Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacca, and today my co -host Rob Brandt
sits down with Tracy Smith, President and CEO
of Kiwi Wind Capital Incorporated, a private
credit fund with a singular urgent focus, financing
the construction of homes for Indigenous communities
across Canada. Tracy is a Missinabi Cree entrepreneur
with over two decades of experience raising capital,
building organizations, and navigating the complex
financing landscape that governs unreserved lending.
She is also the founder of Outside Looking In,
a nationally recognized dance and youth leadership
charity that has sent thousands of Indigenous
young people through to high school graduation.
In their conversation, You'll discover why Canada's
major banks have largely failed to serve on -reserve
housing markets, and why that failure has created
compelling private credit opportunity. You'll
learn how KiwiWin's partnership with the Canada
Mortgage and Housing Corporation, commonly called
CMHC, provides investors with near -sovereign
-backed security on social housing projects.
And you'll understand why UK and European pension
capitals already begin to look seriously. at
funds like this one. For institutional investors,
the question is no longer whether Indigenous
partnerships create value. It's whether you understand
the specific mechanisms well enough to act on
them. This conversation with Tracy is a strong
place to start. Tracy Smith, President and CEO
of Kiwawin Capital. Thanks very much for joining
us today. Yeah, thanks for having me, Robin.
This one will do. My co -host, Mark McNacca,
is currently on leave. So it'll just be the two
of us in conversation today. But let's get into
it. And I want to ask you, Tracy, you're president
and CEO of Kiwawin. We'll talk about Kiwawin
shortly, but tell us a little bit about your
own personal journey to get to where you are
today. Yeah, so my background, I'm from Missinabi
Cree First Nation, Treaty 9, near kind of between
Wawa and Timmins area in Ontario. My mother's
side is from there and we've spent a lot of great
time as kids in the territory and I'm happy that
we can bring our kids there now too. It's been
a journey to obviously get to the beginning of
Kiwiwin. It seems like it's a... a long winding
road, I guess, to get to where it is today. But
yeah, I always spent, you know, over my career,
I, you know, I made it a personal choice that
I wanted to contribute, you know, my education,
my background to, you know, providing my knowledge
and experience and contributions to our community.
That was a very personal decision that I made
early on in my life. And I held to that. And
it's kind of where how and why KiwiWin was brought
to fruition over many years of thought and consultation
with my own, you know, people that I go to for
advice. But it was, you know, I think because
I made that personal decision to to contribute
and really kind of dedicate my, my purpose in
my life to our community. I think that really
helps me make decisions every day when I wake
up every morning. You've got a really interesting
mix of arts and business background. I want to
talk about the, the art side and in your dancing
and some of the organizations you've worked with
there and founded. Yeah. So I, Since I was four,
I danced my whole life, and that was my passion
and my love, something that was, you know, my
obsession as a kid. And I was fortunate enough
that my parents had the ability to put me in
dance classes all the way through to getting
a university degree in dance. That's how much
I loved it. As soon as I found out I could go
to university for dance, I think I found that
out when I was in grade seven. through, I don't
know how I picked up some sort of a York University
guide. I honestly don't know how I got it, but
I found out that you could go to university and
get a degree in dance. And my mom always told
me I had to go to university. So we didn't have
a choice. We had to go to university. I have
two older brothers. And that was my, I was set.
I knew what I wanted to do to that point. You
know, I was very entrepreneurial, too, though,
as a kid and as a young adult. I, you know, I've
officially, you know, publicly people see I started
outside looking in on KiwiWin, but I've probably
started 10 other companies before or around that.
You know, whether I was cleaning people's houses,
delivering newspapers, I've had many jobs that
I've created in my own life. So very entrepreneurial.
I come from an entrepreneurial family and both
my brothers are entrepreneurs, too. So I think
it's maybe just in the blood. No one ever told
me to just be an entrepreneur. It's just I think
it's been in the blood. But the dance, the arts
to business kind of transition isn't as big of
a jump, you know, maybe to other people it is.
But because I've always been entrepreneur and
started my own and made my own money, a lot of
times going into business and understanding how
business works wasn't a big jump for me to to
make. How it really did happen when what people
see publicly is that I went from an arts organization
to business. But, you know, I once had my dance
degree. That's when I was teaching a lot of dance
in various communities, reserves across the country.
