Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are recording this just days before we
return to the Square Mile for the third annual
Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit on the
8th of April. We're very fortunate to be back
at the London Stock Exchange. And of course...
We're living in tumultuous times. The world has
never been so unsettled. There's another war
in the Middle East. The Strait of Hormuz is closed.
Oil prices are going through the roof. People
are concerned about what the future holds across
the world. Here in the UK and Europe, gas prices
are up. This will be affecting the food supply.
And this even affects Canada and the US. Three
oceans are not enough to protect Canada from
the turmoil in the world. So here we are, walking
into the city for the discussion of the Indigenous
people of Canada and the opportunities they bring.
Canada is a stable country in a very unstable
world. Canada needs to be on your radar. If you
have any desire to invest in energy, infrastructure,
mining or defense -related issues. Canada has
regained its standing in the world under Prime
Minister Carney. But the key to success in Canada
today is working with the Indigenous peoples.
And what you will have an opportunity to learn
about at the summit is who are the movers and
shakers amongst the Indigenous people. What are
the companies that are succeeding? Who are the
partners to consider working with? What are the
lessons learned in the past about how to make
things happen quickly? So come join Rob and I
and over 170 other senior leaders to discuss
how to succeed in Canada, what are the opportunities,
and how to turn those opportunities into fruition
much quicker than ever before. Morning, Rob.
How are you today? There you go, Mark. Really
good, thanks. I'm making my way east from Vancouver,
looking forward to the summit. Yes, it's just
under a week away. Really exciting coming up.
So you're now based out in Vancouver, so you're
making your way east. Have you crossed the pond
yet, or you're still in? Not yet. I've stopped
almost halfway. I'm in Toronto today. And I'll
spend the week here and then get to London on
the weekend. Great. And how's Toronto these days?
Toronto's good. Don't mention the Leafs. I didn't.
Otherwise, things are great. Well, let's go Edmonton
or Montreal. Somebody. Right. Anyway, North America,
as our southern neighbor likes to refer to, is
separated by these two great oceans and isn't
affected by what's going on in the world, which
is wrong. So why don't we first start a little
bit about before we get into what's going on
with the summit? Why don't we just talk about
the world we're in at the moment? Because it's
a huge mess and it's getting worse every day.
Yeah. Headlines changing. By the hour in oil,
what is it this morning, $112 a barrel up from
just $65 just a couple of weeks ago. And I'm
not sure how constrained exports are through
the Strait of Hormuz, but it's a very delicate
situation having impacts here and, of course,
on the ground in the Middle East. I can't imagine
what. Some of these people are having to live
with. Terrible. I think actually, unless you
have an Iranian pass through the Straits at the
moment, it's effectively closed. And just this
morning, we're recording this a couple of days
before it's going out. There was a Kuwait oil
tanker off of the UAE that was struck. And it
is, you know, it's a terrible situation. And
as you said. Forget about the price of oil, which
of course impacts everybody through the food
chain. It's the lives. And the whole region is
once again destabilized. And nobody knows what
tomorrow will bring. And that has its own cost.
