WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:13.130 --> 00:00:15.929 I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt 00:00:15.929 --> 00:00:19.429 and I are joined today by Michael McPhee, Executive 00:00:19.429 --> 00:00:22.210 Chairman and Founding Partner at Falkirk Consulting. 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:25.370 Michael previously served as President and CEO 00:00:25.370 --> 00:00:27.370 of the Mining Association of British Columbia. 00:00:28.030 --> 00:00:30.589 Chair of Ridley Terminals and Chair of the British 00:00:30.589 --> 00:00:34.210 Columbia Institute of Technology. Michael's insights 00:00:34.210 --> 00:00:37.329 are also captured in Weaving Two Worlds, a book 00:00:37.329 --> 00:00:39.850 he co -authored with Christy Smith of the Comox 00:00:39.850 --> 00:00:44.070 First Nation. In this Drumbeats episode, we discuss 00:00:44.070 --> 00:00:47.149 how Indigenous partnership quality determines 00:00:47.149 --> 00:00:50.429 project velocity in Canadian resource development. 00:00:51.310 --> 00:00:54.270 We discussed why you cannot legislate trust. 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:57.520 but need to build it through authentic relationships. 00:00:57.939 --> 00:01:01.579 And also how, when Indigenous communities and 00:01:01.579 --> 00:01:04.519 the companies they're working with approach government 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:07.799 -aligned, it accelerates regulatory approvals 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.459 and removes political risk that damages project 00:01:10.459 --> 00:01:15.159 economics. As an example, Falkirk recently contributed 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:17.920 to Osisko Development Corporation's $700 million 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.719 Caribou Gold project in BC. The environmental 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:25.200 assessment was accomplished in three years. instead 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.359 of a decade or more, demonstrating when Indigenous 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:30.379 communities are engaged right at the beginning, 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:35.540 great things happen. Welcome to Michael McPhee, 00:01:35.659 --> 00:01:38.120 Executive Chairman and Founding Partner of Falkirk, 00:01:38.260 --> 00:01:41.079 today to our podcast. Pleasure to have you with 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:42.760 us, Michael. It's a real pleasure to be here. 00:01:42.819 --> 00:01:45.939 Thank you. Hi, Michael. Thanks for taking the 00:01:45.939 --> 00:01:49.500 time to be with us. Great to see you. Nice to 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:52.420 see you, Rob. So, Michael, for our listeners, 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:55.859 over here in the UK and on the continent. Why 00:01:55.859 --> 00:01:57.659 don't you tell us a little bit about yourself 00:01:57.659 --> 00:02:01.120 and about Falkirk Environmental Consultants? 00:02:01.299 --> 00:02:05.120 Sure. Well, thanks. Thanks, Mark. And I've had 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:10.300 this great privilege to work in the resource 00:02:10.300 --> 00:02:13.319 space throughout Canada and internationally. 00:02:13.539 --> 00:02:18.580 I started out looking for diamonds in the high 00:02:18.580 --> 00:02:23.250 Arctic of Canada back in the day when when that 00:02:23.250 --> 00:02:26.129 was just an idea and and i was mapping glaciers 00:02:26.129 --> 00:02:28.849 and you know looking for where the diamonds might 00:02:28.849 --> 00:02:31.710 be under the snow and it was really there that 00:02:31.710 --> 00:02:34.669 i got introduced to this this relationship between 00:02:34.669 --> 00:02:38.469 um indigenous communities the fragility of the 00:02:38.469 --> 00:02:41.830 environment and the economic opportunity that 00:02:41.830 --> 00:02:43.669 comes with resource development and that was 00:02:43.669 --> 00:02:45.430 that was really early in my career but it had 00:02:45.430 --> 00:02:48.710 a very significant imprint on me in terms of 00:02:48.710 --> 00:02:51.330 my thinking going forward so as a young guy and 00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:54.659 i I then progressed through the industry. I worked 00:02:54.659 --> 00:02:57.740 in Northern Ontario for about six years, just 00:02:57.740 --> 00:03:00.280 learning everything about mining and gold recovery 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.879 and all these sort of things. And then ultimately 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.759 moved into sort of the public policy side where 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.159 I took a position with the Canadian government 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:11.800 as head of policy for Western Canada on the mineral 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:15.460 side. Again, where I began to really understand 00:03:15.460 --> 00:03:18.060 the interrelationship between Indigenous communities. 00:03:20.090 --> 00:03:24.129 the landscape in which we're working in and how 00:03:24.129 --> 00:03:26.629 public policy starts to influence all these things. 00:03:26.710 --> 00:03:28.969 So I had a really strong grounding in that. And 00:03:28.969 --> 00:03:31.210 then I took a period of time where I actually 00:03:31.210 --> 00:03:33.789 went into the private sort of public company 00:03:33.789 --> 00:03:37.009 side and I served as CEO of three different companies. 