1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,960
All right, everyone.

2
00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,440
Welcome Sandel podcast number 25.

3
00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:10,920
25.

4
00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,480
25.

5
00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:19,960
Today, in continuation of our lessons from other DOWs mini series, the first one was

6
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,040
lessons with Davivi from CityDOW.

7
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:29,040
And we learned a lot about how voting algorithms can benefit us there.

8
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:35,320
One that you, a little different this time from ApecoinDOW, someone who I've been listening

9
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:42,360
to for quite a while on Bulls on the Block and in some other Twitter spaces like that.

10
00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,760
And Derek is with us today.

11
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:51,120
He brings like a very, a wealth of not just game developer background, as you'll hear

12
00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:56,560
a little bit later, but also deeply analytical, mathematical.

13
00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:07,140
So kind of talking about the mathematical realities and of not just the way things look

14
00:01:07,140 --> 00:01:10,720
and feel, but also the way they are in real life.

15
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:18,540
And that, so I'm here to learn from him today about that and what the picture it looks like

16
00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:23,760
for ApecoinDOW and some of the lessons that we can now draw into the sandbox.

17
00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,640
So it's mostly meet and greet.

18
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,080
So the talk is a meet and greet and a learning opportunity from Derek.

19
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,440
And as a disclaimer, Derek and I, we do not represent the sandbox game or the sandbox

20
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:39,640
foundation as far as I'm aware, Derek, you don't represent anything from ApecoinDOW,

21
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,560
correct?

22
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,920
Just a regular DOW member, he says.

23
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,520
And so we are not your financial or legal advisors and nothing we say is to be taken

24
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,800
as financial or legal advice.

25
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,360
Before board, as of yesterday, two new SIPs have entered the arena, one being the Windows

26
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,200
resizing resolution options, which I am the author of, SIP number 14.

27
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,760
And SIP number 15 is Metaverse and Disability Hiring Program by MetaFutura, who we interviewed

28
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,480
yesterday with an Italian interpreter.

29
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,100
That was the first time I'd done an interpretation type podcast where I didn't speak the language

30
00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:19,100
that they did.

31
00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:20,100
It was awesome.

32
00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:21,100
I loved it.

33
00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:22,480
I'll probably do it again sometime.

34
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,920
And then SIP number 13 is still out there for another day, another 24 hours, which is

35
00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:29,360
the Crafting an Entity Drops by Crypto Diplo.

36
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,240
I believe that was Sandow podcast number 21.

37
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,320
So if you're interested in the details of all of those proposals, please go look at

38
00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:44,480
the past few Sandow podcasts and you can hear the authors themselves speak about the SIPs

39
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:45,980
and what they're all about.

40
00:02:45,980 --> 00:02:50,020
And then I will do my own interview of myself here, probably in the next day or two for

41
00:02:50,020 --> 00:02:52,080
SIP number 15.

42
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,760
For the checkbook, we're now at 2.3 million of the 15.5 million Sand budgets.

43
00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:58,600
That's 15% spent.

44
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,000
And we've been in business as a DAO for about three months.

45
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:11,380
DAO Base, we're still looking at 1,800 voters, 211,000 token holders for Sand and landowners

46
00:03:11,380 --> 00:03:12,380
as well.

47
00:03:12,380 --> 00:03:14,880
And that'll bring us right into the introduction.

48
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,520
So I'm Lancer, I'm the podcast host.

49
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:17,680
I'm a landowner.

50
00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:23,280
I'm also in parallel with the subject of today, I'm also an ape.

51
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,480
So I do have some stake in this.

52
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:32,520
But I'm almost exclusively Sandow podcast and the Sandbox DAO as a landowner and as

53
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,080
a gamer and a participant.

54
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,080
And that's me.

55
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,920
Derek, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and where you come from.

56
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,480
Oh, well, I am Derek Smart.

57
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:44,480
Been around.

58
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,480
I'm from here.

59
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,880
I've traveled the world, worked all over the place.

60
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,480
I'm currently based in South Florida.

61
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:51,480
I'm a software developer.

62
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,880
I have two into dev studios.

63
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,080
We mostly do sci-fi games.

64
00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:01,920
And I formed another studio back in 21 to do Web3 games.

65
00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,560
And so I have people all over the world who work on various projects.

66
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,000
And right now we're working on two Web3 projects that are due out in 2025.

67
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:17,240
Other than that, just a regular game developer, been doing it for 30, 40 years now.

68
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,160
Yeah, he says regular developer here, but a little bit of research into that will show

69
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,000
that you've been in game development since I thought I saw the 1980s.

70
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,280
And you're a Battle Cruiser 3000 AD fame.

71
00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:40,680
So one of the most OG-est of the OG game devs out there.

72
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,120
And one of the captions that you had was Indie before it was a thing, which is basically

73
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:50,200
to say when you began, the community was independent.

74
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,920
You know, right on the cusp of the internet coming into being.

75
00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:00,400
And I remember those days, not on this game dev, but as a consumer, like the old Flash

76
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,280
games and everything that kind of pulled up into StarCraft.

77
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,880
But Battle Cruiser made headlines at the time.

78
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:16,400
So he says just a game dev, but there's a huge history there and a wealth of knowledge,

79
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:21,720
which is one of which is the reason why when he speaks, you can tell he's speaking from

80
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:22,720
experience.

81
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:28,640
Can you help us understand, how did you get to, what's the road to the Apecoin Dow for

82
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:29,640
you?

83
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,960
Oh, it was pretty straightforward, actually.

84
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,960
Back in 2020, when everybody was trying not to die from COVID, a friend of mine had approached

85
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:39,960
me.

86
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:48,560
I had bought a game a couple of years before, prior to that, from some investors who we

87
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,880
were running it for.

88
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,800
And during COVID, when the world shut down and everybody's trying not to die, I was trying

89
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,520
to figure out what I was going to do next, because I was in between projects.

90
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,960
And a friend of mine approached me because he knew I had this other game.

91
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,240
And he said, hey, we should make a game for Web3.

92
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,120
I'm going to make a game for Web3.

93
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,720
And how about you license this game to me that you decided to sit on?

94
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,560
So we got talking back and forth.

95
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,560
And I was already familiar with blockchain.

96
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,200
I'm a dev, I'm a technologist.

97
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:27,480
So I always try to keep track of everything going on in the game dev world.

98
00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,560
So since the Bitcoin paper from many years earlier, I was already familiar with blockchain

99
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:33,560
and all this.

100
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:39,320
But I never really wanted to do anything with Web3 games, because it just wasn't something

101
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,920
I wanted to get involved with, especially because there were so many scams and so many

102
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:43,920
crazy things going on.

103
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:51,400
And I figured that if I started to talk or do anything with crypto, my install base would

104
00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,380
probably find where I live and kidnap me and burn me at the stake or something.

105
00:06:56,380 --> 00:07:02,280
So in the end, long story short, we ended up doing the thing whereby I said, OK, fine,

106
00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:06,720
rather than license this game, since I hadn't re-released the game that I bought, we would

107
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:17,120
it's an MMORPG game, we figured that we would then re-release it for Web3, do a bunch of

108
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:23,040
visual improvements, some development tweaks and updates and things like that, and stick

109
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,540
a blockchain on the back end and just re-release it as Web3 games.

110
00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:30,480
So I ended up forming a new studio for that.

111
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,840
And during the course of doing that, a friend of mine, yet another friend of mine approached

112
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:42,280
me and said, hey, if you really want to get an idea of the people behind this whole Web3

113
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:48,840
movement, this is, we're talking 2020, 2021, 2022, and thereabouts, you really need to

114
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,680
get involved with some of these Web3 communities, because they're kind of different from the

115
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,520
standard gaming community.

116
00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,860
So I said, OK, yes, you're right.

