WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.069 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.929 --> 00:00:15.250 I'm Mark McNack, and with me is my co -host, 00:00:15.369 --> 00:00:18.649 Rob Brandt. And this is our second podcast in 00:00:18.649 --> 00:00:21.449 a two -part conversation with Jeffrey Sear, founder 00:00:21.449 --> 00:00:23.109 and managing partner of the Raven Indigenous 00:00:23.109 --> 00:00:26.910 Outcome Funds, the team pioneering outcomes -based 00:00:26.910 --> 00:00:31.420 financing in Indigenous communities. In our first 00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:34.520 podcast, Jeff took us inside the origin of Indigenous 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.380 outcomes financing and showed how Raven raised 00:00:37.380 --> 00:00:40.100 tens of millions of dollars, delivered community 00:00:40.100 --> 00:00:43.079 -led projects, and kept investors coming back. 00:00:43.619 --> 00:00:47.299 Today we go further. Jeff breaks down what makes 00:00:47.299 --> 00:00:49.640 Raven fundamentally different from other outcomes 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.719 funds around the world, where the biggest investment 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:54.960 opportunities are emerging in the Canadian Indigenous 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:58.590 economy, and why international capital, from 00:00:58.590 --> 00:01:01.869 the US to Europe to Asia is now knocking to get 00:01:01.869 --> 00:01:06.469 in. If part one proves the model can scale, the 00:01:06.469 --> 00:01:09.609 second episode explores the next wave of measurable 00:01:09.609 --> 00:01:15.430 impact. Let's dive back in. Outcome -based finance 00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:17.549 obviously has some precedence internationally 00:01:17.549 --> 00:01:22.549 in the US and I think Australia as well. And 00:01:22.549 --> 00:01:25.269 of course, London is a home for impact investing. 00:01:26.170 --> 00:01:32.209 What makes Raven different? Yeah, look, I think 00:01:32.209 --> 00:01:35.170 leadership in England and Denmark and make -home 00:01:35.170 --> 00:01:37.569 capital in the States. So Bridges, the Denmark 00:01:37.569 --> 00:01:39.430 stuff on type 2 diabetes, which we also have 00:01:39.430 --> 00:01:41.849 one investment that will be ready to go early 00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:45.069 this year, and make -home capital States and 00:01:45.069 --> 00:01:48.209 Bridges in the UK have funds. Why is this different? 00:01:49.569 --> 00:01:53.109 I think it's the way that we center community. 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:57.319 And we look at the community priorities and develop 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.159 with them what the intervention is. Because it's 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.420 not always straightforward. First of all, each 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:05.200 community is different. And so you need to be 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.300 cognizant of what assets they already have and 00:02:09.300 --> 00:02:11.960 what assets they need to bring as part of the 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:15.460 investment to make it happen. That community 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:17.969 -centered part is... Probably what saves all 00:02:17.969 --> 00:02:19.650 the investments at the end of the day. Because 00:02:19.650 --> 00:02:21.729 investments always get into little hiccups and 00:02:21.729 --> 00:02:24.270 barriers and bumps. And it's your relationship 00:02:24.270 --> 00:02:25.710 with the community and the community's desire 00:02:25.710 --> 00:02:28.009 to lead it and see it forward. That's the thing 00:02:28.009 --> 00:02:29.810 that sees the investment through to the end of 00:02:29.810 --> 00:02:32.870 the day. The second thing is we don't let the 00:02:32.870 --> 00:02:36.509 capital determine what the investment is. And 00:02:36.509 --> 00:02:38.849 sometimes in some outcomes -based funding we've 00:02:38.849 --> 00:02:40.550 seen, especially in one -off projects around 00:02:40.550 --> 00:02:43.030 the world, the capital is telling you what they're 00:02:43.030 --> 00:02:45.939 going to do. And here's the issue I can sometimes 00:02:45.939 --> 00:02:47.699 get into with government commissioned outcomes 00:02:47.699 --> 00:02:50.599 contracts, which the UK does a lot of as well. 00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:55.020 I think it does great things. But I think the 00:02:55.020 --> 00:02:57.340 responsiveness and building resilience in communities 00:02:57.340 --> 00:02:59.860 where we need to be globally, economic structures, 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.199 that sort of thing we've seen through COVID and 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:04.979 financial crisis and trade war crisis, whatever 00:03:04.979 --> 00:03:07.699 you want to name, that community resilience is 00:03:07.699 --> 00:03:10.479 really important. So it's a different way of 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:12.300 doing it and it's a different way of valuing 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:15.349 the outcomes. From an Indigenous perspective, 00:03:15.750 --> 00:03:19.050 like maybe it's, this is why we led them. If 00:03:19.050 --> 00:03:21.870 they want to start with elders homes, yeah, do 00:03:21.870 --> 00:03:24.129 that. That's important for a number of reasons. 