy the to build the
tree.
And so the entire marketplace becomes irrelevant.
Then they decide how we're going to do catalysts.
So it's no longer going to be with staking.
If you look at the original white paper for the sandbox, the way that they were going
to distribute catalysts was going to be proportional to how many districts key districts that you
were be able to create.
Right.
So you were you and I, if we had land next to each other, we could create a district.
We could stake sand onto that district and we would earn catalysts proportional to our
stake in that district.
Right.
So each district gets catalysts.
Those get distributed to the people who stake within that district.
That's all gone.
That doesn't exist anymore at all.
And it's not coming back.
It's just that's not how it's working anymore.
So what's the point of having those districts?
What's the point of staking even?
Is it just to earn kickback on sand?
They're not even distributing catalysts to that.
So everything was shifting.
That was a big thing for me.
Catalysts.
I was in the pre catalyst version and that's how I had made my business model.
And then the new catalyst system came and just threw that all out of whack.
That's where all my math is based on.
One asset per mint.
It just became this whole like they were changing the whole game.
Yeah.
It wasn't even like they were shifting the goalposts.
We changed the field.
We changed the type of ball we were using.
It was all completely different.
And so you're like, okay, well, if this is happening, the implications are that the marketplace
is going to deteriorate.
The catalyst system is sand is going to be just devalued to hell and back because the
only thing that people are earning is sand and there's no reason to spend that sand anymore.
Big reason that you own sand is to build the games because you need to send in order to
buy the assets.
You don't need to buy the assets.
You don't need the sand.
And so every time you get sent, you dump it.
Why wouldn't you?
Right.
Like it just makes sense.
So it was just there's so many just like bad business decisions in my opinion that were
made that changed the whole perspective of what I thought was going to be done with land
and assets and all that stuff.
So so yeah, that was probably what?
How long ago did the catalyst system come out?
How long ago?
It's been a year in my mind.
Yeah.
And then on top of that, like we pitched to, you know, they say that you get 1% of the
clients that you pitch to.
Right.
So if you pitch 100 times, you get one client.
We pitched 120 times and got one client.
And I was like, this is a lot.
This is too much.
Like you were, you were pitching for what companies we were sent emails to.
I mean, all sorts of different companies, people would reach out to us and then we would
pitch to them and they wouldn't get back to us.
It was a very interesting time where it was like people seem to be interested, but then
the moment they found out how much things cost, it was like, we're not interested anymore.
And so in reality, a situation is like, you got to pay people to do these things.
Like I'm not charging you 10 times what it's costing me.
I'm charging you pretty much what it costs me times too, so I can hopefully keep some
money in the bank.
And yeah, everything was just too difficult.
And then the last, I mean, if I'm being honest with you, I was going to close down the studio
by at least, you know, start thinking about packing up shop much earlier this year.
And then the first builder's challenge happened.
We didn't do anything for five weeks for the first builder's challenge.
And then week six, we released fungi kingdom.
And I think I barely did anything for that.
Like I mean, I put about, I don't know, I think it was like a thousand sand towards
it.
You know, like it was, it wasn't much in terms of like rewards.
And then we, without trying, we did, we pulled in 70,000 sand in the first builder challenge
without even trying.
And only doing it for half of the time.
And we got in top 10.
So I was like, holy shit.
All right.
Those 70,000 sand kept the studio running for a little while.
So I liquidated all that kept it for salaries, use that for salaries until the challenge
to build a challenge to comes around.
I put in a boatload of effort the whole time made 9,000 sand continue.
Yeah, no, I know it was, it was surprising to me that I was like, holy shit.
I did not expect, dude, I did not expect to get to that 10 so much that, so we got 20,000
sand and then the top 10 price was an additional 50,000 sand.
Right.
So 50,000 sand was really what made everything worth it.
But the 21,000 sand, I cashed that out thinking that's all we got.
Then when people started showing, oh, we got the top 10 distribution.
I was like, man, that's cool for them.
You know, like I was super like kind of jealous to be honest with you.
I'll be like, I should have tried harder.
