WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.730 --> 00:00:15.769 I'm Mark McNacca, and I'm joined today by my 00:00:15.769 --> 00:00:19.070 co -host Robert Brandt. Today marks a very significant 00:00:19.070 --> 00:00:21.609 milestone for Drumbeats as we welcome our first 00:00:21.609 --> 00:00:25.489 guest from Latin America. We're joined by Juan 00:00:25.489 --> 00:00:29.559 Dumas, co -founder and partner at Melikina. a 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:32.320 pioneering firm bringing equity partnership models 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.460 to renewable energy projects across Latin America. 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:39.039 Juan's journey began as a mediator, resolving 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:41.619 disputes between development finance institutions, 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:44.880 energy companies, and Indigenous communities. 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:48.640 Conflicts, where he discovered something remarkable. 00:00:49.219 --> 00:00:51.979 Communities weren't opposing projects primarily 00:00:51.979 --> 00:00:55.250 because of environmental impacts. but because 00:00:55.250 --> 00:00:58.090 they were being excluded from economic opportunities 00:00:58.090 --> 00:01:02.149 on their own lands. That insight led Juan and 00:01:02.149 --> 00:01:04.170 his partner, Michelle Haag, to create an entirely 00:01:04.170 --> 00:01:07.069 new approach, drawing directly from Canada's 00:01:07.069 --> 00:01:09.769 30 -year track record of Indigenous equity partnerships. 00:01:10.569 --> 00:01:13.510 In our conversation, you'll discover why projects 00:01:13.510 --> 00:01:15.370 developed with communities from the ground up 00:01:15.370 --> 00:01:18.549 dramatically reduce risk, learn about innovative 00:01:18.549 --> 00:01:20.670 blended finance structures enabling community 00:01:20.670 --> 00:01:24.180 ownership, and understand how the Canadian experience 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:28.620 is being adapted for global application. This 00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:30.939 is exactly the kind of strategic intelligence 00:01:30.939 --> 00:01:32.959 that demonstrates why Indigenous partnerships 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:36.560 deliver superior investment outcomes. So let's 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:39.819 move into the Southern Hemisphere for this fascinating 00:01:39.819 --> 00:01:44.040 conversation. Good afternoon. We're very pleased 00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:47.180 today to have Juan Dumas, co -founder and partner 00:01:47.180 --> 00:01:52.019 at Melikina. South America, and today I understand, 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:55.620 Juan, you're in Ecuador, your home. Welcome to 00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:59.799 the podcast. Thank you. Juan, nice to see you 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:03.319 again. Looking forward to our conversation. Hi, 00:02:03.379 --> 00:02:07.739 Rob. Thank you so much. Me too. So, Juan, when 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:10.120 we last spoke to you, I think you were in California, 00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:13.819 if I recall correctly, and you've had many travels 00:02:13.819 --> 00:02:16.300 since then. So why don't you tell our listeners 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:19.379 and our viewers a little bit about yourself? 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.960 Because your name has come up in many circles 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:28.979 and you're our first guest from South America. 00:02:29.659 --> 00:02:33.000 So we're very pleased to have you here. Thank 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.599 you so much for inviting me. I have to say I 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:38.900 am a very faithful follower of this podcast. 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.379 So when you reached out and invited me to... 00:02:42.650 --> 00:02:46.270 to join you i was absolutely honored so thank 00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:49.889 you so much for that um so i am originally from 00:02:49.889 --> 00:02:53.610 argentina but home today is ecuador i'm in quito 00:02:53.610 --> 00:02:59.830 today i'm a proud father of two and i started 00:02:59.830 --> 00:03:06.870 my career as a mediator and so the truth is that 00:03:06.870 --> 00:03:10.650 i studied law and i didn't like it at all and 00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:14.669 so It was a difficult few years studying law. 00:03:14.870 --> 00:03:17.349 And then towards the end, as I was getting my 00:03:17.349 --> 00:03:21.849 degree, I took some mediation classes. And I 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:24.150 realized that I had found something that I was 00:03:24.150 --> 00:03:27.650 really passionate about. And before dying in 00:03:27.650 --> 00:03:32.330 a big law firm, I would try my luck with mediation. 00:03:32.750 --> 00:03:37.469 And so my first formal job was with a very small 00:03:37.469 --> 00:03:41.699 NGO. uh in argentina i was only starting back 00:03:41.699 --> 00:03:45.460 then back then doing some mediation in public 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:51.460 disputes and i was hired as an admin person and 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:55.919 my goal was to learn as much as i could a few 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:58.060 months in the job i was given an opportunity 00:03:58.060 --> 00:04:01.740 to train myself as a mediator and start doing 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:04.340 some cases with the lead mediators there who 00:04:04.340 --> 00:04:07.759 were fantastic what years are we talking about 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:16.339 Oh, this is 1999. Yeah, I was 23 years old back 00:04:16.339 --> 00:04:20.519 then. It was a great opportunity. And I will 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:22.959 always be grateful to the person who was leading 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:27.339 that organization because giving me an opportunity 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:31.839 to join the team, I had very little knowledge 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:34.899 about mediation, but it changed my life, really. 00:04:35.660 --> 00:04:37.540 Well, I'm not going to hold it against you that 00:04:37.540 --> 00:04:39.899 you didn't want to die in a big law firm like 00:04:39.899 --> 00:04:44.420 I may be destined to. But how did it change your 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:49.240 life? Well, I worked there for four years. I 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:53.600 learned a lot about mediation in public disputes, 00:04:53.819 --> 00:04:56.199 social disputes and environmental disputes. And 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:59.459 that prepared me to then take the next step in 00:04:59.459 --> 00:05:03.420 my career, which was being the executive director 00:05:03.420 --> 00:05:06.709 of another. civil society organization based 00:05:06.709 --> 00:05:10.230 in Quito. That's what took me here. It was a 00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:14.050 three -year contract. And who would have said 00:05:14.050 --> 00:05:17.170 that 20 years later, I would still be here in 00:05:17.170 --> 00:05:20.490 Ecuador and I would have made my life here. And 00:05:20.490 --> 00:05:23.449 this was a different organization in the sense 00:05:23.449 --> 00:05:27.470 that it had a regional scope of work. So it would 00:05:27.470 --> 00:05:33.699 work in Latin America, not just in Ecuador. That 00:05:33.699 --> 00:05:36.500 experience with this organization for six years 00:05:36.500 --> 00:05:43.319 between 2003 and 2009 allowed me to get exposure 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.379 to the region and to the realities of indigenous 00:05:46.379 --> 00:05:53.079 peoples, which to me in Argentina was not as 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:57.660 familiar. I used to spend most of my summers 00:05:57.660 --> 00:06:02.199 in Patagonia and there I was exposed to the Mapuche. 