WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.069 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.710 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.910 --> 00:00:15.509 I'm Mark McNacken. My co -hosts Robert Brant 00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:17.949 and I are joined today again by Aude Rogerson, 00:00:18.190 --> 00:00:20.789 Director and Head of Fixed Income Origination 00:00:20.789 --> 00:00:23.649 at the London Stock Exchange Group, based in 00:00:23.649 --> 00:00:26.679 New York. Previously in part one, we explored 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:29.980 why the UK and Europe hosts over 90 % of global 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:35.219 sustainable bond fund assets and how LSEG's $400 00:00:35.219 --> 00:00:38.280 billion sustainable bond market has evolved over 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:42.000 10 years to serve communities worldwide. In this 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:44.920 podcast, we address the questions that matter 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.960 most. How do you actually access these markets? 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:52.939 Aude walks us through the preliminary steps. 00:00:53.469 --> 00:00:56.590 debt issuers must take, from creating sustainable 00:00:56.590 --> 00:00:59.829 bond frameworks with advisors to engaging European 00:00:59.829 --> 00:01:02.469 impact investors through transparent storytelling. 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:06.390 This is your implementation guide for accessing 00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:09.390 UK and Europe's concentrated pool of impact capital. 00:01:09.870 --> 00:01:12.390 If you missed part one, we recommend starting 00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:16.530 there for essential market context. If not, let's 00:01:16.530 --> 00:01:20.530 dive into the conversation. So how do thinking 00:01:20.530 --> 00:01:23.959 about Indigenous communities and opportunities 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:28.200 and issuers. How does an issuer go about, what 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:30.560 are the preliminary steps you need to think about 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:36.019 if you're going to tap into that market? Yes, 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:40.760 absolutely. So having worked with issuers for 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:43.879 many years as part of the London Stock Exchange, 00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:47.120 but also in my previous life as a VC and banker, 00:01:47.299 --> 00:01:51.739 what we see that it's very important. for debut 00:01:51.739 --> 00:01:55.640 issuers, and that obviously includes the indigenous 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.939 community. The debut access onto the international 00:01:59.939 --> 00:02:03.379 market is really to sort of familiarize themselves 00:02:03.379 --> 00:02:07.739 with investors and tell their stories. And part 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:10.460 of the work for any new issuers coming to the 00:02:10.460 --> 00:02:13.419 market is really to educate the market about 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:17.099 who they are and why are they contemplating accessing 00:02:17.099 --> 00:02:22.110 the market. And it's a process. It's a journey. 00:02:22.250 --> 00:02:24.129 It's really a journey of raising your profile 00:02:24.129 --> 00:02:28.770 internationally and being known. And the point 00:02:28.770 --> 00:02:31.610 with this is when they are ready to issue the 00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:34.389 bonds, investors are already familiar with the 00:02:34.389 --> 00:02:36.830 credit, they're familiar with the story. And 00:02:36.830 --> 00:02:39.069 so they can make an investment decision to place 00:02:39.069 --> 00:02:41.810 an order relatively quickly during the trade. 00:02:42.689 --> 00:02:47.789 So one step that issuers can do... is a practical 00:02:47.789 --> 00:02:51.370 step really is through the creation of a sustainable 00:02:51.370 --> 00:02:54.030 brand framework that I was referring about earlier 00:02:54.030 --> 00:02:58.310 with the help of advisors that have a dedicated 00:02:58.310 --> 00:03:01.830 sustainability team that would well work and 00:03:01.830 --> 00:03:05.610 help issuers define eligible projects that align 00:03:05.610 --> 00:03:09.289 with NICMA principles. Those projects are based 00:03:09.289 --> 00:03:13.669 on the need of the issuer or the community. and 00:03:13.669 --> 00:03:16.629 respond to the key issues that this specific 00:03:16.629 --> 00:03:20.169 issuer faces. So for the Indigenous community, 00:03:20.370 --> 00:03:23.009 it's really about identifying what are the most 00:03:23.009 --> 00:03:25.770 pressing issues that they face and what is the 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:28.610 financing that they need in order to address 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:33.129 those. And the purpose of a sustainable bond 00:03:33.129 --> 00:03:37.629 framework really is to identify where the proceeds 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:42.680 raised with this bond will be used for, whether 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:47.780 it's environmental, social causes, and provide 00:03:47.780 --> 00:03:50.860 transparency to the investment community on where 00:03:50.860 --> 00:03:54.900 the money raised is going towards and what impact 00:03:54.900 --> 00:03:58.360 that money is going to have on the community, 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.039 how the bond proceeds will be tracked, managed, 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:06.310 and allocated. It's really about creating transparency 00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:09.810 and accountability towards investors as to where 00:04:09.810 --> 00:04:14.409 the money goes. Now, when that framework is ready, 00:04:14.909 --> 00:04:19.149 steps that insurers can take is ready to go and 00:04:19.149 --> 00:04:23.829 meet with investors that have a dedicated impact 00:04:23.829 --> 00:04:27.829 mandate to introduce the framework and talk about 00:04:27.829 --> 00:04:34.370 their plan. What's going back to the point around 00:04:34.370 --> 00:04:38.629 international markets, especially for sustainable 00:04:38.629 --> 00:04:42.949 finance, something that's very important actually 00:04:42.949 --> 00:04:46.709 is the fact that Europe, as part of the international 00:04:46.709 --> 00:04:49.930 community, Europe is at the forefront of sustainable 00:04:49.930 --> 00:04:53.990 finance. So there is a certain level of awareness, 00:04:54.149 --> 00:04:58.089 sophistication and appetite for social and sustainable. 