Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are joined today by Matthew Jackson, Vice
President of Indigenous Partnerships and Business
Development at Hydro One Networks Incorporated,
Ontario's largest transmission company. operating
over 90 % of the province's transmission grid.
Hydro One Networks Inc. is in the middle of a
multi -billion dollar capital investment program
that's doubling Ontario's transmission capacity
by 2040. What makes it exceptional is the 50
-50 equity partnership model with Indigenous
communities. In our conversation, you'll discover
why Ontario has quietly become one of the jurisdictions
with the fastest transmissions development timelines.
You'll learn how Indigenous equity partnerships
actually accelerate those project timelines rather
than delay them, and understand why First Nations
are now actively advocating for Hydro One's projects.
This is actually a benchmark case study demonstrating
the value of Indigenous partnerships and reinforcing
Indigenous partnerships are at the heart of smart
investment decisions in Canada. Welcome. Matthew
Jackson, Vice President, Indigenous Partnerships
and Business Development from Hydro One. Great
to have you on the podcast today with us. Thank
you. Looking forward to it. Morning, Matthew.
Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me.
So a little bit of background, Matthew. Just
can you talk about, introduce yourself to our
UK and investor audience and also tell us about
your... about Hydro One and your role there and
what you've achieved over the past few years.
Excellent. Would love to. And thanks for having
me this morning. Before I get started, I do just
want to recognize the territory that I'm broadcasting
to you today from. So I am joining today from
Tkaronto, otherwise known as Toronto, and it's
a traditional territory of many nations, including
the Huron -Wendat, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinaabeg.
And I did want to recognize that it's part of
the treaty territory of the Mississauga of the
Credit First Nation, covered by Treaty 13, otherwise
known as the Toronto Purchase Agreement. Before
I get started, I just want to recognize that
Hydro One's head office is located in the traditional
territory in the treaty lands of Mississauga
of the Credit First Nation. So a little bit about
Hydro One as we get started. So Hydro One is
the largest transmission company in the province
of Ontario. We operate well in excess of 90 %
of all transmission in Ontario. And we serve
as well through our distribution system, 1 .5
million customers across the province. And one
of the stats that I like to share when I speak
about the company and the regions of the province
that we serve, We have 1 .5 million customers
and 1 .6 million electricity poles across our
franchise area. That really speaks to the vast
remote reach of the territories we serve. And
when you think about Ontario, so Ontario is the
largest province in Canada. The landmass of Ontario
alone is nearly five times the size of the United
Kingdom, and that really speaks to the rural
and remote parts of the province that we serve
through our transmission and distribution system.
So we're an Ontario -based company, and we serve
1 .5 million customers with over 9 ,300 employees
across the province. And what about yourself,
Matthew? Tell us a little bit about your background
and where you grew up. Sure. So thanks for that.
And I grew up a small town kid here in Ontario,
grew up about three hours north of Toronto in
the traditional territory of the Saugeen Ojibwe
Nation in a place called the Bruce Peninsula.
Grew up in a small town living in between two
First Nation communities. And from there, started
my journey into the electricity and energy space
about 18 years ago. Spent the first 13 years
of my career working in the oil and gas sector
here in Ontario and made the switch into the
electricity system about seven years ago. And
I've been with Hydro One. building Indigenous
partnerships in the electricity space for just
coming up on five years. And it's been a remarkable
journey that I'm looking forward to talking to
you guys about this morning in terms of our new
approach to partnership. Yeah, and talk to us
about what attracted you to Hydro One in the
first place. That's a great question. And I think
what attracted me first and foremost was the
ability to lead work that we could have an impact.
And I knew when I started the conversation with
Hydro One that there was a real desire to do
two things. First and foremost, to map a new
path with Indigenous governments across the province,
recognizing that we needed to rebuild the electricity
system in Ontario. And in order to do that, it
was going to take... real change and real action
as it related to reconciliation. So I've seen
the opportunity to lead work that had purpose,
coupled that with, I love doing nothing more
than building big things. And Hydro One is in
the business today, building a lot of big things,
big infrastructure across the province. So when
you have the opportunity to marry those two things
together, it was a pretty exciting proposition.
Just for our listeners, because when you go back
in history, which is one of the reasons they
brought you in. And Rob, I seem to remember Tabitha
Bull from Canadian Council for Indigenous Business
talking about her experiences when she was young.
