Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brant
and I are joined today by Anne -Raphael Oudwan,
CEO of Nukic Corporation, the 100 % Inuit -owned
developer behind Canada's most ambitious Arctic
infrastructure project. The territory of Nunavut
is 20 % of Canada's landmass. It has few roads,
no transmission lines, and no physical connection
to the rest of the nation. Every community, every
hospital, every school, and every mine runs entirely
on diesel. 138 million litres of it imported
almost entirely from foreign countries every
single year. Anne Raphael joined NewKick in 2022
to lead the strategic Kivalik Hydrofiber Link,
a $3 billion, 1 ,000 -kilometer transmission
line that would connect the Kivalik region to
the continental grid for the very first time.
In our conversation, you'll discover why Nunavut's
infrastructure deficit is a political problem,
not an engineering problem. You'll also learn
how NewKick became the first Arctic electricity
developer in North America to be certified by
the Mid -Continent Independent System Operator,
MISO, formally establishing Nunavut's pathway
to the continental North American grid. And understand
why the Inuit communities this project will serve
are not waiting patiently. They are telling NewKick
to stop presenting and start building. So, Anne,
Raphael, welcome to our podcast today. Rob and
I are very pleased to have you join Drumbeats
to hear about what Nukic and your team there
is up to because it's very exciting news. Yeah,
and Raphael, thanks for joining us and taking
the time to talk about your big project. Thanks
for having me. As you know, our listeners are
mostly in the UK and continental Europe. So we
would love for you to introduce the corporation
a little bit. Some of them may not have heard
of it. And tell us a little about yourself and
about the Inuit ownership structure. And, of
course, about the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link that
you're trying to achieve. And, of course, the
Arctic's on the radar these days. So that's great.
Yes, absolutely. So look, I'll start by describing
a bit of our work in the Arctic and then narrow
it down to the project. I think it's important
to know that the Nunavut Arctic is very different
from any other Arctic regions that you could
work in, that you could live in, in the rest
of the world. Canada, despite having the second
largest Arctic border in the world, really hasn't
developed much of its Arctic over the years.
So when you look at countries like maybe Sweden,
Finland, or Russia, they have very developed
infrastructure well past the Arctic Circle. Whereas
if you look at a Canadian map and you consider
what's been built, especially Nunavut, it's really
zero. So very important to understand that Nunavut
is 20 % of Canada's landmass. It's a huge jurisdiction.
It's Canada's largest jurisdiction. And yet it's
completely isolated. So there's no road, there's
no transmission line, no bridge connecting Nunavut
to the rest of the nation. Now you can imagine
what that creates. It hinders progress. It hinders
commercial development, social ties. this territory
into the societal and economic makeup of the
country. And also, it has just kept the territory
behind in terms of accessing very basic infrastructure
services. So that is the lay of the land. Now,
Canada, in terms of its jurisdictions, there
are provinces and there are territories. Territories
are a bit different than provinces in the sense
that they come with a bigger responsibility for
the federal government. And so the way we approach
a project like the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link is
really to say that this is akin to a public service
type of project because, you know, and we'll
talk about it, I'm sure, but because of the population
base, which is not very large, and the high capital
cost of any infrastructure build out in that
region, you really have to have a strong participation
from the federal government. And that is a key
piece of the puzzle in understanding how we work
in the Arctic, is to understand that we have
to work very much in lockstep with the Canadian
federal government. Now, Nuki Corporation was
formed in 2021, so it's maturing, but it's still
a young entity. It was created by the Kivalik
Inuit Association, which is the elected government
body of that region of Nunavut. There are three
regions in Nunavut. which have their own elected
governments and their associated development
corporations, which are essentially the business
development arms of those Inuit associations.
So in 2021, the Kivalik Inuit Association realized
that they just could not lead a project of the
scale and size of the Kivalik Hydrofiberlink
on their own. And they needed to incorporate
with everything that that entails and would.
would open in terms of opportunities and reach,
etc. So Nuki Corporation was created at that
time under 100 % Inuit ownership. So the Kivalik
Inuit... association owns 51 % of Nukic and then
their development corporation, Saku Investments
Corporation owns 49 % of Nukic. And that's the
beating heart of the organization that I'm the
CEO of. That's the beating heart of the Kivalik
Hydrofiber Link because every decision that we
make is guided by our board of directors, which
is made up of... from the Kivalik region. And
they hold that vision. They give us direction.