117
00:07:57,860 --> 00:08:01,920
So I looked into a few of them, quite a few of them, actually.

118
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,720
And eventually, this particular friend of mine, he owned like, I think, he owned like

119
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,720
five or six apes.

120
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,960
And in the end, I reached out to some of the primaries of the of the Ipcoin DAO, talked

121
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,200
to them, talked to a few of them on Twitter, had some emails and messages.

122
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:25,560
And then I was convinced that since the apes were big in the day, and they were the apes

123
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:33,280
of the premier NFT assets at the time, I figured that would be a good jumping point because

124
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,440
they're very, very engaged with everybody.

125
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,640
So I decided to join the Ipcoin DAO.

126
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,640
And I've been stuck in there ever since.

127
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,200
I'm now the old man yelling at clouds kind of thing.

128
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,040
That's my journey.

129
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,720
So it almost seemed like a friend of a friend of a friend road led you to the biggest, baddest

130
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,880
thing on the block, which at the time was apes.

131
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,880
Yep, that's absolutely correct.

132
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,480
That's how that worked out.

133
00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:58,480
Yeah, I know.

134
00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:59,480
I know.

135
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,800
I would never done it otherwise, because it just simply wasn't on my radar.

136
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,200
Yeah.

137
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,120
And so you had already known about blockchain, you just hadn't really plugged into the Web3

138
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,120
community.

139
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:11,120
Correct.

140
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:12,120
Correct.

141
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,120
Got it.

142
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,320
One of the things that one of the things I looked at, I never really thought, I mean,

143
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,360
everybody talks about blockchain from a from a from a technology standpoint.

144
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,760
There's really nothing you can't do on the blockchain.

145
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:27,480
You can't do it regular, regular, you know, you know, tech stacks.

146
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:28,480
It's just another name.

147
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,680
I regard blockchain as any other tech stack that I would use, whether it's audio networking

148
00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:36,240
or, you know, database or whatever.

149
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,140
It's just not a piece of tech.

150
00:09:38,140 --> 00:09:40,280
So we're not in that regard.

151
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:46,880
I never really thought that I would want to do a game, you know, quote unquote, crypto

152
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,320
game just for that purpose.

153
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:50,320
Gotcha.

154
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,320
Okay.

155
00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:57,360
So at this point in time, I have recorded that you have over 20 AIPs that you've written

156
00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,920
and you've obtained trust level three.

157
00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:00,920
Yep.

158
00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:06,040
When I when I read the excerpt on that, it basically says you're one of the most active

159
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,440
readers and a reliable contributor that makes our community great.

160
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:15,000
You can now and there's a whole list of privileges that you can you can now do almost like a

161
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,200
moderator.

162
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:18,200
So go ahead.

163
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,200
You're gonna say.

164
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,200
No, no, that's fine.

165
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,880
I was just waiting for you to pause.

166
00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:23,880
Yeah.

167
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,800
So 20 AIPs written and trust level three.

168
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:33,280
You're just a big fan or how did you how did you get to that point?

169
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,280
Funny story.

170
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:44,080
Anybody anybody who knows my history, starting from usenet, AOL, CompuServe, you know, Bix,

171
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,440
Kix, you know, Net, you know, Netscape, all those all those communities from back in the

172
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,640
day know that I even read it.

173
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:52,640
I get it.

174
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:53,640
I get involved.

175
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,400
And as a gamer, I was a gamer first before I became a game dev.

176
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,360
So I've never really forgotten my roots because, you know, communities start small and then

177
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,480
you have all the key players and you have to find all the key players and see what they

178
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,580
do, follow what they do and you create your own clusters.

179
00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:14,480
So for me, the community life was isn't anything new.

180
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:21,600
So when I joined the Ipcoin DAO and I saw the eclectic community and all the different

181
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:27,360
faces and voices and all the crazies and most serious people, it's really, really, it's

182
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:28,960
a really fun community.

183
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,760
So the more I got involved with it, the more I realized that this was a really good community

184
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,640
to be in and you can make a difference.

185
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,740
Some people breeze through communities once in a while, but discourse is the primary hub

186
00:11:41,740 --> 00:11:48,320
for the Ipcoin community, even though a lot of the Ipcoin holders don't go through there.

187
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,880
It's the main hub and it's where most of the activity originates from.

188
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,680
So for me, because when I do so, I always say that if you're going to do something,

189
00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:01,160
do it right.

190
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:02,600
I value my time.

191
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,920
I value the time that I spend with people and my contributions.

192
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,120
And I figured that if I was going to make a difference, I had to be part and parcel

193
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,280
of that and you can do that by just showing up when you feel like it.

194
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,280
You just have to show up and participate.

195
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:22,920
And that's how I ended up with all these accolades and all these AIPs and all the noise and craziness

196
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:23,920
that goes with it.

197
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:24,920
Be part of the solution.

198
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:25,920
Yeah.

199
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,920
Well, and also part of the problem.

200
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:28,920
Yeah.

201
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:29,920
Yeah.

202
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:30,920
Someone definitely described you as that.

203
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:31,920
No doubt.

204
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:32,920
Oh yeah.

205
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:33,920
Oh yeah.

206
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:34,920
Oh yeah.

207
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:35,920
I'm the old man in the...

208
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,040
I'm the old man in the DAO who yells at clouds consistently, but everybody listens.

209
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,040
Which is a good thing.

210
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,040
Yeah.

211
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,040
It kind of reminds me of what...

212
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,040
If they don't listen to you, that's bad.

213
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,560
When they listen to you, you're probably doing something right.

214
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:48,560
Yeah.

215
00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:56,000
Oh, I can't remember if it was Aristotle or Socrates who they ended up executing because

216
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,040
he kept saying like, you got to be careful about, I think it was Socrates.

217
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,040
Yeah.

218
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,040
Yeah.

219
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:08,040
The one who kind of warned against the oligarchy and how they were kind of subverting democracy

220
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,400
and then they execute him for it.

221
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,200
That sort of thing.

222
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:18,920
But that's the image I got a couple of BOTBs ago on Saturday when you had said, hey, I

223
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:25,600
know no one's talking about this, but if you read the quarterly report, if you minus the

224
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,480
liabilities from the revenue, you'll see that we are far in the red.

225
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,760
And that wasn't even taken into account in the banana bill that had just passed.

226
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,600
And then it was like a pen dropped.

227
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:41,520
And everyone's like, oh, I think it was Aaron who said, can you run that by me again?

228
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,640
And you kind of explained the metrics, which I imported some of that here so that we could

229
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,040
go over a little bit what that means, because that's a lesson that I want.

230
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:57,480
I mean, it's an iceberg that every entity that has a budget has to deal with is liabilities,

231
00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,080
revenue.

232
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,720
Are you bringing in more than it's going out?

233
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,720
Yeah.

234
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,320
And that's something that sandbox DAO will have to face as well, one way or another,

235
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,400
whether we proactively do it or reactively do it, as I think you're going to get into

236
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,920
with how the ApecoinDAO has done it.

237
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:18,920
So cool.

238
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,480
So you're very much a person.

239
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,400
You're just, when you see it, you go in it all the way.

240
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:31,120
And in this case, you become very heavily involved in the ApecoinDAO and just couldn't

241
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:32,120
help yourself.

242
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,680
I see.

243
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,720
That's an understatement.

244
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,360
Yeah, no doubt it is.

245
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:47,080
So explain for, and just as a, this might seem like a weird question, but what is the

246
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,480
ApecoinDAO?

247
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,980
And I'll preface by saying May 28th was when the sandbox DAO came out of nowhere.

248
00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:56,080
No warning, no nothing.

249
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,080
It was May 28th.

250
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,440
Hey, there's a DAO now.

251
00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,440
May 29th.

252
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,360
Hey, there are three sips that we want the community to vote on.

