WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.069 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:05.730 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.730 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.089 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.949 --> 00:00:15.849 I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brant 00:00:15.849 --> 00:00:18.309 and I are joined today by Anne -Raphael Oudwan, 00:00:18.469 --> 00:00:23.109 CEO of Nukic Corporation, the 100 % Inuit -owned 00:00:23.109 --> 00:00:26.230 developer behind Canada's most ambitious Arctic 00:00:26.230 --> 00:00:29.890 infrastructure project. The territory of Nunavut 00:00:29.890 --> 00:00:34.570 is 20 % of Canada's landmass. It has few roads, 00:00:34.770 --> 00:00:38.070 no transmission lines, and no physical connection 00:00:38.070 --> 00:00:42.130 to the rest of the nation. Every community, every 00:00:42.130 --> 00:00:46.710 hospital, every school, and every mine runs entirely 00:00:46.710 --> 00:00:52.070 on diesel. 138 million litres of it imported 00:00:52.070 --> 00:00:55.850 almost entirely from foreign countries every 00:00:55.850 --> 00:01:00.700 single year. Anne Raphael joined NewKick in 2022 00:01:00.700 --> 00:01:04.579 to lead the strategic Kivalik Hydrofiber Link, 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:08.379 a $3 billion, 1 ,000 -kilometer transmission 00:01:08.379 --> 00:01:11.299 line that would connect the Kivalik region to 00:01:11.299 --> 00:01:13.959 the continental grid for the very first time. 00:01:14.260 --> 00:01:17.480 In our conversation, you'll discover why Nunavut's 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:19.840 infrastructure deficit is a political problem, 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.379 not an engineering problem. You'll also learn 00:01:23.379 --> 00:01:26.120 how NewKick became the first Arctic electricity 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.219 developer in North America to be certified by 00:01:29.219 --> 00:01:31.719 the Mid -Continent Independent System Operator, 00:01:31.739 --> 00:01:34.700 MISO, formally establishing Nunavut's pathway 00:01:34.700 --> 00:01:38.099 to the continental North American grid. And understand 00:01:38.099 --> 00:01:41.040 why the Inuit communities this project will serve 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.060 are not waiting patiently. They are telling NewKick 00:01:44.060 --> 00:01:48.689 to stop presenting and start building. So, Anne, 00:01:48.890 --> 00:01:51.810 Raphael, welcome to our podcast today. Rob and 00:01:51.810 --> 00:01:55.250 I are very pleased to have you join Drumbeats 00:01:55.250 --> 00:02:00.750 to hear about what Nukic and your team there 00:02:00.750 --> 00:02:04.650 is up to because it's very exciting news. Yeah, 00:02:04.650 --> 00:02:06.829 and Raphael, thanks for joining us and taking 00:02:06.829 --> 00:02:11.710 the time to talk about your big project. Thanks 00:02:11.710 --> 00:02:16.550 for having me. As you know, our listeners are 00:02:16.550 --> 00:02:18.949 mostly in the UK and continental Europe. So we 00:02:18.949 --> 00:02:22.129 would love for you to introduce the corporation 00:02:22.129 --> 00:02:24.530 a little bit. Some of them may not have heard 00:02:24.530 --> 00:02:27.289 of it. And tell us a little about yourself and 00:02:27.289 --> 00:02:30.710 about the Inuit ownership structure. And, of 00:02:30.710 --> 00:02:34.150 course, about the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link that 00:02:34.150 --> 00:02:36.610 you're trying to achieve. And, of course, the 00:02:36.610 --> 00:02:39.629 Arctic's on the radar these days. So that's great. 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:45.229 Yes, absolutely. So look, I'll start by describing 00:02:45.229 --> 00:02:49.129 a bit of our work in the Arctic and then narrow 00:02:49.129 --> 00:02:52.590 it down to the project. I think it's important 00:02:52.590 --> 00:02:56.389 to know that the Nunavut Arctic is very different 00:02:56.389 --> 00:02:59.189 from any other Arctic regions that you could 00:02:59.189 --> 00:03:01.530 work in, that you could live in, in the rest 00:03:01.530 --> 00:03:04.770 of the world. Canada, despite having the second 00:03:04.770 --> 00:03:07.750 largest Arctic border in the world, really hasn't 00:03:07.750 --> 00:03:10.069 developed much of its Arctic over the years. 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:13.849 So when you look at countries like maybe Sweden, 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:19.490 Finland, or Russia, they have very developed 00:03:19.490 --> 00:03:23.909 infrastructure well past the Arctic Circle. Whereas 00:03:23.909 --> 00:03:26.370 if you look at a Canadian map and you consider 00:03:26.370 --> 00:03:30.389 what's been built, especially Nunavut, it's really 00:03:30.389 --> 00:03:34.610 zero. So very important to understand that Nunavut 00:03:34.610 --> 00:03:38.909 is 20 % of Canada's landmass. It's a huge jurisdiction. 00:03:39.069 --> 00:03:42.530 It's Canada's largest jurisdiction. And yet it's 00:03:42.530 --> 00:03:45.569 completely isolated. So there's no road, there's 00:03:45.569 --> 00:03:48.830 no transmission line, no bridge connecting Nunavut 00:03:48.830 --> 00:03:52.210 to the rest of the nation. Now you can imagine 00:03:52.210 --> 00:03:56.129 what that creates. It hinders progress. It hinders 00:03:56.129 --> 00:04:02.879 commercial development, social ties. this territory 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:05.740 into the societal and economic makeup of the 00:04:05.740 --> 00:04:09.819 country. And also, it has just kept the territory 00:04:09.819 --> 00:04:12.939 behind in terms of accessing very basic infrastructure 00:04:12.939 --> 00:04:17.379 services. So that is the lay of the land. Now, 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:21.500 Canada, in terms of its jurisdictions, there 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:24.560 are provinces and there are territories. Territories 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.839 are a bit different than provinces in the sense 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.540 that they come with a bigger responsibility for 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:33.920 the federal government. And so the way we approach 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:37.019 a project like the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link is 00:04:37.019 --> 00:04:40.079 really to