WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.069 Welcome to Drum Beats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:05.730 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.730 --> 00:00:08.710 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:11.089 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.750 --> 00:00:15.929 I'm Mark McNatka, and my co -host Robert Branton 00:00:15.929 --> 00:00:19.230 and I are joined today by Jonathan Davey, Managing 00:00:19.230 --> 00:00:21.449 Director of Indigenous and Government Advisory 00:00:21.449 --> 00:00:25.690 at Scotiabank, one of Canada's largest and most 00:00:25.690 --> 00:00:30.079 international banks. Jonathan is... Haudenosaunee, 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:32.859 a proud member of the Lower Cayuga Nation of 00:00:32.859 --> 00:00:35.719 the Six Nations of the Grand River. He came to 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:37.859 this role via a decade practicing Indigenous 00:00:37.859 --> 00:00:40.920 law at Canada's Department of Justice, five years 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:43.359 leading Scotiabank's Indigenous Financial Services 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:46.299 Group, and most recently, a year working directly 00:00:46.299 --> 00:00:50.350 alongside Scotiabank's President and CEO. He 00:00:50.350 --> 00:00:52.250 now leads the bank's Indigenous and government 00:00:52.250 --> 00:00:55.070 advisory practice within its global banking and 00:00:55.070 --> 00:00:57.689 markets division, the first role of its kind 00:00:57.689 --> 00:01:01.070 at a major Canadian bank. In this first episode 00:01:01.070 --> 00:01:04.730 of a two -part episode of our conversation, you'll 00:01:04.730 --> 00:01:07.329 hear how a decade inside Canada's legal system 00:01:07.329 --> 00:01:09.590 shaped Jonathan's understanding of Indigenous 00:01:09.590 --> 00:01:13.409 finance, why Scotiabank made a mutual investment 00:01:13.409 --> 00:01:16.349 in building this practice from scratch, and what 00:01:16.349 --> 00:01:19.010 the creation of Cedar Leaf Capital, Canada's 00:01:19.010 --> 00:01:21.549 first Indigenous -owned broker -dealer, signals 00:01:21.549 --> 00:01:23.829 about where Canada's capital markets are heading. 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:29.409 John Davey, Managing Director, Indigenous and 00:01:29.409 --> 00:01:32.049 Government Advisory at Scotiabank. It's great 00:01:32.049 --> 00:01:34.170 to have you on Drumbeats. Thanks for joining 00:01:34.170 --> 00:01:36.750 us. Well, Mark, it's great to be here. Thanks 00:01:36.750 --> 00:01:39.290 very much for having me, and I'm looking forward 00:01:39.290 --> 00:01:42.469 to our conversation. Yes, great to have you, 00:01:42.530 --> 00:01:47.689 John. Started this initiative a couple of years 00:01:47.689 --> 00:01:50.549 ago, nearly three years ago. You were one of 00:01:50.549 --> 00:01:55.290 the early supporters at Mansion House. Scotiabank, 00:01:55.290 --> 00:01:57.750 of course, was one of our sponsors. And you were 00:01:57.750 --> 00:01:59.890 one of the individuals who showed up to help 00:01:59.890 --> 00:02:02.870 us build the reputation that we've continued 00:02:02.870 --> 00:02:04.810 to strengthen and will continue to do so. So 00:02:04.810 --> 00:02:06.930 great to have you on a podcast. Well, you're 00:02:06.930 --> 00:02:09.310 being charitable, Mark. I was very happy to be 00:02:09.310 --> 00:02:11.870 at that summit. You had a great delegation of 00:02:11.870 --> 00:02:15.080 people come to London. uh so scotia makes a very 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:16.819 proud supporter of the summit and what you're 00:02:16.819 --> 00:02:18.740 doing for the last three well this will be the 00:02:18.740 --> 00:02:22.479 third year now uh but it's a testament to the 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:24.099 great thing that the two of you have built and 00:02:24.099 --> 00:02:27.259 that we're we're happy to contribute to so having 00:02:27.259 --> 00:02:29.419 discussions like this and having a summit where 00:02:29.419 --> 00:02:31.919 we can meet with people who are coming together 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:33.740 to look at these great opportunities that certainly 00:02:33.740 --> 00:02:36.699 impact indigenous peoples in canada and beyond 00:02:36.699 --> 00:02:40.419 couldn't be more happy to be a part of it yeah 00:02:40.419 --> 00:02:44.139 you and the scotia team have been Great supporters 00:02:44.139 --> 00:02:46.819 from day one. We really value the partnership 00:02:46.819 --> 00:02:49.419 that we've created, and we've been trying to 00:02:49.419 --> 00:02:53.520 get you on drumbeats for a while. So it's finally 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.159 happened. We like to talk a little bit about 00:02:56.159 --> 00:03:00.659 people's personal backgrounds and get to know 00:03:00.659 --> 00:03:04.280 some of the human side. So first, start off by 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:08.080 telling us a little bit about yourself. Sure. 00:03:09.310 --> 00:03:11.889 Well, I'm Haudenosaunee. I'm a proud member of 00:03:11.889 --> 00:03:13.789 the Lower Cayuga, the Six Nations of the Grand 00:03:13.789 --> 00:03:16.069 River, which is heritage I share with my father. 