WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.069 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:05.730 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.730 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.089 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.830 --> 00:00:15.169 I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Rob Brant and 00:00:15.169 --> 00:00:18.329 I are back with Anne -Raphael Oudwan, CEO of 00:00:18.329 --> 00:00:21.769 Newkick Corporation, the 100 % Inuit -owned developer 00:00:21.769 --> 00:00:25.370 behind the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link. In part one, 00:00:25.850 --> 00:00:27.850 We heard how Nunavik came to be one of the most 00:00:27.850 --> 00:00:30.010 isolated jurisdictions in the developing world, 00:00:30.210 --> 00:00:33.789 why 138 million liters of foreign diesel flow 00:00:33.789 --> 00:00:36.329 into the territory every year, and how Nukic 00:00:36.329 --> 00:00:38.770 became the first arctic electricity developer 00:00:38.770 --> 00:00:41.789 in North America to be certified by the mid -continent 00:00:41.789 --> 00:00:45.750 independent system operator, MISO. In the second 00:00:45.750 --> 00:00:49.130 part, we get into the project itself, and Rafael 00:00:49.130 --> 00:00:52.570 walks us through the full route. 1 ,200 kilometers 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:55.549 of dual -use transmission and fiber optic, running 00:00:55.549 --> 00:00:57.630 north from Churchill and Manitoba to connect 00:00:57.630 --> 00:01:00.009 five of the Kivalec's seven communities to the 00:01:00.009 --> 00:01:03.049 continental grid for the first time. She explains 00:01:03.049 --> 00:01:07.409 what changed in April 2025. Manitoba elected 00:01:07.409 --> 00:01:10.170 the first Indigenous Premier across the country, 00:01:10.290 --> 00:01:12.909 and subsequently Manitoba and Nunavut signed 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:16.069 a historic joint declaration, and 50 megawatts 00:01:16.069 --> 00:01:18.269 of hydropower were committed specifically to 00:01:18.269 --> 00:01:22.370 this project. That moment, turned a concept into 00:01:22.370 --> 00:01:25.510 commercially viable undertaking. We then move 00:01:25.510 --> 00:01:27.790 into the financing architecture that hopefully 00:01:27.790 --> 00:01:30.629 will provide the foundation for the business. 00:01:30.930 --> 00:01:33.829 The role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank, the 00:01:33.829 --> 00:01:36.469 role of Agnico Eagle Mines as the anchor customers 00:01:36.469 --> 00:01:39.310 whose energy contracts can provide the bankable 00:01:39.310 --> 00:01:42.430 revenue base, and why federal commitment remains 00:01:42.430 --> 00:01:45.829 the one piece necessary to unlock the entire 00:01:45.829 --> 00:01:49.480 capital stack. We also discussed the hydropower 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:51.359 and wind generation potential that transmission 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.420 infrastructure would unlock. And also speak about 00:01:54.420 --> 00:01:56.719 Anne Raphael's role on the Commission for Environmental 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.760 Cooperation, a trilateral body spanning Canada, 00:02:00.819 --> 00:02:03.780 the United States, and Mexico. If you haven't 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:05.519 listened to part one yet, we encourage you to 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:07.519 start there. But if you're coming straight to 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:09.939 the project numbers, this is where it's all at. 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:14.000 Anne Raphael, talk. then about status of the 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.939 project and first of all we're talking about 00:02:15.939 --> 00:02:21.000 the Kivlik hydro fiber corridor project and where 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.180 exactly from where to where what points are we 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:27.379 talking about and what's the status of the project 00:02:27.379 --> 00:02:30.759 today Yeah, thank you for the question. So the 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:34.259 Kivalik Hydrofiber Link is a 1 ,200 -kilometer 00:02:34.259 --> 00:02:38.379 dual -use, multipurpose transmission asset that 00:02:38.379 --> 00:02:41.419 would be paired with fiber optic. It would connect 00:02:41.419 --> 00:02:44.939 near Churchill in northern Manitoba, cross the 00:02:44.939 --> 00:02:47.800 Nunavut -Manitoba border, essentially as a straight 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.860 -shooting arrow pointing north, and then serve 00:02:50.860 --> 00:02:53.219 almost the entirety of the Kivalik region, with 00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:56.080 five out of seven hamlets being connected to 00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:00.550 the continental grid. and the ranking inlet Meliadin 00:03:00.550 --> 00:03:03.030 Mine, which is owned by Agnico Eagle Mines, which 00:03:03.030 --> 00:03:07.490 is the largest Canadian gold miner at this time, 00:03:07.530 --> 00:03:09.449 and I think the second largest gold miner in 00:03:09.449 --> 00:03:12.810 the world, and serve those loads, residential, 00:03:13.069 --> 00:03:15.389 government, businesses, and industrial loads, 00:03:15.530 --> 00:03:17.990 and obviously bring fiber optic into those regions. 00:03:19.050 --> 00:03:22.530 Right now, as I said, but I'll repeat it, everything 00:03:22.530 --> 00:03:25.189 functions on diesel. It's not like you have diesel 00:03:25.189 --> 00:03:27.610 and some wind or diesel and some... geothermal 00:03:27.610 --> 00:03:30.770 or diesel and some natural gas, everything is 00:03:30.770 --> 00:03:34.050 100 % on diesel. There's no other base load, 00:03:34.169 --> 00:03:37.509 which is the stable, you know, best type of electricity 00:03:37.509 --> 00:03:41.449 you need to keep your system stable, which is 00:03:41.449 --> 00:03:43.770 a good thing to have in a region as cold as the 00:03:43.770 --> 00:03:47.430 Arctic. There's no optionality. So it would be 00:03:47.430 --> 00:03:51.409 life changing for a multitude of reasons. What's 00:03:51.409 --> 00:03:54.169 Manitoba's position? Have they got excess power 00:03:54.169 --> 00:03:58.469 that they're looking to sell? Yeah, so it's interesting. 00:03:58.629 --> 00:04:01.990 I'll go a few years back. When I started on the 00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:05.789 project in 2022, it was very hard to engage with 00:04:05.789 --> 00:04:08.449 the province of Manitoba. And that was one of 00:04:08.449 --> 00:04:12.610 the key reasons at the time why the federal government 00:04:12.610 --> 00:04:15.590 was not fully at the table in the Kivalik hydrofiber 00:04:15.590 --> 00:04:21.680 link. Last year, in April 2025, something historic 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:24.500 happened because Premier Canoe, the Premier of 00:04:24.500 --> 00:04:27.959 Manitoba, and the former Premier of Nunavut... 00:04:28.250 --> 00:04:32.850 Premier PJ Akyagak, got together and signed a 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:35.790 joint declaration to create a strategic energy 00:04:35.790 --> 00:04:39.410 and economic corridor between Manitoba and Nunavut. 