Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacca, and I'm joined today by my
co -host Robert Brandt. Today marks a very significant
milestone for Drumbeats as we welcome our first
guest from Latin America. We're joined by Juan
Dumas, co -founder and partner at Melikina. a
pioneering firm bringing equity partnership models
to renewable energy projects across Latin America.
Juan's journey began as a mediator, resolving
disputes between development finance institutions,
energy companies, and Indigenous communities.
Conflicts, where he discovered something remarkable.
Communities weren't opposing projects primarily
because of environmental impacts. but because
they were being excluded from economic opportunities
on their own lands. That insight led Juan and
his partner, Michelle Haag, to create an entirely
new approach, drawing directly from Canada's
30 -year track record of Indigenous equity partnerships.
In our conversation, you'll discover why projects
developed with communities from the ground up
dramatically reduce risk, learn about innovative
blended finance structures enabling community
ownership, and understand how the Canadian experience
is being adapted for global application. This
is exactly the kind of strategic intelligence
that demonstrates why Indigenous partnerships
deliver superior investment outcomes. So let's
move into the Southern Hemisphere for this fascinating
conversation. Good afternoon. We're very pleased
today to have Juan Dumas, co -founder and partner
at Melikina. South America, and today I understand,
Juan, you're in Ecuador, your home. Welcome to
the podcast. Thank you. Juan, nice to see you
again. Looking forward to our conversation. Hi,
Rob. Thank you so much. Me too. So, Juan, when
we last spoke to you, I think you were in California,
if I recall correctly, and you've had many travels
since then. So why don't you tell our listeners
and our viewers a little bit about yourself?
Because your name has come up in many circles
and you're our first guest from South America.
So we're very pleased to have you here. Thank
you so much for inviting me. I have to say I
am a very faithful follower of this podcast.
So when you reached out and invited me to...
to join you i was absolutely honored so thank
you so much for that um so i am originally from
argentina but home today is ecuador i'm in quito
today i'm a proud father of two and i started
my career as a mediator and so the truth is that
i studied law and i didn't like it at all and
so It was a difficult few years studying law.
And then towards the end, as I was getting my
degree, I took some mediation classes. And I
realized that I had found something that I was
really passionate about. And before dying in
a big law firm, I would try my luck with mediation.
And so my first formal job was with a very small
NGO. uh in argentina i was only starting back
then back then doing some mediation in public
disputes and i was hired as an admin person and
my goal was to learn as much as i could a few
months in the job i was given an opportunity
to train myself as a mediator and start doing
some cases with the lead mediators there who
were fantastic what years are we talking about
Oh, this is 1999. Yeah, I was 23 years old back
then. It was a great opportunity. And I will
always be grateful to the person who was leading
that organization because giving me an opportunity
to join the team, I had very little knowledge
about mediation, but it changed my life, really.
Well, I'm not going to hold it against you that
you didn't want to die in a big law firm like
I may be destined to. But how did it change your
life? Well, I worked there for four years. I
learned a lot about mediation in public disputes,
social disputes and environmental disputes. And
that prepared me to then take the next step in
my career, which was being the executive director
of another. civil society organization based
in Quito. That's what took me here. It was a
three -year contract. And who would have said
that 20 years later, I would still be here in
Ecuador and I would have made my life here. And
this was a different organization in the sense
that it had a regional scope of work. So it would
work in Latin America, not just in Ecuador. That
experience with this organization for six years
between 2003 and 2009 allowed me to get exposure
to the region and to the realities of indigenous
peoples, which to me in Argentina was not as
familiar. I used to spend most of my summers
in Patagonia and there I was exposed to the Mapuche.
uh indigenous communities but i would say like
only like for a few months uh every year when
i was going there for a vacation but this opportunity
to work in ecuador which is a fantastic country
is it has an unbelievable natural diversity and
cultural diversity um this gave me the opportunity
to understand how indigenous peoples live what
their challenges are what difference it makes
to see the world how they see it. And yeah, I
realized how ignorant I was. And so this helped
me participate in disputes as mediators where
indigenous peoples would be very active participants.