00:03:17.710 --> 00:03:20.469 Really growing up, some of the values that were 00:03:20.469 --> 00:03:23.629 really expressed to me as a young person that 00:03:23.629 --> 00:03:25.969 I carry with me today have to do with honoring 00:03:25.969 --> 00:03:28.189 your ancestors and making things better for future 00:03:28.189 --> 00:03:32.210 generations. So in my professional life, I certainly 00:03:32.210 --> 00:03:34.250 try to do that as well as in my personal life. 00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:37.560 model such behavior for my kids and for other 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.900 young people who might be looking at me just 00:03:40.900 --> 00:03:43.120 as I looked at people growing up to see how they 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:47.659 were doing things in a good way. So Rob, something 00:03:47.659 --> 00:03:49.780 that you and I have in common is I'm a lawyer 00:03:49.780 --> 00:03:53.360 by background. I started my career with the Department 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:56.819 of Justice in Canada and spent 10 years practicing 00:03:56.819 --> 00:04:00.759 Indigenous law. working a lot with residential 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.080 school survivors and then doing more solicitor 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:04.800 -based work that had to do with development, 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:07.280 primarily on reserve involving First Nations. 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:09.639 And then about seven years ago, transitioned 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:14.120 to Scotiabank. They were looking for someone 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.879 to lead their Indigenous financial services group. 00:04:17.290 --> 00:04:19.569 uh looking to weigh in on some of the discussions 00:04:19.569 --> 00:04:22.269 that were happening around risk adjudication 00:04:22.269 --> 00:04:24.389 when it came to lending to indigenous groups 00:04:24.389 --> 00:04:27.089 primarily i mean it's since evolved quite a bit 00:04:27.089 --> 00:04:29.410 since since then since those initial discussions 00:04:29.410 --> 00:04:32.930 and i was in that position for about five years 00:04:32.930 --> 00:04:36.230 uh before i was very fortunate to be asked to 00:04:36.230 --> 00:04:38.990 join uh the office of our president and ceo scott 00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:42.209 thompson so for the last two years i got to work 00:04:42.209 --> 00:04:45.189 directly with scott in his office it was a great 00:04:45.189 --> 00:04:49.089 learning experience for me uh really gave me 00:04:49.089 --> 00:04:50.750 a lot of pride in the work that the bank is doing 00:04:50.750 --> 00:04:53.670 especially towards indigenous communities and 00:04:53.670 --> 00:04:56.529 that brings us to the last two months where i've 00:04:56.529 --> 00:05:00.569 entered this new role of being the managing director 00:05:00.569 --> 00:05:03.569 of indigenous and government advisory within 00:05:03.569 --> 00:05:05.550 investment banking in our global banking and 00:05:05.550 --> 00:05:08.509 markets group so that's a little bit about me 00:05:08.509 --> 00:05:11.699 in terms of my professional history And then 00:05:11.699 --> 00:05:15.620 I'm a husband and father and two little kids. 00:05:15.779 --> 00:05:17.620 So like I said, always trying to model the right 00:05:17.620 --> 00:05:19.620 behavior, knowing that they're going to be watching. 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:23.759 Wow. Thank you for that background. And I always 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.259 come back on these conversations. It's different 00:05:27.259 --> 00:05:31.620 for me. And I really am pleased to be participating 00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:37.319 and discussing with the founding peoples. of 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:40.000 the land called Canada and what I call home. 00:05:40.060 --> 00:05:42.620 But I went to school, Iroquois Junior Public 00:05:42.620 --> 00:05:47.879 School, and my First Nation was Cayuga. And looking 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:51.899 back, I never thought then that I would meet, 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.759 that it would come back to me in my later life. 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.740 And I think it comes back to this concept that's 00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:01.959 talked about, about two -eyed seeing. And I think 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:05.560 if many Canadians looked around and actually 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:10.610 could see, all of around, they would see the 00:06:10.610 --> 00:06:15.449 First Nations and the peoples of Canada of the 00:06:15.449 --> 00:06:18.709 land called Turtle Island and their history and 00:06:18.709 --> 00:06:21.129 artifacts and their perspective on things much 00:06:21.129 --> 00:06:23.750 more strongly. So I'm always touched when people 00:06:23.750 --> 00:06:26.329 tell their story and there's that connection. 