1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,880 Hello everybody. 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:10,240 Welcome to Sandel podcast number 23. 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:15,400 23 episodes into this thing. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,880 And today we have a bit of a different episode going on this time around. 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,560 It's going to be with a Davivi, so known as David. 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,580 The three is silent. 7 00:00:27,580 --> 00:00:32,080 And Davivi is from the city Dau. 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,680 It's another Dau and I'm starting kind of a mini series called Lessons from Dau's, 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:37,680 other Dau's. 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:43,280 We're going to bring in Apecoin, Dau's, but today is Davivi. 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:50,240 And I heard Davivi speak a few Saturdays ago on Bulls on the Block. 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:58,240 And Davivi came on and spoke a bit about how whoever moves first and gets the rules right 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,960 for Dau's will become one of the mainstays. 14 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,640 Whoever gets it right will become more of the permanent party within the Dau's. 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,080 And those who get it wrong will fall by the wayside, sort of become a history lesson, 16 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,520 that sort of thing. 17 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:18,600 And this was during BOTB and during the Apecoin Dau hour. 18 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,320 And what really struck me was Davivi's, the way he approached it. 19 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:28,620 It was very much a collaborative, hey, let's try and figure this out and also take lessons 20 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:30,680 learned from what I've seen. 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:37,600 And you'll hear he has a very, very experienced background, both academically, philosophically, 22 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:38,880 and experientially. 23 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,100 So Davivi, great to have you. 24 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:44,280 Thank you and welcome on the show. 25 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,280 Thanks very much. 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,280 Thanks for having me. 27 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,520 Great to be here. 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,960 So Davivi, first time he is on the show and also it might be the first time he's ever 29 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,440 even heard of us. 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:02,800 So for Sandal podcast, we are a podcast about the Sandbox Dau, educational news updates 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,120 and all the developments therein. 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,520 The scope of the talk for today is a meet and greet between Davivi and myself and the 33 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:11,520 stream. 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:17,760 And also it's a learning opportunity for us to learn about his experience and all the 35 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:24,920 things that we can apply to the Sandbox Dau as we live, learn and grow being so new. 36 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:30,160 A disclaimer, we do not represent Sandbox Game or the Sandbox Foundation, which is the 37 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,160 Dau. 38 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,520 We are not your financial or legal advisors and nothing we say should be taken as financial 39 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,120 or legal advice. 40 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,080 That's true for me for both the Sandbox Game and the Sandbox Foundation. 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:45,320 Davivi, do you represent Citidao or any other entities other than yourself? 42 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:46,680 I do not. 43 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,920 And I got to start by telling you some bad news. 44 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:51,520 Citidao is over. 45 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:52,520 Really? 46 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,520 Yep. 47 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:59,640 About three months ago, we collectively decided to return all of the funds in the treasury 48 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:01,500 to our citizens. 49 00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:03,520 So we liquidated all funds. 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,920 We had taken a snapshot before we announced this so that nobody could surreptitiously 51 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:13,180 go buy a bunch of our NFTs and then exchange them. 52 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:16,880 And then we airdropped the treasury to everybody. 53 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:17,880 Huh. 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,960 You know, in my research, I did not stumble across that one. 55 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,160 So shame on me for missing that rather large nugget. 56 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:26,960 But let's look into that. 57 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,880 I definitely put that on the list then. 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:30,880 All right. 59 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:31,880 Cool. 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,000 Good to know. 61 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,720 So that's our disclaimer then and Davivi's as well. 62 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:37,720 And scoreboard. 63 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,640 So there's one SIP, one Sandbox Improvement Proposal up for voting right now. 64 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,840 The Crafting the NFT Drops by Crypto Diplo. 65 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,400 We just interviewed him a few days ago. 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:53,240 So check that out if you want to learn more about his SIP and where you stand yourself 67 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,240 on the details. 68 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,480 And then there's two SIPs that are going up for vote next week. 69 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,020 One of them is mine for the Windows resizing resolution options for the end game portion 70 00:04:01,020 --> 00:04:02,020 of Sandbox. 71 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:05,960 The other one is Metaverse and Disability by Meta Futura. 72 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,600 And I'm trying to schedule an interview with them next week. 73 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:11,940 Sandbox style checkbook. 74 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:17,520 So of the 15.5 million sand that we have budgeted, we have spent 2.3 million. 75 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:24,440 So 15% of the budget has been spoken for or of the 12 SIPs that have been voted on thus 76 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,440 far. 77 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:33,480 And SandboxDialBase.ai we're still clocking in at 211,000 token holders, 1,800 wallet 78 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,040 voters. 79 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,360 And as of yesterday, delegations are now online. 80 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,540 So there is an application forum post and the SandboxDial. 81 00:04:43,540 --> 00:04:49,480 So if you would like to be a delegate, a delegate being pretty much a center point of many different 82 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,760 wallets that have trusted them, the delegate to vote. 83 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:00,280 And when the delegate votes, it automatically has all the other delegates voted for in the 84 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:03,080 same for the same vote. 85 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,000 And that's about all I know about delegations. 86 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,520 So if you are interested in that sort of thing, there is a post that you should read on the 87 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,520 forum. 88 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,620 And that will bring us to the introductions. 89 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:16,620 So my name is Lanzer. 90 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:21,560 I am the Sandow podcast host and also president of MetaWorlds. 91 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:29,400 MetaWorlds we've published some experiences on Sandbox as well as we write proposals for 92 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,400 the SandboxDial. 93 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,920 Written five so far and I'm in this because I love it. 94 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,400 It's the perfect intersection of business, community and gaming. 95 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,720 And I'm all about all those things. 96 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,960 And the DAO is the perfect intersection where that occurs. 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:52,280 Divivi, if you wouldn't mind, where you come from and a few details about your story. 98 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:53,280 Sure. 99 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:54,280 Hey, everybody. 100 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:56,360 My name is David or you can call me Divivi. 101 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,840 I'm oh, where to start? 102 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:03,080 Well, I'm from New York, the suburbs, not to get anybody confused. 103 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:09,480 And I studied Chinese when I was an undergrad, mostly the culture, Daoism. 104 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,680 I like the philosophy Daoism and the language. 105 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,560 I went abroad for a little while. 106 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:15,560 I came back. 107 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:16,560 I went to law school. 108 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:17,560 I'm a lawyer. 109 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,240 I'm licensed in New York. 110 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,920 I specialize in contract law and in Asian Pacific focused on China law, practiced a 111 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,720 little bit in New York, worked for legal aid for a while outside New York and then in New 112 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,240 York did some corporate stuff. 113 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,920 Then I moved to China where I lived for 15 years. 114 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:41,560 And in China, for the entirety of that time, I was a professor of law. 115 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,200 First eight years at a British university, second seven years at a Chinese university 116 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,400 teaching business law. 117 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,000 I also taught organizational behavior. 118 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,400 And then in the last five or six years, I taught management and HR. 119 00:06:54,400 --> 00:07:01,920 And during the evenings, my passion, in addition to teaching was I ran improvisational theater 120 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,760 groups in Chinese. 121 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,600 So I started the first Chinese improv group in China. 122 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,240 I ended up being the, I mean, I did this for a decade. 123 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,600 I was the creative director of the largest English language group in the whole country 124 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,060 and the largest Chinese language group in the whole country. 125 00:07:17,060 --> 00:07:21,560 Won a big reality TV show, worked with tons of movies, TV. 126 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,880 I mean, at first on camera. 127 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,920 And then after that, working at TV stations in their creative writing departments as the 128 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,480 only foreigner. 129 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,560 I taught required classes in Chinese at the Shanghai theater academy, which was the number 130 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,600 two school in the country, kind of the star maker school. 131 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,780 And so my, now the reason I bring that up and the reason that's kind of relevant to 132 00:07:41,780 --> 00:07:49,680 my story is my focus in all of that was how do you take a group of people who don't know 133 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,800 each other and create a community of trust fast? 134 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,480 Like how does trust get built through honesty and integrity and you know, their exercises 135 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,960 you can do and you know, it's that ties back into the Dow space because as I was studying 136 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:10,240 that I ended up getting stuck in America, which is where I am now in January, 2020. 137 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,040 I came home for two weeks to visit my family. 138 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,260 COVID hit. 139 00:08:14,260 --> 00:08:16,000 I couldn't get back to China. 140 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:23,740 So I accepted a fellowship to get a master's in Chinese focused on improvisational theater. 141 00:08:23,740 --> 00:08:30,000 And while I was studying that I was already into the blockchain space in around 2017. 142 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,960 I got in because I was very interested in the disruptive power of Bitcoin for remittances 143 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,040 as someone who lived abroad. 144 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,480 And then that got me into Raven coin, particularly in the idea of fractionalizing real life assets 145 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,880 because I knew so many artists in China doing theater. 146 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,400 I also do a lot of music and poetry and stuff like that. 147 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,920 I knew all these Chinese artists who were very poor, but extremely knowledgeable about 148 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,360 things like Jade or calligraphy, things that are very high worth. 149 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,280 And so they would sometimes point things out to me and say, Hey, you see that in this flea 150 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,360 market or store that's worth a lot of money, but they didn't have the money to buy anything. 151 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,760 And I learned about Raven coin and was like, this is the future of asset ownership is to 152 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,600 fractionalize it. 153 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:20,400 So anyway, I was already into that space, the blockchain space. And while I was studying 154 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,360 Taoism and theater here in America, getting a master's, I became very interested in the 155 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:26,900 metaverse. 156 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:29,160 And by metaverse, you know, we can get into it. 157 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:30,760 Like what do we mean by metaverse? 158 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:36,940 But just this idea of a shared common space that is sort of created by humans and we put 159 00:09:36,940 --> 00:09:38,520 bodies in that space. 160 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:46,280 And how could that space be used to create areas of trust, social infrastructure, interconnectedness, 161 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,600 agency, all of the things that I feel people more and more lack. 162 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,180 So I met a professor who was very interested in that also. 163 00:09:56,180 --> 00:09:59,920 And then he offered to be my advisor if I went for a PhD. 164 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:00,920 So I did. 165 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:06,900 I got a second master's just recently in sort of metaverse sociology. 166 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:10,360 And now I'm third year PhD in that. 167 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,560 So three more years and I'll have my PhD in that. 168 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:15,360 And then we'll see what happens. 169 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:16,520 What country I end up in. 170 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:17,520 Wow. 171 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:26,760 So you're a PhD candidate for studying in metaverse sociology? 172 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:27,760 Correct. 173 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:28,760 Okay. 174 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:36,880 So you you're from New York suburbs, you practice law and you are a licensed lawyer and specifically 175 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,280 you said contract law that I hear. 176 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Yes. 177 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:41,280 That's funny. 178 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:50,200 I'm a contract negotiator and I've been negotiating contracts and writing contracts for the past 179 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,200 13 years. 180 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:52,200 Oh, wow. 181 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,200 Yeah. 182 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,240 Not licensed lawyer, but on the business end of all that. 183 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:02,520 Like contract clauses that the lawyers make sure are worded correctly. 184 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:03,520 Right on. 185 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:10,040 So you studied Chinese and then you lived in China for 15 years where you did you participated 186 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,440 or you led improv theater? 187 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,440 Yes. 188 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,440 You like you led a troupe of improv theater. 189 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,440 Yes. 190 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,440 So I had I guess three three groups going on. 191 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,800 There was a an English language group that I had gotten involved in and they did kind 192 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,960 of what's called short form. 193 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,680 People might be familiar with like whose line is it anyway? 194 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:30,680 That type of show. 195 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:34,440 I don't love that stuff, but you know it's it's gamey a little. 196 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:40,600 I like what's called long form, which is you get one word from the audience and there are 197 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,720 various ways to start it, but typically one word from the audience and then you create 198 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,880 about an hour long performance, a play. 199 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,360 It might have three acts, multiple characters. 200 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:57,160 It has themes and conflict and a climax and you know it's meant to be like sort of one 201 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,440 theater, like an hour long play. 202 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,760 It's just all impromptu and one of the things I loved in China, one of the reasons I love 203 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:12,240 doing in Chinese more than English is comedy in China is very different than comedy in 204 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:13,520 America. 205 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:19,600 I mean laughter is universal, but in China there's no history of something like Monty 206 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,780 Python or Saturday Night Live or any of that stuff. 207 00:12:23,780 --> 00:12:29,200 And so when I taught improvisation to Chinese people, they had no notion that it was meant 208 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,200 to be funny. 209 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,960 There was no idea that I never said you're trying to make jokes. 210 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,660 I just said we're making it up on the spot. 211 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:42,400 And so you know for people who don't know if you watch Chinese television compared to 212 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,000 American television, for example, American television often is very fantastical. 213 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,960 So look at something like a soap opera. 214 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,760 You'll have these character connections that are absolutely bizarre. 215 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,560 These twin died but was in a coma and came back and then somebody else had triplets and 216 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:02,760 just one of them was adopted at birth and then came back and they found each other and 217 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,600 fell in love and got divorced and just these really atypical stories. 218 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,040 Or we have shows that take place in space or where people have superpowers or things 219 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,040 like that. 220 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,800 China didn't have any of that. 221 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,020 The average soap opera was about like a young person who was starting out work and their 222 00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:21,240 tensions with their stepmother. 223 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:28,560 They're just very quotidian, very realistic day to day kind of experiences. 224 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,200 And so when I started teaching improv, I would say, you know, okay, you two people here, 225 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:33,840 I'll give you a situation. 226 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,400 Your two best friends, you're waiting online to see a movie go and they would just have 227 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,520 a conversation about the like there would be nothing weird about it at all. 228 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,160 And I was like, I love this. 229 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,160 This is fantastic. 230 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,560 This is way more interesting. 231 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:53,480 So my goal with that always and this is where it gets a little my story gets a little esoteric 232 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,600 because I always studied Daoism and loved Daoist philosophy. 233 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:03,860 And that's kind of what got me to study Chinese in the first place was in improvisation. 234 00:14:03,860 --> 00:14:07,840 I would always tell the actors, you know, if there's two people in a scene, there's 235 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,000 really three. 236 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,220 It's you, your partner and the Dao and the Dao is this energy. 237 00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:15,560 It's this force and it wants one thing. 238 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,360 Just wants us to play with it. 239 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,460 The spirit of life, the energy of life. 240 00:14:19,460 --> 00:14:20,460 It is playful. 241 00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:23,240 Life is playful and it wants us to play with it. 242 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,880 And if we do, it will give us in return beauty. 243 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,460 That's what it provides. 244 00:14:30,460 --> 00:14:33,460 Beauty takes on many shapes and forms. 245 00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:39,080 And so when we create something beautiful, we know it because it's beautiful. 246 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:46,940 And the other thing I would tell them is when people buy a ticket to watch our show, what 247 00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:53,540 they're paying for is the opportunity to watch a group of people trust each other. 248 00:14:53,540 --> 00:14:55,640 That's it. 249 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,320 Trust is beautiful. 250 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:59,520 Hard to develop. 251 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,480 It's fragile and yet it can transcend lifetimes. 252 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,040 It is incredibly important. 253 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,160 It is something that stays with people forever. 