WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.710 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:16.370 I'm Mark McNacca, and today my co -host Rob Brandt 00:00:16.370 --> 00:00:19.170 sits down with Tracy Smith, President and CEO 00:00:19.170 --> 00:00:21.969 of Kiwi Wind Capital Incorporated, a private 00:00:21.969 --> 00:00:25.489 credit fund with a singular urgent focus, financing 00:00:25.489 --> 00:00:27.850 the construction of homes for Indigenous communities 00:00:27.850 --> 00:00:31.899 across Canada. Tracy is a Missinabi Cree entrepreneur 00:00:31.899 --> 00:00:35.079 with over two decades of experience raising capital, 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.179 building organizations, and navigating the complex 00:00:38.179 --> 00:00:41.679 financing landscape that governs unreserved lending. 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.000 She is also the founder of Outside Looking In, 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:47.979 a nationally recognized dance and youth leadership 00:00:47.979 --> 00:00:50.640 charity that has sent thousands of Indigenous 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:52.759 young people through to high school graduation. 00:00:53.619 --> 00:00:57.429 In their conversation, You'll discover why Canada's 00:00:57.429 --> 00:01:00.570 major banks have largely failed to serve on -reserve 00:01:00.570 --> 00:01:03.829 housing markets, and why that failure has created 00:01:03.829 --> 00:01:07.170 compelling private credit opportunity. You'll 00:01:07.170 --> 00:01:10.170 learn how KiwiWin's partnership with the Canada 00:01:10.170 --> 00:01:13.129 Mortgage and Housing Corporation, commonly called 00:01:13.129 --> 00:01:16.409 CMHC, provides investors with near -sovereign 00:01:16.409 --> 00:01:18.870 -backed security on social housing projects. 00:01:19.189 --> 00:01:22.810 And you'll understand why UK and European pension 00:01:22.810 --> 00:01:25.459 capitals already begin to look seriously. at 00:01:25.459 --> 00:01:28.079 funds like this one. For institutional investors, 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:30.400 the question is no longer whether Indigenous 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.579 partnerships create value. It's whether you understand 00:01:33.579 --> 00:01:36.200 the specific mechanisms well enough to act on 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.200 them. This conversation with Tracy is a strong 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:44.040 place to start. Tracy Smith, President and CEO 00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:47.959 of Kiwawin Capital. Thanks very much for joining 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:50.719 us today. Yeah, thanks for having me, Robin. 00:01:51.629 --> 00:01:54.469 This one will do. My co -host, Mark McNacca, 00:01:54.569 --> 00:01:59.650 is currently on leave. So it'll just be the two 00:01:59.650 --> 00:02:04.329 of us in conversation today. But let's get into 00:02:04.329 --> 00:02:06.370 it. And I want to ask you, Tracy, you're president 00:02:06.370 --> 00:02:09.650 and CEO of Kiwawin. We'll talk about Kiwawin 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:13.289 shortly, but tell us a little bit about your 00:02:13.289 --> 00:02:17.990 own personal journey to get to where you are 00:02:17.990 --> 00:02:23.659 today. Yeah, so my background, I'm from Missinabi 00:02:23.659 --> 00:02:27.560 Cree First Nation, Treaty 9, near kind of between 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:30.659 Wawa and Timmins area in Ontario. My mother's 00:02:30.659 --> 00:02:34.900 side is from there and we've spent a lot of great 00:02:34.900 --> 00:02:37.759 time as kids in the territory and I'm happy that 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:40.939 we can bring our kids there now too. It's been 00:02:40.939 --> 00:02:43.099 a journey to obviously get to the beginning of 00:02:43.099 --> 00:02:46.620 Kiwiwin. It seems like it's a... a long winding 00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:49.419 road, I guess, to get to where it is today. But 00:02:49.419 --> 00:02:54.360 yeah, I always spent, you know, over my career, 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.080 I, you know, I made it a personal choice that 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:01.379 I wanted to contribute, you know, my education, 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:07.240 my background to, you know, providing my knowledge 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.539 and experience and contributions to our community. 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.599 That was a very personal decision that I made 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.939 early on in my life. And I held to that. And 00:03:17.939 --> 00:03:21.460 it's kind of where how and why KiwiWin was brought 00:03:21.460 --> 00:03:26.979 to fruition over many years of thought and consultation 00:03:26.979 --> 00:03:31.439 with my own, you know, people that I go to for 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:36.560 advice. But it was, you know, I think because 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:41.210 I made that personal decision to to contribute 00:03:41.210 --> 00:03:44.689 and really kind of dedicate my, my purpose in 00:03:44.689 --> 00:03:46.849 my life to our community. I think that really 00:03:46.849 --> 00:03:50.069 helps me make decisions every day when I wake 00:03:50.069 --> 00:03:53.389 up every morning. You've got a really interesting 00:03:53.389 --> 00:03:58.870 mix of arts and business background. I want to 00:03:58.870 --> 00:04:02.889 talk about the, the art side and in your dancing 00:04:02.889 --> 00:04:05.849 and some of the organizations you've worked with 00:04:05.849 --> 00:04:11.199 there and founded. Yeah. So I, Since I was four, 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:15.879 I danced my whole life, and that was my passion 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.800 and my love, something that was, you know, my 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:23.620 obsession as a kid. And I was fortunate enough 00:04:23.620 --> 00:04:26.300 that my parents had the ability to put me in 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:29.839 dance classes all the way through to getting 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.839 a university degree in dance. That's how much 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.480 I loved it. As soon as I found out I could go 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:37.939 to university for dance, I think I found that 00:04:37.939 --> 00:04:41.779 out when I was in grade seven. through, I don't 00:04:41.779 --> 00:04:44.160 know how I picked up some sort of a York University 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.759 guide. I honestly don't know how I got it, but 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:50.019 I found out that you could go to university and 00:04:50.019 --> 00:04:52.480 get a degree in dance. And my mom always told 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:54.720 me I had to go to university. So we didn't have 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.540 a choice. We had to go to university. I have 00:04:58.540 --> 00:05:02.360 two older brothers. And that was my, I was set. 00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:09.089 I knew what I wanted to do to that point. You 00:05:09.089 --> 00:05:11.069 know, I was very entrepreneurial, too, though, 00:05:11.149 --> 00:05:14.750 as a kid and as a young adult. I, you know, I've 00:05:14.750 --> 00:05:17.350 officially, you know, publicly people see I started 00:05:17.350 --> 00:05:19.889 outside looking in on KiwiWin, but I've probably 00:05:19.889 --> 00:05:23.189 started 10 other companies before or around that. 00:05:23.250 --> 00:05:25.389 You know, whether I was cleaning people's houses, 00:05:25.529 --> 00:05:29.990 delivering newspapers, I've had many jobs that 00:05:29.990 --> 00:05:32.850 I've created in my own life. So very entrepreneurial. 