00:04:39.430 --> 00:04:43.269 And by doing so, Premier Canoe repatriated expiring 00:04:43.269 --> 00:04:47.069 hydro export contracts to the U .S. and carved 00:04:47.069 --> 00:04:51.410 out 50 megawatts. of that repatriation and dedicated 00:04:51.410 --> 00:04:54.930 it towards the cuvalic hydrofiber link, not just 00:04:54.930 --> 00:04:57.829 to Nunavut, but very specifically to the cuvalic 00:04:57.829 --> 00:05:02.480 hydrofiber link. That completely changed the 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.060 law and order for the project, because up until 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:09.000 then, we were trying to get the parties at the 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.199 table. But since April 2025, and that's the reason 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:15.379 we are almost done the development phase and 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:17.779 getting into engineering and procurement, that's 00:05:17.779 --> 00:05:20.420 the reason why we got certified by MISO. We were 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:22.560 able to file our transmission service request 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:25.199 with Mayotoba Hydro, you know, have commercial 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.480 agreements in place with Kudlik Energy Corporation, 00:05:27.899 --> 00:05:31.050 which is the territorial utility. That's the 00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:33.269 reason why all of those commercial milestones 00:05:33.269 --> 00:05:36.189 and technical milestones were completed was because 00:05:36.189 --> 00:05:39.790 Manitoba committed the power to the project. 00:05:39.970 --> 00:05:42.910 Up until then, we had a concept, we had an idea, 00:05:43.069 --> 00:05:45.490 but we didn't have a product that would flow 00:05:45.490 --> 00:05:48.370 through the transmission line. That was a complete... 00:05:48.620 --> 00:05:51.860 shift in the paradigm of developing the project 00:05:51.860 --> 00:05:55.800 whereby now we have partners and we're just trying 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:57.319 to crack the code on how we're going to make 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.339 it happen with all the caveats that I mentioned 00:06:00.339 --> 00:06:02.240 earlier with the federal government and trying 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:07.620 to find a winning recipe. Manitoba Hydro does 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:10.879 not have surplus electricity at this time. However, 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:14.860 we are planning to put shovel in the ground in 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:19.680 2028 and commission by 2032. That is a bit of 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.620 an alignment of the stars because Manitoba Hydro 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:25.819 is putting out call for proposals as we speak, 00:06:25.939 --> 00:06:28.680 and some of them have been awarded already, to 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:33.100 build new wind and also to build new peak natural 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:37.879 gas. And so that is what they're taking all the 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:40.279 right steps to reinforce their system, which 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.459 is already more than 80 % hydropower, so 80 % 00:06:43.459 --> 00:06:46.360 renewable, and continue to be a major player 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:50.399 in the heart of the prairies, serving potentially 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.839 Nunavut, hopefully soon, and then being interconnected 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:57.019 to all those states just south of Manitoba. not 00:06:57.019 --> 00:07:00.899 worried about supplying power. The grid is built 00:07:00.899 --> 00:07:04.000 and generation is built over long periods of 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.120 time. What we need to do is have the integrated 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:11.120 resource planning mindset that actually unlocks 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.980 that foresight and allows you to be good planners 00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:19.240 of your own resources. Wow, what a story. And 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:22.060 Indigenous leadership, when we talk about the 00:07:22.060 --> 00:07:26.589 Premier of Manitoba, right away, gets it right 00:07:26.589 --> 00:07:28.790 there's still a lot to be done but what a game 00:07:28.790 --> 00:07:33.790 changer yes uh in terms of attitudes and you 00:07:33.790 --> 00:07:38.089 know it just shows it's not enough for people 00:07:38.089 --> 00:07:39.990 to think oh i'm going to do something good and 00:07:39.990 --> 00:07:43.629 help out right it's how do you provide that empowerment 00:07:43.629 --> 00:07:45.750 to the indigenous peoples across the country 00:07:45.750 --> 00:07:48.889 to get things done and that's you know who you 00:07:48.889 --> 00:07:52.329 represent and is is driving this forward in terms 00:07:52.329 --> 00:07:56.899 of The Inuit and Nunavut, this whole thing starts 00:07:56.899 --> 00:08:00.899 to build momentum, but I'm sure it is still frustrating. 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:06.480 You mentioned earlier about, you know, Agnico 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:09.800 Eagle, mine. Can you talk about it a little bit 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.819 about their role and what they see and their 00:08:13.819 --> 00:08:16.399 contribution? Of course, you don't represent 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:19.300 them, but from your perspective, what that brings 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:22.399 to the table, having them so nearby. Yeah, so 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.800 Agnico Eagle Mines, you know, they've been in 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.379 the region, so in the Kivalik region of Nunavut 00:08:29.379 --> 00:08:32.720 for close to 20 years. They have two operating 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.720 mines in the region, Meadowbank, that's close 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.820 to Baker Lake, so it's inland, and then Meliadin, 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.299 which is about 30 kilometers from Ranking Inlet, 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:49.009 so on the west shore of the Hudson Bay. They 00:08:49.009 --> 00:08:51.169 know the Arctic quite well. They're also now 00:08:51.169 --> 00:08:53.669 active in other regions in Nunavut, obviously 00:08:53.669 --> 00:08:56.929 very active in Quebec and internationally. So 00:08:56.929 --> 00:09:00.389 they're very good neighbors to have, very experienced, 00:09:00.429 --> 00:09:02.629 and obviously have been doing very well lately 00:09:02.629 --> 00:09:06.509 with the price of gold and what's happening on 00:09:06.509 --> 00:09:10.409 the stock market. You know, I think those historically, 00:09:10.870 --> 00:09:13.370 you know, it's important to reflect