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:29.560 I like that you referenced Turtle Island just 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.379 because I'm lower Cayuga. So if you look at the 00:06:32.379 --> 00:06:36.420 traditional territory of the Cayuga, it's modern 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:38.480 day. A lot of it's modern day upstate New York. 00:06:39.579 --> 00:06:42.379 And so, you know, as a brief aside, I met my 00:06:42.379 --> 00:06:46.459 wife in upstate New York. I met her in Ithaca 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:51.160 and she's an American. And my father was born 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:55.740 American and then moved to Canada. It's interesting 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.360 to see that there's a border in between, obviously 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:03.389 now, but the traditional territories are... They 00:07:03.389 --> 00:07:05.970 cover more ground than maybe we anticipate when 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:07.750 we talk about just something that's Canadian 00:07:07.750 --> 00:07:11.069 -centric. The laws and regulations and some of 00:07:11.069 --> 00:07:13.410 the financial transactions that we'd be looking 00:07:13.410 --> 00:07:16.029 at are certainly probably more germane to Canada 00:07:16.029 --> 00:07:19.689 right now. But the territories, the cultures, 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:21.509 the histories, the traditions, the languages 00:07:21.509 --> 00:07:24.670 certainly span Turtle Island. And in my case, 00:07:24.709 --> 00:07:28.189 there is a strong connection to the U .S. Yes, 00:07:28.189 --> 00:07:31.899 I'm not sure if Schenectady is in that. southern 00:07:31.899 --> 00:07:33.839 part of the territory. But that's where my ancestors 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:38.839 came from, who then came up when what was called 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.480 British North America was separated and the war 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:47.319 started. But I just think it comes back to those 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:50.939 who aren't from North America and Canada. You 00:07:50.939 --> 00:07:53.660 know, again, reinforcing the Indigenous people 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:58.240 were there beforehand, living quite happily. 00:07:58.829 --> 00:08:00.949 trading, going to war with each other sometime 00:08:00.949 --> 00:08:04.889 like the Europeans. And there was a whole culture 00:08:04.889 --> 00:08:08.769 and civilization throughout the Americas before 00:08:08.769 --> 00:08:13.149 the Vikings or the Europeans arrived and changed 00:08:13.149 --> 00:08:15.550 things. And those are very artificial borders 00:08:15.550 --> 00:08:19.670 on the map. And we have a war going on in the 00:08:19.670 --> 00:08:22.089 Middle East at the moment. And part of the issue 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:24.370 there is there were borders drawn that weren't 00:08:24.370 --> 00:08:27.720 representative. So I think there's that whole 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:32.639 issue of Turtle Island as it is, and these are 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.519 superimposed borders and structures and now laws 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.240 and different sovereign countries on top of that 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.960 and within that in Canada, different sovereign 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.019 nations as well. But it's more complex and it's 00:08:46.019 --> 00:08:50.259 more rich than people would think. And many people 00:08:50.259 --> 00:08:52.220 would be surprised that before there were the 00:08:52.220 --> 00:08:55.470 United States of America. They had the original 00:08:55.470 --> 00:09:03.210 Canadians, which was New France, who were very 00:09:03.210 --> 00:09:05.610 strong initially, had good relationships with 00:09:05.610 --> 00:09:07.370 a lot of the Indigenous peoples and how that 00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:09.570 all transitioned over time. So we don't know 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:12.169 what will happen in 200 years. But what we do 00:09:12.169 --> 00:09:14.870 know will happen in the next years and decades 00:09:14.870 --> 00:09:17.950 is the Canadian economy is not going to be successful 00:09:17.950 --> 00:09:21.149 unless the Indigenous people are given the opportunity 00:09:21.149 --> 00:09:24.799 to participate. and leverage their skills and 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.980 knowledge and give them access to capital because 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:29.299 some of the best business people today in Canada 00:09:29.299 --> 00:09:31.879 are actually Indigenous. So it's an exciting 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.299 platform and stage that we're at at the country. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.500 Certainly. Yes, and we're seeing people like 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:41.559 John take senior roles at major, some of the 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:43.919 biggest financial institutions in the country 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:48.279 and focus on the Indigenous economy and how to 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.350 play a bigger part. But I'm interested, John, 00:09:51.470 --> 00:09:53.590 your career, you started as a lawyer, went to 00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:57.070 the same law school that I did, the great Osgoode 00:09:57.070 --> 00:10:01.769 Hall Law School at York University. And I had 00:10:01.769 --> 00:10:04.289 always thought that I would start out doing some 00:10:04.289 --> 00:10:08.669 of the similar work that you actually did. But 00:10:08.669 --> 00:10:11.730 I ended up sort of going straight into corporate 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:14.509 law and capital markets work. But you started 00:10:14.509 --> 00:10:16.870 out in a different way of justice and you've... 00:10:17.649 --> 00:10:20.889 You veered into the capital market space. How 00:10:20.889 --> 00:10:26.830 did that happen? And do you take that experience, 00:10:26.990 --> 00:10:29.570 bring that with you into the capital market space? 00:10:30.110 --> 00:10:33.029 Yeah. No, and I am glad you pointed that out, 00:10:33.029 --> 00:10:36.850 Rob. Very proud alumnus of Osgoode Hall. And 00:10:36.850 --> 00:10:39.330 it's a pleasure to share that distinction with 00:10:39.330 --> 00:10:42.740 you. And like I said. In terms of my values, 00:10:42.899 --> 00:10:44.659 you know, you honor the people that came before 00:10:44.659 --> 00:10:46.419 you and make things better for future generations. 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.320 I wouldn't have the career path I've had, Rob, 00:10:49.419 --> 00:10:52.220 if it wasn't for you and others like you who 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:55.179 have really shown a path and created a lot of 00:10:55.179 --> 00:10:58.360 opportunities. So, you know, on a very personal 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:00.659 level, as well as a professional level, I thank 00:11:00.659 --> 00:11:04.039 you for what you're doing. I think he just called 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:07.840 you old, Rob. It's not that, Mark. It's not that 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:14.500 at all. Experienced, very capable, very well 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:18.320 respected. But Rob's been like that, I think, 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.320 for his entire career. I don't think that's anything 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.039 new. No, I think that's his character. I think 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:25.960 you're right. If you had told me, Rob and Mark, 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:29.059 that I'd have this position at the bank when 00:11:29.059 --> 00:11:31.019 I was starting out, I would have been surprised. 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.320 It certainly wasn't. If I'm being honest with 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.539 myself and with you, it wasn't a deliberate path 00:11:36.539 --> 00:11:39.919 and it was more like deliberate decisions, always 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:41.840 anchored by this idea of where can I have the 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.120 greatest impact within our community? Like, how 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:46.899 is it that I can have the most positive impact 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:49.919 on future generations? And that's what led me 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.860 to Scotiabank in the first place. Just recognizing 00:11:52.860 --> 00:11:56.629 that. Practicing law at the Department of Justice 00:11:56.629 --> 00:11:59.049 was a great experience. I got to know the Indian 00:11:59.049 --> 00:12:01.029 Act, First Nation Land Management Act, First 00:12:01.029 --> 00:12:03.070 Nation Fiscal Management Act, all the associated 00:12:03.070 --> 00:12:05.429 legislation, jurisprudence, regulations very 00:12:05.429 --> 00:12:09.049 well. And I did enjoy being a lawyer. I wasn't 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:11.870 looking to leave that practice or leave that 00:12:11.870 --> 00:12:15.590 vocation. But when I talked to people at Scotiabank 00:12:15.590 --> 00:12:17.330 and I understood what they were looking for. 00:12:18.029 --> 00:12:20.129 uh what i really commend scotia bank for is they 00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:22.169 were willing to expand the pie i mean it started 00:12:22.169 --> 00:12:24.669 out as more risk -based conversations how is 00:12:24.669 --> 00:12:27.110 it that we de -risk some of the transactions 00:12:27.110 --> 00:12:28.809 that we're looking at that involve indigenous 00:12:28.809 --> 00:12:32.409 parties and it evolved into well how do we bring 00:12:32.409 --> 00:12:36.470 more indigenous parties uh you know more integrated 00:12:36.470 --> 00:12:38.429 into financial institutions so that it's not 00:12:38.429 --> 00:12:40.210 a mystery and that we remove the vulnerability 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:43.330 i mean when it comes to honoring you know the 00:12:43.330 --> 00:12:45.129 people before you making things better for future 00:12:45.129 --> 