00:06:02.699 --> 00:06:05.620 uh indigenous communities but i would say like 00:06:05.620 --> 00:06:10.720 only like for a few months uh every year when 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.300 i was going there for a vacation but this opportunity 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:18.199 to work in ecuador which is a fantastic country 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:22.560 is it has an unbelievable natural diversity and 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:26.519 cultural diversity um this gave me the opportunity 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:30.360 to understand how indigenous peoples live what 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.779 their challenges are what difference it makes 00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:38.339 to see the world how they see it. And yeah, I 00:06:38.339 --> 00:06:42.060 realized how ignorant I was. And so this helped 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:45.699 me participate in disputes as mediators where 00:06:45.699 --> 00:06:48.839 indigenous peoples would be very active participants. 00:06:49.459 --> 00:06:52.100 What sort of disputes were you mediating that 00:06:52.100 --> 00:06:57.120 would involve indigenous people? So at first 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.019 I was mediating disputes related to natural resources 00:07:00.019 --> 00:07:04.170 management. So, for example, someone wanted to 00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:08.629 create a protected area in lands that were owned 00:07:08.629 --> 00:07:11.850 by indigenous peoples, and maybe they didn't 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:14.089 feel as that they had been properly consulted. 00:07:14.269 --> 00:07:17.589 So I would be a mediator in a situation like 00:07:17.589 --> 00:07:20.970 that. But then I migrated to a different type 00:07:20.970 --> 00:07:25.709 of disputes, which is disputes related to investments 00:07:25.709 --> 00:07:32.329 made by DFIs in Latin America. These development 00:07:32.329 --> 00:07:36.350 finance institutions have an accountability mechanism, 00:07:36.629 --> 00:07:40.269 usually, where communities that feel that they're 00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:44.170 being impacted by one of their investments, they 00:07:44.170 --> 00:07:47.990 can submit a complaint. And these mechanisms 00:07:47.990 --> 00:07:52.069 have the obligation of responding to that complaint. 00:07:52.350 --> 00:07:54.350 And there are different ways in which they can 00:07:54.350 --> 00:07:57.529 do that. But one is through a dialogue process, 00:07:57.610 --> 00:08:02.879 a mediation process. They would engage me and 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:07.199 ask me to travel to these countries where this 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.779 dispute was happening and try to work with the 00:08:10.779 --> 00:08:14.920 communities and with the companies to see whether 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:17.860 there was an opportunity to find a solution through 00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:21.560 a dialogue process. And so I started doing that 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:25.120 while I was still working at this NGO, but then 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.189 I started my own private practice. six years 00:08:28.189 --> 00:08:33.429 after leading the NGO. And I was a mediator between 00:08:33.429 --> 00:08:41.129 2009 and 2022. So a big chunk of my professional 00:08:41.129 --> 00:08:48.269 life has been mediating for or around DFI -supported 00:08:48.269 --> 00:08:52.629 projects. And then I guess carry the story forward 00:08:52.629 --> 00:08:57.370 from 22. What happened? And I'm sure listeners 00:08:57.370 --> 00:09:01.889 may be wondering why a South American mediator 00:09:01.889 --> 00:09:06.409 is on a podcast about Canadian Indigenous investment 00:09:06.409 --> 00:09:10.330 scene, but maybe you can develop the story a 00:09:10.330 --> 00:09:14.710 bit more. Yeah, of course. So I started finding 00:09:14.710 --> 00:09:19.590 myself in a recurrent situation. Many of these 00:09:19.590 --> 00:09:23.710 disputes were about projects that I thought didn't 00:09:23.710 --> 00:09:26.759 have. very significant environmental and social 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.279 impacts. For example, like small hydro run -of 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.860 -the -river projects in Central America, in Guatemala, 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:38.159 in Mexico, in Honduras, different places. But 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.820 the level of conflict around them was completely 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:45.340 disproportionate with the impact. So it was very 00:09:45.340 --> 00:09:48.320 intense. And so you would see communities fiercely 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.539 opposing these projects, burning machinery from 00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:55.460 the companies. The government sending the military 00:09:55.460 --> 00:10:00.399 in. People were killed. So, yeah, tensions would 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.659 rise in ways that you wouldn't fully understand. 00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:08.019 And so I started having conversations with the 00:10:08.019 --> 00:10:12.840 leaders of these communities. And at first they 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:14.840 were off -the -record conversations. And I was 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:18.279 asking them, if this project was yours, would 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.320 you build it? And interestingly, the answer was 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.850 invariably yes. So to me, it became very clear 00:10:26.850 --> 00:10:30.269 that the problem was not that they were that 00:10:30.269 --> 00:10:32.509 concerned about the impacts. They were more concerned 00:10:32.509 --> 00:10:35.330 about being left out of an economic opportunity 00:10:35.330 --> 00:10:38.509 happening in their lands. And this was happening 00:10:38.509 --> 00:10:42.389 over and over again in all of the countries that 00:10:42.389 --> 00:10:46.309 I was working in in Latin America. And so that 00:10:46.309 --> 00:10:50.250 was the spark that led us to me and my partner. 