on the fact 00:09:13.370 --> 00:09:18.870 that mining, that story of opening a mine and 00:09:18.870 --> 00:09:23.029 then a town blooms right and stays forever afterwards 00:09:23.029 --> 00:09:27.620 even after the mine goes It is a well -known 00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:31.799 story around the world. And so we're seeing some 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:34.720 of that happening in the Arctic, maybe not creating 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:39.659 a town, but certainly creating the economic lightning 00:09:39.659 --> 00:09:42.600 in the bottle that you need to actually get people 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.759 jobs, education, the capacity building. And so 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:49.759 Agnico has been a force to reckon with in terms 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.960 of what they've done for the territory. And mining 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.259 overall for Nunavut, not just Agnico Eagle. but 00:09:56.259 --> 00:09:59.980 with other mines that are operating in the Baffin 00:09:59.980 --> 00:10:02.879 region, for example, mining activity represents 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:10.580 75 % of the Nunavut GDP. Once you say that, you 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:14.159 have to, as a decision maker, as a project proponent, 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:16.899 as an actor in the Arctic, you really have to 00:10:16.899 --> 00:10:21.019 be responsible and think about what happens next. 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:24.740 And my responsibility, the way I view it and 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:28.019 the guidance from my board is to say we want 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:30.759 mining to stay because it's a huge economic boost. 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.720 And especially when you're lucky enough to work 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.100 with companies like Agnico Eagle Mines, you keep 00:10:36.100 --> 00:10:38.860 them. You want to continue working with them 00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:40.580 because they are excellent corporate citizens. 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.600 But you have to think about what happens next, 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:46.620 because those mines are going to close at some 00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:48.940 point, maybe in five years, maybe in 20 years, 00:10:49.019 --> 00:10:52.720 but they won't be there for the next three generations. 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:56.700 So the way we view a project like the Kivalik 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:00.100 HydrofiberLink is a win -win -win, whereby you 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:03.320 connect to a mine, you have this anchor customer 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.419 that is actually very energy intensive, that 00:11:06.419 --> 00:11:09.179 can commit to buying a significant amount of 00:11:09.179 --> 00:11:12.100 power, and that becomes your bankable revenue, 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.440 right? That you can take to market, that you 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:19.039 can unlock investment, thanks to that track record 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:22.480 of their activity in the region. And then you 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.399 create more independent revenue pathways for 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.460 the region by maybe one day being an exporter 00:11:28.460 --> 00:11:30.840 of power, because the transmission line we're 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.779 building would be bidirectional. So who's to 00:11:33.779 --> 00:11:36.220 say that one day Nunavut won't be able to export 00:11:36.220 --> 00:11:39.370 excess? you know, hydropower, if they develop 00:11:39.370 --> 00:11:41.669 hydropower or if there's nuclear one day, you 00:11:41.669 --> 00:11:45.169 know, they could export and put that power back 00:11:45.169 --> 00:11:48.230 onto the grid. You won't be able to access those 00:11:48.230 --> 00:11:50.990 independent revenue streams without infrastructure. 00:11:51.409 --> 00:11:57.379 And so. Agnico gets it. They absolutely are committed 00:11:57.379 --> 00:12:01.080 to the idea of utilizing the role that they play 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.659 right now under their core business of being 00:12:03.659 --> 00:12:06.919 miners, but to help that multi -generational 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:12.259 aspirations for development that Inuit are calling 00:12:12.259 --> 00:12:16.399 for. But again, it's not just one party being 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.500 able to unlock the whole puzzle. It's going to 00:12:19.500 --> 00:12:22.840 have to be... tripartite, you know, multiple 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:27.019 parties at the table, but they are a critical 00:12:27.019 --> 00:12:29.960 piece of the undertaking without which I really 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.679 think we wouldn't have a project. Yes. And what 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.059 are some of those hydro opportunities in Nunavut 00:12:37.059 --> 00:12:41.899 for hydropower? So hydropower has been documented 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:44.879 for a few years in, I think, all three regions 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:50.600 as medium to high potential. In the Baffin region, 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.500 there is a hydro site that is currently under 00:12:54.500 --> 00:12:56.940 feasibility study. It's called the Iqaluit Hydro 00:12:56.940 --> 00:12:59.019 Project, which is a great project that would 00:12:59.019 --> 00:13:05.019 serve the Iqaluit area. It's about, I think, 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:08.600 20 megawatts, so still on the smaller side of 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:12.120 hydro developments, but it would be taking that 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:13.960 community off of diesel, which would be quite 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.059 exciting as Iqaluit is the capital of Nunavut. 00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:20.830 In the Kivalik region where I operate, we know 00:13:20.830 --> 00:13:23.230 that there are some world -class type hydropower 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:28.309 resources, but they are very, very large. And 00:13:28.309 --> 00:13:30.850 so at some point, you have to make some choices, 00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:33.309 right? If you're going to spend $3 billion on 00:13:33.309 --> 00:13:35.210 a transmission line connection, do you want to 00:13:35.210 --> 00:13:38.029 spend another few billions on a hydropower site? 00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:41.009 I think it's all going to come down to the sequence 00:13:41.009 --> 00:13:44.570 of events. And whether you build that generation 00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:47.360 first or you build the... transmission line first. 