Welcome to Drum Beats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNatka, and my co -host Robert Branton
and I are joined today by Jonathan Davey, Managing
Director of Indigenous and Government Advisory
at Scotiabank, one of Canada's largest and most
international banks. Jonathan is... Haudenosaunee,
a proud member of the Lower Cayuga Nation of
the Six Nations of the Grand River. He came to
this role via a decade practicing Indigenous
law at Canada's Department of Justice, five years
leading Scotiabank's Indigenous Financial Services
Group, and most recently, a year working directly
alongside Scotiabank's President and CEO. He
now leads the bank's Indigenous and government
advisory practice within its global banking and
markets division, the first role of its kind
at a major Canadian bank. In this first episode
of a two -part episode of our conversation, you'll
hear how a decade inside Canada's legal system
shaped Jonathan's understanding of Indigenous
finance, why Scotiabank made a mutual investment
in building this practice from scratch, and what
the creation of Cedar Leaf Capital, Canada's
first Indigenous -owned broker -dealer, signals
about where Canada's capital markets are heading.
John Davey, Managing Director, Indigenous and
Government Advisory at Scotiabank. It's great
to have you on Drumbeats. Thanks for joining
us. Well, Mark, it's great to be here. Thanks
very much for having me, and I'm looking forward
to our conversation. Yes, great to have you,
John. Started this initiative a couple of years
ago, nearly three years ago. You were one of
the early supporters at Mansion House. Scotiabank,
of course, was one of our sponsors. And you were
one of the individuals who showed up to help
us build the reputation that we've continued
to strengthen and will continue to do so. So
great to have you on a podcast. Well, you're
being charitable, Mark. I was very happy to be
at that summit. You had a great delegation of
people come to London. uh so scotia makes a very
proud supporter of the summit and what you're
doing for the last three well this will be the
third year now uh but it's a testament to the
great thing that the two of you have built and
that we're we're happy to contribute to so having
discussions like this and having a summit where
we can meet with people who are coming together
to look at these great opportunities that certainly
impact indigenous peoples in canada and beyond
couldn't be more happy to be a part of it yeah
you and the scotia team have been Great supporters
from day one. We really value the partnership
that we've created, and we've been trying to
get you on drumbeats for a while. So it's finally
happened. We like to talk a little bit about
people's personal backgrounds and get to know
some of the human side. So first, start off by
telling us a little bit about yourself. Sure.
Well, I'm Haudenosaunee. I'm a proud member of
the Lower Cayuga, the Six Nations of the Grand
River, which is heritage I share with my father.
Really growing up, some of the values that were
really expressed to me as a young person that
I carry with me today have to do with honoring
your ancestors and making things better for future
generations. So in my professional life, I certainly
try to do that as well as in my personal life.
model such behavior for my kids and for other
young people who might be looking at me just
as I looked at people growing up to see how they
were doing things in a good way. So Rob, something
that you and I have in common is I'm a lawyer
by background. I started my career with the Department
of Justice in Canada and spent 10 years practicing
Indigenous law. working a lot with residential
school survivors and then doing more solicitor
-based work that had to do with development,
primarily on reserve involving First Nations.
And then about seven years ago, transitioned
to Scotiabank. They were looking for someone
to lead their Indigenous financial services group.
uh looking to weigh in on some of the discussions
that were happening around risk adjudication
when it came to lending to indigenous groups
primarily i mean it's since evolved quite a bit
since since then since those initial discussions
and i was in that position for about five years
uh before i was very fortunate to be asked to
join uh the office of our president and ceo scott
thompson so for the last two years i got to work
directly with scott in his office it was a great
learning experience for me uh really gave me
a lot of pride in the work that the bank is doing
especially towards indigenous communities and
that brings us to the last two months where i've
entered this new role of being the managing director
of indigenous and government advisory within
investment banking in our global banking and
markets group so that's a little bit about me
in terms of my professional history And then
I'm a husband and father and two little kids.
So like I said, always trying to model the right
behavior, knowing that they're going to be watching.
Wow. Thank you for that background. And I always
come back on these conversations. It's different
for me. And I really am pleased to be participating
and discussing with the founding peoples. of
the land called Canada and what I call home.
But I went to school, Iroquois Junior Public
School, and my First Nation was Cayuga. And looking
back, I never thought then that I would meet,
that it would come back to me in my later life.