00:10:50.309 --> 00:10:53.259 I'll tell you a little bit about her now. to 00:10:53.259 --> 00:10:57.759 start Milikina because we realized that we could 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.480 do things differently. If you start developing 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.120 a project from scratch with a community and you 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:06.480 find a way in which the community can become 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.519 an equity partner, then you have a better project. 00:11:09.860 --> 00:11:12.019 And we're talking about indigenous communities. 00:11:13.179 --> 00:11:15.720 Yeah, mostly indigenous communities. It doesn't 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:17.980 have to be just indigenous communities, but I 00:11:17.980 --> 00:11:20.799 would say in most of these cases, yes. And the 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.919 communities that we're working with today, they 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:28.340 are primarily indigenous communities. We became 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:31.820 partners with Michelle Haig. Michelle came from 00:11:31.820 --> 00:11:34.639 the private equity world, investing in renewable 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:39.340 energy. The fund she was working for had invested 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:42.960 in a project in Mexico and was facing social 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.220 opposition. I was impressed by the fact that 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:50.279 she and her colleagues had flown from New York 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.259 to Mexico to try to understand what was going 00:11:53.259 --> 00:11:56.059 on and try to improve the project where possible. 00:11:57.610 --> 00:11:59.929 when i came up with this idea of hey can we try 00:11:59.929 --> 00:12:02.389 to do something different and start a company 00:12:02.389 --> 00:12:05.649 uh and i brought this idea to her she said i'm 00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:08.649 happy to to try this with you and so we've been 00:12:08.649 --> 00:12:13.470 doing this uh together ever since and i have 00:12:13.470 --> 00:12:15.629 to say i'll tell you more in a few minutes but 00:12:15.629 --> 00:12:17.730 i have to say this has been the most rewarding 00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:23.350 uh experience of of my life so how did canada 00:12:23.350 --> 00:12:26.669 appear on your horizons of places to look. And 00:12:26.669 --> 00:12:28.549 I think it's timely we're having this discussion 00:12:28.549 --> 00:12:31.990 when COPPA is taking place in Brazil as we speak. 00:12:32.149 --> 00:12:35.269 And there's been some demonstrations as well, 00:12:35.269 --> 00:12:38.029 talking exactly what you're saying about people 00:12:38.029 --> 00:12:41.450 being excluded from the process, that decisions 00:12:41.450 --> 00:12:46.409 are being made without them. So before we started 00:12:46.409 --> 00:12:49.929 our company, we went to some business leaders 00:12:49.929 --> 00:12:53.250 in the renewable energy field and asked them 00:12:53.250 --> 00:12:55.870 whether they would consider including communities 00:12:55.870 --> 00:13:00.049 as partners, as equity partners. And the reaction 00:13:00.049 --> 00:13:05.330 was not very positive. They responded that it 00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:07.629 would be a mess from a governance perspective, 00:13:08.110 --> 00:13:12.210 from a financial perspective. And at first, I 00:13:12.210 --> 00:13:14.289 thought that maybe there was some truth in that. 00:13:14.409 --> 00:13:16.909 But then I started researching what was going 00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:22.929 on in the world. And this was in 2015 or 2016. 00:13:24.649 --> 00:13:28.149 I came across some projects in Canada where communities 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:31.269 were already equity partners. And I realized 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:34.210 that those responses were actually excuses. They 00:13:34.210 --> 00:13:37.549 just didn't want to do it. And I realized that 00:13:37.549 --> 00:13:44.970 Canada had been doing this since the early 90s. 00:13:44.970 --> 00:13:47.570 The first projects that I was able to track in 00:13:47.570 --> 00:13:53.860 Canada started in 1991. And so, yeah, we realized 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:56.720 that people were going to be putting excuses 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.299 if we tried to invite them to do this. So we 00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:02.440 decided to create our own company and do it ourselves, 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:06.440 right? And yes, Canada has been a true lighthouse 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:11.039 for us. I like to say that I have traveled to 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:14.200 the conference of the First Nations Major Projects 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:19.000 Coalition twice. And I like to say that it is 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:22.799 a trip to the future, right? do believe that 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:25.580 what canada has been able to achieve in terms 00:14:25.580 --> 00:14:29.480 of equity partners partnerships is something 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:33.059 that we should all be looking up to in latin 00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:35.799 america and of course canadians will be fast 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:38.039 to say that yes we still have our difficulties 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:41.919 and our challenges and that's true but sometimes 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.080 i think you you don't realize how far you've 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:49.100 come in canada and how much of an example you 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:55.120 are for the rest of the world And so we have 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.360 been learning very many things from Canada. I 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.460 can go on forever on this, but let me summarize 00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:07.559 what we have learned. First is that these partnerships 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.740 can be done in market terms if there is a vision, 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:14.620 if there is courage from both the corporate and 00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:21.179 the community side and the will to do it. several 00:15:21.179 --> 00:15:25.139 projects that were done in the late 90s, early 00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:28.559 2000s, that were done with any kind of support 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.019 from government institutions. They were just 00:15:31.019 --> 00:15:33.279 done because the communities and the companies, 00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:37.340 the leaders there, were ready to do these partnerships. 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.940 So they showed that this can be done and this 00:15:39.940 --> 00:15:42.879 works. And then all the incentives came later. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.259 So I feel that the projects that we are trying 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:48.559 to develop in Latin America, and we'll talk about 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.840 them soon. play that kind of a role. It's like 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.500 showing the market that this can actually be 00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:58.519 done. Second is separating politics from economics. 00:15:59.059 --> 00:16:02.399 You had Matt Jameson in your podcast, and he 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.240 is always very insistent on that. And I think 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.580 that the experience of the Six Nations of the 00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:11.659 Grand River really shows that that is very true. 00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:17.740 And then also that even if Access to capital 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:21.519 for communities can be a big challenge. Loan 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.799 guarantees can play a fantastic role in enabling 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.240 access to capital for communities. Juan, do you 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.179 see some of the financial tools available that 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:36.340 are available in Canada for Indigenous projects? 00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:42.019 Are there similar tools in South America? So, 00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:46.639 no, they aren't available yet. And we are actually 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.639 building a fund that draws a lot of inspiration 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:57.019 from the tools that Canada has implemented. And 00:16:57.019 --> 00:17:00.580 so, yeah, we're drawing from... the experience 00:17:00.580 --> 00:17:02.600 of the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation. 00:17:03.820 --> 00:17:06.940 Shanna Martino has been very generous with us 00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:10.960 and her team has spoken with us to learn from 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.039 them. But we have also seen like what Canada 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:17.259 has been doing with bridge loans, with some convertible 00:17:17.259 --> 00:17:19.680 grants, with different government programs as 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.680 well. None of that is available in Latin America. 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.890 So we actually have to build all that. I'm sure 00:17:26.890 --> 00:17:29.089 we'll talk about the role of development finance 00:17:29.089 --> 00:17:33.789 institutions. They do have an important role 00:17:33.789 --> 00:17:38.369 to play here because the credit rating of our 00:17:38.369 --> 00:17:42.170 state institutions and their balance sheets as 00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:46.150 well are not as strong as those of Canadian provinces. 00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:50.450 The other thing we have learned is that regulatory 00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:53.609 incentives can go a long way. They can really 00:17:53.609 --> 00:17:59.009 help. to take this model to scale so if if you 00:17:59.009 --> 00:18:03.109 establish like some additional points uh when 00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:06.569 you're purchasing doing calls for power and you 00:18:06.569 --> 00:18:09.190 establish that those projects that have equity 00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:11.670 partnerships with communities score more points 00:18:11.670 --> 00:18:14.349 you're creating a really interesting incentive 00:18:14.349 --> 00:18:17.529 if you give those projects priorities to access 00:18:17.529 --> 00:18:22.019 the grid um the same uh and so yeah i've seen 00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:25.279 how different provinces in canada have been you 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.640 know testing these different approaches and i 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:30.819 think they've you know they've done amazingly 00:18:30.819 --> 00:18:35.359 well um if you look at bc's call for power now 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:41.450 in 2024 2025 the same and so Again, here we are 00:18:41.450 --> 00:18:43.809 a company and we're developing our own projects 00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:47.069 in Latin America and advising companies. But 00:18:47.069 --> 00:18:49.309 at the same time, we're working with governments 00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:52.890 and bringing them all this information from Canada 00:18:52.890 --> 00:18:55.670 and saying, hey, this is how they've done it. 00:18:55.829 --> 00:18:58.710 And maybe some of them are not fully applicable 00:18:58.710 --> 00:19:03.369 here, but I'm sure there are ways. Juan, what 00:19:03.369 --> 00:19:06.589 are some of the responses that you're getting 00:19:06.589 --> 00:19:08.690 from the different... governments at national 00:19:08.690 --> 00:19:11.509 and state levels. I think it's really interesting 00:19:11.509 --> 00:19:14.069 in terms of this discussion. You've only mentioned 00:19:14.069 --> 00:19:16.329 government now, up to the whole point of this 00:19:16.329 --> 00:19:19.009 conversation is about the community on the ground, 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:21.450 trying to make a difference. And I think it comes 00:19:21.450 --> 00:19:24.190 also from your background of mediation, because 00:19:24.190 --> 00:19:26.609 you're right there at the, as they used to say 00:19:26.609 --> 00:19:30.130 here, at the coalface, right? And now we've kind 00:19:30.130 --> 00:19:33.329 of come up and you've talked about, you know, 00:19:33.329 --> 00:19:36.349 obviously the credit rating of the Canadian. 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.319 government and provinces are are different than 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:41.720 a number of the countries in latin america but 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.299 can you talk a little bit about your conversations 00:19:44.299 --> 00:19:47.079 with government and what you've seen across the 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.539 region where you're able to comment about how 00:19:50.539 --> 00:19:54.700 different governments perceive enabling empowering 00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:58.059 the indigenous peoples to participate in projects 00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:05.240 yeah i would say that first It is intentional, 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.519 I have to say, from our end, because I think 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:13.200 that for too long in Latin America, we have tried 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.640 to get the state to actually solve all problems. 