Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Rob Brant and
I are back with Anne -Raphael Oudwan, CEO of
Newkick Corporation, the 100 % Inuit -owned developer
behind the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link. In part one,
We heard how Nunavik came to be one of the most
isolated jurisdictions in the developing world,
why 138 million liters of foreign diesel flow
into the territory every year, and how Nukic
became the first arctic electricity developer
in North America to be certified by the mid -continent
independent system operator, MISO. In the second
part, we get into the project itself, and Rafael
walks us through the full route. 1 ,200 kilometers
of dual -use transmission and fiber optic, running
north from Churchill and Manitoba to connect
five of the Kivalec's seven communities to the
continental grid for the first time. She explains
what changed in April 2025. Manitoba elected
the first Indigenous Premier across the country,
and subsequently Manitoba and Nunavut signed
a historic joint declaration, and 50 megawatts
of hydropower were committed specifically to
this project. That moment, turned a concept into
commercially viable undertaking. We then move
into the financing architecture that hopefully
will provide the foundation for the business.
The role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank, the
role of Agnico Eagle Mines as the anchor customers
whose energy contracts can provide the bankable
revenue base, and why federal commitment remains
the one piece necessary to unlock the entire
capital stack. We also discussed the hydropower
and wind generation potential that transmission
infrastructure would unlock. And also speak about
Anne Raphael's role on the Commission for Environmental
Cooperation, a trilateral body spanning Canada,
the United States, and Mexico. If you haven't
listened to part one yet, we encourage you to
start there. But if you're coming straight to
the project numbers, this is where it's all at.
Anne Raphael, talk. then about status of the
project and first of all we're talking about
the Kivlik hydro fiber corridor project and where
exactly from where to where what points are we
talking about and what's the status of the project
today Yeah, thank you for the question. So the
Kivalik Hydrofiber Link is a 1 ,200 -kilometer
dual -use, multipurpose transmission asset that
would be paired with fiber optic. It would connect
near Churchill in northern Manitoba, cross the
Nunavut -Manitoba border, essentially as a straight
-shooting arrow pointing north, and then serve
almost the entirety of the Kivalik region, with
five out of seven hamlets being connected to
the continental grid. and the ranking inlet Meliadin
Mine, which is owned by Agnico Eagle Mines, which
is the largest Canadian gold miner at this time,
and I think the second largest gold miner in
the world, and serve those loads, residential,
government, businesses, and industrial loads,
and obviously bring fiber optic into those regions.
Right now, as I said, but I'll repeat it, everything
functions on diesel. It's not like you have diesel
and some wind or diesel and some... geothermal
or diesel and some natural gas, everything is
100 % on diesel. There's no other base load,
which is the stable, you know, best type of electricity
you need to keep your system stable, which is
a good thing to have in a region as cold as the
Arctic. There's no optionality. So it would be
life changing for a multitude of reasons. What's
Manitoba's position? Have they got excess power
that they're looking to sell? Yeah, so it's interesting.
I'll go a few years back. When I started on the
project in 2022, it was very hard to engage with
the province of Manitoba. And that was one of
the key reasons at the time why the federal government
was not fully at the table in the Kivalik hydrofiber
link. Last year, in April 2025, something historic
happened because Premier Canoe, the Premier of
Manitoba, and the former Premier of Nunavut...
Premier PJ Akyagak, got together and signed a
joint declaration to create a strategic energy
and economic corridor between Manitoba and Nunavut.
And by doing so, Premier Canoe repatriated expiring
hydro export contracts to the U .S. and carved
out 50 megawatts. of that repatriation and dedicated
it towards the cuvalic hydrofiber link, not just
to Nunavut, but very specifically to the cuvalic
hydrofiber link. That completely changed the
law and order for the project, because up until
then, we were trying to get the parties at the
table. But since April 2025, and that's the reason
we are almost done the development phase and
getting into engineering and procurement, that's
the reason why we got certified by MISO. We were
able to file our transmission service request
with Mayotoba Hydro, you know, have commercial
agreements in place with Kudlik Energy Corporation,
which is the territorial utility. That's the
reason why all of those commercial milestones
and technical milestones were completed was because
Manitoba committed the power to the project.
