Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Rob Brant and
I continue our conversation with Nicole Burke
Boucher, CEO and co -owner of the Boucher Group,
a $200 million Indigenous -owned industrial services
company operating in Alberta's Oil Sands region.
with nearly 1 ,500 employees from nearly 100
different First Nations across the country. In
the first podcast, Nicole shared how she and
her husband David built Boucher from a devastating
first -year loss to becoming one of Canada's
largest Indigenous -owned companies. Now, we
continue the discussion with Nicole. and talk
about how Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission
transformed Bouchier's business strategy and
why Exxon selected them for its 2024 International
Diverse Supplier Award against thousands of global
contractors. She talks how her company achieved
25 % growth in peak years and why her and her
team are now deliberately slowing to 5 % growth
at the $200 million threshold to look at diversification
beyond the all sense. So let's continue this
very engaging conversation. Particularly for
our European listeners, Nicole, that the oil
sands can have a negative connotation. So when
you talk about Indigenous culture and teachings
and working in a place with fossil fuels and
oil sands, how do the two work hand in hand?
I mean, I'm going to say that I can only give
you my opinion and my perspective on it. I think
depending on who you ask, you'll get varying
degrees of answers, I'm sure. Dave and I have
often, you know. struggled with the fact because
we love our traditional activities with our families
as well. And we find ourselves having to go a
little further out of our communities to practice
those now because the footprint of the oil sands
is all around us. But as Indigenous people, I
think we have an opportunity presented to us
right now to be able to thrive. off of minerals
mineral rights of things going on around us and
we could have taken the choice to fight it we
could have taken the choice to work against it
but we we chose to embrace it we chose to embrace
what was going around um around us and embrace
it as best as we can and i think we're an ideal
representation of when you work as a true partner
alongside your neighbors what truly is possible
and what could happen and i spend a lot of my
time as an indigenous female entrepreneur traveling
throughout canada being able to shed a different
light on our wood buffalo region and oil sands
operations here because i think it's so fundamental
and paramount to what's going on in Canada right
now. And there's so many great things happening
as a result, especially right here in my own
community. And I think those stories need to
be told more. You look at Boucher alone and you
look at what we've been able to give to the community,
12 million plus back into the communities, the
skills we've been able to develop with our Indigenous
people representing almost 100. Indigenous communities
across Canada. These people work for us. They
learn skills in an environment that's very supportive.
They learn training, and then they're able to
take those back to their own communities times
100 communities across Canada. To me, that's
true impact. Yes. Yeah, and I suppose you've,
well, I'll ask, do you feel you've had an influence
in the way business is done, say, in the oil
sands? I like to think we have in our own special
way. I think I'd love to see more contractors
in our region follow suit. We have a lot of contractors
that come in and with their expertise. And I
think when you come into any community, you have
a bit of a social responsibility to leave it
better than you found it. And so I think that's
what we stand for. Yes, quite clearly. I think
it's important for our audience over here to
understand because for many people, Canada hasn't
been on the radar for a number of years. The
world's changed. It's on everybody's radar now.
But you mentioned about the Truth and Reconciliation
Commission and the findings of that was kind
of a pivot for your business in the sense you
had been living those values, but now there was
this platform. Can you talk about that moment
and how it changed? how you saw the potential
to grow your business? Because I think it's really
important for people to understand Canada is
not the place it was 10 or 20 years ago. Yeah,
so I think that, you know, there was this piece
of not wanting to say we're Indigenous for the
first few years of business. It was this whole
thing about, I don't want someone to give me
a contract just because we're Indigenous. I want
to earn the contract. And so we shied away from
who we were as individuals. We shied away from
our culture and what it stood for. And we really
tried to work in the business community 100 percent,
be able to compete alongside all the other businesses,
non -Indigenous businesses. And then when the
truth and reconciliation came about within Canada,
you started to see organizations, schools. general
population embrace the concept and actually start
learning what happened years ago within Canada
and being able to explain why Indigenous people
in some areas are in the state that they're in
or some communities are in the state that they're
in. And so with this awareness and this education.