00:05:32.850 --> 00:05:34.550 I come from an entrepreneurial family and both 00:05:34.550 --> 00:05:37.970 my brothers are entrepreneurs, too. So I think 00:05:37.970 --> 00:05:39.829 it's maybe just in the blood. No one ever told 00:05:39.829 --> 00:05:41.910 me to just be an entrepreneur. It's just I think 00:05:41.910 --> 00:05:45.730 it's been in the blood. But the dance, the arts 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:48.350 to business kind of transition isn't as big of 00:05:48.350 --> 00:05:51.149 a jump, you know, maybe to other people it is. 00:05:51.209 --> 00:05:52.829 But because I've always been entrepreneur and 00:05:52.829 --> 00:05:54.790 started my own and made my own money, a lot of 00:05:54.790 --> 00:05:59.029 times going into business and understanding how 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:02.310 business works wasn't a big jump for me to to 00:06:02.310 --> 00:06:06.360 make. How it really did happen when what people 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.579 see publicly is that I went from an arts organization 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:13.300 to business. But, you know, I once had my dance 00:06:13.300 --> 00:06:15.720 degree. That's when I was teaching a lot of dance 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.480 in various communities, reserves across the country. 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:21.259 I was in the kind of the prime of my career and 00:06:21.259 --> 00:06:24.420 performing a lot and all that kind of stuff. 00:06:24.459 --> 00:06:26.259 So people say, can you come teach our kids? So 00:06:26.259 --> 00:06:29.300 I used to do that quite a bit. And then when 00:06:29.300 --> 00:06:32.819 I graduated from with my dance degree. I knew 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:36.000 I wanted to go into business because I knew my 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.100 body could only handle so much. I already had 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:40.620 a couple of knee surgeries under me. I knew I 00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:44.360 wasn't going to dance very much longer. And sorry, 00:06:44.459 --> 00:06:46.379 what kind of dance are we talking about in a 00:06:46.379 --> 00:06:50.000 specific type? Yeah, so I did everything. I did 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:52.259 everything a dancer can do, ballet, tap jazz, 00:06:52.459 --> 00:06:55.959 modern, contemporary, hip hop, everything. But 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:57.579 when I went to different communities, I would 00:06:57.579 --> 00:06:59.800 only teach hip hop because hip hop was very accessible 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.720 to kids. You know, they don't need any special 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.560 shoes. They don't have to wear tights and leotards. 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:07.759 You know, just get into the gym and we'll turn 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.899 on some loud music and we'll have a lot of fun. 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.300 So when I went to reserves, hip hop was still 00:07:14.300 --> 00:07:17.240 a very big thing and kids love it, right? Dancing 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:21.720 to the music that's in today. So that's kind 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:23.800 of what I was doing when I transferred into my 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:26.879 MBA. And when I did my MBA, I focused on Indigenous 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.500 EcDev. But I was at the same time, I don't know 00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:34.579 why I did it, but at the same time, I did launch 00:07:34.579 --> 00:07:37.199 Outside Looking In, but not knowing I was creating 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.519 a company. So I just went to a reserve one year 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.180 and I got hired to go there for a week and work 00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:46.860 with kids. But it turned into a life -changing 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:49.399 journey for me. I don't know why that community, 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:51.910 but... When I got there, I said to the kids, 00:07:51.970 --> 00:07:53.769 okay, we're going to dance every day and we're 00:07:53.769 --> 00:07:57.529 going to put on a big show on Friday and we're 00:07:57.529 --> 00:07:59.949 going to perform for the community. So that was 00:07:59.949 --> 00:08:02.410 our mission for the week. And when we did that, 00:08:02.550 --> 00:08:05.029 the community, like we advertised, you know, 00:08:05.089 --> 00:08:07.230 this really small remote community, no one knew 00:08:07.230 --> 00:08:09.410 what was, no one knew we were doing this except 00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:12.790 them. And the community all came out and the 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:14.750 routines we could do were very short because 00:08:14.750 --> 00:08:18.290 I only had a week with two sets of kids. But 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:20.670 at the end of the performance, you know, a lot 00:08:20.670 --> 00:08:22.889 of the community had tears in their eyes. The 00:08:22.889 --> 00:08:26.949 kids were very emotional. And that sense of accomplishment 00:08:26.949 --> 00:08:30.389 was quite strong. And there's in our communities, 00:08:30.449 --> 00:08:33.389 there's not a lot of platforms for parents to 00:08:33.389 --> 00:08:36.149 be to cheer their kids on and be proud of their 00:08:36.149 --> 00:08:39.750 kids or and kids want that same ability to show 00:08:39.750 --> 00:08:42.250 their parents what they can do. And that was 00:08:42.250 --> 00:08:45.470 a very that was kind of the impetus of I'm like, 00:08:45.509 --> 00:08:48.230 Jesus. If people think this is a really big deal, 00:08:48.330 --> 00:08:50.049 because I, you know, I did it my whole life. 00:08:51.330 --> 00:08:53.309 Like, I could do this so much bigger. I've performed 00:08:53.309 --> 00:08:55.850 in big stages. I've, you know, performed all 00:08:55.850 --> 00:08:58.450 over. So I said, that's kind of like, let's just 00:08:58.450 --> 00:09:00.110 try this. Why don't we, hey, community, why don't 00:09:00.110 --> 00:09:02.490 we just go do this? And, you know, but I'm going 00:09:02.490 --> 00:09:05.029 to put some strings attached. And if you guys 00:09:05.029 --> 00:09:06.769 got to stay in school, though, this community 00:09:06.769 --> 00:09:09.409 had a high dropout rate. They only had, they 00:09:09.409 --> 00:09:10.970 didn't have really any high school graduates 00:09:10.970 --> 00:09:15.190 in that community when I was there. the next 00:09:15.190 --> 00:09:17.990 year I said let's just try it and you know I 00:09:17.990 --> 00:09:20.210 came up with the name and then you know I was 00:09:20.210 --> 00:09:22.509 I was working at the bank by that time I was 00:09:22.509 --> 00:09:25.129 actually working full -time at I think T I don't 00:09:25.129 --> 00:09:28.169 know if I was at BMO or TD at that time I can't 00:09:28.169 --> 00:09:30.529 write it was kind of a blur but it was I was 00:09:30.529 --> 00:09:33.129 working full -time and traveling to this community 00:09:33.129 --> 00:09:36.850 every three weeks to teach the kids and um we 00:09:36.850 --> 00:09:38.990 were tracking the kids attendance all that and 00:09:38.990 --> 00:09:42.669 then by the time April came, I started with 30 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:44.990 kids. And by the time we finished, we had five 00:09:44.990 --> 00:09:48.409 in Toronto to perform in a big show. And I produced 00:09:48.409 --> 00:09:50.590 a show, hired, you know, paid for a theater, 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:54.309 all that. But it was, it was, that's kind of 00:09:54.309 --> 00:09:56.570 how, when I, it was something, it was a company 00:09:56.570 --> 00:09:57.950 I created, but I didn't know I was creating a 00:09:57.950 --> 00:09:59.529 company because, but when people said, I want 00:09:59.529 --> 00:10:01.570 to write you a check, I'm like, well, I don't 00:10:01.570 --> 00:10:03.889 want the check. I got to, I got to come up with 00:10:03.889 --> 00:10:06.370 a company name. So that's kind of how, and then 00:10:06.370 --> 00:10:08.350 it became, it was a big success that first year. 00:10:08.429 --> 00:10:10.580 We had a big audience and. Other communities 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:11.960 are saying, hey, we want you to do it here. So 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.000 it's just something, an idea that steamrolled 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:16.200 into something, you know, that turned into a, 00:10:16.220 --> 00:10:18.759 it was a business. And then once we realized, 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.840 well, we're accepting all this money, we're not 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:23.080 trying to make money here, then I turned it into 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.740 a charity. So that's kind of how it all, it was 00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:28.139 kind of just one thing after another. And then 00:10:28.139 --> 00:10:29.940 eventually, like, yeah, I'm like, okay, this 00:10:29.940 --> 00:10:32.179 is an organization now. This is not serious, 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:36.080 you know? It's amazing what that, yeah, to start 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:40.009 out with, say, well, let's... Let's turn on some 00:10:40.009 --> 00:10:42.669 music and have some fun in the gym and turn that 00:10:42.669 --> 00:10:47.110 into what an organization like Outside Looking 00:10:47.110 --> 00:10:52.809 In is today. But the stories, and clearly it's 00:10:52.809 --> 00:10:55.269 a lot more than just about having fun or learning 00:10:55.269 --> 00:10:59.509 some new dance moves. Yeah, that's right. It's 00:10:59.509 --> 00:11:01.950 really having a community impact and a personal 00:11:01.950 --> 00:11:06.370 impact on the kids who are involved in their 00:11:06.370 --> 00:11:12.159 families even. I'm not, unfortunately not the 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:16.940 dancer my wife wishes I was, but it all sounds 00:11:16.940 --> 00:11:20.879 very familiar to the sport and what sport can 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:25.299 do for youth and communities and everything else. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:29.360 Maybe talk about what outside looking in is today. 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.700 Yeah, so I like I've been away from the organization 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:35.600 for a couple of years, but over the, you know, 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.720 17 years I was involved. Eventually, we turned 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.139 it into a high school credit dance program that's 00:11:42.139 --> 00:11:44.259 accredited across the country. So because the 00:11:44.259 --> 00:11:49.440 kids are dancing, you need 110 hours of design 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.919 curriculum to issue a credit to any kid in high 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:55.059 school. So it's a grade 7 to 12 high school credit 00:11:55.059 --> 00:11:57.519 program. So even if kids are in grade 8, we can 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.600 issue them a grade 9 credit, which is so amazing. 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:03.059 Because that's really what inspires them to keep 00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:05.519 going. In Indigenous communities, there's such 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.120 a high dropout rate after grade 8. A lot of kids 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:10.700 don't go on after grade eight. So if we can get 00:12:10.700 --> 00:12:12.440 them enticed to say, hey, look, you got your 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:15.679 grade nine. You got a grade 10. They're more 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:19.179 entitled to keep going. So it's a high school 00:12:19.179 --> 00:12:21.639 credit dance program. There's we have like there's 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:23.779 leadership programs that we created in partnership 00:12:23.779 --> 00:12:28.080 with. It was called RBC at the time. So I think 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.419 RBC is still involved. You know, I think Sun 00:12:31.419 --> 00:12:34.919 Life now is involved with introducing our kids 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:37.860 to technology and careers. So there's a whole, 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:41.039 you know, when we we were really good the first 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.279 five years getting kids to graduate, we're getting 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.480 them to graduation. And then we found even after 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:47.399 that, they weren't they weren't going on to anything. 00:12:47.500 --> 00:12:49.240 So that's what the impetus of like, OK, well, 00:12:49.299 --> 00:12:51.080 now we need to start talking to them about what 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.139 happens after high school. So then you get all 00:12:54.139 --> 00:12:56.600 these other organizations partnering with with 00:12:56.600 --> 00:12:59.860 the charity. Right. And. And it's just kind of 00:12:59.860 --> 00:13:02.159 evolved into, you know, they still do the big 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.379 show in Toronto every year. And it's just amazing. 00:13:05.620 --> 00:13:07.399 You know, I'm still I still keep in touch with 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.059 a lot of the kids who are now, you know, I met 00:13:10.059 --> 00:13:12.220 them when they're 11. I still look at them like 00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:16.019 they're 11, but they're like 30. So but it's 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:18.480 nice to see their development and their careers, 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:22.179 you know, blossoming as a result of the program. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:28.279 I bet it is. And we digress a little bit because 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:32.519 we're focused on Indigenous transactions, interesting 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:39.340 business opportunities. But we also love to hear 00:13:39.340 --> 00:13:41.220 the personal stories and the passion and the 00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:45.659 community impacts. And so maybe talk a little 00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:49.419 bit about how you go from working on Bay Street 00:13:49.419 --> 00:13:52.460 and some of the ideas. Clearly entrepreneurial, 00:13:52.779 --> 00:13:56.200 trying a bunch of things, but it all culminates 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.200 in Kiwi Capital. So maybe tell us a bit about 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.019 that story. You know, before I started outside 00:14:05.019 --> 00:14:07.700 looking in, I was actually going to go into housing. 00:14:07.820 --> 00:14:10.659 I was focused on that. It's just that, you know, 00:14:10.659 --> 00:14:13.559 my life kind of I let my life kind of take me 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:15.860 to where things were going and it took me that 00:14:15.860 --> 00:14:18.299 way. But I was always very passionate about housing. 00:14:19.710 --> 00:14:21.929 And even more so, I've actually, while I was 00:14:21.929 --> 00:14:27.309 running the charity, because of the situations 00:14:27.309 --> 00:14:32.110 and the communities that I've been to, stayed 00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:35.409 in many, many over the years, everything starts 00:14:35.409 --> 00:14:38.409 at home, right? And there's so many kids and 00:14:38.409 --> 00:14:42.789 there's so many families that I've seen because 00:14:42.789 --> 00:14:44.789 I, you know, I used to talk to kids a lot too, 00:14:44.889 --> 00:14:47.490 right? How come you're not at school today? Well... 00:14:47.789 --> 00:14:49.549 I didn't really have a good sleep last night 00:14:49.549 --> 00:14:53.490 because, you know, something was broken or we 00:14:53.490 --> 00:14:56.090 were woken up by this or, you know, like there's, 00:14:56.090 --> 00:14:59.970 you know, I had a kid too that used to say there's 00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.309 just mice running around constantly in our house 00:15:02.309 --> 00:15:05.129 and I just can't sleep. So there's, I have many 00:15:05.129 --> 00:15:07.409 of those kinds of stories, which probably was 00:15:07.409 --> 00:15:10.450 the motivation. You know, everything starts at 00:15:10.450 --> 00:15:13.629 home. You have a healthy home. You might have 00:15:13.629 --> 00:15:17.340 a better chance at a healthier life. And I don't 00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:23.519 think the passion for KiwiWin can come from a 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:27.820 more unique spot because of the life that I've 00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:32.240 lived so far. Yes, it's a private credit fund. 00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:34.299 There's lots of financial terms. It's a very 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:36.679 sophisticated thing. But when you get down to 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:42.519 it, it's quite simple why we're doing this. People 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:44.360 don't have, a lot of people who I deal with on 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:46.779 the investor side have no experience in our communities. 