Up until then, we had a concept, we had an idea,
but we didn't have a product that would flow
through the transmission line. That was a complete...
shift in the paradigm of developing the project
whereby now we have partners and we're just trying
to crack the code on how we're going to make
it happen with all the caveats that I mentioned
earlier with the federal government and trying
to find a winning recipe. Manitoba Hydro does
not have surplus electricity at this time. However,
we are planning to put shovel in the ground in
2028 and commission by 2032. That is a bit of
an alignment of the stars because Manitoba Hydro
is putting out call for proposals as we speak,
and some of them have been awarded already, to
build new wind and also to build new peak natural
gas. And so that is what they're taking all the
right steps to reinforce their system, which
is already more than 80 % hydropower, so 80 %
renewable, and continue to be a major player
in the heart of the prairies, serving potentially
Nunavut, hopefully soon, and then being interconnected
to all those states just south of Manitoba. not
worried about supplying power. The grid is built
and generation is built over long periods of
time. What we need to do is have the integrated
resource planning mindset that actually unlocks
that foresight and allows you to be good planners
of your own resources. Wow, what a story. And
Indigenous leadership, when we talk about the
Premier of Manitoba, right away, gets it right
there's still a lot to be done but what a game
changer yes uh in terms of attitudes and you
know it just shows it's not enough for people
to think oh i'm going to do something good and
help out right it's how do you provide that empowerment
to the indigenous peoples across the country
to get things done and that's you know who you
represent and is is driving this forward in terms
of The Inuit and Nunavut, this whole thing starts
to build momentum, but I'm sure it is still frustrating.
You mentioned earlier about, you know, Agnico
Eagle, mine. Can you talk about it a little bit
about their role and what they see and their
contribution? Of course, you don't represent
them, but from your perspective, what that brings
to the table, having them so nearby. Yeah, so
Agnico Eagle Mines, you know, they've been in
the region, so in the Kivalik region of Nunavut
for close to 20 years. They have two operating
mines in the region, Meadowbank, that's close
to Baker Lake, so it's inland, and then Meliadin,
which is about 30 kilometers from Ranking Inlet,
so on the west shore of the Hudson Bay. They
know the Arctic quite well. They're also now
active in other regions in Nunavut, obviously
very active in Quebec and internationally. So
they're very good neighbors to have, very experienced,
and obviously have been doing very well lately
with the price of gold and what's happening on
the stock market. You know, I think those historically,
you know, it's important to reflect on the fact
that mining, that story of opening a mine and
then a town blooms right and stays forever afterwards
even after the mine goes It is a well -known
story around the world. And so we're seeing some
of that happening in the Arctic, maybe not creating
a town, but certainly creating the economic lightning
in the bottle that you need to actually get people
jobs, education, the capacity building. And so
Agnico has been a force to reckon with in terms
of what they've done for the territory. And mining
overall for Nunavut, not just Agnico Eagle. but
with other mines that are operating in the Baffin
region, for example, mining activity represents
75 % of the Nunavut GDP. Once you say that, you
have to, as a decision maker, as a project proponent,
as an actor in the Arctic, you really have to
be responsible and think about what happens next.
And my responsibility, the way I view it and
the guidance from my board is to say we want
mining to stay because it's a huge economic boost.
And especially when you're lucky enough to work
with companies like Agnico Eagle Mines, you keep
them. You want to continue working with them
because they are excellent corporate citizens.
But you have to think about what happens next,
because those mines are going to close at some
point, maybe in five years, maybe in 20 years,
but they won't be there for the next three generations.
So the way we view a project like the Kivalik
HydrofiberLink is a win -win -win, whereby you
connect to a mine, you have this anchor customer
that is actually very energy intensive, that
can commit to buying a significant amount of
power, and that becomes your bankable revenue,
right? That you can take to market, that you
can unlock investment, thanks to that track record
of their activity in the region. And then you
create more independent revenue pathways for
the region by maybe one day being an exporter
of power, because the transmission line we're
building would be bidirectional. So who's to
say that one day Nunavut won't be able to export
excess? you know, hydropower, if they develop
hydropower or if there's nuclear one day, you
know, they could export and put that power back
onto the grid. You won't be able to access those
independent revenue streams without infrastructure.