253
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,560
It was this bam bam bam bam bam.

254
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,440
And we had a constitution before we even knew it and all that sort of stuff.

255
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,080
So a lot of us had no idea what a DAO was.

256
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,400
A lot of us weren't even plugged into what other DAOs were doing, like Apecoin.

257
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,020
Some of us barely even know what apes were.

258
00:15:18,020 --> 00:15:19,100
We knew what JPEGs were.

259
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:23,880
We know like the monkeys things going on and board Apeyot Club.

260
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:30,040
I'd heard of it before, but not really a good understanding of what a DAO was, much less

261
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,280
what other DAOs were doing.

262
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,920
Can you please give us an excerpt?

263
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:35,920
What is the ApecoinDAO?

264
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,920
Well, the ApecoinDAO was formed out of the Yugo IP back in 2022.

265
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:50,720
What happened was they had their token and Yugo Labs donated to the community a 1 of

266
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:59,320
1.8 and from that point on, when they formed the DAO, they also had been given a token

267
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,400
allocation with like a 1.4 billion dollar treasury.

268
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,560
So part of the token.

269
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:11,800
So the ApecoinDAO was formed as a sort of hub for the ape community to go to and to

270
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:20,200
fund their ideas and their dreams and to use this money to, well, in a word, better themselves.

271
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:26,680
And a lot of the apes are very, very creative people like you would find in most communities.

272
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,840
And this DAO was set up for them so that they could bring all their creativity and they

273
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:43,040
could build a community around the DAO based on the DAO and be able to grow together.

274
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,680
And that's precisely what they did.

275
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,400
But this was back in 2022, early 2022.

276
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,200
And that's how the DAO was born.

277
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,480
And I noticed, I reread this one again.

278
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,880
You had a Medium article called Why Yuga Had to Pivot.

279
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,880
And you said Yugo Labs isn't a gaming company.

280
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,800
It's an art culture trying to pivot into a gaming company in order to support the art

281
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:05,800
culture.

282
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:11,640
Can you connect that to, does it have any connection to the DAO at all?

283
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:12,640
Well it doesn't.

284
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,760
And even Yugo will be the first to tell you that they have a hand, they've always taken

285
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,960
a hands-off approach to the DAO anyway.

286
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,080
And it's always for legal reasons and other reasons.

287
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:30,760
But the reason I wrote that article is because a lot of our ape friends were going nuts when

288
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:37,960
Yugo announced that they had reduced the scope of the other side platform.

289
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,040
Which I play by the way.

290
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,960
A lot of people had, I mean, I've been in game development for a very, very long time.

291
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,480
I know that things change along the way.

292
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:53,080
And sometimes gamers don't like change, especially if you promise to do A and you deliver B.

293
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:58,000
It doesn't matter how good B is, it doesn't matter if B is better than A. They don't care.

294
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,560
All they care about is you promise A. I don't care about your B. So I'm used to that.

295
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:08,000
So when I saw the noise around the other side thing, I mean, it already started from when

296
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,040
the switch from Improbable M2 to Hadean and then Daniel Legri, who's from our gaming

297
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:21,080
industry was there and then he left and then they switched back to Improbable and a lot

298
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,320
of people started making noise.

299
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:28,280
And then Yugo came out and said, hey, we're not spending time and money and resources

300
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,400
to build an MMORPG that takes all this time.

301
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,400
We're not doing that.

302
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:35,400
We're doing this, this and this.

303
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,240
So I felt that a lot was lost in translation.

304
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,800
And I felt that as a member of the DAO and as a game dev and a gamer that I could better

305
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:52,840
articulate from all these three angles, why I felt they had to pivot and what the message

306
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:53,840
was.

307
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,680
And funny enough, that's precisely what they've done.

308
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:06,560
And the reason why people don't seem to understand that Yugo is an art company first and not

309
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:15,160
just pivoting to a game company, but a way of games are the entry point for any social

310
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,440
construct that has to be successful.

311
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:18,920
There's absolutely no way around it.

312
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:24,000
There's a reason why hardware manufacturers, software, they all find ways to use gaming,

313
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:30,500
whether it's e-sports, whether it's marketing, they always find a way to integrate gaming

314
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:32,120
into their marketing, into their plans.

315
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:33,580
You just can't get around it.

316
00:19:33,580 --> 00:19:40,760
So for me, it made sense that Yugo would try to use gaming as a way to keep their community

317
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,000
active, alive and engaged.

318
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,000
It makes sense.

319
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,120
And there's so much you can do with it with a JPEG.

320
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:53,880
You either look at it as your PFP or you stake it or you just farm it and recycle and make

321
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:54,920
money off of it.

322
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,640
But if you have a game and you can engage in community, there's another way to keep

323
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,800
people within the ecosystem.

324
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:08,520
It's not different from Microsoft having Xbox and software and their web platform.

325
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,240
It's a collection of assets and in this case, a collection of communities and things that

326
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,400
Yugo can share with the community to engage in, whether it's a mobile game, whether it's

327
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,600
an advanced platform like OtherSide, whether it's the collections that they've created

328
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,560
or they've bought.

329
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,400
It's all these things as a cohesive whole.

330
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:35,080
And I wrote that article because I wanted people to understand how it is that Yugo as

331
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:42,640
a startup needs to not only pivot but also to adapt to growing conditions as they grow

332
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,920
because Yugo is a startup.

333
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:51,080
People tend to forget that and startups pivot and reshape their goals and plans all the

334
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:52,080
time.

335
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,280
Those that don't are the ones that don't survive.

336
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,480
Yeah, that makes sense.

337
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:05,720
Okay, and within the community, as you mentioned, you're a community member.

338
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:06,720
What is your...

339
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,320
Do you have an unofficial role or even an official role of any kind?

340
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,440
No, I do not.

341
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:20,560
And one of the reasons why I never really wanted to be in an official role, I've never

342
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,800
been up for elections or anything like that, is because I felt that the way the DAO is

343
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:32,120
structured, any DAO, if you're one of three, one of five, one of six, one of seven, it's

344
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,160
very difficult to make a difference.

345
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,520
In teams, there's no I in team.

346
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:39,520
It's a team effort.

347
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:45,160
But because everybody tries to push this whole decentralization, which to me is a fallacy,

348
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,400
by the way, people will try to push this whole decentralization of DAOs and you can have

349
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,760
this person do this.

350
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,200
It just simply doesn't work.

351
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,200
No matter how you structure a DAO, you have to structure it as a team.

352
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:05,040
If you have seven people in one particular, say, group, whether they're special counsel,

353
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:10,580
as we call them, in our DAO or they're stewards and governance working group, they're all

354
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:12,600
a part of a team.

355
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,000
And even if they're decentralized, you still have to be a part of that team.

356
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,040
You have to be...

357
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,600
It has to be a cohesive whole.

358
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,720
I felt that I was better off on the outside looking in because on the outside, I can yell

359
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,960
without any ramifications.

360
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:31,920
Being on the inside, I can't yell.

361
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,360
I have to tour the line and I have to...

362
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:40,940
Whether you're a team player or not, I've always felt that the team is only as strong

363
00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:43,640
as the collective voice.

364
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,160
It doesn't help if you have five people wanting to go left and you have one or two people

365
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,160
want to go right.

366
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,640
You're just headed for disaster.

367
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,320
And in the end, even if you compromise, you might compromise against your better judgment.

368
00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:01,880
So I felt that being on the outside, because the community votes from people in our community

369
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,760
in these positions, I felt that a voice like mine and a voice like others like mine who

370
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:13,040
don't want to be in a position are better off being on the outside shaping the community,

371
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,900
showing what can be better, what we can do better, how we can adapt, how we can grow.

372
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,360
And those who are coming into these leadership positions can better learn.