254 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,640 The bonds that we form with other humans. 255 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,320 And I believe they don't, you know, most people who have that level of trust, it's because 256 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,260 they knew somebody for decades. 257 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:23,760 And you see people at their best and their worst moments and you get to be with them 258 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,480 and empathize and be compassionate and share a lifetime with people to really grow to trust 259 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:29,480 them. 260 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,760 Well, I believe in improv. 261 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,680 We can kind of truncate that experience and develop trust fast. 262 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:36,800 And trust is beautiful. 263 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,720 You don't need to know somebody for 10 years to trust them. 264 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,320 You just need to learn to trust them. 265 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,720 And so I developed a lot of exercises. 266 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,120 I also used some traditional exercises as a sort of academic. 267 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:54,560 I used a lot of social psychology and things like that to make sure I could, sorry, I have 268 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,200 to plug in my computer, to make sure I could develop trust. 269 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,120 And what I would tell the actors is, you know, it just doesn't matter if people think this 270 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,280 is funny or even if they think it's interesting. 271 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,440 What matters is do we trust each other? 272 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,040 That's the only thing that's ever mattered. 273 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,880 And it continues to be the only thing that matters. 274 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:22,080 And that really informs my work in the blockchain space. 275 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,480 You know, because I truly believe, and I wouldn't say it's the only thing that matters. 276 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,440 Ask a person who's homeless of trust is the only thing that matters. 277 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:36,080 You know, but in terms of something like Maslow's hierarchy, you know, if you're familiar with 278 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,840 it, it's these levels of things all humans need despite whatever culture they're from. 279 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,840 Obviously, we need physiological things. 280 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,960 We need water and air and food and shelter. 281 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,720 We need these things to survive. 282 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:47,880 And beyond that, we need safety. 283 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,720 If you're living in a war-torn country and you're walking dangerous streets in the inner 284 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,760 city, wherever you are, if you're in a dangerous situation, if you have enough money to live 285 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:01,000 to pay this month's rent, but not next month's rent, like we need stability and safety. 286 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:07,640 Beyond that, we need social life, which doesn't even necessarily mean friends. 287 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,720 Maslow called it belongingness. 288 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,440 We need to belong to something. 289 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:17,460 You know, you look at a Dow like City Dow, people would buy an NFT and through the act 290 00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:21,040 of purchasing the NFT, you're a citizen. 291 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,800 I actually own a space in sandbox. 292 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,420 I bought it a long, long time ago. 293 00:17:27,420 --> 00:17:31,360 If we're talking about the sandbox metaverse, which I believe we're talking about, we are. 294 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,360 So you're Samus Fulton, all right. 295 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,080 I own an extra large piece of land. 296 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,080 I bought it. 297 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:43,480 You know, I bought a piece of Decentraland sandbox, Crypto Voxels, which I believe now 298 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:49,320 is just called Voxels because I believe in community. 299 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,280 I believe in the difference between a space and a place. 300 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,320 A space is just an area. 301 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,600 You know, it could be an area that we humans have created with ones and zeros and it's 302 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,140 digital space. 303 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:05,680 It could be physical space. 304 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,600 It could be, I think, environmental space. 305 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,540 But something that's a place has some meaning to it. 306 00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:17,280 And with theater, I always would talk to the actors and say, you know, we start out on 307 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,280 this stage. 308 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,540 This stage is just an empty piece of, it's just a space. 309 00:18:23,540 --> 00:18:26,800 It has no place to it yet. 310 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:34,520 What we want to develop is trust, integrity, honor, love, compassion, these core principles. 311 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,380 And then what we create together is a place. 312 00:18:39,380 --> 00:18:40,760 It might be a place of drama. 313 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:47,280 It might be a place of tragedy, but it's a place where things happen and emotions affect. 314 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,800 You know, I'm really interested in the idea of affect and what that means because affect 315 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,400 to some people means emotion. 316 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:01,640 And to other people, it means an effective experience is something that is, I'm forgetting 317 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,960 the word right now. 318 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,400 It's like foam. 319 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:14,840 It is something where you, to use a philosophy word, it's rhizomatic. 320 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:15,840 You familiar with that? 321 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:16,840 Do you know what I mean? 322 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,780 Like a tree is, a tree is central. 323 00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:21,520 It has roots on the bottom. 324 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,240 Typically it grows upwards and then there are branches. 325 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:32,680 A rhizome is a kind of plant like a weed or ivy, where when you look at ivy that's covering 326 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,440 a house, there's no starting point. 327 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,320 There's no bottom and top. 328 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,960 There's just lots of different little nodes all connected together in strange patterns, 329 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,240 maybe fractal patterns. 330 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,320 And that's how I see connections, right? 331 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:54,520 I don't think a dow can be built like a tree where you get some money, you start with the 332 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,100 roots, you build the foundation. 333 00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:58,560 And then from that you get the branches. 334 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,000 I think that's how centralized governments are built. 335 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,400 But I don't really think that's how communities function. 336 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:12,560 And so a lot of my feelings about what blockchains could be, what the metaverse could be, what 337 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:21,160 dows could be, are if we can take a space, like City Dow, I believe became a place, a 338 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:27,860 place where people would go to speak to each other about their troubles, especially their 339 00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:32,640 troubles affording to buy a house, because that's what City Dow was focused on. 340 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,400 How do we fractionalize real estate? 341 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,680 Now as a lawyer, I was working with other lawyers. 342 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,240 There was one guy on our team who was absolutely brilliant. 343 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:48,320 Because I'm not, you know, I am a law teacher and I love it, but I am not a brilliant attorney. 344 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:49,520 And this guy was. 345 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,400 And he had figured out a way that we could use leases and licenses because we can't fractionalize 346 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,400 real estate. 347 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,400 It's against the law. 348 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,800 It'd be a security to give everybody one acre or half an acre. 349 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:09,880 But what we could do is City Dow owns 10 acres and we give everybody a license or lease to 350 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,480 make certain use of an acre or half an acre. 351 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,900 That's fine because you don't own it. 352 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:18,500 We can even separate the bundle of rights that is property. 353 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:20,620 So anyway, we got into that in City Dow. 354 00:21:20,620 --> 00:21:22,040 We did a lot of fascinating stuff. 355 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:27,440 We went to East Denver, did a fantastic shared experience with Pizza Dow. 356 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:28,960 I love Pizza Dow. 357 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:29,960 And you familiar? 358 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:30,960 Pizza Dow is amazing. 359 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,840 I just heard them yesterday. 360 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:33,840 I think it was. 361 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:34,840 You should get snacks. 362 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:35,840 Why not on this podcast? 363 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,840 Yeah, on Mondays. 364 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,800 Yeah, get snacks. 365 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,680 Pizza Dow is unbelievable because they do what they say, which is pizza. 366 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,300 Everybody gets pizza. 367 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,580 They've spent like a million dollars on pizza. 368 00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:53,840 And here's, this is important, only supporting local. 369 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,360 No Domino's or Papa John's local pizzerias. 370 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:04,200 And the reasoning is, yeah, the reasoning is just like I'm talking about, pizzerias 371 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,400 are third spaces. 372 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,560 They're not work and they're not home. 373 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,380 And as a society, especially in America, we're losing our third spaces, our bowling alleys, 374 00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:18,840 our barber shops, our local bars, our local mom and pop bookstores, our coffee shops, 375 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:26,120 the places that are not corporate culture, but are actually local centers of political 376 00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:30,340 activism and discussion and generative connections. 377 00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:31,340 We're losing that. 378 00:22:31,340 --> 00:22:34,940 And I think the metaverse has the opportunity to help rebuild some of that. 379 00:22:34,940 --> 00:22:40,440 I'm a very strong believer in IRL connections, but we live in reality. 380 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,600 The metaverse is unbelievable. 381 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,400 It's global. 382 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:55,480 And while we have to be careful, I believe not to recreate some of the discrimination 383 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,760 of the oppressive systems in the past, you know, if you get in the metaverse, you can 384 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,760 be an avatar, which means no one knows if you're black or white or tall or short or 385 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:12,160 gay or straight, old, young, American, you know, Iranian, and nobody knows anything about 386 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,160 you. 387 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,160 You can just be a dragon or a robot or a Hello Kitty doll or whatever. 388 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,320 But how we treat each other still matters. 389 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:22,400 We make judgments. 390 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,400 We have biases. 391 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,760 A lot of it's subconscious or unconscious. 392 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,000 A lot of it's conscious. 393 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:34,160 And we need to be careful not to recreate systems of oppression in new spaces. 394 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,920 The way, you know, some of the centralized spaces like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, 395 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,300 all of those have sometimes recreated these systems of oppression. 396 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:46,080 And so I think that's a very important part of the metaverse too, in terms of that second 397 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,080 level of Maslow. 398 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,800 You don't get to the third level if you don't have safety. 399 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,400 You don't get to belongingness. 400 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:52,880 Not really. 401 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,720 We need to feel safe around each other. 402 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,160 And then we can learn to belong. 403 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,640 And then after that, we can get some self-esteem, which is, I think, really, I mean, I'm not 404 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,920 talking about the final level actualization. 405 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,640 I'm just talking about self-esteem because, you know, there's two kinds of esteem. 406 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,440 There's internal and external. 407 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,760 It's pretty easy to buy self-esteem, get a trophy wife or husband, get some Rolexes, 408 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,000 get a Lambo. 409 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,560 People will look up to you. 410 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,840 But the internal self-esteem, that's the hard one. 411 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,580 And I think the Dows have an opportunity to really help build that. 412 00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:32,320 I think that's what we need to focus on. 413 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,320 Sorry. 414 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,120 So you've been you've been SanFam for how long? 415 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,120 When did you first own your first land? 416 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,320 God, three years ago. 417 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,320 OK. 418 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,320 SanFam since 2021. 419 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,160 All right. 420 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:55,520 And before we get off too much from your background, there is something that I dug out that I wanted 421 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,800 to test your memory on. 422 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,960 And so are you are you seeing my able to see my screen? 423 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:02,960 Slide 10. 424 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,400 You're looking at the slides. 425 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,360 Let's see that slide 10. 426 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,360 Yes. 427 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:16,800 So I have I have I found a picture and it's blurred out. 428 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,600 So there's progressive levels of blurring that I'm going to remove. 429 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,920 I want you to tell me what this picture is from. 430 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,240 And we'll see if we'll see how fast you get it. 431 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,240 All right. 432 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,240 So here's here it is. 433 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,040 Totally, totally blurred out. 434 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,040 Is one layer removed? 435 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,040 Not yet. 436 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,040 I know. 437 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,040 Here's the next one. 438 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,040 Oh, I'm. 439 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,040 No. 440 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,040 OK, I need one more level. 441 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:52,760 I mean, I think that's an improv show, but I'm not sure. 442 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:53,760 And there I think is the last. 443 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,720 Oh, no, that was last one. 444 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,120 That I mean, it looks to me like it's a performance. 445 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:06,160 My group went to a festival in the Philippines, I think the Manila Improv. 446 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,760 You already said it in the course of our discussion. 447 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,760 I didn't expect you to say it. 448 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,480 Oh, well, I don't know if it's not maybe East Denver. 449 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,480 This is East Denver. 450 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,240 OK, 20, 22. 451 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,480 I blurred it out so that the faces weren't quite so I don't want to. 452 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,480 I remember. 453 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,480 Yes. 454 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,080 There was a panel, a panel discussant there. 455 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,120 I didn't know those people that well then. 456 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:33,720 But yeah, no, I remember that. 457 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:34,720 Yeah. 458 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,720 Anyways, I thought it was kind of fascinating as I was digging into some research and I 459 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:45,520 saw this video, this picture from Twitter to two years ago, three years ago. 460 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,760 And yeah, I just thought it would be an opportunity. 461 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,120 That was great. 462 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,760 We did a we did a harbinger tax experiment. 463 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,480 We was a guy named Membranes. 464 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,800 So harbinger taxes, I'll give you the real short, dirty rundown. 465 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,160 It was a guy named Arnold Harbinger and he was an economist. 466 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:08,000 And what he was frustrated with is if you look around a big city, you see lots of empty 467 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,040 lots where we need housing. 468 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:17,560 We need a public park, a library, a community garden, something. 469 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,080 But it's just an empty lot. 470 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,080 Why? 471 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,800 Because whoever owns it, whatever company or rich people own it, I use I know I'll use 472 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,760 the word rich people broadly, but whoever owns it, they're holding out for 10 X their 473 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,140 profits, right? 474 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:32,320 They're not going to sell it for two X or three X. 475 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,840 So it just sits there vacant, vacant lots all over our cities. 476 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:37,840 They're an eyesore. 477 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,600 They actually do lead to increased crime and broken window syndrome and things like that. 478 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,680 But much more importantly, they're just underutilized. 479 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,480 And so because the people live there. 480 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:55,320 And so Harbinger had this idea, what if we're not trying to uproot capitalism, but what 481 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,440 if some things are always for sale? 482 00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,440 Always. 483 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,680 Now that changes the whole nature of ownership. 484 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:08,120 Imagine that you buy a piece of land and that land is always for sale. 485 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,320 Now you declare the value. 486 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,540 You lands are buy a piece of land. 487 00:28:13,540 --> 00:28:14,880 It's an empty lot. 488 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,720 You declare the value and you're going to pay taxes on that. 489 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:26,760 So if the land is actually worth $1 million, if you declare the value to be $500,000, well, 490 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,400 then you're going to pay a lot less taxes, but it's always for sale. 491 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:31,760 I'm going to bid more than that. 492 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:32,840 You declared it 500. 493 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,020 I'll buy it for 550 and you can't stop me. 494 00:28:36,020 --> 00:28:39,600 So if you want to keep it, why don't you declare the value 3 million? 495 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,640 Well, now nobody's going to buy it because that's not a good deal for anybody else. 496 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,160 You think it's going to go up in value a lot over the years. 497 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,920 So you're willing to pay, but you're going to have to pay the taxes on that 3 million. 498 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,400 And it's going to be a lot like 50% tax. 499 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,200 Where does the money go to a Dow? 500 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,140 Now when Harberger created this idea, Dow's didn't exist, of course. 501 00:29:00,140 --> 00:29:04,240 So he had this idea that you would have a local community of people who would get this 502 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,000 tax money, not the centralized government, and they would use it for their neighborhood 503 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,580 to build whatever it is they want in their neighborhood. 504 00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:15,680 So if you want to keep your vacant lot holding out for a 10 X, fine, go ahead, but you're 505 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:21,760 going to pay that money to the community so that they can use it to improve their community. 506 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,880 And so the idea would be at ETHember. 507 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:25,880 Yes. 508 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:31,920 So we did it as a blockchain based proof of concept with this guy named Membranes, who 509 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,520 was a big part of CitiDow. 