00:20:16.779 --> 00:20:19.740 And I think that's not the right way to go. And 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:22.519 so what we've tried to do is that this can be 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:26.859 done between a company and a community and show 00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:30.839 the region that it can work that way. Of course, 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.640 if the government... can play a supporting role 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:37.819 and an enabling role for these types of partnerships, 00:20:38.140 --> 00:20:41.079 then they will be adding a lot of value. And 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.400 we have seen in the province of Neuquén in Patagonia, 00:20:44.420 --> 00:20:47.619 where we are developing a solar project with 00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:50.859 Mapuche indigenous community, we have seen that 00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:53.700 the provincial government has been very supportive 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:57.799 of our efforts. And interestingly, they haven't 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:02.160 tried to sort of uh invade our space but rather 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.680 they've been there to say hey whatever you need 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.299 we're happy to support you because you're trying 00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:11.079 something that if it works it can be a model 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.019 for so many other communities in our in our province 00:21:14.019 --> 00:21:17.720 that currently rely on whatever the state can 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:21.339 provide them and you know these are communities 00:21:21.339 --> 00:21:24.220 that live in subsistence economy many of them 00:21:24.220 --> 00:21:29.250 below the two dollar per day per capita And so 00:21:29.250 --> 00:21:34.569 for the government to see a model like this work, 00:21:34.849 --> 00:21:38.710 it is a source of hope and potential transformation 00:21:38.710 --> 00:21:43.329 in the province. Now, I would say that not all 00:21:43.329 --> 00:21:46.890 governments react in the same way, and many of 00:21:46.890 --> 00:21:50.490 them would say... well, this has been tried in 00:21:50.490 --> 00:21:52.910 Canada, but Canada is such a different country. 00:21:52.990 --> 00:21:56.349 It's a developed economy. This doesn't work in 00:21:56.349 --> 00:21:59.009 our region. And again, I believe that's an excuse. 00:21:59.329 --> 00:22:02.349 Of course, we're not copy and pasting what's 00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:06.250 being done in Canada, but we sure think that 00:22:06.250 --> 00:22:10.069 many of the principles and the tools that have 00:22:10.069 --> 00:22:13.670 been applied in Canada are 100 % applicable to 00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:18.599 our region. That's so great to hear. One, we've 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.200 been saying for a while that one of the next 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:25.839 great exports from Canada will be the way we 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.960 structure deals with Indigenous people and corporate 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.900 Canada. And wouldn't necessarily want the rest 00:22:35.900 --> 00:22:39.180 of the world to copy everything that Canada does 00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:43.559 with respect to its Indigenous people, but in 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:47.960 this area. uh we are leading and uh you're one 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:52.420 example of uh outside canada looking at those 00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:55.700 structures and those innovations uh and trying 00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:59.980 to apply them um maybe tell us a bit more about 00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:02.039 the one particular project you're talking about 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.779 and working on now is it one indigenous community 00:23:04.779 --> 00:23:09.160 is it several is it equity how much equity how's 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:13.839 that kind of what sector yeah this is a an 18 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.839 megawatt solar project in northern paragonia 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:21.059 with one community the mapuche mijakeo community 00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:29.220 and they own 9 500 hectares and we helped them 00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:33.059 get the the title to though to the land before 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:36.240 we would start developing the project together 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:44.799 and we we approached them back in 2018 And we 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.079 shared with them that we believe they had the 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:49.680 right ingredients to do a renewable energy project, 00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:54.140 but we would only do it with them if they were 00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:57.740 interested in partnering with us as co -developers 00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:02.220 and being equity partners as well. And it was 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:03.900 interesting. At first, their reaction was like, 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.240 this is too good to be true. And their previous 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:13.910 experiences with... energy companies or other 00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:17.789 types of extractive companies had been very negative. 00:24:18.210 --> 00:24:21.109 And so they had very good reasons not to trust 00:24:21.109 --> 00:24:25.710 me or us, the team that visited them that day. 00:24:26.950 --> 00:24:34.190 But they asked, let's say we say yes, how do 00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:37.670 we become equity partners? Because if you see 00:24:37.670 --> 00:24:40.329 out the window, if you look at the windows, All 00:24:40.329 --> 00:24:42.890 those codes that you can see out there, that's 00:24:42.890 --> 00:24:48.049 all we have. This is a $16 million project. You're 00:24:48.049 --> 00:24:51.750 telling us this is a small project. How on earth 00:24:51.750 --> 00:24:54.490 do we actually participate? Because we're sure 00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:58.589 you're not going to hand out any equity. We started 00:24:58.589 --> 00:25:01.990 there a conversation about how they could be 00:25:01.990 --> 00:25:05.509 co -developers in the project with us. The truth 00:25:05.509 --> 00:25:08.150 is that if they push for permits, permits come 00:25:08.150 --> 00:25:12.880 faster. If they invite investors and banks to 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:16.660 come in, those investors and banks realize that 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:19.220 the risk of social opposition is probably much 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:23.440 lower than in other places. And also that the 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:28.480 potential positive social impact of a project 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:32.579 like this is much better than what other renewable 00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:36.700 energy projects can show. And also the communities 00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:40.890 can attract. companies as off -takers of the 00:25:40.890 --> 00:25:43.250 energy that we will produce together. And so 00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:45.869 they add plenty of value. We've already seen 00:25:45.869 --> 00:25:48.430 this in this project. They add plenty of value 00:25:48.430 --> 00:25:53.069 at the development stage. And so we started doing 00:25:53.069 --> 00:25:56.289 this. Once they got the title to the land, we 00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:58.369 went through all the permitting process together. 