when it came about and it brought a level of
understanding to the table that wasn't there
before. And then you had organizations start
to really look towards, well, what can we do
in the space of truth and reconciliation with
Indigenous people within Canada? And so it opened
up doors that just were never opened before for
Indigenous people at all levels, not only in
business, but in education and in health care
right across the board. And so you've seen this
happening. You've seen this wave of change happening
throughout Canada. And as a business, we wanted
to take part of that. And it felt really good.
It felt like timing was really good to finally
step into our own and be able to just be really
proud of who we are and be able to say, you know.
Our culture, our Indigenous culture and celebrating
it could very much walk in alignment with business
and they could be one. And so I think that's
what we've brought to the table is being able
to show Canada that Indigenous entrepreneurs
can be very successful entrepreneurs. Not through
joint ventures and partnerships only, but by
truly running their own business and taking all
of their traditional teachings into their business.
And I think it benefits everybody, Indigenous
and non -Indigenous. Yes, I'm sure of that. And
I think one of the other interesting things for
people when they're listening to this and you
talk about you have, I think, close to nearly
100 different nations from across the country.
How does that work? you know outsiders look and
think oh how do i how do i navigate this and
you've navigated they've all joined in your company
and going in the same direction yeah yeah we
because of our partners again our clients because
of the way they run their sites a lot of the
sites have to be fly in and so we're able to
work with communities right across canada fly
them up to site provide a shift schedule of like
for example seven days on seven days off and
the interesting part of being set you know they
they have to move away from their families for
seven days at a time but i think they move into
their work family at that time and we have people
have been with us for 20 years they've embraced
that this we're their second family and they
fly up and they spend their seven days with us
and we're extremely grateful for it and then
they go home and they enrich their communities
with different skills and things that they've
learned at work wow very powerful and then something
like that translates into ExxonMobil's International
Diverse Supplier Award. And for some of our listeners,
Imperial Oil is the name of the Canadian subsidiary
of Exxon that never changed all those years ago.
But that is a huge recognition of a successful
firm that competes with the best across the world
because Exxon is across the world and you won
that award. Can you tell us a little bit about
that? Yeah, it was definitely a highlight in
our business for the 25 years that I've been
a part of it. It was definitely one of the highlights
that we received a couple of years ago. It really
showed the level of impact that Boucher was having
on its workforce and its communities in which
it lived and worked, that it was recognized by
ExxonMobil for our work, not only within the
Wood Buffalo community, but specifically at their
site, which is the curl operations. The whole
diverse supplier award to me speaks to the fact
that, you know, we are embracing culture, but
beyond the Indigenous culture as well, because
out of our 1 ,400 employees, Fort McMurray is
a very... multicultural community. So we have
a lot of cultures that work for us. So yes, we
absolutely emphasize our indigenous people and
being able to work with them and being able to
help them have career paths and build new skills,
but all cultures as well. And so I think it really
spoke to our true partnership that we have alongside
ExxonMobil and what we've developed over the
years with them. recognition for their understanding
of what they see within Boucher and what it's
been able to do on their site. Yes. Now, what
about the future of Boucher? Nicole, you mentioned
possible opportunities outside of Alberta. You've
probably been approached in the past about things
like partnerships and other expansion ideas,
maybe even IPOs going public. What does the future
look like, do you think? You know, we are a type
of company that embraces change and always looks
to grow. I'm a big advocate within our organization
to never compare ourselves to anybody else. So
I'm always about how do we beat ourselves annually,
year on year? What are we doing to make ourselves
different? What are we doing to be innovative?
What are we doing to grow? And the models worked
well for us because we have had years of growth
of upwards of 25%. But traditionally, we do about
10 % growth year on year. The last couple of
years, though, we closed 2025 on a... 5 % growth
to the year before. And then this year, we're
forecasted for another 5 % growth in our budget.