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:03.839 issues in Europe. And in fact, Europe hosts almost 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:07.860 90 % of global sustainable bond fund assets. 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.800 So there is a high concentration of impact -focused 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:16.699 investors in Europe. Great. We've discussed the 00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:19.079 benefits of international markets, the sustainable 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:23.100 bond market platform, investor appetite, innovations 00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:26.220 and practical steps. Bringing this all together, 00:05:26.420 --> 00:05:29.490 how do you see... LSEG specifically positioned 00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:32.129 itself as the vehicle to connect Canadian Indigenous 00:05:32.129 --> 00:05:37.769 issuers with European capital. Yeah, so maybe 00:05:37.769 --> 00:05:40.449 I wanted to take a step back a little bit here 00:05:40.449 --> 00:05:43.149 and talk about the way that we work as an exchange 00:05:43.149 --> 00:05:49.529 with our issuer base. And really, when I think 00:05:49.529 --> 00:05:52.949 about it, the way that we work is through building 00:05:52.949 --> 00:05:55.089 a long -term partnership with our issuer community. 00:05:56.199 --> 00:06:01.120 through their journey to raise capital. And I'm 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:04.920 going to use the line of the CEO of the Long 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:08.519 Stock Exchange, Damp Julia Hoggett. She often 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.360 says that listing is not just for Christmas. 00:06:11.620 --> 00:06:15.759 And that really summarizes the value and ethos 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.800 of our exchange. We build a long -term partnership 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.180 with our issuers that goes in three folds. Ahead 00:06:23.180 --> 00:06:26.019 of the transactions. during the transactions 00:06:26.019 --> 00:06:29.199 with the listings of the security and on an ongoing 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:33.339 basis. So if you think about it, the actual listing 00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:38.759 is a small part of what we do. So we thrive to 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.180 build an ecosystem in the debt capital market 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:45.339 space where we collaborate with all key stakeholders, 00:06:45.620 --> 00:06:49.459 issuers, advisors, investors. And how we do that 00:06:49.459 --> 00:06:54.699 is... By playing a role in educating issuers 00:06:54.699 --> 00:06:59.680 on the journey of raising capital. So we organize 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.360 workshops and knowledge focus sessions for our 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:08.279 issuer community. We give a space and a forum 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:11.800 to our issuers with the likes of thought leadership 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.139 roundtables. And we support them in raising their 00:07:15.139 --> 00:07:17.600 profile on a global scene by celebrating their 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:22.569 transactions. So closer to you. Mark and Rob, 00:07:22.709 --> 00:07:26.310 we celebrated milestone transactions and programs 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:29.529 for the province of Newfoundland, for the province 00:07:29.529 --> 00:07:31.029 of Saskatchewan, for the province of Alberta. 00:07:32.269 --> 00:07:35.610 We host our annual Debt Capital Markets Forum, 00:07:35.709 --> 00:07:39.990 where we discuss the most pressing topics in 00:07:39.990 --> 00:07:43.670 the debt space with the DCM community, and we 00:07:43.670 --> 00:07:49.370 give each word the floor to speak. And some of 00:07:49.370 --> 00:07:54.899 the... example of partnerships that we have is 00:07:54.899 --> 00:07:58.459 our work alongside the International Capital 00:07:58.459 --> 00:08:02.040 Markets Association and the issuer, the Islamic 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.519 Development Bank, in publishing guidance for 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:08.480 issuing green social and sustainability sukuk. 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:11.759 So these guidance really explains the type of 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:14.540 project that are likely to be issued by, to be 00:08:14.540 --> 00:08:18.709 eligible, and the steps that... issuers need 00:08:18.709 --> 00:08:22.209 to take in order to issue these green so -called 00:08:22.209 --> 00:08:27.209 instruments. Very informative discussion about 00:08:27.209 --> 00:08:32.450 the role of LSEG. Rob, you've been on both sides 00:08:32.450 --> 00:08:37.409 of the pond now. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:41.269 I've got fond memories of lots of capital raising 00:08:41.269 --> 00:08:45.230 in London over the years by Canadian issuers, 00:08:45.230 --> 00:08:52.909 debt and equity. And when we talk about gaps, 00:08:53.169 --> 00:08:55.590 infrastructure gaps in Canada and the Indigenous 00:08:55.590 --> 00:08:59.690 economy and the need for more private capital, 00:09:00.190 --> 00:09:06.309 Ode has explained well one more tool, one more 00:09:06.309 --> 00:09:09.870 source of private capital in Europe and listing 00:09:09.870 --> 00:09:13.450 on the London Stock Exchange in particular, the 00:09:13.450 --> 00:09:17.759 sustainable bond market is alive and well. in 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:21.759 europe and that's great to hear yes very good 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.320 so the other question i'd have as a canadian 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.059 potential issuer is that's great that there's 00:09:27.059 --> 00:09:33.159 a big sustainable investment community bond market 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.059 in europe but i don't want to go to the trouble 00:09:37.059 --> 00:09:41.299 of listing i just want to tap into that market 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:47.259 privately and raise some money um How do you 00:09:47.259 --> 00:09:52.700 talk about the advantages of listing versus private? 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:57.500 And is it a case sometimes that investors, and 00:09:57.500 --> 00:10:00.259 I came across this when I was working in London, 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:03.899 some investors would say, I've got this much 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:06.779 part of my fund. It's easier for me to invest 00:10:06.779 --> 00:10:11.789 in listed securities. And so if you get a listing, 00:10:11.850 --> 00:10:14.850 you make it easier for me to make my investment 00:10:14.850 --> 00:10:18.470 decision than if it's a private, especially when 00:10:18.470 --> 00:10:22.350 you're talking about a foreign issuer. Advantages 00:10:22.350 --> 00:10:25.789 of listing versus just raising money privately, 00:10:25.889 --> 00:10:29.750 just going to the sustainable investment community 00:10:29.750 --> 00:10:34.549 privately versus the advantages of, oh, it's 00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:37.090 a listed security in London that they're buying. 00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:41.730 So I think the advantage of listing is security. 00:10:43.070 --> 00:10:45.669 And again, I think what's important to say is 00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:48.730 that one can list different types of instruments. 00:10:49.029 --> 00:10:51.710 So there's no real restrictions brought from 00:10:51.710 --> 00:10:56.970 a need for disclosure. But no matter what investors 00:10:56.970 --> 00:11:00.370 the issuer is going to target, there's going 00:11:00.370 --> 00:11:04.309 to be a need for disclosure. It's a market need. 00:11:05.179 --> 00:11:07.559 And we go through as an exchange, we go through 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:12.299 that disclosure. I think the benefit of having 00:11:12.299 --> 00:11:18.080 the instrument listed is that a huge part, a 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:22.399 huge pool of investors require a listing as part 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:27.259 of their investment criteria. So by having the 00:11:27.259 --> 00:11:30.539 bond listed, one is sure just ensures that he's 00:11:30.539 --> 00:11:34.419 able to tap into, to access. the widest range 00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:38.820 of investor possible. And so, as such, you could 00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:43.220 argue that more investors are able to buy the 00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:46.159 bonds, then better the price will be, the cost 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:50.320 of funding will be for what you're sure. We do 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.559 see some private placements that get sold to 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.019 just one investor. They'll get listed on the 00:11:56.019 --> 00:12:00.039 market. But in the market, you also see private 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:04.190 placements that don't get that are unrated. It's 00:12:04.190 --> 00:12:08.529 not the largest part of the universe of insurance. 00:12:09.409 --> 00:12:15.669 Again, because the listing being an investment 00:12:15.669 --> 00:12:20.309 criteria for so many investors, insurers are 00:12:20.309 --> 00:12:23.409 usually better off having the security listed. 00:12:24.769 --> 00:12:29.769 Yeah, great answer. Can I ask one more? But just 00:12:29.769 --> 00:12:35.799 costs. Regulatory. There's time spent. You need 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.960 to be in London or Europe talking to investors 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.539 regularly. What about annual compliance costs 00:12:43.539 --> 00:12:47.779 with listing? If you're talking about raising 00:12:47.779 --> 00:12:55.659 50 or 100 million dollars, say. Yeah. So as a 00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:58.320 sort of a little on a stock exchange and commercial 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.440 organizations that we are there, obviously a 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.919 listing. the listing cost, but it's a marginal 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:08.580 cost when you think about the whole of the transactions 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:11.960 that includes your legal costs with your legal 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:15.139 counsel, underwriting costs and all of that, 00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:20.460 right? And so as an exchange, we have sort of 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:23.080 a cost schedule that it's fairly advantageous 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:28.759 for issuers in a sense that we only charge an 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.039 upfront cost, what we call an admission cost. 