00:03:24.210 --> 00:03:28.129 So responsive listening, putting the management 00:03:28.129 --> 00:03:30.629 capacity in the community, supporting that, leaving 00:03:30.629 --> 00:03:34.169 it there is really critical for us. And we're 00:03:34.169 --> 00:03:40.080 not seeking extractive returns. So there's a 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:41.879 limit to what you can do with outcomes financing, 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:43.919 and I think what you should do in terms of your 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.819 return profile for investors. Don't get into 00:03:46.819 --> 00:03:51.139 this if you want to be driving Lamborghinis at 00:03:51.139 --> 00:03:53.020 the end of the day. This is not that sort of 00:03:53.020 --> 00:03:57.139 financing place. But you can do a lot of impact 00:03:57.139 --> 00:03:59.080 and community through it, and investors can get 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:00.800 a decent return. And we can talk about how the 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.219 return, I think, works for investors, if you 00:04:04.219 --> 00:04:06.419 want. How I think it's, in my experience, as 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:09.789 to where that's going. Sure. Let's talk about 00:04:09.789 --> 00:04:12.129 that. That would be great. Yeah. And this is 00:04:12.129 --> 00:04:14.069 learning by experience because when we first 00:04:14.069 --> 00:04:16.350 did this, I wasn't sure how investors would respond. 00:04:16.790 --> 00:04:19.829 Right. But as we went through it and, you know, 00:04:19.850 --> 00:04:22.149 the due diligence process with investors, exhausting 00:04:22.149 --> 00:04:27.189 as that can be, the investors themselves started 00:04:27.189 --> 00:04:29.430 to respond to it because they want to put it 00:04:29.430 --> 00:04:32.839 in their portfolio. And they needed to know a 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:34.639 way to think about it. Like, what asset class 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:37.139 is it really? Like, they're trying to structure 00:04:37.139 --> 00:04:39.639 into things that they know, right? And it kind 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:42.379 of breaks some of those models. Yes, absolutely. 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:46.300 Right? How do we fit it in the box? Yeah. And 00:04:46.300 --> 00:04:48.680 so what it turns out, it was the CIO somewhere 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:50.420 who said this to me, I can't remember, said, 00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:53.420 well, you know what? It looks and acts and feels 00:04:53.420 --> 00:04:57.220 like a fixed income instrument. Yeah. If you're 00:04:57.220 --> 00:05:01.370 getting your return in five years. And it's a 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:05.170 5 % to 7 % return profile that looks and feels 00:05:05.170 --> 00:05:08.990 like a fixed income product. And of course, we 00:05:08.990 --> 00:05:13.430 secure the outcomes purchasing before we do the 00:05:13.430 --> 00:05:15.810 contract, before we do the work and the investment. 00:05:15.990 --> 00:05:18.569 So then you've decreased the risk profile on 00:05:18.569 --> 00:05:22.430 it. This, I think, has appealed in a time of... 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:26.889 Uncertain liquidity in VC and PE, it's appealed 00:05:26.889 --> 00:05:29.350 to the investor class in a way that I didn't 00:05:29.350 --> 00:05:33.129 really anticipate at first. I thought maybe I 00:05:33.129 --> 00:05:35.610 was Pollyannish. I thought the impact would appeal. 00:05:36.029 --> 00:05:38.110 But as you start getting into the investment 00:05:38.110 --> 00:05:40.829 discussions, it's both. You needed both, right? 00:05:41.149 --> 00:05:43.449 And I think also it's a unique, like indigenous 00:05:43.449 --> 00:05:45.269 investment vehicles are few and far between. 00:05:45.550 --> 00:05:48.850 You know, if you're not doing resource extraction 00:05:48.850 --> 00:05:50.990 or infrastructure, like... big infrastructure 00:05:50.990 --> 00:05:54.370 builds, how many indigenous investment vehicles 00:05:54.370 --> 00:05:59.149 are there to you? So I think that's, and like 00:05:59.149 --> 00:06:02.790 I said, we picked up momentum from the institutional 00:06:02.790 --> 00:06:06.189 class in the last four or five months. And I 00:06:06.189 --> 00:06:09.050 think getting to the final close is not going 00:06:09.050 --> 00:06:11.509 to be as difficult as I thought, potentially, 00:06:11.689 --> 00:06:15.430 a year ago. So because the interest is very high, 00:06:15.449 --> 00:06:19.100 a lot of it coming out of the US, frankly. And 00:06:19.100 --> 00:06:20.959 I think it would appeal to European investors 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.199 as well. If you think about it like a fixed income 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.180 product in an indigenous space, it makes good 00:06:26.180 --> 00:06:29.899 sense. It makes good sense because you're frontline 00:06:29.899 --> 00:06:32.740 on climate change, like you're frontline adaptation 00:06:32.740 --> 00:06:38.740 work. And I think that gets people excited. There's 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:41.839 room in the fund. I know there's investors. If 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:43.480 there's the robs of the world listening to this 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:47.279 podcast and they want to get involved, our website, 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:52.540 ravenoutcomesfunds .com or jeff at ravenoutcomesfunds 00:06:52.540 --> 00:06:54.540 .com. I'm happy to give up my email address. 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:56.420 Not my phone number today, but the email address. 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.579 And folks can just reach out. And we have a couple 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:05.639 European investors. We have a slew of American 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:07.399 and Canadian investors involved. I was going 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.319 to ask if you've had interest already from overseas. 