510 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,160 Now Membranes is in ApecoinDow doing something. 511 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,160 I know Membranes. 512 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,280 I highly recommend working with him and talking with him. 513 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,780 So Membranes is a close friend and we had worked together. 514 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:46,200 You rented a digital billboard truck. 515 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,200 So it drives around. 516 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,360 It has a digital billboard on the side. 517 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:55,300 And what we said is rather than having people rent that, it's always available on an app 518 00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:57,580 on your phone based in the blockchain. 519 00:29:57,580 --> 00:30:00,360 So Web3 app, you connect your Ethereum wallet. 520 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,640 We decided to use Polygon, I believe, to keep the gas transaction fees very low. 521 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,560 And what ended up happening is exactly what we hoped. 522 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:15,960 You had one Dow, I forget which Dow, had bid, let's say, $5 to put up their ad. 523 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,400 Somebody else thought, well, hey, this is great advertising at ETH Denver. 524 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,960 It's worth more than $5. 525 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,800 So they bid $10. 526 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,680 They put up their ad. 527 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,600 Somebody else bid $11. 528 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:27,600 They put up their ad. 529 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,880 So it becomes a constant auction. 530 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,760 But here's the thing. 531 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:37,280 If I bid $11 and you want the space, you bid $15, okay, you get it. 532 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,520 Now you get to declare the new value. 533 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,280 So you can declare it at $1 again. 534 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,680 You know, it doesn't have to keep going up. 535 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,240 It's what you think it's worth. 536 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,560 Okay. 537 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,520 Once you have access to the asset, which in this case is a billboard and Harbinger's idea 538 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,520 was land, you now decide and you had to pay taxes on it. 539 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,020 The taxes came out of your wallet. 540 00:30:59,020 --> 00:31:00,020 They were per minute. 541 00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:05,420 You could see it on our, on the Web3 counter, MeanBrainz and his partner, BossDragon, who's 542 00:31:05,420 --> 00:31:12,720 a genius coder, are famous now for they've made the trend, the treasury dashboard for 543 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,880 Apecoin and for a bunch of other DAOs. 544 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:21,160 So they're very good at making treasury dashboards with real time data coming from forget if 545 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,640 it's a deep DAO or snapshot or all these different places that gets scraped and uploaded. 546 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,960 So we had this board, this digital billboard that was constantly for auction for three 547 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,040 days was amazing. 548 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,600 Hundreds and hundreds of real transactions on the blockchain. 549 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,880 Every one of them recorded great proof of concept for the idea that a community, because 550 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,800 you can't do this with a whole country, but a small community. 551 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,200 And you want to know one of the best places to try it. 552 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,560 We talked with people who are Native Americans who have sovereign land. 553 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,320 They can do whatever they want with land ownership, their land. 554 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,260 It doesn't belong to America. 555 00:31:56,260 --> 00:32:01,880 So you, there are groups where you can really create a proof of concept that you can have 556 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:02,880 land. 557 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,200 You can do it in Wyoming and it's a challenge, but you know, you can have a piece of land 558 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,980 where it's constantly for sale. 559 00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:15,200 Some of the challenges with that are the incentive to build on the land. 560 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,200 You know, if you're going to build something on the land, obviously you're going to value 561 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,100 the land higher once it's built. 562 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:29,440 And so you have to think about it's a balance of taxes versus value, but it's a very interesting 563 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,200 potential for web three in the future. 564 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,400 And this is an old idea from the sixties, but we wanted to, one of our, the guys on 565 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,620 our team, a guy named Scott is a PhD economist. 566 00:32:39,620 --> 00:32:42,160 And so we're working with him on this. 567 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,160 Okay. 568 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,640 A lot of different places we could go. 569 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,640 So let's go to the next metaverse. 570 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,940 You mentioned the beginning, you get into what the definition was. 571 00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:01,560 When I listened to your Dow, the metaverse podcasts with, I can't remember the gentleman's 572 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,760 name right now. 573 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,040 It was web three with me. 574 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,040 Right. 575 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:14,800 So when you did that, about 20 minutes, 23 minutes in you, you define the metaverse as 576 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,200 being a collection of technologies. 577 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,200 Sure. 578 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,760 Do you still hold that to be your definition of metaverse? 579 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,400 You would be far greater detail, but you started off with the metaverse as a collection of 580 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,400 technologies. 581 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,920 And sure, so short answer, yes. 582 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,400 Kind of longer answer. 583 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:39,240 I think when we talk about the metaverse, there are two pathways to discuss it. 584 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,540 One is more practical and one is more philosophical. 585 00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:49,120 So in terms of a practical method, if we are not talking philosophy, what is the metaverse? 586 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,000 It is a collection of technologies. 587 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,180 One of the technologies is data storage. 588 00:33:55,180 --> 00:33:58,960 You simply can't create this much data. 589 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,240 Look at something like Decentraland or Sandbox. 590 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:07,000 All of the graphics, the interfaces, all of that takes a lot of data storage, hopefully 591 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,740 decentralized data storage so that it's not all stored on an Amazon web server. 592 00:34:11,740 --> 00:34:17,580 And we all call it web three when it's on AWS. 593 00:34:17,580 --> 00:34:21,040 It also requires some sort of virtual interface. 594 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:27,080 Now, typically we think of that as an Oculus or Apple glasses or whatever the meta ray 595 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,920 bands, whatever they're coming out with, something visual where you can see it. 596 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:38,640 We're not at the point yet where we have something proprioceptive, haptics, gloves, something 597 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,640 you could put on your shoulders. 598 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,400 There's a great example of this. 599 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:52,680 People think about something very both futuristic and dystopian like Ready Player One, where 600 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,400 that's a world we don't quite live in yet or something from William Gibson, some sort 601 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:03,840 of cyber world where people are, you know, or I think it's an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie 602 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,680 or something where people are like laying on a bed and nobody functions in real life. 603 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,040 And we're all just in this dream world. 604 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,560 That's not really the metaverse I see. 605 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,680 But the metaverse I see is proprioceptive. 606 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:20,760 What I mean by that is, right now, we experience our body in space. 607 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:27,120 I can touch my nose without any real difficulty because my fingers, I have a sense of my space. 608 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,920 I know the distance from here to my nose. 609 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:29,920 I just know. 610 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:36,320 I don't know how I know, but my brain understands where things are spatially. 611 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,600 And I have a sense of existing in this three dimensional space. 612 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,480 Now if this was the metaverse, if this was just a really highly rendered video that you 613 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,200 were looking at, and this was not just a background, but a 3D interactive background, and I was 614 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,760 a photorealistic avatar, how would I know how far I need to walk before I hit that brick 615 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,200 wall or how close this microphone really is to me? 616 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,440 Maybe it's just an, you know, like how do I know where things are in space? 617 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,480 That's a feeling of your body and other objects and distances. 618 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,280 And that's a very hard thing to replicate in the metaverse. 619 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,520 But what we've discovered is, I shouldn't say we, what scholars and scientists have 620 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,560 discovered is you don't need that. 621 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,200 Just like in a game, you just render what's in front of you. 622 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,240 You don't need to render the whole world. 623 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:26,560 You just render what you're looking at. 624 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,600 So you don't need nearly the amount of space or memory that we would imagine. 625 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,320 And to visualize yourself in space, you know, there's a funny old experiment people used 626 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,240 to do where you have a person sitting on a table and they put one hand on the table and 627 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:43,680 over here is a rubber arm. 628 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,240 They put their hand behind their back. 629 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:47,160 So one arm is real, one arm is rubber. 630 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,200 You ever seen this? 631 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,800 And they'll take a feather and stroke both arms. 632 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,920 Obviously, one arm, you feel the feather, the other arm, you don't because it's a fake 633 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:55,920 arm. 634 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:02,600 Then they take a hammer and hit the rubber arm and people react with pain because your 635 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:09,680 brain through mirror neurons, if it's stroking both arms with a feather and you feel it on 636 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,480 one, your brain just assumes you feel it on both. 637 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,360 It's why people who lose a limb have phantom limb syndrome because we have mirror neurons 638 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:19,600 that reflect these ideas. 639 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,760 So the point is they did experiments in the metaverse where they would have somebody put 640 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,960 on glasses, an Oculus. 641 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,560 You could see a photorealistic version of yourself in the metaverse. 642 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,280 And then in the metaverse, you see someone tickling your back with a feather. 643 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,560 And in real life, someone tickles your back with a feather and you start to identify with 644 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,400 the avatar. 645 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,400 You don't just see it. 646 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,760 You start to feel it. 647 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,400 You could then have wind blow your avatar's hair and you can start to feel it because 648 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,820 our brains are incredible, but they're very easy to fool. 649 00:37:54,820 --> 00:37:59,360 It's why if you put on an Oculus right now and watch a roller coaster, you'll get a lot 650 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:00,960 of people get sick. 651 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,920 Your brain doesn't know it's not real. 652 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,320 So to really get pathway is the technology and all the things that come with it. 653 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,880 Sorry, I said that was the first pathway. 654 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,880 You said there are two pathways. 655 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,640 We're all practical because this is the technologies. 656 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,740 There's the data storage technologies. 657 00:38:17,740 --> 00:38:19,440 There's the visual technology. 658 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,360 There's the haptic technology. 659 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:27,000 There is the technology of the Internet of Things, making sure that every single thing 660 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,360 can have its own address. 661 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,280 And I'm not a coder, so there's so much technology that I can't speak to very well. 662 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,940 But there's just this giant bundle of, I mean, look at the graphics technology that's needed 663 00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:43,440 to make things photorealistic. 664 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,280 Sandbox is the best of them, in my opinion. 665 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:52,100 Decentraland and Voxels are both very kind of low resolution and sandbox is amazing. 666 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:54,920 But that takes a lot of computing power. 667 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:55,920 There's a lot of stuff. 668 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,400 It's not going to run on a laptop that isn't very strong. 669 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,400 So all of these are a bundle of technologies and the metaverse is simply that. 670 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,840 Now, what we do with it is different. 671 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:11,160 If you think about speaking of laptops, when the laptop first came out, people looked at 672 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,520 it as a joke because all the software that had been written up to that time was written 673 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,160 for these giant mega massive computers. 674 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,720 There was no use for a laptop. 675 00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:27,680 But the laptop was a disruptive device because people started creating technology to use 676 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,700 on a pre-existing device. 677 00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:31,400 It's the same idea as far as I'm concerned. 678 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,640 We create the metaverse, and then we figure out what to do with it. 679 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,200 That's all the practical direction. 680 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:42,520 I see, by the way, that we're coming up on an hour and because I just love to talk, I 681 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,720 don't know if we're getting anywhere in this conversation, but... 682 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:46,720 We're starting to. 683 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:48,720 What's the second pathway? 684 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,840 Philosophical. 685 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,200 So here, let's get into Taoism for a moment. 686 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,640 Taoism says being comes from non-being. 687 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,360 And non-being and being are both part of the Tao. 688 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,400 The Tao says there's a difference between li and chi. 689 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,700 Chi is the underlying essence. 690 00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:12,920 The Japanese would call ki or chi is this life force, you know, is our chi. 691 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:18,920 It's what makes us alive, what makes this bunch of atoms and molecules and cells and 692 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,760 all of these inner parts alive. 693 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,800 What I think in America, some people might call a soul. 694 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,080 Chi is a much more expansive concept than that, because chi is like, if you think of 695 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:36,740 Tai Chi, you know, Tai Chi is that slow movement, the exercise, that's an energy generation. 696 00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:41,540 You know, that's chi, the underlying substance of the universe. 697 00:40:41,540 --> 00:40:47,160 And then there's li, which is form, like the li of a table. 698 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,160 A table, you can think of this in a platonic way too with Plato. 699 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:57,780 Plato talked about the true shapes of things, like the true idea, the idea of a table. 700 00:40:57,780 --> 00:41:04,360 There is no table in reality that will ever be as ideal as the perfect table, because 701 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,480 table isn't a thing, it's an idea. 702 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,220 Man is an idea, microphone is an idea. 703 00:41:10,220 --> 00:41:11,880 These are all just ideas. 704 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,800 And then we make imperfect versions of them in our world. 705 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,480 And li is a very similar idea in Chinese, that there are these ideas we have of a table 706 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,220 or a person, and the chi is what gives them force. 707 00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:31,760 So you think of the metaverse as the way I would describe it from a philosophical direction. 708 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:38,760 I would say it's not created, it always existed, we just found it. 709 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:45,480 You think of, think about the 1500s in the New World when they were exploring, when Cortez, 710 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,120 you know, was exploring in the 1400s. 711 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,380 There were a lot of countries that had ships that could go very far. 712 00:41:52,380 --> 00:41:55,840 So why didn't they find the New World in 1300? 713 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,360 Because they lacked navigation. 714 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:05,760 They lacked a magnetic compass, they lacked certain tools, and they lacked certain technologies. 715 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,480 What they didn't, they didn't lack the ships. 716 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,080 They lacked the technology to use the ships. 717 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:20,240 What we are doing now, I believe, is discovering new land that we didn't know was there. 718 00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:23,640 It exists, it's always existed, we just had to access it. 719 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,360 It is infinite. 720 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,540 It can be inhabited. 721 00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:33,200 And think about what happened when people, especially from the global north, or the first 722 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,580 world, as they would have called it in the past, think about what happened when people 723 00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:44,160 from the global north found, discovered, colonized the New World. 724 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,360 Think about how that changed the economy of the world, the creation of America, the horrible 725 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,880 colonial and imperialist experiences that happened throughout the world, but the expansive 726 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:03,040 technology, the cultural exchange, every development of the industrial revolution, just everything 727 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,560 was a product of discovering the New World. 728 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,080 So that's what we're doing now. 729 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,960 We're discovering the next New World. 730 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,040 We don't, we're just beginning to learn how to get there. 731 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,000 We don't know how to populate it yet. 732 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,040 We don't know how to live there. 733 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,420 We don't even know what to do there. 734 00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:21,920 We don't know what it'll be like. 735 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:29,600 But there was a sociologist in the mid 1800s named Ferdinand Tonys, German guy, and he 736 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:35,300 was working at the same time as traditional sociologists, Marx, Weber, Durkheim, and he 737 00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:39,400 had this idea called Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft. 738 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,000 And what he believed is he was watching Germany and watching industrialization. 739 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,720 He was watching these cities grow. 740 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:52,680 And he felt this cold, faceless city where you get all these people coming together for 741 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,920 money and they just don't really know each other anymore. 742 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,160 And it becomes very transactional. 743 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,160 And it's very easy to have one person at the top who controls a big business and they 744 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,120 don't really know their employees anymore and it's easy to cut corners and it's easy 745 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,120 to try to give people less money. 746 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,120 I mean, do you think Jeff Bezos knows the name of his employees? 747 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:16,720 Like it becomes so easy to be faceless. 748 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:19,040 And he called that Gesellschaft. 749 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,760 And he felt that at some point in the future, the distant future, we would have to come 750 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:30,920 full circle back to the village, back to the Gemeinschaft, the small community of trust 751 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,680 where we do know each other. 