00:12:48.169 generations What I've recognized is a huge part 00:12:48.169 --> 00:12:51.570 of that is removing vulnerability. And so if 00:12:51.570 --> 00:12:53.330 you look at any foreign investor that's looking 00:12:53.330 --> 00:12:56.110 at what's happening in Canada right now, and 00:12:56.110 --> 00:12:58.110 they're looking at projects of national interest, 00:12:58.269 --> 00:13:00.590 and they're reading about Indigenous participation, 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:03.789 there's a vulnerability that would be felt there, 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:06.149 I'm assuming, where maybe they've never worked 00:13:06.149 --> 00:13:08.850 with Indigenous parties before. They're not aware 00:13:08.850 --> 00:13:11.210 of the network of legislation and regulations 00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:13.610 that make it different to see an Indigenous investment 00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:16.350 than a non -Indigenous investment. And so the 00:13:16.350 --> 00:13:18.529 evolution of my career has really been, well, 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:21.049 let's really get to know the Indian Act. I went 00:13:21.049 --> 00:13:23.769 to law school, Rob, under this idea that I was 00:13:23.769 --> 00:13:27.929 going to lead the charge to repeal it. And having 00:13:27.929 --> 00:13:30.570 great professors, having great classmates, and 00:13:30.570 --> 00:13:33.710 having some great experience early on in my days 00:13:33.710 --> 00:13:36.649 of practice and articling, I realized that the 00:13:36.649 --> 00:13:38.950 Indian Act is a very vulnerable piece of legislation. 00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:42.029 It can be... broken and exploited in different 00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:44.409 ways. So it's less about repealing it and more 00:13:44.409 --> 00:13:47.149 about how do you look at it as a series of limits 00:13:47.149 --> 00:13:50.710 that can actually be broken or tested. And so 00:13:50.710 --> 00:13:53.129 that's what's led me to my current role, where 00:13:53.129 --> 00:13:55.509 when we look at what's happening federally, where 00:13:55.509 --> 00:13:57.230 there's this greater appetite to have Indigenous 00:13:57.230 --> 00:14:01.450 participation in equity transactions or to have 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:04.769 just greater involvement in Indigenous parties 00:14:04.769 --> 00:14:07.879 and capital markets, whatever it may be. I still 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:09.879 have to apply that same lens as I did as a lawyer 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:12.220 to say, how is it that the legislative frameworks 00:14:12.220 --> 00:14:15.659 and regulatory frameworks impact Indigenous parties 00:14:15.659 --> 00:14:18.059 differently? And where is it that we have to 00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:19.899 work around and where is it that we can work 00:14:19.899 --> 00:14:22.539 through? And what was great about when I first 00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:25.679 joined the bank was looking at credit structures, 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:28.419 credit structures for First Nations. So lending 00:14:28.419 --> 00:14:30.779 to Indigenous groups, primarily First Nations, 00:14:30.860 --> 00:14:34.279 seeing how the Indian Act, you know, we've got 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.399 different provisions that prevent. assets on 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:38.100 reserve for being used as collateral. So what 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:40.259 does that mean? Well, it means you have to look 00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:42.220 elsewhere in terms of where to find the collateralized 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:44.940 value of an asset on reserve. Look at legal instruments, 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:47.399 leases, license permits. You look at cash flows. 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:49.299 You look at off -reserve assets. You look at 00:14:49.299 --> 00:14:52.080 different systems that will allow you to get 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:55.279 to the same result or the same solution. So really, 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:59.220 the evolution of this has been, I try to be a 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:01.360 good problem solver. I try to look at things 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.940 as not impediments. potentially limits like you'd 00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:07.039 see in an equation and just come up with solutions 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:09.919 that are oftentimes nuanced or outside the box. 