What sort of disputes were you mediating that
would involve indigenous people? So at first
I was mediating disputes related to natural resources
management. So, for example, someone wanted to
create a protected area in lands that were owned
by indigenous peoples, and maybe they didn't
feel as that they had been properly consulted.
So I would be a mediator in a situation like
that. But then I migrated to a different type
of disputes, which is disputes related to investments
made by DFIs in Latin America. These development
finance institutions have an accountability mechanism,
usually, where communities that feel that they're
being impacted by one of their investments, they
can submit a complaint. And these mechanisms
have the obligation of responding to that complaint.
And there are different ways in which they can
do that. But one is through a dialogue process,
a mediation process. They would engage me and
ask me to travel to these countries where this
dispute was happening and try to work with the
communities and with the companies to see whether
there was an opportunity to find a solution through
a dialogue process. And so I started doing that
while I was still working at this NGO, but then
I started my own private practice. six years
after leading the NGO. And I was a mediator between
2009 and 2022. So a big chunk of my professional
life has been mediating for or around DFI -supported
projects. And then I guess carry the story forward
from 22. What happened? And I'm sure listeners
may be wondering why a South American mediator
is on a podcast about Canadian Indigenous investment
scene, but maybe you can develop the story a
bit more. Yeah, of course. So I started finding
myself in a recurrent situation. Many of these
disputes were about projects that I thought didn't
have. very significant environmental and social
impacts. For example, like small hydro run -of
-the -river projects in Central America, in Guatemala,
in Mexico, in Honduras, different places. But
the level of conflict around them was completely
disproportionate with the impact. So it was very
intense. And so you would see communities fiercely
opposing these projects, burning machinery from
the companies. The government sending the military
in. People were killed. So, yeah, tensions would
rise in ways that you wouldn't fully understand.
And so I started having conversations with the
leaders of these communities. And at first they
were off -the -record conversations. And I was
asking them, if this project was yours, would
you build it? And interestingly, the answer was
invariably yes. So to me, it became very clear
that the problem was not that they were that
concerned about the impacts. They were more concerned
about being left out of an economic opportunity
happening in their lands. And this was happening
over and over again in all of the countries that
I was working in in Latin America. And so that
was the spark that led us to me and my partner.
I'll tell you a little bit about her now. to
start Milikina because we realized that we could
do things differently. If you start developing
a project from scratch with a community and you
find a way in which the community can become
an equity partner, then you have a better project.
And we're talking about indigenous communities.
Yeah, mostly indigenous communities. It doesn't
have to be just indigenous communities, but I
would say in most of these cases, yes. And the
communities that we're working with today, they
are primarily indigenous communities. We became
partners with Michelle Haig. Michelle came from
the private equity world, investing in renewable
energy. The fund she was working for had invested
in a project in Mexico and was facing social
opposition. I was impressed by the fact that
she and her colleagues had flown from New York
to Mexico to try to understand what was going
on and try to improve the project where possible.
when i came up with this idea of hey can we try
to do something different and start a company
uh and i brought this idea to her she said i'm
happy to to try this with you and so we've been
doing this uh together ever since and i have
to say i'll tell you more in a few minutes but
i have to say this has been the most rewarding
uh experience of of my life so how did canada
appear on your horizons of places to look. And
I think it's timely we're having this discussion
when COPPA is taking place in Brazil as we speak.
And there's been some demonstrations as well,
talking exactly what you're saying about people
being excluded from the process, that decisions
are being made without them. So before we started
our company, we went to some business leaders
in the renewable energy field and asked them
whether they would consider including communities
as partners, as equity partners. And the reaction
was not very positive. They responded that it
would be a mess from a governance perspective,
from a financial perspective. And at first, I
thought that maybe there was some truth in that.
But then I started researching what was going
on in the world. And this was in 2015 or 2016.