They advise us as a new board. And that's what's
been, you know, the constitution really of the
organization, but also what's taken the project
to this stage now, which is active development.
Thank you for that. Can you just go back and
explain about the establishment of Nunavut? Because
one of the reasons, I mean, when we talk about
underdeveloped, the underdevelopment that's taking
place, which is, you know, just absolutely terrible
when we hear about this. And you're right, because
living over here, when I think of northern nations,
historically, I've never thought of Canada as
a northern country. You think of the Scandinavian
countries, Norway, because they live and breathe.
Most Canadians don't live and breathe it. And
these issues come up and it's a disgrace. the
state of the territory when it was handed over.
But can you talk a bit about the establishment
of that? Yeah, I mean, that's fascinating, right?
And not all of it is fascinating for good reasons,
as you said, but we have to acknowledge it. And
I think, again, to go back to what I said earlier,
it is very unique what's happened in Nunavut,
both in terms of its creation, but also how young
the territory is. So maybe, you know, a good
place to start is just you know, the 50s and
what happened because I work in the energy space
and telecommunication space. And that's when
a lot of those systems were actually, you know,
implemented and delivered into those communities.
So essentially, and for the sake of time, I'm
really going to simplify what happened, but people
need to understand that this is a long written
history that has spanned really multiple centuries,
taken us to this stage now. But in the 50s and
60s, The federal government essentially colonized
the Arctic and to assert Arctic sovereignty relied
on the few people that were living there. However,
Inuit people by tradition and by culture were
nomadic people. And so they could not be, quote
unquote, relied on to assert Arctic sovereignty
at a given spot. And so what happened at the
time was quite terrible because the federal government
of those days, in some cases, created artificial
settlements, artificial hamlets. And to keep
Inuit people in those settlements, they took
away their dogs, which were their traditional
ways of, you know, going around, following the
caribou herds, hunting, going fishing in the
springtime and summertime. they took and slaughtered
those dogs so that Inuit people could not exercise
their nomadic lifestyle anymore and they would
essentially be landlocked, which worked. You
know, people stayed, people created lives, had
children in those settlements. And they are now,
you know, those 25 hamlets that we know of in
Nunavut. And some are historic, you know, settlements
that were used on a rotating basis during the
seasons. Some were created during the 50s and
60s mining activities and some were purely artificial,
again, because of what happened with colonization.
And this is well documented. This is something
fairly tragic, clearly, that's happened. And
the second part of that story is once you tell
people that they have to stay in a given place,
you have to give them the basic ways to survive,
right? And so when Inuit people were nomadic,
they would... as we all know, live in igloos
in the winter times under, you know, tents in
the summertime. Very harsh living conditions,
but they were very resilient people. And they
had lived there for millennia, so they knew their
way around. Once they had to be in those hamlets
and stay there, obviously lifestyle changed.
And so the federal government gave them diesel
plants. At the time, the decision was not made
to connect them to any kind of infrastructure
because distances were far and long in between.
Cost was already a consideration. And also, if
you consider a hamlet like Ranking Inlet, that's
now close to 5 ,000 people on the west shore
of the Hudson Bay. In the 50s or 60s, it was
probably 500 people. So the analysis of the cost
benefit was, as you can imagine, people just
decided at the time that it was not worth it
to create and extend a grid connection, road
connection, you know, the basic infrastructure
that would keep people there. So they did the
bare minimum. And that bare minimum was to provide
diesel engines that in some communities are still
the ones that are being used now, right? So they've
been... overhauled a few times, refurbished a
few times, but they are, first of all, in the
center of those hamlets. Diesel plants in Nunavut
are not a few kilometers away from downtown.
They are your direct neighbor. I live in Rankingen
myself, and I see the fumes from the diesel plants.
That's the first thing I see every morning when
I open my curtains, and that's the first thing
we smell in the air when we go outside. That's
the very real reality of living in the Arctic.
And obviously, I think we all know that in 1999,
the territory reached... the territory of Nunavut
was created. And so it's adolescent still. Up
until 1999, it was under the Northwest Territories.