And I went to the claims page three days later because I saw a little thing on there and
I was, I had the 50,000 sand waiting for me.
I was like, I got into top 10.
How the fuck?
Like I had no idea how it would be possible because we didn't do anything for the first
five weeks.
So I was like, obviously, fill this challenge too.
We'll try now.
Right.
I'll put effort into the total 10 weeks, fill this whole lab or thing.
And then they changed the whole reward structure.
Right.
So it's, it's always shifting goalposts.
And that's really the big problem.
You cannot build a business off of a target that moves and disappears sometimes.
And it pops up behind you and you're like, what the hell's going on?
So that's really the big problem.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm with you on that.
I mean, I'm, I'm celebrating your success.
I'm so happy that you made 70,000.
I was awesome.
No, don't get me wrong.
Like that was, that was incredible for me.
And I was like, holy shit, there might be hope here.
Right.
And it's like, and that was, that was the, I think we got too comfortable with that.
And I thought, you know, maybe there's still an opportunity to do this over and over again.
Sure.
I was fraught with challenges that made that impossible.
But, but yeah, ultimately what ended up leading to that suite was seeing the results of builder
challenge to realizing that we ain't have client, we don't have clients, the money's
drying up.
We don't have any prospect of any change.
And to be honest with you, I don't see the sandbox chain making any crazy advancements
that would make all those things possible, like making clients, getting clients, making
money, all those things for another two years.
So like, do I sit here and wait two years and spend all my money and then be broke and,
but I made, but I waited two years, right.
Or do I just pull back, let the two years pass and then come back if it's better.
Right.
And that's what ended up being the decision.
Yeah.
I, I made, like I said, 9,000 sand.
My partner and I split the development cost and we paid about 20,000 us dollars to build.
And we put our heart and soul into that.
I was, I had partnered with some major nonprofits like military, new gamers who had never done
the sandbox before.
We ranked seventh one of the weeks.
We were going hard and then, and then we just started getting outpaced and I could not figure
out why, man.
It was killing me.
It was killing me, but I don't begrudge any of your success.
I'm really glad that you, you were able to make it.
What did you say you made for a builder challenge too?
That you, that was a lot less.
I think I heard you say,
in total, I think we made something like 26,000 sand or something like that.
But maybe if we gave away 16,000 in rewards.
Yeah.
More than, oh, you gave away 16,000 in rewards.
Wow.
I think it was like 18,000.
I just finished sending out all the rewards, I'm good at being quite a bit.
We only made a profit about maybe 10,000 sand, which is $2,000 for 10 weeks of effort.
And a team of seven.
You see how this doesn't math.
Yeah.
I see the math is not mapping on that.
Yeah.
And some people just, if you don't know, trying to maintain a leaderboard, manage rewards
system manually is, it is so hard.
Do you know how many hours I spent on Excel sheets to try and keep track of rewards and
wallets and just.
Yes, I do.
Unbelievable.
Anyways, a moment of kumbaya on that.
It is tough.
It's a tough life out there.
And that's the problem, right?
It's like, at some point you feel like everyone's just looking at you like an ATM, right?
With extra steps because they have to like play a mini game before they can withdraw
cash.
Yeah.
Submit a screenshot here and there.
Yeah.
I got the amount of messages that I get after reward, after a leaderboard is finalized from
that moment until I send out the rewards, I'm getting pinged every single day, multiple
times from different people asking me when I'm going to distribute rewards.
And you just got to look around and go, what do people think I am like a machine?
Like, what do I do?
Just sit here and like, no.
Dude, like.
Yeah.
I had the same thing during Builders Challenge.
The same, same thing.
And you know what?
Some of them, I really like them.
They're great community members.
So let's talk about.
It's like I'm tech support.
Like, hey, I didn't get my reward yet.
When is it coming out?
And I submit on my wall and I'm like, all right, let me.
So like, if you're asking about things that, you know, all frustrations like that can be
remedied by different things, right?
Yeah.
So much of it is in the power of the sandbox.
And that's why you go, well, do I sit here and send reward?