say that this is akin to a public service 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.560 type of project because, you know, and we'll 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.220 talk about it, I'm sure, but because of the population 00:04:46.220 --> 00:04:50.000 base, which is not very large, and the high capital 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.800 cost of any infrastructure build out in that 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.660 region, you really have to have a strong participation 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:59.279 from the federal government. And that is a key 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.879 piece of the puzzle in understanding how we work 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:05.000 in the Arctic, is to understand that we have 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.420 to work very much in lockstep with the Canadian 00:05:07.420 --> 00:05:11.500 federal government. Now, Nuki Corporation was 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:15.240 formed in 2021, so it's maturing, but it's still 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:19.040 a young entity. It was created by the Kivalik 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.899 Inuit Association, which is the elected government 00:05:21.899 --> 00:05:25.300 body of that region of Nunavut. There are three 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:28.839 regions in Nunavut. which have their own elected 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.019 governments and their associated development 00:05:31.019 --> 00:05:33.740 corporations, which are essentially the business 00:05:33.740 --> 00:05:36.720 development arms of those Inuit associations. 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:41.019 So in 2021, the Kivalik Inuit Association realized 00:05:41.019 --> 00:05:45.420 that they just could not lead a project of the 00:05:45.420 --> 00:05:48.279 scale and size of the Kivalik Hydrofiberlink 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:50.699 on their own. And they needed to incorporate 00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:53.800 with everything that that entails and would. 00:05:54.110 --> 00:05:56.209 would open in terms of opportunities and reach, 00:05:56.410 --> 00:05:59.689 etc. So Nuki Corporation was created at that 00:05:59.689 --> 00:06:04.250 time under 100 % Inuit ownership. So the Kivalik 00:06:04.250 --> 00:06:08.779 Inuit... association owns 51 % of Nukic and then 00:06:08.779 --> 00:06:11.279 their development corporation, Saku Investments 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.899 Corporation owns 49 % of Nukic. And that's the 00:06:14.899 --> 00:06:17.620 beating heart of the organization that I'm the 00:06:17.620 --> 00:06:21.319 CEO of. That's the beating heart of the Kivalik 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:23.699 Hydrofiber Link because every decision that we 00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:26.920 make is guided by our board of directors, which 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:31.379 is made up of... from the Kivalik region. And 00:06:31.379 --> 00:06:33.540 they hold that vision. They give us direction. 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:37.800 They advise us as a new board. And that's what's 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:41.060 been, you know, the constitution really of the 00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:45.519 organization, but also what's taken the project 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.040 to this stage now, which is active development. 00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:52.060 Thank you for that. Can you just go back and 00:06:52.060 --> 00:06:55.610 explain about the establishment of Nunavut? Because 00:06:55.610 --> 00:06:58.490 one of the reasons, I mean, when we talk about 00:06:58.490 --> 00:07:01.170 underdeveloped, the underdevelopment that's taking 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:04.790 place, which is, you know, just absolutely terrible 00:07:04.790 --> 00:07:08.110 when we hear about this. And you're right, because 00:07:08.110 --> 00:07:10.970 living over here, when I think of northern nations, 00:07:11.170 --> 00:07:13.389 historically, I've never thought of Canada as 00:07:13.389 --> 00:07:14.990 a northern country. You think of the Scandinavian 00:07:14.990 --> 00:07:18.089 countries, Norway, because they live and breathe. 00:07:18.370 --> 00:07:20.649 Most Canadians don't live and breathe it. And 00:07:20.649 --> 00:07:24.490 these issues come up and it's a disgrace. the 00:07:24.490 --> 00:07:26.689 state of the territory when it was handed over. 00:07:26.790 --> 00:07:28.829 But can you talk a bit about the establishment 00:07:28.829 --> 00:07:33.689 of that? Yeah, I mean, that's fascinating, right? 00:07:33.850 --> 00:07:36.250 And not all of it is fascinating for good reasons, 00:07:36.350 --> 00:07:38.930 as you said, but we have to acknowledge it. And 00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:41.990 I think, again, to go back to what I said earlier, 00:07:42.230 --> 00:07:44.930 it is very unique what's happened in Nunavut, 00:07:45.009 --> 00:07:47.610 both in terms of its creation, but also how young 00:07:47.610 --> 00:07:51.949 the territory is. So maybe, you know, a good 00:07:51.949 --> 00:07:54.879 place to start is just you know, the 50s and 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:57.540 what happened because I work in the energy space 00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:00.199 and telecommunication space. And that's when 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:02.699 a lot of those systems were actually, you know, 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.939 implemented and delivered into those communities. 