00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:51.480 I think Inuit are fully flexible. As long as 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.980 people recognize that even if you have local 00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:58.759 hydro generation to maximize the benefit of investing 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.340 in a hydro site like that, you're still going 00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:03.980 to need to microgrid your territory. So a degree 00:14:03.980 --> 00:14:06.299 of transmission line is going to need to be built. 00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:11.399 And so this is why the CHFL, the Kevallik Hydrofiberlink, 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.179 was favored as an option early on, we're talking 00:14:14.179 --> 00:14:17.919 more than 10 years ago, because there's a recognition 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:21.500 that we need that grid anyways, and that it's 00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:24.139 a key enabler for local generation down the road. 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.059 And I would also mention that the west coast 00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:30.919 of the Hudson Bay has the best wind resources 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:35.620 of the whole North American continent. It's very, 00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:39.460 very windy. And so onshore or offshore wind, 00:14:39.659 --> 00:14:42.960 as it's moving ahead with legislation in Canada, 00:14:43.100 --> 00:14:47.440 is of very high potential. I'm sure most of our 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:50.980 listeners weren't really aware of none of the 00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:53.360 opportunity specifically that you're responsible 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:58.799 for, but also the other opportunities. that are 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:02.700 available once you know canada gets things going 00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.919 and start to push these and raise these up the 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.960 agenda can you also talk a little bit about the 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:12.259 hydro fiber link and maybe it's a bit about new 00:15:12.259 --> 00:15:15.299 kick but about the capital structure and how 00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:17.320 you're looking and some of the partners you have 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:19.779 and those people have expressed interest yeah 00:15:20.570 --> 00:15:23.529 Yeah, so we're going to have to de -risk the 00:15:23.529 --> 00:15:26.269 project with a degree of private capital investments. 00:15:26.529 --> 00:15:30.350 And it's becoming mainstream requirements from 00:15:30.350 --> 00:15:36.080 major... bankers that work on the more concessional 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.399 side of loans for major projects. But we have 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:41.519 an ongoing partnership with the Canada Infrastructure 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.720 Bank and they are leading our financial work 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:48.159 stream. We are doing market sounding as we speak 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:52.159 to actually raise senior debt for the project. 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:56.480 Then that allows us to do a bit of a matching 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:01.899 of the debt equity ratio to a CIB, a Canada Infrastructure 00:16:01.899 --> 00:16:04.139 Bank. infrastructure bank loan as well. And then 00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:06.299 the Delta would need to be the federal backstop 00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:08.600 we talked about. And it's a moving target depending 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:14.110 on the construct of your funding stack. There's 00:16:14.110 --> 00:16:17.549 a limit to how much private equity you can contemplate 00:16:17.549 --> 00:16:19.490 for a project of this nature, because the more 00:16:19.490 --> 00:16:22.730 you bring in, it reduces the amount of senior 00:16:22.730 --> 00:16:24.929 debt you can leverage, and also it makes the 00:16:24.929 --> 00:16:27.110 project more expensive just from a return of 00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:30.850 investment expectation perspective. So it's a 00:16:30.850 --> 00:16:34.230 fine line, but it's not something that can be 00:16:34.230 --> 00:16:37.330 done just with the federal government or just 00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:39.529 with the Canada Infrastructure Bank, and certainly 00:16:39.529 --> 00:16:44.600 not just with Inuit investment. We're hoping 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:46.539 that the different players that are going to 00:16:46.539 --> 00:16:49.559 need and want to be involved will solidify as 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.340 we get closer to commercial close, which is hopefully 00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:57.159 going to happen sometime in 2026 or early 2027. 00:16:57.500 --> 00:17:00.419 And then our financial investment decision, FID, 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:03.460 is something that would happen in 2028 so that 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:05.859 we can, as I said, start construction by the 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:10.279 end of 2028. Well, regulated infrastructure assets. 00:17:11.109 --> 00:17:14.549 Many UK and continental investors, those are 00:17:14.549 --> 00:17:18.549 where they want to be. And the big pension funds, 00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:22.329 those are the sort of streams that they like 00:17:22.329 --> 00:17:25.849 to tap into. So it sounds like so many of the 00:17:25.849 --> 00:17:31.529 critical components are in place, as long as 00:17:31.529 --> 00:17:34.930 there's that push to make it happen at all levels 00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:39.690 of government. Yeah, I'll say to be... to be 00:17:39.690 --> 00:17:42.170 real as well, right? Like I think it's important 00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:47.509 for people to get an appreciation for how challenging 00:17:47.509 --> 00:17:51.640 some of those discussions can be. Nobody wants 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:54.900 to take on the full risk, right? So everybody 00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:57.700 we're going to, and that's to be expected, and 00:17:57.700 --> 00:18:01.039 I think it's natural as well, is asking us to 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.700 do risk as much as possible. What this does is 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:06.039 it creates a chicken and egg situation where 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:08.839 people are saying, I'll be there if X is there. 