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.120 And telling that to anybody that's never worked 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:17.279 with Indigenous groups before or in talking to 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.220 some of the proponents that might be looking 00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:21.440 to sell assets or enter into equity arrangements 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:25.159 with Indigenous groups, something I say often 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:26.799 is just because it looks different doesn't mean 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.240 there's anything wrong with it. It's a matter 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.200 of explaining the complexity. And actually showing 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.279 a path through some of the different legislative 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:36.519 restrictions that have often impeded the access 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:38.480 to capital for Indigenous parties and the ability 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.899 to actually have meaningful relationships with 00:15:40.899 --> 00:15:44.600 non -Indigenous parties. Just coming back to 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.340 when you transitioned, well, when you moved over 00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:51.539 to Scotia, it must have been a time, you know, 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:53.500 what was your perspective that, you know, Scotia 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:55.799 was actually looking to do this because it wasn't 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.580 necessarily a top priority for every bank in 00:15:58.580 --> 00:16:02.000 the country? Can you tell us a little bit more 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:07.720 about that? For sure, Mark. It was unlike any 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.740 experience I've ever had where we all know what 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:12.299 it's like to go through an interview process. 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:14.440 And I was certainly interviewing for the job, 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.639 but I had just as many questions for Scotiabank 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.120 as Scotiabank had for me. And I was very lucky 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.019 to meet some excellent leaders very early on 00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:26.100 who shaped my way of thinking about, I'd say, 00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:27.779 financial institutions generally, but certainly 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:32.679 Scotiabank. The refrain was, you know, the bank 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.960 needs to learn more about how to work with Indigenous 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:38.379 groups. And you coming from law need to learn 00:16:38.379 --> 00:16:40.419 more about how to work, you know, how to be a 00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:44.360 banker, how to work in finance. And so this idea 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:45.980 of let's make a mutual investment, you invest 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:48.639 in us and we invest in you. And it's been true, 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:50.139 Mark. Like that's the thing that's been great 00:16:50.139 --> 00:16:52.740 about it is that I've certainly seen Scotiabank 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.519 invest in me. And I've done my best to invest 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.480 in Scotiabank to make sure that We have models 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:01.559 and forms that are set up so that others can 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.679 be invited in and contribute. You never want 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:08.140 one person in a large institution trying to dictate 00:17:08.140 --> 00:17:11.500 or say what's the best thing for Indigenous peoples. 00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:13.720 You need a lot of voices, you need a lot of perspective, 00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:17.700 and you need subscription. And so I think Scotiabank 00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:19.559 really did create that environment early on, 00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:21.799 and I'm very happy to contribute to it as one 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:26.059 person. But it was an inviting role where it 00:17:26.059 --> 00:17:28.400 came back down to that first principle is, I 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.720 think I can have a greater impact working at 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.220 the bank than I can in my current position at 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:34.619 that time, which was working at the Department 00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:37.440 of Justice. The other reality, Mark, is that 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:42.839 it's heavy at times. It's heavy at times to be 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.599 a federal crown and be Indigenous. And there's 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.950 a lot of excellent... uh