00:08:05.379 --> 00:08:09.259 So essentially, and for the sake of time, I'm 00:08:09.259 --> 00:08:12.399 really going to simplify what happened, but people 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:14.920 need to understand that this is a long written 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:17.860 history that has spanned really multiple centuries, 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:21.040 taken us to this stage now. But in the 50s and 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:25.699 60s, The federal government essentially colonized 00:08:25.699 --> 00:08:30.339 the Arctic and to assert Arctic sovereignty relied 00:08:30.339 --> 00:08:33.580 on the few people that were living there. However, 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.840 Inuit people by tradition and by culture were 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:42.679 nomadic people. And so they could not be, quote 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:44.899 unquote, relied on to assert Arctic sovereignty 00:08:44.899 --> 00:08:47.960 at a given spot. And so what happened at the 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:50.320 time was quite terrible because the federal government 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.720 of those days, in some cases, created artificial 00:08:54.720 --> 00:09:00.299 settlements, artificial hamlets. And to keep 00:09:00.299 --> 00:09:03.179 Inuit people in those settlements, they took 00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:06.299 away their dogs, which were their traditional 00:09:06.299 --> 00:09:09.600 ways of, you know, going around, following the 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.740 caribou herds, hunting, going fishing in the 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:16.240 springtime and summertime. they took and slaughtered 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.480 those dogs so that Inuit people could not exercise 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.120 their nomadic lifestyle anymore and they would 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.740 essentially be landlocked, which worked. You 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:32.100 know, people stayed, people created lives, had 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:36.049 children in those settlements. And they are now, 00:09:36.129 --> 00:09:39.629 you know, those 25 hamlets that we know of in 00:09:39.629 --> 00:09:42.669 Nunavut. And some are historic, you know, settlements 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:45.970 that were used on a rotating basis during the 00:09:45.970 --> 00:09:49.009 seasons. Some were created during the 50s and 00:09:49.009 --> 00:09:51.629 60s mining activities and some were purely artificial, 00:09:51.830 --> 00:09:54.509 again, because of what happened with colonization. 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:58.879 And this is well documented. This is something 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.559 fairly tragic, clearly, that's happened. And 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:05.620 the second part of that story is once you tell 00:10:05.620 --> 00:10:08.379 people that they have to stay in a given place, 00:10:08.460 --> 00:10:11.879 you have to give them the basic ways to survive, 00:10:12.179 --> 00:10:15.220 right? And so when Inuit people were nomadic, 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.350 they would... as we all know, live in igloos 00:10:18.350 --> 00:10:21.250 in the winter times under, you know, tents in 00:10:21.250 --> 00:10:24.649 the summertime. Very harsh living conditions, 00:10:24.789 --> 00:10:27.490 but they were very resilient people. And they 00:10:27.490 --> 00:10:29.809 had lived there for millennia, so they knew their 00:10:29.809 --> 00:10:34.889 way around. Once they had to be in those hamlets 00:10:34.889 --> 00:10:37.870 and stay there, obviously lifestyle changed. 00:10:38.110 --> 00:10:40.029 And so the federal government gave them diesel 00:10:40.029 --> 00:10:44.460 plants. At the time, the decision was not made 00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:46.679 to connect them to any kind of infrastructure 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.200 because distances were far and long in between. 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:55.039 Cost was already a consideration. And also, if 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:59.139 you consider a hamlet like Ranking Inlet, that's 00:10:59.139 --> 00:11:02.519 now close to 5 ,000 people on the west shore 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.720 of the Hudson Bay. In the 50s or 60s, it was 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:11.360 probably 500 people. So the analysis of the cost 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:15.960 benefit was, as you can imagine, people just 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:17.860 decided at the time that it was not worth it 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:20.600 to create and extend a grid connection, road 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.879 connection, you know, the basic infrastructure 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:25.980 that would keep people there. So they did the 00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:29.460 bare minimum. And that bare minimum was to provide 00:11:29.460 --> 00:11:33.799 diesel engines that in some communities are still 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.480 the ones that are being used now, right? So they've 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.340 been... overhauled a few times, refurbished a 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:42.139 few times, but they are, first of all, in the 00:11:42.139 --> 00:11:45.340 center of those hamlets. Diesel plants in Nunavut 00:11:45.340 --> 00:11:47.879 are not a few kilometers away from downtown. 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.720 They are your direct neighbor. I live in Rankingen 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.299 myself, and I see the fumes from the diesel plants. 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:56.000 That's the first thing I see every morning when 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.379 I open my curtains, and that's the first thing 00:11:58.379 --> 00:12:02.840 we smell in the air when we go outside. That's 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:05.700 the very real reality of living in the Arctic. 00:12:07.349 --> 00:12:10.429 And obviously, I think we all know that in 1999, 00:12:10.990 --> 00:12:18.000 the territory reached... the territory of Nunavut 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.639 was created. And so it's adolescent still. Up 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.980 until 1999, it was under the Northwest Territories. 