373
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,680
A lot of people don't seem to understand that you can actually do better from the outside

374
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,880
than you can from the inside, in the Muslim communities.

375
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:30,880
Yeah.

376
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:31,880
Yeah.

377
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,040
There's a certain degree of separation that affords you the freedom, flexibility, and

378
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,960
just simply the clean conscience of knowing I'm not beholden to anything.

379
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,320
There's no conflict of interest that starts creeping in on things.

380
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,800
That makes sense.

381
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,800
Correct.

382
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,120
Absolutely correct.

383
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,040
Makes sense.

384
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,120
So let's get into the analytics.

385
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:59,000
The first thing I pulled was DAO based AI analytics on the Apecoin DAO.

386
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,420
And some of these numbers, DAO based is still trying to get some of its development right.

387
00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:12,440
But what they do have right is the token holders, 153,000 token holders, 298 proposals, which

388
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:13,640
I think is way low.

389
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,080
I think we're at 400 something now.

390
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,080
Yeah.

391
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,800
Well, some of them are withdrawn.

392
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,600
So you could have, we're up to 580 or something.

393
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,160
So some of them either get withdrawn or they never really make it to admin review.

394
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:32,920
Sometimes people start their proposals and they abandon them for whatever reason.

395
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:33,920
Fair.

396
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,160
So last I checked, we were at AIP 486.

397
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,240
That might have changed since I built this last week.

398
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,700
And 9,800 voters.

399
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:49,200
So quite a bit of activity.

400
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,120
Probably one of the largest and most active DAOs that I've seen.

401
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:59,680
I don't know if there is a DAO that has more proposals than the Apecoin DAO at this point.

402
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,400
It's pretty fascinating just to read through them and see the history.

403
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,480
And can you give me a brief overview?

404
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,400
I found four sources of data, the transparency report, the DAO progress report.

405
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,200
Oh, I already said the transparency report.

406
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,560
So transparency report, progress report, and quarterly report.

407
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,560
All right.

408
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,480
Where do you draw your data from?

409
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,240
Well I draw my data from the actual, for all three of them.

410
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:33,880
Because sometimes, even though these accounts are audited on their end, sometimes you will

411
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:39,360
find that there's some missing pieces that you have to draw your own conclusions.

412
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:44,880
For example, when I wrote about a week ago, a lot of people were sending me messages about

413
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,440
my analysis about how the DAO was out of money because I use the term going concern.

414
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:55,800
A lot of people didn't even bother to go to chat GPT or to Google to find out what going

415
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:56,800
concern meant.

416
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,480
They just assumed when I said the DAO is out of money that there was zero dollars in the

417
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:02,880
treasury, which is not correct.

418
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,320
You're familiar with the term going concern.

419
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,200
So I did a follow up.

420
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:13,660
And in doing that follow up, which was actually prompted by a thread that one of our ex special

421
00:26:13,660 --> 00:26:21,540
council members, Captain Trippi, had put up on X, gave me the idea to also do a deep dive

422
00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:28,760
into how much money the DAO actually has between now and then and how much tokens we had left.

423
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:34,620
And it occurred to me that my numbers, not only were they accurate, I also did a drill

424
00:26:34,620 --> 00:26:38,320
down on how the DAO was making money.

425
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,880
Actually it's not because the DAO has zero revenue.

426
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,120
Yeah, that was very obvious to me just by looking at the dashboard.

427
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:46,120
Yes.

428
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:47,120
Oh my gosh.

429
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:48,120
Yeah.

430
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,400
A lot of people don't realize that the DAO wasn't set up to generate revenue.

431
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,800
They created a DAO as a grant system to the community.

432
00:26:54,800 --> 00:27:00,680
So when they all started this whole thing, nobody thought that, oh wait, if we keep giving

433
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,120
money away, there's going to be a point where there's not going to be anything left.

434
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:09,960
And funny enough, this whole thing came to a head back in November when I kept writing

435
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,560
articles on X and on our discourse saying, hey guys, if we don't start figuring out ways

436
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,040
to make money, we're going to run out of money.

437
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,240
People just ignored it.

438
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:27,280
And so when this quarterly report dropped for Q1-24 and I took a look at it, I was very

439
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,560
shocked.

440
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,980
So I ran those numbers so that we had about taken into account the banana bill.

441
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:36,100
We had about $100 million left.

442
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:42,360
And then I extrapolated from the token unlocks based on how much DAO is getting every month,

443
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,560
about 7,000 tokens.

444
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:52,160
I extrapolated about how much the UGA and the founders and the UGA labs had left and

445
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,640
discovered that most of the pain of the unlocks were already passed.

446
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:04,320
So most of the unlocks left now are what's left for the DAO, which ends in 2026, I believe,

447
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,300
and some of the UGA labs and the founders.

448
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:13,360
So basically, if the DAO doesn't start making money, yesterday, we're going to run out of

449
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,720
money and I calculate as of today, before this session, I calculated in 14 months we

450
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:26,200
had the money, like as in $0 because we're getting 7,000 tokens unlocked every month.

451
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:33,440
The token value is depreciated heavily, as you know, and with 7,000 unlocked and no investments

452
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,840
and committed to accounts payable and the upcoming proposals, the DAO is not going to

453
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,000
be able to pay for those proposals based on 7,000 tokens per month, which means it's basically

454
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,120
no longer going concern in 14 months.

455
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,120
That's a scary number.

456
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,120
It is.

457
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,000
Some people might think 14 months is a long time.

458
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,000
It is not.

459
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,000
It is not.

460
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,000
It is absolutely not.

461
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,000
It is not.

462
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,080
And the thing about it is, and the reason why I mentioned the bulls on the block is

463
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,200
because a lot of people don't pay attention to this stuff.

464
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,520
What's the motto?

465
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,440
Apes don't read or something like that?

466
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,280
Yes, apes don't read.

467
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:19,200
And the thing about it is, and I have to mention this, the unfortunate thing about our community

468
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:27,120
is very few want to talk about the bad news because nobody wants to be the one tilting

469
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,120
the applecrap.

470
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,120
Yeah, like the bad vibes and everything.

471
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,120
Yeah, the bad vibes.

472
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,120
Yes, yes, yes.

473
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,720
So myself and one or two others will always opine on these things and we get very little

474
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,600
traction, but we do get a lot of messages.

475
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,600
I mean, you'd be surprised.

476
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,520
I mean, DMs we get through in the back channels because nobody wants to say anything because

477
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,840
the way the Dow is, you guys will find this on your end as well, depending on how your

478
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:48,840
Dow is set up.

479
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,080
But most people who come to the Dow come for one specific reason, to get the proposals

480
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,000
passed, to get some money, to go, Nick, do some business or whatever.

481
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,280
So you're not going to get that far by being the unpopular dude who says, hey, we're out

482
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,560
of money or hey, this doesn't look right or hey, this smells funny.

483
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,080
People watch that and the next thing you know, you probably have an AIP go up and everybody

484
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,460
votes it down because you're the Debbie Downer.

485
00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:18,360
So you run that risk.

486
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,160
So most people don't speak about anything that doesn't look right.

487
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,000
So some of us just do it because we can and because we don't want anything from the Dow.

488
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:38,480
So the give me those initial numbers one more time.

489
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,480
How much is going in?

490
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:40,480
How much is going out?

491
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:41,480
You said 500k?

492
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:42,480
I'll tell you right now.

493
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:50,460
You already have this on the report where, you know, we had 326 million in AIP in treasury.

494
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:55,560
We had 255k in accounts payable.

495
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,240
We had 59 million reserved for grants.

496
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:08,680
And as of now, when we look at the token unlocks, the Dow has about 100 million dollars, 100

497
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,460
million left to unlock a worth of tokens, assuming the token price holds, which when

498
00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:16,040
I checked it, it was at $68.