So I guess this is the largest supply disruption
the IEA has ever recorded. European natural gas
prices have surged more than 70 % in March. And
the benchmark Used over here, the TTF is trading
around 54 euros per megawatt hour, with some
forecasters saying it's going to reach 100. So
this affects everybody, even Canada and the U
.S. The U .S. is one of the largest exporters
of oil in the world, as is Canada, and everything's
set to the world price. Yeah, and our relations
seem as strained as ever with the U .S. It's
a very, very tricky time for Canada. Tariffs
have impacted Canada. We're fortunate that we
do have a free trade agreement that still is
valid and allows most of our exports to the U
.S. to go there tariff -free, but there's still
been an impact. And, of course, we've got the
renegotiation of the U .S. MCA. the north american
free trade agreement uh coming up with a deadline
in just a couple of months july 1st i think is
the the deadline for renewal and uh it's not
clear how or whether negotiations are are progressing
yes and if it's renewed then there'll be a renegotiation
no matter what i understand they've already started
working with the mexicans but i think they're
trying to split the opposition and put pressure
on Canada. And that is working. But of course,
what continues to be needed around the world
is real assets, infrastructure, contracted long
duration cash flows in stable jurisdictions,
right? Majority of global institutional investors
recently surveyed by McKinsey plan to increase
infrastructure allocations over the next three
years. And that doesn't even talk about the disaster,
about how do you repair everything that's been
destroyed. But even with the tariffs being struck
down by the Supreme Court in February, as you
mentioned, 50 % tariffs on Canadian steel and
aluminum remain, right? And the Bank of Canada's
own governor, we've heard from the Canadian prime
minister many times, but the Bank of Canada governor
has come out and even said the era of rules -based
open trade with the United States is over. And
you mentioned Canada is beginning to feel that
pain. It's affecting... people it has been since
they were imposed. And unfortunately, that pain's
going to continue for a while longer because
you just don't turn on new markets overnight,
right? The dollar's down around 72 or 73 cents
American. GDP has been cut to 1 .1%. Unemployment's
edged up 6 .7. Not a... Good situation. No, not
a pretty picture at all. So what's the good news
in all of this? Well, I guess the good news is
that half of Canadian small businesses still
think of the US as a reliable partner. The bad
news is the other half don't. But what is the
good news is that Canada is actively repositioning.
Prime Minister Carney has been out there. He's
made 26 foreign trips in his first year. Wow,
that's a trip every other week. Explicitly targeting
European and Commonwealth capital as well as
in Asia. Canada's been fortunate. We've joined
the EU Safe Defence Program, the first non -European
country to do so. Even the UK isn't part of SAFE
yet. So that's really positive. And certainly
with all the conversations going on, European
institutional investors have Canada on their
radar. They're looking, how do we diversify?
away from US exposure. So they now have an additional
powerful reason to look at Canada. Yeah, I think
it's a similar story. The US is a big, powerful
economy. It's going to remain so for a long time.
It will always be an important and probably the
most important trading partner for Canada and
for other parts of the world. But there's a new
appreciation of diversification and the need
to... to have other trading partners. And so,
as you said, Canada has been out there. Prime
Minister, business people, his first foreign
trip as Prime Minister, I think he was only in
the job a few days and he was off to Europe.
And he has really led the charge. It's become
a priority to double within a few years the trade
Canada does outside of North America. Yes. By
eliminating barriers within Canada too, that
will not be another significant gain for GDP
and growth in Canada. Canada remains AAA rated,
lowest net debt to GDP in the G7, rule of law,
and a common law framework. So it is the most
natural term to many people in the English -speaking
world. And although the U .S. will continue to
be Everybody's thinking twice with the current
administration. The current administration is
time bound. And of course, we are not going back
to what it was before. But if there's a degree
of stability and recognition of interest, hopefully
the future has opportunities to benefit from
a more stable relationship. Even if the relationships
changed, at least it won't change every day.
Right. So that's the backdrop of where we're
coming into. Yep. But I think also there's a
new appreciation of the vulnerability of supply
chains and the need to have reliable partners.
And that's something you hear Canada talk about,
the need to have reliable trading partners. And
if it's one thing Canadians are known for, it's
reliability and honesty. and fair dealing and
put that together with all of the resources natural
resources that we have in this country and the
educated workforce and the creative creativity
the business people and the emerging indigenous
economy and population that's playing a more
and more important role in all of it uh it adds
up to yeah i think that's what that's where the
opportunities are Absolutely. And one thing you
don't hear anymore is anybody saying, oh, what's
the difference between Canadians and Americans
or between Canada and the US? You know, that
is clear. And with, as you've mentioned, with
the role of the Indigenous people changed and
now they're playing their foundation role in
the country, that's a huge added benefit for
Canada. And actually the relationship with the
Indigenous people now that... It's recognized
in the Constitution and UNDRIP. That rule of
law has been demonstrated time and time again.
So let's talk about the summit that's taking
place on the 8th of April at the London Stock
Exchange in the heart of Square Mall in the shadow
of St. Paul's. And that choice of venue is not
ceremonial. You know, we have chosen it. And
you and I and Siwan talk a lot about it. you
know, where are we going to have the summit?