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.740 And so the Northwest Territories Power Corporation 00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:32.019 was managing those assets. Jurisdictionally, 00:12:32.019 --> 00:12:35.059 it was one extremely large territory. And then 00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:38.220 it was split in two with NWT and then the creation 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:43.679 of Nunavut, as I said, in 1999. It's still maturing 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:45.879 through a lot of its own legislation. Devolution, 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:50.620 as we know, is now happening. And I think it's 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:55.980 really ripe for a major economic boom just due 00:12:55.980 --> 00:13:00.659 to the sheer population growth. Nunavut has one 00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:03.279 of the youngest population in the whole of Canada. 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:06.460 Some hamlets actually in Nunavut have the youngest 00:13:06.460 --> 00:13:10.259 population in the whole of Canada. And culturally... 00:13:12.099 --> 00:13:16.639 In terms of their abilities also, it's very rich. 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:18.919 It just has a lot to contribute to our Canadian 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.820 economy. Now, what's keeping it behind is the 00:13:22.820 --> 00:13:26.139 lack of infrastructure. Well, thank you for that 00:13:26.139 --> 00:13:28.980 background, which I think is very helpful. And 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:33.279 it talks about the economic opportunity that's 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:37.600 now in front of everyone, all Canadians, because 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.740 the Arctic... We've got here for the wrong reasons, 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:44.120 but now that we're here with people like you 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.059 and the organizations, the Inuit organizations 00:13:46.059 --> 00:13:49.559 behind and what needs to be done, there's a huge 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:53.899 opportunity. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And 00:13:53.899 --> 00:13:56.200 Rafael, I'm interested in your story too. How 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.139 long have you been involved and what's your background? 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:05.500 How did you get to be working in Canada's far 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:11.519 north with the Inuit as you are? Yeah, I mean, 00:14:11.539 --> 00:14:15.559 I think it's like any career, you know, you happenstance 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.279 to a degree and then being at the right time 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:23.799 in the right place. I'm an environmental, you 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.960 know, legal specialist by background and specialized 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.779 in natural resources management. So started my 00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:34.659 career working in the mining sector in the field 00:14:34.659 --> 00:14:38.379 in Western Africa and worked on a variety of 00:14:38.379 --> 00:14:43.009 projects. And then worked in the hydropower sector 00:14:43.009 --> 00:14:45.950 for quite a few years. I represented the National 00:14:45.950 --> 00:14:48.389 Industry Association that represents all of the 00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:51.169 hydropower generators in Canada and their suppliers 00:14:51.169 --> 00:14:54.529 of goods and services. And then I think I just 00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:59.850 wanted to really touch and feel a project. Because 00:14:59.850 --> 00:15:02.049 when you're a consultant or when you're on a 00:15:02.049 --> 00:15:06.720 large scope of the advisory services, You do 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.820 get to work on very exciting undertakings, but 00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:13.480 it goes very fast and it's never yours to lead 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.740 from cradle to gate. And so I had this opportunity 00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:20.960 to work on the Kivalik Hydrofiber Link. I joined 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.419 the organization in 2022. And I will say it's 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:28.139 like moving a big boulder up a mountain to move 00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:31.820 big projects like that because... It's a $3 billion 00:15:31.820 --> 00:15:35.120 capital cost project. It's a 1 ,000 -kilometer 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:36.980 transmission line that we're trying to build 00:15:36.980 --> 00:15:40.259 in a region where Canada is a bit of a mental 00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:43.399 block when it comes to building in that region. 00:15:44.139 --> 00:15:47.100 And I also completely overhauled the corporation 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:49.919 so that we have three distinct divisions now 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.179 looking after the different services that we 00:15:52.179 --> 00:15:54.240 want to offer from generation, transmission, 00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.190 and energy consulting services. So it's been 00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:03.830 busy, but I'll tell you, I think it's what's 00:16:03.830 --> 00:16:05.850 really exciting and maybe it's a call for action 00:16:05.850 --> 00:16:09.610 for young professionals who are looking for exciting 00:16:09.610 --> 00:16:14.789 areas of work and also geographically. It's one 00:16:14.789 --> 00:16:18.210 of those areas and maybe one of those last places 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:20.549 in the world where it's a blank piece of paper. 