00:07:11.460 --> 00:07:16.220 Yeah, from Switzerland and Germany in particular. 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.779 But I am also, you know, it's expensive to run 00:07:20.779 --> 00:07:22.319 around the world and get in front of investors, 00:07:22.459 --> 00:07:25.000 which is why podcasts like this are. So like 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:26.959 the exposure is important because people don't 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:29.740 know what they don't know. And we're a very small 00:07:29.740 --> 00:07:33.920 firm. So, you know, to advertise is tricky. And 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.540 there's a lot of competition for capital. And 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:39.480 if you're not AI, you know, competition for capital 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:42.259 is tough, right? these days. But you've got a 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:45.519 really unique structure, maybe a unicorn. If 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:50.160 you're able to combine impact with security and 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:57.399 a secured return, that's a hard product to beat. 00:07:57.899 --> 00:08:00.120 And I know there are some limits, you said, on 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.300 what you can do, but there's endless demand, 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:07.660 I would have thought, in Canada for that kind 00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:11.639 of investing. Yeah, I think people are becoming 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:14.720 aware of it, to your point. And I mean, we haven't 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:17.060 had the fund out like it's just over a year. 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:20.720 It got a little slowed down, the fundraise, I 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.839 think for a couple of reasons. We're all aware 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.680 of these things coming south of the border, which 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:31.040 made a whole bunch of investors just pause for 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.879 a bit, not make certain decisions, which is exactly 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:36.559 what happened when I was raising funds during 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.809 COVID. Which is exactly what happens during financial 00:08:39.809 --> 00:08:42.970 crisis. You just pause. The money still wants 00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:45.190 to find a home and still wants to earn on itself. 00:08:45.509 --> 00:08:48.009 So at the end of the day, it's started to open 00:08:48.009 --> 00:08:50.669 up. And I think people are looking for a different 00:08:50.669 --> 00:08:55.669 type of investment that feels solid. What other 00:08:55.669 --> 00:08:57.649 kinds of projects do you see in the pipeline? 00:08:59.429 --> 00:09:04.450 Yeah. So one of the big ones that we have, it's 00:09:04.450 --> 00:09:06.210 very well developed. We're just waiting to... 00:09:06.989 --> 00:09:09.830 complete the outcomes purchaser sign. It's a 00:09:09.830 --> 00:09:15.250 type 2 diabetes remediation initiative. And we've 00:09:15.250 --> 00:09:16.409 been working on it for a number of years. And 00:09:16.409 --> 00:09:18.129 so this actually sat with our foundation for 00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:19.250 a while because it needed to develop because 00:09:19.250 --> 00:09:22.590 type 2 diabetes outcomes are a little more complicated. 00:09:23.470 --> 00:09:25.870 But the science isn't. The science has actually 00:09:25.870 --> 00:09:29.409 been well known for 50 years. And we now know 00:09:29.409 --> 00:09:31.879 that Ozempic won't solve the problem. of type 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.720 2 diabetes. It can assist. It's just a tool in 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:36.820 the toolkit. But what you really need to do is 00:09:36.820 --> 00:09:40.580 change behaviors and change access. So where 00:09:40.580 --> 00:09:42.860 diabetes programs have failed is that they're 00:09:42.860 --> 00:09:45.720 not culturally built by the community to be executed 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:47.940 in the community and owned by, which is what 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:51.700 we did with Wasagamak First Nation, a northern 00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:54.799 Manitoba First Nation. The rates of diabetes 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:56.879 in those communities, in our communities, are 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:00.639 extraordinary. They're bad in mainstream society. 00:10:00.779 --> 00:10:03.620 They're three to five times as bad in indigenous 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:07.059 society. Yes, I recall that. And if you're under 00:10:07.059 --> 00:10:09.100 the age of 25 and you're a First Nations person, 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.980 you have an 80 % chance of being type 2 diabetic 00:10:12.980 --> 00:10:16.580 in your lifetime now. The costs for that are 00:10:16.580 --> 00:10:21.240 extraordinary. So in the communities, this is 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.879 the former, it's called the Assinio Nation now, 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:25.940 but it's the former Island Lake region of Manitoba, 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:28.340 northern Island Lake regions, where you need 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:30.059 lots of data on this stuff. These are very data 00:10:30.059 --> 00:10:37.379 -centric models, yeah. We know that this year, 00:10:37.460 --> 00:10:39.700 approximately 99 .95 % of people will be diagnosed 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:42.779 with type 2 diabetes, newly diagnosed. That represents 00:10:42.779 --> 00:10:46.100 $25 million of cost to the healthcare system. 