members of the federal 00:17:48.950 --> 00:17:52.029 government who are indigenous who who do great 00:17:52.029 --> 00:17:55.690 things for our community but it's it's a feeling 00:17:55.690 --> 00:17:57.509 at times where you're saying okay i'm trying 00:17:57.509 --> 00:18:01.349 to come at this in a good way but who i'm representing 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:04.829 is oftentimes you know the the group that's been 00:18:04.829 --> 00:18:06.750 responsible for a lot of the decisions that have 00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:10.329 been injurious to my community and so the opportunity 00:18:10.329 --> 00:18:12.869 to step outside of that after 10 years was also 00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:15.259 appealing not to say that i wouldn't be up for 00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:17.660 the challenge or willing to do it. I just like 00:18:17.660 --> 00:18:19.960 the idea that I can take the knowledge and experience 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.019 that I have, apply it from a different perspective 00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:25.180 and not feel that weight that I'd felt before 00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:27.799 where it's, you know, I never want somebody to 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:29.480 walk into a room and say, there's the lawyer 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:31.579 for Canada and feel like they're not going to 00:18:31.579 --> 00:18:33.920 get somebody that's compassionate or that cares 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.119 about their perspective or about their worldview. 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:40.200 So it was a weighty decision, Mark, but I'm very 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.420 happy with the environment that Scotiabank has 00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:45.019 created and continues to create. And we see that 00:18:45.019 --> 00:18:47.299 with our partnerships externally, too. I mean, 00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:49.140 the summit's a great example of that, where if 00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:51.059 we see people doing things in a good way that 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.619 benefit the community, we want to support that 00:18:53.619 --> 00:18:57.160 in whatever way we can. Tell us a little bit 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:04.059 about Cedar Leaf, how that came about, and maybe 00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:06.980 talk about from an outside view. It looks like 00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:12.299 Scotia has helped set up a competitor to one 00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:17.299 of its business lines. For sure. So Cedar Leaf 00:19:17.299 --> 00:19:20.839 Capital, led by Clint Davis, who's their CEO, 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.720 it's something I think everyone at Scotiabank 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.000 should be really proud of. Its origin, Rob, came 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:33.200 from market demand. We had people in market asking 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.720 whether there was an indigenous broker dealer. 00:19:36.980 --> 00:19:40.720 Just did one exist at all? And the U .S. had 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.250 had some semblance of... broker dealers that 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:47.730 touched on Native American owned and operated 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:50.130 broker dealers. Who are those questions coming 00:19:50.130 --> 00:19:52.309 from? Was it indigenous nations saying, is there 00:19:52.309 --> 00:19:55.470 someone with a progressive, to call them progressive 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:58.730 firms who had been through the economic reconciliation 00:19:58.730 --> 00:20:02.549 and got their act together? So Mark, it came 00:20:02.549 --> 00:20:05.890 from clients. It came from clients of the bank 00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:08.569 that were asking who typically there's one client 00:20:08.569 --> 00:20:12.890 in particular. uh that was very focused on the 00:20:12.890 --> 00:20:15.329 commitments they had made for their procurement 00:20:15.329 --> 00:20:18.490 spend towards indigenous vendors and in some 00:20:18.490 --> 00:20:21.490 it was it was an ambitious spend it was great 00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:23.529 to see but they were having difficulty actually 00:20:23.529 --> 00:20:25.289 rounding it out so they were saying we need more 00:20:25.289 --> 00:20:28.470 avenues by which we can deploy capital towards 00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:31.529 indigenous businesses and this seems to be a 00:20:31.529 --> 00:20:32.950 natural way to do this when we go to the debt 00:20:32.950 --> 00:20:35.369 markets to raise capital if there was an indigenous 00:20:35.369 --> 00:20:39.460 broker dealer this could be innovative this could 00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:41.500 be new