Like it's annoying tabulating everything, making sure everything's correct, checking
with the community.
Then people are like, Hey, I think I submitted a score.
Can you check?
And you're like, no, you submitted it to the wrong form.
And they're like, Oh, I'm sorry.
And they're like, Oh, well, do I forgive them?
Do I put them in there?
Or is it everybody else?
You have all of these problems that you're like, it would be so solved so much easier
if sandbox had their own leaderboards that people can just auto, I can automatically
see who's at the top, like submit it, go to the sandbox dashboard.
Who got top 10 in my game this week?
Okay, boom.
Immediately pay them out.
There's a distribution system.
There's a claim page.
Why can't we use that?
Like, yeah, there's so many things that you're like, this manual process is, it might seem
like it's simple and easy and all that stuff, but it's so tedious and so easily solved.
Maybe not easily, but solve it's solvable.
And you're like, if that's not a massive priority, it's like, how the hell, how is anybody thinking
of running a business here?
Manual distributions of things is just, it's a very archaic system.
It's rough.
Yeah.
Tulip is agreeing with you in chat, by the way.
The same here, Excel with 20 plus sheets to cover 10 weeks.
Oh, dude.
Yeah.
I mean, I have every single time.
Oh, dude, I don't even, I can't even.
Oh, and Joseph asked a really good question that I'm going to ask later on.
I'm going to put it in our community questions chat.
Yeah.
Right on.
Yeah, no, I completely identify with the pains and the hardships.
The only thing that changed between you and me, with the obvious that you've been in it
for quite some time, is that the Dow and my business background.
That's the only reason I think that I'm still so motivated.
Otherwise, I reached the same conclusion you did.
I did the same math you did and I came to the same conclusions.
Like this is rough.
Like we're early to the point where I don't think I can sustain an actual business model
here under these conditions.
It was very-
I no longer think it's fair to say that we're early, to be honest with you.
I think that-
Go on.
I think that this has missed.
I think that unless there's a course redirection, this is missing its target of being what it's
set out to be.
The white paper is completely different from what it originally was even in 2021.
We've got to look at those things and go, is the shift actually beneficial to us or
is it to the investors who have taken hold of this company?
At some point you go, I don't know if this is the best UGC platform out there.
I don't know if this is going to be able to-
I don't know if you can say that we're early and things are still shifting and all that
stuff.
I hope.
But I also think that that early shift has to be an early shift in a course redirection.
They can't continue doing what they're doing now and expect to be successful.
Outpace Roblox and Minecraft and Fortnite.
You're crazy.
You're absolutely insane.
Look at those platforms.
Look at what they're doing.
In the three years, Fortnite, the Unreal editor for Fortnite wasn't a thing when the sandbox
got created, when the sandbox was popular in 2021.
They shifted.
If Fortnite is shifting, why are- there's just so many things that you look around and
you go, at the end of the day, do you sit there and rock your boat on these waves or
you just dock for a little bit and wait till the sea gets a little calmer?
And that's the bottom line, I think.
I see.
I'm picking up what you're putting down.
I think that makes a lot of sense, especially someone who reached the depths of the sand
fam space that you have.
Was there a difference?
Did things change when you became an advanced partner?
No.
Okay.
No, I was thinking it's like an arbitrary title thing.
I just wanted people to have a badge, you know?
Gotcha.
No new clients, nothing.
Yeah, nothing like that.
Got it.
Yeah, I'd always been curious because that advanced partner looks pretty nice.
I mean, it's a nice graphic.
I'll give it to you.
It's a nice graphic, but what you get with it is- what you really get with being an advanced
trusted partner of the sandbox is you get a dedicated person to- a person, your account
manager, right?
And they're there to be your liaison through everything.
But they have just as much roadblocks as you do, right?
Like it's not like you're talking to Seb.
As a matter of fact, most of the times I would just talk to Seb because it gets things done
faster, right?
Yeah.
I'm doing the same thing.
I'm trying to just liaise to my account manager, not trying to jump the ship too much unless
I have to.
Same thing.
Yeah.