00:25:59.180 --> 00:26:02.900 And now we are ready to go to financial close 00:26:02.900 --> 00:26:06.180 next year. We're discussing with different investors, 00:26:06.339 --> 00:26:10.240 with banks and with potential off -takers what 00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:12.960 the structure of the deal will look like. But 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.819 hopefully we can get it built next year or start 00:26:16.819 --> 00:26:22.920 building it next year. And for us, this is only 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:27.960 the beginning. This is a project that... is a 00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:31.259 proof of concept in the region but it has already 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:34.200 sparked plenty of interest elsewhere in other 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.740 countries in the region we actually now have 00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:39.140 with support from the uk government actually 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:44.380 we we have an office in medellín in colombia 00:26:44.380 --> 00:26:48.680 and a team there and we are working with both 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.279 companies and communities that are interested 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.740 in trying this model as well and we're doing 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.819 We're in early stages of new developments in 00:26:57.819 --> 00:27:01.619 different regions of Colombia. So we can already 00:27:01.619 --> 00:27:06.099 see this moving forward. Can you, Juan, tell 00:27:06.099 --> 00:27:08.119 us a little bit more about your involvement with 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.799 the UK government? As you know, we're based over 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:15.619 here in the city of London. And that may surprise 00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:20.420 some of our audience, how they're enabling and 00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:23.119 empowering you and your organization, the communities 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:28.150 you're working with. Yeah, they have a program 00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:32.549 to accelerate the transition to the energy transition. 00:27:32.650 --> 00:27:37.450 It's called UK Pact. And they open courts in 00:27:37.450 --> 00:27:42.150 different countries in the world for organizations 00:27:42.150 --> 00:27:46.769 who can show that they can actually advance the 00:27:46.769 --> 00:27:51.089 energy transition. And so we applied with two 00:27:51.089 --> 00:27:54.640 other organizations from Colombia. and we were 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.519 selected for their funding that will go for this 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:04.160 year and the following year 2026 and so the goal 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:08.160 is to raise awareness about this model show that 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.180 this works provide assistance to communities 00:28:10.180 --> 00:28:13.299 and companies that actually want to do and try 00:28:13.299 --> 00:28:16.500 this model and then also provide some training 00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:20.539 to key people in these these groups and also 00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:25.509 provide some And recommendations for regulatory 00:28:25.509 --> 00:28:29.930 incentives about how this can be scaled up as 00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:35.049 well. So, yeah, we have a very busy year, a couple 00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:38.430 of months now, I would say 18 months ahead doing 00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:42.130 all of this. Yes, quite clearly. And, you know, 00:28:42.190 --> 00:28:44.609 the numbers are big around the globe. And again, 00:28:44.750 --> 00:28:47.250 coming back to what's going on in Brazil at the 00:28:47.250 --> 00:28:49.910 moment, I guess Latin America needs approximately 00:28:49.910 --> 00:28:55.680 700 billion. annually for climate goals right 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.619 so that has to be achieved with community involvement 00:28:58.619 --> 00:29:01.000 otherwise it's not going to happen who would 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:03.720 put their capital at risk if you don't have the 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.660 indigenous communities on board i fully agree 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.460 and i think this is a fantastic opportunity you 00:29:11.460 --> 00:29:16.920 know if if you if you just take colombia and 00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:21.380 argentina and you overlap the map of indigenous 00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:26.579 -owned lands and the map of areas with good wind 00:29:26.579 --> 00:29:30.440 and solar potential, and you add a feasibility 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:34.799 factor, let's say of 40%, you end up with a total 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:39.740 addressable market of $25 billion. And this is 00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:45.099 just Colombia and Argentina in the region. This 00:29:45.099 --> 00:29:48.259 presents us with a fantastic opportunity, economic 00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:52.380 opportunity, for the communities that live in 00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:56.059 those lands. Now, at the same time, there is 00:29:56.059 --> 00:30:00.759 a risk. We can try to do what we have been doing 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:05.539 for decades with the extractive industry, where 00:30:05.539 --> 00:30:10.799 some handouts are promised to communities. you 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:13.500 can see that their economic situation hasn't 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:18.299 changed, hasn't improved. Even if all this wealth 00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:21.640 has come out of their lands, it hasn't gone back 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:25.200 to their communities. So we can actually take 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.559 that path again, and that will lead to more conflict 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:32.900 and a missed opportunity. Or we can take the 00:30:32.900 --> 00:30:36.279 equity partnership model, share the wealth with 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:40.140 communities. at the source and this will unlock 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:44.240 the energy transition in the region. And it is 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:47.180 as simple as that. It is a fantastic opportunity. 