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.360 So it's a cost to list the securities and it's 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.840 based on the size of the insurance with a maximum. 00:13:38.379 --> 00:13:42.440 There's a ceiling that they can pay. And there's 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:47.440 no annual cost. So that's very advantageous for 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:53.019 issuers, especially for those who look to issue 00:13:53.019 --> 00:13:58.409 sort of a long tenor, 5, 10, 20. 30 years bond, 00:13:58.590 --> 00:14:01.529 because we don't charge annual fees every year. 00:14:01.929 --> 00:14:05.809 So it's just an upfront one of cost. And then 00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:10.409 that's it, really. Oh, so practically speaking, 00:14:10.750 --> 00:14:13.129 what are the different steps for Indigenous people 00:14:13.129 --> 00:14:16.350 to take before accessing the market? And from 00:14:16.350 --> 00:14:19.570 your perspective, why is it important for them 00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:25.740 to raise the awareness of this approach? As part 00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:29.000 of the London Stock Exchange, we work with a 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.700 lot of debut issuers. We've been working with 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:36.179 debut issuers for many years. And in my previous 00:14:36.179 --> 00:14:42.200 life as a VC and banker, I brought many issuers, 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.279 what we call debut issuers, into the market. 00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:51.389 And so what's important for debut issuers? on 00:14:51.389 --> 00:14:54.730 the international market is for them to be familiar 00:14:54.730 --> 00:14:58.230 with investors and to tell their stories. But 00:14:58.230 --> 00:15:03.769 also for investors to be familiar with the issuers, 00:15:03.769 --> 00:15:10.830 the credit, the story. So part of the work for 00:15:10.830 --> 00:15:16.370 any new issuers is to educate this new market, 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:19.669 this international market, about who they are. 00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:22.419 and why they're contemplating accessing the market. 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:29.080 So it's a process. It's a journey of raising 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:31.779 their profile internationally and being known 00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:36.220 by the investment community outside of any transactions. 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:40.879 And the reason for that is that when the issuer 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:45.360 is ready to tap the market, as a transaction 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.500 is ready in the pipeline, markets are conducive. 00:15:49.149 --> 00:15:52.409 then investors are already familiar with the 00:15:52.409 --> 00:15:55.509 credit. And so they can make an investment decision 00:15:55.509 --> 00:15:59.590 to place an order into the trade relatively quickly. 00:16:01.529 --> 00:16:06.070 So one of the very first things that an insurer 00:16:06.070 --> 00:16:14.610 can do is to work with a set of sort of trusted 00:16:14.610 --> 00:16:21.500 advisors that will help them set up the creation 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:25.379 of a sustainable bond framework. So it's appointing, 00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:31.500 choosing advisors of their choice, maybe, that 00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:36.799 will help them with putting together this sustainable 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:41.360 bond framework. And what it means, it means that 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.639 they will identify eligible projects for the 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.629 bonds that align with ICMA principles. And those 00:16:48.629 --> 00:16:52.289 projects are based on the needs of the issuer 00:16:52.289 --> 00:16:56.289 or the community and are meant to respond to 00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:59.629 the key issues that the community or the issuer 00:16:59.629 --> 00:17:03.509 face. So for the Indigenous community, it's about 00:17:03.509 --> 00:17:07.509 identifying the most pressing issues that they 00:17:07.509 --> 00:17:11.529 face as a community and the financing that they 00:17:11.529 --> 00:17:15.440 need to be able to address those issues. The 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.079 purpose of the sustainable brand framework and 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:24.619 the importance of working on one with the help 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:30.599 of advisors is to re -identify where the proceeds 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.400 raised will be used for. What are the projects 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:37.380 that the proceeds will be used for? And to provide 00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:40.559 transparency to the investment community on where 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.880 the money... race with this bond is going towards 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:48.160 and what impact is that money going to have on 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.200 the community as well as you know how the bond 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.660 proceeds to be tracked how it will be managed 00:17:55.660 --> 00:18:00.559 and how it will be allocated so it's about creating 