I came across some projects in Canada where communities
were already equity partners. And I realized
that those responses were actually excuses. They
just didn't want to do it. And I realized that
Canada had been doing this since the early 90s.
The first projects that I was able to track in
Canada started in 1991. And so, yeah, we realized
that people were going to be putting excuses
if we tried to invite them to do this. So we
decided to create our own company and do it ourselves,
right? And yes, Canada has been a true lighthouse
for us. I like to say that I have traveled to
the conference of the First Nations Major Projects
Coalition twice. And I like to say that it is
a trip to the future, right? do believe that
what canada has been able to achieve in terms
of equity partners partnerships is something
that we should all be looking up to in latin
america and of course canadians will be fast
to say that yes we still have our difficulties
and our challenges and that's true but sometimes
i think you you don't realize how far you've
come in canada and how much of an example you
are for the rest of the world And so we have
been learning very many things from Canada. I
can go on forever on this, but let me summarize
what we have learned. First is that these partnerships
can be done in market terms if there is a vision,
if there is courage from both the corporate and
the community side and the will to do it. several
projects that were done in the late 90s, early
2000s, that were done with any kind of support
from government institutions. They were just
done because the communities and the companies,
the leaders there, were ready to do these partnerships.
So they showed that this can be done and this
works. And then all the incentives came later.
So I feel that the projects that we are trying
to develop in Latin America, and we'll talk about
them soon. play that kind of a role. It's like
showing the market that this can actually be
done. Second is separating politics from economics.
You had Matt Jameson in your podcast, and he
is always very insistent on that. And I think
that the experience of the Six Nations of the
Grand River really shows that that is very true.
And then also that even if Access to capital
for communities can be a big challenge. Loan
guarantees can play a fantastic role in enabling
access to capital for communities. Juan, do you
see some of the financial tools available that
are available in Canada for Indigenous projects?
Are there similar tools in South America? So,
no, they aren't available yet. And we are actually
building a fund that draws a lot of inspiration
from the tools that Canada has implemented. And
so, yeah, we're drawing from... the experience
of the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation.
Shanna Martino has been very generous with us
and her team has spoken with us to learn from
them. But we have also seen like what Canada
has been doing with bridge loans, with some convertible
grants, with different government programs as
well. None of that is available in Latin America.
So we actually have to build all that. I'm sure
we'll talk about the role of development finance
institutions. They do have an important role
to play here because the credit rating of our
state institutions and their balance sheets as
well are not as strong as those of Canadian provinces.
The other thing we have learned is that regulatory
incentives can go a long way. They can really
help. to take this model to scale so if if you
establish like some additional points uh when
you're purchasing doing calls for power and you
establish that those projects that have equity
partnerships with communities score more points
you're creating a really interesting incentive
if you give those projects priorities to access
the grid um the same uh and so yeah i've seen
how different provinces in canada have been you
know testing these different approaches and i
think they've you know they've done amazingly
well um if you look at bc's call for power now
in 2024 2025 the same and so Again, here we are
a company and we're developing our own projects
in Latin America and advising companies. But
at the same time, we're working with governments
and bringing them all this information from Canada
and saying, hey, this is how they've done it.
And maybe some of them are not fully applicable
here, but I'm sure there are ways. Juan, what
are some of the responses that you're getting
from the different... governments at national
and state levels. I think it's really interesting
in terms of this discussion. You've only mentioned
government now, up to the whole point of this
conversation is about the community on the ground,
trying to make a difference. And I think it comes
also from your background of mediation, because
you're right there at the, as they used to say
here, at the coalface, right? And now we've kind
of come up and you've talked about, you know,
obviously the credit rating of the Canadian.
government and provinces are are different than
a number of the countries in latin america but
can you talk a little bit about your conversations
with government and what you've seen across the
region where you're able to comment about how
different governments perceive enabling empowering
the indigenous peoples to participate in projects
yeah i would say that first It is intentional,
I have to say, from our end, because I think
that for too long in Latin America, we have tried
to get the state to actually solve all problems.
