Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are joined today by Michael McPhee, Executive
Chairman and Founding Partner at Falkirk Consulting.
Michael previously served as President and CEO
of the Mining Association of British Columbia.
Chair of Ridley Terminals and Chair of the British
Columbia Institute of Technology. Michael's insights
are also captured in Weaving Two Worlds, a book
he co -authored with Christy Smith of the Comox
First Nation. In this Drumbeats episode, we discuss
how Indigenous partnership quality determines
project velocity in Canadian resource development.
We discussed why you cannot legislate trust.
but need to build it through authentic relationships.
And also how, when Indigenous communities and
the companies they're working with approach government
-aligned, it accelerates regulatory approvals
and removes political risk that damages project
economics. As an example, Falkirk recently contributed
to Osisko Development Corporation's $700 million
Caribou Gold project in BC. The environmental
assessment was accomplished in three years. instead
of a decade or more, demonstrating when Indigenous
communities are engaged right at the beginning,
great things happen. Welcome to Michael McPhee,
Executive Chairman and Founding Partner of Falkirk,
today to our podcast. Pleasure to have you with
us, Michael. It's a real pleasure to be here.
Thank you. Hi, Michael. Thanks for taking the
time to be with us. Great to see you. Nice to
see you, Rob. So, Michael, for our listeners,
over here in the UK and on the continent. Why
don't you tell us a little bit about yourself
and about Falkirk Environmental Consultants?
Sure. Well, thanks. Thanks, Mark. And I've had
this great privilege to work in the resource
space throughout Canada and internationally.
I started out looking for diamonds in the high
Arctic of Canada back in the day when when that
was just an idea and and i was mapping glaciers
and you know looking for where the diamonds might
be under the snow and it was really there that
i got introduced to this this relationship between
um indigenous communities the fragility of the
environment and the economic opportunity that
comes with resource development and that was
that was really early in my career but it had
a very significant imprint on me in terms of
my thinking going forward so as a young guy and
i I then progressed through the industry. I worked
in Northern Ontario for about six years, just
learning everything about mining and gold recovery
and all these sort of things. And then ultimately
moved into sort of the public policy side where
I took a position with the Canadian government
as head of policy for Western Canada on the mineral
side. Again, where I began to really understand
the interrelationship between Indigenous communities.
the landscape in which we're working in and how
public policy starts to influence all these things.
So I had a really strong grounding in that. And
then I took a period of time where I actually
went into the private sort of public company
side and I served as CEO of three different companies.
I've been part of building and having companies
taken over four times and created a lot of value
for shareholders through that. But again, through
that whole time of my career, It's always been
grounded in this idea of partnerships and sustainability
and economic development. In late 2019, a company
that I co -founded with a friend of mine was
taken over. In the mining and minerals business,
a lot of the time, junior companies build projects,
they discover them, they get them going, and
then a bigger guy comes. company comes in and
takes you over. And that's what happened to us.
And it was after that, we had a lot of success
in that project. And we did partnerships with
the Nisga 'a Nation, who are just this wonderful
community in Northwestern British Columbia. And
I think we really set the standard for positive
development in that part of Northwestern British
Columbia. And so we had a lot of success with
that. And when we got taken over, I was the executive
chair of the company. We did okay with it, which
was great. But what it taught me throughout my
career was, and this is where Falkirk comes in,
is that companies need support to be able to
traverse that journey from discovery to financing
to design to permitting and all that sort of
thing. And so we created Falkirk with a group
of sort of veterans in the business. And the
whole goal is around sort of unraveling some
of the complexity and trying to find a way to
get resource projects underway. Because I believe
fundamentally that the economic opportunity that's
represented by natural resources, particularly
in Canada, when done right in partnership with
community can be a wonderful win. And so that's
what I do now is I serve on boards, I work with
companies and I try and support that. sort of
positive development if that's possible. And
it really comes back to that grounding I had
sort of walking across the Northern tundra, looking
for diamonds and understanding that if anybody's
gonna be digging a hole in the ground, they better
be doing it with absolute alignment, support
and the consent of the indigenous. Indigenous
communities. And that's kind of the space I find
myself in. So I feel really, really lucky because
I've seen so much of this country and seen some
great examples, some not great examples as well.
But, you know, it's all part of that life journey
we're part of. Hence the picture of the glacier
behind you. That's right. You've got so much
experience, Mike, and you're generously shared.