I was in the kind of the prime of my career and
performing a lot and all that kind of stuff.
So people say, can you come teach our kids? So
I used to do that quite a bit. And then when
I graduated from with my dance degree. I knew
I wanted to go into business because I knew my
body could only handle so much. I already had
a couple of knee surgeries under me. I knew I
wasn't going to dance very much longer. And sorry,
what kind of dance are we talking about in a
specific type? Yeah, so I did everything. I did
everything a dancer can do, ballet, tap jazz,
modern, contemporary, hip hop, everything. But
when I went to different communities, I would
only teach hip hop because hip hop was very accessible
to kids. You know, they don't need any special
shoes. They don't have to wear tights and leotards.
You know, just get into the gym and we'll turn
on some loud music and we'll have a lot of fun.
So when I went to reserves, hip hop was still
a very big thing and kids love it, right? Dancing
to the music that's in today. So that's kind
of what I was doing when I transferred into my
MBA. And when I did my MBA, I focused on Indigenous
EcDev. But I was at the same time, I don't know
why I did it, but at the same time, I did launch
Outside Looking In, but not knowing I was creating
a company. So I just went to a reserve one year
and I got hired to go there for a week and work
with kids. But it turned into a life -changing
journey for me. I don't know why that community,
but... When I got there, I said to the kids,
okay, we're going to dance every day and we're
going to put on a big show on Friday and we're
going to perform for the community. So that was
our mission for the week. And when we did that,
the community, like we advertised, you know,
this really small remote community, no one knew
what was, no one knew we were doing this except
them. And the community all came out and the
routines we could do were very short because
I only had a week with two sets of kids. But
at the end of the performance, you know, a lot
of the community had tears in their eyes. The
kids were very emotional. And that sense of accomplishment
was quite strong. And there's in our communities,
there's not a lot of platforms for parents to
be to cheer their kids on and be proud of their
kids or and kids want that same ability to show
their parents what they can do. And that was
a very that was kind of the impetus of I'm like,
Jesus. If people think this is a really big deal,
because I, you know, I did it my whole life.
Like, I could do this so much bigger. I've performed
in big stages. I've, you know, performed all
over. So I said, that's kind of like, let's just
try this. Why don't we, hey, community, why don't
we just go do this? And, you know, but I'm going
to put some strings attached. And if you guys
got to stay in school, though, this community
had a high dropout rate. They only had, they
didn't have really any high school graduates
in that community when I was there. the next
year I said let's just try it and you know I
came up with the name and then you know I was
I was working at the bank by that time I was
actually working full -time at I think T I don't
know if I was at BMO or TD at that time I can't
write it was kind of a blur but it was I was
working full -time and traveling to this community
every three weeks to teach the kids and um we
were tracking the kids attendance all that and
then by the time April came, I started with 30
kids. And by the time we finished, we had five
in Toronto to perform in a big show. And I produced
a show, hired, you know, paid for a theater,
all that. But it was, it was, that's kind of
how, when I, it was something, it was a company
I created, but I didn't know I was creating a
company because, but when people said, I want
to write you a check, I'm like, well, I don't
want the check. I got to, I got to come up with
a company name. So that's kind of how, and then
it became, it was a big success that first year.
We had a big audience and. Other communities
are saying, hey, we want you to do it here. So
it's just something, an idea that steamrolled
into something, you know, that turned into a,
it was a business. And then once we realized,
well, we're accepting all this money, we're not
trying to make money here, then I turned it into
a charity. So that's kind of how it all, it was
kind of just one thing after another. And then
eventually, like, yeah, I'm like, okay, this
is an organization now. This is not serious,
you know? It's amazing what that, yeah, to start
out with, say, well, let's... Let's turn on some
music and have some fun in the gym and turn that
into what an organization like Outside Looking
In is today. But the stories, and clearly it's
a lot more than just about having fun or learning
some new dance moves. Yeah, that's right. It's
really having a community impact and a personal
impact on the kids who are involved in their
families even. I'm not, unfortunately not the
dancer my wife wishes I was, but it all sounds
very familiar to the sport and what sport can
do for youth and communities and everything else.
Maybe talk about what outside looking in is today.