And she's around our generation. OK, I think
a bit younger than certainly myself. But Hydro
One did not have a great reputation. So I think
this is a clear example of, you know, the way
of working in the past. was not going to work,
wasn't really working effectively and going forward
to succeed, they had to turn things around. So
I think that's part of your story, Matthew, in
joining the organization at the time. Can you
talk a little bit about that? We don't want to
spend too much time on the past, but it's important
for people to understand this is an organization
that's pivoted almost 360. Yeah, I think it's
an important question, Mark. I think before we
have a conversation about the future, we need
to recognize the past. And the past behind us
is one of a pretty harsh reality in the sense
that Indigenous communities and nations borne
the brunt of infrastructure development in the
past and did not reap the benefits. And that
is the unfortunate legacy of the Canadian story.
There was a rapid development of infrastructure
in the 50s, 60s and 70s that had major impacts
on Indigenous territories and communities across
the province. And Hydro One had a role in that
in terms of being a former crown corporation,
being the company that built out. primarily the
transmission and distribution systems and rural
and remote parts of the province. So we do have
to recognize that. And we do have to have open
and honest conversations about that because there's
no way in which we can ask First Nation governments
to enter into partnerships moving forward in
terms of new infrastructure without having that
honest conversation. And that's been a large
sort of motivator in terms of getting this right
the second time around. I certainly can't control
the sort of actions of the company from previous
generations, but certainly can play a role in
mapping out a better future. And I think the
important thing to recognize on this, Mark, is
this is not a Hydro One story. This is a story
of First Nation governments standing up. and
challenging Hydro One to do better and helping
guide the way. And Hydro One, thankfully, has
been in a position whereby we had leadership
listening and investing time and effort into
understanding the direction First Nation leaders
would like to see us go this time around. So
this success is really built on the input, the
guidance, and the willingness First Nation leadership
have demonstrated to work together in good faith
to map this new path forward. Maybe in that context,
you also mentioned that Hydro One was a crown
corporation. Can you also talk about that transition
so people understand where Hydro One came from?
Like a lot of companies in the UK, they stayed
on companies, but I think that also played a
role in what's happened where we are today. For
the first nearly 800 years of Hydro One's existence,
we were a government -owned crown corporation
that was tasked with building out and maintaining
the electricity transmission and distribution
system here in Ontario. During the 1990s, there
was a... rapid phase of breaking up of the energy
system and opening up the system to more competition
and more sort of opportunity that came from that.
So we did carry that legacy. And then in 2018,
the provincial government, the government of
Ontario, who was the shareholder of Hydro One,
made the decision to privatize Hydro One. So
for the last number of years, we have been operating
as a publicly traded company. And I think that's
played a big part in enabling us to become innovative,
nimble and progressive in our approach to these
types of partnerships. It is the right thing
to do, but it's also inherently good for business.
Listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange and market
capitalization, roughly $30 billion. Is that
right, Matthew? Yeah, just north of there and
growing. four or five years for Hydro One in
terms of growth, both in that time phrase, but
also forward looking. We are in the phase of
one of our most rapid sort of periods of investment
in recent memory. And that's exciting, but comes
with its challenges in terms of making sure the
work we do underpins that growth. And that four
or five year period coincides with a change in
approach to working with Indigenous. people too,
which also was about the time you arrived at
Hydro One. Was it that change that brought you
in or were you part of that decision -making
process? And maybe talk to us about that landmark
change of approach. Yeah, I reflect on the approach
and the change often. And the remarkable thing
about the change is that it had been a change
led by many people. And I talked a little bit
earlier. about the leadership shown by First
Nation partners from across the province challenging
Hydro One to do better. And I think that's where
the change started. When I arrived at Hydro One
five years ago, we found the company at what
I describe as an inflection point. We had two
transmission lines that were under. development
early development we had the wassigan transmission
line in northwestern ontario and the chatham
by lakeshore line here in the southwestern part
of ontario the industrial heartland of the province
both of those projects were mired in delay both
of those projects were suffering from fractured
trust between hydra one and first nation governments
And our partners on the Wassigan transmission
line at one point lost total confidence in Hydro
One's ability to build this infrastructure in
a good way and to get the fundamentals of partnership
right. And it was their leadership and their
challenge that really led Hydro One to the edge
of that inflection point and we had a choice
to make. Do we pivot in a dramatic way and do
things big and differently? Or do we continue
to keep our head in the sand and try and repeat
the mistakes of the past? And thankfully, our
senior leadership team, our board of directors,
a number of my colleagues from across the company
leaned into listening to what First Nation governments
were telling us. And we were hearing consistently
from First Nation leadership that there was a
recipe and a roadmap. in the spirit and the intent
of the treaties that were signed that underpin
Canada, in that infrastructure should be built
in partnership, benefits should be shared equally,
and there should be collaboration and decision
-making. And we really, from there, work to build
a model around what we heard from communities
as being important. And that's why I'm always
very careful to take credit for the work. I think
the work has been the result of senior First
Nation leaders taking positions and helping guide
the way. Elders from communities contributing
and providing guidance, as well as a number of
senior leaders and team members from Hydro One
that have all really invested our hearts and
our souls into trying to get this right. We don't
get 100 % of everything right, but we're trying
our best. to really map this path out in a good
way. And it's been a remarkable success. Just
on that, Matthew, so a couple of questions for
you to talk further about. I have a number that
Ontario Hydro engages with over 130 Indigenous
governments. So if it's anything that ballpark
will be of interest to our listeners over here
thinking, how do you manage that? And also about
the 50 -50 model. Can you talk us through both
those issues and whatever order you think is
best to set the scene? Because I think this is
a real story that everybody can benefit from
knowing more about. So thanks for that, Mark.