00:15:47.179 --> 00:15:49.659 And to try and explain things like that to them, 00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:54.620 you really have to try to tell them why. And 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:57.379 I think Canadians generally, I think Canadian, 00:15:57.399 --> 00:15:59.379 I know some of our questions today are on the 00:15:59.379 --> 00:16:02.940 international side, but the Canadian public and 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:06.440 the Canadian investor base has seen these stories, 00:16:06.539 --> 00:16:09.259 right, for many years on the housing crisis in 00:16:09.259 --> 00:16:12.309 our communities. Well before... The Canadian 00:16:12.309 --> 00:16:14.210 government has claimed there's a housing crisis 00:16:14.210 --> 00:16:16.990 for the average Canadian. Like, it's been a housing 00:16:16.990 --> 00:16:19.230 crisis in Indigenous communities for 50 years. 00:16:19.769 --> 00:16:22.529 And there still very much is. This is nothing 00:16:22.529 --> 00:16:25.529 new. I didn't start this because of a Canadian 00:16:25.529 --> 00:16:27.669 housing crisis. I started because this crisis 00:16:27.669 --> 00:16:33.220 has been going on for so long. I always felt 00:16:33.220 --> 00:16:36.059 through when I raised capital, I had been raising 00:16:36.059 --> 00:16:38.659 money for 20 years because of the charity. That's, 00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:42.519 you know, I got very good at doing that. I know 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:48.000 how to, you know, pitch a idea and sell it and 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.100 actually use that money and do something good. 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:55.379 KiwiWin's no different. The idea came when... 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:57.860 I saw enough people say to me, you know, I want 00:16:57.860 --> 00:16:59.620 to give to your charity, but man, it would be 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:02.200 really nice to like put my, not just put my money 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.759 in a GIC at the bank. It'd be nice to put my 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:08.720 money towards something that I can see. And actually 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.599 I could get my money back and get a return. I 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.799 said, yeah, it would be great, wouldn't it? And 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:14.700 that's kind of how these conversations happen 00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:17.480 with people that I know who have money, who want 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:19.140 to do something with their money. That's just 00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:21.579 not plopping it somewhere and getting a return, 00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:25.720 you know, like a passive investment, right? That's 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.019 really was kind of the impetus to actually start. 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:31.519 I had this idea for QA when back in 2014, pitched 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.539 this idea, this exact fund idea to two banks 00:17:34.539 --> 00:17:37.259 and it just went over their heads. They couldn't 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:41.160 get their head around it. So I kind of sat on 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:43.259 that for a few years because I had other things 00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:46.180 I was doing, including having a couple of kids. 00:17:46.420 --> 00:17:48.140 So I just said, I'm going to wait until my kids 00:17:48.140 --> 00:17:51.740 are a bit older and then maybe start this. And 00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:54.099 I was lucky enough that I had a seed investor. 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:57.000 who committed to me 10 years ago, said, when 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.000 you want to start it, we'll seed it. So I was 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.619 very fortunate in that way to have seed money 00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:06.779 to actually start the company. But that's really 00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:10.740 why, you know, it comes from a very logical place 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:15.099 to me to do this. I think there's a lot of pent 00:18:15.099 --> 00:18:17.319 -up demand for this kind of opportunity because 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.019 we hear from a very unique investor base that... 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.160 It has to be an investor, though, that actually 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:28.220 wants to make the move from passive investing 00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:31.099 to impact investing. There's not a difference 00:18:31.099 --> 00:18:33.599 there, except you get a return and you actually 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:35.559 get to know where your money went and who it 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.059 impacted, which I think is actually a better 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:43.980 investment than just a passive GIC, put it in 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:46.500 a passive investor. If you really are interested 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:49.390 in that kind of... that kind of investment, then 00:18:49.390 --> 00:18:51.390 I think hopefully more of these kinds of opportunities 00:18:51.390 --> 00:18:55.190 come up, right? So KiwiWin is focused on providing 00:18:55.190 --> 00:19:01.670 credit to build homes on reserve, off reserve, 00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:06.410 First Nations communities, Indigenous communities. 00:19:06.910 --> 00:19:11.029 What is the objective? So the priority is to 00:19:11.029 --> 00:19:16.539 build our... Main focus is on reserve in First 00:19:16.539 --> 00:19:20.539 Nations communities, in UIT as well. We prioritize 00:19:20.539 --> 00:19:24.079 that first. Because off -reserve projects are 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:27.400 a lot easier to finance for banks, and I call 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.619 banks kind of lazy lenders. They like to just 00:19:29.619 --> 00:19:33.599 follow a formula and just do what kind of is 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.859 in the manual, right? Banks aren't creative that 00:19:35.859 --> 00:19:40.920 way. So on -reserve lending is not very different 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.640 than off -reserve lending. but banks seem to 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:47.400 think it is. So because banks don't necessarily 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.799 like to look at on reserve, that's where we're 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:53.420 playing is mostly in that market because we think 00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:56.039 it's very easy to lend on reserve and we're getting 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.700 a lot of traction that way. So that's kind of 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:04.039 our priority right now. We did in the early days 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:05.720 when I started the company, I did reach out to 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.599 CMHC asking, you know, we're raising a bunch 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.759 of private money and we want to bring it. Is 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:12.319 there a way to partner with you? And that's kind 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.440 of how we started partnering with CMHC was through 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.180 their social housing program. So the way our 00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:20.599 partnership works with them is they allocate 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:24.279 annually to a social housing program. And because 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.500 it's only an annual program, we say, well, if 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:29.390 you're allocating this year. then we'll allocate 00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:32.589 the next two years, our money, to that same community. 