752 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:38,680 We do have accountability, responsibility, where we are decentralized, where we have 753 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,920 some polycentric government. 754 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,880 Maybe we do have a government that does certain things for everybody, but we also need to 755 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:54,200 have these local governments that really have a say and we all need to be involved and civically 756 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,280 involved. 757 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,280 And that's the Gemeinschaft. 758 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,280 And that's what I believe the Dow is. 759 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:05,960 It is the technological return to the village that Tony has talked about. 760 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,920 So pathway one would be the technology. 761 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,640 Pathway two is that we didn't create it. 762 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:17,800 We found it and it's the return to the village community. 763 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,860 It's a space that we can turn. 764 00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:25,080 It's a space that always existed that we have discovered. 765 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,360 Look, plenty of people are going to think this is nonsense and, you know, and look at 766 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,240 well maybe I'm not defending this is just my opinion. 767 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,360 I think life is more beautiful this way. 768 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,880 And so it's a space. 769 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,360 Undoubtedly it's a space and I think we can make it into a place. 770 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,520 And in that place, I think what we need are decentralized communities. 771 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:58,560 Okay, and so now that we've finished, we discovered what the metaverse is. 772 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,520 I feel like everybody owns up a pretty significant debt, right? 773 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:12,560 BOTB, I mentioned earlier when we first, when I first got on to your introduction and BOTB 774 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,040 back in August, you said that whichever DAO chooses to move in the trajectory of refining 775 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,920 academic knowledge is the one who will have the seat at the table in the future. 776 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,280 And to me that is, that's a powerful statement. 777 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,520 I found myself agreeing with that. 778 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:38,680 Whoever refines that academic knowledge, who can facilitate their entry into the broader 779 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:44,720 community at large, talking the Web2 community, just the broader internet community has found 780 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:53,000 a way to plug into the flow that already exists in our world. 781 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,180 Whereas right now we're insulated. 782 00:46:55,180 --> 00:47:00,400 We have our own language, we have our own way of doing business, take some effort to 783 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,400 get involved. 784 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:08,520 Once you're in then second nature, but it can take a bit of time to make that switch. 785 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,840 But whoever refines the academic knowledge will help facilitate their ability to stay 786 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:20,620 within, let's call it, you said see at the table, but I would say it makes, it keeps 787 00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:25,080 them competitive among everyone else. 788 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,840 What I'd want to define here more carefully is the idea of what do I mean by academic 789 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:30,840 knowledge? 790 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,160 Because I'm saying whoever has X wins the game. 791 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,960 Whoever has X has a seat at the table. 792 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:36,960 Okay, then what's X? 793 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,840 Because obviously I'm, in my opinion, that's very important. 794 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,500 It's what wins the game. 795 00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:44,100 So I called it academic knowledge. 796 00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:50,080 And I should preface this by saying a lot of people in Web3 do not like that term because 797 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:55,980 this is, Web3 to me, the ethos is very disruptive. 798 00:47:55,980 --> 00:48:00,680 And I believe that one of my favorite projects right now is Kleros, which seeks to disrupt 799 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,400 the civil law system. 800 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:03,660 And I've worked with them. 801 00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:04,800 I had a podcast with them. 802 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,720 I don't know if you happen to find that, but a podcast with, I believe it was Membranes 803 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:10,600 and the head of coding for Kleros. 804 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,700 They disrupt civil law, which is absolutely amazing. 805 00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:16,040 And they're doing an amazing job. 806 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:21,320 And I see an unbelievably bright future for Kleros. 807 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,080 There's a lot of things to be disrupted. 808 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,000 Pharmaceuticals, the insurance industry, there are DAOs that do insurance. 809 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,400 You know, there's a lot of disruption in the Web3 space. 810 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:37,520 So to say something like academic knowledge, that just conjures up ivory tower, images 811 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:50,080 of pedigrees, PhDs, overpaid professors, neoliberals, you know, all of this ideology of privilege. 812 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:55,960 Most people don't get to go to college, let alone to have the opportunity to get a 813 00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:01,800 master's or a PhD, it is such a privileged thing speaking in the global space. 814 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,640 You know, and right now the people who have that privilege for the most part are people 815 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:11,360 in the global north, you know, America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, England, France, Spain, 816 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,160 you know, all these kind of Germany, all these places. 817 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:20,720 But what I really mean by academic knowledge is I mean legitimacy. 818 00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:23,520 And to me, the key word is legitimacy. 819 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:29,080 You know, I mentioned that there's sort of three levels of DAOs, historically speaking. 820 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:35,640 To me, DAOs began, you know, as early as 2014, probably, but 2016, 2017, that's when you 821 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,040 began to get DAOs. 822 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:38,480 Anybody could be a DAO. 823 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,280 It just didn't mean anything. 824 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,560 But that's when you started to get in like 2019, you got some legislation in Wyoming, 825 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,040 it started to sort of mean something. 826 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,220 And, you know, then you got the second wave of DAOs where some of them went bankrupt, 827 00:49:50,220 --> 00:49:51,220 but you had some big ones. 828 00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:52,760 You have bankless DAO. 829 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,040 BDAO was pretty legit. 830 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,920 Lex DAO, the DAO of lawyers, Cabin DAO, the DAO of people meeting together and innovating. 831 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,920 You started to have some real DAOs that were so, ah, they is a huge DAO. 832 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,480 You know, some DAOs that were really significant. 833 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:06,760 Optimism now. 834 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,280 I think we're in phase two, and I think that's going to last for a while. 835 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:17,960 And we're going to figure out now which DAOs do something, which DAOs create community, 836 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,040 which DAOs are entrepreneurial, which DAOs are public. 837 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,880 I mean, look at Gitcoin, wonderful example of a DAO that does something. 838 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,800 Which DAOs to me get into phase three has to do with legitimacy. 839 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,160 You cannot fundamentally, as someone who is a professor of human resource management, 840 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:40,280 you can't have a DAO where it's not possible to reprimand anybody, where somebody can get 841 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,380 a grant of money, and then they have no accountability. 842 00:50:44,380 --> 00:50:49,160 They submit a proposal, they get $100,000 and hey, let's really hope that they spend 843 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:50,160 it well. 844 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,960 That's not, no legitimate business runs that way. 845 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,880 And if you're giving people a grant of money and there's no way to claw back the funds, 846 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,440 there's no accountability, there's no responsibility, except most DAOs would say like, well, every 847 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,920 month you got to write a report on what you did. 848 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:10,020 Well, you know, track GPT can write a great report on what I pretend I did. 849 00:51:10,020 --> 00:51:13,200 That lacks legitimacy. 850 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,640 Real businesses don't run that way. 851 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,660 I mean, as a business law professor for a lot of years. 852 00:51:17,660 --> 00:51:23,040 So there are things that the DAO speaks truly lacks from a business perspective. 853 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,000 What we need to do is study DAOs. 854 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,040 You know, a good example is I'm now very involved in APECOINDAO. 855 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:37,840 APECOINDAO like many DAOs is sort of a plutocracy, which is to say it's one coin, one vote. 856 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,160 So if you buy 6 million coins, you have 6 million votes. 857 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,520 I, David, have four coins. 858 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,240 So I have four votes. 859 00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:51,960 If you have 6 million votes and I have four votes, I'm sorry, but I'd hardly call that 860 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,440 a democratic government. 861 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,880 I mean, it's a government by the rich. 862 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:56,880 That's all it is. 863 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:57,880 And that's called a plutocracy. 864 00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:59,840 And many DAOs are plutocratic. 865 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:05,880 Well, that's when we're talking about legitimacy, that's not really going to work to have. 866 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:06,880 Then it's fine. 867 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,460 You just have a DAO of a few very, very rich people and everybody else hoping the price 868 00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:12,040 of the coin goes up. 869 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,000 That's not really what the point of a DAO is. 870 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,840 Now in DAOs, we don't even have the technology to really do proof of humanity yet. 871 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,400 We're getting close with WorldCoin and things like that, but nobody wants to get their eyeballs 872 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:23,400 scanned. 873 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:28,640 So we're still a little while off from having real proof of humanity, which means you can't 874 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:33,880 do a Sybil attack and just open 10 wallets and say you're 10 people. 875 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,640 Gitcoin passport is one sort of method of identifying yourself. 876 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:42,160 But you know, the point of this is, what's the point of this? 877 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,880 Am I even talking about here? 878 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:53,240 So the point is that to get to the third level, the legitimacy, who do you need to be taken 879 00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:55,060 seriously by? 880 00:52:55,060 --> 00:52:59,560 Who needs to take you seriously to have what I call a seat at the table? 881 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,160 And I don't mean this in a bad way. 882 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,880 The answer is not crypto degens. 883 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,040 The answer is not people who want a Lambo or want price go up. 884 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,880 It's things like the United Nations. 885 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:12,360 They take you seriously. 886 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,480 You have a seat at the table. 887 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,160 You don't need most of countries in the United Nations have a population of less than 10 888 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,160 million people. 889 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:27,880 And their treasuries, so to speak, their country treasuries are not in the many trillions of 890 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,920 dollars like DOWs can compete. 891 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,040 We are not far off from a Dow. 892 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:40,000 If you have a Dow with a with 2 million people and a treasury, Apecoin used to have $3 billion. 893 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:46,480 You have a you have a you have a Dow of a couple hundred thousand people, 500,000 people 894 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,800 and $10 billion. 895 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,840 You don't think countries are going to take you seriously. 896 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,680 That's real money and power and a lot of people. 897 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,280 And you have countries out there like Estonia. 898 00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,000 I have an E residence from Pulao. 899 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,800 And one of my best friends has an E residence from Estonia. 900 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:09,320 Barbados already opened the first diplomatic office in the metaverse. 901 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,640 There are countries out there that want to be forward thinking. 902 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:18,080 They may recognize a Dow as a semi sovereign agent. 903 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,480 You're never going to be so academic knowledge. 904 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,440 Help us do that. 905 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:31,000 The only way anybody is going to take any of this seriously is if you have a paper written 906 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:38,680 that has proper methodology, research, academic rigor, and it's published in recognized journals. 907 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:46,440 It's peer reviewed and universities and international organizations and scholars can look at this 908 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,040 and say that is verified. 909 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,380 Because right now we suffer from a crisis of what is the truth. 910 00:54:54,380 --> 00:54:56,800 We live in a post truth society. 911 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:58,440 We don't know what's true and what's not. 912 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,640 We literally just had a debate last night in America with two people where they needed 913 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:07,100 to be fact checked because they say things that are not the truth. 914 00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:08,640 We don't know what the truth is. 915 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,640 There are lies all around us. 916 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:15,080 So blog posts, I'm sorry, they don't cut it. 917 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:16,180 It just doesn't matter. 918 00:55:16,180 --> 00:55:20,160 You can have a hundred blog posts with a thousand great ideas. 919 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,240 Cambridge won't take you seriously. 920 00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:26,000 Oxford, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, MIT. 921 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,480 These are blockchain societies. 922 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,520 There's a blockchain society at every one of those schools. 923 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,960 There are people engaged in this and the ones who are getting the grants. 924 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:39,680 America gives out billions of dollars in academic and scientific grants every year. 925 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,800 Most universities give out hundreds of millions of dollars in academic grants. 926 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,920 People think that the money in web three comes from NFTs. 927 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,480 Real money comes from governments. 928 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:51,880 That's where the money is. 929 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:56,900 It's in universities and governments, but they don't give it to blog post writers. 930 00:55:56,900 --> 00:56:02,600 You know, to get a seat at the table, you really need to be able to participate in the 931 00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:08,840 web one world of knowledge creation. 932 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:14,280 And so many Daoists talk about education and education is the transfer of knowledge, the 933 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,760 transfer of skills, but it's not the creation of knowledge. 934 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:24,840 In Daoists, we're trying in metaverse, we're trying to create new ways to govern. 935 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,080 We have to prove it works. 936 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:32,080 I mean, I just said, you know, Apecoin Dao had hundreds of thousands of people in $3 937 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,080 billion. 938 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,160 That was less than six months ago. 939 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,160 Now they have $300 million. 940 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,560 Do you have any idea what would happen to a country if they went from three billion 941 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,160 to 300 million? 942 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:46,440 It would be, I mean, it's a, the whole place would fall apart. 943 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,480 Like this is not being studied. 944 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:51,600 How did that happen? 945 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,760 We need to know because we can't prevent it if we don't know. 946 00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:01,360 All of these things need to be learned and studied at the academic level where they're 947 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:08,720 published in journals and scholars from around the world trust that because while we do live 948 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:15,240 in a post truth society, scholars and academics are actually a pretty sizable group of people 949 00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,840 who kind of still have a method of truth. 950 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:23,440 You know, this look, the, the slogan of the Royal society in England, this dates back 951 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:30,720 to 1200 people don't read, or maybe 1100 was don't trust, verify. 952 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:36,880 People think that's a web three slogan that was from 1100 AD, the Royal society of England, 953 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:42,520 don't trust, verify academics have been doing this for a millennium. 954 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:48,720 They've been doing the don't trust, verify you can't, you just, we want to see it at 955 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:49,900 the table. 956 00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:53,040 We have to verify that this stuff is real. 957 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,760 Nope, that not make sense to me. 958 00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,680 I like the way you're going with, I can see some connections to the sandbox towel though. 959 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:08,760 You can hold off on that because I think your connection to the Apecoin DAO does bear fruition 960 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,640 in what you're saying. 961 00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:17,440 A study from it going, I think it was, I calculate the exact figures in one of my improvement 962 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:23,860 proposals because that spawned a sip for me to, as of right now, put together a team of 963 00:58:23,860 --> 00:58:31,560 experts to churn out realistic revenue options and revenue plans so that the sandbox style 964 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:38,120 can start generating money now, start accruing revenue streams now versus years down the 965 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:45,000 road when like Apecoin DAO where it's now, it's trying to grasp for whatever it can, 966 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:46,800 as fast as it can. 967 00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:51,720 I've been listening to BOTB for quite some time and that theme started emerging over 968 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:52,720 time. 969 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:56,160 I was like, wow, this train's coming for all of us. 970 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:57,160 Every doubt. 971 00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,440 How do you bring in more than what you're pushing out? 972 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:05,640 And if what you bring in isn't enough, if what you're spending is less than what you're 973 00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:11,520 earning, then it's only a matter of time before that number capsizes your project, your organization, 974 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,680 unless you have some sort of philanthropic factor. 975 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:19,880 I mean, this comes back in economics, this is the free rider problem. 976 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:25,120 So if you want to create something, a community, a business, an entrepreneurial enterprise, 977 00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:29,960 a startup, whatever it is you're creating, I, if you're creating the free rider, if 978 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:34,640 you're creating a transit system and you spend all this money on the trolley or the bus, 979 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:39,720 how do you stop people from just jumping on and using what you created to their own benefit? 980 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,760 It wears it down over time. 981 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:46,020 It takes up the resources, it uses the infrastructure, but they're not paying for it. 982 00:59:46,020 --> 00:59:48,180 How do you prevent the free riders? 983 00:59:48,180 --> 00:59:51,640 People in all of these Dows, you know, you buy the token or the NFT, you hope the price 984 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,920 goes up, but you're not really involved in the governance. 985 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:59,780 And here's the thing, people want to be the people I've, at least I can't speak for everybody, 986 00:59:59,780 --> 01:00:05,360 but most of the people I've met in web three, they deeply want to be involved to the extent 987 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:06,360 they can be. 988 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:07,600 They want to learn more. 989 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:13,400 So in city Dow, we had guilds where each guild brought in people and we had weekly meetings 990 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,360 and people who didn't know much about stuff. 