And I talked a little bit at the start about
the vastness of the territory in which Hydra
One serves. That provides us a unique opportunity
in the sense that we have the opportunity to
work with over 130 different Indigenous groups
and communities from across the province. I would
say, historically speaking, companies like Hydro
One and industry in general spent a lot of time
focusing on how to manage the Indigenous risk.
For the last two or three decades, that's been
the dialogue in the Canadian context in industries.
How do we manage the Indigenous risk? Because
we've seen a long list of infrastructure development
opportunities in Canada suffer from delay or
cancellation because they couldn't get the fundamentals
of partnership right. Part of the shift at Hydro
One has been a complete rethink of how we look
at not the Indigenous risk, but how do we embrace
the Indigenous opportunity? And that... shift
in mindset has been fundamental to the new direction
that we continue to map out. When you can make
that shift and when you start thinking about
the opportunity that comes with the relationships
we have with 130 communities across the province,
that's a unique competitive advantage that if
we get it right, no other company can compete
on because we have the long -term relationships,
we have the ability to partner, but that takes
work. And I think that's been a core focus of
our work over the last five years as one, changing
the DNA of Hydro One and the way we think away
from the risk to embracing the opportunity. And
then as we think about the opportunities, getting
back to grassroots, deep, meaningful relationships
where we're no longer showing up in communities
when we have a project to talk about. Our goal
and the... point that we're rowing towards is
being the company that communities look to and
see as having value in terms of that relationship
over the long term, so that when we want to talk
about a transmission line or an infrastructure
development, we're their natural choice. So it
really has been that focus on shifting away from
the historic management of risk philosophy into
one of embracing Indigenous partnerships as a
competitive opportunity. And we've seen enormous
commercial success from that shift in approach.
So describe that new, that policy, the 50 -50
policy for us, Matthew. So the First Nations
Equity Partnership model is something I think
all Hydro One team members and community partners
are quite proud of. Back in 2022, Hydro One,
together with a number of First Nation governments
from across the province, announced a commitment
to a 50 -50 equal ownership model on all future
transmission lines over $100 million in investment.
That essentially was a public commitment from
Hydro One to offer equal ownership in the transmission
lines that we build out moving forward. And it
committed us to not only the 50 -50 equal ownership.
But working together from the development stages,
the very earliest development, the very earliest
thinking of project development, we're now partnering
with communities to make sure their perspectives,
their goals, their aspirations are all covered
in those plans. So it really is, again, shifting
away from that historic model of simply consulting
on projects towards a model that is similar to
sort of thinking about co -development of infrastructure.
So the model was developed at a time when we
had two transmission lines that were mired in
delay and likely to face a number of years of
opposition and challenge and fractured relationship
from communities. I'm proud to report the Chatham
by Lakeshore transmission line came into service
a year ahead of schedule and close to $30 million
under budget because we were able to turn our
relationships around with our five First Nation
partners in the Southwest. So a huge success.
And those savings are savings that help create
downward pressure on rates. $30 million less
invested is $30 million less hitting the rate
pair. Not all of those savings were accrued from
the equity model, but a large portion could be
because getting the partnership right allowed
us to construct quicker, which meant overall
better outcomes. And as it relates to our Wassigan
transmission line, a $1 .2 billion investment
in northwestern Ontario. That line suffered from
delay at the beginning. We have entered into
construction. I'm proud to report and I'm very
proud of the fact that we've been able to earn
the full consent and support of all nine First
Nation governments who have partnered on that
line with Hydro One. So construction's well underway
and progressing in a really good fashion. Wow,
really, really impressive. I think when you...