And so the Northwest Territories Power Corporation
was managing those assets. Jurisdictionally,
it was one extremely large territory. And then
it was split in two with NWT and then the creation
of Nunavut, as I said, in 1999. It's still maturing
through a lot of its own legislation. Devolution,
as we know, is now happening. And I think it's
really ripe for a major economic boom just due
to the sheer population growth. Nunavut has one
of the youngest population in the whole of Canada.
Some hamlets actually in Nunavut have the youngest
population in the whole of Canada. And culturally...
In terms of their abilities also, it's very rich.
It just has a lot to contribute to our Canadian
economy. Now, what's keeping it behind is the
lack of infrastructure. Well, thank you for that
background, which I think is very helpful. And
it talks about the economic opportunity that's
now in front of everyone, all Canadians, because
the Arctic... We've got here for the wrong reasons,
but now that we're here with people like you
and the organizations, the Inuit organizations
behind and what needs to be done, there's a huge
opportunity. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And
Rafael, I'm interested in your story too. How
long have you been involved and what's your background?
How did you get to be working in Canada's far
north with the Inuit as you are? Yeah, I mean,
I think it's like any career, you know, you happenstance
to a degree and then being at the right time
in the right place. I'm an environmental, you
know, legal specialist by background and specialized
in natural resources management. So started my
career working in the mining sector in the field
in Western Africa and worked on a variety of
projects. And then worked in the hydropower sector
for quite a few years. I represented the National
Industry Association that represents all of the
hydropower generators in Canada and their suppliers
of goods and services. And then I think I just
wanted to really touch and feel a project. Because
when you're a consultant or when you're on a
large scope of the advisory services, You do
get to work on very exciting undertakings, but
it goes very fast and it's never yours to lead
from cradle to gate. And so I had this opportunity
to work on the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link. I joined
the organization in 2022. And I will say it's
like moving a big boulder up a mountain to move
big projects like that because... It's a $3 billion
capital cost project. It's a 1 ,000 -kilometer
transmission line that we're trying to build
in a region where Canada is a bit of a mental
block when it comes to building in that region.
And I also completely overhauled the corporation
so that we have three distinct divisions now
looking after the different services that we
want to offer from generation, transmission,
and energy consulting services. So it's been
busy, but I'll tell you, I think it's what's
really exciting and maybe it's a call for action
for young professionals who are looking for exciting
areas of work and also geographically. It's one
of those areas and maybe one of those last places
in the world where it's a blank piece of paper.
Everything needs to be invented from roads to
transmission networks to... probably working
on legislation and supporting Inuit in maturing
through that new ownership and territory that
has been created just 25 years ago. So there's
still a lot of work to be done in supporting
them. And I find that that's very satisfying
intellectually, but also on a personal level,
you feel like you're contributing a little drop
in that ocean. And it's always something that
in a career is motivating. Yeah, I can imagine.
And you've been involved in the far north even
before it was cool to be involved in the far
north as it does today. It's always cool, Rob.
Yeah, I think I caught that train at the right
moment before a certain president in the U .S.
started claiming ownership stakes over... over
the arctic far and wide and um yeah it's it's
definitely talked about a lot now i mean all
of us in in none of it really say that it's long
overdue in terms of paying attention and and
quite frankly as well the amount that it's being
talked about is still nowhere near um you know
what's required in terms of realizing that it's
a critical part of this country making sure Canadians
understand and know about Nunavut. You know,
very few people know that the statistics I gave
you, right? Like three different regions, three
different time zones in Nunavut created in 1999.
You know, the possibilities, the fact that it's
completely isolated. There's a Nunavut 101 that
is missing from the Canadian curriculum that
I hope is going to, you know, my work, other
people's work is going to start emulating a bit.
Yes. And coming back to the diesel with 140 million,
I think, liters of diesel and it's all imported.
Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. Staggering. You know, when
I started working on the Kivalik hydrofiber link,
we didn't have a lot of data because, again,
the project was still fairly new. It had been
pushed at some points by the federal governments,
at other points by the province of Manitoba,
other times by the territory of Nunavut. But
really, it was articulated around the idea of
becoming connected and, you know, that almost
romanticized idea of being part of the country.
And then when I came on board, you know, I really
identified that we needed to drill into the numbers.
We really needed to understand what vulnerabilities
we had, what opportunities were associated with
those, and how we could leverage our strengths.