Yeah, so I like I've been away from the organization
for a couple of years, but over the, you know,
17 years I was involved. Eventually, we turned
it into a high school credit dance program that's
accredited across the country. So because the
kids are dancing, you need 110 hours of design
curriculum to issue a credit to any kid in high
school. So it's a grade 7 to 12 high school credit
program. So even if kids are in grade 8, we can
issue them a grade 9 credit, which is so amazing.
Because that's really what inspires them to keep
going. In Indigenous communities, there's such
a high dropout rate after grade 8. A lot of kids
don't go on after grade eight. So if we can get
them enticed to say, hey, look, you got your
grade nine. You got a grade 10. They're more
entitled to keep going. So it's a high school
credit dance program. There's we have like there's
leadership programs that we created in partnership
with. It was called RBC at the time. So I think
RBC is still involved. You know, I think Sun
Life now is involved with introducing our kids
to technology and careers. So there's a whole,
you know, when we we were really good the first
five years getting kids to graduate, we're getting
them to graduation. And then we found even after
that, they weren't they weren't going on to anything.
So that's what the impetus of like, OK, well,
now we need to start talking to them about what
happens after high school. So then you get all
these other organizations partnering with with
the charity. Right. And. And it's just kind of
evolved into, you know, they still do the big
show in Toronto every year. And it's just amazing.
You know, I'm still I still keep in touch with
a lot of the kids who are now, you know, I met
them when they're 11. I still look at them like
they're 11, but they're like 30. So but it's
nice to see their development and their careers,
you know, blossoming as a result of the program.
I bet it is. And we digress a little bit because
we're focused on Indigenous transactions, interesting
business opportunities. But we also love to hear
the personal stories and the passion and the
community impacts. And so maybe talk a little
bit about how you go from working on Bay Street
and some of the ideas. Clearly entrepreneurial,
trying a bunch of things, but it all culminates
in Kiwi Capital. So maybe tell us a bit about
that story. You know, before I started outside
looking in, I was actually going to go into housing.
I was focused on that. It's just that, you know,
my life kind of I let my life kind of take me
to where things were going and it took me that
way. But I was always very passionate about housing.
And even more so, I've actually, while I was
running the charity, because of the situations
and the communities that I've been to, stayed
in many, many over the years, everything starts
at home, right? And there's so many kids and
there's so many families that I've seen because
I, you know, I used to talk to kids a lot too,
right? How come you're not at school today? Well...
I didn't really have a good sleep last night
because, you know, something was broken or we
were woken up by this or, you know, like there's,
you know, I had a kid too that used to say there's
just mice running around constantly in our house
and I just can't sleep. So there's, I have many
of those kinds of stories, which probably was
the motivation. You know, everything starts at
home. You have a healthy home. You might have
a better chance at a healthier life. And I don't
think the passion for KiwiWin can come from a
more unique spot because of the life that I've
lived so far. Yes, it's a private credit fund.
There's lots of financial terms. It's a very
sophisticated thing. But when you get down to
it, it's quite simple why we're doing this. People
don't have, a lot of people who I deal with on
the investor side have no experience in our communities.
And to try and explain things like that to them,
you really have to try to tell them why. And
I think Canadians generally, I think Canadian,
I know some of our questions today are on the
international side, but the Canadian public and
the Canadian investor base has seen these stories,
right, for many years on the housing crisis in
our communities. Well before... The Canadian
government has claimed there's a housing crisis
for the average Canadian. Like, it's been a housing
crisis in Indigenous communities for 50 years.
And there still very much is. This is nothing
new. I didn't start this because of a Canadian
housing crisis. I started because this crisis
has been going on for so long. I always felt
through when I raised capital, I had been raising
money for 20 years because of the charity. That's,
you know, I got very good at doing that. I know
how to, you know, pitch a idea and sell it and
actually use that money and do something good.
KiwiWin's no different. The idea came when...
I saw enough people say to me, you know, I want
to give to your charity, but man, it would be
really nice to like put my, not just put my money
in a GIC at the bank. It'd be nice to put my
money towards something that I can see. And actually
I could get my money back and get a return. I
said, yeah, it would be great, wouldn't it? And
that's kind of how these conversations happen
with people that I know who have money, who want
to do something with their money. That's just
not plopping it somewhere and getting a return,
you know, like a passive investment, right? That's
really was kind of the impetus to actually start.