And we're back for the second year in a row at
the London Stock Exchange. We've always been
in the city since we started, but it talks about
the type of conversations that we're setting
out to have at the summit. Yeah, absolutely.
Really excited, Mark. This is our third annual
summit. Couldn't come at a more important time
for the reasons that we've discussed. And we'll
be back right at Centre Ice in the heart of the
city, the heart of the financial district, one
of the great financial centres of the world.
And investors and potential corporate partners
in the UK and Europe, they are looking at Canada
again differently. And so it's now up to us to
explain what has changed about Canada because
there are perceptions, some negative perceptions,
although we're talking about reliability and
honesty. I think there's also a perception that
it's difficult to do business in Canada. It's
difficult to get big projects done. And there's
still a bit of skepticism, despite the encouraging
words from government, about whether we can really.
get big projects done. And there's also I think
still a perception in Europe that Indigenous
people are against all development. And so we've
got to answer both of those questions. What's
changed about Canada? Has it really changed?
And are Indigenous people supportive of that
change? And are they part of that story? And
so those are the messages we're going to bring
loud and clear. We've got a fantastic gathering
of Indigenous, non -Indigenous leaders and some
great names, some big companies, some big investors,
and we're going to have some great conversations.
Yes, so the day runs on the 8th of April from
8 a .m. to 6 p .m. We're having a small drinks
reception as is traditional to follow. And we've
got four investment themes running across two
different rooms, auditoriums almost, at the London
Stock Exchange. Mining, energy, infrastructure,
and the circumpolar frontier, which is Canada's
north and the Arctic. The sessions this year
are moderated by practitioners and journalists.
They're not facilitators. And the panel discussions,
as you mentioned, they are meant to be substantive
and the questioning will be rigorous. It's not
a conference where anybody reads from slides.
In fact, there are no slides. Sometimes we'll
show a map so everybody knows where some of these
locations are. And the agenda is public. It's
been up on the website for the past number of
weeks. And we've got some episode notes set up
on there. And registration is by invitation.
Everybody is qualified to make sure that they
fit in the room to have those serious C -level
conversation. So why don't we talk about who
we have in the room? We've got senior leaders.
And I think this is something that's very unique.
And you've reinforced, Rob. over the years. And
we are very fortunate because we have the decision
makers in the room, certainly coming from Canada.
And then we have global energy majors, critical
minerals companies, infrastructure, engineering
firms, capital market institutions, institutional
investors who are managing significant infrastructure
allocations. They're not policy observers. This
is not a theoretical discussion. These are people
with mandates. who look at deal flow all the
time, and they have decisions to make. And we've
been very pleased, more registering every day,
every hour. Last year, we had close 140 attend,
and it was the largest gathering of Indigenous
people from North America in modern history.
certainly probably back three or four hundred
years. And this year we already have close to
170 people registered and still a few more days
to go. So we're very pleased with the support
we're receiving from everybody and the interest
in the summit because we have put this together
so the Indigenous people have an opportunity
to tell their story directly. Again, coming back
to being in this square mile, we're talking about
those big issues. We're talking about energy
security, infrastructure investment, critical
minerals, Canada's three large deposits across
the country, and we have representation at the
summit from each, and the search for stable jurisdictions
outside the US. Canada's reputation has only
grown since the administration has changed in
the States, and they've seen a different side
of Canada. that most Canadians knew of, but it
hadn't really been projected onto the world scene
as it has been under Prime Minister Mark Carney
since he got elected. And the combination of
those groups in the room at this particular moment
is why we think this is probably the most consequential
summit yet. We've been fortunate the way the
world's moved and our summit has happened. The
first year was a lot about education. putting
a stake in the ground about what we're trying
to achieve. And last year was the beginning of
the conversation. These conversations are much
deeper and richer this coming summit. Yeah, we
sort of up the game every year, don't we, Mark?
It's a lot of hard work over really 12 months.