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.819 transparency and accountability towards investors 00:18:03.819 --> 00:18:10.730 as to where the money grows once this framework 00:18:10.730 --> 00:18:15.589 is ready, a step forward, sort of a second step 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:20.869 that issuers can take is go and meet with investors 00:18:20.869 --> 00:18:25.269 that have a dedicated impact mandate to introduce 00:18:25.269 --> 00:18:29.670 that framework and talk about their plan. And 00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:32.150 the way that it can do that is really with the 00:18:32.150 --> 00:18:35.730 help of their advisors, you know, underwriters 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:40.160 and banks. have a syndicate team, and that syndicate 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.579 team will have relationships with investors, 00:18:43.819 --> 00:18:48.220 including impact investors, and can help set 00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:53.119 up meetings for the issue, whether it's in person 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:59.579 through different locations where there's clubs 00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:01.880 for sustainability, whether it's the likes of 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:07.269 London, across Europe, France, Germany. Or it 00:19:07.269 --> 00:19:12.190 can also be virtual. That's easier and more convenient. 00:19:12.890 --> 00:19:17.250 But going back to the importance of international 00:19:17.250 --> 00:19:20.269 markets, especially for sustainable finance, 00:19:20.670 --> 00:19:24.430 is the fact that Europe is at the forefront of 00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:28.109 sustainable finance. So it's important to sit 00:19:28.109 --> 00:19:31.569 down in front of those investors because there's 00:19:31.569 --> 00:19:34.859 a certain level of awareness. of sophistication 00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:38.119 and appetite for social and sustainable issues. 00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:42.819 And in fact, when you look at Europe in terms 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:47.859 of stats, Europe hosts almost 90 % of the global 00:19:47.859 --> 00:19:51.220 sustainable bond funds assets. So they use huge 00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:53.779 concentrations, high concentrations of impact 00:19:53.779 --> 00:19:58.220 -focused investors in Europe. Well, thank you 00:19:58.220 --> 00:20:00.640 for that explanation. I know our listeners and 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.920 viewers will be very pleased with that. short 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.119 overview of how to succeed with the listing and 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.940 i think your reference to the importance of europe 00:20:09.940 --> 00:20:14.539 will have a lot of relevance uh for them because 00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:17.440 the issues the indigenous peoples have in closing 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.119 the infrastructure gap there's a huge difference 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.640 if you're an indigenous person in canada versus 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.900 non -indigenous there's a huge gap huge gap there 00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:29.809 that is uh has been achieved and there's still 00:20:29.809 --> 00:20:32.309 that gap, but it delivers clear social outcomes. 00:20:32.789 --> 00:20:36.690 So sometimes in Canada, you get lost in North 00:20:36.690 --> 00:20:40.450 America and look south instead of looking across 00:20:40.450 --> 00:20:43.630 the pond. So I think that story, Ode, will be 00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:46.349 very helpful. So once again, Ode, thank you very 00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:48.410 much for your time. It's been great having you 00:20:48.410 --> 00:20:51.849 on. Ode, thanks again for being with us. Great 00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:55.950 to hear about the very active, sustainable. bond 00:20:55.950 --> 00:20:58.130 market in particular in Europe. It's one more 00:20:58.130 --> 00:21:02.089 tool for Canadians and the Indigenous community 00:21:02.089 --> 00:21:04.690 in particular to think about when we look to 00:21:04.690 --> 00:21:08.630 close some of these gaps that we have in private 00:21:08.630 --> 00:21:13.730 capital will be a big need. And so thanks for 00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:17.029 explaining that segment of the investment community 00:21:17.029 --> 00:21:20.869 so well. Bye for now. It's my pleasure. Thank 00:21:20.869 --> 00:21:24.599 you. Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Mark, for Having 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.220 me on this conversation today is really fascinating. 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:32.819 It's really about, it's very close to our mission 00:21:32.819 --> 00:21:35.319 of the London Stock Exchange to help communities 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:39.460 grow and thrive. So it's been a pleasure talking 00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:41.980 to you both. Thank you very much for your time. 00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:47.119 Thank you to Owen Rogerson for sharing your insights 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.059 with us. And thank you for viewing and listening. 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:54.019 Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit. 00:21:54.299 --> 00:21:57.119 taking place on the 8th of April. Be sure to 00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.299 share, subscribe, and leave a review on your 00:21:59.299 --> 00:22:01.960 favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:03.859 to Drum Beats. Until next time.