I had this idea for QA when back in 2014, pitched
this idea, this exact fund idea to two banks
and it just went over their heads. They couldn't
get their head around it. So I kind of sat on
that for a few years because I had other things
I was doing, including having a couple of kids.
So I just said, I'm going to wait until my kids
are a bit older and then maybe start this. And
I was lucky enough that I had a seed investor.
who committed to me 10 years ago, said, when
you want to start it, we'll seed it. So I was
very fortunate in that way to have seed money
to actually start the company. But that's really
why, you know, it comes from a very logical place
to me to do this. I think there's a lot of pent
-up demand for this kind of opportunity because
we hear from a very unique investor base that...
It has to be an investor, though, that actually
wants to make the move from passive investing
to impact investing. There's not a difference
there, except you get a return and you actually
get to know where your money went and who it
impacted, which I think is actually a better
investment than just a passive GIC, put it in
a passive investor. If you really are interested
in that kind of... that kind of investment, then
I think hopefully more of these kinds of opportunities
come up, right? So KiwiWin is focused on providing
credit to build homes on reserve, off reserve,
First Nations communities, Indigenous communities.
What is the objective? So the priority is to
build our... Main focus is on reserve in First
Nations communities, in UIT as well. We prioritize
that first. Because off -reserve projects are
a lot easier to finance for banks, and I call
banks kind of lazy lenders. They like to just
follow a formula and just do what kind of is
in the manual, right? Banks aren't creative that
way. So on -reserve lending is not very different
than off -reserve lending. but banks seem to
think it is. So because banks don't necessarily
like to look at on reserve, that's where we're
playing is mostly in that market because we think
it's very easy to lend on reserve and we're getting
a lot of traction that way. So that's kind of
our priority right now. We did in the early days
when I started the company, I did reach out to
CMHC asking, you know, we're raising a bunch
of private money and we want to bring it. Is
there a way to partner with you? And that's kind
of how we started partnering with CMHC was through
their social housing program. So the way our
partnership works with them is they allocate
annually to a social housing program. And because
it's only an annual program, we say, well, if
you're allocating this year. then we'll allocate
the next two years, our money, to that same community.
So instead of a community having to build and
plan yearly, they can actually build three years
of homes in that first year. And then CMHC comes
and takes us out of our position once the homes
are built. So we can lend directly to First Nation
or we lend through the CMHC housing program as
well. And let's talk a little bit about why the
need is mind -boggling. The state of housing
on reserves across Canada and in the far north
is pretty shocking in a lot of cases. So there's
huge demand there. Maybe talk a little bit about
why traditional lending or the traditional lenders
have not taken up that. that market or find it
a difficult market to lend in to. And why you
think Kiwi, as you said, you're finding it's
not much different than off -reserve lending
and more straightforward than people would think
when they hear about Indian Act issues with security
and mortgages. Tell us a little bit about that.
What I like to kind of say is there's usually
a capacity mismatch between lenders and First
Nations, right? There's not a lot of capacity
at banks. And I'm talking human resources that
know who they're lending to. So you have people
in the banks that are hired to lend. And I know
this because I worked as a lender in a bank.
They have no idea how First Nations work. They've
probably never been to a community and they have
no idea how to read the financial statements
in our communities. So all of that makes for,
and when you're up against targets as a lender
to lend out so much money, you're going to go
with the easiest hanging fruit, lowest hanging
fruit close to you, right? So, and, you know,
banks look back at their policies. Their policies
are old, right? They're looking at policies developed
in the 60s and 70s still. Like no one has updated
these policies. So when you go back as a lender
and you're looking at, oh, geez, there's a thing
called the Indian Act. And oh, my gosh, we can't
repatriate an asset off reserve. Holy geez, this
is just so risky. And banks like to lend on against
land, right? They can understand grabbing that,
you know, being able to grab the land after.
And once they figure, oh, gee, we can't grab
that land. Well, oh, my gosh, we just can't do
it. I'm not saying all banks are like that. I
think some banks are getting better, but I would
say it's in pockets because there's still a nightmare
story I heard when I was out in Saskatoon that,
you know, one of the big five banks, there's
a gentleman that wanted to get a house on a reserve
and the band said, okay, sure, we'll guarantee
it for you. So the guy went to the bank, said,
my band's going to guarantee my loan. And they
said, okay, sure, we'll lend to you. But they
made the guy get a modular home and put it on
almost like wooden stilts so that they could
go and grab that house back from him should they
require it. And this is only five years ago.