00:16:20.889 --> 00:16:24.490 Everything needs to be invented from roads to 00:16:24.490 --> 00:16:27.549 transmission networks to... probably working 00:16:27.549 --> 00:16:30.409 on legislation and supporting Inuit in maturing 00:16:30.409 --> 00:16:34.909 through that new ownership and territory that 00:16:34.909 --> 00:16:38.190 has been created just 25 years ago. So there's 00:16:38.190 --> 00:16:40.149 still a lot of work to be done in supporting 00:16:40.149 --> 00:16:44.289 them. And I find that that's very satisfying 00:16:44.289 --> 00:16:46.710 intellectually, but also on a personal level, 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:48.590 you feel like you're contributing a little drop 00:16:48.590 --> 00:16:50.690 in that ocean. And it's always something that 00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:55.759 in a career is motivating. Yeah, I can imagine. 00:16:55.899 --> 00:16:59.740 And you've been involved in the far north even 00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:03.120 before it was cool to be involved in the far 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.619 north as it does today. It's always cool, Rob. 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:12.039 Yeah, I think I caught that train at the right 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:16.519 moment before a certain president in the U .S. 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.900 started claiming ownership stakes over... over 00:17:20.900 --> 00:17:24.359 the arctic far and wide and um yeah it's it's 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:26.700 definitely talked about a lot now i mean all 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:29.460 of us in in none of it really say that it's long 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:32.619 overdue in terms of paying attention and and 00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:35.140 quite frankly as well the amount that it's being 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:39.059 talked about is still nowhere near um you know 00:17:39.059 --> 00:17:42.380 what's required in terms of realizing that it's 00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:45.430 a critical part of this country making sure Canadians 00:17:45.430 --> 00:17:47.789 understand and know about Nunavut. You know, 00:17:47.829 --> 00:17:50.869 very few people know that the statistics I gave 00:17:50.869 --> 00:17:52.769 you, right? Like three different regions, three 00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:55.390 different time zones in Nunavut created in 1999. 00:17:56.910 --> 00:18:00.109 You know, the possibilities, the fact that it's 00:18:00.109 --> 00:18:04.329 completely isolated. There's a Nunavut 101 that 00:18:04.329 --> 00:18:07.849 is missing from the Canadian curriculum that 00:18:07.849 --> 00:18:10.990 I hope is going to, you know, my work, other 00:18:10.990 --> 00:18:13.450 people's work is going to start emulating a bit. 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:18.500 Yes. And coming back to the diesel with 140 million, 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:22.059 I think, liters of diesel and it's all imported. 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:29.220 Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. Staggering. You know, when 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:32.359 I started working on the Kivalik hydrofiber link, 00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:35.359 we didn't have a lot of data because, again, 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.700 the project was still fairly new. It had been 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:39.619 pushed at some points by the federal governments, 00:18:39.859 --> 00:18:42.039 at other points by the province of Manitoba, 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.059 other times by the territory of Nunavut. But 00:18:45.059 --> 00:18:47.779 really, it was articulated around the idea of 00:18:47.779 --> 00:18:50.619 becoming connected and, you know, that almost 00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:53.420 romanticized idea of being part of the country. 00:18:54.220 --> 00:18:57.279 And then when I came on board, you know, I really 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.759 identified that we needed to drill into the numbers. 00:18:59.859 --> 00:19:02.140 We really needed to understand what vulnerabilities 00:19:02.140 --> 00:19:05.160 we had, what opportunities were associated with 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.599 those, and how we could leverage our strengths. 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:12.720 And so that 138 million liters of diesel fuel 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.480 that is being shipped and barged into the Kivalik 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.900 region every year is very real and it's going 00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:21.720 up and up and up. Because what you have to realize 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:26.259 is that that specific region is very active in 00:19:26.259 --> 00:19:28.259 terms of industrial development. So there are 00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:32.319 two active mines that burn more than the entire 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.769 region together. And there's no other way to 00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:39.490 bring fuel into the Arctic than by barge. And 00:19:39.490 --> 00:19:42.829 so you have to imagine those ships coming in 00:19:42.829 --> 00:19:45.849 as soon as the ice melts in June up until early 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:53.009 October. And it's an ecological catastrophe waiting 00:19:53.009 --> 00:19:54.950 to happen. I think it's a small miracle that 00:19:54.950 --> 00:19:58.869 nothing on a large scale has ever happened. And 00:19:58.869 --> 00:20:03.970 I fully realize that a degree of... diesel shipment 00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:06.230 will always need to happen in the Arctic because 00:20:06.230 --> 00:20:08.529 you will always need diesel for backup generation 00:20:08.529 --> 00:20:11.369 up until a point where maybe you have backup 00:20:11.369 --> 00:20:14.170 local baseload generation. But at least for the 00:20:14.170 --> 00:20:15.890 next few decades, it's still going to need to 00:20:15.890 --> 00:20:20.009 happen. But there are very real pathways to reduce 00:20:20.009 --> 00:20:24.089 that risk and to not only reduce the risk, but 00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:27.329 also create new economic opportunities for the 00:20:27.329 --> 00:20:32.160 region. That is one key motivating factor for 