And so. Agnico gets it. They absolutely are committed
to the idea of utilizing the role that they play
right now under their core business of being
miners, but to help that multi -generational
aspirations for development that Inuit are calling
for. But again, it's not just one party being
able to unlock the whole puzzle. It's going to
have to be... tripartite, you know, multiple
parties at the table, but they are a critical
piece of the undertaking without which I really
think we wouldn't have a project. Yes. And what
are some of those hydro opportunities in Nunavut
for hydropower? So hydropower has been documented
for a few years in, I think, all three regions
as medium to high potential. In the Baffin region,
there is a hydro site that is currently under
feasibility study. It's called the Iqaluit Hydro
Project, which is a great project that would
serve the Iqaluit area. It's about, I think,
20 megawatts, so still on the smaller side of
hydro developments, but it would be taking that
community off of diesel, which would be quite
exciting as Iqaluit is the capital of Nunavut.
In the Kivalik region where I operate, we know
that there are some world -class type hydropower
resources, but they are very, very large. And
so at some point, you have to make some choices,
right? If you're going to spend $3 billion on
a transmission line connection, do you want to
spend another few billions on a hydropower site?
I think it's all going to come down to the sequence
of events. And whether you build that generation
first or you build the... transmission line first.
I think Inuit are fully flexible. As long as
people recognize that even if you have local
hydro generation to maximize the benefit of investing
in a hydro site like that, you're still going
to need to microgrid your territory. So a degree
of transmission line is going to need to be built.
And so this is why the CHFL, the Kevallik Hydrofiberlink,
was favored as an option early on, we're talking
more than 10 years ago, because there's a recognition
that we need that grid anyways, and that it's
a key enabler for local generation down the road.
And I would also mention that the west coast
of the Hudson Bay has the best wind resources
of the whole North American continent. It's very,
very windy. And so onshore or offshore wind,
as it's moving ahead with legislation in Canada,
is of very high potential. I'm sure most of our
listeners weren't really aware of none of the
opportunity specifically that you're responsible
for, but also the other opportunities. that are
available once you know canada gets things going
and start to push these and raise these up the
agenda can you also talk a little bit about the
hydro fiber link and maybe it's a bit about new
kick but about the capital structure and how
you're looking and some of the partners you have
and those people have expressed interest yeah
Yeah, so we're going to have to de -risk the
project with a degree of private capital investments.
And it's becoming mainstream requirements from
major... bankers that work on the more concessional
side of loans for major projects. But we have
an ongoing partnership with the Canada Infrastructure
Bank and they are leading our financial work
stream. We are doing market sounding as we speak
to actually raise senior debt for the project.
Then that allows us to do a bit of a matching
of the debt equity ratio to a CIB, a Canada Infrastructure
Bank. infrastructure bank loan as well. And then
the Delta would need to be the federal backstop
we talked about. And it's a moving target depending
on the construct of your funding stack. There's
a limit to how much private equity you can contemplate
for a project of this nature, because the more
you bring in, it reduces the amount of senior
debt you can leverage, and also it makes the
project more expensive just from a return of
investment expectation perspective. So it's a
fine line, but it's not something that can be
done just with the federal government or just
with the Canada Infrastructure Bank, and certainly
not just with Inuit investment. We're hoping
that the different players that are going to
need and want to be involved will solidify as
we get closer to commercial close, which is hopefully
going to happen sometime in 2026 or early 2027.
And then our financial investment decision, FID,
is something that would happen in 2028 so that
we can, as I said, start construction by the
end of 2028. Well, regulated infrastructure assets.