Some of that, you co -authored Weaving Two Worlds.
Do you want to talk a little bit about that book?
Sure. So like a lot of us, we had a little bit
of time during COVID. And so myself, I started
writing this book as a bit of my own experience.
But then I have this wonderful. you know, just
gift of a relationship with a woman by the name
of Christy Smith, who's from the Comox First
Nation, a real leader in her own right. She's
been, you know, she's been awarded as a trailblazer
in the Indigenous community in Canada. And I
said, you know, there's a lot of people talking
about the relationship side, partnerships, you
know, engagement, reconciliation, all these kind
of thematics that are so important to us. And
I thought, well, here I'm a, you know, suburban
white. sort of middle -class guy growing up kind
of working in this space um maybe a way to maybe
a way to reflect the reality on the ground as
if we did it together so we that's the hence
the name weaving two worlds um christy's uh um
you know an indigenous person from the comarx
nation i'm i'm from uh north vancouver um we
work together to kind of compare our perspectives
and put forward a really a story and a set of
examples and some principles around how you build
positive economic reconciliation relationships
with indigenous communities. And we have a bit
of a saying in our work that you sort of move
at the speed of trust, right? And there's a lot
of reasons why trust has been lost over the centuries.
you know it was a real reflection that if if
you're going to put a shovel in the ground anywhere
in this country and many places in the world
if you haven't advanced the understanding of
how to build positive relationships you might
as well not even start right so it was really
an attempt to in a really positive way to try
to give people some signals and some ideas and
some thoughts and some lessons on okay here's
how it's here's how you could do it it isn't
It isn't prescriptive. It's sort of like, here's
the principles. And hopefully help the industry,
the people involved with it, be able to move
the conversation forward. So that's the idea
behind it. And it's done really, really well.
And I feel really gratified for that. It's a
book that should be required reading of anybody
who wants to do a deal in Canada these days.
It's not just the West Coast. resource -rich
West Coast where these issues come up. The principles
are applicable across the country. Do you want
to share a couple of the top tips from the book?
Thanks, Rob, for asking. There's a tendency in
business to want to move fast. I talk about some
of these stories. you'll get a ceo coming out
from eastern canada to want to work with an indigenous
community in northern British Columbia and he
or she will book you know okay I'm going to be
here between and my meeting set up between 11
and 12 on Tuesday and then they'll show up and
and the meeting doesn't start on time and and
you know and and I if I'm on the advisory side
or I'm with them in some form, whatever. I'll
hear, oh, complaints, look, they're late, you
know, all this, look, another example, right?
But the reality is that the Indigenous leader
on the other side, not only are they the person
responsible for economic development and looking
at that, but they're also the chief of their
community, which is they're the leader. And you
never know what might happen, right? Who knows,
somebody might've got into trouble or, you know.
something happened in a family or whatever it
is and so it's not a sign of disrespect in fact
the disrespect is being shown by the person who's
upset that somehow their meeting got pushed back
because they haven't taken the time to understand
that actually the responsibility of the people
that you're you're speaking with is a lot more
than just that conversation that you're having
in that room and so one of the Examples I always
give is somebody's coming in from somewhere else
and going into a community to meet with chief
and council or the elders or whatever it is,
book two or three days, like just give yourself
the room and allow yourself the time. And then
as you're coming in, maybe spend some time on
Google and learn about the history of that community.
Because, you know, we've had just a super quick
story, but, you know, in Northern Ontario, we
were working with a... a community up in the
northwestern part of the province along the English
River, where there was a UK company that built
a pulp mill there, and they deposited mercury
throughout the river system. And the cancer rates
in the community are very high, even to this
day. And it's a really hard story, right? Well,
I was up there looking at a mineral development
rare earth project. When we went into it, we
thought we were, you know, good guys, the great
idea, economic development out of this. And the
response we got when we walked in the room wasn't
particularly good. And I was quite critical of
myself because I actually hadn't done the research
before I went in. And they had a whole bunch
of guys who came in the 60s and the 70s that
said, trust us, we're going to build this great
project. And now they're still living at that
legacy 50 years later. So it's not that things
should stop, but it's if you. go into that conversation
without an understanding of the context of the
real life experience of the people on the ground,
you're not really doing a good job. And I feel
like we're a little lazy sometimes. We don't
really take the time to understand people's lived
experience. And unless you do that, you're not
showing respect when you walk in the room. So
those are the kind of things that we try and...