00:20:33.069 --> 00:20:36.049 So instead of a community having to build and 00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:39.210 plan yearly, they can actually build three years 00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.829 of homes in that first year. And then CMHC comes 00:20:42.829 --> 00:20:46.069 and takes us out of our position once the homes 00:20:46.069 --> 00:20:50.970 are built. So we can lend directly to First Nation 00:20:50.970 --> 00:20:54.410 or we lend through the CMHC housing program as 00:20:54.410 --> 00:20:58.690 well. And let's talk a little bit about why the 00:20:58.690 --> 00:21:02.430 need is mind -boggling. The state of housing 00:21:02.430 --> 00:21:07.109 on reserves across Canada and in the far north 00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:11.769 is pretty shocking in a lot of cases. So there's 00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:16.109 huge demand there. Maybe talk a little bit about 00:21:16.109 --> 00:21:21.950 why traditional lending or the traditional lenders 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:28.160 have not taken up that. that market or find it 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:33.579 a difficult market to lend in to. And why you 00:21:33.579 --> 00:21:38.579 think Kiwi, as you said, you're finding it's 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:41.119 not much different than off -reserve lending 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:45.019 and more straightforward than people would think 00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:48.759 when they hear about Indian Act issues with security 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:53.140 and mortgages. Tell us a little bit about that. 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:55.940 What I like to kind of say is there's usually 00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:59.480 a capacity mismatch between lenders and First 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:04.160 Nations, right? There's not a lot of capacity 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.160 at banks. And I'm talking human resources that 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:12.160 know who they're lending to. So you have people 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.140 in the banks that are hired to lend. And I know 00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:17.319 this because I worked as a lender in a bank. 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:22.390 They have no idea how First Nations work. They've 00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:25.029 probably never been to a community and they have 00:22:25.029 --> 00:22:26.990 no idea how to read the financial statements 00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:31.049 in our communities. So all of that makes for, 00:22:31.130 --> 00:22:33.750 and when you're up against targets as a lender 00:22:33.750 --> 00:22:36.410 to lend out so much money, you're going to go 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:39.470 with the easiest hanging fruit, lowest hanging 00:22:39.470 --> 00:22:43.930 fruit close to you, right? So, and, you know, 00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:45.789 banks look back at their policies. Their policies 00:22:45.789 --> 00:22:49.269 are old, right? They're looking at policies developed 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:52.839 in the 60s and 70s still. Like no one has updated 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.420 these policies. So when you go back as a lender 00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:57.140 and you're looking at, oh, geez, there's a thing 00:22:57.140 --> 00:22:59.519 called the Indian Act. And oh, my gosh, we can't 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.240 repatriate an asset off reserve. Holy geez, this 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.359 is just so risky. And banks like to lend on against 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:08.859 land, right? They can understand grabbing that, 00:23:09.019 --> 00:23:13.099 you know, being able to grab the land after. 00:23:13.220 --> 00:23:14.980 And once they figure, oh, gee, we can't grab 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:17.779 that land. Well, oh, my gosh, we just can't do 00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:20.809 it. I'm not saying all banks are like that. I 00:23:20.809 --> 00:23:23.450 think some banks are getting better, but I would 00:23:23.450 --> 00:23:26.509 say it's in pockets because there's still a nightmare 00:23:26.509 --> 00:23:30.710 story I heard when I was out in Saskatoon that, 00:23:30.789 --> 00:23:35.869 you know, one of the big five banks, there's 00:23:35.869 --> 00:23:38.509 a gentleman that wanted to get a house on a reserve 00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:41.250 and the band said, okay, sure, we'll guarantee 00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:44.549 it for you. So the guy went to the bank, said, 00:23:44.609 --> 00:23:48.299 my band's going to guarantee my loan. And they 00:23:48.299 --> 00:23:51.380 said, okay, sure, we'll lend to you. But they 00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:55.359 made the guy get a modular home and put it on 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.019 almost like wooden stilts so that they could 00:23:59.019 --> 00:24:02.500 go and grab that house back from him should they 00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:04.779 require it. And this is only five years ago. 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.240 So that's what I'm talking about. There are pockets 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:12.099 of good lenders. I find BC is a little bit of 00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:13.920 a different beast. People love to look at BC 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:17.509 as a... as a great place, but it's easier out 00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:19.349 there, right? It's, it's a little bit different 00:24:19.349 --> 00:24:23.630 than other places. Leased land is a thing now 00:24:23.630 --> 00:24:25.829 where people like to, well, just lease your land 00:24:25.829 --> 00:24:28.230 and, you know, then, but the only reason why 00:24:28.230 --> 00:24:29.829 you're doing that is so that the bank can get 00:24:29.829 --> 00:24:32.369 comfort. It's not because it's giving, you know, 00:24:32.390 --> 00:24:34.710 a lot of benefits to the communities. It's that 00:24:34.710 --> 00:24:37.930 the banks are getting comfort that way if they're, 00:24:37.930 --> 00:24:42.160 if they're lending on leased land, right? So 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:44.299 there's a huge, and I don't see the banks really 00:24:44.299 --> 00:24:46.660 doing it. And I've watched and I've worked with 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:49.119 them over the years in terms of changing their 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:53.240 mentality towards this. I think it's inexcusable 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:56.799 that the banks love taking money on deposit from 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.119 our communities, but they don't go ahead and 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:01.380 return that back in the form of loans, right? 00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:03.940 There wouldn't be a housing crisis if the banks 00:25:03.940 --> 00:25:06.640 actually came up with a strategy on, and it's 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.519 not hard. You just need some smart people sitting 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.660 around a table for a year or two to put the strategy 00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:14.579 together to figure out how can we deploy more 00:25:14.579 --> 00:25:17.140 capital to Indigenous communities to build homes. 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:19.900 It's really not hard, but there's no will, and 00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.279 it has to come from the top, and the top isn't 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.279 talking about it. So until that happens, unfortunately, 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.339 companies like mine have to exist to get more 00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:33.059 private money directed at these opportunities. 