And I think that's not the right way to go. And
so what we've tried to do is that this can be
done between a company and a community and show
the region that it can work that way. Of course,
if the government... can play a supporting role
and an enabling role for these types of partnerships,
then they will be adding a lot of value. And
we have seen in the province of Neuquén in Patagonia,
where we are developing a solar project with
Mapuche indigenous community, we have seen that
the provincial government has been very supportive
of our efforts. And interestingly, they haven't
tried to sort of uh invade our space but rather
they've been there to say hey whatever you need
we're happy to support you because you're trying
something that if it works it can be a model
for so many other communities in our in our province
that currently rely on whatever the state can
provide them and you know these are communities
that live in subsistence economy many of them
below the two dollar per day per capita And so
for the government to see a model like this work,
it is a source of hope and potential transformation
in the province. Now, I would say that not all
governments react in the same way, and many of
them would say... well, this has been tried in
Canada, but Canada is such a different country.
It's a developed economy. This doesn't work in
our region. And again, I believe that's an excuse.
Of course, we're not copy and pasting what's
being done in Canada, but we sure think that
many of the principles and the tools that have
been applied in Canada are 100 % applicable to
our region. That's so great to hear. One, we've
been saying for a while that one of the next
great exports from Canada will be the way we
structure deals with Indigenous people and corporate
Canada. And wouldn't necessarily want the rest
of the world to copy everything that Canada does
with respect to its Indigenous people, but in
this area. uh we are leading and uh you're one
example of uh outside canada looking at those
structures and those innovations uh and trying
to apply them um maybe tell us a bit more about
the one particular project you're talking about
and working on now is it one indigenous community
is it several is it equity how much equity how's
that kind of what sector yeah this is a an 18
megawatt solar project in northern paragonia
with one community the mapuche mijakeo community
and they own 9 500 hectares and we helped them
get the the title to though to the land before
we would start developing the project together
and we we approached them back in 2018 And we
shared with them that we believe they had the
right ingredients to do a renewable energy project,
but we would only do it with them if they were
interested in partnering with us as co -developers
and being equity partners as well. And it was
interesting. At first, their reaction was like,
this is too good to be true. And their previous
experiences with... energy companies or other
types of extractive companies had been very negative.
And so they had very good reasons not to trust
me or us, the team that visited them that day.
But they asked, let's say we say yes, how do
we become equity partners? Because if you see
out the window, if you look at the windows, All
those codes that you can see out there, that's
all we have. This is a $16 million project. You're
telling us this is a small project. How on earth
do we actually participate? Because we're sure
you're not going to hand out any equity. We started
there a conversation about how they could be
co -developers in the project with us. The truth
is that if they push for permits, permits come
faster. If they invite investors and banks to
come in, those investors and banks realize that
the risk of social opposition is probably much
lower than in other places. And also that the
potential positive social impact of a project
like this is much better than what other renewable
energy projects can show. And also the communities
can attract. companies as off -takers of the
energy that we will produce together. And so
they add plenty of value. We've already seen
this in this project. They add plenty of value
at the development stage. And so we started doing
this. Once they got the title to the land, we
went through all the permitting process together.
And now we are ready to go to financial close
next year. We're discussing with different investors,
with banks and with potential off -takers what
the structure of the deal will look like. But
hopefully we can get it built next year or start
building it next year. And for us, this is only
the beginning. This is a project that... is a
proof of concept in the region but it has already
sparked plenty of interest elsewhere in other
countries in the region we actually now have
with support from the uk government actually
we we have an office in medellín in colombia
and a team there and we are working with both
companies and communities that are interested
in trying this model as well and we're doing
We're in early stages of new developments in
different regions of Colombia. So we can already
see this moving forward. Can you, Juan, tell
us a little bit more about your involvement with
the UK government? As you know, we're based over
here in the city of London. And that may surprise
some of our audience, how they're enabling and
empowering you and your organization, the communities
you're working with. Yeah, they have a program
to accelerate the transition to the energy transition.