Work with people. And, you know, at the end of
the day, it's kind of a human to human thing.
It's not really academic Indigenous engagement.
It's like if you're going to do business or want
to work in somebody's community, you better know
who they are and what their history is. So I
don't know. I mean, it sounds fairly straightforward,
but it's amazing how many people don't do it.
I think part of the challenge is that is when
you and we've heard before, if you have a Japanese
group coming in or a Korean group coming in.
they have a deep appreciation they're coming
into a different culture. So they start from
ground zero and assume they know nothing. I think
with Canadians within Canada, they go across
the country and they think, well, nothing's changed.
I know this place. And they don't recognize that
there are different cultures. They're in a different
place. And I think the other thing is the Indigenous
people have a different sense of time. And it's
not necessarily linear as well. right? Well,
and one thing that Christy really helps me, part
of writing that book, I learned so much just
working with her and exploring these issues more
deeply. And, you know, one of the things that
she's really good at in working with leaders
and things is to recognize that, like, don't
be scared, right? Like, ask questions. Like,
if you don't know, then just ask. It's okay,
right? Like, but I know there's a... There's
a certain intimidation factor sometimes for many
people when they're entering this space. But
the reality is, at least in my experience, is
if you sit down with a positive intent and a
curiosity and you ask somebody to tell you their
story, they generally will. Nobody will take
offense to that. I mean, they might say they're
not ready right now or whatever it might be.
That's okay. But if you come in with a sincere
desire to learn. Most cultures will respond quite
positively to that. But we don't always give
ourselves the time. And I think it's really,
really important to slow down a bit sometimes.
So it is a very good handbook of how to engage
with Indigenous peoples. And I think it applies
anywhere. When I was reading through it, I thought
there were good lessons for anybody doing business
with any different culture to take the time and
think things through. What makes Falkirk's approach
different with Indigenous engagement? And why
does this really matter for project outcomes?
Because you have built something unique. Yeah,
thanks for the question, Mark. So we're about
65, 70 people headquartered in North Vancouver
on the west coast of Canada. And we have a team
across the country. We have this kind of idea
around project realization. We're really set
up to help proponents be successful. And so we
focus on a couple of key areas. Indigenous engagement
is critical in partnership development. We're
really strong in the regulatory and public policy
side. And then we have a real focus on water
stewardship, mostly. And we chose those areas
because they tend to be the things. that people
often care about the most right like water is
life you know you hear that right so we said
if we're going to be credible in this space we
need to we need to be really good in that area
so we have a really really strong team that focuses
on water protection and water quality and things
like that but then it's also this concept of
indigenous communities aren't just consulted
but they're actively engaged in the the development
the design the consideration the protection measures
all those things and so Christy, my co -author,
she leads that group and it all starts at that
spot. And it's pragmatic in the sense that, you
know, the reality is that from a legal perspective,
Indigenous communities, First Nations in Canada
have won almost every Supreme Court case for
the last 20 years that they've brought forward,
right? The legal landscape has fundamentally
changed along with... UNDRIP and those legislation
being brought in both in British Columbia, but
nationally as well. So your starting point is
if whether you're building an LNG project or
a pipeline or a mining project or a renewable
energy project, it all starts with good science
and environmental protection and stewardship
and all that kind of stuff. But that relationship
development side has to be, it isn't an add -on.
right it's it's implicit as part of the dna of
how you do a project and so that's what we really
try and focus on and support um and we've had
a lot of success with that we've been able to
move you know there's often a a conversation
out there i i see in the in the press all the
time that it takes 15 years to get a project
going and and i've encountered with that i'm
like not good projects that have actually done
it well. That isn't true. And I don't know why
the industry keeps saying that because they're
like, oh, it takes 15 to 20 years. And I'm like,
actually, no, there's been a bunch of projects
over the last five or six years. But look at
the key ingredients that have worked. They have
Indigenous partnerships. design a good project
in cooperation with people one of the things
the industry does a lot i find anyway is we'll
you know we'll go away and we'll design a project
and then we'll go out and try and convince everybody
that it's the best project you consult on the
design that you've come up with well you're kind
of on a back foot right when you start right
because people are like hold on you know if they
had been involved in the conversation you might
end it up in the same place or you might end
it up somewhere else but so it's kind of like
I almost feel like we need to be a little more
creative. I think we need to be a little smarter.