00:10:46.509 --> 00:10:49.590 Those 90, there's 1600 other people with that 00:10:49.590 --> 00:10:51.470 to have to do these communities, by the way. 00:10:51.750 --> 00:10:54.529 And every year you'll add 90 more. And those 00:10:54.529 --> 00:10:56.509 numbers are not going down. They're increasing 00:10:56.509 --> 00:10:58.190 and they're getting into younger populations. 00:10:58.830 --> 00:11:01.690 So when you stand back and if you think of systems 00:11:01.690 --> 00:11:03.649 investing or systems thinking, if you want to 00:11:03.649 --> 00:11:08.710 do it that way, that driver far outstrips clean 00:11:08.710 --> 00:11:12.210 energy and adaptation. It is such a massive cost 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:14.090 driver. And you know, healthcare systems can 00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:16.440 barely keep up and indigenous people. Especially 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:17.919 remote indigenous people not getting service 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:22.080 anyways. So this project, which we call the Mino 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.159 -Yawan type 2 diabetes reduction, which means 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:30.740 living the good life, is very specific training 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:32.700 and teaching. We work with Western University. 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.379 We built curriculum and program, employing local 00:11:35.379 --> 00:11:38.700 people to be life coaches, as I think the shortest 00:11:38.700 --> 00:11:40.080 word to it. I don't know if it's a great word, 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:44.080 because it's about culture, food, diet. exercise, 00:11:44.139 --> 00:11:46.879 the intermixing of that, and mental health on 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.659 top of it, right? And so it puts together a three 00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:54.120 - to four -year package that will reduce type 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.600 2 diabetes in a couple hundred people in that 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:00.740 community and save radical amounts of money just 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:03.639 by managing diabetes to stay where it is. Never 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.509 mind bring it down. Just get it stuck in place 00:12:06.509 --> 00:12:09.269 for a minute here and not drive up costs. And 00:12:09.269 --> 00:12:11.370 so that's one of the projects. We're working 00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:14.610 on solar. We're working now on air source heat 00:12:14.610 --> 00:12:21.230 pumps. We are looking at a very interesting biochar, 00:12:21.470 --> 00:12:26.070 if you know what biochar is. It's taking organic 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:28.710 waste, so food waste from municipalities, organic 00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:33.830 waste, organic waste from forestry and agriculture. 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.340 And you turn it into char. It's not by burning. 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:39.159 It's by actually a condensing process. So it 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:40.740 turns into fur line. So we're looking at something 00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:42.220 there that looks interesting. So we get approached 00:12:42.220 --> 00:12:44.059 with a lot of different things. We have to make 00:12:44.059 --> 00:12:47.100 the outcomes argument for our fund, which, and 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:50.299 some of this stuff is very easy to do. So our 00:12:50.299 --> 00:12:52.980 investment thesis is to increase the well -being 00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:57.600 of Indigenous people and Mother Earth. We put 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:59.580 those into the mix, and there's a lot of things 00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:02.100 that we can do that are really interesting. And 00:13:02.100 --> 00:13:04.000 we're also looking at scaling, and we're talking 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.779 to the Kearney federal government about scaling 00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:09.200 our work on outcomes -based finance for the government 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:11.419 as a whole to start thinking differently about 00:13:11.419 --> 00:13:14.379 how it uses public dollars. So we're kind of 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:17.639 trying to move the market to where we can have 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.820 much larger funds and much larger investments. 