Many UK and continental investors, those are
where they want to be. And the big pension funds,
those are the sort of streams that they like
to tap into. So it sounds like so many of the
critical components are in place, as long as
there's that push to make it happen at all levels
of government. Yeah, I'll say to be... to be
real as well, right? Like I think it's important
for people to get an appreciation for how challenging
some of those discussions can be. Nobody wants
to take on the full risk, right? So everybody
we're going to, and that's to be expected, and
I think it's natural as well, is asking us to
do risk as much as possible. What this does is
it creates a chicken and egg situation where
people are saying, I'll be there if X is there.
And then X says, I'll be there if Y is there.
But, you know, everybody's contingent on the
next guy showing up. And so unless somebody blinks
first and actually commits and, ideally, you
know, their largest player blinks first, then
there's no real incentive for people to gather.
It doesn't galvanize that momentum commercially
that you're trying to build. And I think if I
could just leave listeners on the financial question
you asked with one comment is, at the end of
the day, those major projects that are so defined
by their public service nature need the federal
government to blink first. And that has not happened.
And I think that's the key source of frustration
is Canada has not accepted yet the role that
they ought to play in those projects. And so
they are pushing it to the proponents, pushing
it back onto the private sector without realizing
that they are the critical factor that's going
to enable those projects to move forward or not.
Collectively, I think we probably have a responsibility
to get the federal government to understand the
role that they can play and also maybe utilize
and leverage international examples where it's
been done that way. I'm looking at Greenland.
Most of their infrastructure was built publicly.
And they have one of the best redundant fiber
optic coverage coming from Iceland, connecting
to Canada. But those were understood to be very,
very important investments to make for the country.
So interesting comparison with Greenland because
it has been top of mind, right? Yes. They've
both been, Canada and Greenland are both in the
target. of desirability for our southern neighbor
or some people down there. How does that infrastructure
compare to what Greenland had versus what Nunavut
has at the moment? Can you just give a top line
overview? You've touched on it briefly, but just
to explain a bit more because that might help
people benchmark in terms of the opportunity
that's in front of Canada. Yeah, I mean, I think,
Mark, when we started the call, you used the
word disgraced to describe some of what had not
happened yet in Canada. And I would echo that
because when you go to NUC or when you engage
with Greenlandish representatives, and there
are some recurring delegations of Canadians going
to Greenland and also Iceland to another degree,
you really realize that there's no... engineering
-based reason why the North could not be developed
to the degree where we're seeing across other
Arctic nations, such as Greenland. So there's
no embedded reasons why this is impossible or
challenging or complex or insurmountable. That's
the number one observation that you make when
you go there. Number two is that when you have
reliable and clean infrastructure, such as, you
know, for them, it's a lot of hydropower. It's
a critical enabler for things like housing, like
education, like hospitals. And it's a key...
attraction factor to bring skilled labor as well.
And Nunavut, you know, I talk a lot about energy
telecommunication. This is what I know. But I
think what the first thing that people would
say when they go to Nunavut is that it feels
like it's stuck 60 years behind in terms of the
rest of Canada. And I'm being gentle. It's, you
know, it is appalling the living conditions that
people are being asked to just put up with. you
know, families of eight or ten living in a two
-bedroom apartment, gravel roads everywhere,
airports with gravel runways or runways that
cannot just that cannot accommodate large freight
planes or cargo planes. So you have to just wait
for the barge and reducing your ability to have
access to cargo year -round. It's just the whole
suite, the whole nexus, right, of what it means
to have infrastructure. And that's what keeps
me motivated to work on the project is because...
I always say it's not an energy or telecommunication
project. It's an infrastructure project in its
very definition where the day you build that
asset, there's going to be a before very clearly
and an after. And I do this for the economic
development opportunities that I see because
once you are connected, you're in business and
you are a master of your own destiny in terms
of making those choices because you have that
backbone that can support those decisions. And
so when you go to a place like Greenland, this
is what you see. You see a nation that's, yes,
Arctic, that has a very strong culture, but you
don't see a 50 or 100 year divide in terms of
the infrastructure you would see in Denmark versus
what you see in Greenland. And that is drastically
different from what you see between, you know,
southern Canada and Nunavut, Canada. Yes. I'm
sure many of our listeners, Canada's perceived
when outside, when somebody says Canada, there's
all these positive values, progressive, dot,
dot, dot. And then you hear stories like this.