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.500 And then X says, I'll be there if Y is there. 00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:14.259 But, you know, everybody's contingent on the 00:18:14.259 --> 00:18:17.900 next guy showing up. And so unless somebody blinks 00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:21.579 first and actually commits and, ideally, you 00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:24.880 know, their largest player blinks first, then 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:29.220 there's no real incentive for people to gather. 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.619 It doesn't galvanize that momentum commercially 00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:35.460 that you're trying to build. And I think if I 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.819 could just leave listeners on the financial question 00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:40.420 you asked with one comment is, at the end of 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:43.859 the day, those major projects that are so defined 00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:48.140 by their public service nature need the federal 00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:51.730 government to blink first. And that has not happened. 00:18:51.849 --> 00:18:53.769 And I think that's the key source of frustration 00:18:53.769 --> 00:18:59.190 is Canada has not accepted yet the role that 00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:01.650 they ought to play in those projects. And so 00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:04.789 they are pushing it to the proponents, pushing 00:19:04.789 --> 00:19:08.190 it back onto the private sector without realizing 00:19:08.190 --> 00:19:12.490 that they are the critical factor that's going 00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:15.049 to enable those projects to move forward or not. 00:19:17.910 --> 00:19:19.829 Collectively, I think we probably have a responsibility 00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:22.009 to get the federal government to understand the 00:19:22.009 --> 00:19:24.529 role that they can play and also maybe utilize 00:19:24.529 --> 00:19:27.109 and leverage international examples where it's 00:19:27.109 --> 00:19:30.269 been done that way. I'm looking at Greenland. 00:19:30.609 --> 00:19:34.049 Most of their infrastructure was built publicly. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.599 And they have one of the best redundant fiber 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.680 optic coverage coming from Iceland, connecting 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:48.140 to Canada. But those were understood to be very, 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.839 very important investments to make for the country. 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.279 So interesting comparison with Greenland because 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.700 it has been top of mind, right? Yes. They've 00:19:58.700 --> 00:20:01.500 both been, Canada and Greenland are both in the 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:06.839 target. of desirability for our southern neighbor 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.740 or some people down there. How does that infrastructure 00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:15.920 compare to what Greenland had versus what Nunavut 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.140 has at the moment? Can you just give a top line 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:20.779 overview? You've touched on it briefly, but just 00:20:20.779 --> 00:20:23.279 to explain a bit more because that might help 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.279 people benchmark in terms of the opportunity 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.609 that's in front of Canada. Yeah, I mean, I think, 00:20:28.609 --> 00:20:30.809 Mark, when we started the call, you used the 00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:34.250 word disgraced to describe some of what had not 00:20:34.250 --> 00:20:36.650 happened yet in Canada. And I would echo that 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:41.109 because when you go to NUC or when you engage 00:20:41.109 --> 00:20:44.190 with Greenlandish representatives, and there 00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:46.369 are some recurring delegations of Canadians going 00:20:46.369 --> 00:20:49.730 to Greenland and also Iceland to another degree, 00:20:49.950 --> 00:20:55.990 you really realize that there's no... engineering 00:20:55.990 --> 00:21:00.890 -based reason why the North could not be developed 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:04.109 to the degree where we're seeing across other 00:21:04.109 --> 00:21:07.930 Arctic nations, such as Greenland. So there's 00:21:07.930 --> 00:21:11.029 no embedded reasons why this is impossible or 00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:14.470 challenging or complex or insurmountable. That's 00:21:14.470 --> 00:21:16.369 the number one observation that you make when 00:21:16.369 --> 00:21:21.250 you go there. Number two is that when you have 00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:25.660 reliable and clean infrastructure, such as, you 00:21:25.660 --> 00:21:30.059 know, for them, it's a lot of hydropower. It's 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:32.859 a critical enabler for things like housing, like 00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:36.460 education, like hospitals. And it's a key... 00:21:37.299 --> 00:21:40.539 attraction factor to bring skilled labor as well. 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.740 And Nunavut, you know, I talk a lot about energy 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:45.559 telecommunication. This is what I know. But I 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:47.380 think what the first thing that people would 00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:49.400 say when they go to Nunavut is that it feels 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.539 like it's stuck 60 years behind in terms of the 00:21:52.539 --> 00:21:55.460 rest of Canada. And I'm being gentle. It's, you 00:21:55.460 --> 00:21:58.539 know, it is appalling the living conditions that 00:21:58.539 --> 00:22:02.140 people are being asked to just put up with. you 00:22:02.140 --> 00:22:04.619 know, families of eight or ten living in a two 00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:08.799 -bedroom apartment, gravel roads everywhere, 00:22:09.259 --> 00:22:12.599 airports with gravel runways or runways that 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:17.880 cannot just that cannot accommodate large freight 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:21.400 planes or cargo planes. So you have to just wait 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.279 for the barge and reducing your ability to have 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.839 access to cargo year -round. It's just the whole 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:31.759 suite, the whole nexus, right, of what it means 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.799 to have infrastructure. And that's what keeps 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.279 me motivated to work on the project is because... 