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:22.919 I think, though, that the investments will not 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.769 be like... $200 million. There'll be a series 00:13:25.769 --> 00:13:28.409 of $5 to $10 million ones that work at the community 00:13:28.409 --> 00:13:32.169 level, but there's just a lot more of them. And 00:13:32.169 --> 00:13:34.470 you'll get that impact that way. So it's kind 00:13:34.470 --> 00:13:37.730 of scale by breadth as opposed to by depth is 00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:40.269 where I think it goes. Because that big money 00:13:40.269 --> 00:13:42.370 is out there on infrastructure, as we know. There's 00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:43.909 lots of big spending there, so we don't need 00:13:43.909 --> 00:13:47.309 to be there. Right. And coming back to the outcomes, 00:13:47.529 --> 00:13:50.210 the security of the outcomes is because you're 00:13:50.210 --> 00:13:53.269 consolidating. federal and provincial programs 00:13:53.269 --> 00:13:56.409 that are designed to serve one person at a time, 00:13:56.429 --> 00:13:58.629 but you're able to go and put together and say, 00:13:58.690 --> 00:14:01.490 how do we take this program and scale it? And 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:06.070 that's how you get your guaranteed return. Is 00:14:06.070 --> 00:14:09.350 that correct? Yeah. And I don't like to use a 00:14:09.350 --> 00:14:11.730 guarantee, but I like to say as an outcomes purchaser, 00:14:11.789 --> 00:14:13.929 based on us doing our work well and verifying 00:14:13.929 --> 00:14:16.029 the outcome, guarantee is too much, a step too 00:14:16.029 --> 00:14:19.860 far for me. And for them, I'm sure. The way that 00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:21.679 that works is three ways, though, just to be 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:23.440 clear. One, we either guarantee the outcomes 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.120 purchase on an individual investment. We're going 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:29.019 to do 50 houses here. We're going to do solar. 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.080 We're going to do retrofits. And you get the 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.460 government department to sign an outcomes contract 00:14:32.460 --> 00:14:34.879 with you and they'll repay Raven, blah, blah, 00:14:34.899 --> 00:14:38.940 blah. The second one at scale is both CMHC and 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:42.960 Efficiency Manitoba really want to see this work 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:47.480 for Ford. So they pooled capital with us. 20 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.240 million, 10 million pools that we can just draw 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.840 on. Which is great because it gives the security 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:56.039 of we can keep the investment train going, right? 00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:58.940 You can just keep doing the disk. Right. And 00:14:58.940 --> 00:15:00.799 that's because your reputation, because you've 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.259 delivered for them. So now you're a trusted partner. 00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:06.500 And the process is like, it's very transparent. 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:08.419 Like if you get into our data room, you'll see 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.600 our process. And the third way to do this is 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.720 through a much larger sort of what I call a macro. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:17.279 which is what we're trying to do with the federal 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.539 government now. Let's get on a macro scale. We 00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:22.879 don't need to hold the capital at Raven. In fact, 00:15:22.899 --> 00:15:25.440 it's better if they do to some degree. Let's 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.379 say you do half a billion dollars. Federal government 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:30.720 puts us in a red -circled fund. They keep the 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:35.019 money. But they agree to buy outcomes on a contract 00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:39.480 -by -contract basis, sort of centralized, agree 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.019 to buy the outcomes. And then you've market built. 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:45.600 at that point right so it's not just raven doing 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.580 it such as raven outcomes out there it's joe 00:15:49.580 --> 00:15:51.899 blow here they're non -indigenous of course can 00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:54.279 do it you know um which is where you want to 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.480 go so that to answer your question mark the kind 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.320 of there's three kind of methods towards it that 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:03.940 seem to work really exciting what a great thing 00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:06.480 to wake up to every day oh how am i going to 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.980 save the world and Help the Indigenous communities, 00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:11.779 right? That's a great way to start your day. 00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:15.259 Yeah, I don't know if I wake up every day thinking 00:16:15.259 --> 00:16:17.779 that. Mostly I'm like, huh, what about that investment 00:16:17.779 --> 00:16:20.779 memo? Where's that at? The typical stuff people 00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:23.879 worry about. Yes. Is that taking up your full 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:28.299 time, Jeff, these days? Did I read you traveled 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:31.740 maybe to the Vatican? I don't know how recent 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:38.220 that was. Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah, 00:16:38.259 --> 00:16:41.399 I had met the Pope, the new Pope. The Vatican, 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:46.059 that was in October, November last year. So my 00:16:46.059 --> 00:16:48.940 second time there, the Vatican has something 00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:52.419 called the Laudato Si, which is the former Pope 00:16:52.419 --> 00:16:59.139 Francis wrote about how do you invest for people 00:16:59.139 --> 00:17:02.620 and planet, like for common people and planet. 00:17:02.779 --> 00:17:06.039 He was trying to move. Not only Catholic institutions, 00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:09.359 but religious faith -based investors, which is, 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:11.460 by the way, a massive pool of capital globally. 00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:16.859 Very massive. From Islam to Judaism to Christianity. 00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:21.200 There's a big pool of capital out there. Towards 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.759 investing differently. That includes the impact 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:25.920 investing space in particular, right? Because 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:27.980 you're looking for impact. That isn't just a 00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:33.779 return. And this past fall was the new Pope. 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.559 Pope Leo's sort of affirmation and kind of refining 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.859 that and kind of building that out. So what they 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:44.380 were looking for is, I guess, innovative solutions 00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:48.579 to getting that impact globally. And of course, 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.680 there's a history between Indigenous people and 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:55.259 the church that I think, you know, good hearts 00:17:55.259 --> 00:17:58.180 and good minds at the Vatican are seeking to 00:17:58.180 --> 00:18:00.259 address. I mean, institutions like that don't 00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:03.109 move. awfully quick, but they are moving. So 00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:06.130 I was invited along with others, a couple other 00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:09.470 Canadians who were there, but lots of people 00:18:09.470 --> 00:18:11.289 globally who are looking for new. And we were 00:18:11.289 --> 00:18:14.670 there to kind of share our experience and where 00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:18.750 we thought it could go. Fantastic. Great honor 00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:23.269 and great opportunity to be speaking. As you 00:18:23.269 --> 00:18:27.029 said, they move slowly, but they do move. And 00:18:27.029 --> 00:18:33.119 Earth is obviously, Very important. We all live 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.299 here. There's nowhere else we're going. Yeah, 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.359 yeah. And like some tech evangelists, I don't 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.700 think we're quickly going to populate other planets. 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.819 Maybe one day. We'll see who takes them over 00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:51.180 first. Yeah, I think there's an alignment globally 00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:54.279 that we understand, I think, from the investor 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:58.079 community to a degree that... We have one planet. 00:18:58.099 --> 00:19:01.680 It's a limited planet, and we need to find ways 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.079 to work within those boundaries. I think we're 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.779 doing a small part of that, trying to do a small 00:19:07.779 --> 00:19:09.759 part in that. I'd like to see the institutional 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.680 capital in some of it. ESG investing is a thing. 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.400 I don't always think it's as detailed as it could 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:22.339 be, as robust as it could be. But moving towards 00:19:22.339 --> 00:19:26.529 it. I mean, people may be a little shocked about 00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:28.430 the sort of incoming trade war and what's that 00:19:28.430 --> 00:19:31.309 done to certain investment theses out there. 00:19:31.849 --> 00:19:36.609 But I think folks haven't let go of the idea 00:19:36.609 --> 00:19:40.750 that you can invest for good and still get returns 00:19:40.750 --> 00:19:43.769 in a better way. So I don't think that's going 00:19:43.769 --> 00:19:45.230 anywhere. It may not be talked about as much, 00:19:45.230 --> 00:19:46.750 but it's not going anywhere as far as I can tell. 00:19:47.789 --> 00:19:51.069 But people can prove me wrong. I mean, I think 00:19:51.069 --> 00:19:54.250 this is south of the border. There's many things 00:19:54.250 --> 00:19:56.789 I guess you don't talk about anymore, but all 00:19:56.789 --> 00:20:00.150 things pass. And for the rest of the world, it's 00:20:00.150 --> 00:20:03.609 still very important. And what you're talking 00:20:03.609 --> 00:20:05.890 about and the issues you've raised about community 00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:08.549 and power to communities and how do you give 00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:11.309 control and that's happening everywhere, including 00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:15.069 in the UK. You know, how do we get the whole 00:20:15.069 --> 00:20:20.049 country going? So what you're saying has a lot 00:20:20.049 --> 00:20:22.759 of relevance