You and Siwan and the rest of the team work so
hard throughout the year talking to... potential
speakers and sponsors and trying to put a program
together and we really do have a great representation
from coast to coast to coast in Canada. Some
of the biggest projects that we've all heard
about and many of them designated major projects
or projects of national interest. And all of
those folks involved in those projects are going
to be in London talking about them and trying
to encourage investors and partners from the
UK and Europe. Yes. And coming back to when Prime
Minister Carney's been around to 26 countries
in his first year in office, he's out there telling
the story. And he's done this. He's been a buyer.
He's been on both sides of these deals before.
So you can bet when he's having those conversations,
he's getting asked some very tough questions.
As you mentioned, historically in the past 10,
20 years, Canada's had a reputation as a place
that's difficult to get things done. And there's
been a lot of uncertainty about how do you get
things done? And if I do this, does it work?
And there's this perception. that it maybe is
still difficult and hasn't changed, but it's
changed quite a bit. And the reason the summit
is so important is there's Indigenous leaders
across industry, across services, and individuals
such as like yourself, because the Indigenous
people in Canada are now in positions of power,
making some of these critical decisions, not
only for their own Indigenous communities, but
for the country as a whole. And you bring a different
perspective. The Indigenous people bring a different
perspective to Canada and what the future can
be by working together, by respecting communities'
rights. And because of that and tying into that
deep knowledge of the Indigenous people, projects
will get built faster. There'll be less risk.
Because you're dealing with people who actually
know and are not concerned, oh, this is a five
-year thing, I'll be gone somewhere else. It's
their home. And worldwide, the Indigenous people
have a different perspective on the environment
and the world that they live in. So when things
get done in Canada, they're built to last now,
which is fantastic. Let's talk about some of
those conversations, Rob. Let's talk about the
first one, because this is what the Prime Minister...
Carnie has been out there talking about it. Many
people are interested in it. Is Canada the energy
superpower Europe needs? And this is the section
that really connects directly to the macro context
of what's going on at the moment. Europe is in
an energy security crisis. They have been since
the war in Ukraine started a number of years
ago. Canada has the supply, but every major Canadian
energy project that is advancing has an Indigenous
equity partnership behind it. Everyone that doesn't
is stalled. And I think there's 20 that's been
approved and there's only three moving ahead.
But those three are because they've been developed
with the Indigenous people and their communities.
And those ones are moving ahead. So it's not
anecdotal. If you want to proceed, you're going
to need to work with the Indigenous peoples.
And that's how to get things done. Yeah, the
case law is pretty clear now. Indigenous people
need to have a meaningful involvement. The statutes
and laws are clear. The new law in Canada around
major projects requires Indigenous involvement.
So it's just you don't get anywhere without involving
the local Indigenous community in a meaningful
way anymore. Right. And the LNG has now started
to flow from the West Coast over to Asia. I think
the first shipments arrived in the past few weeks
or months, and that couldn't have come at a better
time. And now they're looking at, okay, how do
we get it going in the other direction? A few
years ago, the German government came and asked
Canada, gee, we want to buy LNG from you. And
Canada at the time wasn't receptive to that,
so the Germans went to buy from Qatar. Unfortunately,
that's not a reliable supply at the moment. And
Canadians have even mentioned, well, America,
if you really want some oil, you can build the
Keystone Pipeline, which actually got stopped
in the U .S. And the pipes are sitting there
on the ground. So if you have the support of
the people, the Indigenous people, to get things
done, there's all kinds of projects that are
ready to go. That's right. You mentioned we're
already shipping LNG from the West Coast. That's
the LNG Canada project. That's Shell's big project.
And they're looking at expansion possibly later
this year. And then the Niska Nation is a lead
proponent for the Silissums LNG project, which
is a big $10 billion project, hoping to get a
final investment decision. Right, and that's
one of our key conversations, the Nylissim's
LNG. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Yeah, NISCA will be represented on that panel,
and they'll tell us about the latest status of
that project. But they are a 50 -50 partner with
some American. Oil and gas companies and Blackstone
are involved in that. Total Energy is involved
in that project, but also another West Coast
LNG project. That will be important. And it's
a different project than Cedar LNG, who was at
our summit last year, because in this case, they
own the land and they're working with majors
to how do we build this out? So that'll be an
interesting. Another big theme that we're talking
about is why institutional capital is repricing
Canadian projects. There's over $45 billion in
Indigenous partner projects advancing towards
construction at the moment. And three years ago,
the financing architecture to make that happen
really didn't exist. But we now have the Canadian
Indigenous Loan Guarantee Corporation, the First
Nations Financial Authority to Venture Program.