And so that 138 million liters of diesel fuel
that is being shipped and barged into the Kivalik
region every year is very real and it's going
up and up and up. Because what you have to realize
is that that specific region is very active in
terms of industrial development. So there are
two active mines that burn more than the entire
region together. And there's no other way to
bring fuel into the Arctic than by barge. And
so you have to imagine those ships coming in
as soon as the ice melts in June up until early
October. And it's an ecological catastrophe waiting
to happen. I think it's a small miracle that
nothing on a large scale has ever happened. And
I fully realize that a degree of... diesel shipment
will always need to happen in the Arctic because
you will always need diesel for backup generation
up until a point where maybe you have backup
local baseload generation. But at least for the
next few decades, it's still going to need to
happen. But there are very real pathways to reduce
that risk and to not only reduce the risk, but
also create new economic opportunities for the
region. That is one key motivating factor for
all of us, is to reduce the amount of diesel
that's burnt in Nunavut. And one other key statistic
that we find out, really, as we started working
on the project, we reached out to the government
of Nunavut, their petroleum products division,
and we asked the origin of that diesel. And we
were expecting it to be mostly Canadian. But
the numbers came back that most years, 100 %
of all the diesel that we burn that comes from
foreign countries, mostly the US. So not only
do we burn diesel for every single part of our
lives in Nunavut, but it's not even Canadian
diesel. And then because I work on telecommunication
as well, because the Kivalik HydrofiberLink would
bring also fiber optic, we also got data on how
we support telecommunications. And it's mostly
all supported by Starlink right now. which is
amazing technology. It works really well. It
has transformed the way we can do business. Just
over the last three years, I've seen it's night
and day in terms of connectivity. So we welcome
it. But the problem is it's not Canadian technology.
So you really have into such a strategic region.
an enormous Achilles heel, you're heading into
a wall with no optionality because optionality
takes a long time and it takes large investments.
A project such as the Kivalik Hydrofiberlink
would create a domestically owned and operated
infrastructure backbone into that strategic region
of the Nunavut Arctic. And it's not going to
resolve everything on its own, but it's a critical
piece of putting all of those foundational blocks
together. That is fascinating. But when you talk
about those risks, forget who it is. It's not
Canadian. The federal government's eyes have
been closed, who've been responsible for the
territory, and those who vote them in haven't
raised these issues. But when you think of the
risk that now comes to fruit in this world that
we live in, we have given control, effective
control, to non -Canadians. Whether the dealers
come from New Zealand or America, it doesn't
make a difference. You know, we're not in control.
And given how much Canada is defined by the North,
geographically, in terms of size of territory,
you know, we don't have the right military presence.
We don't have the right infrastructure and huge
challenges and opportunities in front of us.
That's a fascinating background. Yeah, and I
think it's what you realize as well. And look,
we could go pretty deep in that rabbit hole in
terms of the shortfallings of some of those decisions
over the years. But once you give away... those
pieces of sovereignty, it's very hard to reclaim
it. And that's what every day I'm confronted
with, just pushing that project forward. And
I know that there are other people in Nunavut
and elsewhere in the other territories trying
to move very worthy projects forward. And what
we are faced with is really the fact that...
it becomes status quo, right? It becomes the
fait accompli, the way things are and why change
them because it's kind of, it's humming and puffing,
but it's working, right? And then people do the
math and they're like, okay, for our project,
for example, you know, 3 billion capex for 16
,000 people, you know, it's difficult to justify.
So you really have to understand it for all the
things that you've said, which is, it has to
be driven by a bigger aspiration to really reclaim
who we are, which is we are an Arctic nation.
We're not just neighbors to an Arctic nation.
We're not just going there for research and sending
a few, you know, museum, you know, northern ecologists
to, you know, walk on the tundra every summertime.
You know, this should be something. Yeah, but,
you know, there's so much more to it and people
are calling for this kind of infrastructure.
And that's the other piece maybe that I should
highlight is because of the Inuit ownership.
You couldn't hope for a better social license.