And the industry players that have figured that
out, we work with, have been really, really successful.
And it's kind of fun. It's quite gratifying if
you can actually see a project move forward.
That gives us a lot of professional satisfaction.
So that's kind of what we focus on. Give some
examples, Mike, of the ones who've done it well
and what sort of timeframes. What are we looking
at? Yeah. Well, one is there's a company called
the Cisco Development Corporation out of Montreal.
And they're a meaningful sized group. They're
part of the Cisco group. And they're developing
a $700 million project right now. It's under
construction today. They did all the financing
and everything a few months back. So, you know,
it's great to see the evolution of that. moved
through the process from beginning in 2021 to
2024 in approximately three years. And that was
a full environmental assessment under the new
Environmental Assessment Act in British Columbia
that was brought in 2018, 2019. It involved consensus
all the way through with Indigenous communities.
One of the things that they've done on the regulatory
side on the West Coast of Canada is there's these...
these points along the process where you have
to be able to show that you have consensus it
isn't you know in the old days what they would
do is there'd be a big report it would go in
for review and that would be either a yes or
no they've now created a process where it's like
there's these check -ins all the way along and
I think it's good because you know you get a
temperature along the way it isn't like you're
left at the end and you're just wondering are
they going to get the approval by the time you
get to the last chapter you should know what
the outcome is there shouldn't be any surprises
to anybody and so it puts a lot of onus on the
proponent to do a lot more engagement up front
and make sure that you're aligned. I think the
policy objective that the province of BC had,
I think it's working actually. It's quite positive.
At Cisco, we were the lead for all the permitting
and EA on it. They got all their final operating
permits and construction permits a little earlier
this year and now they're in full construction.
And basically in five years, they went from,
you know, early design through to shovels in
the ground and actually building from beginning
to end. So I think that's a pretty good win.
And it's a partnership with the La Tacodene and
the Williams Lake India Band. And there's another
nation called Hassell that's part of it as well.
And it hasn't been easy. Like, I don't want to
ever pretend that it was a straight line. And
it wasn't, right? But it's... the beginning to
the end has gone really, really well. So that's
just one example. And there's a bunch of other
ones actually in the province as well and elsewhere
in Canada. Yeah. And did the Indigenous communities,
First Nations, take equity in that project? Is
that how that partnership is structured? Yeah,
that's super interesting. The relationship there
on this particular project has been more, impact
benefit financial considerations. I don't believe
at this particular moment in time, there's a
direct equity ownership piece in a Cisco, but
there is equity ownership in pieces of the project,
like the power line, for example, that is a hundred
million dollar project, which is connecting from
the town of Quesnel through to the mine site.
And that's an active development area. rather
than the mine itself and the the project there's
there's parts of the project there's real estate
there's the transmission line there's a bunch
of commitments on contracting opportunities and
things like that so that has been the the track
that's been taken there now other parts of the
province there's been significant equity participation
either or across the country and you gentlemen
i'm sure aware of that where equity participation
is is happening and i I think it's absolutely
wonderful. Now, I do get a little nervous sometimes
because mining stocks can go up and down and
everything, but it's shared risk, shared reward.
So I think it can be a really, really positive
part of the package. I don't think it should
be all the package. I think it's part of the
package. You're now a part owner in the project.
And so on a Cisco, I may be wrong, but I don't
believe there's equity, but there is equity.