Talk through those numbers. You know, transmission
lines, they're big projects. And when we look
at Canada right now, under Prime Minister Carney
and, you know, 31, 32 projects on a list, and
some have been announced so far, it demonstrates
working with the Indigenous peoples, you know,
brings bottom line benefit. Things happen quicker,
under budgets, hopefully most of the time. But
if you don't work with the Indigenous people,
your projects aren't going to happen on time
because they're just not going to get built.
And you're going to spend a lot of money unnecessarily
because you haven't approached it the right way.
So I think those are great lessons for our audience.
Matthew, those equity, the 50 % stakes, you're
not giving those away, are you? That's a great
question and probably one of the most common
questions I get. And the short answer is no.
We partner with Indigenous communities on the
development of the infrastructure. But then we
collaborate with those First Nations to support
their investment into 50 % ownership in the equity
in the line. So First Nation governments are
becoming equity investors and owners in the infrastructure.
And we help along the journey of that process
to make sure that access to capital is not a
barrier to the model's implementation. But the
short answer is the nations are going out to
secure capital to make their investments in the
line. And we're excited about that opportunity,
but working hand in hand with our partners to
make sure capital is available, just in terms
of the size of the investment. associated with
the portfolio of transmission that Hydro One
is developing. So I talked about the two transmission
lines that were in a challenging position five
years ago. Those two lines are moving forward.
We are also in the process of developing or conducting
early engagement with communities on potential
transmission for upwards of 14 transmission lines.
So we talked about two lines struggling to 14
transmission lines in various forms of development
in Ontario. Just to put some context, Rob, around
the size of the equity investment that we're
partnering on. By the mid part of the 2030s,
we expect that we should be able to facilitate
somewhere north of $2 billion in First Nation
equity ownership in the transmission system in
Ontario. So that is the opportunity and the challenge
in front of us is making sure that financing
that $2 billion of investment is doable and we're
confident it will be. And I guess one of the
exciting changes in Canada for First Nations
and other Indigenous groups is the availability
of financing tools that weren't maybe available
even 10 years ago. And it's programs like the
Ontario Loan Guarantee Program, the Federal Loan
Guarantee Program for Indigenous Equity Investments,
the First Nations Finance Authority. All these
tools being ramped up that make buying into equity
stakes a more realistic proposition. It's been
a fairly remarkable shift, I would say, in the
last three or four years in terms of the availability
or the potential for First Nation financing to
enter into investments like the ones we're talking
about today. Almost immediately after announcing
the First Nations Equity Partnership model, we
shifted our focus at Hydro One to thinking about
what could we do to help remove those potential
barriers to First Nation financing into the system.
So we've been working on this now really since
2014 when we've enabled the first equity investment
in our Bruce to Milton line. But we've really
ramped up our efforts over the last three or
four years since we announced the commitment
to the equity model. And we've done a number
of things. So you referenced the provincial and
federal loan guarantee programs. We've been collaborating
with our partners and the provincial and federal
governments to make sure that those programs
continue to support the needs and goals of First
Nations looking to invest in the transmission
system. Hydro One has invested a significant
amount of time talking to our lending community
to make sure that they were aware of the model
and understood the merits. And the third thing
I'll say on that is the transmission business
is a rate regulated, relatively low risk investment
and a long term investment. So we have been out
telling the story to the investment community
that. There is a relatively low risk investment
here. There is a very high impact return in terms
of long -term revenue streams for these communities
to benefit from. And there ought not to be the
historic barriers that once were around in the
way of financing these deals for all of those
reasons. And I think there is a shift happening
where you're seeing... provincial and federal
governments step up. You're seeing the lending
communities start to open their mind and be far
more comfortable with this. And I think you're
seeing that moment of reconciliation kick into
action in Canada, where it's about all of us
leaning in, whether it be the developer, the
financer, the provincial, the federal governments,
together with First Nation governments coming
up with solutions. And we've come from a place
where three or four years ago, we were quite
concerned about the ability to finance some of
this equity to relatively comfortable knowing
that there should be access to capital out there.