But that is what I'm continuing to embrace is
I think there's more to do out there. And I think
there's places that we could grow into. And I
think there's services that we could diversify
ourselves into. But I want to be very careful
on the growth. right now we're going through
a period that i say at the 200 million mark it
almost feels like year one again because there's
just a reinvestment into the company that has
to be made right now around people around systems
processes an eye on innovation in order to really
create another foundation and another level to
be able to grow double in size in the next five
years and with some of the recent changes in
the global order or who we work with and who
we want to sell to. The Europeans and the Asians,
Prime Minister Mark Carney was over in China
recently looking at how can we be your energy
partner. Europe's relooking. Today they're just
talking about LNG, want to balance things off.
But the oil sands are at the heart of... Canada's
resource economy to a large degree. What are
you seeing now on the ground about the opportunities
and the changes that have been talked about?
That must have changed the perspective you have
on the future of the business. Well, I'll tell
you that. The life cycle, even within a given
year of our business on a on a revenue basis
coincides usually with the oil prices. Right.
And, you know, it just takes one event in the
world happening and that affects markets immediately.
Right. And so if it affects our clients, then
that trickles down to the contractor on the ground.
And so. You know, I think there is a bright future
for sure. I think we're working our way there.
I think there's just a positive story that needs
to be retold about the oil sands that I think
for some reason across the world. There's just
such a negative connotation when you think oil
sands. And if people would only take the opportunity
to come and visit us and see what I see every
single day, it really is a land of opportunity.
And that's one of the things that we try to market
as a business ourselves is come and join us.
You know, our company is full of opportunity
because we continue to grow. One of the reasons
why we've been able to anchor in this community
and grow is because of the oil sands. right the
biggest reason so we're huge advocates and I
just think we're even the land that we have you
know I'm looking out right now into a bunch of
green trees all around me it is beautiful up
here the water the land if you if you're an outdoors
person this is the place you want to be you get
out I get out within the outdoors every single
weekend so I just think you know it's such a
negative negative tone overall and there's just
no need because once you visit here, you'll walk
away with totally a different mindset. Yes. Amen
to that and that's one of the reasons we started
the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit in
London was to be able to tell stories like that
and to try to change the perception and educate
potential partners and investors about how to
engage. in Canada, especially with Indigenous
communities and partners, and also make them
aware of some fantastic business opportunities
and investment opportunities. One of the other
things we touched on earlier was about giving
back to the community, and you give a significant
amount back into your community, which is...
part of how you operate as a business. Can you
talk a little bit more about that and some of
the programs that you run? Because it really
shows a business that succeeded because you knew
you were part of something bigger, not just,
oh, we got a business, how do we make money?
It's how do we make sure it's sustainable and
that we're well -respected in the community?
Yeah, I think you heard me say earlier that I
think As business organizations, we have an obligation
to social responsibility in the communities in
which we live and work. And I think it's because
of our traditional ways of being Indigenous people.
Indigenous people long ago were a nomad community,
but you lived together and you worked together
and you fed each other together and everybody
played a role within our community. And so I
think it's just fundamentally in. us as Indigenous
people to want to help community. And so we see
community giving as not charitable giving as
much as value creation within community. And
I think strong communities for us when we invest
in our communities, you know, means a stronger
workforce. It means a stronger community. And
so the return on investment is definitely there
tenfold. And we see it each and every day. We
see it in being able to help about one not social
profit organization, we have this saying within
our company that we don't partner up with one
of our non -for -profit organizations without
looking to strengthen them in the long run. We
look for long -term partnerships with our social
profit sector and we like to leave them better
than we found them. by working together as true
partners through transparency and honesty. And
so that could be something as small as, you know,
helping them stand up a new event that could
raise money for them year on year to help with
their operations, right? We spend a lot of time
working within our youth sector for recreation.