pieces of the project for sure, which are really
meaningful. And the wonderful thing about like
a power line or something is that will long outlive
the mine itself, right? Because mines are finite,
right? They're usually 15 to 20 years, whatever
they might be. A power line, a major piece of
infrastructure connected now runs right up through
the center of the province and will support all
others. And now you have this. long -term recurring
stable revenue source, relatively low risk. Well,
really almost zero risk because the power is
bought by VC Hydro. And to me, that's like the
best outcome you could find, right? Because now
you have this dependable multi -generational
revenue source and it's kind of a stimulus for
a whole bunch of other stuff to potentially happen
in the future, not just being tied to one project
because they come and go, right? And so that's
the kind of thing they focused on. Who is driving
that strategic focus you just talked about? Because
that's building infrastructure. As you said,
that lasts after the project. Is that the corporate
partner coming in and saying, as part of the
benefits, here's something of real value? Or
is that now the Indigenous leadership saying,
yeah, we get the idea of having a share in the
project, but all this other stuff we want to
contribute and build? develop our own capability
capacity to contribute you know i i think it
it's actually consistent with the ethic that
was kind of brought to the project in the first
place and it part of it is what's doable you
know like a community is not going to go from
most communities and i i don't have to be careful
i don't want to have generalizations but any
of us like if you were to i don't know to try
to get into another aspect of the business like
mine contracting or something like it's a It's
really competitive. It's not easy, right? So
in some respects, it's about picking the opportunities
that have the most possibility of success with
manageable risk, right? And credit to the province
of British Columbia and to Canada and to BC Hydro
who have been really supportive of this. The
nation decided that this was something that they
wanted to be a part of. And the company, to their
credit, is really open to it. And they see the
implicit benefit on both sides. They need a power
line. The community is looking for long -term
positive economic development. And you've got
a supportive set of partners around you. So,
you know, sometimes it's a bit of a Sudoku puzzle,
right? You know, you get all these things together
and it makes it work. It doesn't always work.
But in this case, that was a really great opportunity.
So I think it was just seen by everybody involved
as one of the examples of something that could
be a long -term. positive economic opportunity
in their territories. And the Prime Minister
of Canada is over in Asia at the moment and talking
about Canada being an energy superpower. And
of course, the subject also comes up of critical
minerals. What are you seeing on critical minerals?
People, they want to be part of the processing.
They want to control that because this is a whole
new ballgame because Canada is back open for
business. Yeah, Mark, it's a really good question.
And it's interesting because we have to be a
little careful about pan -Canadian generalizations
because different communities have different
perspectives on these things. I think. Well,
you're from Vancouver, so I'm not sure how much
of a fan you are of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
The Blue Jays are a Canadian team. I'm a Blue
Jays fan now. But, you know, look, I think this
is an extraordinary opportunity. I mean, I think
part of it is the alignment of all the different
interests that are aligned. Progressive companies
and their practices, I think, are happening.
And I don't, again, not every company has figured
it out, right? And there are some actors out
there that still kind of want to run roughshod
over communities. And so we can't pretend everything's
perfect yet by any stretch. And even the majors
are still learning, right? And they make mistakes
and everything. I do think that the basic intent
underneath that is positive. And so the... the
opportunity that is presented by critical minerals
development is extraordinary. The other part
of this that is coming in is the access to capital.
So whether it's loan guarantees, whether it's
the Canada Infrastructure Bank, Canadian Growth
Fund, whether it's the First Nations Bank of
Canada, whether it's the various... There's a
group of Raven Capital partners that operate
in this. There's so much, which I think is critical
because in the past, I think there's been such
a power differential between big corporations
and Indigenous communities who want to participate
but don't have access to capital to do so. And
so you end up in this sort of almost a paternalistic
relationship that is not, I don't think it's...
it's not set up for success necessarily. And
it feeds into the old systems of colonialism
and everything. And so now you're beginning to
get a more leveling of the playing field. And
I think we still got a lot of work to do. And
I worry a little bit that we're, you know, the
old adage in Canada that we're out over our skis
sometimes, you know, like because everybody's
chasing the billions, but there's a lot of hard
work to do. I mean, even in our own work about,
I'll give you just a really quick example of
like. where things can break down sometimes,
where you have an enlightened CEO, for example,
and then you have a sustainability part and a
department of Indigenous community, Indigenous
advisors, and you have groups like Falkirk supporting
and everything. And then you can go out and do
all this great work and build the goodwill and
everything. And then stuff flows into the finance
department of the corporation where you have
a CFO or something that... hasn't really bought
into this whole thing they're focusing on numbers
and they're like oh you guys are spending too
much on those suppliers or whatever it is and
then things break down and so that because this
cultural change this awareness has it has not
i mean it's for those of us who work in the space
know that it's moving but my only caution is
that i i think I think we need to, everybody's
running right now. And we also do have to do
a bit of work to just make sure the foundational
elements are completely there. And I think they
are because the companies that figure it out
are having extraordinary success. They're creating
so much value. And there's so many examples in
the different spaces that we're in. And I really
believe there's some templates for companies
if they're coming into Canada to follow. that
have been very, very successful. And in fact,
I would argue, given global risk right now in
different just political environments, whether
it's South Central America or in other parts
of the world, the ability to manage, if you do
it right in Canada, I think in many respects
far exceeds what we see in other parts of the
world where... You don't necessarily have the
rule of law and your tenure is under threat sometimes.