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.519 I always say it's not an energy or telecommunication 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.539 project. It's an infrastructure project in its 00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:46.059 very definition where the day you build that 00:22:46.059 --> 00:22:49.099 asset, there's going to be a before very clearly 00:22:49.099 --> 00:22:52.279 and an after. And I do this for the economic 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:54.359 development opportunities that I see because 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.440 once you are connected, you're in business and 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.960 you are a master of your own destiny in terms 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.079 of making those choices because you have that 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:05.950 backbone that can support those decisions. And 00:23:05.950 --> 00:23:07.829 so when you go to a place like Greenland, this 00:23:07.829 --> 00:23:10.750 is what you see. You see a nation that's, yes, 00:23:10.809 --> 00:23:14.109 Arctic, that has a very strong culture, but you 00:23:14.109 --> 00:23:19.670 don't see a 50 or 100 year divide in terms of 00:23:19.670 --> 00:23:21.589 the infrastructure you would see in Denmark versus 00:23:21.589 --> 00:23:25.569 what you see in Greenland. And that is drastically 00:23:25.569 --> 00:23:29.329 different from what you see between, you know, 00:23:29.329 --> 00:23:35.019 southern Canada and Nunavut, Canada. Yes. I'm 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:37.519 sure many of our listeners, Canada's perceived 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:40.220 when outside, when somebody says Canada, there's 00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:42.920 all these positive values, progressive, dot, 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:46.259 dot, dot. And then you hear stories like this. 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.980 And it's that does not fit with the story that 00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.869 Canada has told to the world and let told. Right? 00:23:53.009 --> 00:23:55.329 It's not just Canada. People play it back and 00:23:55.329 --> 00:23:57.130 all that. And when you hear this, there's this 00:23:57.130 --> 00:24:01.190 huge opportunity, this huge gap, which is disgraceful. 00:24:01.650 --> 00:24:04.450 Greenland is a benchmark. I mean, Canada is a 00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:08.049 leader. And in terms of the G7, Canada has some 00:24:08.049 --> 00:24:12.109 of the most room of any G7 nations to invest 00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:15.109 in infrastructure and game -changing projects. 00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:17.869 And infrastructure is like that. Yes. You know, 00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:22.119 you have to, you can't calculate it all. right 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.299 it's like some of the projects here in the uk 00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:27.440 just whether it's you know hs1 the elizabeth 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:29.839 line or a different thing oh look how expensive 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.200 it is etc but it game changes because once you 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:34.920 connect things all kinds of other things that 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.839 you can't calculate up front happen and it's 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.819 about where do we want to go as a as a country 00:24:42.819 --> 00:24:45.079 and what needs to be done and the world's changed 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.400 so if we don't look after all our regions others 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.650 are very interested in doing so for us very much 00:24:51.650 --> 00:24:55.009 so yeah and raphael i was going to ask about 00:24:55.009 --> 00:24:59.089 defense applications because i'm sure and you 00:24:59.089 --> 00:25:02.230 alluded to it renewed interest in your project 00:25:02.230 --> 00:25:08.269 over the last 12 months and can you imagine the 00:25:08.269 --> 00:25:11.230 canadian government has committed made commitments 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:15.390 in the billions of dollars to boost defense spending 00:25:16.429 --> 00:25:19.690 Can you imagine fulfilling those requirements 00:25:19.690 --> 00:25:25.029 without sort of a spine corridor like the Kivalik 00:25:25.029 --> 00:25:34.390 hydro fiber link? Yeah, very good question. And 00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:36.289 it's an angle, it's interesting because when 00:25:36.289 --> 00:25:39.089 I started on the Kivalik hydro fiber link, you 00:25:39.089 --> 00:25:41.589 know, Arctic sovereignty and national security 00:25:41.589 --> 00:25:43.869 weren't very much talked about. And we were just 00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:49.720 talking 2022. The horizon and also the lay of 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:53.079 the land has completely changed in just a handful 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:56.160 of years. That's point number one. And I think 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.339 it's accelerating now because we're realizing 00:25:58.339 --> 00:26:01.319 that we are completely unprepared, completely 00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.980 unprotected in the Arctic. And obviously the 00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:10.190 USA doesn't like that very much. I think the 00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:13.349 Arctic sovereignty and the national defense angles 00:26:13.349 --> 00:26:15.670 are going to be critical pieces of putting the 00:26:15.670 --> 00:26:19.190 architecture of the deal together. If I were 00:26:19.190 --> 00:26:23.470 to just talk about the financing of the project, 00:26:23.710 --> 00:26:27.150 we have had many discussions with national defense 00:26:27.150 --> 00:26:30.309 over the years, as you can imagine, and the interest 00:26:30.309 --> 00:26:34.289 is there. I think it's, you know, national defense. 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.539 in over the years didn't used to have the deep 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:41.140 pockets that it has now um so i think it's just 00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:43.759 within at least the bureaucracy of national defense 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:45.740 i think they're still trying they have a bit 00:26:45.740 --> 00:26:48.700 of an identity crisis with where they still see 00:26:48.700 --> 00:26:52.259 themselves as kind of small and you know just 00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:55.220 having to kind of You know, call the USA, really, 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:57.319 when we had an incident and then the USA would 00:26:57.319 --> 00:26:59.720 take down whatever was happening in the Arctic, 00:26:59.740 --> 00:27:02.500 which is historically what we had to do. And 00:27:02.500 --> 00:27:05.099 now they're realizing that, oh, my gosh, we actually 00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:06.900 have billions of dollars now in the coffers. 