00:25:35.069 --> 00:25:39.589 And you closed a small first fund, was it two 00:25:39.589 --> 00:25:43.450 years ago, $10 million? And now signed another 00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:48.250 commitment with a group called Van City. Tell 00:25:48.250 --> 00:25:51.970 us about that. Yeah, so we're about to do a final 00:25:51.970 --> 00:25:56.549 close April 1st. That's our goal is to do a final 00:25:56.549 --> 00:25:58.950 close. We think we'll probably do a final close 00:25:58.950 --> 00:26:02.589 close to $15 to $20 million for this first fund. 00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:06.529 We did have, we just announced our partnership 00:26:06.529 --> 00:26:10.890 with Vancity Bank, investment bank, where any 00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.509 deal that we do that maybe CMHC isn't going to 00:26:13.509 --> 00:26:17.009 do as a takeout and it's a larger project or 00:26:17.009 --> 00:26:20.609 then Vancity will be our takeout partner because 00:26:20.609 --> 00:26:22.490 we're not a long -term lender. We're there to 00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:25.789 literally either have First Nations if they wanted 00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:28.230 to purchase homes or they want to build and construct, 00:26:28.289 --> 00:26:30.569 design, build, construct their own. Once it gets 00:26:30.569 --> 00:26:33.980 to final completion. then that's where we offload 00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:38.259 the loan to Vancity in that regard. So we're 00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:40.839 there for that. The hardest financing to get 00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:43.720 for communities is the design to final completion, 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:47.980 that construction dollars. Usually they're having 00:26:47.980 --> 00:26:51.880 to wait to hear back from ISK or CMHC on if they 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.769 get the money. Some communities await decades 00:26:55.769 --> 00:26:58.529 for money from, and, you know, they get a little 00:26:58.529 --> 00:27:00.430 bit of money every year, but it's not enough 00:27:00.430 --> 00:27:02.430 to even construct sometimes one or two homes. 00:27:02.509 --> 00:27:05.750 So we're there to give that money to at least 00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:08.069 get it done, get people in the homes, and then 00:27:08.069 --> 00:27:11.450 it goes to a long -term lender like a Vancity. 00:27:12.910 --> 00:27:16.190 And what kind of risk are you taking? Is Kiwetwin 00:27:16.190 --> 00:27:20.210 taking in situations like that? And is there 00:27:20.210 --> 00:27:23.859 a secret sauce for security? structures that 00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:29.059 you can talk about? Yeah, every community is 00:27:29.059 --> 00:27:30.759 going to be different, right? Every community 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.619 we look at, we look at where we can get security. 00:27:34.819 --> 00:27:38.000 And there's 100 % always, all the time, there's 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.500 a place to get security. You just have to work 00:27:41.500 --> 00:27:43.579 through the process to see where you can get 00:27:43.579 --> 00:27:47.119 that comfort. Some communities, it's really easy. 00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.000 And some communities, it's a little bit more 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:52.890 difficult, depending on cash flows or other revenues 00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:55.369 that they have or other assets that you can use 00:27:55.369 --> 00:27:59.250 to lend against. But in terms of, you know, the 00:27:59.250 --> 00:28:01.009 only other risk I would say there is, is just 00:28:01.009 --> 00:28:04.730 basic construction project risk, right? We want 00:28:04.730 --> 00:28:07.230 to get the project started and we want to get 00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:09.930 it built because that's what our investors want 00:28:09.930 --> 00:28:11.650 to see. They want to know that their money went 00:28:11.650 --> 00:28:14.809 to actually constructing a completed home and 00:28:14.809 --> 00:28:18.069 people are living in that home. So that's the 00:28:18.069 --> 00:28:21.990 most important part. for us is that project risk 00:28:21.990 --> 00:28:24.329 and managing that, you know, all the way to the 00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:28.509 completion. Right. And all relatively new, but 00:28:28.509 --> 00:28:30.869 do you have shovels in the ground or completed 00:28:30.869 --> 00:28:34.809 homes that you can point to today? With just 00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:37.150 our final close, we're actually about to get 00:28:37.150 --> 00:28:41.069 ready to start a couple projects. One's in Manitoba 00:28:41.069 --> 00:28:49.180 and it's a $25 million deal. 30 homes with 200 00:28:49.180 --> 00:28:52.859 -unit infrastructure being constructed. So we're 00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:54.759 building out the infrastructure for 200 homes, 00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:59.059 but then 30 of the modular units will go in as 00:28:59.059 --> 00:29:04.099 well. But what's so good is that the infrastructure 00:29:04.099 --> 00:29:06.359 is going to be there so that as they get more 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.259 money or as they want to, they just put more 00:29:09.259 --> 00:29:13.380 homes into their community, right? This community 00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:18.789 has a lot of... that are deemed unlivable. So 00:29:18.789 --> 00:29:21.490 there'll be a nice transfer from those homes 00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:25.609 into these brand new homes. And it's only going 00:29:25.609 --> 00:29:27.710 to be probably life -changing for a lot of the 00:29:27.710 --> 00:29:29.670 community members, right, in that way. To have 00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:32.190 200 new homes over, say, the next five years 00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:34.910 is going to be unbelievable. It's almost like 00:29:34.910 --> 00:29:37.529 a brand new community, right? And then we have 00:29:37.529 --> 00:29:40.230 lots of Section 95 projects that we're looking 00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:43.880 at in the next month with CMHC. Communities, 00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:46.099 especially from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, we're 00:29:46.099 --> 00:29:50.059 looking at prioritizing for this round. So, yeah, 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.880 no shortage of housing projects. What's the Section 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:57.839 95 project? So Section 95 project is what I was 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.220 saying before in terms of the CMHC. That's their 00:30:01.220 --> 00:30:03.180 social housing program. It's been around for 00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:07.119 50 years. It was, you know, it was developed 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:10.529 way back when, you know, it was. I think it was 00:30:10.529 --> 00:30:12.069 under the Kretchen government, actually, they 00:30:12.069 --> 00:30:16.789 developed that program with the advice of a lot 00:30:16.789 --> 00:30:19.650 of the chiefs and leaders at the time. It's a 00:30:19.650 --> 00:30:21.950 successful program in the sense that they haven't 00:30:21.950 --> 00:30:26.410 had any defaults. The hard part about the program 00:30:26.410 --> 00:30:30.329 is that they have a restrictive budget. So it's 00:30:30.329 --> 00:30:34.329 only $150 million, and it's supposed to be for 00:30:34.329 --> 00:30:36.940 the benefit of... all of our communities across 00:30:36.940 --> 00:30:39.660 the country. So when you do the math on 150 million, 00:30:39.819 --> 00:30:45.779 630 communities, you get 0 .6 houses built. So 00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:49.619 I know CMHC advocates the federal government 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:53.240 to increase the section 95 budget. Honestly, 00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:55.980 I don't know when it was last increased. It might've 00:30:55.980 --> 00:31:00.119 been about 15 years ago, but it's just not enough. 