So that's what I'm talking about. There are pockets
of good lenders. I find BC is a little bit of
a different beast. People love to look at BC
as a... as a great place, but it's easier out
there, right? It's, it's a little bit different
than other places. Leased land is a thing now
where people like to, well, just lease your land
and, you know, then, but the only reason why
you're doing that is so that the bank can get
comfort. It's not because it's giving, you know,
a lot of benefits to the communities. It's that
the banks are getting comfort that way if they're,
if they're lending on leased land, right? So
there's a huge, and I don't see the banks really
doing it. And I've watched and I've worked with
them over the years in terms of changing their
mentality towards this. I think it's inexcusable
that the banks love taking money on deposit from
our communities, but they don't go ahead and
return that back in the form of loans, right?
There wouldn't be a housing crisis if the banks
actually came up with a strategy on, and it's
not hard. You just need some smart people sitting
around a table for a year or two to put the strategy
together to figure out how can we deploy more
capital to Indigenous communities to build homes.
It's really not hard, but there's no will, and
it has to come from the top, and the top isn't
talking about it. So until that happens, unfortunately,
companies like mine have to exist to get more
private money directed at these opportunities.
And you closed a small first fund, was it two
years ago, $10 million? And now signed another
commitment with a group called Van City. Tell
us about that. Yeah, so we're about to do a final
close April 1st. That's our goal is to do a final
close. We think we'll probably do a final close
close to $15 to $20 million for this first fund.
We did have, we just announced our partnership
with Vancity Bank, investment bank, where any
deal that we do that maybe CMHC isn't going to
do as a takeout and it's a larger project or
then Vancity will be our takeout partner because
we're not a long -term lender. We're there to
literally either have First Nations if they wanted
to purchase homes or they want to build and construct,
design, build, construct their own. Once it gets
to final completion. then that's where we offload
the loan to Vancity in that regard. So we're
there for that. The hardest financing to get
for communities is the design to final completion,
that construction dollars. Usually they're having
to wait to hear back from ISK or CMHC on if they
get the money. Some communities await decades
for money from, and, you know, they get a little
bit of money every year, but it's not enough
to even construct sometimes one or two homes.
So we're there to give that money to at least
get it done, get people in the homes, and then
it goes to a long -term lender like a Vancity.
And what kind of risk are you taking? Is Kiwetwin
taking in situations like that? And is there
a secret sauce for security? structures that
you can talk about? Yeah, every community is
going to be different, right? Every community
we look at, we look at where we can get security.
And there's 100 % always, all the time, there's
a place to get security. You just have to work
through the process to see where you can get
that comfort. Some communities, it's really easy.
And some communities, it's a little bit more
difficult, depending on cash flows or other revenues
that they have or other assets that you can use
to lend against. But in terms of, you know, the
only other risk I would say there is, is just
basic construction project risk, right? We want
to get the project started and we want to get
it built because that's what our investors want
to see. They want to know that their money went
to actually constructing a completed home and
people are living in that home. So that's the
most important part. for us is that project risk
and managing that, you know, all the way to the
completion. Right. And all relatively new, but
do you have shovels in the ground or completed
homes that you can point to today? With just
our final close, we're actually about to get
ready to start a couple projects. One's in Manitoba
and it's a $25 million deal. 30 homes with 200
-unit infrastructure being constructed. So we're
building out the infrastructure for 200 homes,
but then 30 of the modular units will go in as
well. But what's so good is that the infrastructure
is going to be there so that as they get more
money or as they want to, they just put more
homes into their community, right? This community
has a lot of... that are deemed unlivable. So
there'll be a nice transfer from those homes
into these brand new homes. And it's only going
to be probably life -changing for a lot of the
community members, right, in that way. To have
200 new homes over, say, the next five years
is going to be unbelievable. It's almost like
a brand new community, right? And then we have
lots of Section 95 projects that we're looking
at in the next month with CMHC. Communities,
especially from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, we're
looking at prioritizing for this round. So, yeah,
no shortage of housing projects. What's the Section
95 project? So Section 95 project is what I was
saying before in terms of the CMHC. That's their
social housing program. It's been around for
50 years. It was, you know, it was developed
way back when, you know, it was. I think it was
under the Kretchen government, actually, they
developed that program with the advice of a lot
of the chiefs and leaders at the time. It's a
successful program in the sense that they haven't
had any defaults. The hard part about the program
is that they have a restrictive budget. So it's
only $150 million, and it's supposed to be for
the benefit of... all of our communities across
the country. So when you do the math on 150 million,
630 communities, you get 0 .6 houses built. So
I know CMHC advocates the federal government
to increase the section 95 budget. Honestly,
I don't know when it was last increased. It might've
been about 15 years ago, but it's just not enough.