And we continue to invest a lot of time and effort
with our partners to make sure that we're well
ahead of that and proactively ready to support
those investments. And for foreign investors,
there's an opportunity there because typically
the financing Stack starts with a loan to the
First Nations syndicate, and then that loan gets
guaranteed by the types of programs we've been
talking about, government programs, or in some
cases, the First Nations Finance Authority is
financing itself on a long -term basis. But there's
a need for private capital in the first instance,
and there's no reason why foreigners, foreign
investors can't. be the providers of that capital
and have their loans guaranteed by those same
programs. I think I go back to sort of the comments
I made about the opportunity that exists in terms
of investing time and effort into building relationships
with First Nation communities in Canada and taking
a long -term approach. to this opportunity that
is materializing. And the reality is that as
reconciliation continues to drum forward in Canada,
First Nation communities are going to continue
to build and participate in the economy in more
meaningful ways. It really is the only path forward
for Canada. And I think it's one that all Canadians
should be excited about and all foreign investors
in terms of an opportunity to participate in
helping advance that agenda of reconciliation,
recognizing the opportunity, but also contributing
to the build -out of the next generation of the
Canadian economy. These things are all tied together,
and one can't happen without the other, but we
are going to see First Nation governments become
larger stewards of the economy, and there is
the opportunity to start thinking about that
now and partnering early. And typically it's
not just one or two First Nations, is it, that
you're partnering on a particular transmission
line? Mark mentioned earlier 130 First Nations
across Ontario involved in partnerships. So it's
typically a group of First Nations along or affected
by a proposed transmission line that are getting
involved, coming together, forming partnerships
themselves to then become. 50 -50 partners with
Hydro One. So it's interesting that groups of
First Nations are coming together and maybe talk
about how it is to manage a partnership that
is itself a partnership of First Nations. Partnerships
are hard work. And I don't know that that's any
different from a partnership in the household
to a partnership in business to partnership in
developing infrastructure. with First Nation
communities. This has been an enormously heavy
lift on both sides of the table. First Nation
governments are ramping up their ability to participate.
At the same time, companies like Hydro One are
working to map a new path forward. So there is
a lot of work that goes into getting these partnerships
right. That said, once you get the fundamentals
of the partnership right, oftentimes we're able
to move faster, better, and more efficiently.
So we've got, in some instances, five community
partners on a transmission line, upwards to as
many as 19 potential partners on some of our
larger investments in the north. I often describe
it as this, you know, the task that Hydro One
has in front of it right now is through collaborating
with partners, we have to find consensus amongst
governments. And those governments all have different
views, cultural protocols, goals, aspirations.
So it is complex work. I would say two things
have been critical to the success Hydro One has
found and the advice I would give to investors
thinking about looking to participate. First
and foremost is time invested up front. is always
a very good return on investment. Getting those
fundamentals right, investing early in the relationship,
getting to know people before the project commences
is always my first bit of advice. And the second
thing I would say is critically important is
when you're starting that early engagement, be
in a position to clearly articulate your guiding
principles, how you're going to operate. And
most importantly, listen so that you're being
responsive to the unique needs of the communities.
Nine times out of 10, communities are signaling
back to the party they're dealing with what they'd
like to see in terms of what success is in their
mind. Listening to that and being responsive
to that early on is going to tee the conversation
up for a far more constructive outcome. That's
great relationship advice, whether in the home
or outside the home or in business relationships.
Don't take them for granted. They're lots of
times hard work, but so rewarding when you get
them right, because together, generally speaking,
generally, we are better together. Talk to us
about the future then. What's the next? Five
years looks like, what does the next five years
look like for Hydro One? It's an exciting time
for Hydro One and it's an exciting time for Ontario.
When you look at the economic opportunities in
Ontario as it relates to investments that are
coming online in terms of manufacturing, re -industrialization,
we're seeing critical mineral development. move
forward in a more meaningful way. There really
is an exciting future ahead of Ontario, I believe.
And Hydro One is at the core of that. I often
describe Hydro One as the delivery company, the
Amazon delivery company for electricity in the
province. And thanks to the plan laid out by
the provincial government in Ontario, their long
-term views on energy and the investments that
they're moving forward to make sure that Ontario
has the energy today, but well into the future
to meet the future needs. There's an enormous
opportunity, whether it be in the transmission
space, the critical mineral space, the generation
space, manufacturing. All of that success is
contingent upon finding these new paths forward
with Indigenous governments. I think for Hydro
One in the next five years, probably what's most
exciting, a couple of things. Proving that this
can be done. And I think we're well on that track
and a lot of people are watching. We're moving
forward the largest reinvestment into the transmission
space in Ontario in generations. We are reinvesting
in doubling the size of the transmission grid
over the next number of years. And we're doing
so in a way that we've got the number of transmission
lines that I talked about all moving forward.