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:05.509 And so what CMHC does is they look at the the 00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:09.630 less riskiest communities to lend to. So communities 00:31:09.630 --> 00:31:14.210 that are financially healthy, they build projects, 00:31:14.390 --> 00:31:18.069 they complete them. So it's a very risk -averse 00:31:18.069 --> 00:31:23.170 program. And we're there just to allow communities 00:31:23.170 --> 00:31:27.029 to build more faster, advance it versus having 00:31:27.029 --> 00:31:31.490 to wait. Next year to reapply again and reapply 00:31:31.490 --> 00:31:33.849 again. We'll advance our funds in advance so 00:31:33.849 --> 00:31:37.430 they can build three years of homes in one year. 00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:42.630 Well, it sounds like there's endless demand for 00:31:42.630 --> 00:31:47.869 what you're setting out to do. And I noticed 00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:50.069 that another, I don't know how similar they are, 00:31:50.109 --> 00:31:53.190 but Raven's Outcome Fund just recently closed 00:31:53.190 --> 00:31:57.910 and raised some money doing similar sorts of 00:31:57.910 --> 00:32:01.710 things. Is there an opportunity for, have you 00:32:01.710 --> 00:32:04.109 had interest from investors outside of Canada 00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:09.289 in what you're doing at Keywaven? Yeah, a couple 00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:11.529 of the banks have come to me and said that they 00:32:11.529 --> 00:32:15.569 have investors and pension plans, you know, especially 00:32:15.569 --> 00:32:19.230 in London. You know, one of the banks I'm talking 00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:24.329 to has a large pension. That's all he deals with 00:32:24.329 --> 00:32:26.710 is pensions. And I think that he lives and works 00:32:26.710 --> 00:32:30.339 in the UK. He says there's a lot more interest 00:32:30.339 --> 00:32:33.000 and discussions around coming into funds like 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:37.839 these. I don't think it's widespread yet. It 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:41.200 seems very early days that people are discussing 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:44.440 and dabbling in it. It'd be nice to see, you 00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.880 know, more money coming in and being put to work 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.339 faster. I don't know, but I haven't had, although 00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.579 I haven't really reached out to investors beyond 00:32:54.579 --> 00:32:58.359 Canada. Well, you should think about coming to 00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.599 London for our next summit in April if you're 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:09.619 not already booked. But there is quite a developed 00:33:09.619 --> 00:33:14.440 ESG social impact investment community over there. 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.640 And I don't think they think about Canada necessarily 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:21.180 as a destination for those types of projects. 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:27.670 And so we believe there's a lot of capital. And 00:33:27.670 --> 00:33:30.589 part of the purpose of that summit will be our 00:33:30.589 --> 00:33:32.930 third annual summit. Part of the purpose of that 00:33:32.930 --> 00:33:35.609 is to get some of the stories like yours out 00:33:35.609 --> 00:33:38.750 to the investment community there and make them 00:33:38.750 --> 00:33:41.970 aware of what is happening in Canada and how 00:33:41.970 --> 00:33:45.329 things have changed and some of the exciting 00:33:45.329 --> 00:33:51.029 investment opportunities. Yeah, no, I agree. 00:33:51.349 --> 00:33:54.730 Actually, I did talk to somebody in Scotland, 00:33:55.009 --> 00:34:01.789 somebody who runs family offices. And it kind 00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:04.569 of seemed like he, like when you say, I think 00:34:04.569 --> 00:34:06.609 a lot of people don't think of Canada, I think 00:34:06.609 --> 00:34:08.650 because probably internationally, people think 00:34:08.650 --> 00:34:10.670 Canada is just fine. We're a first world country. 00:34:11.190 --> 00:34:15.409 They have no idea on in the indigenous space 00:34:15.409 --> 00:34:18.809 and how there is, you know. a two -tiered, three 00:34:18.809 --> 00:34:23.789 -tiered system in this country and how there's 00:34:23.789 --> 00:34:27.349 so much discriminatory lending practices that 00:34:27.349 --> 00:34:31.389 still happen here. It's baked into our laws. 00:34:31.929 --> 00:34:33.929 A lot of people just don't know that and don't 00:34:33.929 --> 00:34:35.670 know how it impacts people on the ground. So 00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:38.030 the more that people can hear about those kinds 00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:42.369 of things is important. And it is. I'm sure people 00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:44.110 internationally think, well, how can that happen 00:34:44.110 --> 00:34:47.889 in a country like that where it shouldn't? Yeah, 00:34:47.929 --> 00:34:51.289 I don't know how to answer that. But it is unfortunate 00:34:51.289 --> 00:34:55.150 that way. Well, it's stories like yours that 00:34:55.150 --> 00:34:59.010 the more we get them out through channels like 00:34:59.010 --> 00:35:02.670 this and others, we can change that perception 00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:08.030 and attract more interest. Because Canada alone 00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:11.889 probably doesn't have enough capital to do all 00:35:11.889 --> 00:35:18.030 the things that need doing. That's right. Tracy, 00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:21.929 you've mentioned CMHC a few times for the benefit 00:35:21.929 --> 00:35:25.369 of our listeners, Canada Mortgage and Housing 00:35:25.369 --> 00:35:28.730 Corporation. But what is that entity that you're 00:35:28.730 --> 00:35:34.090 dealing with fairly regularly? Yeah, so CMHC 00:35:34.090 --> 00:35:36.190 is, like you said, a crown corporation. So they're 00:35:36.190 --> 00:35:38.849 funded by the government, by the Canadian federal 00:35:38.849 --> 00:35:43.269 government for housing, mainly housing and not 00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:48.489 so much infrastructure per se. They have a small 00:35:48.489 --> 00:35:54.349 mandate for housing for Indigenous people. Most 00:35:54.349 --> 00:35:58.909 of the housing mandate for Canada is under Indigenous 00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:02.309 Services Canada. So CMHC does have a small mandate 00:36:02.309 --> 00:36:06.630 within them, like I said, a small budget to provide 00:36:06.630 --> 00:36:11.550 housing dollars for Indigenous people. And like 00:36:11.550 --> 00:36:15.269 we talked about before, the dollars and the money 00:36:15.269 --> 00:36:18.800 are just not enough. from a government budget 00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:23.780 perspective to satisfy the huge need there. But 00:36:23.780 --> 00:36:27.059 what's important for the partnership with KiwiWin 00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:29.500 and why our investors came to the table and what 00:36:29.500 --> 00:36:33.019 attracted the investment opportunity, what people 00:36:33.019 --> 00:36:36.940 liked is that when we go into a deal like a Section 00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:40.059 95 deal and build social housing in partnership 00:36:40.059 --> 00:36:44.699 with CMHC, we put our investors' money to work 00:36:44.699 --> 00:36:48.389 in building those homes. And then when the homes 00:36:48.389 --> 00:36:51.610 are built and reach final inspection, CMHC is 00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:55.489 the one that directly pays us back our money. 00:36:57.010 --> 00:36:59.750 So it's not the First Nation so much that is 00:36:59.750 --> 00:37:02.489 paying us back, but it's CMHC saying thank you 00:37:02.489 --> 00:37:08.210 for essentially advancing our funds to us to 00:37:08.210 --> 00:37:11.610 build more homes faster. So having that CMHC, 00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:16.030 although they... can't legally say it's a guarantee. 