991 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,560 We would train them up, whether it was an advertising or marketing or graphic design 992 01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:24,680 or law or whatever, we, you know, you got to train people up in a community. 993 01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:29,600 And I think a lot of Dows, you end up with a small group of people who make a lot of 994 01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:30,600 money. 995 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,800 There's something in sociology called Michelle's iron law. 996 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:40,560 The iron law, which has never been broken, says every small community that starts for 997 01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:45,720 a good social purpose ends up with a small group of people in power who want to hold 998 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:47,360 onto their power. 999 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,960 The iron now I've oligarchy. 1000 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:51,960 Yeah. 1001 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:52,960 Yeah. 1002 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,600 Michelle's iron law of oligarchy. 1003 01:00:54,600 --> 01:01:00,520 Now I don't think it really is true in every, I'm sure everybody could find edge cases where 1004 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:07,200 there was some community, let's say a religious community like the shakers or something, maybe, 1005 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:12,180 but Dows, I believe could be the community. 1006 01:01:12,180 --> 01:01:15,960 We don't get anywhere until we break Michelle's iron law. 1007 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,700 We need a community of people who are socially minded. 1008 01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:24,480 And I don't mean, you know, they're look at something like clema clema Dow that works 1009 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:28,760 for carbon credits, you know, and climate activism. 1010 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:29,760 Great. 1011 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:34,640 You can have another Dow that's pro saving the dolphins or saving the coral reef or cleaning 1012 01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,100 up the debris in space. 1013 01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:42,520 You could have Dows for every single one of these purposes and the Dows could make money. 1014 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:47,240 But if you have a small group of people who rise to the top and start making a lot of 1015 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:52,600 money, a big part of my research now is the effective incentives, financial incentives 1016 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,280 in Dows because we have all this money. 1017 01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,820 We could distribute it to people, but that's not really what happens. 1018 01:01:59,820 --> 01:02:02,960 What happens is a few people earn a lot. 1019 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,880 Everybody else earns nothing and hopes their token price goes up. 1020 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,100 That is a reiteration of Michelle's iron law. 1021 01:02:11,100 --> 01:02:14,480 When we break the iron law, then we're really getting somewhere. 1022 01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,640 Okay, I put that put that in the open topics if we have enough time to get to later because 1023 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,200 I'm I'm intrigued about that. 1024 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:26,720 Let's see when on on CDAO took me by surprise that it's all over with. 1025 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:30,840 So at this point, it'll be like a debrief, a retrospective, if you will. 1026 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:39,640 At the time, I had a DOW based AI show that it had 4800 token holders, 68 proposals and 1027 01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,560 3400 wallet voters. 1028 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,200 So that that was that was interesting. 1029 01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,400 Very fascinating to see. 1030 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:54,400 And so the DOW history is that so you said in the beginning and as as of over three months 1031 01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:59,480 ago, the DOW, CitiDOW is concluded itself. 1032 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,080 It airdropped its treasury to the community. 1033 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,080 Yeah. 1034 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,040 So let me give a if it's okay, like a quick debrief and run down. 1035 01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:07,040 Sure. 1036 01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:08,200 The next was CitiDOW. 1037 01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:09,600 So go ahead. 1038 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:15,840 CitiDOW started in around 2021 based on this idea from a guy named Scott Fitz without doxing 1039 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:17,360 his real name. 1040 01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:18,720 And he had this idea. 1041 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:23,660 He put out a tweet that said, hey, guys, I want to buy some land and create a down in 1042 01:03:23,660 --> 01:03:27,300 Wyoming to test out the new Wyoming Dow law. 1043 01:03:27,300 --> 01:03:28,480 And a bunch of people got together. 1044 01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:29,480 They put in some money. 1045 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:34,000 They created this NFT that was CitiDOW NFT citizen. 1046 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,800 They sold them first citizen founding citizen. 1047 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:40,720 They raised, I don't know, something like four hundred thousand dollars. 1048 01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:41,720 They bought the land. 1049 01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,800 It was, I believe, 40 acres of kind of scrub land. 1050 01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,360 You couldn't really build much there. 1051 01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,600 It was zoned for a one family house, but very windy. 1052 01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:49,600 There were bears. 1053 01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,840 It's not a good place to live in Wyoming. 1054 01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,120 That was pretty cheap. 1055 01:03:54,120 --> 01:04:01,800 Now, very soon after that, Vitalik Buterin wrote about CitiDOW because they not only 1056 01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:07,440 do they run in similar circles, Scott and Vitalik, but Vitalik is very interested and 1057 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,880 I shouldn't speak for him, but his blog posts speak to the idea that he's very interested 1058 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:18,040 in how DOWs can help humans to gather and how we can change things like fractionalized 1059 01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,640 ownership of assets and real estate through DOWs. 1060 01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,080 So he mentioned it. 1061 01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,600 Well, boom, all it takes is a mention from Vitalik. 1062 01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:26,920 We were up to eight eight million dollars. 1063 01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,200 Now, here's where you get problem number one. 1064 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:34,040 I joined CitiDOW shortly after that. 1065 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:39,720 Maybe this happened in 2020 and I joined in 2021 or 2019 and whatever it was. 1066 01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,120 I joined shortly after Vitalik had mentioned us. 1067 01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,800 When I joined, we already had eight million dollars. 1068 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:51,200 I didn't know any of this stuff about Vitalik or I mean, I knew who he was, but I didn't 1069 01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,880 I didn't know the history, the early history of CitiDOW then. 1070 01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,920 I just got in because I was interested in fractionalizing real estate. 1071 01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:06,120 And problem number one, this actually is very similar to kind of what happened in Apecoin. 1072 01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:10,280 The way the tax law works in America, and this is not true in lots of countries, but 1073 01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:15,920 it is in America, is with crypto, every time you transfer an asset to another asset, Bitcoin 1074 01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:23,640 to Ethereum, Ethereum to, you know, whatever, to Ethereum to Seoul, Seoul to AVAX, AVAX, 1075 01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:27,400 whatever, anytime you make any transfer, it's called a taxable event and you have to pay 1076 01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:28,540 taxes. 1077 01:05:28,540 --> 01:05:34,680 So when people bought the NFT with cash, the price of Ethereum at that time was around 1078 01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:37,760 $4,000 per token. 1079 01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:48,040 CitiDOW now owed tax at a rate of as if we got $4,000 per ETH. 1080 01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,320 That's what we owed taxes on. 1081 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:54,600 However, our treasury, because we didn't, we just started, we didn't have a financial 1082 01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:56,880 manager or anything. 1083 01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,360 The price of ETH dropped to like $1,000. 1084 01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,960 So take a look at Apecoin, you know, you had a billions of dollars when the price of Ape 1085 01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:06,720 token was $4. 1086 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:08,780 Well what happens when it drops to 60 cents? 1087 01:06:08,780 --> 01:06:16,320 If your team never diversified from Apecoin to gold, silver, Bitcoin, Ethereum, US treasury 1088 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:20,120 bonds, USDC, anything, they just had it in Ape. 1089 01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,800 Well, the price plummets, so does your treasury. 1090 01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:23,800 Well that happened to us. 1091 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:25,880 Our treasury was 100% in ETH. 1092 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:31,920 ETH plummets to $1,000 and we now owe taxes that would almost bankrupt us. 1093 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:36,400 So already we were in a tenuous situation where we had less than 3 million and we owed 1094 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:37,520 a million in tax. 1095 01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:39,460 We did pay all the taxes legally. 1096 01:06:39,460 --> 01:06:45,120 That was a big part of my focus on legitimacy was we have to pay our taxes. 1097 01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,760 You know, we cannot be incorporated in the metaverse. 1098 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,200 We're really incorporated in Wyoming. 1099 01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:55,160 So anyway, throughout the next two to three years, we had a first city council. 1100 01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:56,160 I was on that. 1101 01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:01,360 I helped write the city charter and we started these guilds and we developed a lot of people 1102 01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:02,600 and it was going great. 1103 01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:07,360 The education guild, we had a three day online conference with academics from around the 1104 01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:08,360 world. 1105 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:12,780 We were doing all kinds of things, but the money was going down. 1106 01:07:12,780 --> 01:07:17,200 You know, we were getting all these CIPs and people were requesting grants for this and 1107 01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,800 that and it's supposed to be algorithmic. 1108 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,200 So if you get enough votes, but it wasn't that hard to get enough votes if you knew 1109 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:25,200 the right people. 1110 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,240 And you know, you started to get these issues and then you started to have these de facto 1111 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,580 delegations. 1112 01:07:32,580 --> 01:07:36,800 They're not, you know, we didn't create them, but you would have the Chinese delegation, 1113 01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:41,440 the Middle Eastern delegation, the Turkish, just all the people would sort of band together 1114 01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:43,560 and block their votes. 1115 01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:49,400 And then these delegations could kind of vote against each other and it became very politicized. 1116 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,020 So at that point, we really needed to pay our taxes. 1117 01:07:53,020 --> 01:07:54,880 But again, this is a problem with DAOs. 1118 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,360 If everything is done through a democratic vote, well, if you take a vote, you have to 1119 01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,260 take a vote to pay your taxes. 1120 01:08:00,260 --> 01:08:04,720 But if people say no, which is what they did, so we couldn't pay our taxes, but we have 1121 01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:06,020 to pay our taxes. 1122 01:08:06,020 --> 01:08:08,220 Like what do you mean? 1123 01:08:08,220 --> 01:08:11,760 It's like, it's like taking a vote on whether I can go to the bathroom, but I have to go 1124 01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:12,760 to the bathroom. 1125 01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:19,940 Like, so we, I was able to help engineer an international city council with a certain 1126 01:08:19,940 --> 01:08:24,320 number of Chinese members and Turkish members and French members and you know, just something 1127 01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:25,860 to get it together. 1128 01:08:25,860 --> 01:08:26,860 So great. 1129 01:08:26,860 --> 01:08:31,120 We had an international city council and we paid our taxes, but then the international 1130 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:35,100 city council was deadlocked on everything. 1131 01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:39,040 Every time the Turkish would make a proposal, the Chinese would block it and the Chinese 1132 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,760 would make a proposal and the British would block it. 1133 01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,800 It was absurd, but you know, learning lessons. 1134 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,600 So you got all these delegations kind of not working together. 1135 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:54,260 Ultimately, it really came down to one issue, which is if we're going to build land, build 1136 01:08:54,260 --> 01:08:55,260 something on land. 1137 01:08:55,260 --> 01:08:59,960 Well, I guess two issues, one, if we're going to buy land, should we buy a pre-existing 1138 01:08:59,960 --> 01:09:07,100 structure like an Airbnb or a school or something, or should we buy empty land, which is cheaper, 1139 01:09:07,100 --> 01:09:12,200 but you need infrastructure, you need electricity and plumbing and you need to build something 1140 01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:16,640 and that takes time and permits and you know, money. 1141 01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:18,060 So what land should we buy? 1142 01:09:18,060 --> 01:09:21,160 And then the bigger issue, where should we buy it in China? 1143 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:22,240 Should we buy it in Turkey? 1144 01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:23,720 Should we buy it in the Philippines? 1145 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:24,800 Should we buy it in Vietnam? 1146 01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:25,800 Should we buy it? 1147 01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:27,520 Hey, it's a great time to buy in Cambodia. 1148 01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:32,440 Yeah, it is, but who's going to be there in Cambodia? 1149 01:09:32,440 --> 01:09:37,040 So we couldn't decide where to buy the land and Scott kept putting out proposal after 1150 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:38,040 proposal. 1151 01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:39,560 Let's just do something. 1152 01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:40,720 Let's do something grand. 1153 01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:42,160 Let's do it. 1154 01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:46,800 And every proposal just kept getting blocked and the community started to get a little 1155 01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,600 bit toxic, I feel, because nothing was happening. 1156 01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:50,760 It was stagnant. 1157 01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:57,280 And finally, I decided to leave and I gave in my notice, my resignation. 1158 01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:58,280 When was this? 1159 01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,240 Because I felt, sorry? 1160 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:02,600 When was this? 1161 01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:08,120 Probably six months ago, I'd have to look at the CIP, but I decided to resign because 1162 01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:13,720 I felt like the community wasn't being well served by all this infighting and that the 1163 01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:22,360 best thing I could do was continue being a citizen, but continue working on what I believe 1164 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,960 is legitimacy and fractionalization. 1165 01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,140 And at that point, Scott, the founder, also chose to leave. 1166 01:10:29,140 --> 01:10:34,140 And once the two of us left, pretty much, we made a proposal to just give the treasury 1167 01:10:34,140 --> 01:10:35,480 back to all the citizens. 1168 01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:37,880 It passed with a super majority. 1169 01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,800 And so we gave a couple of weeks. 1170 01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,680 Scott had taken a snapshot and let everybody see it to be transparent so you could see 1171 01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,680 how much you were getting to make sure your wallet was listed. 1172 01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,360 And then in tranches, we gave it all back to the people. 1173 01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,360 I believe the land was donated to charity. 1174 01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:56,040 And the end of CityDow. 1175 01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:57,800 Wonderful learning lesson, really. 1176 01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,440 I take so much away from it. 1177 01:10:59,440 --> 01:11:04,360 I made good friends who I still talk to all the time. 1178 01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,040 A ton of great experiences. 1179 01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,760 I wouldn't trade it for the world. 1180 01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,960 So this happened three months ago is when it all came to a close? 1181 01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:13,960 Pretty much. 1182 01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:15,840 That's when I joined ApecoinDow. 1183 01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:26,760 My friend MeanBrainz had recommended ApecoinDow is kind of like it's a whole level above. 1184 01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:31,720 I mean, ApecoinDow at that point had like a billion dollars, 300 million, whatever they 1185 01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:32,720 had. 1186 01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:34,160 It was a lot more than we had, which was 3 million. 1187 01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:37,960 It was an order of magnitude, two orders of magnitude larger. 1188 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:44,320 But what's been fascinating is to see how problems do get replicated. 1189 01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:47,440 Scale doesn't necessarily matter. 1190 01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:53,080 We need to fix these problems, but to fix them, we need to analyze them. 1191 01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:58,800 I've seen so many people at ApecoinDow, very, very smart people making very smart suggestions, 1192 01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:04,360 but they have no real rigorous data to back this up. 1193 01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:08,960 I happen to agree with some of their opinions, but it doesn't matter if I agree. 1194 01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:13,520 But what happens is when you've legitimized evidence that's been proven and a lot of people 1195 01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,560 agree, that's when it becomes much easier to pass a vote. 1196 01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:26,120 So I did some history digging myself when I put together a revenue option SIP for SandboxDow. 1197 01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:37,880 And ApecoinDow has only been in existence for two and a half years per CoinGecko. 1198 01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:50,280 Apecoin's original $25.97 billion market cap from April 2022 had been reduced 96% to $843 1199 01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:54,080 million in July of 2024. 1200 01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,280 And you're talking about market cap. 1201 01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:01,160 So that's if all of the tokens were sold, which of course they're not. 1202 01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:06,720 The amount in the actual treasury was billions at one point, then was $300 million. 1203 01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:12,280 Now the banana bill passed, which was $100 million proposal, which passed very, I mean, 1204 01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:13,800 that's a great case study. 1205 01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:15,980 It passed like that. 1206 01:13:15,980 --> 01:13:21,960 It just slid right through because all the people who have millions of votes wanted it. 1207 01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:27,640 It didn't matter how many other people, there are 224,000, I think, individual wallets. 1208 01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:33,080 You could have every single wallet, but I've vote against it. 1209 01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:35,320 It would still pass super easily. 1210 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:40,040 And the dashboard, I see $289 million, Ape. 1211 01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,120 And this was just a month or two ago. 1212 01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:49,040 Its cash flow is $10.9 million, Ape going out the door. 1213 01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:56,000 So that to me was a big eye opener for myself that if you don't have something going for 1214 01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:04,000 you, you cannot expect to keep on going out money and grants and expect to remain solvent. 1215 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:05,000 And then all the problems- 1216 01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,040 This is a big issue in the Dow space. 1217 01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:13,760 Are Dow's businesses, you know, because businesses don't operate this way. 1218 01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,320 Businesses don't just give out grants with no accountability. 1219 01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:17,960 That's just not how they work. 1220 01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:18,960 You can't- 1221 01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:19,960 Obviously you can't expect- 1222 01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,600 I think it operates closer to a nonprofit, the more I observe. 1223 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:28,440 And I've only been looking at Dow since May 28th, since Sandbox announced its Dow out 1224 01:14:28,440 --> 01:14:30,080 of nowhere. 1225 01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:31,240 There was no preamble. 1226 01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,160 There was no preface. 1227 01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:34,800 They had been doing it in secret. 1228 01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:35,880 I say in secret. 1229 01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:40,400 They had been doing it outside of the public's view for eight months. 1230 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:44,240 And then May 28th, they announced the Dow and the SIP and the foundation to the legal 1231 01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:48,720 structure and the budget and the special counsel all at once. 1232 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,440 And now I've been delving into it ever since. 