00:30:47.420 --> 00:30:51.299 So we need to actually act very fast so that 00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:53.740 companies and communities will understand that 00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:55.839 there is a model out there that we can use and 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.579 adapt here in the region. And we have to work 00:30:58.579 --> 00:31:01.119 with financial institutions to show them that 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.339 they have a role to play so that communities 00:31:04.339 --> 00:31:08.509 can actually participate. in in these projects 00:31:08.509 --> 00:31:13.430 and so what in in relation to your question um 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:17.509 about the role of the uk we know that access 00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:20.809 to capital will be a big issue so we are putting 00:31:20.809 --> 00:31:23.390 together a fund it's called the community equity 00:31:23.390 --> 00:31:30.150 opportunity fund and it is meant to um help communities 00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:32.970 buy into these projects i'll tell you a little 00:31:32.970 --> 00:31:34.809 bit how it works but the interesting thing is 00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:38.309 that throughout this year it has been incubated 00:31:38.309 --> 00:31:41.190 by the global innovation lab for climate finance 00:31:41.190 --> 00:31:44.970 which is heavily funded by the uk government 00:31:44.970 --> 00:31:49.309 as well right i just came back from brazil where 00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:52.990 we got the endorsement from all the members of 00:31:52.990 --> 00:31:57.990 this lab which include dfis impact investors 00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:01.269 and other organizations well congratulations 00:32:01.269 --> 00:32:05.440 thank you And it's nice from North America to 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:09.440 hear that social impact investing, sustainable 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.740 investment community is still alive and well 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:17.819 in some parts of the world. It is. It is. And 00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:23.519 I am excited about it. And so if we manage to 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:27.660 line up the right investors and development finance 00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:31.589 institutions. What we will be doing is first 00:32:31.589 --> 00:32:35.150 providing some early stage development loans 00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:38.849 so that communities can participate as co -developers 00:32:38.849 --> 00:32:42.009 in projects. Then we will be doing some equity 00:32:42.009 --> 00:32:44.450 investments for construction of these projects, 00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:48.029 but essentially to hold an equity position for 00:32:48.029 --> 00:32:51.170 the communities to be able to buy us out. So 00:32:51.170 --> 00:32:54.210 we play a role in building what is called now 00:32:54.210 --> 00:32:57.279 an impact enhancing exit. So we plan for our 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:00.460 exit in favor of the communities and we help 00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:03.059 the communities get the equity loan to buy us 00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:08.299 out. So when I was in California and we had our 00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:12.259 chat a couple of weeks ago, I was speaking to 00:33:12.259 --> 00:33:15.099 some of these impact investors that are showing 00:33:15.099 --> 00:33:19.359 some interest in trying this model. So it's building 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.940 up nicely. Let's hope that next year we can deploy 00:33:22.940 --> 00:33:27.180 our first investments. I'm curious, Juan, you've 00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:31.140 talked about copying the Canadian model and what 00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:34.460 you've learned from the Canadian model of doing 00:33:34.460 --> 00:33:36.619 deals with Indigenous people. Are there any lessons 00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:39.960 that you think Canadians could learn from the 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:48.920 way you're doing things in Latin America? I don't 00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:52.140 know. I think I am so biased. towards Canada 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:55.240 and in favor of Canada that I kind of think that 00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:57.819 there is very little that you can learn from 00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:02.539 us. But if there was only one thing I think I 00:34:02.539 --> 00:34:06.740 can mention is that I think that Canada has made 00:34:06.740 --> 00:34:11.199 an incredible amount of progress in allowing 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.920 the communities to buy into projects once those 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:21.139 projects have been developed. built and almost 00:34:21.139 --> 00:34:25.960 in operation. But there are less examples of 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.679 projects that are developed fully from scratch. 00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:35.760 And in fact, there are quite a few First Nations 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.900 that have started their own projects themselves, 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:44.280 like MMBC in Quebec or Henvy Inlet in Ontario, 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:48.429 for example. But those are exceptions. In general, 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:52.150 you can see a project that is led by a well -established 00:34:52.150 --> 00:34:56.269 energy company and then an opportunity for communities 00:34:56.269 --> 00:34:59.409 to raise the capital and buy into that project 00:34:59.409 --> 00:35:03.789 is built into the agreements for construction. 00:35:04.269 --> 00:35:08.510 So I think that the more we can see that effort 00:35:08.510 --> 00:35:13.889 of engaging from scratch, even if it takes more 00:35:13.889 --> 00:35:18.449 time. actually, it leads to much better outcomes 00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:22.949 for everybody. Yeah, that's a fair comment. Some 00:35:22.949 --> 00:35:24.849 of those projects are coming, and we've talked 00:35:24.849 --> 00:35:28.250 to, you know, about CEDAR LNG, which is Haisla 00:35:28.250 --> 00:35:32.070 Nation in BC, Indigenous -led. There are some 00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:34.889 other projects that are Indigenous -led that 00:35:34.889 --> 00:35:38.809 are coming down the pipe. And so that's an evolution. 