499
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,120
You know, 68 to a dollar.

500
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,880
So by that calculation, we had 100 million dollars left in unlocks.

501
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,440
That's basically it added to what we have already.

502
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,960
100 million AIP, right?

503
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:29,960
Yep.

504
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:30,960
100 million.

505
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:31,960
No, $100 million.

506
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:32,960
$100 million.

507
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:33,960
Okay.

508
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,440
100 million US dollars left to unlock.

509
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,800
And when you say left to unlock, what does unlock mean?

510
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:46,760
Well, unlock means when they did the token allocations, some of the tokens were not unlocked

511
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,160
to be spent or converted.

512
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,160
So tokens?

513
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,160
Yes.

514
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:55,880
So they're all vest, they have vesting periods, cliffs, the whole nine yards, which is and

515
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:02,720
the treasury, the investors, the community AIP set like 150 million, Yuga Labs, Yuga

516
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:08,200
Labs founders, they all had tokens with vesting periods and cliffs.

517
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,000
And those unlock over time.

518
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,400
And part of those unlocks are the Dow's own tokens.

519
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,920
So the Dow can have some 7 million tokens a month.

520
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:24,000
It's up to them whether or not they want to use them or leave them locked.

521
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,640
I mean, they can leave them locked, but they can do whatever they want with them whenever

522
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:33,760
they're ready, which works out to about $5.5 million a month if you do the USD based on

523
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,960
68 cents at the time when I did this math, this calculations.

524
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:37,960
Yeah.

525
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:38,960
You're not far off right now.

526
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,160
It's 0.7, it's 75 cents right now trading.

527
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Yeah.

528
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,160
So yeah.

529
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:51,200
So the you said there's 7,008 tokens unlocking every month, I can give you the exact number.

530
00:32:51,200 --> 00:33:02,800
The Dow has exactly hang on 7.3 million tokens per month.

531
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:03,800
Billions.

532
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,800
Okay.

533
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,800
Now I get it.

534
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:06,800
Now I get it.

535
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,320
Million, million, million, million, the actual number 7343750.

536
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,840
That trend is that's red alert right there.

537
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,040
Yeah, it is.

538
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,040
It is.

539
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,960
Oh my gosh.

540
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,000
If anyone who is an entrepreneur, you're a mathematician or an accountant, like you

541
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,520
will instantly realize just the data, the numbers are not going in the right direction

542
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:29,520
on that one.

543
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:35,440
Well, hey, it's worse than it's worse than it sounds because the Dow has 18 months left

544
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:41,920
of all logs, which comes out to about hundred and 32 million tokens.

545
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,040
hundred and 32 million tokens left to unlock for the next 18 months.

546
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,040
Yes.

547
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,040
Okay, right.

548
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,040
Gotcha.

549
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:55,480
You're gonna be out of money in 14.

550
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,760
Well let me let me give you a little let me give you a little a little nuance here.

551
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:06,520
Remember the doubt is allocated 100 million to the banana bill back on July 4th.

552
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:14,480
So we basically allocated pretty much all our unlocks to the run on bill, which is 100

553
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:15,880
million.

554
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,880
Think about that.

555
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,340
So the 18 months runway, which is about 100 million dollars, we're just allocated that

556
00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:24,260
to one initiative, the banana bill.

557
00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:28,660
And that banana bill has to have to turn that hundred million dollars.

558
00:34:28,660 --> 00:34:32,800
Not only do they have to recoup that hundred million dollars, they have to turn a profit

559
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,040
because it's supposed to be a revenue generating initiative.

560
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:41,640
That's the scary part that nobody pays attention to.

561
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,060
Well you I am quite certain that your voice will not be the only one that grows louder

562
00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:48,120
and louder on that.

563
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,280
There's this the numbers just are not yikes.

564
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:54,280
That's not good.

565
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,820
Yeah, the other yikes is that's just q 124.

566
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:59,960
We haven't we don't have the q two and q three numbers yet.

567
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:06,760
And when those numbers drop, because the banana bill was funded in q three, July.

568
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,040
So when those numbers fall, and we see q two and q three, I know it's going to paint an

569
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,360
even more dire picture because again, the Dow is not generating any revenue.

570
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,360
Right.

571
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,360
Right.

572
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,040
So there's no expectation that we're going to see more money come in other than the seven

573
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,640
million token this five point five million dollars per month going into the into the

574
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,600
Treasury via the unlocks.

575
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:36,640
But you know, if you if you if you get in 5.5 million, and you're spending over 3040

576
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,720
million dollars a month, I mean, you're already in a negative before you even breathe.

577
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:46,400
Yeah, y'all are y'all are definitely in the negative right now.

578
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,160
So you gotta you gotta make that banana bill work.

579
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,560
Or to make it make more bananas.

580
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,240
I'm confident I'm confident there there there will be some good things coming out of there.

581
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,480
Just how how how it happens.

582
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,320
And whether or not I mean, everybody knows that most investments lose.

583
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,000
So if you get by there were three trends, and you say we're going to lose nine, we stand

584
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,880
a chance of losing 90% of 100 million dollars.

585
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,780
Nobody wants to talk about that because 90% loss is actually the metric right now.

586
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:22,200
So you can basically say the best we can do is at least not lose 50% of it.

587
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,200
Gotcha.

588
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,200
Gotcha.

589
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,880
Well, you're I ran some numbers on on your market cap.

590
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,720
I say you are market cap.

591
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:40,440
In April 2022, the market cap was 25.97 billion total supply, right?

592
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:49,080
As of two months ago, it had depreciated 96% down to 843 million.

593
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,080
Oh, yeah.

594
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:51,080
But that's right.

595
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:57,760
Also, because remember that the Dow had an initial treasury of 1.4 billion when it started

596
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:06,160
out 1.4 billion with a B. Now we're like 200 million.

597
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:13,200
Wow, lessons learned, huh?

598
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,200
Lessons learned indeed.

599
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:21,540
Yeah, the way I look at it, the way I see it is it's it's only bad if you assume that

600
00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:25,600
the Dow was set up to be a profit business.

601
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,600
It wasn't.

602
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,960
It was set up to be a grants Dow and somewhere along the line.

603
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,360
I'm not sure how they figured that they were going to keep giving money away without running

604
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,360
out of money.

605
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,360
I don't know.

606
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:37,360
Nobody nobody has answered.

607
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,040
Give me a good answer to that.

608
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,560
But that's basically the same situation sandbox is in right now.

609
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,480
The sandbox has committed to a yearly budget of about 15 million.

610
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,160
Twenty five million sand.

611
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,560
It's going to give the budget every December.

612
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,520
But as we as some of us have noted, if you pay attention to some of the numbers that

613
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,240
sandbox are running, they we don't think they're turning a profit yet, even though they're

614
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:07,280
still cash positive because of their their series fund that they raised.

615
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,640
But we I don't want to rely on sandbox forever and ever giving us an endowment.

616
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:13,640
I think that's a plan.

617
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,120
I think that's playing to fail.

618
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:16,120
Yeah.

619
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:17,120
Oh, yeah.

620
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,120
Relying on that.

621
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,480
So that's that's some of the things that and especially one of the reasons why I had you

622
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:29,040
on today was to enunciate that where you are now is where we could be now if we don't take

623
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,320
lessons learned and where you were.

624
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,080
And when the beginning sounds a whole lot like where we were or where we are right now

625
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,080
in the beginning.

626
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,080
Correct.

627
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,520
And you guys are three, you guys are similar.

628
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:41,800
You guys are three months old.

629
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,840
So you have plenty of time to figure this out.

630
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,440
If you live it to the last minute, you're not going to make it.

631
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,200
See, I'm I'm heavy.

632
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,720
I regret not even I am hesitant to even say that.