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.819 all of us, is to reduce the amount of diesel 00:20:34.819 --> 00:20:39.180 that's burnt in Nunavut. And one other key statistic 00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:42.940 that we find out, really, as we started working 00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:45.980 on the project, we reached out to the government 00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:48.559 of Nunavut, their petroleum products division, 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:51.880 and we asked the origin of that diesel. And we 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.440 were expecting it to be mostly Canadian. But 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.279 the numbers came back that most years, 100 % 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.839 of all the diesel that we burn that comes from 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:05.259 foreign countries, mostly the US. So not only 00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:07.980 do we burn diesel for every single part of our 00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.799 lives in Nunavut, but it's not even Canadian 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:13.299 diesel. And then because I work on telecommunication 00:21:13.299 --> 00:21:16.400 as well, because the Kivalik HydrofiberLink would 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:20.299 bring also fiber optic, we also got data on how 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:23.700 we support telecommunications. And it's mostly 00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:27.700 all supported by Starlink right now. which is 00:21:27.700 --> 00:21:30.180 amazing technology. It works really well. It 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:33.039 has transformed the way we can do business. Just 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.339 over the last three years, I've seen it's night 00:21:35.339 --> 00:21:38.019 and day in terms of connectivity. So we welcome 00:21:38.019 --> 00:21:41.240 it. But the problem is it's not Canadian technology. 00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:45.259 So you really have into such a strategic region. 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.279 an enormous Achilles heel, you're heading into 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.119 a wall with no optionality because optionality 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.799 takes a long time and it takes large investments. 00:21:58.700 --> 00:22:01.380 A project such as the Kivalik Hydrofiberlink 00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:04.480 would create a domestically owned and operated 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.460 infrastructure backbone into that strategic region 00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:11.579 of the Nunavut Arctic. And it's not going to 00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:14.000 resolve everything on its own, but it's a critical 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.799 piece of putting all of those foundational blocks 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.940 together. That is fascinating. But when you talk 00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:24.720 about those risks, forget who it is. It's not 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:29.029 Canadian. The federal government's eyes have 00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:30.609 been closed, who've been responsible for the 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:32.869 territory, and those who vote them in haven't 00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.089 raised these issues. But when you think of the 00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:40.670 risk that now comes to fruit in this world that 00:22:40.670 --> 00:22:44.309 we live in, we have given control, effective 00:22:44.309 --> 00:22:49.269 control, to non -Canadians. Whether the dealers 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:51.210 come from New Zealand or America, it doesn't 00:22:51.210 --> 00:22:55.250 make a difference. You know, we're not in control. 00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.180 And given how much Canada is defined by the North, 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.640 geographically, in terms of size of territory, 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:06.500 you know, we don't have the right military presence. 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.000 We don't have the right infrastructure and huge 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.380 challenges and opportunities in front of us. 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:17.180 That's a fascinating background. Yeah, and I 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:21.519 think it's what you realize as well. And look, 00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:23.980 we could go pretty deep in that rabbit hole in 00:23:23.980 --> 00:23:27.619 terms of the shortfallings of some of those decisions 00:23:27.619 --> 00:23:31.589 over the years. But once you give away... those 00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:34.269 pieces of sovereignty, it's very hard to reclaim 00:23:34.269 --> 00:23:36.670 it. And that's what every day I'm confronted 00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:38.769 with, just pushing that project forward. And 00:23:38.769 --> 00:23:40.750 I know that there are other people in Nunavut 00:23:40.750 --> 00:23:43.450 and elsewhere in the other territories trying 00:23:43.450 --> 00:23:47.930 to move very worthy projects forward. And what 00:23:47.930 --> 00:23:51.509 we are faced with is really the fact that... 00:23:51.869 --> 00:23:54.450 it becomes status quo, right? It becomes the 00:23:54.450 --> 00:23:59.049 fait accompli, the way things are and why change 00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:01.890 them because it's kind of, it's humming and puffing, 00:24:01.950 --> 00:24:06.009 but it's working, right? And then people do the 00:24:06.009 --> 00:24:08.109 math and they're like, okay, for our project, 00:24:08.130 --> 00:24:11.529 for example, you know, 3 billion capex for 16 00:24:11.529 --> 00:24:15.869 ,000 people, you know, it's difficult to justify. 