1233 01:14:52,440 --> 01:14:59,520 But the more I look at it, the more I think this looks a lot like a nonprofit. 1234 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:05,880 Let me propose a vision to you that I have of the future, five to 10 years from now. 1235 01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:06,880 Imagine a company like Nike- 1236 01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:11,240 Different than the five to 10 years that I know that you talked about in Dow to Metaverse? 1237 01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:12,240 Go ahead. 1238 01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,240 Well, I don't remember- 1239 01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:15,240 I do. 1240 01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:16,240 I've got it as one of the questions. 1241 01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:18,640 But I already know the answer now that CityDow is gone. 1242 01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:19,640 I love that guy. 1243 01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:20,640 I forget his name. 1244 01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:21,640 I haven't talked to him in so long. 1245 01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:23,120 We used to talk every week. 1246 01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:27,200 God, he's so cool. 1247 01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:28,200 Forget his real name. 1248 01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:29,200 I'll have to find him. 1249 01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:30,200 You've inspired me to do that. 1250 01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:31,200 I know I wrote it down. 1251 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:32,200 Please. 1252 01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:33,200 I miss him. 1253 01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:39,360 You said in the next five to 10 years, this was two years ago, you wanted to be the dean 1254 01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:46,040 of the city and you want to be offering multiple degrees, sociology or history. 1255 01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,040 And my question was- 1256 01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:49,040 Oh, I'm right on that pathway. 1257 01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:50,040 Are you still? 1258 01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:51,040 Okay. 1259 01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:52,040 Oh my God. 1260 01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:53,040 Yeah. 1261 01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:55,880 I am now working with a group in California called RTM, the Center for Research Theory 1262 01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:57,200 and Methodology. 1263 01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:58,640 They are a group of professors. 1264 01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:00,720 They have 30 to 40 years experience. 1265 01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:04,280 They publish a very well-known academic journal. 1266 01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:06,500 So they have it down. 1267 01:16:06,500 --> 01:16:11,620 How do you go from being a professor to writing articles, to getting them reviewed, to making 1268 01:16:11,620 --> 01:16:15,960 your own journal, to publishing a journal for years and years and years? 1269 01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:21,220 And their philosophy is we need to end this pedigree stuff. 1270 01:16:21,220 --> 01:16:28,420 We need to have teams of methodology experts, PhDs who know the academic game, along with 1271 01:16:28,420 --> 01:16:31,040 people who are content experts. 1272 01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,280 So let's say you're a firefighter. 1273 01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:37,720 Why should I, the PhD student, interview 20 firefighters and then think I know something 1274 01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:38,720 about it? 1275 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:42,000 Why wouldn't I co-write the paper with you? 1276 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,180 Because nobody's done that before. 1277 01:16:44,180 --> 01:16:48,440 Every single paper has always been by the PhDs about non-PhDs. 1278 01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:51,320 How about the non-PhDs get involved in it? 1279 01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:52,840 Then you start to get the pedigree. 1280 01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,920 Well, nobody ever wanted that before because that's disruptive. 1281 01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:59,440 But that's what this group in California has been working on. 1282 01:16:59,440 --> 01:17:03,600 And couple that with the idea of starting a journal, so they already have one. 1283 01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:08,760 Recently I met the guy and I'm not going to give any names yet because it's not formalized, 1284 01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:15,120 but it's the first journal of its kind, let's say. 1285 01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:16,360 Very legitimate. 1286 01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:24,620 This person is, I was starstruck and I don't get starstruck easily in the crypto space. 1287 01:17:24,620 --> 01:17:27,400 But this person blew my mind. 1288 01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:30,720 They've run a journal for a very long time and they're very interested in working with 1289 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:31,920 this team. 1290 01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:38,200 And just this morning I had a call with somebody who does very serious work in micro-credentialing 1291 01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:39,200 and courses. 1292 01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:43,440 I mean, this stuff is, it's taken years, but it's coming together for very real. 1293 01:17:43,440 --> 01:17:46,800 I mean, I'm not going to be the Dean of City Dow University. 1294 01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,280 Not anymore. 1295 01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:52,400 So that's taken on a new form, but the vision is still the same. 1296 01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:54,400 By the way, his name was Zach. 1297 01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:57,320 Yes, thank you. 1298 01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:03,080 So, my vision is, what I was just talking about is not a vision for David. 1299 01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:05,440 It's a vision for the Dow space. 1300 01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:07,960 And it's one that's a little bit contentious. 1301 01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:16,080 So imagine the big companies, Nike, Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Merck Pharmaceutical. 1302 01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:19,520 Let's take Coca-Cola as an example, Kellogg's. 1303 01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:20,720 Let's take Coca-Cola. 1304 01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:25,400 Let's say that every company learns about Web3. 1305 01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:26,580 Web3 is just starting. 1306 01:18:26,580 --> 01:18:27,580 It's nascent. 1307 01:18:27,580 --> 01:18:29,360 Nobody knows what the blockchain really is. 1308 01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:30,760 I mean, so few people. 1309 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:33,120 Big companies don't have blockchain departments. 1310 01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:41,200 But imagine that Coca-Cola realizes we can take $5 million, $1 million, nothing to them. 1311 01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:42,200 You know, absolutely nothing. 1312 01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:43,680 We'll take a couple million. 1313 01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:47,640 We'll put it in a Dow treasury and we'll create the Coca-Cola Dow. 1314 01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:53,000 Now everybody who is in it, you buy an NFT and you are a Coca-Cola citizen. 1315 01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:55,400 And you can be part of the Coca-Cola world. 1316 01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,800 The Coca-Cola country. 1317 01:18:57,800 --> 01:18:59,180 You are a citizen. 1318 01:18:59,180 --> 01:19:01,320 You're not just a brand representative. 1319 01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:03,420 You're not just wearing Nike shoes. 1320 01:19:03,420 --> 01:19:05,280 You are part of the country, Nike. 1321 01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:07,980 You're a citizen of Nike. 1322 01:19:07,980 --> 01:19:09,980 What do you get for that? 1323 01:19:09,980 --> 01:19:13,480 Right now, if you wear your shoes, you just represent the brand for free. 1324 01:19:13,480 --> 01:19:18,060 But if you buy the NFT or you're airdropped it or something, you're part of this Dow community. 1325 01:19:18,060 --> 01:19:20,100 You can rise up. 1326 01:19:20,100 --> 01:19:22,860 What if you have great marketing strategy ideas? 1327 01:19:22,860 --> 01:19:29,440 What if you're a kid from Istanbul who's 17 but has fantastic marketing ideas or graphic 1328 01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:30,520 design skills? 1329 01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,960 You propose them through a Coca-Cola improvement proposal, a CIP. 1330 01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:35,960 They get traction. 1331 01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:37,000 They move up. 1332 01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:41,660 You get more money than you ever could have made working locally. 1333 01:19:41,660 --> 01:19:43,480 And you get known, you get a team. 1334 01:19:43,480 --> 01:19:46,040 I mean, Coca-Cola is watching all of this. 1335 01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:51,640 You have another team that has a million dollars just to spend for the public good. 1336 01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:52,640 All it is. 1337 01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:57,720 Right now, just to help out communities, to help out minorities, to help out disadvantaged 1338 01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,880 people, they can focus on whatever they want. 1339 01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:02,560 How does this look bad for Coca-Cola? 1340 01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:04,360 This looks fantastic. 1341 01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:08,680 So Coca-Cola would have people from around the world or Nike or Reebok. 1342 01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,760 All of them would have customers, consumers. 1343 01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:17,600 Because while I am pretty anti-capitalist, I'm a Buddhist and a Taoist, I live in the 1344 01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,200 real world of capitalism in America. 1345 01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,240 I am not trying to disrupt the world. 1346 01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:25,720 I'm trying to figure out how we make it better. 1347 01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:29,820 So we get these big companies that have these enormous treasuries that have consumers and 1348 01:20:29,820 --> 01:20:33,920 what they want is the customer to feel connected to their brand. 1349 01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:37,280 Right now, if you buy a pair of Nike shoes, you know what you don't get? 1350 01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:38,280 Money. 1351 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:43,480 How about you buy a Nike NFT and you get to be part of a Dow that is five million in its 1352 01:20:43,480 --> 01:20:48,360 treasury, and you can make all kinds of proposals and you can get compensation. 1353 01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:53,640 You can have teams that run it and get money for all people all around the world. 1354 01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:58,640 Nike could, they could slash their advertising costs if they have their own customers doing 1355 01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:00,240 their ad campaigns. 1356 01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,640 They could slash costs all over the place. 1357 01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:04,400 You could have people around the world. 1358 01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:11,280 You could create a customer base that is international, that knows very little divisiveness, that 1359 01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:16,220 is incredibly diverse, that is committed to your brand because they're personally benefiting, 1360 01:21:16,220 --> 01:21:19,440 and you could give back to communities. 1361 01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:23,400 I don't see why any company wouldn't do this. 1362 01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:24,940 And I think they will. 1363 01:21:24,940 --> 01:21:31,840 I think, look, we have a Dow law in America in two out of 50 states. 1364 01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:33,960 This is not even taken off yet. 1365 01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:37,000 No one knows what this is. 1366 01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,120 We don't have the Dow law in 50 states. 1367 01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:40,800 We will. 1368 01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:44,040 And when we do, then people are going to figure out what to do with it. 1369 01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:46,760 Well, you know who helps them figure out? 1370 01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:47,760 We do. 1371 01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:49,080 And you know how we help them figure it out? 1372 01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:52,520 By academic work, by the creation of knowledge. 1373 01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:54,840 Now, that's not the only thing. 1374 01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:58,880 You know, let's say you're doing all this work in Sandow and you're on the ground and 1375 01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:02,560 you're writing SIPs and you're developing the community and running this podcast. 1376 01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:07,600 And let's say I am a PhD scholar, which I am, and I want to write a paper and I want 1377 01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:08,760 to work with you. 1378 01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:12,400 And it discusses how did a Dow just come into being like that? 1379 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:15,560 Because hey, if Sandow did it this way, so could Coca-Cola. 1380 01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:17,660 They could work privately for eight months. 1381 01:22:17,660 --> 01:22:22,560 And what you and I could study would be how did this affect the community attitudes towards 1382 01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:23,560 the Dow? 1383 01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:25,260 All we do is interview people, give out a survey. 1384 01:22:25,260 --> 01:22:27,680 Did people feel good about starting the Dow this way? 1385 01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:28,680 What were their things they were? 1386 01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:29,680 They did not. 1387 01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:33,000 So, well, and then why and what would make them feel better? 1388 01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:34,000 And how did it happen? 1389 01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,000 And what could be? 1390 01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:41,880 We write this into a paper and we demonstrate that this maybe was not the most effective 1391 01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:45,960 way for brand loyalty and for consumer engagement. 1392 01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:50,760 And we throw in these kind of words and we use some classical theories of marketing and 1393 01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:57,580 advertising or customer satisfaction theories or the rational theory of choice of motivation. 1394 01:22:57,580 --> 01:22:58,580 You write a paper. 1395 01:22:58,580 --> 01:23:01,040 I mean, that's all it is. 1396 01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:07,840 And then universities, companies, I mean, you want to make money, ask how much money 1397 01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:09,560 Coca-Cola has. 1398 01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:14,760 You know, this is not I used to tell the people as a final point on this when I was a theater 1399 01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:18,840 teacher and they would say, David, we need to charge more for tickets. 1400 01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:23,640 And I would say no, because you don't make your money from tickets and you don't make 1401 01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:28,140 your money from classes and you don't make your money from selling t-shirts. 1402 01:23:28,140 --> 01:23:34,000 You make your money from getting commercials and you only get commercials if you're the 1403 01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,000 fucking best. 1404 01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:36,000 Oh, can I curse? 1405 01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:37,000 I'm sorry. 1406 01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:38,000 I cursed. 1407 01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:44,920 Two of my actors are now multimillionaires listed in the top 10 A list actors in China. 1408 01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:50,760 They are so rich that they came to me crying after this was all over telling me that they 1409 01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:57,640 lie to their parents because they are ashamed that they have so much money. 1410 01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:03,080 They are rich beyond their wildest dreams. 1411 01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:06,840 And they didn't get that money by charging $10 instead of five for a ticket. 1412 01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:12,400 And you know what, we don't get it by charging $20, 200 instead of 20 for an NFT. 1413 01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:13,920 That's just not where the money comes from. 1414 01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:15,640 Not the real money. 1415 01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:21,160 You know, the money doesn't come from I have a brand of coffee called Sandow coffee and 1416 01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:26,560 I'm going to return 2% to the treasury and I expect returns of $1,000 per month. 1417 01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:27,560 Cool. 1418 01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:28,560 That's awesome. 1419 01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:31,240 Do it up for brand loyalty and engagement. 1420 01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:32,240 Let's get involved. 1421 01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:37,320 Like that's not Oxford money. 1422 01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:39,840 That's not Coca-Cola money. 1423 01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:45,040 They will throw millions of dollars your way if they think it can increase their brand 1424 01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:48,440 engagement half a percent. 1425 01:24:48,440 --> 01:24:53,760 Like companies don't know about this and they will and they will throw money at whichever 1426 01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:55,480 Dow has a seat at the table. 1427 01:24:55,480 --> 01:24:56,480 Yeah. 1428 01:24:56,480 --> 01:25:03,760 And the way you spoke about that, I was looking at it through those lens as well. 1429 01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:09,920 Whoever can bridge the old and the new. 1430 01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:18,160 Old is the wrong way but the persistent common language of humanity and business and all 1431 01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:23,840 the different ways of being in the world versus what we are evolving into, which we don't 1432 01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:24,840 know yet. 1433 01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:28,640 We are still very much under debate and discussion and conflict and tension. 1434 01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:32,200 All of that is messy and this is more stable. 1435 01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:33,720 Stable as can be really. 1436 01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:38,880 But if you can find a way to bridge that, like you mentioned a paper and then bridging 1437 01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:45,280 well-known business concepts or like McClelland's or Hertzberg's, all these different things 1438 01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:51,000 that I learned in business school that if I can then connect as having a foundation 1439 01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:57,560 of hey, I know what McClelland's theory is and what's the need of achievement or power 1440 01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:06,160 have to do with sandbox Dow and if I can make that connection, if I can articulate that 1441 01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:12,080 in a way that someone over here can understand, then more people over here will start to bridge 1442 01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:16,120 that gap and then just start horizontal. 1443 01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,200 I mean I love the example of Hertzberg. 1444 01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:21,200 The opposite of satisfaction is not dissatisfaction. 1445 01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:25,280 The opposite of satisfaction is no satisfaction and the opposite of dissatisfaction is no 1446 01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:26,280 dissatisfaction. 1447 01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:30,920 You take a theory like that, which is engaging and reasonable to understand. 1448 01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:39,320 You couple it with some data about sandbox Dow and you publish that in a business journal 1449 01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:45,200 marketed towards here's what a Dow does and how it potentially could be used. 1450 01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:48,280 Here's how it was implemented by this particular organization and here's ways it could have 1451 01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:49,280 been improved. 1452 01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:53,560 I mean this is, there are many bridges to get to the new land. 1453 01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:54,560 It's not difficult. 1454 01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:55,560 It just takes effort. 1455 01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:56,560 And time. 1456 01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:57,560 Yeah. 1457 01:26:57,560 --> 01:26:58,560 It's not difficult. 1458 01:26:58,560 --> 01:26:59,560 Time and effort, yeah. 1459 01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:05,320 Especially if you have an understanding or even a Wikipedia knowledge base, let's call 1460 01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:11,480 it of business acumen or you've owned your own business and so you know what a balance 1461 01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:12,480 sheet looks like. 1462 01:27:12,480 --> 01:27:19,280 Like you know, all you have to do is just connect it now to what academic theory has 1463 01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:24,080 been studied, it's relied upon and it has the necessary rigor behind it. 1464 01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:30,760 That if you connect it appropriately, then now you just access this whole network of 1465 01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:33,680 very well connected, very powerful. 1466 01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:35,120 You made an important point before. 1467 01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:40,080 The old world with the new and part of the old world for publishing these kind of articles 1468 01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:42,460 is being a PhD scholar. 1469 01:27:42,460 --> 01:27:45,240 It's hard to get that done if you're not. 1470 01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:48,280 The network is really only available to them. 1471 01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:49,520 It's the same with being a lawyer. 1472 01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:52,480 There's just things I'm allowed to do because I'm a licensed attorney. 1473 01:27:52,480 --> 01:27:53,480 Anybody could do them. 1474 01:27:53,480 --> 01:27:55,720 They're just not allowed. 1475 01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:59,280 You know, and as a PhD scholar, anybody could publish in a journal. 1476 01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:04,040 Theoretically, I had never seen an article published by someone who wasn't, who didn't 1477 01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:05,040 have a PhD. 1478 01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:11,020 If I were to attack this and I wasn't a PhD person, I would first start with the Web 1479 01:28:11,020 --> 01:28:13,240 3 network. 1480 01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:21,080 So like Coingraf, Cointelegraph or yes, somewhere like in that realm. 1481 01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:26,680 And then I would start moving to Forbes, just announced their own Forbes Web 3. 1482 01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:28,560 It's probably in there. 1483 01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:37,680 Then I would target the the undergraduate academic portion of a blockchain oriented 1484 01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:43,520 people within Harvard, you could call it University of South Carolina, doesn't matter. 1485 01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:49,160 But you start building the foundation of you had said before, bridges. 1486 01:28:49,160 --> 01:28:53,080 And you know, I live in a city where there are lots of bridges. 