And we've seen so many examples of that over
the last little while. So I think there's some
great opportunities in this space, Mark. Sounds
like you're optimistic, Mike. There are some
challenges, but we've come a long way. You've
seen a lot of changes over your career from the
law and legislation and case law. and the approach
from business too. Do you think they see the
value now of the Indigenous partnerships, meaningful
partnerships? I really do, Robin. And I mean,
the reality is that the people in these First
Nations and Indigenous communities are the ones
who... They know the landscape. They know the
area that you're working in. They have an intrinsic
knowledge that is extraordinary. And I have had
just absolutely wonderful experiences. And if
you're willing to sort of take the time, like
we talked about at the beginning, and learn somebody's
story and build a partnership, like I'll give
you an example just super quick, like in terms
of regulatory. efficiency and permitting timelines
and stuff. If you've got an indigenous community
as a partner with you, I will guarantee you everything
will move quicker. And it removes so much of
the political risk because in many respects,
governments are kind of following industry and
First Nations. They're not leading. If the nation
and the company design a project together and
come to government, It's extraordinary how the
waters part and you can move your project forward.
And I think it isn't without commitment. It isn't
without hard work, but the opportunity is definitely
there. So I think we've had a great conversation.
I think we could continue on and on. Just one
thing. What would the young Michael McPhee say
who was sitting in that meeting with the CEO
from Toronto? After just telling that community,
oh, everything's great. We've got the top engineers.
What would be the advice now? Right? I felt sorry
for that young man. Yeah, that was a learning
moment, I have to say. And I mean, we all have
those, right? There's moments in time where you're
faced with someone and you are... You can look
in their eyes and you can understand that the
story that they're telling is very real. I think,
honestly, Mark, I guess that old adage, slow
down to speed up. Slow down and take the time
to understand. We're all guilty of that a bit
in business. We're all moving so quick right
now. So many of our relationships are... you
know they kind of they don't always get below
the surface they're kind of like you're just
moving on and i think to be effective in this
space of building partnerships is very much it's
like a relationship and it's it's it's that whole
you like you can't legislate trust right like
and and there's been so much we just have to
understand that the trust deficit isn't your
fault it's not your fault if you're sitting across
from someone and they're talking about something
that happened in the past it's not your fault
so don't don't take that on but But in order
to move forward, you have to spend some time
to at least acknowledge that and spend some time
to understand somebody's story. And I think that's
in all of human relationships almost, because
then once you do that, then you can move forward.
And I think that's part of the issue is I don't
think we've, I think there's so much noise in
the political space and there's, you know, some
outdated perspectives on who First Nations people
are. I mean, one of the things we talk about
is. When you see an Indigenous person, do you
see a future CEO or are you seeing something
else? And why is that? What bias are you carrying
around in your mind that's having you approach
somebody with a certain perspective, right? And
is it really based on that person or is it based
on something else? And so I just feel like for
me as a young guy, you know, I wish, but, you
know, I'm a young guy, so I don't really know
at that point in time. I know, I think I know
now. And I'm still learning every day. So I just
think, yeah, take the time to learn other people's
story. And I think that's it. And then approach
that relationship with positive intent. And there's
no shortage of things that you might be able
to do. Well, thank you, Michael McPhee. I think
Falkirk Consulting, that's a great way to wrap
it up. We've had a wonderful conversation. And
I think there are many Indigenous. CEO leaders
out there coming to foreign, growing up in the
organizations. That's what's changing everything
now as Rob Brandt is a perfect example of that,
Rob. Yeah, Mike, thanks for taking the time with
us today. You're a great ally and a great advocate.
And I want to thank you for all the work you
do in this space and for the generous way you
share your insights. Thanks, Rob. It's a pleasure
and a privilege to be part of the conversation.
So thank you. Thank you to Michael McPhee for
sharing his insights with us. And thank you for
viewing and listening. Mark your calendars for
the upcoming 2026 Summit taking place on the
8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe, and
leave a review on your favorite podcast channel.
Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. Until next
time.