00:37:17.469 --> 00:37:19.610 They're not allowed to say that and we can't 00:37:19.610 --> 00:37:22.610 do that. I would say it's almost one step away 00:37:22.610 --> 00:37:26.389 from a guarantee because CMHC and us are managing 00:37:26.389 --> 00:37:29.110 and overseeing the project together from the 00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:31.190 beginning to the end. And that's what attracted 00:37:31.190 --> 00:37:34.409 a lot of investors to it is that in a way, the 00:37:34.409 --> 00:37:37.269 Canadian government is involved with this. There 00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:40.389 is a will on the Canadian government to... build 00:37:40.389 --> 00:37:43.590 more homes for indigenous people. So most of 00:37:43.590 --> 00:37:45.289 our investors that come in and we have about 00:37:45.289 --> 00:37:48.150 an investor base of about 15 different investors, 00:37:48.309 --> 00:37:53.090 that's what they like to see. So, and that makes 00:37:53.090 --> 00:37:57.650 our investors open to other projects that aren't, 00:37:57.650 --> 00:38:01.369 don't have CMHC involved as well. Right. So yeah. 00:38:01.469 --> 00:38:05.820 So hopefully that clarifies that. Yeah. And then 00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:08.739 maybe lastly, longer term picture for Kiwawin, 00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:11.340 what is the part of the grand plan? Do you see 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:15.760 application for what you're doing to other areas, 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.719 infrastructure in particular needs? Yeah, on 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.099 the infrastructure part, I know that we wanted 00:38:22.099 --> 00:38:24.699 to touch on the infrastructure piece. I think 00:38:24.699 --> 00:38:26.480 it's important to know because I think a lot 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.900 of people don't know how infrastructure is done 00:38:29.900 --> 00:38:33.139 in Canada. And I'm talking more on housing infrastructure. 00:38:34.369 --> 00:38:37.030 But it could be applicable to other infrastructure 00:38:37.030 --> 00:38:39.730 projects like electricity, telecom, things like 00:38:39.730 --> 00:38:43.510 that. But for infrastructure for housing, a lot 00:38:43.510 --> 00:38:47.329 of First Nations have to apply to and put what 00:38:47.329 --> 00:38:49.969 they want to build into a five -year plan with 00:38:49.969 --> 00:38:55.409 First Nations, with ISK. And when their turn 00:38:55.409 --> 00:38:59.070 comes up, they can get the funds, should the 00:38:59.070 --> 00:39:00.750 funds be available. Government never guarantees 00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:03.860 that the funds will be there. There's always 00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:06.219 this five -year rotating infrastructure cycle 00:39:06.219 --> 00:39:08.980 that if you need a new school, put it on the 00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:13.019 list. And when it comes up, we can do it. Same 00:39:13.019 --> 00:39:16.199 for housing. So a lot of the times, like I said, 00:39:16.300 --> 00:39:18.380 we're not just doing housing, we're doing infrastructure. 00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:20.340 You can't do housing without infrastructure. 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.239 And people understand that indigenous people 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:27.260 have to go to, they have a housing, they have 00:39:27.260 --> 00:39:29.079 to go somewhere for housing money. They have 00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:30.800 to go somewhere else for infrastructure money. 00:39:31.420 --> 00:39:33.599 So, for example, for a Section 95 project, they 00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:35.719 can only get housing money from CMHC. They can't 00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:37.900 get infrastructure money. So they're going to 00:39:37.900 --> 00:39:40.360 have to contact ISC for infrastructure. Then 00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:42.340 they have to go and contact CMHC for housing. 00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.360 And a lot of times those two don't marry. The 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.719 timing doesn't line up. So we're doing a lot 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:51.199 of having a lot of discussions around can KiwiWin 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:52.679 do housing and infrastructure? And the answer 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.599 is yes, because we would want to do that. Sometimes 00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:58.980 we're working on projects where. The First Nations 00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:02.260 got the infrastructure and it's built. There's 00:40:02.260 --> 00:40:03.519 one community I'm working with in Manitoba that 00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:06.639 have, they have 28 lots built and they've been 00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.599 built for a year and a half, but they can't get 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:13.559 the housing money from a bank or CMHC or anyone. 00:40:13.940 --> 00:40:15.880 So they've come to us to say, can you give us 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:17.960 money for these 28 units so we can put houses 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:21.559 on? Another band in Saskatchewan said, we have 00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:26.820 finally gotten the infrastructure money for 60 00:40:26.820 --> 00:40:30.809 units. It took us 12 years for ISK to finally 00:40:30.809 --> 00:40:33.070 give us the infrastructure money to build these 00:40:33.070 --> 00:40:35.590 units. But then the next problem is they're same 00:40:35.590 --> 00:40:38.969 thing. We don't have money for housing. So there's 00:40:38.969 --> 00:40:40.590 all these, that's what I mean about systemic 00:40:40.590 --> 00:40:44.030 issues with how the government runs these programs. 00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:47.769 It's not like what maybe Carney's trying to do 00:40:47.769 --> 00:40:49.510 with Build Canada Homes and In One Place. And 00:40:49.510 --> 00:40:51.670 I honestly don't even know how that's working 00:40:51.670 --> 00:40:56.010 yet, but it's just not very a nice process, which 00:40:56.010 --> 00:41:00.119 is why. If you don't maintain your home after 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:02.019 10, 20 years, yeah, it's not going to look too 00:41:02.019 --> 00:41:04.000 good. So you go into a lot of communities and 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.659 it's hard to maintain homes that aren't built 00:41:06.659 --> 00:41:09.940 properly in the first place. And you don't have 00:41:09.940 --> 00:41:12.820 enough money to maintain them. It's a problem. 00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:17.260 It's a huge problem in so many ways. So infrastructure 00:41:17.260 --> 00:41:23.519 financing generally is a huge... in Canada because 00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:25.719 we just, like you said, we don't really have 00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:28.400 that much money in the budget to do a lot of 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.360 these large projects. You've got to go sometimes 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:33.980 elsewhere to get international money to build 00:41:33.980 --> 00:41:40.219 up here, right? So, yeah. Right. NESC is Indigenous 00:41:40.219 --> 00:41:44.579 Services Canada, the government ministry responsible 00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:47.659 for delivering services to Indigenous people 00:41:47.659 --> 00:41:53.420 in Canada. Well, Tracy Smith, it's been great 00:41:53.420 --> 00:41:57.800 talking to you. Named one of Canada's top 50 00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.079 artists by the Canadian Council for the Arts. 00:42:00.739 --> 00:42:08.579 President and CEO of Kiwiwin Capital. A new private 00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:14.500 credit fund dedicated to building homes for Indigenous 00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:18.840 people in Canada. Really a pleasure. Talking 00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:21.139 to you, really interesting story. Good luck with 00:42:21.139 --> 00:42:22.900 everything you're doing. Thank you for everything 00:42:22.900 --> 00:42:26.599 you have done and are doing for our communities 00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:31.559 now and for your time. Thanks so much, Rob. Thanks 00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:37.239 for having me today. Thank you to Tracy Smith 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:39.599 for sharing her insights with us. And thank you 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:42.639 for viewing and listening. Mark your calendars 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:45.559 for the upcoming 2026 Summit taking place on 00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.360 the 8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe, 00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:50.900 and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel. 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:54.019 Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next 00:42:54.019 --> 00:42:54.360 time.