Private debt funds purpose -built for the sector
are now operational. Deals are happening, the
money's coming in. Yeah, when I talk about what
has changed in Canada and why should investors
look again, geopolitics are forcing investors
and partners to look again at Canada. But when
they ask what has changed in the last 10 years
or so, some of these financial... support for
Indigenous people to get involved and take meaningful
equity stakes in project. All of that is brand
new. The federal loan guarantee program, which
is a $10 billion program, has really only been
up and running for about 12 months. And they've
advanced to, provided two big guarantees for
projects, and they've got something like 30 others
in their pipeline now. program didn't exist uh
even two years ago wow so that's part of the
change that's happening and this session is actually
moderated by the head of infrastructure debt
at a major uk institutional asset manager so
we have it's going to be really interesting conversations
about how to move things ahead and how to succeed
and the opportunities in front of people and
we've talked about One area we've also can talk
about the Kitsaki model, 180 million in revenue,
44 years in the making. Maybe they would say,
well, it's been a thousand years in the making.
We're finally getting our opportunity to pull
it together. What do you think, Rob? Can you
talk a little bit about that? Yeah, a very, very
impressive group. And Chief Tammy Cook -Searson.
who is the chief at Lac La Ronge Indian Band,
which is Saskatchewan, middle of the country,
and just this week re -elected once again. She's
30 -plus years, I think, as chief. She'll be
with us, as well as the CEO of Kitsaki, which
is their wholly -owned development corporation,
Ron Higgin. And so they'll be with us talking
about some of the things they're involved in
from mining to transportation, engineering, forestry.
They've got so much on the go. It's a really,
really impressive story. Wow. And that session
is actually going to be moderated by the president
of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry.
So, again. We're going to have some very interesting
conversations. I guess one of the other really
exciting areas this year, and when we set out
to plan the summit, we have to take our best
guess about what's going to be the interesting
conversations. And we're going to talk about
the Arctic Security Corridor and the circumpolar
frontier. And, you know, Canada's learning about
the Arctic and the North because the majority
of Canadians live along. the southern border
and there's there's many there's a number of
canadians who refer to southerners and they're
not talking southern us they're talking southern
the country who haven't been north of uh north
of their province or even in their province you
know most people live in the southern areas and
we're talking about nunavut we're talking about
northern quebec we're of course talking about
northern ontario manitoba saskatchewan alberta
but of course Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
So those are really interesting discussions.
And we've had some great podcasts recently. And
one of the comments that kind of hit home is
when Greenlanders come over to visit Canada.
And of course they go to their Arctic with their
shared Indigenous people. You know, they look
and say, gee, you guys are 50 years behind where
we are. And there's been all this discussion
about Greenland and it's not really developed.
And here they're coming over and saying, Jeepers,
you guys haven't even started. So there's some
interesting projects we're talking about in that
session. Yeah, again, really good representation
across the North and some of the biggest projects
that are proposed, including the... Arctic Economic
and Security Corridor and the Grays Bay Road
and Port project, which is all linked across
the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. A road
connecting to the Arctic and a port. Major, major
infrastructure project. And we'll be talking
about that and have the CEOs who are involved
in that all along the way. And in the Yukon,
they've got mining and telecom projects. They've
got transmission major projects that they'll
be talking about. All very exciting. Yes, and
with Yukon, it's gone through a period where
they couldn't figure out how to move ahead. And
now there's that stability. my understanding
from the conversations we've had prior to the
summit a direction about how do we how do we
move things uh ahead in terms of development
and there is no permanent roads in nunavut there
are ice roads so there's a huge need as all the
great powers start to look at at the arctic and
the canada uk defense and resilience partnership
was announced by Prime Minister Carney and Prime
Minister Starmer. So the Circumpolar Frontier
is no longer just a Canadian story. It's of interest
to our allies. And as our allies have talked
about the need to have a presence in Greenland,
they're also looking for Canada to lead and support
with them having a strong presence in the Arctic.