But-
All right, so-
That's the cross of it, yeah.
So describe to me like when it was good, what were the highs like?
I mean building with the team, right?
Like that was cool.
I do enjoy- we had team meetings every Wednesday and so those meetings are really fun.
Like a proper team.
Yeah, we get together and kind of play the games that we're working on and stuff, catch
up with everybody.
I think that those are always good highlights.
We have a lot of all the games that we build, especially all the multiplayer ones, we demo
with the team first and those are some really fun times.
The highest of the high was probably that first game jam win and I think everyone would
probably say the same thing or similar.
Like that first game jam win and going, holy shit, I don't have to look for a job for the
next few months, you know?
That was crazy.
I would say probably those moments are the highest of the high.
Was there anything else that stood out to you?
I mean amidst the sea of criticisms that we may have, what were some other standout things
for you?
In terms of like...
Just say the overall experience.
The overall experience?
I mean, can't lie, it changed my life, right?
Like I'm eternally grateful about- to Seb specifically.
I don't extend that gratefulness to every Sandbox staff person or the Sandbox themselves
directly, but Seb, an awesome person.
He's a believer, man.
He's a good guy.
I reached back into some 2018 YouTube videos.
He's a believer.
At the end of the day, he's a good person.
Like I think that was really the thing that was hardest for me and before I put out that
tweet, you know, I had a conversation with Seb.
I sent him a message on WhatsApp, sent him a long video, explained everything, gave him
my thanks, you know?
Like it wouldn't be fair for me to leave without giving him that courtesy.
And it was really that conversation with him through my, you know, having a call with him
that made me realize like there really is nothing better for me to do here than to step
back for now.
Even chatting with him.
Like I was like, this is the clear choice.
Actually, I mean, I went into that call hoping that he would say, but wait, there's more.
Yeah, yeah.
Never happened.
And so after that, I was like, okay, yeah, it's the time to take a step back, right?
And then on top of that, like, you know, it's just client work in the sandbox is a very
difficult thing to build.
That's just, that's a bottom line, you know?
Yeah.
Cold calling.
It's tough groundwork.
Yeah.
Even when you get the client, you get the client, you got the project out there, the
game maker update happens.
Who's responsible for it?
You know, game's broken.
What do you do?
Right?
You have a service contract?
No.
Is the guy going to be okay with that?
No.
What do you do?
Right?
And no one has answers for these questions.
We're all just making it up.
And it's like, you can't just be spending thousands of dollars a month, just trying
to figure it out.
Like I'm not, I'm not wealthy.
So it's like, you got to like, really look at where the money's going and going, well,
that's not a good place to put money right now.
Right?
And so that's just where that's yeah, bottom line, I think.
Yeah.
I faced this in the real time that's happening to me.
I created for Builders Challenge 1 Floor Droppers and within six months, a new game, a game
maker mechanic came that just upended it completely.
It destroyed the mechanic.
And now I'm in zero zero, by the way, I made it in season four, but I had to face a choice
of completely rebuilding the game mechanic or finding some emergency fix that would make
it work in time.
And this is something I built in May for Builders Challenge 1.
It's already a new update has made it obsolete and broken some of the game logic, the way
the messages are sent.
And it's just like, what am I supposed to do?
I'm not, I'm not a whale.
I'm not wealthy.
So yeah, now, now, now imagine Atari being on the other end of that call and they go,
hey, game's broken.
And you're like, yeah, but you already paid me for it six months ago.
And they're like, it's broken, though, you got to fix it.
And you got to fix it.
And you got to pay your people to fix it for free.
So it's like, yeah, I don't know.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of problems with it.
I think if you have a lot of money, if you were in brick Bitcoin early and you love game
development, it's a passion for you and you got time to employ some people and give them
a good life and a good income.
By far, the best thing to do is start a sandbox studio and spend your infinite amount of money
on on developing for and giving artists jobs and giving game developers jobs.
That's cool.
But if you don't, and you're trying to make money with this, it's, it's a very difficult
thing to do.
Hmm.
Yeah, and I'm still very, very hopeful and optimistic.