633
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:58,840
Because if you say that, then you give us license to just let kick the can down the

634
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,560
road and down and down and down until suddenly, oh, my gosh, right.

635
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,560
It's true.

636
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:07,560
Yeah.

637
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,560
So, yeah.

638
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,600
Anyways, this lamenting.

639
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,520
So I think you paint a very clear picture of the Dallas finances at this point.

640
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,440
And for one point, four billion treasury to start at the time, it was three hundred twenty

641
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:24,440
six million.

642
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,960
I think you just said it was two hundred million left.

643
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,560
Yep.

644
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,360
So about two hundred million now.

645
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:40,600
Left and two hundred twenty five thousand in the accounts payable, fifty nine million

646
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:48,280
reserve for grants and the hundred million for banana bill has spoken for the remaining

647
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,720
one hundred million eight that's left to unlock.

648
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:55,480
So you do or die moments.

649
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,480
What it is.

650
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,560
I think what's going to happen is right now, it's basically a case of trying to figure

651
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,800
out how to cut costs.

652
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:13,000
We've taken some some costs, cutting measures whereby the two hundred fifty thousand thing.

653
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Yeah.

654
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,680
And sixty nine percent threshold passing.

655
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,960
But that's that's really neither here nor there, because most of the delegates who vote

656
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,520
for these things are friends or friends.

657
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,600
They're all in the friends and family program.

658
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:31,080
So I think that two fifty K plus sixty nine percent is only going to affect the smaller

659
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,400
guys, not the guys who are deep into the ecosystem.

660
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,040
I know people who know people who know delegates.

661
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,240
But there are lots of there are lots of costs, costs and measures.

662
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:47,520
I mean, right now I have three unpopular proposals going through where I'm shutting down.

663
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,160
Well, I'm trying to shut down three working groups that are costing the doubt through

664
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,560
me all year because most of the guys are just having no show jobs except for one or two

665
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,640
of them.

666
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,600
So I was listening to you as you explained that to the whole team and yet another pin

667
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,600
drop that.

668
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:03,600
Yeah.

669
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,040
Derek, are you sure you want to do?

670
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,040
Yeah.

671
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,200
But when you explained it out a little bit, it made a lot more sense that you're not talking

672
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:15,040
about like shutting down Markham's and not there's a lot of other stuff that that people

673
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,680
brought up as concerns like that's not if you pay attention to the words of your proposal,

674
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,040
they're not so draconian.

675
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,120
They're just applying analytical math to we can't keep this going.

676
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,120
Correct.

677
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,120
We can't be like this.

678
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,120
Correct.

679
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,240
I mean, for one thing, one of the savings this is the lesson you guys will learn on

680
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:42,840
your end as well is don't put people in positions where they are paid without KPIs and OKRs

681
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,840
and there's no there's no structure in place to replace them.

682
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,920
Right now, I'm not going to name names, but we have people in these Dow positions pulling

683
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,720
over 9K per month and they don't show up to do anything.

684
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:00,980
They simply don't show up and you can't remove them.

685
00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:02,640
So these are lessons you have to learn.

686
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,720
You have to put in you have to put in, you know, procedures and processes so that if

687
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:12,760
you have if you elect somebody into position into position, you can actually remove them

688
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,680
because guess what's going to happen?

689
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:20,520
The Dow votes these people in by the popular vote, which is already bad as it is because

690
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,600
it's not one to one.

691
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,720
It's based on how many, you know, ape tokens you have in a wallet.

692
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:31,300
So when you vote these people in, their friends vote them in.

693
00:42:31,300 --> 00:42:35,320
So if you try to kick them out, their friends are going to vote for them again and kill

694
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,360
the vote.

695
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:38,980
So we have that.

696
00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:41,200
So it doesn't make any sense.

697
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:47,220
You have to put in controls whereby you can actually remove people for cause without having

698
00:42:47,220 --> 00:42:50,920
to run the risk of going through a vote again.

699
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,160
And then their friends come back and say, no, no, no, we still want them there.

700
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,600
And they're going then collect the paycheck for doing nothing.

701
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,720
And these proposals, by the way, the other thing I the other thing is you don't most

702
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:05,280
of the positions you don't need to have people on staff spending three million dollars a

703
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:11,640
year when you can hire third parties on as needed basis and pay less.

704
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:17,280
And those third party companies and teams, whether it's for web development, whether

705
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:23,640
it's for marketing communications, whether it's for analytics, those people want your

706
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:24,640
business.

707
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:29,840
So they're going to they're going to do everything they can to make sure they adhere to OKRs

708
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,640
and and KPIs or they lose your business or you send this in an invoice.

709
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,800
They get paid and you find somebody else.

710
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,000
They don't go to a good job.

711
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,600
But when you vote people in this position, you don't have that luxury.

712
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,120
And so people can basically not show up for anything.

713
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,840
That's the reason why I'm trying to close it through working groups.

714
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:54,080
The Dow can go hire people in this position the same way they hire attorneys and accountants

715
00:43:54,080 --> 00:44:00,520
and all the other service providers that we can hire without going through a voting process

716
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,520
that saves money and it brings accountability and transparency.

717
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,000
So you're talking bring accountability.

718
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,920
Don't put people in position without KPIs, key performance indicators and then enforceability.

719
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,120
You need to put in controls into place to remove people for cause if need be.

720
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,120
Correct.

721
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,120
Correct.

722
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,120
Correct.

723
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:25,160
You have to be able to say, so we voted you in, but the special counsel or whoever is

724
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:31,880
on top of your top tier should have the authority based on a vote amongst themselves, of course,

725
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,640
to remove those people.

726
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,900
Otherwise you cannot rely on the voting system to remove them if it's the voting system by

727
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:43,280
popular demand to put them there because they're just going to get all their friends who voted

728
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,760
for them in the first place to vote for them to keep their jobs.

729
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,760
Then you're stuck.

730
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,960
The interesting thing that's happening right now in sandbox is delegations were just announced

731
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,600
by the Dow administrator.

732
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,160
They're taking a different approach though.

733
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,440
The delegation are closed delegations.

734
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,600
You have to apply to have a delegation and then you have to, in order to be accepted,

735
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,960
you have to, as of this moment, accept a code of conduct and there's different rules.

736
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:13,960
You're not allowed to get paid.

737
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,040
You have to announce when there's conflicts of interest.

738
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:23,000
Otherwise your delegated license, I guess, will be revoked.

739
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,960
And so it's starting to feel like a very high bar.

740
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:35,400
The most interesting one of which is if you're a delegation or if you are a delegate, you

741
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,000
are not allowed to propose improvement proposals.

742
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,700
Well, that's hilarious.

743
00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:41,200
We don't have any of that.

744
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,080
And that's the right way to do it.

745
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,200
Right now, anybody in the special counsel, anybody in our governance working group, any

746
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,000
steward can put up a proposal.

747
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,680
There's a whole bunch of back behind the scenes deals going on.

748
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,600
Nobody knows what the hell's going on because you can't ask any questions.

749
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:55,600
There's no transparency.

750
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:56,600
There's no accountability.

751
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,040
You can't do anything.

752
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,240
And right now I have a proposal.

753
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:07,280
Another guy has a proposal that deals with transparency and accountability so that anybody

754
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:14,160
in that gets paid by the Dow who puts up a proposal or there's a proposal coming through,

755
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,200
they have to disclose that they are affiliated in some way, whether they work for them, they

756
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,720
work for them, they get all these things.

757
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:23,080
We don't have those controls.

758
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,400
And now we're going to try and pass those two proposals.

759
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,160
Maybe they pass and we'll have some of those controls, but we don't have any of those.

760
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,120
So you guys are doing the right thing.

761
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,640
That's just you agree with that.

762
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:34,640
I do agree with that.