It is an area that our larger oil sands clients
tend to not support as much because it's children
within hockey, as an example, ice hockey or soccer.
So we tend to fill a big piece of that space
because I find when you're able to work with
families through their children. that has a huge
impact. You have hardworking parents that are
usually shift workers up here and being able
to go in and support their families and their
children's recreational activities takes a big
stressor off of the families for sure. But charitable
giving is huge. We have three pillars that we
look towards and obviously women empowerment
is a huge piece of that. Youth and education
is a big piece of that. Cultural. Building out
culture is a really big piece. So we get involved
in many, many different organizations. Yes, you're
known for giving back, which is great. Just coming
back a bit to the Indigenous partnerships and
what non -Indigenous firms and international
investors, what do you think they most misunderstand
about Indigenous partnerships? Because you went
from one point trying to compete by saying you're
not Indigenous. because at the time that wasn't
a positive thing to be seen after truth and reconciliation
all those issues came to table and you were able
to speak proudly of who you are without feeling
it was holding you back for people who haven't
worked with indigenous companies before what
are some of the misunderstandings that you've
you've come across or or think some key insights
that they should know going forward to help them
succeed Yeah, I mean, I could speak from my experience
with having a partner along our journey for five
years. We had a company out of the UK called
Carillion, and they had purchased a minority
share within our organization. And they were
able to bring in and strengthen our facility
maintenance side of things. And I think probably
the biggest misconception right off the bat was
as Indigenous people, we really didn't know how
to run a business. And I think as they got in
and we stood up a board and I reported into the
board, I think they realized quite quickly, okay,
let them run their business. They know exactly
what they're doing, but how can we support them
better? And in the five years that they were
a part of our organization is when we did our
largest growth. Because, you know, we were like,
again, it was we were like sponges learning from,
you know, the global public entity. And there
were so many great governance pieces that we
were able to learn from them. But in return,
I think we were able to help them understand
oil sands a lot more, help them understand indigenous
culture, indigenous people, and how the right
way to work and not to work with us. So we had
a great relationship. And I think there's just
a common misunderstanding that you have to go
in and save Indigenous people and save Indigenous
communities. And that's not the case. You want
to work with, you want to truly partner where
you each have something to bring to the table
because we each have something to learn from
each other and we each have a learning to give.
And I think a lot of non -Indigenous companies
come in thinking it's very one -sided and it's
not. It should be 50 -50. Yes. And coming back
to that UK partnership, you had the foresight
to end it before Carillion and a huge group in
the UK. And when they were facing their challenges,
there were so many projects across the UK and
infrastructure across the way that were at risk.
How is the UK going to function with this company?
But luckily, you took back control before that.
Just at the right time. And we were very lucky
to be able to end up where we did. I'll be honest.
Initially, we entertained the acquisition at
the minority share as part of a long -term exit
strategy for Dave and I. And so we found ourselves
in very, very uncomfortable, unfamiliar territory
when five years later, that exit strategy turned
to the other side and they were exiting. And
we found ourselves the ones having to put out
a lot of money to buy our shares back. But it
was great. There wasn't a single thing that I
would change. They were completely respectful
over the five years. I learned a ton. And it
got us visiting London on a regular basis and
going to their conferences. And we were always
being recognized on the safety front with annual
awards. Because one thing about our area up here
in the oil sands is we are very safety sensitive.
And so when you come up here and work, it's like
working no other. place in the world in terms
of the health and safety side of things. Well,
I hope the summit gives you an opportunity to
come back to London and maybe re -engage if you
haven't been there in a while. But there's a
lot of interest again in Canada and especially
in businesses like yourself and Boucher Group.
And really interesting perspective to have an
Indigenous -owned company in the heart of the
oil sands. And, you know, the economic development
story and the benefits that you and the communities
around have seen from the oil sands is a message,
I think, that's worth getting outside Canada.