00:35:40.090 --> 00:35:43.610 And so I hope you will see more and more of those 00:35:43.610 --> 00:35:48.099 types of... Indigenous -led projects. And this 00:35:48.099 --> 00:35:50.480 is just a perception, Juan, as you've traveled 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.980 throughout the Americas, as we call the land 00:35:53.980 --> 00:36:00.380 we all live in. But I have the sense that the 00:36:00.380 --> 00:36:04.840 Indigenous peoples are probably better represented 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:09.000 in government at provincial and federal level 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:14.190 than necessarily in Canada. Is that a correct 00:36:14.190 --> 00:36:21.949 perception? I don't think so. I think indigenous 00:36:21.949 --> 00:36:26.110 people continue to be underrepresented. And this 00:36:26.110 --> 00:36:33.050 has complex reasons for it to be like this. I 00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:37.250 think it is unfair, but it is how it is today. 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:41.699 So, no, I think we have a long way to go for 00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:45.760 indigenous peoples to be well represented at 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:48.539 the government level, whether it is provincial 00:36:48.539 --> 00:36:51.840 or federal. Not that there aren't improvements. 00:36:52.059 --> 00:36:54.940 And if you look at it from a historic perspective, 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:58.840 yes, there are some countries that can be proud 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.079 of what they can show. But it's not, I would 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.500 say, it's not a role in Latin America. Okay, 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.440 well, it certainly sounds like... Ronald Reagan 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:10.719 would be very happy listening to this discussion 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:12.920 because it's not starting with government is 00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.860 the solution. It's how do we make things happen 00:37:15.860 --> 00:37:18.519 with the communities on the ground, with the 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.599 people who are in control and thinking how they 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.280 can be self -reliant and develop their communities 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.380 and then bring in the relevant partners. So it 00:37:29.380 --> 00:37:33.300 has really been enjoyable speaking with you. 00:37:33.710 --> 00:37:36.230 today, Juan. Is there a particular point that 00:37:36.230 --> 00:37:38.110 you'd like to raise or, Rob, that you wanted 00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:41.610 to address? I think it's been pretty comprehensive 00:37:41.610 --> 00:37:45.150 and a nice different perspective. I do think 00:37:45.150 --> 00:37:48.929 that there's one piece that I believe is important, 00:37:49.090 --> 00:37:53.369 which is doing this is not just the right thing 00:37:53.369 --> 00:37:56.050 to do, but this is actually very good business. 00:37:56.590 --> 00:37:59.590 What usually happens with investors who look 00:37:59.590 --> 00:38:01.210 at these projects and they're thinking about 00:38:01.210 --> 00:38:05.119 the risk return profile. They are used to doing 00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:08.739 projects in the traditional way. So when they 00:38:08.739 --> 00:38:13.019 look at the risk of social opposition, they actually 00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:15.920 don't see the risk. The risk is quite silent 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.780 up until a project begins construction. And so 00:38:19.780 --> 00:38:25.199 I also believe that when communities are included 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:27.880 in a project, they are afraid of, you know, this 00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.849 is going to create some governance issues. who 00:38:30.849 --> 00:38:33.809 makes decisions, who's responsible for the project. 00:38:34.369 --> 00:38:38.090 But when these partnerships are structured well, 00:38:38.309 --> 00:38:41.469 and Canada has 30 years of track record doing 00:38:41.469 --> 00:38:44.730 this, actually having the community involved 00:38:44.730 --> 00:38:48.269 from scratch and then as an equity partner is 00:38:48.269 --> 00:38:54.289 the best sign that your project is de -risked. 00:38:54.329 --> 00:38:58.860 And so it's a good sign. moving forwards, you 00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:02.019 know that it's going to go well. It's the community 00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:06.320 asking you to invest. So I think that I would 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:10.639 say that I would ask investors when presented 00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:14.340 with equity partnerships to actually look at 00:39:14.340 --> 00:39:17.260 it in a different way. It's like, how is this 00:39:17.260 --> 00:39:20.460 actually, how has this partnership been struck, 00:39:20.539 --> 00:39:24.440 been built? And then if it has been built well, 00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:29.710 how is this going to result in a de -risked project 00:39:29.710 --> 00:39:34.909 for us. Yeah. Great point, Juan. And well done 00:39:34.909 --> 00:39:39.730 to you as a non -Indigenous person and someone 00:39:39.730 --> 00:39:42.110 who spotted a trend in another part of the world 00:39:42.110 --> 00:39:46.210 and trying to make it and apply it to your part 00:39:46.210 --> 00:39:49.230 of the world. Love to see it. And we'll look 00:39:49.230 --> 00:39:53.469 forward to hearing how this all evolves. So thanks 00:39:53.469 --> 00:39:56.150 for being with us. Yes. Thank you, Rob. Thank 00:39:56.150 --> 00:40:00.710 you. And I think it just reinforces, you know, 00:40:00.730 --> 00:40:05.309 we chose to be in London, in the city, because 00:40:05.309 --> 00:40:09.949 the capital markets here and the money that's 00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:12.650 deployed from here around the globe, and you've 00:40:12.650 --> 00:40:16.030 reinforced that with the contribution, with the 00:40:16.030 --> 00:40:19.550 impact investing funds and with the UK that, 00:40:19.610 --> 00:40:22.050 you know, the Square Mile remains a place that 00:40:22.050 --> 00:40:24.510 it has this convening power bringing together. 00:40:25.050 --> 00:40:27.409 So we look forward to seeing you at our summit 00:40:27.409 --> 00:40:32.429 on April 8th this year. And I'm sure we'll continue 00:40:32.429 --> 00:40:35.329 to have more and more people join us from around 00:40:35.329 --> 00:40:37.789 the world. So thank you very much for your time, 00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:40.989 Juan. Thank you so much for having me on the 00:40:40.989 --> 00:40:43.809 podcast. And I definitely look forward to joining 00:40:43.809 --> 00:40:49.150 you in April. Thank you to Juan Dumas for sharing 00:40:49.150 --> 00:40:52.389 his insights with us. And thank you for viewing 00:40:52.389 --> 00:40:55.449 and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming 00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:58.469 2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April. 00:40:58.929 --> 00:41:01.570 Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review 00:41:01.570 --> 00:41:04.429 on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for 00:41:04.429 --> 00:41:06.590 listening to Drumbeats. Until next time.