763
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,480
I absolutely agree with that because you need to have controls.

764
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,680
Without controls, you lose control.

765
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,200
That's basically how it works.

766
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:43,200
Okay.

767
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:48,600
What are some other some other lessons that you've seen that to a young gal like us say

768
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,680
look out for this or you should go after this?

769
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,480
Well, you guys already have the delegation part sorted out and you guys have all your

770
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:57,480
disclosures.

771
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,320
I think it's not just the delegates.

772
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:05,560
I think you should have the same disclosures and transparency with people who the Dow hires,

773
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,720
whether it's from the community, whether it's through the voting system, whether it's third

774
00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:13,360
party hires, you should always have that as well because again, you want to be able to

775
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,180
replace people who just don't act right.

776
00:47:16,180 --> 00:47:20,200
If you get stuck in a position where you can't do that, then you just have bad actors in

777
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:25,720
positions and not only you're wasting money, but you're not getting anything done.

778
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:29,840
So you're talking the special counsel, the advisory board, the Dow administrative team.

779
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,320
The whole nine yards, the whole nine yards.

780
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:39,120
And you want to also one of the things that we ran into last year was I tried to dissolve

781
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:45,500
the entire special counsel because I felt that they weren't being transparent.

782
00:47:45,500 --> 00:47:47,240
There was no accountability.

783
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:48,240
That didn't go down very well.

784
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,240
I'm sorry, I see you're locked in.

785
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:52,240
Hang on.

786
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:57,400
I guess it's every funnier than that because another good friend of mine actually tried

787
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:58,400
to reduce their salaries.

788
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,400
In the business of making friends, are you, Derek?

789
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:02,400
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

790
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:03,400
Hang on.

791
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:09,120
This one guy tried to have the special counsel salaries reduced because when the world found

792
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,300
out that we were paying them a significant amount of money for basically a part time

793
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:15,360
gig, it made news.

794
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,360
It was on the block.

795
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,360
How much did they get paid?

796
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,240
Oh, they were getting paid like, I think it was like, I mean, if I remember, it tells

797
00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,800
me right, I think special counsel is making like $200 a year around five of them, something

798
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:26,800
like that.

799
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:27,800
Don't quote me.

800
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:28,800
I have to go look up the old numbers.

801
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:29,800
Okay, that's fine.

802
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:30,800
I can always go to it later.

803
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,280
But it made the news.

804
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,560
So this one guy wrote a proposal.

805
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:36,560
Get this.

806
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,440
This one guy wrote, bless his heart.

807
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:44,760
He wrote a proposal to reduce the special counsel salary and they kicked it back and

808
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:50,400
said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do that because we will be violating contracts

809
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:57,040
in agreements that we signed, which means which means the Dow, the special counsel that

810
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:06,520
works at the behest of the Dow, the Dow pays the special counsel, but the Dow can't adjust

811
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:12,240
the special counsel's salary because the special counsel not claims that they would be in breach

812
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:13,240
of agreement.

813
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:16,400
So they return the proposal for reconstruction.

814
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,360
No, you can't do that.

815
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,440
So basically $20,000 per month per month.

816
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:23,440
There you go.

817
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:24,440
Yes.

818
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:25,440
Per month.

819
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,440
But only smokes.

820
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,880
I'm reading a coin desk article on it.

821
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,080
Oh, that's the one.

822
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,120
It was a, it was an entire fiasco.

823
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,640
So right now we have a special council in June of this year.

824
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:41,640
Oh, yeah, we can fire them and we can't change the salaries.

825
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:42,800
So we're basically stuck.

826
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,760
So if you get voted into a special counsel role, you're literally stuck there through

827
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,320
the next election.

828
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,340
Nobody can get rid of you.

829
00:49:51,340 --> 00:49:54,320
Nobody can reduce the salary.

830
00:49:54,320 --> 00:50:00,680
We did have one proposal that was written up by one of the special counsels to adjust

831
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:09,040
their salaries by half, I believe, and the rest was to be vested or something like that.

832
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:14,160
That passed with flying colors because everyone that was like, oh, yeah, this is good.

833
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:19,280
So we've kind of reduced that salary a bit, but it's quite hilarious that you can put

834
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,400
people in positions that you can't get rid of them and you can't change the salaries.

835
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,880
Basically we have kings now.

836
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,280
That's a pretty incredible figure.

837
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:30,760
I'll give you that.

838
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,120
250 grand a year.

839
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,120
That's what that is.

840
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,120
Yes.

841
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:36,120
Each.

842
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,240
Well, we're part time gig.

843
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,000
But you know what's funny?

844
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,120
You know how this whole thing started?

845
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:48,200
This whole thing started because we had guys like Alexis Ohanian was part of the special

846
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:49,200
counsel.

847
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:50,840
Yatsu was part of the special counsel.

848
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,560
So these are big names.

849
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,360
So they had those big salaries.

850
00:50:54,360 --> 00:51:00,600
So when they exited the special counsel, nobody thought, well, wait, if you have someone like

851
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:07,240
Alex, you know, Alexis, and then you go hire Joe Blow, who's just a plumber, maybe you

852
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:11,760
don't want to give Joe Blow 20 grand a month just because you were giving Alexis 20 grand

853
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:12,760
a month.

854
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:13,760
Nobody thought about that.

855
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,080
So they just left the salaries as they were.

856
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:23,800
So we're from Alexis to Joe the plumber with 20 grand a month.

857
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,360
It just stayed that way.

858
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:27,360
OK.

859
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:28,360
That's fascinating.

860
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:37,360
Our special counsel gets 100,000 sand a year, which is like what, five cents or something

861
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:38,360
right now.

862
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,520
It's 40, 40 something cents, 36 cents.

863
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:42,680
Oh, nice.

864
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,720
So he's rich then.

865
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:45,720
He's rich.

866
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:47,760
He's rich, I guess.

867
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:48,760
Yeah.

868
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,560
So that's our special counsel, of which there are five of them.

869
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,720
One of them is Yatsu.

870
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:59,920
And then we have the founder of Grail and quite a number of big names in there.

871
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,440
But they get reelected.

872
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,720
They get reelected December 2025.

873
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:07,840
And how long are your terms?

874
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:08,840
One year terms after that.

875
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:09,840
They're one year.

876
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:10,840
OK, that's cool.

877
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:11,840
That's cool.

878
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,840
You all not have one year terms?

879
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:13,840
Yeah, we do.

880
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,840
We have six months and we have one year terms.

881
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,320
Of course, we're trying to we're trying to change all that.

882
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,920
Now we're trying to we're trying to unify all the terms because sometimes you end up

883
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:29,320
in a situation where you have people come in for six months and by the time their six

884
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,200
months is up, they haven't done anything much of their programs or their plans and goals

885
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:34,200
they had.

886
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,240
And next thing you know, there's another election.

887
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:41,080
So we're trying to I actually have a proposal trying to fix that to unify all the terms

888
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:47,040
to be one year and to give these new people coming in and also to be able to keep the

889
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,880
pre-existing people in place so that we don't have to keep reinventing the wheel every six

890
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,320
months or every year.

891
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:54,800
And for a pound, aren't you?

892
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:55,800
My God.

893
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,680
Like I said, I have I currently have 16 proposals going through.

894
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:01,680
I can't wait.

895
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:02,680
Oh, nice.

896
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:09,480
I have so I have five that have actually submitted and have 18 on on the that I plan to write.

897
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:10,480
Nice.

898
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:11,880
I have two within the wings.

899
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,840
One of them is going to be superbly popular.

900
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,600
It's the kill the apes taking contract.

901
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:17,600
Oh, yeah.

902
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,400
I've heard you talk about that a number of times.

903
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,360
We have a very large robust taking program.

904
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,400
I know we're going to go here in a few minutes.

905
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,280
So maybe we'll end on this.