I haven't yet been in it long enough to have that, that that arch that you have.
But I see where you're coming from and I see the same things you're seeing.
Yeah.
And look, I still think that there's possible for the platform to have success.
I don't think it'll be easy.
I think it'll be, and like I said in that tweet, it'll take years, not months.
And so for, for that reason, I'm going to give them the space for the next few years
and I'll watch, see what happens.
But there's no reason to ride that wave with them.
Like there's no reason to beat yourself up while they're getting beat up.
It's just, if they'd make it just go back, right?
Like I don't need to suffer with every thing, every decision that the sandbox makes right
now.
If they make good decisions in a couple of years and it's a good idea, then we'll, we'll
make some more games.
But until then it's like, okay.
Yeah.
And now got it.
Got it.
Now I'm tracking what you're picking up, what you're putting down.
So the next one I had was whether or not you were involved in sit voting and I already
know the answer to that.
So we're just going to look also over that.
Yeah, for the record, I think the Dow is dumb.
I'll just put that down.
You think it's dumb?
I think it's the dumbest thing that the sandbox has done.
Oh man, I think it's great.
And they've made some pretty dumb decisions.
I think, I think that offloading business decisions that are primarily a concern of
a business to a community is a sheer lack of responsibility.
And that's about all I have to say about that.
That's the only SIP I ever voted on was the one for Magic Palette, but that was because
I was supporting those guys, but not because I thought it was something that needed to
go through a Dow.
Well thank you.
Thank you for at least voting on that one like that.
I'm really pulling for Pepe and, and I'm going to do another update soon when we have another
demo to show because yeah, I'm excited for that.
I think it's going to be great.
But yeah, then term in terms of the Dow, it's got it.
Got it.
I'm tracking.
It's like it's I think I classify I think it's bold.
I think it's a very bold decision and we'll see where it goes.
Yeah, fair.
Fair enough.
So I had a question that was what needs to be true for you to return.
However, Joseph asked an even better question and his was, do you think you would come back
to the sandbox if you could build an experience and mint an unlimited number of access passes?
For example, you meant a million access passes and sell those like a traditional game.
So people play the game pay to play the game.
Yeah, if there's monetization, but yeah, and I and this is part of that.
It takes years, not months, you know, talking with the sandbox and talking to leadership
there you and I mean, everybody knows this how difficult it is for business decisions
to pass through a corporation.
And so something like that takes years to implement at least right.
And so or at least it's not done like in months.
So yeah, of course, this is part of the package that I say would have to happen for the sandbox
to attract studios that have left.
Right.
We have to have monetization.
We have to have ease of the leaderboard tools and platform features that are available.
Claim page, all the things that we've all talked about is that's all part of like a
package.
I think that that in that's included.
Yeah.
Got it.
And so the thing with games is just a joke right now.
We pay to get people to play our games instead of having people play pay to play our games.
Like and then that's where I am.
So they you pay for people to play and then they ask you where their money is.
And so it's like you get slapped from this hand and then slap from the other.
Yeah.
Tulip says that TSB as a hobby developer as a side job is nice.
TSB as a life income is not yet reliable enough.
And I completely agree.
Yeah.
And for a little while there, I could say that it was possible for like definitely indie
developers, right?
If you're just you and a buddy doing it, probably possible in 2021, 2022, not 2023, 2024.
Fair.
That's fair.
I identify a lot with what you said.
I think I'm just two years to the right of you before before I reach the same point you
do.
And because I'm I'm such a I'm a serial entrepreneur and the Dow has entered the market where it's
like business, community and gaming.
I'm just I'm I'm sold.
I want to make it better through the Dow because I'm I'm very business oriented.
That's my background.
And so I see that now as my outlet.
But give me two years.
Maybe I'll be where you are.
I'm optimistic.
And that's a good place to be.
I think you should be optimistic.
If you're not optimistic, what are you doing?
Right.
But what are you doing?
Yeah.
I think it's good to be optimistic.
I'm I could say that I'm neither pessimistic or optimistic at the moment.
I'm just kind of a bystander.