And I think it comes back to this concept that's
talked about, about two -eyed seeing. And I think
if many Canadians looked around and actually
could see, all of around, they would see the
First Nations and the peoples of Canada of the
land called Turtle Island and their history and
artifacts and their perspective on things much
more strongly. So I'm always touched when people
tell their story and there's that connection.
I like that you referenced Turtle Island just
because I'm lower Cayuga. So if you look at the
traditional territory of the Cayuga, it's modern
day. A lot of it's modern day upstate New York.
And so, you know, as a brief aside, I met my
wife in upstate New York. I met her in Ithaca
and she's an American. And my father was born
American and then moved to Canada. It's interesting
to see that there's a border in between, obviously
now, but the traditional territories are... They
cover more ground than maybe we anticipate when
we talk about just something that's Canadian
-centric. The laws and regulations and some of
the financial transactions that we'd be looking
at are certainly probably more germane to Canada
right now. But the territories, the cultures,
the histories, the traditions, the languages
certainly span Turtle Island. And in my case,
there is a strong connection to the U .S. Yes,
I'm not sure if Schenectady is in that. southern
part of the territory. But that's where my ancestors
came from, who then came up when what was called
British North America was separated and the war
started. But I just think it comes back to those
who aren't from North America and Canada. You
know, again, reinforcing the Indigenous people
were there beforehand, living quite happily.
trading, going to war with each other sometime
like the Europeans. And there was a whole culture
and civilization throughout the Americas before
the Vikings or the Europeans arrived and changed
things. And those are very artificial borders
on the map. And we have a war going on in the
Middle East at the moment. And part of the issue
there is there were borders drawn that weren't
representative. So I think there's that whole
issue of Turtle Island as it is, and these are
superimposed borders and structures and now laws
and different sovereign countries on top of that
and within that in Canada, different sovereign
nations as well. But it's more complex and it's
more rich than people would think. And many people
would be surprised that before there were the
United States of America. They had the original
Canadians, which was New France, who were very
strong initially, had good relationships with
a lot of the Indigenous peoples and how that
all transitioned over time. So we don't know
what will happen in 200 years. But what we do
know will happen in the next years and decades
is the Canadian economy is not going to be successful
unless the Indigenous people are given the opportunity
to participate. and leverage their skills and
knowledge and give them access to capital because
some of the best business people today in Canada
are actually Indigenous. So it's an exciting
platform and stage that we're at at the country.
Certainly. Yes, and we're seeing people like
John take senior roles at major, some of the
biggest financial institutions in the country
and focus on the Indigenous economy and how to
play a bigger part. But I'm interested, John,
your career, you started as a lawyer, went to
the same law school that I did, the great Osgoode
Hall Law School at York University. And I had
always thought that I would start out doing some
of the similar work that you actually did. But
I ended up sort of going straight into corporate
law and capital markets work. But you started
out in a different way of justice and you've...
You veered into the capital market space. How
did that happen? And do you take that experience,
bring that with you into the capital market space?
Yeah. No, and I am glad you pointed that out,
Rob. Very proud alumnus of Osgoode Hall. And
it's a pleasure to share that distinction with
you. And like I said. In terms of my values,
you know, you honor the people that came before
you and make things better for future generations.
I wouldn't have the career path I've had, Rob,
if it wasn't for you and others like you who
have really shown a path and created a lot of
opportunities. So, you know, on a very personal
level, as well as a professional level, I thank
you for what you're doing. I think he just called
you old, Rob. It's not that, Mark. It's not that
at all. Experienced, very capable, very well
respected. But Rob's been like that, I think,
for his entire career. I don't think that's anything
new. No, I think that's his character. I think
you're right. If you had told me, Rob and Mark,
that I'd have this position at the bank when
I was starting out, I would have been surprised.