I agree. We've talked a lot about the Indigenous
perspective and non -Indigenous, but there's
a lot of young women who still need role models
out there. And you've grown and led this successful
company. What are some lessons that you can share
with our audience about how to succeed in a world
that's maybe not, it's different for a guy, right?
It most definitely is. So what are some lessons
for women listening? And also, what are some
lessons for the men who are listening and they
get out of the way, right? You know, I think
we're in a different stage as a people all together,
where women have a lot to offer through our...
sense of the empathy side of things. And I think
we need to start creating more empathetic work
environments. And I think that's where I think
you need to lean into and listen to your female
counterparts for sure. I think for the young
females listening, I would say that you need
to not give up. You need to, I knew I spent,
I can only tell you my journey and it's been
challenging. i have spent a lot of time listening
and learning that was really important for me
i chose when to step in and i chose when to use
my voice but my voice was a little bit more silent
in the first couple years because i really wanted
to take it on all in and learn so that when i
did speak you wanted to listen because you know
nicole i got to a point where it's like she does
know what she's talking about. She might be a
female in the construction environment, but she
knows what she's talking about. But that doesn't
come right away, right? So I think my confidence
was built over time. And there were some really
hard times where I wanted to pack it in and walk
away. But I'm not, I'm very resilient. I'm not
a quitter. And I just kept going and going. And
biggest piece of advice I could give is don't
wallow for too long. I think a failure happens
and there are more failures than there are successes.
You listen to any entrepreneur speak, there's
more failures than successes, but those failures
help prepare you to ultimately be able to handle
that success and not let it go to your head.
But when a failure does happen, don't stay down
too long. Get back up. Get back up on your feet
and keep going. For me, I'd give myself a week
max, a week, and I had to get back up and keep
going. And it was really when I started to tell
myself I didn't need the male counterpart. I
don't need the male COO to run my business. I
could just do this myself. And that's when I
started telling myself a different story in my
head and believing in myself and my ability and
my skills. That's when I started to see things
really change, right? So, you know, just don't
give up. Have that resiliency and strength to
keep going because listen to that little inner
voice because it's usually always right. um yeah
and and just believe in your dreams so i never
really dreamt this to be honest with you this
isn't where i'm sitting today is i didn't dream
i'd be sitting here today i didn't actually i
thought i was gonna be a school teacher to be
honest with you um but life started to unfold
and i really had this whole sense of go with
it and each event that happened along the way
always happens for a reason so embrace it learn
from it and keep going Great. So that's when
you made Dave president. Get out there. He has
his own full -time job. He's a counselor with
his First Nation. So it's a great balance. Yes,
it seems like it. Talk to us a little bit about
that family dynamic. Your father involved, a
50 -50 partner with your husband. Are there other
generations now involved in the business? I was
really struck in Vancouver in December. You received
an award from the Canadian Council of Indigenous
Business, a Lifetime Achievement Award, and you
had a lot of your family on stage with you. Talk
to us a bit about how that, the pros and cons
of working so closely with family. Well, working
with your spouse is extremely hard, that's for
sure. And I think we struck a balance very early
on of what he took care of and what I took care
of. And then as we started to grow the business,
it became very evident that we probably couldn't
work day to day within the business. But I was
lucky enough that he had a huge heart for his
community. So he stepped into a leadership role
within his community, which still allowed him
to work in alignment with. Boucher, but at arm's
length. And so he sits on our board. He's the
chair of our board. We have a great board of
advisors. And then I report in. So I report into
the board on a quarterly basis. So we found a
way to work through it. Having family work in
the business, you know, probably one of the largest
struggles I had is I told you earlier, I come
from a family of three, four girls. I'm actually
the last surviving sibling amongst my younger
sisters. So they've all passed. And at one point
I had my mom, my dad and a sister working within
the business when another sibling passed. And
so I lost my three. family members to the like,
they left the business, obviously, for for with
the crisis we were going through. And so it left
me kind of kind of having to hold everything
up, I felt by myself. And that was that was probably
one of the most challenging points of my life.