I I haven't even grabbed popcorn.
I'm just kind of letting it do its thing.
Right.
You know, I'm also growing the family.
You know, I got a baby on the way.
He's he'll be here.
Congratulations.
So I'm like I'm like kind of focused on a few other things at the moment.
Life turns upside down.
Is it a girl or you're just waiting?
Girl, girl, girl.
Congratulations, my man.
Right on.
So yeah, you know, it's like a lot of life comes at you fast and you can't just sit here,
you know, and it's awesome.
But you can't just sit here playing in the sand.
So right.
Well, I mean, I don't want to belabor it.
I think we hit everything that that I think the community has asked me to ask that I was
myself curious.
Do you have any special shout outs, special thank yous you'd like to give out?
The team that the team is the the people I have to thank the most they put up with me
figuring out what I was doing for the last few years.
So Zombie, Wayward, Steven, Biagi, Keratross, Gnarls.
Those are the guys that that really put everything together for the last few, few months specifically.
Shout out to Nate too.
He was part of the team for a while before he stepped back from the sandbox for a while.
You know, those guys, those guys made things fun.
I think that was a lot of fun.
Also I got to thank Hottle Hill, who is basically a team member, I feel.
Hi, Low Hill.
Hottle Hill.
Oh, Hottle Hill with one L.
Hottle has been everywhere that we are.
You can find her and I think that's community members like her are things that make you
want to keep going.
I think it's a shame to not be able to do more things like this because the opportunity
to meet people like that.
But you know, it is what it is.
Hottle was one of my, for Builders Challenge 1, she was one of the people who helped.
I have her listed as a partner, but she was one of the ones who would stream floor droppers
and playing it.
And I never, like she was the easiest person to work with, never asked anything or demanded
anything in return.
It was just a, how can I help?
And I really, really enjoy Hottle.
And I was just on her stream before we were podcasting doing her marbles game.
And it was, I love Hottle.
She's great.
Another shout out would be to OneBox.
I call OneBox our one true gamer.
I think he's the only person in our community that is a gamer first and the rewards come
second.
If we had a hundred OneBoxes, I would have been making games forever, but that's just
not what we have.
People like OneBox play the game for the love of the game and they will spend time there
just to see what you did.
And when, I mean, especially for games like ours, where we hid so many things at first,
like all the original games that we made were, I could say that probably no one ever found
everything in them.
And OneBox would be there turning over every stone.
The Easter eggs specialist.
Those are gamers.
Those are the guys that you want playing your game.
I think you have that category of gamer and then you have the other one that's in the
sandbox, which is here because it's easy to make a little bit of money.
Make that go up.
But yeah, exactly.
But, but a shout out to him as well.
Yeah.
And give it to me one more time.
You started with Zombie.
What were the names on your team?
Zombie Mandy Wayward, Stephen, Biagi, Keratraz, Mr. Norrals and Nate as well.
Hanula Nate.
Mr. Norrals?
Norrals.
He's a, that's my best friend from Florida, Kyle.
He's known him since I was 14.
And I was like, he's always funny, funny story about Kyle.
He always said he wasn't an artist and always said like I could paint and he can't do art
and all that stuff.
And I got him a job working with the studio and he made voxel art.
And so now he can never say that he was not an artist anymore because he made voxel art.
That's right, Kyle.
Zombie Mandy, I think I missed one between Stephen.
Biagi Stephen, Keratraz.
Keratraz.
That's yeah.
Yeah.
Give me a little leeway.
Close.
I'll give you the spellings later.
All right, cool.
Yeah.
I'm really big into credit where credit's due.
Like we do not get here by ourselves.
We have teams, we have people who help mentor us to make good wise decisions.
And you know, Seb, the sandbox team, people in the chat, Tulip, Joseph, Hoddle.
I think I saw a few others.
Nazmin, Sebga, just community members who you see time and time and again who contribute
to the overall good, contribute to you.
It's really special to call them out to recognize their contributions.
And appreciate you shouting out to them.
Yeah, man.
Yeah.
I think that's about as much as I wanted to delve into.