906
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:32,600
What staking programs you have said that you can prove that is mathematically a burden

907
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:33,600
on the system.

908
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:34,600
I'm very robust.

909
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:39,120
So tell me about that.

910
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,760
Why why aren't you in favor?

911
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:47,720
Well for one thing, it continues to bleed the Treasury and it doesn't help anyone.

912
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:51,680
And even the guys who are staking, they're getting like pennies on the dollar now.

913
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,240
So it absolutely makes no sense.

914
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:55,000
It's not beneficial to anyone.

915
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,320
It's just a strain in the Treasury for one.

916
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:03,040
And two, it doesn't incentivize people as they used to because of the value of the token.

917
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:09,000
So I actually when my proposal goes up, I'm going to have all the charts, all the numbers

918
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,000
and everything in there.

919
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,000
Right now.

920
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,280
I actually have a discussion where I said we should kill staking lol just to see how

921
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,880
much hate I get.

922
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:25,240
You must be a popular person, Derek.

923
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:26,240
That's okay.

924
00:54:26,240 --> 00:54:35,520
I have quite an affinity with you on that because some of my background is the uncomfortable

925
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:42,920
truth of mathematics and how it sometimes comes across as a kind of rainy day parade.

926
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,000
But if you ignore it, you ignore it, you're a peril.

927
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,000
Absolutely.

928
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,000
Absolutely.

929
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,600
And again, remember our community.

930
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:51,600
I love my community.

931
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:52,600
Don't get me wrong.

932
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,200
I mean, they're a bunch of nutters, but you know, I love them.

933
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:57,200
We all get it.

934
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:58,200
We get together.

935
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,200
We fight.

936
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:00,200
We argue.

937
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:01,200
We fuss.

938
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:02,200
But in the end, it's a community.

939
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:07,320
The good thing about communities, they all have this, you know, this feel good kumbaya

940
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,600
headed in the clouds type good vibes.

941
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,200
I mean, good vibes.

942
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,640
And that's all good.

943
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,680
So nobody wants to ruin the good vibes.

944
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:15,680
But you know what?

945
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:22,300
If you sense if you if you and your community get together and say, hey, let's buy six pack

946
00:55:22,300 --> 00:55:24,340
of beers and just chill.

947
00:55:24,340 --> 00:55:28,200
And you find out that they've already maxed out the you know, the Dow credit card, you

948
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:29,620
guys aren't gonna have fun.

949
00:55:29,620 --> 00:55:34,840
Somebody has to say, hey, guys, we have to curb the spending.

950
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,540
Otherwise, this whole kumbaya thing goes away.

951
00:55:37,540 --> 00:55:39,480
Nobody's figured out that out yet.

952
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,760
That's what we are now where we're saying, hey, we need to make money.

953
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,600
Otherwise this whole kumbaya thing goes away.

954
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,280
So that's what we are.

955
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,720
And I'm the guy who says, guys, we need to look at this.

956
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:49,720
I'm not always right.

957
00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:50,720
I never professed to be right.

958
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:54,080
I mean, I've always said that, you know, if I walk into a room, I'm one of the smartest

959
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,360
guys in the room, I'm probably probably in the wrong room.

960
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:57,960
I don't want to be in the wrong room.

961
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,840
I want to be the guy who points out things that are worth talking about, because you

962
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,140
know, you can dissent all you want.

963
00:56:04,140 --> 00:56:10,400
But if you dissent for no reason, then it's just inconsequential noise.

964
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,400
You better come equipped.

965
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:12,400
Yep.

966
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:13,680
Better come equipped.

967
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,280
And you certainly do that.

968
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:16,280
So I try.

969
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:17,280
I try.

970
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,960
At DSmart, if you want to connect with them, a couple of the sandbox spaces.

971
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,480
So we have Discord, we have the DAO forums, which is just use discourse.

972
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,840
And we have Twitter, the three hashtags I normally go over.

973
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,920
But skipping over now to the sandbox spaces, Boko Verso on Mondays, Bulls on the Block

974
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:39,100
on Saturday, that coincidentally is how I met Derek, by the way.

975
00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:45,200
So if you want to yourself, they talk about sandbox and both of those places.

976
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:51,760
In addition to the 8-point DAO, you can learn a great deal by listening to what goes on

977
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,040
in those spaces.

978
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,680
You'll hear people like Derek.

979
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:05,200
You'll hear people like Aaron, Big Bull, Anthony Crypto Sheep, G, Boca Chief.

980
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:12,680
There are a lot of people who, if you listen to them week to week, you'll hear some of

981
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,240
the things that I'm bringing to you right now.

982
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:20,440
And some of the things that Derek, Derek has just brought to us, which is the uncomfortable

983
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:25,200
truth of if you pay attention to the numbers, you'll start to see a pattern emerge.

984
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:30,680
One that we have to pay attention to now as a sandbox DAO, even though we might think

985
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,720
it's a little ways off, or we might be comfortable now.

986
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,320
That's not acceptable.

987
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:36,560
We got to have a plan now.

988
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,560
Either you plan to...

989
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:39,560
You...

990
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,240
What's the phrase?

991
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,400
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

992
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,560
And that's where we are right now, the sandbox.

993
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,720
And thank you, Derek.

994
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,440
I really appreciated your time going over this.

995
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:59,680
Is there anything that closing remarks, anything that you wanted to go over or any shout outs?

996
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:00,680
Oh, no.

997
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,360
I'll just say that I wish you guys well with the DAO.

998
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,720
Just look around, do your research, don't make the mistakes that all the DAOs have made.

999
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,640
You guys have the benefit of being young, and you have the benefit of learning from

1000
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:13,520
all the mistakes they're previously made.

1001
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:19,600
So just remember, if you make money, and you want to give money away, you got to find a

1002
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,420
way to fill those coffers.

1003
00:58:21,420 --> 00:58:25,400
So find some revenue generating programs.

1004
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:30,240
And otherwise, you're going to find yourself relying on their endowment.

1005
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,960
And one day that's just going to go away and bye bye DAO.

1006
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:34,960
Yeah.

1007
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:36,840
And I don't think any of it...

1008
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:42,440
Well, some of us want that because very unhappy with the way the DAO was originated out of

1009
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,320
nowhere and it felt less like a community decision and more like a downward direction.

1010
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:53,480
That's our take on the whole progressive decentralization thing is it's come a lot more centralized.

1011
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,740
And then some people really feel negatively about that.

1012
00:58:56,740 --> 00:58:59,240
But we're definitely seeing a different path being taken.

1013
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:00,360
That's for darn sure.

1014
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:06,240
I'm seeing different paths, which brings with it different levels of accountability.

1015
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:11,540
Whereas there's a point DAO, you will have to kind of take that on yourselves.

1016
00:59:11,540 --> 00:59:15,200
And there's a lot of tension and all sorts of things.

1017
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:16,400
Thank you for your time, Derek.

1018
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,480
I don't want this to be the last time that we do a podcast because I feel like we spent

1019
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,320
half of it learning about who you are.

1020
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,880
Whereas I really think that there is a lot to be said about some of these trend rates

1021
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:33,200
that we can pull and analyses and what the story tells us to delve into the data.

1022
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,600
So I'll be looking for another opportunity in the future to invite you back on to where

1023
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,680
we can learn as things are happening.

1024
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:41,680
Absolutely.

1025
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:46,400
So always, always, always reach out to me when you want to talk and I'm always around

1026
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:47,400
and I'll see you.

1027
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,120
I'll hear you on Bulls on the Block on Saturday.

1028
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:51,120
Looking forward to it.

1029
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:52,120
See you, Derek.

1030
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:53,120
Talk to you soon.

1031
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:54,120
Bye.

1032
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:55,120
Take care.

1033
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:15,520
uent.txt