1487 01:28:53,080 --> 01:28:55,920 Many of them will get you to the same place, just different bridges. 1488 01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:57,600 So that's certainly a bridge. 1489 01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,800 Now what I would do, I would take that same article and publish in the American Journal 1490 01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:03,560 of Management. 1491 01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:09,600 And while you're getting a base of young people and support and Forbes and this and that, 1492 01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:11,920 what I'd be getting is citations. 1493 01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:15,900 And let's say I get 500 citations from scholars. 1494 01:29:15,900 --> 01:29:20,680 And now when your students who you're cultivating want to write articles about stuff, they're 1495 01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,760 citing me. 1496 01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:27,360 We're going to get to the same place and I hope we're going to get there together. 1497 01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:30,760 And it's okay that there I mean, we got to build more than one bridge for sure. 1498 01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:31,760 Yeah. 1499 01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:34,800 All right, so that was an interesting detour. 1500 01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:37,680 What was your your role in city down? 1501 01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:41,640 I got that you were part of the legal guild and the education and research guild. 1502 01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:45,400 But I thought there was a different go ahead. 1503 01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:47,720 I would call it myself a facilitator. 1504 01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:50,000 That's usually the word we used. 1505 01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:55,040 I thought I heard a director of partnership or something about that line. 1506 01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:56,040 Okay. 1507 01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:57,640 Must have misheard then. 1508 01:29:57,640 --> 01:29:59,880 So what did you do inside city down? 1509 01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:01,680 Why you were there? 1510 01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:06,040 Well, for the legal guild, we held weekly meetings that were open to everybody. 1511 01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:07,200 We discussed the legal stuff. 1512 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:15,600 And then I worked with the other lawyers to draft the contracts agreements, the independent 1513 01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:24,360 contractor agreements, the legal rules when we had any sort of conference or get together 1514 01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:28,400 or things like that to discuss with the rest of the Dow what you should and shouldn't say 1515 01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:31,020 publicly and you know, all of the legal stuff. 1516 01:30:31,020 --> 01:30:33,660 And then with the education guild, we held a weekly call. 1517 01:30:33,660 --> 01:30:35,960 We also held a weekly discussion. 1518 01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:37,680 We also held a bunch of different projects. 1519 01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:40,540 Like I said, we did a convention. 1520 01:30:40,540 --> 01:30:47,920 We taught a course in I think it was New Zealand at a very reputable university there where 1521 01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,540 they were teaching about blockchain and city down was their case study for the whole semester. 1522 01:30:52,540 --> 01:30:58,000 So me and that economist Scott, different Scott had both gone in and we were kind of 1523 01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:03,040 professors there alongside the New Zealand professors and we had groups of college students 1524 01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:08,940 that spent months on our discord and in the discourse forum looking at CIPs and then they 1525 01:31:08,940 --> 01:31:11,340 made their own proposals of how to improve the Dow. 1526 01:31:11,340 --> 01:31:19,600 So trying to take it to the academic way and we're a bunch of other big main proposals. 1527 01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:24,440 We did this thing in East Denver and those are the ones that come to mind. 1528 01:31:24,440 --> 01:31:29,060 We did, you know, mean brains around the podcast. 1529 01:31:29,060 --> 01:31:33,400 I was just looking at his profile while we were we're talking about him and I did see 1530 01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:38,080 and didn't notice it before but but city podcast. 1531 01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:42,880 So what sort of governance structure did Sant the city Dow adopt? 1532 01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:49,380 Well at the beginning we had non quadratic voting. 1533 01:31:49,380 --> 01:31:52,640 So one NFT equals one vote. 1534 01:31:52,640 --> 01:31:57,980 So there were people who were whales so to speak, you know, we nobody had millions but 1535 01:31:57,980 --> 01:32:03,880 there were people who had like 200 or 300 NFTs and our forum. 1536 01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:10,040 We had two levels that and this was a learning exercise for me where if you made a proposal 1537 01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:15,360 for zero to $10,000 it required on I don't know if I'm going to remember all of these 1538 01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:19,820 exactly but I think it was 250 NFT votes. 1539 01:32:19,820 --> 01:32:28,700 And if above 10,000 it required 500 NFT votes and it was I think 50% majority to pass. 1540 01:32:28,700 --> 01:32:33,000 Now that was okay for a while until people figured out how to game the system which is 1541 01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:40,500 to say 999,000 was everything you know and as long as you could kind of what eight coins 1542 01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:45,760 going through right now it is I have no idea why they did this because we fixed it. 1543 01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:51,440 We fixed this problem by creating an algorithmic formula that I told a point about which was 1544 01:32:51,440 --> 01:32:58,240 the more money you asked for it was then the higher voter approval rating that you would 1545 01:32:58,240 --> 01:32:59,240 need. 1546 01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:01,600 You don't make it 69. 1547 01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:03,680 I mean come on that's adorable. 1548 01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:08,920 It's cute guys but like you can't have the same approval rating for somebody asking for 1549 01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:11,760 $100,000 and $3 million. 1550 01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:12,840 You shouldn't. 1551 01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:13,840 I don't think. 1552 01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:19,000 If you have the exact same vote for that then if you amass enough people on your side why 1553 01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:24,000 would you ever ask for less than $10 million or whatever it would be like so you want to 1554 01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:29,920 make it a cap of 250,000 great now everybody's going to do 249,999. 1555 01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:32,680 Fine like all you did was that. 1556 01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:38,640 So okay but you know we did find an elegant solution that our economist proposed that 1557 01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:45,000 was an algorithmic curve so that there was a minimum in city that if you ask yeah no 1558 01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:51,960 matter how little you asked for you needed at least I think it was a hundred votes quadratic 1559 01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:57,520 so we started using quadratic voting where it's the square root of the number of NFTs 1560 01:33:57,520 --> 01:33:58,920 you have. 1561 01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:03,360 I wish a point would do that too but so if you have I sit wait say it again slower the 1562 01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:07,280 square root of the number of NFTs you have. 1563 01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:21,760 So let's say that I am rich and I have a thousand tokens so the number of votes that I can exercise 1564 01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:23,760 is the square root of a thousand. 1565 01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:29,320 Let's make it 10,000 I have 10,000 so the square root of 10,000 is a hundred right is 1566 01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:34,480 a thousand a hundred a hundred times a hundred ten thousand. 1567 01:34:34,480 --> 01:34:46,120 I'm pretty sure a hundred yeah so I have 10,000 I have 10,000 NFTs that means I get the square 1568 01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:49,360 root of 10,000 votes. 1569 01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:57,840 That makes sense no no you lost me okay if I have one NFT what's the square root of one? 1570 01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:05,800 One yes so if you have one NFT you get one vote to get two votes how many NFTs would 1571 01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:07,800 you need to own? 1572 01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:17,720 Four yes to get three votes what's three times three? 1573 01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:24,840 Nine yeah so as you want to buy more votes like an Apecoin you want a million votes buy 1574 01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:36,200 million tokens but with Quadratic if you want five votes five votes you need to buy 25 tokens 1575 01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:38,960 right square root of 25 is five. 1576 01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:41,880 Does that make sense? 1577 01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:44,360 I hear what you're saying I don't understand why you're saying. 1578 01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:48,800 Oh yeah I'll get there I'll get there just so if you want to have five votes you need 1579 01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:51,600 25 tokens that makes sense right? 1580 01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:52,840 Okay. 1581 01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:56,800 Now if you want to have one more vote so now you want to have six votes. 1582 01:35:56,800 --> 01:36:03,640 Thirty-six you're going to need to have 36 tokens so whenever whenever a proposal is 1583 01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:12,240 on the floor for voting if I have 36 NFTs it's only going to equal six votes correct 1584 01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:21,340 for everything for everything now let's say you have a hundred NFTs you're a whale at 1585 01:36:21,340 --> 01:36:25,520 CityDow if you have a hundred NFTs so you have a hundred NFTs that means you're going 1586 01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:33,120 to get ten votes I don't like your proposal I think it's bad for CityDow to defeat you 1587 01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:43,320 I just need to get eleven people eleven individuals and defeat one rich person no and if you 1588 01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:48,000 have a hundred votes let's say you want to you want to get eleven votes instead of ten 1589 01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:53,720 it gets algorithmically you know exponentially bigger if you have a hundred NFTs you get 1590 01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:59,600 ten votes if you wanted eleven votes now you need a hundred and twenty one this is good 1591 01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:04,440 for our treasury because if people want hey you want to buy the votes fine but it's going 1592 01:37:04,440 --> 01:37:12,500 to cost you so much more and I can defeat your bad idea by just getting a couple more 1593 01:37:12,500 --> 01:37:20,040 people with one NFT each to oppose you so the the little people with a little bit of 1594 01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:30,960 money can oppose the rich okay so for sandbox you have a hundred lands then let's just say 1595 01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:40,920 36 lands then you have in effect six lands for voting I mean if you did it that way it 1596 01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:45,760 depends the purpose of voting this way is to get rid of whales or to reduce whales power 1597 01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:56,240 okay because if you can reduce whales power then you can get a large group of poor people 1598 01:37:56,240 --> 01:38:02,120 a large group of people with one NFT or one token can actually challenge a rich person 1599 01:38:02,120 --> 01:38:08,320 yeah so that was our purpose with that and that was for the quorum and then for the voter 1600 01:38:08,320 --> 01:38:14,640 approval rating which like ape dow just made it 69 percent that percentage was an algorithm 1601 01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:19,720 that went up the more you asked for so you could ask for our whole treasury but it's 1602 01:38:19,720 --> 01:38:25,760 going to take like a 99 approval rating if you ask for five thousand dollars it would 1603 01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:33,080 take like a 35 approval rating so you need to pass quorum and you need to get an approval 1604 01:38:33,080 --> 01:38:41,520 rating so approval rating was is not quorum no quorum if you don't get enough rating 1605 01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:46,920 would be not even legitimate approval rating would be it needs x percentage of vote to 1606 01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:54,240 pass yes correct all right got it where ape coin dow was 50 percent now or 51 now they 1607 01:38:54,240 --> 01:39:00,920 just made it 69 for votes above 250k okay so and this scaled up the higher percentage 1608 01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:07,680 you got for the the budget was in the more money you requested oh the more money okay 1609 01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:13,480 of the higher your percentage to pass would need to be these are interesting things i'd 1610 01:39:13,480 --> 01:39:23,000 like to consider we thought a lot about governance how do you stop whales from controlling this 1611 01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:28,920 and i feel like we did successfully stop whales what we didn't foresee was regional delegations 1612 01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:37,560 okay let's get into that you i believe this is where you started talking about probably 1613 01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:43,600 i can only stay for about 10 more minutes i gotta go oh all right let's triage then 1614 01:39:43,600 --> 01:39:51,880 what we've got left here because we're coming up on two hours sure okay what what are some 1615 01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:56,680 lessons let's just rapid fire and then we'll use whatever time we have left what are some 1616 01:39:56,680 --> 01:40:05,240 lessons that you'd offer any dow about governance stuff that you learned from city now if people 1617 01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:14,680 aren't kind to each other you have an immediate giant problem that's number one money people 1618 01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:20,340 will come to a place they want to be and then they will find ways to make money people will 1619 01:40:20,340 --> 01:40:24,120 not come to a place where it's not a nice place to be and everybody's trying to figure 1620 01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:28,920 out how to make money it's about the place it's not about the money people think it's 1621 01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:33,720 about the money the number one reason people take a job according to studies is the salary 1622 01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:37,560 and the number one reason people leave a job is because they have a bad relationship with 1623 01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:43,960 their boss number two relationship bad bad relationship with your co-workers so people 1624 01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:47,480 enter for money and they leave because they don't enjoy relationships and that's been 1625 01:40:47,480 --> 01:40:52,600 proven time and time again in multiple industries and it's just as true here if it's not a place 1626 01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:58,840 that's enjoyable to be it will not work financially what are your view on what is your view on 1627 01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:06,360 governance working groups i'm too new to ape coin doubt a really weigh in on their effectiveness 1628 01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:10,840 though i guess i would go back to michelle's iron law of oligarchy if you have a small 1629 01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:14,920 group of people making a lot of money and it's not clear exactly to everyone what they 1630 01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:21,440 are doing they will try to defend their position and say they're working hard in order to keep 1631 01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:27,640 their privileged position of money and power what are some successful ways you've seen 1632 01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:39,920 to maximize community communication video on calls irl meetings talking to people consistently 1633 01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:47,800 outside the dow whether it's phone or text but like not just meeting for calls actually 1634 01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:52,680 reaching out every single day to people and having conversations with them finding out 1635 01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:57,600 what people's interests are besides just the dow getting to know them on a human level 1636 01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:13,640 okay and sandbox the same box game as as you've seen is a metaverse gaming place the sandbox 1637 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:20,800 dow is a community who is still struggling to understand what its relationship is most 1638 01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:26,440 of the sentiments right now is that the the way sandbox dow was introduced out of the 1639 01:42:26,440 --> 01:42:32,280 norm out of the blue was thrust on people mostly as a negative viewpoint people are 1640 01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:37,360 declining to participate in some cases some of them just vote no on every single proposal 1641 01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:46,920 till they believe that a voice from the community is put onto governance type leadership places 1642 01:42:46,920 --> 01:42:56,720 under these conditions what would you offer as an emergency triage addressing opening 1643 01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:04,880 up the levels of trust or regain some semblance of participation can ask a couple questions 1644 01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:10,040 sure as many as you feel you can get as long as we can get to an answer before you go go 1645 01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:18,360 here how do you vote is it based on the sand you own a sense of and so one sand equals 1646 01:43:18,360 --> 01:43:25,360 one voting power one land equals forty five hundred voting power just regardless of the 1647 01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:29,880 size of the land regardless of the size so if you have one hundred lands you have one 1648 01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:39,240 hundred times what do you need what's quorum quorum is currently thirty million so it's 1649 01:43:39,240 --> 01:43:50,360 one percent of the total supply do most votes meet quorum the last three have failed the 1650 01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:55,560 past two that just passed the past couple days only met quorum because sandbox use its 1651 01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:59,680 twenty seven million voting power from the wallet otherwise it would have failed so we 1652 01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:03,640 don't yet know what that is that's also kinda pushed into mistrust this whole thing about 1653 01:44:03,640 --> 01:44:07,960 how sandbox that they wouldn't use it but they did this time around it wouldn't have 1654 01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:12,800 made vote otherwise it it it abstained so it didn't change the vote it just allowed 1655 01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:19,520 it for the s votes to have have any votes achieved that quorum that didn't involve sandbox 1656 01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:29,600 using their voting power yes the of the thirteen uh... i think seven or eight of them passed 1657 01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:36,840 without and who had i mean thirty million like who had voting power like where there 1658 01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:41,360 some individuals who have five or ten million or something though it seemed to be i mean 1659 01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:45,400 that there's some of them i don't think there was one that was over five million there were 1660 01:44:45,400 --> 01:44:51,000 a few one millions but it was mostly uh... just people voting there's a pretty good how 1661 01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:55,400 many people then you're talking about thirty million i mean can you give me a general on 1662 01:44:55,400 --> 01:45:00,600 a on a good vote how many individuals vote uh... somewhere between two to three hundred 1663 01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:08,000 that's one so people must have quite significant voting power uh... some of them do but like 1664 01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:13,480 i said i don't think i saw one of them even above five million but if you have let's see 1665 01:45:13,480 --> 01:45:18,200 look at the math you're talking about you need thirty million so let's look at the one 1666 01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:22,900 that just uh... let's look at it by three hundred people you would need about a hundred 1667 01:45:22,900 --> 01:45:28,200 thousand each person for three hundred people so six six right at seven hundred eighty 1668 01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:33,720 two voters that was the most popular community set the first one top one had three point 1669 01:45:33,720 --> 01:45:40,360 six million voting power so yeah okay i'm i'm getting an idea of it i'd have to look 1670 01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:44,080 at a spreadsheet you know in more detail to get a real sense of how many are over five 1671 01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:47,760 hundred thousand how many are over and of those that are over five hundred thousand 1672 01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:52,680 how often have they voted you know how has it been consistent or no problem it's it's 1673 01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:54,680 some of the enough 1674 01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:59,560 yes some of some of those data points would be valuable but you're as you said you're 1675 01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:04,720 very new so there wouldn't be that much data 1676 01:46:04,720 --> 01:46:06,440 do you have a treasury 1677 01:46:06,440 --> 01:46:07,520 we do 1678 01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:09,120 fifteen point five 1679 01:46:09,120 --> 01:46:14,640 fifteen point five million sand of which we spent fifteen percent 1680 01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:16,840 what's the current price of sand 1681 01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:23,840 it was twenty six cents 1682 01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:27,760 let's see if it was twenty four cents right now 1683 01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:28,660 times 1684 01:46:28,660 --> 01:46:30,360 twenty five cents 1685 01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:34,440 okay so you have three point seven five million dollars ish 1686 01:46:34,440 --> 01:46:38,600 are there is there a financial team that's in charge of the treasury 1687 01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:40,640 negative 1688 01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:46,560 when uh... s i p passes how does the money get from the multi sick to the proposers 1689 01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:49,880 there is a doubt administrative team 1690 01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:51,840 which it was commissioned by sebastian 1691 01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:53,240 or jay 1692 01:46:53,240 --> 01:46:55,560 the the co-founder 1693 01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:57,080 and they are 1694 01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:59,460 they have control of wallets 1695 01:46:59,460 --> 01:47:00,480 question mark 1696 01:47:00,480 --> 01:47:04,240 and or seven his team then transfers the money 1697 01:47:04,240 --> 01:47:05,520 person okay 1698 01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:09,320 so none of the leaders of the dow 1699 01:47:09,320 --> 01:47:12,240 who have significant administrative power 1700 01:47:12,240 --> 01:47:17,280 were chosen by the dow 1701 01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:19,440 you could theoretically argue 1702 01:47:19,440 --> 01:47:21,240 that that is the case because 1703 01:47:21,240 --> 01:47:24,280 the the dow pass the first three steps 1704 01:47:24,280 --> 01:47:25,520 although 1705 01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:26,840 that was uh... 1706 01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:29,240 i would not count that as a 1707 01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:31,080 call it a a real 1708 01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:32,800 test of the community's 1709 01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:35,160 and indication couple other questions 1710 01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:37,080 who is the highest 1711 01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:41,760 or what is the highest elected position that you have in this town 1712 01:47:41,760 --> 01:47:44,440 uh... it