Are there any open topics?
Oh, I did have an open topic.
Dude, tell me about the mushrooms and your artwork.
Like what is it about the mushrooms?
Is there a specific story?
Your artwork is very focused.
Yeah.
So another shout out.
This is to a YouTuber.
His name is Truthless.
He put out a video.
So Truthless, have you heard of him?
Is a YouTuber, makes a lot of art videos and stuff like that, motivational videos and stuff
like that.
Really cool guy.
He put out a video, I think it was like four or five years ago at this point.
I don't even know.
And at the time I was just trying to figure out, a big problem for me as an artist was
you'd have a blank piece of paper in front of you and you're like, well, I want to get
better.
I want to draw something.
I don't know what to draw.
So you spend time looking for inspiration and blah, blah, blah.
So he put out a video that was like how to defeat that part of the artist's struggle.
It was like, you don't know what to draw.
And it's like, if like artists, artists, artists, writer block.
Yeah.
Mostly sometimes like that.
It's like you stare at a blank canvas and you're like, well, I don't know what to put
on them.
Right.
Got it.
And so it's a big barrier because if you can trick yourself into going, well, I don't know
what to draw.
So I just won't draw, you know, and then another day goes by and another day goes.
So in order you defeating that is like a really important step into just being creative overall.
Right.
So he put out a video that was basically like, in order to solve that, what you do is just
focus on one thing for an entire year.
And so at the time I was just drawing little doodles.
I had this, I would make stickers.
I still have a ton of stickers.
I made stickers for like after my marketing business kind of imploded in COVID, I just
started drawing and making stickers and selling stickers for a while and stuff like that.
And it was always like, what do I draw today?
Right.
It was always like pop culture themes.
And so I was drawing these mushrooms for some reason.
Like I would draw little mushrooms and they were fun to do.
And so in his video, he basically, his thesis is find one thing to draw and just draw that
for an entire year.
Don't draw anything but that.
Every time you go, what did I draw?
That's what you're drawing.
Right.
And so I had to pick a theme that I thought I would want to do.
I think his was ducks or swans or something like that.
He like drew ducks for an entire year or something like that.
It was like an animal.
So I was like mushrooms.
I just draw mushrooms for an entire year.
And so this was like, I don't know, 2018 or something like that, 2019 or something that
I started just like listening to his video and just drawing mushrooms and stuff.
And I was like probably half a year into it when I drew the fun guys.
This was back when I still lived in a tiny house.
I drew the fun guys.
I drew the first of the mushroom houses.
So let me just take a look at here.
So this is one of the, this is the first little, well, sorry, cameras.
Oh yeah, yeah.
I see that on your website.
So yeah, so there you go.
So this is the mushroom house that basically became the figure and everything.
This figure.
So that's how I got started with drawing mushrooms.
I just started drawing these little guys and I would sell these little things for like
20, 30 bucks a pop, these little watercolors.
And at the time I was like, cool, and people like the mushrooms.
And so I just kind of stuck with it and kept drawing mushrooms.
And that's why it was literally just picking an object and I picked mushrooms.
I could have, I could have been drawing, I don't know, frogs right now, but it's mushrooms.
I don't know.
I like mushrooms.
They're very cool.
I don't eat mushrooms.
So I call it, it's, I say it's part of my, I don't eat my own kind, you know, so I don't
eat the fun guys.
But they're fascinating.
They're fascinating specimens.
Their mushrooms are very interesting.
They're like the closest thing to aliens other than octopus, I think that we have on this
planet.
Yeah, they have a fascinating biochemistry.
Yeah, they're interesting.
Well, previous, actually up until this year, this year we found a larger organism.
I think it's a bio, a sea kelp.
But prior to that, the largest known organism on the planet was a mushroom that lived in
Oregon and Washington.
And it is 2000 acres big.
If you don't know mushrooms for the most part.
Yeah.
So mushrooms, actually the mushroom that you see that pops up above the ground, that's
actually the fruit of the mushroom.
Kind of like an apple is the fruit of the apple tree.