00:24:16.029 --> 00:24:18.670 So you really have to understand it for all the 00:24:18.670 --> 00:24:21.539 things that you've said, which is, it has to 00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:25.500 be driven by a bigger aspiration to really reclaim 00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:28.359 who we are, which is we are an Arctic nation. 00:24:28.779 --> 00:24:31.059 We're not just neighbors to an Arctic nation. 00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:34.460 We're not just going there for research and sending 00:24:34.460 --> 00:24:37.940 a few, you know, museum, you know, northern ecologists 00:24:37.940 --> 00:24:41.700 to, you know, walk on the tundra every summertime. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:46.220 You know, this should be something. Yeah, but, 00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:48.759 you know, there's so much more to it and people 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:50.940 are calling for this kind of infrastructure. 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.559 And that's the other piece maybe that I should 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:56.279 highlight is because of the Inuit ownership. 00:24:57.049 --> 00:24:59.430 You couldn't hope for a better social license. 00:24:59.750 --> 00:25:03.230 People want this infrastructure. There will be 00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:05.809 probably, you know, a stop on the road where 00:25:05.809 --> 00:25:08.289 they say no more mining, you know, or we don't 00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:10.349 want this infrastructure here or there when, 00:25:10.349 --> 00:25:13.970 you know, I'm talking 20, 30, 40 years. But the 00:25:13.970 --> 00:25:17.069 markers right now are very much connect us to 00:25:17.069 --> 00:25:20.009 the continental grid, which Nukic has done. You 00:25:20.009 --> 00:25:22.670 know, we have a MISO certification. We are the 00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:25.910 first and only. Arctic electricity developer 00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:28.230 to have been certified by a regional transmission 00:25:28.230 --> 00:25:31.829 organization in the US, which is a major, major 00:25:31.829 --> 00:25:34.690 accomplishment. And we're ready to go. So the 00:25:34.690 --> 00:25:36.829 communities, every time we go in and we do our 00:25:36.829 --> 00:25:39.549 community engagement tours, communities tell 00:25:39.549 --> 00:25:41.470 us to not come back until we've actually started 00:25:41.470 --> 00:25:43.329 building something. They're getting frustrated 00:25:43.329 --> 00:25:46.009 with us for not, you know, going faster and delivering 00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:48.789 this asset. Where else in Canada do you have 00:25:48.789 --> 00:25:51.690 this, right? Like that's the other piece of the 00:25:51.690 --> 00:25:54.859 puzzle that... It needs to be reconciled. You 00:25:54.859 --> 00:25:57.599 really have a jurisdiction that is going to welcome 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.859 you with open arms, and yet you cannot bring 00:26:00.859 --> 00:26:05.400 yourself as a country to do it. So just to interrupt 00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:08.720 there for a second, that MISO certification is 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.640 equivalent over here, I understand, to the ENSO 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:15.049 - technical certification for interconnector 00:26:15.049 --> 00:26:18.869 projects between the UK and continental Europe. 00:26:19.069 --> 00:26:21.990 So it's very similar in terms of what has been 00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:26.069 achieved, but you're right, it's a huge opportunity. 00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:29.670 Let's get a little bit into the detail of the 00:26:29.670 --> 00:26:32.789 project, but I have this question, and this is 00:26:32.789 --> 00:26:36.430 not one of the key projects that has been identified 00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:39.930 yet for the National Projects Office to get. 00:26:40.009 --> 00:26:43.420 What is the background to that? Why? Why not? 00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:45.680 I mean, you're not the person to be asking that. 00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:47.359 That should be going to the prime minister and 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.859 his team. Because this seems to hit all the right 00:26:50.859 --> 00:26:54.420 markers. Yeah, you're going to get me in trouble 00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:57.640 here, Mark, by becoming a bit political in my 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:02.000 statements. But it remains to be seen. With the 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.420 major project office, right? Like I think the 00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:07.059 government is still new. It's going on its first 00:27:07.059 --> 00:27:10.079 birthday, meaning the Mark Carney government. 00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:12.579 And within the first few months of his new government, 00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:15.420 he implemented and launched the Build Canada 00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:18.880 Act and then the major project office. And the 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.680 idea, again, for maybe listeners who are not 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:26.349 in Canada, may not know the context. Mark Carney 00:27:26.349 --> 00:27:29.750 really identified that Canada was very bureaucracy 00:27:29.750 --> 00:27:33.769 heavy in its process for major projects, be it 00:27:33.769 --> 00:27:37.089 pipelines, be it railway, be it transmission 00:27:37.089 --> 00:27:41.170 lines, local generation, etc. We were just not 00:27:41.170 --> 00:27:44.390 efficient. Despite having all the resources and 00:27:44.390 --> 00:27:46.990 all the brainpower, we could not get those over 00:27:46.990 --> 00:27:51.730 the finish line. He created the MPO stating that 00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:54.130 he would fast track projects that were deemed 00:27:54.130 --> 00:27:59.130 to be in the national interest. That identification 00:27:59.130 --> 00:28:03.049 of being in the national interest is based on 00:28:03.049 --> 00:28:05.710 five criteria. Some of them are, you know, have 00:28:05.710 --> 00:28:09.329 to benefit Indigenous communities, has to benefit 00:28:09.329 --> 00:28:12.549 climate, has to be obviously in the national 00:28:12.549 --> 00:28:14.650 interest of the country from a sovereignty and 00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:17.750 national security perspective, and a couple of 00:28:17.750 --> 00:28:21.460 others. When the legislation came out, I think 00:28:21.460 --> 00:28:23.619 we probably were one of the first proponents 00:28:23.619 --> 00:28:27.599 to write to Prime Minister Carney and say, bingo, 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.099 we meet and exceed every one of those five criteria. 