for just... outcome funds in the 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.119 uk and what they're trying to do and shift communities 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:28.640 yeah outcomes fund in the uk have some very cool 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.579 investments by the way yes they're all over yes 00:20:31.579 --> 00:20:35.259 they're very interesting yeah in a global gathering 00:20:35.259 --> 00:20:40.640 like that uh jeff did you come away uh where 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.579 did you think canada sat in the global world 00:20:45.579 --> 00:20:48.079 of whether it's impact investing or the indigenous 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.000 economy generally I think in the Indigenous economy, 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:55.500 as to that one's birth, I'm closer to it. Canada's 00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:59.259 definitely ahead of the curve in a lot of areas. 00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:05.380 I think, why is that? Relationship of Indigenous 00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:07.539 peoples, hard -fought relationships, we stand 00:21:07.539 --> 00:21:10.420 on the shoulders of giants, our ancestors. When 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:12.700 you talk about legal decisions, Supreme Court 00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:14.759 decisions, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.079 stuff in the Constitution. and then when yeah 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.339 i would say it's a decade ago or more i can't 00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:25.099 put a firm finger on it when indigenous people 00:21:25.099 --> 00:21:28.160 are moving from surviving to thriving into that 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.619 space and then just when we originally did raven 00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:34.220 capital the first we were the first globally 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:37.079 which i didn't know at the time i'm a little 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:39.180 shocked because canada is not the home for really 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:43.579 big capital you know what i mean so but i've 00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:47.650 seen it take up globally after the fact. There's 00:21:47.650 --> 00:21:49.809 not a lot, but there's been some that's occurred. 00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:52.869 So I think Canada has a leadership side on the 00:21:52.869 --> 00:21:54.470 Indigenous economy because of the importance 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:56.349 that that plays in the social fabric of Canada, 00:21:56.470 --> 00:21:59.430 too. And I think folks like yourselves and others 00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:01.509 said, yeah, we should be doing more. And it's 00:22:01.509 --> 00:22:04.369 a black mark on our history. And it's only good 00:22:04.369 --> 00:22:06.089 for all of us if Indigenous people in Canada 00:22:06.089 --> 00:22:09.130 do well. Economically, socially, spiritually, 00:22:09.349 --> 00:22:10.750 whatever we want to think about. And good for 00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:16.119 the planet. Globally, though, There's been some 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:20.039 interesting moves afoot. There's been some innovative 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:24.319 stuff coming out of the U .S. in pockets, Indigenous 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:26.859 -wise in pockets. So you take New Mexico, that 00:22:26.859 --> 00:22:29.079 area, take Portland, that area, take south of 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:30.940 the Great Lakes, Minneapolis. There's some very 00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:35.460 interesting funds like the Indian Collective, 00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:38.880 OUISTA, CDFI. You take these things that are 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.380 going on there and they're starting to move the 00:22:41.380 --> 00:22:46.279 markers. They're not interesting. Globally. Not 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:49.240 as much. New Zealand has some interesting, but 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.319 they approached us. And I think I'm heading to 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:53.500 Australia in March by invitation to speak to 00:22:53.500 --> 00:22:56.839 a group on things a little differently. On the 00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:58.900 global economy, which is your broad question, 00:22:59.140 --> 00:23:02.619 how do you think Canada sits? I think respected 00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:10.059 in the global economy and pragmatic about certain 00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:13.039 things. I don't know if we're seen as risk takers. 