00:27:07.259 --> 00:27:12.339 But no one has used this kind of decision making 00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:16.099 over this kind of pot of money in ever, maybe 00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:21.180 in our Canadian history. So I think this is. 00:27:21.549 --> 00:27:23.730 You know, at my level, at least, right, which 00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:26.210 there are other levels of interveners with with 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:28.789 national defense. But I think they're just trying 00:27:28.789 --> 00:27:30.769 to really understand their raison d 'etre now. 00:27:31.009 --> 00:27:34.789 Are we are we to are we first of all, are we 00:27:34.789 --> 00:27:36.809 defending the Arctic against China, against Russia 00:27:36.809 --> 00:27:40.690 or against the US? Are we administrators or are 00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:43.549 we procurement spenders? So they created this 00:27:43.549 --> 00:27:46.569 Arctic industrial strategy. We now have a defense 00:27:46.569 --> 00:27:52.009 procurement agency. Again, Canada tackles. their 00:27:52.009 --> 00:27:54.589 response by creating more bureaucracy. So that's 00:27:54.589 --> 00:27:56.609 fine. Let's see what they do with it. But it's 00:27:56.609 --> 00:27:58.930 other countries would say, let's take actions 00:27:58.930 --> 00:28:03.089 first and let's really go fast because we are 00:28:03.089 --> 00:28:05.990 trying to catch up a high speed train here. Whereas 00:28:05.990 --> 00:28:08.970 Canada's response to say, we're going to publish 00:28:08.970 --> 00:28:11.089 a strategy every year and it's going to change 00:28:11.089 --> 00:28:13.450 every time there's a new government. And then 00:28:13.450 --> 00:28:15.690 we're going to create a bunch of crown corporations 00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:17.849 to manage this money, but we're not going to 00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:19.950 really spend it because we're just, you know, 00:28:19.970 --> 00:28:22.609 it's, it's. We don't like spending that much 00:28:22.609 --> 00:28:25.950 money, especially in the Arctic. So I'm being 00:28:25.950 --> 00:28:31.049 a bit sarcastic here. But the defense angle is 00:28:31.049 --> 00:28:34.809 what is the most talked about item when it comes 00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:39.490 to those major projects. But it's the most nebulous. 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.819 to navigate as a project proponent because the 00:28:43.819 --> 00:28:46.059 criteria as to what's going to make the 2 % or 00:28:46.059 --> 00:28:51.019 5 % NATO spending is not clear. The degree of 00:28:51.019 --> 00:28:53.200 partnership they're willing to contemplate with 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.160 private project proponents is unclear. And I 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.859 think their own relationship with the Crown is 00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:01.799 unclear. Yes, interesting. And I don't think 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:05.980 they're based in Ecolet or Nunavut. Not most 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:12.059 of them, no. Wow. Absolutely fascinating discussion. 00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:14.980 We've used up a lot of the time. We've gone over, 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.700 but it's a great conversation. I'd really like 00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:19.299 to ask you about being the Canadian representative 00:29:19.299 --> 00:29:21.619 on the Commission for Environmental Cooperation 00:29:21.619 --> 00:29:24.420 Joint Public Advisory Committee. It's one of 00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:27.119 the trilateral North American bodies spanning 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.759 Canada, US and Mexico that are really important 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:35.220 for all of us who live in. in North America, 00:29:35.299 --> 00:29:38.779 and they're not really appreciated and understood, 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.220 but they work in the background and make things 00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:43.819 happen. Can you talk a little bit about what 00:29:43.819 --> 00:29:46.960 that's about and where it fits in to give our 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.680 listeners some background? Because this is kind 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:51.940 of the importance, like with the European Union 00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:54.920 has its structure, we have these trilateral commissions, 00:29:55.339 --> 00:29:57.960 and they're not so well known, if you wouldn't 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.069 mind speaking on that for a little bit. Thank 00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:02.569 you for the opportunity to highlight the work 00:30:02.569 --> 00:30:05.289 of the North American Environmental Cooperation 00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:09.440 Commission, the CEC. So I was appointed by the 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.339 Federal Minister of Climate Change at the time, 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:13.819 Minister Catherine McKenna, in 2019. So I've 00:30:13.819 --> 00:30:15.759 been with them for a few years and reappointed 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:19.640 over the years. I was the chair in 2025 for the 00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:23.460 organization, which was fantastic work. And really, 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.359 if I were to try and summarize, the work of the 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.440 commission is to essentially implement... what 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:32.940 used to be known as NAFTA, right? And now is 00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:37.220 known as the USMCA. So those trade agreements 00:30:37.220 --> 00:30:40.380 for commercial ties between Mexico, Canada, and 00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:44.079 the USA. The understanding was we also have to 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.160 look at the environment. We also have to look 00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.319 at our shared ecosystems because, you know, sustainability, 00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:52.779 climate change and all of those environmental 00:30:52.779 --> 00:30:56.680 matters don't have borders. And we are more connected 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.880 than we're not as as a continent. And so we really 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:02.119 should look at those environmental priorities 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:07.579 in lockstep as countries. The you know, as I'm 00:31:07.579 --> 00:31:11.470 sure you can appreciate, it's a different. It's 00:31:11.470 --> 00:31:14.109 a different world. Some people refer to it as 00:31:14.109 --> 00:31:16.109 a different world order. We'll see where that 00:31:16.109 --> 00:31:20.990 takes us. But the USA has withdrawn from a number 00:31:20.990 --> 00:31:24.269 of those underpinning agreements, and the USMCA 00:31:24.269 --> 00:31:28.470 is on the hot seat, to say the least. So we'll 00:31:28.470 --> 00:31:32.339 see what happens next. on the administration 00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:35.359 side for all three countries is still very strong. 