is the special counsel 1713 01:47:44,440 --> 01:47:47,120 which are it uh... five 1714 01:47:47,120 --> 01:47:48,480 five-member 1715 01:47:48,480 --> 01:47:49,160 team 1716 01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:52,120 uh... yet sues on it 1717 01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:54,600 sebastian borgia john michelle pile 1718 01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:56,080 chan's and those 1719 01:47:56,080 --> 01:48:00,440 those people were chosen by the dow voting not by the 1720 01:48:00,440 --> 01:48:02,480 not by the sandbox deciding 1721 01:48:02,480 --> 01:48:04,880 they sebastian borgia 1722 01:48:04,880 --> 01:48:08,120 sent to join the special counsel 1723 01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:11,620 the second sip was the one that ratified the special counsel 1724 01:48:11,620 --> 01:48:15,720 okay so they weren't elected by the people necessary 1725 01:48:15,720 --> 01:48:20,120 what it was a lot of people are voting no because of that 1726 01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:24,960 do you know what salary they're getting is that clear hundred thousand sand 1727 01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:28,720 per year just in your ear 1728 01:48:28,720 --> 01:48:32,200 a hundred thousand sand of the summer much 1729 01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:33,840 and forget sue i mean 1730 01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:37,000 owned animal like the biggest web three company 1731 01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:40,520 ever of all time 1732 01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:43,820 okay so there are no i mean i don't mean this to be 1733 01:48:43,820 --> 01:48:44,920 disparaging 1734 01:48:44,920 --> 01:48:47,680 but it sounds like there are no high-level leaders have been chosen from 1735 01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:48,800 the 1736 01:48:48,800 --> 01:48:51,520 down members really correct 1737 01:48:51,520 --> 01:48:57,520 okay that would be safe to say 1738 01:48:57,520 --> 01:48:59,760 that's where a lot of problems 1739 01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:00,560 is broken 1740 01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:02,820 right now sure sure 1741 01:49:02,820 --> 01:49:05,840 well i mean no trust was really established so there isn't much to break 1742 01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:06,560 but 1743 01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:12,280 bear also fair 1744 01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:15,280 you know obviously what you would want would be 1745 01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:16,960 to 1746 01:49:16,960 --> 01:49:22,040 almost like unionize you'd you know i think you would want the community 1747 01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:26,440 without the involvement of any whales i would almost 1748 01:49:26,440 --> 01:49:29,440 wonder if there's a way to make an informal vote 1749 01:49:29,440 --> 01:49:30,440 of 1750 01:49:30,440 --> 01:49:32,060 anybody with 1751 01:49:32,060 --> 01:49:33,480 under 1752 01:49:33,480 --> 01:49:37,200 a hundred thousand sand may vote and nobody with more camp 1753 01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:39,000 and it is that 1754 01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:43,840 well i did try to elect a representative from within the people who are involved 1755 01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:47,020 but not heavily invested in 1756 01:49:47,020 --> 01:49:48,640 this project 1757 01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:51,680 now maybe you make it anybody with less than a million whatever it is like 1758 01:49:51,680 --> 01:49:56,060 just a vote that can't be controlled by the whales like a uh... 1759 01:49:56,060 --> 01:49:58,720 up more like a poll an informal poll 1760 01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:01,780 where you try to elect let's say three 1761 01:50:01,780 --> 01:50:04,240 representatives of the dow 1762 01:50:04,240 --> 01:50:07,560 who have no formal affiliation with sandbox or anything like that 1763 01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:10,360 and then try to hold a meeting between those three 1764 01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:12,560 and the special counsel 1765 01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:15,160 to find out what it is 1766 01:50:15,160 --> 01:50:18,420 the that sandbox what what do they want 1767 01:50:18,420 --> 01:50:20,360 from this down 1768 01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:24,200 because you know in working in this kind of situation 1769 01:50:24,200 --> 01:50:26,620 to me it seems have no leverage 1770 01:50:26,620 --> 01:50:29,600 you can't make demands on them that's correct 1771 01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:33,480 what you need to know is what is it they want to achieve 1772 01:50:33,480 --> 01:50:39,520 and how can you help them achieve that 1773 01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:41,960 art uh... let's go back to 1774 01:50:41,960 --> 01:50:43,840 give me as many rapid fires we have 1775 01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:44,960 i'm left for 1776 01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:48,920 sixty eight proposals at a city now i heard you say 1777 01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:52,600 uh... out there algorithmic solutions for quorum and approval ratings what are 1778 01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:54,460 some other rapid fire type 1779 01:50:54,460 --> 01:50:58,240 best practices that you learned out of that 1780 01:50:58,240 --> 01:50:59,400 standardized 1781 01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:01,480 c i p s or s i p s 1782 01:51:01,480 --> 01:51:04,400 making sure that every single one is legal 1783 01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:06,360 extreme transparency 1784 01:51:06,360 --> 01:51:08,880 uh... and obviously that's an issue you're talking about cuz to me that goes 1785 01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:10,500 directly to trust 1786 01:51:10,500 --> 01:51:13,280 you know you need to be able not just to 1787 01:51:13,280 --> 01:51:14,920 get of report 1788 01:51:14,920 --> 01:51:19,160 from somebody about what they did or didn't theoretically do they need to be 1789 01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:22,280 available for calls they need to be beholden 1790 01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:27,360 they need accountability i mean accountability for me is a real keyword 1791 01:51:27,360 --> 01:51:30,200 people need to see what they're going to do and then 1792 01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:33,080 do it by that deadline or not get paid 1793 01:51:33,080 --> 01:51:36,000 people cannot 1794 01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:39,160 how did city down do that 1795 01:51:39,160 --> 01:51:42,480 we did our best not to pay in one lump sum 1796 01:51:42,480 --> 01:51:44,420 also 1797 01:51:44,420 --> 01:51:48,320 you know we we tried to use bounty boards 1798 01:51:48,320 --> 01:51:52,320 we give people bounties instead of giving them compensation 1799 01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:56,280 and if you had a project you try to break it into parts and you don't get the next 1800 01:51:56,280 --> 01:51:58,160 part until the first part is met 1801 01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:03,440 and we'd have to make sure that everything is overseen by your peers and 1802 01:52:03,440 --> 01:52:05,640 not by the quote unquote leaders 1803 01:52:05,640 --> 01:52:08,460 because there's always the temptation for the leaders to just not give you the 1804 01:52:08,460 --> 01:52:11,000 second part of the money or the third part 1805 01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:13,080 where what you need is 1806 01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:19,680 governance by the people for the people 1807 01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:21,400 i'm seeing some cross 1808 01:52:21,400 --> 01:52:24,100 uh... some intersectionality with sandbox on that one 1809 01:52:24,100 --> 01:52:25,660 uh... thank you for your time 1810 01:52:25,660 --> 01:52:28,400 i really appreciate you very much discussion 1811 01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:30,000 and 1812 01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:33,160 i think we got through like eighty eighty five percent of the question so that 1813 01:52:33,160 --> 01:52:35,200 there's no 1814 01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:39,120 we got exactly what we're after which is learning from city down 1815 01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:40,840 learning from your experience 1816 01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:43,420 which is vast and i think we spent 1817 01:52:43,420 --> 01:52:45,020 at least an hour and a half 1818 01:52:45,020 --> 01:52:46,800 talking theoretical stuff 1819 01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:50,840 but even there i was able to pick out some pieces that i think 1820 01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:54,740 is very interested to in relevant to the the sandbox down 1821 01:52:54,740 --> 01:52:58,400 well i think we should be opportunity and i'm very happy to meet you and i 1822 01:52:58,400 --> 01:52:59,280 hope we can 1823 01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:01,620 keep talking in the future i really 1824 01:53:01,620 --> 01:53:04,080 i really applaud your efforts 1825 01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:06,000 the 1826 01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:07,840 attitude and precision 1827 01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:11,320 that you're taking in trying to move this forwards 1828 01:53:11,320 --> 01:53:14,680 thank you that those are very kind words i appreciate that 1829 01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:15,460 are there any 1830 01:53:15,460 --> 01:53:19,760 uh... closing comments any shout outs you'd like to give 1831 01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:23,900 big shout out to scott the founder scott fits the founder of city down 1832 01:53:23,900 --> 01:53:25,940 and shout out to all the people in 1833 01:53:25,940 --> 01:53:28,520 in city down you know i won't list them all by name but 1834 01:53:28,520 --> 01:53:31,400 it's been a great experience shout out to a point now 1835 01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:32,920 and shout out to 1836 01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:36,800 all the the nice people i've met their shout out to your community 1837 01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:38,400 and then ultimately 1838 01:53:38,400 --> 01:53:41,140 shout out to every 1839 01:53:41,140 --> 01:53:43,560 kid or person sitting at home 1840 01:53:43,560 --> 01:53:46,960 looking listening to this and being like i wonder if i could be part of this 1841 01:53:46,960 --> 01:53:49,360 because i'm not a lawyer and i'm not a coder 1842 01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:53,000 and i'm not in anything and you know 1843 01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:54,640 shout out to that person 1844 01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:58,720 who absolutely like this it's not just that you could be a part of this this is 1845 01:53:58,720 --> 01:53:59,620 your place 1846 01:53:59,620 --> 01:54:01,800 this is for you this isn't 1847 01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:05,720 this isn't for me i'll be dead soon enough this is for 1848 01:54:05,720 --> 01:54:09,800 the young people who are like what what could the future possibly hold like this 1849 01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:11,880 is what it could hold 1850 01:54:11,880 --> 01:54:12,880 absolutely 1851 01:54:12,880 --> 01:54:16,440 and shout out to you my in the chat who has been very very active 1852 01:54:16,440 --> 01:54:17,400 having a 1853 01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:18,960 little mini conversation 1854 01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:23,160 in the chat but thank you you very much for participating in rocky mcgill 1855 01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:25,040 proxy mcgill as always 1856 01:54:25,040 --> 01:54:26,600 uh... thank you for your time 1857 01:54:26,600 --> 01:54:28,640 of evey and uh... 1858 01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:30,040 cc 1859 01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:30,920 have a great day 1860 01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:37,920 by heart 1861 01:54:39,000 --> 01:54:41,680 that was impressive 1862 01:54:41,680 --> 01:54:43,840 so the vb has departed 1863 01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:44,760 and 1864 01:54:44,760 --> 01:54:46,160 trying to 1865 01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:50,160 my thoughts together now on 1866 01:54:50,160 --> 01:54:53,880 there there are some key moments and i put him in the chat excuse me i put him 1867 01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:55,400 in the slides 1868 01:54:55,400 --> 01:54:57,760 if you're watching the vod 1869 01:54:57,760 --> 01:54:59,640 you can see 1870 01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:02,320 and i was trying to keep up 1871 01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:06,680 he's very very knowledgeable as you can see he's pulling together different 1872 01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:07,660 facets 1873 01:55:07,660 --> 01:55:10,240 of life and education 1874 01:55:10,240 --> 01:55:11,660 academia 1875 01:55:11,660 --> 01:55:13,520 into experience 1876 01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:16,640 into his understand these weaving it 1877 01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:21,520 as g is a says that we need to tapestry 1878 01:55:21,520 --> 01:55:23,440 some things that i pulled out 1879 01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:24,600 specifically 1880 01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:26,260 from his notes 1881 01:55:26,260 --> 01:55:28,120 was 1882 01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:29,620 uh... the first one 1883 01:55:29,620 --> 01:55:31,520 when he started talking about 1884 01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:33,400 fine academic knowledge 1885 01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:36,600 those who have to see it when he explained with that what he thought that 1886 01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:37,460 meant 1887 01:55:37,460 --> 01:55:39,140 and 1888 01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:41,260 but i heard him talk about was 1889 01:55:41,260 --> 01:55:44,320 being able to apply it and academic setting 1890 01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:45,440 dickly a paper 1891 01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:47,080 something that draws in 1892 01:55:47,080 --> 01:55:50,080 some of the well-known 1893 01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:51,380 academia 1894 01:55:51,380 --> 01:55:53,240 let's just use that word for now but 1895 01:55:53,240 --> 01:55:56,600 for business management concepts you know talking about 1896 01:55:56,600 --> 01:55:59,000 series a series b funding 1897 01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:02,880 or or management theories like mcgregor 1898 01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:04,600 here he acts in theory why 1899 01:56:04,600 --> 01:56:06,640 that he mentioned maslow's 1900 01:56:06,640 --> 01:56:09,040 a lot of things like that where we can 1901 01:56:09,040 --> 01:56:10,640 make it not just 1902 01:56:10,640 --> 01:56:15,360 and of a case study but offer it back to the web to web one community 1903 01:56:15,360 --> 01:56:17,360 where it became become 1904 01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:19,340 the kind of 1905 01:56:19,340 --> 01:56:22,280 boat that they used to cross over into web three 1906 01:56:22,280 --> 01:56:24,620 something that can help build bridge 1907 01:56:24,620 --> 01:56:26,560 that that was fascinating 1908 01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:28,600 that would take a lot of effort 1909 01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:31,080 not difficult but it would take a lot of effort 1910 01:56:31,080 --> 01:56:32,420 to achieve 1911 01:56:32,420 --> 01:56:36,520 and being able to because academic rigor there's a reason why 1912 01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:40,680 there's such a high bar when it comes to educational standards 1913 01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:45,120 it's gotta be peer reviewed it's gotta use well-known studies he called it 1914 01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:47,920 academic rigor 1915 01:56:47,920 --> 01:56:51,160 quite difficult 1916 01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:52,280 resource 1917 01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:53,640 those venue 1918 01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:55,200 but once you do 1919 01:56:55,200 --> 01:56:58,520 as he mentioned once you bridge that gap 1920 01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,320 can really start to 1921 01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:02,520 those who figured out 1922 01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:04,000 have a seat at the table 1923 01:57:04,000 --> 01:57:08,000 and and as they say it elsewhere business 1924 01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:09,640 if you're not at the table 1925 01:57:09,640 --> 01:57:12,840 you're on the menu 1926 01:57:12,840 --> 01:57:15,800 uh... some mounts he mentioned was when we start talking about 1927 01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:17,520 he started talking about the city council 1928 01:57:17,520 --> 01:57:20,960 how real-life regional politics started playing into that 1929 01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:23,040 where that that you mentioned the turks 1930 01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:24,840 when the turks propose something 1931 01:57:24,840 --> 01:57:25,900 the turkish 1932 01:57:25,900 --> 01:57:28,880 international council members propose something 1933 01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:31,860 chinese international council members voted down 1934 01:57:31,860 --> 01:57:34,200 and seem like it was just kind of that 1935 01:57:34,200 --> 01:57:36,720 without regard to what the content was 1936 01:57:36,720 --> 01:57:40,580 and that's not unlike what happens in the united nations 1937 01:57:40,580 --> 01:57:41,920 between countries 1938 01:57:41,920 --> 01:57:45,580 there there are long-standing rivalries blood feuds 1939 01:57:45,580 --> 01:57:49,020 i mean that many of these countries have been in existence for hundreds 1940 01:57:49,020 --> 01:57:50,320 i don't even know thousands 1941 01:57:50,320 --> 01:57:53,100 definitely hundreds of years 1942 01:57:53,100 --> 01:57:56,560 that gets carried into these formal settings 1943 01:57:56,560 --> 01:57:58,620 where you would think 1944 01:57:58,620 --> 01:57:59,920 that it wouldn't 1945 01:57:59,920 --> 01:58:02,120 but it does this is real life 1946 01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:03,700 you have a there are a lot of 1947 01:58:03,700 --> 01:58:05,720 stakeholders a lot of factors 1948 01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:07,800 i will influence your decision 1949 01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:09,620 what is something he said 1950 01:58:09,620 --> 01:58:11,280 uh... here's something else i said 1951 01:58:11,280 --> 01:58:13,600 uh... could be applied to the sandbox was 1952 01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:15,180 the quadratic 1953 01:58:15,180 --> 01:58:17,320 uh... not just a quote that the improvement 1954 01:58:17,320 --> 01:58:20,300 to the algorithmic solution that they found for quorum where 1955 01:58:20,300 --> 01:58:21,460 the square root 1956 01:58:21,460 --> 01:58:22,520 of your 1957 01:58:22,520 --> 01:58:25,040 of your tokens and nfts it 1958 01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:26,320 your voting power 1959 01:58:26,320 --> 01:58:29,700 so for those who have thousands square root would be 1960 01:58:29,700 --> 01:58:31,720 hundreds or less 1961 01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:34,520 if you own thirty six lands 1962 01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:36,480 uh... which would equal 1963 01:58:36,480 --> 01:58:39,940 thirty six times 1964 01:58:39,940 --> 01:58:41,880 forty five hundred 1965 01:58:41,880 --> 01:58:44,440 one hundred sixty two thousand voting power 1966 01:58:44,440 --> 01:58:46,900 suddenly your square root of that is going to be four hundred 1967 01:58:46,900 --> 01:58:49,520 voting power and that's much more accessible 1968 01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:52,820 for or someone to 1969 01:58:52,820 --> 01:58:54,720 equalize their own vote against 1970 01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:56,080 so like he said 1971 01:58:56,080 --> 01:58:58,880 uh... in order for 1972 01:58:58,880 --> 01:59:01,280 someone to be 1973 01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:03,880 thirty six square root of that is six 1974 01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:07,420 you just need six other 1975 01:59:07,420 --> 01:59:10,520 square root people to do it 1976 01:59:10,520 --> 01:59:12,080 much more accessible 1977 01:59:12,080 --> 01:59:14,360 versus someone who has a million 1978 01:59:14,360 --> 01:59:16,300 voting power and 1979 01:59:16,300 --> 01:59:18,400 you don't have a hope to do that 1980 01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:21,040 but even with a bunch of sixes 1981 01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:22,540 so 1982 01:59:22,540 --> 01:59:25,280 that was fascinating learn about 1983 01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:27,720 and the very last thing 1984 01:59:27,720 --> 01:59:29,080 uh... he mentioned 1985 01:59:29,080 --> 01:59:30,880 the the 1986 01:59:30,880 --> 01:59:33,180 how to maximize communication 1987 01:59:33,180 --> 01:59:34,880 uh... he mentioned a union 1988 01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:38,920 i've had some thoughts about that unions you have 1989 01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:40,520 pros and cons about them 1990 01:59:40,520 --> 01:59:42,580 sometimes a victim of their own success 1991 01:59:42,580 --> 01:59:44,520 however 1992 01:59:44,520 --> 01:59:46,800 unions at its core 1993 01:59:46,800 --> 01:59:50,900 it's just 1994 01:59:50,900 --> 01:59:53,800 power that is 1995 01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:57,120 across a wide spectrum of individuals 1996 01:59:57,120 --> 01:59:58,380 combined together 1997 01:59:58,380 --> 02:00:00,720 to equal 1998 02:00:00,720 --> 02:00:01,480 other 1999 02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:03,520 large power 2000 02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:06,320 large groups they have power inherently 2001 02:00:06,320 --> 02:00:08,120 but then you have a bunch of little 2002 02:00:08,120 --> 02:00:10,020 individuals and together 2003 02:00:10,020 --> 02:00:12,520 unionized and 2004 02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:15,060 has some parity some equality between 2005 02:00:15,060 --> 02:00:16,320 their union 2006 02:00:16,320 --> 02:00:18,060 and the larger 2007 02:00:18,060 --> 02:00:20,500 groups that are already exist 2008 02:00:20,500 --> 02:00:23,600 that in and of itself is that wrong with that 2009 02:00:23,600 --> 02:00:26,060 but as we can see kind of what's happening 2010 02:00:26,060 --> 02:00:30,680 in other dows 2011 02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,540 how do we 2012 02:00:32,540 --> 02:00:37,460 how do we combat michelle's iron law of oligarchy maybe some sort of union 2013 02:00:37,460 --> 02:00:40,140 is is in 2014 02:00:40,140 --> 02:00:41,880 is in play here 2015 02:00:41,880 --> 02:00:43,880 so 2016 02:00:43,880 --> 02:00:47,340 i think a governance working group can get us there 2017 02:00:47,340 --> 02:00:51,320 and not so much a union but as as a way to have a voice 2018 02:00:51,320 --> 02:00:53,500 to start rebuilding trust 2019 02:00:53,500 --> 02:00:57,040 so really fascinating discussion the v 2020 02:00:57,040 --> 02:00:58,100 uh... i'd 2021 02:00:58,100 --> 02:01:01,300 i didn't really know him before all this i didn't know him at all really 2022 02:01:01,300 --> 02:01:03,180 is vitamin he came on 2023 02:01:03,180 --> 02:01:06,000 and then had a podcast and now 2024 02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:08,580 so i have to connect with him at a later time 2025 02:01:08,580 --> 02:01:11,060 drive done process all this 2026 02:01:11,060 --> 02:01:13,120 but really fascinating discussion 2027 02:01:13,120 --> 02:01:15,220 loved it and 2028 02:01:15,220 --> 02:01:17,160 uh... future episodes 2029 02:01:17,160 --> 02:01:18,360 so 2030 02:01:18,360 --> 02:01:21,620 we already did the interview with crypto dip low 2031 02:01:21,620 --> 02:01:25,020 and we also did the 2032 02:01:25,020 --> 02:01:27,140 that's gonna release after this 2033 02:01:27,140 --> 02:01:29,900 is the rules of the down money with joseph 2034 02:01:29,900 --> 02:01:33,460 so i'm gonna release this podcast here with the v v 2035 02:01:33,460 --> 02:01:34,840 there tomorrow 2036 02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:39,340 and then rules with joseph dow running rules joseph will release in some 2037 02:01:39,340 --> 02:01:41,540 next few days 2038 02:01:41,540 --> 02:01:44,020 the reaction that did the sandbox tutorial 2039 02:01:44,020 --> 02:01:47,300 is probably sometime next week 2040 02:01:47,300 --> 02:01:49,500 i have a number of other 2041 02:01:49,500 --> 02:01:52,060 other episodes that are upcoming 2042 02:01:52,060 --> 02:01:54,260 see if i can get my tales 2043 02:01:54,260 --> 02:01:58,380 who's an advisory board member i'm still trying to get in touch with staff trial 2044 02:01:58,380 --> 02:01:59,620 another 2045 02:01:59,620 --> 02:02:04,080 uh... that the next one is likely going to be a queen data with derek smart 2046 02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:06,580 the deck the smart 2047 02:02:06,580 --> 02:02:08,400 and then if i can't get 2048 02:02:08,400 --> 02:02:09,720 one with big bull 2049 02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:12,860 on the government's working group 2050 02:02:12,860 --> 02:02:16,520 and i have some other ones and i'm going to do more 2051 02:02:16,520 --> 02:02:19,620 business oriented stuff 2052 02:02:19,620 --> 02:02:22,200 that i think excited for like the business 2053 02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:25,980 of publishing experiences in selling assets on market place 2054 02:02:25,980 --> 02:02:28,100 sort of thing 2055 02:02:28,100 --> 02:02:33,740 i think you offer your time and i'll end it there 2056 02:02:33,740 --> 02:02:36,440 his main message 2057 02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:41,420 i feel that i received from him 2058 02:02:41,420 --> 02:02:43,100 we have to find a way 2059 02:02:43,100 --> 02:02:46,180 to build bridges with web one web two in a way 2060 02:02:46,180 --> 02:02:48,300 that will augment 2061 02:02:48,300 --> 02:02:53,900 and strengthen and build unity 2062 02:02:53,900 --> 02:03:16,460 thank you all for your time