And it's that does not fit with the story that
Canada has told to the world and let told. Right?
It's not just Canada. People play it back and
all that. And when you hear this, there's this
huge opportunity, this huge gap, which is disgraceful.
Greenland is a benchmark. I mean, Canada is a
leader. And in terms of the G7, Canada has some
of the most room of any G7 nations to invest
in infrastructure and game -changing projects.
And infrastructure is like that. Yes. You know,
you have to, you can't calculate it all. right
it's like some of the projects here in the uk
just whether it's you know hs1 the elizabeth
line or a different thing oh look how expensive
it is etc but it game changes because once you
connect things all kinds of other things that
you can't calculate up front happen and it's
about where do we want to go as a as a country
and what needs to be done and the world's changed
so if we don't look after all our regions others
are very interested in doing so for us very much
so yeah and raphael i was going to ask about
defense applications because i'm sure and you
alluded to it renewed interest in your project
over the last 12 months and can you imagine the
canadian government has committed made commitments
in the billions of dollars to boost defense spending
Can you imagine fulfilling those requirements
without sort of a spine corridor like the Kivalik
hydro fiber link? Yeah, very good question. And
it's an angle, it's interesting because when
I started on the Kivalik hydro fiber link, you
know, Arctic sovereignty and national security
weren't very much talked about. And we were just
talking 2022. The horizon and also the lay of
the land has completely changed in just a handful
of years. That's point number one. And I think
it's accelerating now because we're realizing
that we are completely unprepared, completely
unprotected in the Arctic. And obviously the
USA doesn't like that very much. I think the
Arctic sovereignty and the national defense angles
are going to be critical pieces of putting the
architecture of the deal together. If I were
to just talk about the financing of the project,
we have had many discussions with national defense
over the years, as you can imagine, and the interest
is there. I think it's, you know, national defense.
in over the years didn't used to have the deep
pockets that it has now um so i think it's just
within at least the bureaucracy of national defense
i think they're still trying they have a bit
of an identity crisis with where they still see
themselves as kind of small and you know just
having to kind of You know, call the USA, really,
when we had an incident and then the USA would
take down whatever was happening in the Arctic,
which is historically what we had to do. And
now they're realizing that, oh, my gosh, we actually
have billions of dollars now in the coffers.
But no one has used this kind of decision making
over this kind of pot of money in ever, maybe
in our Canadian history. So I think this is.
You know, at my level, at least, right, which
there are other levels of interveners with with
national defense. But I think they're just trying
to really understand their raison d 'etre now.
Are we are we to are we first of all, are we
defending the Arctic against China, against Russia
or against the US? Are we administrators or are
we procurement spenders? So they created this
Arctic industrial strategy. We now have a defense
procurement agency. Again, Canada tackles. their
response by creating more bureaucracy. So that's
fine. Let's see what they do with it. But it's
other countries would say, let's take actions
first and let's really go fast because we are
trying to catch up a high speed train here. Whereas
Canada's response to say, we're going to publish
a strategy every year and it's going to change
every time there's a new government. And then
we're going to create a bunch of crown corporations
to manage this money, but we're not going to
really spend it because we're just, you know,
it's, it's. We don't like spending that much
money, especially in the Arctic. So I'm being
a bit sarcastic here. But the defense angle is
what is the most talked about item when it comes
to those major projects. But it's the most nebulous.
to navigate as a project proponent because the
criteria as to what's going to make the 2 % or
5 % NATO spending is not clear. The degree of
partnership they're willing to contemplate with
private project proponents is unclear. And I
think their own relationship with the Crown is
unclear. Yes, interesting. And I don't think
they're based in Ecolet or Nunavut. Not most
of them, no. Wow. Absolutely fascinating discussion.