It's called UK Pact. And they open courts in
different countries in the world for organizations
who can show that they can actually advance the
energy transition. And so we applied with two
other organizations from Colombia. and we were
selected for their funding that will go for this
year and the following year 2026 and so the goal
is to raise awareness about this model show that
this works provide assistance to communities
and companies that actually want to do and try
this model and then also provide some training
to key people in these these groups and also
provide some And recommendations for regulatory
incentives about how this can be scaled up as
well. So, yeah, we have a very busy year, a couple
of months now, I would say 18 months ahead doing
all of this. Yes, quite clearly. And, you know,
the numbers are big around the globe. And again,
coming back to what's going on in Brazil at the
moment, I guess Latin America needs approximately
700 billion. annually for climate goals right
so that has to be achieved with community involvement
otherwise it's not going to happen who would
put their capital at risk if you don't have the
indigenous communities on board i fully agree
and i think this is a fantastic opportunity you
know if if you if you just take colombia and
argentina and you overlap the map of indigenous
-owned lands and the map of areas with good wind
and solar potential, and you add a feasibility
factor, let's say of 40%, you end up with a total
addressable market of $25 billion. And this is
just Colombia and Argentina in the region. This
presents us with a fantastic opportunity, economic
opportunity, for the communities that live in
those lands. Now, at the same time, there is
a risk. We can try to do what we have been doing
for decades with the extractive industry, where
some handouts are promised to communities. you
can see that their economic situation hasn't
changed, hasn't improved. Even if all this wealth
has come out of their lands, it hasn't gone back
to their communities. So we can actually take
that path again, and that will lead to more conflict
and a missed opportunity. Or we can take the
equity partnership model, share the wealth with
communities. at the source and this will unlock
the energy transition in the region. And it is
as simple as that. It is a fantastic opportunity.
So we need to actually act very fast so that
companies and communities will understand that
there is a model out there that we can use and
adapt here in the region. And we have to work
with financial institutions to show them that
they have a role to play so that communities
can actually participate. in in these projects
and so what in in relation to your question um
about the role of the uk we know that access
to capital will be a big issue so we are putting
together a fund it's called the community equity
opportunity fund and it is meant to um help communities
buy into these projects i'll tell you a little
bit how it works but the interesting thing is
that throughout this year it has been incubated
by the global innovation lab for climate finance
which is heavily funded by the uk government
as well right i just came back from brazil where
we got the endorsement from all the members of
this lab which include dfis impact investors
and other organizations well congratulations
thank you And it's nice from North America to
hear that social impact investing, sustainable
investment community is still alive and well
in some parts of the world. It is. It is. And
I am excited about it. And so if we manage to
line up the right investors and development finance
institutions. What we will be doing is first
providing some early stage development loans
so that communities can participate as co -developers
in projects. Then we will be doing some equity
investments for construction of these projects,
but essentially to hold an equity position for
the communities to be able to buy us out. So
we play a role in building what is called now
an impact enhancing exit. So we plan for our
exit in favor of the communities and we help
the communities get the equity loan to buy us
out. So when I was in California and we had our
chat a couple of weeks ago, I was speaking to
some of these impact investors that are showing
some interest in trying this model. So it's building
up nicely. Let's hope that next year we can deploy
our first investments. I'm curious, Juan, you've
talked about copying the Canadian model and what
you've learned from the Canadian model of doing
deals with Indigenous people. Are there any lessons
that you think Canadians could learn from the
way you're doing things in Latin America? I don't
know. I think I am so biased. towards Canada
and in favor of Canada that I kind of think that
there is very little that you can learn from
us. But if there was only one thing I think I
can mention is that I think that Canada has made
an incredible amount of progress in allowing
the communities to buy into projects once those
projects have been developed. built and almost
in operation. But there are less examples of
projects that are developed fully from scratch.