00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:34.940 And I was quite happy to see that happen because 00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:38.819 I had been for years calling out the federal 00:28:38.819 --> 00:28:41.119 government for the red tape that it was putting 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:43.940 project proponents under. And the fact that, 00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:47.140 again, despite having all of the cards in hand, 00:28:47.259 --> 00:28:50.160 we could not play and win that game, right? We 00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.640 were just standing in our own way, which is something 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:54.839 that a lot of observers and a lot of people are 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:59.640 saying about Canada. And then we didn't hear 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.440 anything, but we saw the projects being listed 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:05.119 and referred to the major project office while 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.460 we were just standing by and hoping to be housed 00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:12.759 under this new system, which is really the way 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:15.880 I view it. At the end of the day, it might still 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:20.500 be a new... bureaucracy, reframed and relabeled. 00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.619 But I see it as a house where you can have a 00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:25.799 whole of government approach and really have 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.579 experts, financial energy experts, you know, 00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:31.660 looking at your project and telling you, okay, 00:29:31.700 --> 00:29:33.380 this is how we're going to crack the code on 00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:35.480 making it happen, especially in the Arctic, they're 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:38.779 so complex. And we're still in that, you know, 00:29:38.779 --> 00:29:40.920 dance, I would say with the federal government 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:46.170 where they're trying to see how set such an undertaking 00:29:46.170 --> 00:29:51.230 could go. If we were $500 million type of project, 00:29:51.529 --> 00:29:55.049 we would already have been referred. So I'm just 00:29:55.049 --> 00:29:57.529 telling you a little secret here, but it's 100 00:29:57.529 --> 00:30:02.390 % because of the CapEx. And until we find a way 00:30:02.390 --> 00:30:06.849 to get those major projects done under what I 00:30:06.849 --> 00:30:08.549 said, you know, at the beginning of the call 00:30:08.549 --> 00:30:11.890 under public service framework, and stop analyzing 00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:16.460 them as you know, having to have an economic 00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:18.420 backbone of their own, which they never will. 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.759 They're never going to be economical on their 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.900 own just because there aren't the rate base. 00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:26.380 None of it is 40 ,000 people. How are you going 00:30:26.380 --> 00:30:28.720 to justify the multi -billion dollars worth of 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:30.680 investment that's required to bring those people 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:32.460 the level of infrastructure that they deserve? 00:30:33.099 --> 00:30:35.019 It's just not going to work. So until you have 00:30:35.019 --> 00:30:38.450 leaders who accept that. Just accepting it. Then 00:30:38.450 --> 00:30:41.130 you can have the creative thinking and the wheels 00:30:41.130 --> 00:30:43.369 in motion to say, okay, well, we are going to 00:30:43.369 --> 00:30:45.569 do green bonds. We are going to do, you know, 00:30:45.589 --> 00:30:48.549 social credits. We are going to do all of the 00:30:48.549 --> 00:30:51.849 things that are in the toolbox that Canada never 00:30:51.849 --> 00:30:54.190 really leveraged on international platforms, 00:30:54.470 --> 00:30:57.150 but that international investors would be very 00:30:57.150 --> 00:31:00.609 interested in if there was the backstopping of 00:31:00.609 --> 00:31:04.279 the federal government. The last thing I'll say 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:06.279 is the federal government is very good at asking 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:08.700 proponents to have skin in the game. They're 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:10.559 not very good at putting their own skin in the 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.500 game. And so time will tell if they're putting 00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:17.119 their, you know, if they're walking the talk. 00:31:19.539 --> 00:31:22.539 Thank you to Anne -Raphael Oudwan for sharing 00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:24.880 her insights with us. And thank you for viewing 00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:27.880 and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming 00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:30.880 2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April. 00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:34.000 Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.859 on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for 00:31:36.859 --> 00:31:39.019 listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.