We've used up a lot of the time. We've gone over,
but it's a great conversation. I'd really like
to ask you about being the Canadian representative
on the Commission for Environmental Cooperation
Joint Public Advisory Committee. It's one of
the trilateral North American bodies spanning
Canada, US and Mexico that are really important
for all of us who live in. in North America,
and they're not really appreciated and understood,
but they work in the background and make things
happen. Can you talk a little bit about what
that's about and where it fits in to give our
listeners some background? Because this is kind
of the importance, like with the European Union
has its structure, we have these trilateral commissions,
and they're not so well known, if you wouldn't
mind speaking on that for a little bit. Thank
you for the opportunity to highlight the work
of the North American Environmental Cooperation
Commission, the CEC. So I was appointed by the
Federal Minister of Climate Change at the time,
Minister Catherine McKenna, in 2019. So I've
been with them for a few years and reappointed
over the years. I was the chair in 2025 for the
organization, which was fantastic work. And really,
if I were to try and summarize, the work of the
commission is to essentially implement... what
used to be known as NAFTA, right? And now is
known as the USMCA. So those trade agreements
for commercial ties between Mexico, Canada, and
the USA. The understanding was we also have to
look at the environment. We also have to look
at our shared ecosystems because, you know, sustainability,
climate change and all of those environmental
matters don't have borders. And we are more connected
than we're not as as a continent. And so we really
should look at those environmental priorities
in lockstep as countries. The you know, as I'm
sure you can appreciate, it's a different. It's
a different world. Some people refer to it as
a different world order. We'll see where that
takes us. But the USA has withdrawn from a number
of those underpinning agreements, and the USMCA
is on the hot seat, to say the least. So we'll
see what happens next. on the administration
side for all three countries is still very strong.
And the programs that we are leading are still
being implemented. And we still have our public
forums once a year. We have our sessions with
the parties every year as well, where we just
look at the different priorities from the three
countries and hear from the public on what is
top of mind in those three jurisdictions. And
it's the most interesting part because you actually
hear grassroots considerations. I remember, I'll
just give you an example, but a few years ago
we were in Merida in Mexico and we heard a lot
about two things. One was the train Maya that
was being built, which was really at the intersection
of... environmental protection and economic development,
right? So how was that tension going to be worked
out? And obviously now the train, I think, is
still under construction or fully built, and
it is going to be a key economic long for that
region, touristically and otherwise, but it had
to be done under certain conditions. And the
other things that were brought up was agriculture,
intensive agriculture and the use of pesticides.
And also the fact that China was buying a lot
of land in Mexico to have very, very large pork
raising facilities, like cattle facilities, which
as a Canadian, I had no idea. So I think it's
just... to highlight the fact that those organizations
have a critical role to make us aware of what's
happening within our borders and beyond, and
then build those coalitions that sometimes move
the needle just a bit, but it's enough to start
a movement or at least to start improving the
system. Well, thank you for that background.
That'll be informative for all our listeners,
I'm sure. Rob, do you have a final question?
And Raphael, I guess it's unfortunate you can't
make our London summit that's coming up. But
it sounds like you will be reaching out if you
haven't already to foreign investors. We'd love
to have you next year for the fourth annual,
if you're able to make it then. Yeah, I will
put it in my calendar for sure. I'll tell you,
I hadn't heard about that forum. At first, when
Linford did it to me, I thought it was London,
Ontario, just to tell you. Probably as expensive
to get to London, Ontario, as it is to London,
England. Yes, but no, next year, so 2027, I will
be there. Excellent. Of course, we will have
further progress on the project as well. Just
before we wrap up, is there something that we
didn't touch on that you would like to highlight?
No, I think that was excellent. I mean, as you
can tell, I love talking about the Arctic and
love talking about the project. And I'm grateful
always for the opportunity to shine the light
on the work that we do. So just want to say thank
you. Okay, well, it certainly has been fascinating.
Thank you very much for your time today. It's
been great, very intensive, and very informative.
And it's one of the huge economic opportunities
in front of those looking at investing in Canada.
So thank you very much. Yes, yes. Awesome. Okay,
well, thank you so much for your time and for
the opportunity. Okay. Thank you, Tan Raphael
Udwan, for sharing your insights with us. And
thank you for viewing and listening. Mark your
calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit taking
place on the 8th of April. Be sure to share,
subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite
podcast channel. Thanks for listening to Drumbeats.
Until next time.