And in fact, there are quite a few First Nations
that have started their own projects themselves,
like MMBC in Quebec or Henvy Inlet in Ontario,
for example. But those are exceptions. In general,
you can see a project that is led by a well -established
energy company and then an opportunity for communities
to raise the capital and buy into that project
is built into the agreements for construction.
So I think that the more we can see that effort
of engaging from scratch, even if it takes more
time. actually, it leads to much better outcomes
for everybody. Yeah, that's a fair comment. Some
of those projects are coming, and we've talked
to, you know, about CEDAR LNG, which is Haisla
Nation in BC, Indigenous -led. There are some
other projects that are Indigenous -led that
are coming down the pipe. And so that's an evolution.
And so I hope you will see more and more of those
types of... Indigenous -led projects. And this
is just a perception, Juan, as you've traveled
throughout the Americas, as we call the land
we all live in. But I have the sense that the
Indigenous peoples are probably better represented
in government at provincial and federal level
than necessarily in Canada. Is that a correct
perception? I don't think so. I think indigenous
people continue to be underrepresented. And this
has complex reasons for it to be like this. I
think it is unfair, but it is how it is today.
So, no, I think we have a long way to go for
indigenous peoples to be well represented at
the government level, whether it is provincial
or federal. Not that there aren't improvements.
And if you look at it from a historic perspective,
yes, there are some countries that can be proud
of what they can show. But it's not, I would
say, it's not a role in Latin America. Okay,
well, it certainly sounds like... Ronald Reagan
would be very happy listening to this discussion
because it's not starting with government is
the solution. It's how do we make things happen
with the communities on the ground, with the
people who are in control and thinking how they
can be self -reliant and develop their communities
and then bring in the relevant partners. So it
has really been enjoyable speaking with you.
today, Juan. Is there a particular point that
you'd like to raise or, Rob, that you wanted
to address? I think it's been pretty comprehensive
and a nice different perspective. I do think
that there's one piece that I believe is important,
which is doing this is not just the right thing
to do, but this is actually very good business.
What usually happens with investors who look
at these projects and they're thinking about
the risk return profile. They are used to doing
projects in the traditional way. So when they
look at the risk of social opposition, they actually
don't see the risk. The risk is quite silent
up until a project begins construction. And so
I also believe that when communities are included
in a project, they are afraid of, you know, this
is going to create some governance issues. who
makes decisions, who's responsible for the project.
But when these partnerships are structured well,
and Canada has 30 years of track record doing
this, actually having the community involved
from scratch and then as an equity partner is
the best sign that your project is de -risked.
And so it's a good sign. moving forwards, you
know that it's going to go well. It's the community
asking you to invest. So I think that I would
say that I would ask investors when presented
with equity partnerships to actually look at
it in a different way. It's like, how is this
actually, how has this partnership been struck,
been built? And then if it has been built well,
how is this going to result in a de -risked project
for us. Yeah. Great point, Juan. And well done
to you as a non -Indigenous person and someone
who spotted a trend in another part of the world
and trying to make it and apply it to your part
of the world. Love to see it. And we'll look
forward to hearing how this all evolves. So thanks
for being with us. Yes. Thank you, Rob. Thank
you. And I think it just reinforces, you know,
we chose to be in London, in the city, because
the capital markets here and the money that's
deployed from here around the globe, and you've
reinforced that with the contribution, with the
impact investing funds and with the UK that,
you know, the Square Mile remains a place that
it has this convening power bringing together.
So we look forward to seeing you at our summit
on April 8th this year. And I'm sure we'll continue
to have more and more people join us from around
the world. So thank you very much for your time,
Juan. Thank you so much for having me on the
podcast. And I definitely look forward to joining
you in April. Thank you to Juan Dumas for sharing
his insights with us. And thank you for viewing
and listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming
2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April.
Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review
on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for
listening to Drumbeats. Until next time.