People want this infrastructure. There will be
probably, you know, a stop on the road where
they say no more mining, you know, or we don't
want this infrastructure here or there when,
you know, I'm talking 20, 30, 40 years. But the
markers right now are very much connect us to
the continental grid, which Nukic has done. You
know, we have a MISO certification. We are the
first and only. Arctic electricity developer
to have been certified by a regional transmission
organization in the US, which is a major, major
accomplishment. And we're ready to go. So the
communities, every time we go in and we do our
community engagement tours, communities tell
us to not come back until we've actually started
building something. They're getting frustrated
with us for not, you know, going faster and delivering
this asset. Where else in Canada do you have
this, right? Like that's the other piece of the
puzzle that... It needs to be reconciled. You
really have a jurisdiction that is going to welcome
you with open arms, and yet you cannot bring
yourself as a country to do it. So just to interrupt
there for a second, that MISO certification is
equivalent over here, I understand, to the ENSO
- technical certification for interconnector
projects between the UK and continental Europe.
So it's very similar in terms of what has been
achieved, but you're right, it's a huge opportunity.
Let's get a little bit into the detail of the
project, but I have this question, and this is
not one of the key projects that has been identified
yet for the National Projects Office to get.
What is the background to that? Why? Why not?
I mean, you're not the person to be asking that.
That should be going to the prime minister and
his team. Because this seems to hit all the right
markers. Yeah, you're going to get me in trouble
here, Mark, by becoming a bit political in my
statements. But it remains to be seen. With the
major project office, right? Like I think the
government is still new. It's going on its first
birthday, meaning the Mark Carney government.
And within the first few months of his new government,
he implemented and launched the Build Canada
Act and then the major project office. And the
idea, again, for maybe listeners who are not
in Canada, may not know the context. Mark Carney
really identified that Canada was very bureaucracy
heavy in its process for major projects, be it
pipelines, be it railway, be it transmission
lines, local generation, etc. We were just not
efficient. Despite having all the resources and
all the brainpower, we could not get those over
the finish line. He created the MPO stating that
he would fast track projects that were deemed
to be in the national interest. That identification
of being in the national interest is based on
five criteria. Some of them are, you know, have
to benefit Indigenous communities, has to benefit
climate, has to be obviously in the national
interest of the country from a sovereignty and
national security perspective, and a couple of
others. When the legislation came out, I think
we probably were one of the first proponents
to write to Prime Minister Carney and say, bingo,
we meet and exceed every one of those five criteria.
And I was quite happy to see that happen because
I had been for years calling out the federal
government for the red tape that it was putting
project proponents under. And the fact that,
again, despite having all of the cards in hand,
we could not play and win that game, right? We
were just standing in our own way, which is something
that a lot of observers and a lot of people are
saying about Canada. And then we didn't hear
anything, but we saw the projects being listed
and referred to the major project office while
we were just standing by and hoping to be housed
under this new system, which is really the way
I view it. At the end of the day, it might still
be a new... bureaucracy, reframed and relabeled.
But I see it as a house where you can have a
whole of government approach and really have
experts, financial energy experts, you know,
looking at your project and telling you, okay,
this is how we're going to crack the code on
making it happen, especially in the Arctic, they're
so complex. And we're still in that, you know,
dance, I would say with the federal government
where they're trying to see how set such an undertaking
could go. If we were $500 million type of project,
we would already have been referred. So I'm just
telling you a little secret here, but it's 100
% because of the CapEx. And until we find a way
to get those major projects done under what I
said, you know, at the beginning of the call
under public service framework, and stop analyzing
them as you know, having to have an economic
backbone of their own, which they never will.
They're never going to be economical on their
own just because there aren't the rate base.
None of it is 40 ,000 people. How are you going
to justify the multi -billion dollars worth of
investment that's required to bring those people
the level of infrastructure that they deserve?
It's just not going to work. So until you have
leaders who accept that. Just accepting it. Then
you can have the creative thinking and the wheels
in motion to say, okay, well, we are going to
do green bonds. We are going to do, you know,
social credits. We are going to do all of the
things that are in the toolbox that Canada never
really leveraged on international platforms,
but that international investors would be very
interested in if there was the backstopping of
the federal government. The last thing I'll say
is the federal government is very good at asking
proponents to have skin in the game. They're
not very good at putting their own skin in the
game. And so time will tell if they're putting
their, you know, if they're walking the talk.
Thank you to Anne -Raphael Oudwan for sharing
her insights with us. And thank you for viewing
and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming
2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April.
Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review
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listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.