It certainly wasn't. If I'm being honest with
myself and with you, it wasn't a deliberate path
and it was more like deliberate decisions, always
anchored by this idea of where can I have the
greatest impact within our community? Like, how
is it that I can have the most positive impact
on future generations? And that's what led me
to Scotiabank in the first place. Just recognizing
that. Practicing law at the Department of Justice
was a great experience. I got to know the Indian
Act, First Nation Land Management Act, First
Nation Fiscal Management Act, all the associated
legislation, jurisprudence, regulations very
well. And I did enjoy being a lawyer. I wasn't
looking to leave that practice or leave that
vocation. But when I talked to people at Scotiabank
and I understood what they were looking for.
uh what i really commend scotia bank for is they
were willing to expand the pie i mean it started
out as more risk -based conversations how is
it that we de -risk some of the transactions
that we're looking at that involve indigenous
parties and it evolved into well how do we bring
more indigenous parties uh you know more integrated
into financial institutions so that it's not
a mystery and that we remove the vulnerability
i mean when it comes to honoring you know the
people before you making things better for future
generations What I've recognized is a huge part
of that is removing vulnerability. And so if
you look at any foreign investor that's looking
at what's happening in Canada right now, and
they're looking at projects of national interest,
and they're reading about Indigenous participation,
there's a vulnerability that would be felt there,
I'm assuming, where maybe they've never worked
with Indigenous parties before. They're not aware
of the network of legislation and regulations
that make it different to see an Indigenous investment
than a non -Indigenous investment. And so the
evolution of my career has really been, well,
let's really get to know the Indian Act. I went
to law school, Rob, under this idea that I was
going to lead the charge to repeal it. And having
great professors, having great classmates, and
having some great experience early on in my days
of practice and articling, I realized that the
Indian Act is a very vulnerable piece of legislation.
It can be... broken and exploited in different
ways. So it's less about repealing it and more
about how do you look at it as a series of limits
that can actually be broken or tested. And so
that's what's led me to my current role, where
when we look at what's happening federally, where
there's this greater appetite to have Indigenous
participation in equity transactions or to have
just greater involvement in Indigenous parties
and capital markets, whatever it may be. I still
have to apply that same lens as I did as a lawyer
to say, how is it that the legislative frameworks
and regulatory frameworks impact Indigenous parties
differently? And where is it that we have to
work around and where is it that we can work
through? And what was great about when I first
joined the bank was looking at credit structures,
credit structures for First Nations. So lending
to Indigenous groups, primarily First Nations,
seeing how the Indian Act, you know, we've got
different provisions that prevent. assets on
reserve for being used as collateral. So what
does that mean? Well, it means you have to look
elsewhere in terms of where to find the collateralized
value of an asset on reserve. Look at legal instruments,
leases, license permits. You look at cash flows.
You look at off -reserve assets. You look at
different systems that will allow you to get
to the same result or the same solution. So really,
the evolution of this has been, I try to be a
good problem solver. I try to look at things
as not impediments. potentially limits like you'd
see in an equation and just come up with solutions
that are oftentimes nuanced or outside the box.
And telling that to anybody that's never worked
with Indigenous groups before or in talking to
some of the proponents that might be looking
to sell assets or enter into equity arrangements
with Indigenous groups, something I say often
is just because it looks different doesn't mean
there's anything wrong with it. It's a matter
of explaining the complexity. And actually showing
a path through some of the different legislative
restrictions that have often impeded the access
to capital for Indigenous parties and the ability
to actually have meaningful relationships with
non -Indigenous parties. Just coming back to
when you transitioned, well, when you moved over
to Scotia, it must have been a time, you know,
what was your perspective that, you know, Scotia
was actually looking to do this because it wasn't
necessarily a top priority for every bank in
the country? Can you tell us a little bit more
about that? For sure, Mark. It was unlike any
experience I've ever had where we all know what
it's like to go through an interview process.
And I was certainly interviewing for the job,
but I had just as many questions for Scotiabank
as Scotiabank had for me. And I was very lucky
to meet some excellent leaders very early on
who shaped my way of thinking about, I'd say,
financial institutions generally, but certainly
Scotiabank. The refrain was, you know, the bank
needs to learn more about how to work with Indigenous
groups. And you coming from law need to learn
more about how to work, you know, how to be a
banker, how to work in finance. And so this idea
of let's make a mutual investment, you invest
in us and we invest in you. And it's been true,
Mark. Like that's the thing that's been great
about it is that I've certainly seen Scotiabank
invest in me. And I've done my best to invest
in Scotiabank to make sure that We have models
and forms that are set up so that others can
be invited in and contribute. You never want
one person in a large institution trying to dictate
or say what's the best thing for Indigenous peoples.