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:17.740 And the way that, this is me just musing here 00:23:17.740 --> 00:23:21.200 openly on a podcast, take a grain of salt. But 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:25.680 I think we have a lot to share and to bring forward 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.380 globally. And I think the more investment we 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:34.380 invite from Europe, Asia, like you take Singapore 00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:38.670 and you take... you know uh dubai you take the 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.410 big in london the big financial centers and the 00:23:41.410 --> 00:23:42.750 more investment we bring into canada the more 00:23:42.750 --> 00:23:44.329 exchange of ideas we have i think the better 00:23:44.329 --> 00:23:47.190 the better we're going to be for it and the more 00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:50.029 we can share and learn for example i didn't know 00:23:50.029 --> 00:23:52.490 that qatar was one of the biggest owners of canadian 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:56.750 ports that's really interesting when you start 00:23:56.750 --> 00:24:01.099 thinking about how mixed we are globally in these 00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:02.680 things. I don't know. I don't even think I came 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:04.680 close to answering that question, Rob, but do 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:06.359 with it what you know. No, no. Your perspective 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:11.220 is, yeah, it's certainly in line with our experience. 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.680 And it's individuals like yourself, leaders, 00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.559 Indigenous leaders that I think make the Canadian 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:22.279 space unique. So thank you for all. We're trying 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.740 to drive things. You do. Yeah. Yes. I think I'd 00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:28.900 be really interested to hear what your viewers, 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:32.450 listeners, have to think or say. If there's people 00:24:32.450 --> 00:24:35.630 who are interested, super open to having conversations, 00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:39.450 super opening to do a follow -up if that's required, 00:24:39.650 --> 00:24:42.329 if people want to dig into it. Our website is 00:24:42.329 --> 00:24:45.190 really instructive. It's newly done just the 00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:47.170 last year, and it's kind of helpful to get your 00:24:47.170 --> 00:24:51.549 head around it. But I think Outcomes Finance 00:24:51.549 --> 00:24:55.490 is another tool in the toolkit of addressing 00:24:55.490 --> 00:24:59.089 socioeconomic inequalities. redistributing power, 00:24:59.289 --> 00:25:02.170 redistributing wealth, so we get better outcomes 00:25:02.170 --> 00:25:05.089 for society. So that's where I kind of leave 00:25:05.089 --> 00:25:08.589 it there. Yes. Okay. Well, we have had good conversations 00:25:08.589 --> 00:25:11.650 over here and are having conversations with the 00:25:11.650 --> 00:25:14.210 Impact Investment Institute and other groups 00:25:14.210 --> 00:25:16.789 here who are really interested in becoming aware. 00:25:17.349 --> 00:25:19.769 As you said, there's not the same degree of awareness 00:25:19.769 --> 00:25:24.630 one would think of what you're doing and others. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.759 Given it's such a home for green finance and 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:34.680 ESG and these other issues, the city's starting 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.279 to take a look and think, okay, we need to be 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:39.140 doing something. With the change in leadership 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:42.039 in Canada, the change in leadership south of 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:45.339 the border, it's a whole new world. It's these 00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:49.079 common values that will drive those who want 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:54.259 to remain fighting together in the good fight. 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:58.799 to make every community, every country and our 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.460 part of the world that much better. So I think 00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:06.220 there's a huge opportunity. Hopefully we'll have 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:09.259 you come over to the summit this year. It's the 00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:11.299 third annual summit. I think you'd find there's 00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:14.400 a lot of useful conversations. It's been great 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.660 to meet you, Jeff. Great conversation. Well, 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:20.259 Jeff's here, founding and managing partner of 00:26:20.259 --> 00:26:24.559 the Raven Indigenous Outcomes Funds. Thanks so 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.779 much for your time. As I said before, thanks 00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:31.839 so much for all you do. Innovate and make a real 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:36.339 impact to Indigenous communities around Canada. 00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:42.319 Yawan. Yeah. Marcy Chow. Thank you both. Thanks 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.579 for the invitation. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you 00:26:46.579 --> 00:26:48.819 to Jeffrey Sear for sharing his insights with 00:26:48.819 --> 00:26:51.140 us. And thank you for viewing and listening. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.980 Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit 00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:58.099 taking place on the 8th of April. Be sure to 00:26:58.099 --> 00:27:00.279 share, subscribe, and leave a review on your 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:02.940 favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening 00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:04.819 to Drumbeats. Until next time.