00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:38.859 And the programs that we are leading are still 00:31:38.859 --> 00:31:43.519 being implemented. And we still have our public 00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:47.759 forums once a year. We have our sessions with 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:50.400 the parties every year as well, where we just 00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.119 look at the different priorities from the three 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.380 countries and hear from the public on what is 00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:58.960 top of mind in those three jurisdictions. And 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.940 it's the most interesting part because you actually 00:32:01.940 --> 00:32:05.980 hear grassroots considerations. I remember, I'll 00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:08.700 just give you an example, but a few years ago 00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:12.839 we were in Merida in Mexico and we heard a lot 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:17.019 about two things. One was the train Maya that 00:32:17.019 --> 00:32:19.960 was being built, which was really at the intersection 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.539 of... environmental protection and economic development, 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.140 right? So how was that tension going to be worked 00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:29.920 out? And obviously now the train, I think, is 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.720 still under construction or fully built, and 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.259 it is going to be a key economic long for that 00:32:36.259 --> 00:32:39.279 region, touristically and otherwise, but it had 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.269 to be done under certain conditions. And the 00:32:42.269 --> 00:32:44.690 other things that were brought up was agriculture, 00:32:45.009 --> 00:32:47.910 intensive agriculture and the use of pesticides. 00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:51.490 And also the fact that China was buying a lot 00:32:51.490 --> 00:32:55.509 of land in Mexico to have very, very large pork 00:32:55.509 --> 00:33:02.549 raising facilities, like cattle facilities, which 00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:05.490 as a Canadian, I had no idea. So I think it's 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:08.130 just... to highlight the fact that those organizations 00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:13.009 have a critical role to make us aware of what's 00:33:13.009 --> 00:33:15.529 happening within our borders and beyond, and 00:33:15.529 --> 00:33:18.009 then build those coalitions that sometimes move 00:33:18.009 --> 00:33:20.269 the needle just a bit, but it's enough to start 00:33:20.269 --> 00:33:25.650 a movement or at least to start improving the 00:33:25.650 --> 00:33:29.049 system. Well, thank you for that background. 00:33:29.150 --> 00:33:31.250 That'll be informative for all our listeners, 00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:34.910 I'm sure. Rob, do you have a final question? 00:33:36.269 --> 00:33:39.970 And Raphael, I guess it's unfortunate you can't 00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:45.170 make our London summit that's coming up. But 00:33:45.170 --> 00:33:47.710 it sounds like you will be reaching out if you 00:33:47.710 --> 00:33:52.670 haven't already to foreign investors. We'd love 00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:54.529 to have you next year for the fourth annual, 00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:58.480 if you're able to make it then. Yeah, I will 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:01.200 put it in my calendar for sure. I'll tell you, 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:04.920 I hadn't heard about that forum. At first, when 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:06.700 Linford did it to me, I thought it was London, 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.780 Ontario, just to tell you. Probably as expensive 00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:13.960 to get to London, Ontario, as it is to London, 00:34:14.019 --> 00:34:19.579 England. Yes, but no, next year, so 2027, I will 00:34:19.579 --> 00:34:23.360 be there. Excellent. Of course, we will have 00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.530 further progress on the project as well. Just 00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:29.329 before we wrap up, is there something that we 00:34:29.329 --> 00:34:31.010 didn't touch on that you would like to highlight? 00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:33.969 No, I think that was excellent. I mean, as you 00:34:33.969 --> 00:34:36.090 can tell, I love talking about the Arctic and 00:34:36.090 --> 00:34:38.670 love talking about the project. And I'm grateful 00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:40.329 always for the opportunity to shine the light 00:34:40.329 --> 00:34:42.429 on the work that we do. So just want to say thank 00:34:42.429 --> 00:34:46.130 you. Okay, well, it certainly has been fascinating. 00:34:46.269 --> 00:34:49.489 Thank you very much for your time today. It's 00:34:49.489 --> 00:34:52.650 been great, very intensive, and very informative. 00:34:53.030 --> 00:34:55.769 And it's one of the huge economic opportunities 00:34:55.769 --> 00:34:58.809 in front of those looking at investing in Canada. 00:34:58.929 --> 00:35:02.250 So thank you very much. Yes, yes. Awesome. Okay, 00:35:02.349 --> 00:35:03.969 well, thank you so much for your time and for 00:35:03.969 --> 00:35:10.730 the opportunity. Okay. Thank you, Tan Raphael 00:35:10.730 --> 00:35:13.440 Udwan, for sharing your insights with us. And 00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:16.159 thank you for viewing and listening. Mark your 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:18.960 calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit taking 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.920 place on the 8th of April. Be sure to share, 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:24.139 subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite 00:35:24.139 --> 00:35:27.159 podcast channel. Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. 00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:28.360 Until next time.