But these sessions are only part of what makes
this day valuable. So why don't we talk about...
Some of the practitioners that are in the room.
Yeah, from institutional capital, we've got UK
institutional asset managers, head of infrastructure
debt, chief responsible investment officer at
a big UK institutional pension board, delivering
a keynote. We've got the VP of global credit
ratings agency, moderating, and the list goes
on. We've got Canadian pension funds represented.
It's a strong lineup. So we have institutional
capital, capital markets. We, of course, have
the big Canadian banks with us. We have the CEO
of the Toronto Stock Exchange is joining us.
We're very pleased to have him with us. And then
we've got financial media's participation this
year. We have economists, international economics
correspondents moderating the Ring of Fire panel.
We've got... The Financial Times, FT Intelligence,
Global Market Editors, Managing Panel. We've
got a few other journalists arriving as well.
And they will ask the hard questions. And their
coverage will reach the UK and European institutional
audience that are not yet in the building. And
of course, from the Indigenous leadership side,
we are very fortunate once again to have their
support. And we have the chiefs, presidents,
CEOs who are making a difference. in Canada,
not only for their communities, but Canada as
a whole, who are providing leadership. And I
think the other exciting thing is we've talked
about this a number of times. Some of the most
aggressive entrepreneurs in Canada are the Indigenous
leaders and their companies. In fact, I think
most people know that Canada is looking at making
a submarine purchase. They're talking to the
Germans and South Koreans. And the Germans just
signed an NDA. And we have them in the room,
the Indigenous people who've signed that NDA,
which is really, really something. And this is
what we always try and provide at the summit,
access to the people who are shaping and making
the decisions about the projects that will make
a difference. So who should be in the room, Rob?
And what does someone get from being there that
they can't get from reading just the agenda or
having a single conversation somewhere? Well,
we started with the target audience are really
UK and European investors and then corporations
that are considering partnering or doing anything.
And whether it's infrastructure, mining, energy
in those areas, if you're considering working
in that space in Canada, you are going to be
working with Indigenous people. the decision
makers across the country, up and down as well.
And so that's the target audience, the UK investors
and corporates. But we also have a big contingent
from Canada coming, I think, because the speakers
and panelists and others there, it's a unique,
unique gathering. And so we've got great representation
from Canada too. not just at the speaker level,
but many attendees making the trip over because
they want to be part of the conversation. Yes,
and about half the room is from Canada and half
the room is from the UK and beyond. And I guess
every year after the summit, and this is our
third year, we get the similar version of the
message from the delegates. They came expecting
a conference, but they left with relationships
that they couldn't have built any other way.
So that's very powerful for us because we're
still, this is an ongoing. initiative from us.
We have the summit every year. We'll be scheduling
the next one for 2027 in April as well. And the
most important thing is if you're at the summit,
this is where these conversations begin. And
this is not... People sit in the audience and
just listen the whole day. You're engaging. You're
having opportunities to network and talk to decision
makers. So really exciting, Rob. I think you're
coming over here early next week. It's just after
Easter. It is Passover for some of our individuals
who wanted to be involved. But it's going to
be very exciting April. beginning of April for
everyone who's at the summit and ties in with
what the world's looking for, which is stable
jurisdictions, resource rich, with commercial
opportunities available. And an Indigenous leadership
that wants to get to know you better. So I can't
wait. Looking forward to being in London. I'll
see you. See you shortly. Yes, it will be great
to have you here once again. So thanks, Rob.
Enjoy your trip across the rest of the country.
I assume you're flying across the country and
not taking the train, right? Good assumption,
yeah. Look forward to having you over here again,
Rob. It'll be great. So we'll see you in the
city next week. Mark your calendars for the upcoming
2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April.
Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review
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listening to Drumbeats. Until next time.