What's the goal? Sorry, double the size of the
grid within how many years? Yeah, by the end
of the 2030s, we'll have seen about a doubling
of the grid here in Ontario. We've got, as I
mentioned, 14 projects that have either been
designated to Hydro One or were engaging in very
early conversations with partners about the potential
for them to move forward. Those projects are
from one end of the province to the other. And
it is a remarkable investment. It's the largest
investment of transmission moving forward in
Canada. It is highly complex. But we're moving
those transmission lines forward in a way that
we are not seeing the same type of opposition,
delay, or frustrated processes that we're seeing
in other jurisdictions. Ontario is quietly becoming
one of the quicker jurisdictions to develop transmission
in through. This new partnership approach by
Hydro One through the leadership that First Nation
governments are showing. We have had recent modernization
of the environmental assessments in Ontario to
make that whole process work a little bit faster
and better. But at the core of that is First
Nation consent and buy -in. I think quietly here
in Ontario, we've done a pretty remarkable thing.
We're shepherding those reinvestments forward,
and there's not been a lot of controversy around
the transmission space. So you asked, Rob, about
the focus for the next five years for Hydro One.
It really is about, number one, proving that
we can deliver on our commitments and execute
this infrastructure in a good way with First
Nation communities. And for Hydro One, thinking
about what's next in terms of continuing this
expansion of the notion of partnership with Indigenous
communities, all with the goal of Hydro One being
the chosen and trusted energy partner to Indigenous
communities across the province. Matthew, any
objections to any proposed transmission lines
from the Indigenous community so far? To date,
I would say we're quite satisfied with the level
of excitement and buy -in and support we've seen
from First Nations from across the province.
I touched a little bit earlier on the hard work
that goes into building and maintaining these
partnerships. I often describe the reality we
face now as... We're not having easy conversations.
We're having different types of hard conversations
than we were a number of years ago. But they're
more constructive conversations. We're at the
table early before a project has even been fully
thought out. We're reflecting input from communities
in those processes. And we have community leadership
at the table helping make decisions from the
beginning. All of that has led to a remarkable
amount of support for these types of projects,
which I think signals to me that when energy
infrastructure investments are done the right
way, First Nation communities are interested.
They are excited about contributing and participating
more in the Canadian economy. So no, we've not
seen that. I talked about the... Total number
of transmission lines that we're working on.
There are a number of transmission lines right
now that Hydro One is conducting early engagement
on. In the last two transmission lines that sort
of advanced here in the province and are working
towards potential sort of development with Hydro
One. It's not been Hydro One advocating to the
government for those lines to be designated our
way. In those two circumstances, we've actually
had the First Nation governments in their territories
advocating to government on behalf of Hydro One
for the project that they would like to see move
forward in their territory. So again, shifting
away from the Indigenous risk and embracing the
opportunity, that shift in focus has... sort
of led to the best case scenario I think you
can be in as an energy developer, which is where
you have First Nation governments advocating
to grow your business. And that's what we've
seen. So that's the bar we continue to work towards.
Great message for our European listeners, especially
who sometimes think that Canadian Indigenous
people are against all development. And so we
keep driving home the message that no one approached
in the right way. Indigenous people are quite
supportive and want to be partners. I think that's
it. And that's what we've seen. Not all projects
likely will get the full endorsement of Indigenous
communities, but certainly when done right, I
think there's an enormous amount of interest
and excitement about the opportunities that this
new infrastructure can create. both in terms
of the short and long -term opportunities associated
with that participation that avails itself. Yeah.
Well, Matthew Jackson, the Hydro One story is
such a great one, a pioneer in the area of meaningful
Indigenous participation in big projects. Lots
of lessons for Canadians and overseas listeners.
It's been a real pleasure. talking to you this
morning and learning a bit more about Hydro One,
past, present, and future. Thanks for taking
the time. Thanks so much for having me and really
enjoyed the conversation and hope this message
lands both here in Canada and across on the other
side of the sea for those European investors
that are thinking about opportunities that may
exist here in Canada. Thank you very much and
great to see you again, Matthew. Thanks, Mark.
Appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you to Matthew Jackson
for sharing his insights with us. And thank you
for viewing and listening. Mark your calendars
for the upcoming 2026 Summit taking place on
the 8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe,
and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel.
Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. Until next
time.