And so what CMHC does is they look at the the
less riskiest communities to lend to. So communities
that are financially healthy, they build projects,
they complete them. So it's a very risk -averse
program. And we're there just to allow communities
to build more faster, advance it versus having
to wait. Next year to reapply again and reapply
again. We'll advance our funds in advance so
they can build three years of homes in one year.
Well, it sounds like there's endless demand for
what you're setting out to do. And I noticed
that another, I don't know how similar they are,
but Raven's Outcome Fund just recently closed
and raised some money doing similar sorts of
things. Is there an opportunity for, have you
had interest from investors outside of Canada
in what you're doing at Keywaven? Yeah, a couple
of the banks have come to me and said that they
have investors and pension plans, you know, especially
in London. You know, one of the banks I'm talking
to has a large pension. That's all he deals with
is pensions. And I think that he lives and works
in the UK. He says there's a lot more interest
and discussions around coming into funds like
these. I don't think it's widespread yet. It
seems very early days that people are discussing
and dabbling in it. It'd be nice to see, you
know, more money coming in and being put to work
faster. I don't know, but I haven't had, although
I haven't really reached out to investors beyond
Canada. Well, you should think about coming to
London for our next summit in April if you're
not already booked. But there is quite a developed
ESG social impact investment community over there.
And I don't think they think about Canada necessarily
as a destination for those types of projects.
And so we believe there's a lot of capital. And
part of the purpose of that summit will be our
third annual summit. Part of the purpose of that
is to get some of the stories like yours out
to the investment community there and make them
aware of what is happening in Canada and how
things have changed and some of the exciting
investment opportunities. Yeah, no, I agree.
Actually, I did talk to somebody in Scotland,
somebody who runs family offices. And it kind
of seemed like he, like when you say, I think
a lot of people don't think of Canada, I think
because probably internationally, people think
Canada is just fine. We're a first world country.
They have no idea on in the indigenous space
and how there is, you know. a two -tiered, three
-tiered system in this country and how there's
so much discriminatory lending practices that
still happen here. It's baked into our laws.
A lot of people just don't know that and don't
know how it impacts people on the ground. So
the more that people can hear about those kinds
of things is important. And it is. I'm sure people
internationally think, well, how can that happen
in a country like that where it shouldn't? Yeah,
I don't know how to answer that. But it is unfortunate
that way. Well, it's stories like yours that
the more we get them out through channels like
this and others, we can change that perception
and attract more interest. Because Canada alone
probably doesn't have enough capital to do all
the things that need doing. That's right. Tracy,
you've mentioned CMHC a few times for the benefit
of our listeners, Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation. But what is that entity that you're
dealing with fairly regularly? Yeah, so CMHC
is, like you said, a crown corporation. So they're
funded by the government, by the Canadian federal
government for housing, mainly housing and not
so much infrastructure per se. They have a small
mandate for housing for Indigenous people. Most
of the housing mandate for Canada is under Indigenous
Services Canada. So CMHC does have a small mandate
within them, like I said, a small budget to provide
housing dollars for Indigenous people. And like
we talked about before, the dollars and the money
are just not enough. from a government budget
perspective to satisfy the huge need there. But
what's important for the partnership with KiwiWin
and why our investors came to the table and what
attracted the investment opportunity, what people
liked is that when we go into a deal like a Section
95 deal and build social housing in partnership
with CMHC, we put our investors' money to work
in building those homes. And then when the homes
are built and reach final inspection, CMHC is
the one that directly pays us back our money.