So, you know, it's hard as much as it's great
to work with your family. You know, there's definitely
pros and cons. But without my family, I wouldn't
be. where i am today because they got us through
those early days they were the backbone of those
early days when nobody wanted to nobody really
believed in us our family did And then today,
you know, it's coming full circle because now
we have our own children entering the business.
We have two of them that work full time right
now in the business. We have five children between
the two of us. And so two have just entered the
business a few years ago. So it's great. It's
very rewarding. You have to be very careful,
you know, because you don't want to hold them
to a different standard. That's very important.
But it's nice to see them come into the business
at long last. Wow. Thank you for that. One thing
I'd like to circle back on is this whole piece
on working with Indigenous people and Indigenous
communities. I really want people to understand
that Indigenous people are a type of people that
is very relationship built. And we don't come
from a place years ago. um we made agreements
over a handshake and your word so your word matters
and so i often see organizations not only business
organizations but social profit organizations
come into first nation communities and the approach
they take is not one that's relationship built
but really it's uh more of a paper -based approach
and i always tell them with especially with chief
and council or with First Nation people, you
have one opportunity to make an impression. That's
it. It's your one opportunity. And what you leave
on the table when you leave a meeting or you
leave a visit or you leave an encounter, that's
it right there. And so I think if, you know,
I would suggest that a lot of... organizations
coming into our Indigenous communities, take
the time to learn the community before you go
in, right? Don't just pick up the phone and call
one person, but take the time to really understand
that community and understand the leaders. And
when I say leaders, they're not always the actual
government leaders. Leaders in Indigenous communities
show up in very different ways. So take the time
to understand the leaders of that community and
really plan out what you're going to do to go
into that community with a different mindset.
Because you do only have one chance to go in.
And our Indigenous people are just beautiful
people and they have so much to give. And I just
think if more organizations took the time ahead
of time to understand them, I think they would
be a lot more successful in their approaches,
right? Yes. Hear, hear. I think non -Indigenous
companies and others are sometimes worried that
they don't understand the differences between
the different communities and cultures, and that
sort of holds them back. maybe a bit embarrassed
that they don't understand it all, but Indigenous
people are quite open and they love somebody
who wants to learn and they want to share with
people like that. So that's good encouragement.
Yeah, absolutely. And we've heard over our podcast,
talking with different people, similar things.
The Japanese will show up in a partnership or
the Koreans come and they know exactly that they're
on the start of a journey. Whereas perhaps other
Canadians or Americans or maybe the British and
others show up and, oh, we know you. So let's
get down to the deal. Whereas most of the world
works like the Indigenous people of Canada do.
Let's get to know each other before we do a deal.
So it's interesting. And that's a huge competitive
edge, I think, now for Canada. One hundred percent.
Yeah. It has to make sense to both parties, right?
It's not a I'm coming in and saving you or I
have more to offer than you do. Really, both
parties have a lot to offer, but you need to
take the time to understand each other more.
Yes. Well, I think I think we've we've used up
more of your time than we planned. No worries.
So why don't we just do a wrap up and then see
one can come in. Thank you on behalf of Rob and
I and everyone at the Canadian Indigenous Investment
Summit. It has been great, Nicole, to have you
on the program representing your firm and your
community and just reinforce one of the great
entrepreneurs in Canada. So real wonderful to
have you here. Thank you very much. Thank you
for having me. It's been an honor. Yeah, thank
you, Nicole, for taking the time and sharing.
As much as you have with us, there's so much
to learn from your story. So congratulations
and all the best. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you
to Nicole Burke Boucher for sharing your insights
with us. And thank you for viewing and listening.
Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit
taking place on the 8th of April. Be sure to
share, subscribe, and leave a review on your
favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening
to Drum Beats. Until next time.