The fruiting body of a mushroom is the thing that pops up.
So the spores and all that stuff, that's the little cap.
That's the actual mushroom fruit.
Underneath is the actual mushroom mycelium.
And the mycelium makes up most of, it's like an iceberg.
You only see 10% of the iceberg on top of the water.
The mycelium network underneath the mushroom is what actually is the actual mushroom.
And where actually most of the medicinal properties from mushrooms come from and all that shit.
But the largest mycelium patch is a 3.5 square mile fung.
Yeah, there you go.
Holy smokes.
I didn't even know that was possible.
Crazy, right?
That's crazy.
Yeah.
It's fascinating stuff.
Oh my gosh.
It looks like a fish.
Yeah, it's a very cool, and it's all underground.
It's a giant network of mushrooms.
And so in that area, if you pop, if you see a mushroom over there and you see a mushroom
over there, they're probably from the same patch.
Yikes.
I will never look at the mushroom the same way again.
Thank you for ruining it for me.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Appreciate that.
I had a similar experience.
I come from the writing culture.
So where you would paint, I would write articles and write novels.
When I hit my writer's block, the way I got out of it was I imagined a new story and that
ended up being the books that I ended up publishing to Amazon.
And that ended up being the one that won awards and stuff.
It was crazy, man.
It was just like this random thing I invented in my small little tiny house equivalent dorm
room where I lived for a year.
It's funny how the creator process just kind of unfolds.
It just comes from the most random of things sometimes.
Yeah, you just got to let yourself be creative.
And then I think opportunities with that creativity pop up.
I think it's hard to figure out what you would do in order to make money with painting, even
writing.
Like, oh, I'm going to be a successful writer, I'm going to sell thousands of millions of
books.
It's like good luck.
It's not just writing the book and then all of a sudden it sells.
It's not just painting the painting and then all of a sudden it sells.
But doing it gives you like, it's really dumb to have the end result and how do you sell
the painting, how do you sell the book be the thing that stops you from making the painting
or the book.
I think if you approach it from I'm just going to be creative and see what happens here at
Mentality, the results are just they speak for themselves, right?
It's like never what is the quote?
Don't ever expect anything and you'll never be disappointed, right?
Some like that.
Yeah.
And this has been a great conversation.
I really appreciate you taking the time to to expound upon your perspective.
I definitely learned a lot and maybe just talking about mushrooms and talking about
all the background, the buildup to where we are now.
Thank you for spending time to help me understand.
Yeah, man.
Thanks.
This has been fun.
Yeah.
For the spaces, the normal thing, Mondays, Saturdays, Tuesdays, monthly.
I haven't seen San Fam with Pickaxe and Bruno.
I haven't seen him do anything as of late.
I know he mentioned he might take a little bit of a break.
It seems like he's done that now.
So as of right now, if you'd like to, if you'd like to talk about your story as well, I'd
love to talk to you.
And as a good farewell send off for now to Shay, thank you for everything you've done
for the community.
Thank you for your involvement and thank you for just being a real community member where
you've contributed to the positive growth of people around you.
Thanks, man.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
It's been fun.
Yeah.
So in terms of I normally raid people at the very end and the only people I see on right
now is AU 24K.
Is there anything, anyone specific that you see that we could raid?
He's a great guy.
Let's raid.
Hey, I think that's a great, great way to go.
Yeah.
All right.
AU Gold Housed.
I didn't win.
Gosh darn it on when we did the leaderboard for that to try and kill as many people as
you can.
So next time though, next time we'll get them.
So we'll start the raid.
And again, thank you all for your time.
And most especially to Shay, thank you for your time and looking forward to seeing you
again in the future.
Thanks, man.
Appreciate you.
Thank you, everybody.
I hope to see you again soon and catch me on the paintings.
Peace out.
And yes, to Shay does paintings.
I just go in just to watch a nice little meditation music in the background painting something
that you can't figure out quite at first.
But then he has like an inspiration of what he's gunning for.
And it turns out, I really love seeing how it's manifested.
So thank you all for your time.
And San Fam, we'll see you.