So it's not the First Nation so much that is
paying us back, but it's CMHC saying thank you
for essentially advancing our funds to us to
build more homes faster. So having that CMHC,
although they... can't legally say it's a guarantee.
They're not allowed to say that and we can't
do that. I would say it's almost one step away
from a guarantee because CMHC and us are managing
and overseeing the project together from the
beginning to the end. And that's what attracted
a lot of investors to it is that in a way, the
Canadian government is involved with this. There
is a will on the Canadian government to... build
more homes for indigenous people. So most of
our investors that come in and we have about
an investor base of about 15 different investors,
that's what they like to see. So, and that makes
our investors open to other projects that aren't,
don't have CMHC involved as well. Right. So yeah.
So hopefully that clarifies that. Yeah. And then
maybe lastly, longer term picture for Kiwawin,
what is the part of the grand plan? Do you see
application for what you're doing to other areas,
infrastructure in particular needs? Yeah, on
the infrastructure part, I know that we wanted
to touch on the infrastructure piece. I think
it's important to know because I think a lot
of people don't know how infrastructure is done
in Canada. And I'm talking more on housing infrastructure.
But it could be applicable to other infrastructure
projects like electricity, telecom, things like
that. But for infrastructure for housing, a lot
of First Nations have to apply to and put what
they want to build into a five -year plan with
First Nations, with ISK. And when their turn
comes up, they can get the funds, should the
funds be available. Government never guarantees
that the funds will be there. There's always
this five -year rotating infrastructure cycle
that if you need a new school, put it on the
list. And when it comes up, we can do it. Same
for housing. So a lot of the times, like I said,
we're not just doing housing, we're doing infrastructure.
You can't do housing without infrastructure.
And people understand that indigenous people
have to go to, they have a housing, they have
to go somewhere for housing money. They have
to go somewhere else for infrastructure money.
So, for example, for a Section 95 project, they
can only get housing money from CMHC. They can't
get infrastructure money. So they're going to
have to contact ISC for infrastructure. Then
they have to go and contact CMHC for housing.
And a lot of times those two don't marry. The
timing doesn't line up. So we're doing a lot
of having a lot of discussions around can KiwiWin
do housing and infrastructure? And the answer
is yes, because we would want to do that. Sometimes
we're working on projects where. The First Nations
got the infrastructure and it's built. There's
one community I'm working with in Manitoba that
have, they have 28 lots built and they've been
built for a year and a half, but they can't get
the housing money from a bank or CMHC or anyone.
So they've come to us to say, can you give us
money for these 28 units so we can put houses
on? Another band in Saskatchewan said, we have
finally gotten the infrastructure money for 60
units. It took us 12 years for ISK to finally
give us the infrastructure money to build these
units. But then the next problem is they're same
thing. We don't have money for housing. So there's
all these, that's what I mean about systemic
issues with how the government runs these programs.
It's not like what maybe Carney's trying to do
with Build Canada Homes and In One Place. And
I honestly don't even know how that's working
yet, but it's just not very a nice process, which
is why. If you don't maintain your home after
10, 20 years, yeah, it's not going to look too
good. So you go into a lot of communities and
it's hard to maintain homes that aren't built
properly in the first place. And you don't have
enough money to maintain them. It's a problem.
It's a huge problem in so many ways. So infrastructure
financing generally is a huge... in Canada because
we just, like you said, we don't really have
that much money in the budget to do a lot of
these large projects. You've got to go sometimes
elsewhere to get international money to build
up here, right? So, yeah. Right. NESC is Indigenous
Services Canada, the government ministry responsible
for delivering services to Indigenous people
in Canada. Well, Tracy Smith, it's been great
talking to you. Named one of Canada's top 50
artists by the Canadian Council for the Arts.
President and CEO of Kiwiwin Capital. A new private
credit fund dedicated to building homes for Indigenous
people in Canada. Really a pleasure. Talking
to you, really interesting story. Good luck with
everything you're doing. Thank you for everything
you have done and are doing for our communities
now and for your time. Thanks so much, Rob. Thanks
for having me today. Thank you to Tracy Smith
for sharing her insights with us. And thank you
for viewing and listening. Mark your calendars
for the upcoming 2026 Summit taking place on
the 8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe,
and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel.
Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next
time.