You need a lot of voices, you need a lot of perspective,
and you need subscription. And so I think Scotiabank
really did create that environment early on,
and I'm very happy to contribute to it as one
person. But it was an inviting role where it
came back down to that first principle is, I
think I can have a greater impact working at
the bank than I can in my current position at
that time, which was working at the Department
of Justice. The other reality, Mark, is that
it's heavy at times. It's heavy at times to be
a federal crown and be Indigenous. And there's
a lot of excellent... uh members of the federal
government who are indigenous who who do great
things for our community but it's it's a feeling
at times where you're saying okay i'm trying
to come at this in a good way but who i'm representing
is oftentimes you know the the group that's been
responsible for a lot of the decisions that have
been injurious to my community and so the opportunity
to step outside of that after 10 years was also
appealing not to say that i wouldn't be up for
the challenge or willing to do it. I just like
the idea that I can take the knowledge and experience
that I have, apply it from a different perspective
and not feel that weight that I'd felt before
where it's, you know, I never want somebody to
walk into a room and say, there's the lawyer
for Canada and feel like they're not going to
get somebody that's compassionate or that cares
about their perspective or about their worldview.
So it was a weighty decision, Mark, but I'm very
happy with the environment that Scotiabank has
created and continues to create. And we see that
with our partnerships externally, too. I mean,
the summit's a great example of that, where if
we see people doing things in a good way that
benefit the community, we want to support that
in whatever way we can. Tell us a little bit
about Cedar Leaf, how that came about, and maybe
talk about from an outside view. It looks like
Scotia has helped set up a competitor to one
of its business lines. For sure. So Cedar Leaf
Capital, led by Clint Davis, who's their CEO,
it's something I think everyone at Scotiabank
should be really proud of. Its origin, Rob, came
from market demand. We had people in market asking
whether there was an indigenous broker dealer.
Just did one exist at all? And the U .S. had
had some semblance of... broker dealers that
touched on Native American owned and operated
broker dealers. Who are those questions coming
from? Was it indigenous nations saying, is there
someone with a progressive, to call them progressive
firms who had been through the economic reconciliation
and got their act together? So Mark, it came
from clients. It came from clients of the bank
that were asking who typically there's one client
in particular. uh that was very focused on the
commitments they had made for their procurement
spend towards indigenous vendors and in some
it was it was an ambitious spend it was great
to see but they were having difficulty actually
rounding it out so they were saying we need more
avenues by which we can deploy capital towards
indigenous businesses and this seems to be a
natural way to do this when we go to the debt
markets to raise capital if there was an indigenous
broker dealer this could be innovative this could
be new but it could be very supportive of the
community and not only that the integration of
indigenous people within capital markets uh would
move forward tremendously and that's what we're
seeing happen with cedar leaf capital so uh clint
davis has done an outstanding job uh you know
they're they're you know an underwriter and placement
agent for fixed income securities and they're
providing financial advisory um And they've been
a part of, you know, they're a part of a number
of syndicates, but they were part of the Stonastic
Eight deal, Rob, which I know you know well.
And so we're seeing Cedar Leaf come up in more
opportunities to actually get Indigenous groups
more integrated in terms of capital markets when
it comes to these greater transactions that are
going to benefit more communities. Cedar Leaf,
you know, everything that... took place to get
it set up and get it the regulatory approval
it was a lot of hard work by a lot of dedicated
people it's another reason i'm very very proud
to work at scotia bank is because everyone came
together and it's one of those moments where
i love it When somebody comes and says, hey,
I don't fully understand this, nobody was making
them feel bad. Everyone would say, hey, we've
got to make sure you're up to speed. I know I
asked a lot of those questions. And when we were
talking about Indigenous communities and Indigenous
investors, there was a lot of questions that
were sent my way in terms of, well, how is it
that we work with Indigenous communities as a
financial institution? How is it that we improve
that relationship? So Cedar Leaf, to me, really
represents this. a new era of getting greater
integration of indigenous people in capital markets
clinton his team have done an excellent job uh
to really build up their presence uh in in dcm
and and attract some talent and and grow some
talent too so very very proud of of cedar leaf
and it's it is the idea that yeah they'll they'll
they're a competitor um but i mean i think the
two of you have seen as well there's a lot of
collegiality amongst the people who do this work.
When I say do this work, the people, whether
in a financial institutional law firm, you know,
consultancy and accounting firm, we want to see
each other succeed, but we want to push each
other. And so I think Cedar Leaf is a great representation
of that. Thank you to Jonathan Davey for sharing
his insights with us. And thank you for viewing
and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming
2026 Summit. taking place on the 8th of April.
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listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.