but it could be very supportive of the 00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:43.480 community and not only that the integration of 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:46.140 indigenous people within capital markets uh would 00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:48.079 move forward tremendously and that's what we're 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.619 seeing happen with cedar leaf capital so uh clint 00:20:51.619 --> 00:20:54.559 davis has done an outstanding job uh you know 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.779 they're they're you know an underwriter and placement 00:20:56.779 --> 00:20:59.140 agent for fixed income securities and they're 00:20:59.140 --> 00:21:03.039 providing financial advisory um And they've been 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.880 a part of, you know, they're a part of a number 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.000 of syndicates, but they were part of the Stonastic 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.599 Eight deal, Rob, which I know you know well. 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:15.319 And so we're seeing Cedar Leaf come up in more 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.759 opportunities to actually get Indigenous groups 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.960 more integrated in terms of capital markets when 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.640 it comes to these greater transactions that are 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.940 going to benefit more communities. Cedar Leaf, 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.799 you know, everything that... took place to get 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:32.859 it set up and get it the regulatory approval 00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:36.039 it was a lot of hard work by a lot of dedicated 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.619 people it's another reason i'm very very proud 00:21:38.619 --> 00:21:42.200 to work at scotia bank is because everyone came 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.900 together and it's one of those moments where 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:49.250 i love it When somebody comes and says, hey, 00:21:49.329 --> 00:21:52.750 I don't fully understand this, nobody was making 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:54.230 them feel bad. Everyone would say, hey, we've 00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:55.990 got to make sure you're up to speed. I know I 00:21:55.990 --> 00:21:58.069 asked a lot of those questions. And when we were 00:21:58.069 --> 00:22:00.250 talking about Indigenous communities and Indigenous 00:22:00.250 --> 00:22:02.230 investors, there was a lot of questions that 00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:05.349 were sent my way in terms of, well, how is it 00:22:05.349 --> 00:22:07.130 that we work with Indigenous communities as a 00:22:07.130 --> 00:22:08.829 financial institution? How is it that we improve 00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:12.130 that relationship? So Cedar Leaf, to me, really 00:22:12.130 --> 00:22:15.509 represents this. a new era of getting greater 00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:17.829 integration of indigenous people in capital markets 00:22:17.829 --> 00:22:21.369 clinton his team have done an excellent job uh 00:22:21.369 --> 00:22:26.130 to really build up their presence uh in in dcm 00:22:26.130 --> 00:22:28.890 and and attract some talent and and grow some 00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:32.329 talent too so very very proud of of cedar leaf 00:22:32.329 --> 00:22:36.589 and it's it is the idea that yeah they'll they'll 00:22:36.589 --> 00:22:40.869 they're a competitor um but i mean i think the 00:22:40.869 --> 00:22:42.549 two of you have seen as well there's a lot of 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.380 collegiality amongst the people who do this work. 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:49.299 When I say do this work, the people, whether 00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:51.960 in a financial institutional law firm, you know, 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.279 consultancy and accounting firm, we want to see 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.140 each other succeed, but we want to push each 00:22:57.140 --> 00:22:59.640 other. And so I think Cedar Leaf is a great representation 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:04.559 of that. Thank you to Jonathan Davey for sharing 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.059 his insights with us. And thank you for viewing 00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:10.140 and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming 00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:13.140 2026 Summit. taking place on the 8th of April. 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.259 Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review 00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:19.119 on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.279 listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.