00:03:37.069 --> 00:03:41.830 I've been part of building and having companies 00:03:41.830 --> 00:03:44.710 taken over four times and created a lot of value 00:03:44.710 --> 00:03:47.650 for shareholders through that. But again, through 00:03:47.650 --> 00:03:50.900 that whole time of my career, It's always been 00:03:50.900 --> 00:03:54.240 grounded in this idea of partnerships and sustainability 00:03:54.240 --> 00:04:02.800 and economic development. In late 2019, a company 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:06.699 that I co -founded with a friend of mine was 00:04:06.699 --> 00:04:10.680 taken over. In the mining and minerals business, 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.659 a lot of the time, junior companies build projects, 00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:16.699 they discover them, they get them going, and 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:19.959 then a bigger guy comes. company comes in and 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:21.860 takes you over. And that's what happened to us. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.019 And it was after that, we had a lot of success 00:04:24.019 --> 00:04:27.259 in that project. And we did partnerships with 00:04:27.259 --> 00:04:29.779 the Nisga 'a Nation, who are just this wonderful 00:04:29.779 --> 00:04:33.060 community in Northwestern British Columbia. And 00:04:33.060 --> 00:04:36.899 I think we really set the standard for positive 00:04:36.899 --> 00:04:39.660 development in that part of Northwestern British 00:04:39.660 --> 00:04:42.740 Columbia. And so we had a lot of success with 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:45.360 that. And when we got taken over, I was the executive 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:49.500 chair of the company. We did okay with it, which 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:54.660 was great. But what it taught me throughout my 00:04:54.660 --> 00:04:57.319 career was, and this is where Falkirk comes in, 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.519 is that companies need support to be able to 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:05.060 traverse that journey from discovery to financing 00:05:05.060 --> 00:05:08.500 to design to permitting and all that sort of 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:10.740 thing. And so we created Falkirk with a group 00:05:10.740 --> 00:05:13.079 of sort of veterans in the business. And the 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:17.389 whole goal is around sort of unraveling some 00:05:17.389 --> 00:05:19.550 of the complexity and trying to find a way to 00:05:19.550 --> 00:05:23.149 get resource projects underway. Because I believe 00:05:23.149 --> 00:05:28.009 fundamentally that the economic opportunity that's 00:05:28.009 --> 00:05:29.910 represented by natural resources, particularly 00:05:29.910 --> 00:05:33.290 in Canada, when done right in partnership with 00:05:33.290 --> 00:05:36.230 community can be a wonderful win. And so that's 00:05:36.230 --> 00:05:40.709 what I do now is I serve on boards, I work with 00:05:40.709 --> 00:05:45.420 companies and I try and support that. sort of 00:05:45.420 --> 00:05:49.100 positive development if that's possible. And 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:51.160 it really comes back to that grounding I had 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.180 sort of walking across the Northern tundra, looking 00:05:54.180 --> 00:05:57.139 for diamonds and understanding that if anybody's 00:05:57.139 --> 00:05:58.779 gonna be digging a hole in the ground, they better 00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:03.339 be doing it with absolute alignment, support 00:06:03.339 --> 00:06:06.459 and the consent of the indigenous. Indigenous 00:06:06.459 --> 00:06:09.459 communities. And that's kind of the space I find 00:06:09.459 --> 00:06:12.139 myself in. So I feel really, really lucky because 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:16.000 I've seen so much of this country and seen some 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.259 great examples, some not great examples as well. 00:06:18.339 --> 00:06:20.699 But, you know, it's all part of that life journey 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:24.420 we're part of. Hence the picture of the glacier 00:06:24.420 --> 00:06:28.579 behind you. That's right. You've got so much 00:06:28.579 --> 00:06:32.139 experience, Mike, and you're generously shared. 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:37.420 Some of that, you co -authored Weaving Two Worlds. 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.139 Do you want to talk a little bit about that book? 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.040 Sure. So like a lot of us, we had a little bit 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:50.560 of time during COVID. And so myself, I started 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.720 writing this book as a bit of my own experience. 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:58.370 But then I have this wonderful. you know, just 00:06:58.370 --> 00:07:00.730 gift of a relationship with a woman by the name 00:07:00.730 --> 00:07:02.689 of Christy Smith, who's from the Comox First 00:07:02.689 --> 00:07:05.689 Nation, a real leader in her own right. She's 00:07:05.689 --> 00:07:09.029 been, you know, she's been awarded as a trailblazer 00:07:09.029 --> 00:07:11.790 in the Indigenous community in Canada. And I 00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:13.670 said, you know, there's a lot of people talking 00:07:13.670 --> 00:07:16.189 about the relationship side, partnerships, you 00:07:16.189 --> 00:07:19.589 know, engagement, reconciliation, all these kind 00:07:19.589 --> 00:07:22.470 of thematics that are so important to us. And 00:07:22.470 --> 00:07:25.790 I thought, well, here I'm a, you know, suburban 00:07:25.790 --> 00:07:28.800 white. sort of middle -class guy growing up kind 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:34.199 of working in this space um maybe a way to maybe 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.639 a way to reflect the reality on the ground as 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:40.540 if we did it together so we that's the hence 00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:44.620 the name weaving two worlds um christy's uh um 00:07:44.620 --> 00:07:47.139 you know an indigenous person from the comarx 00:07:47.139 --> 00:07:50.620 nation i'm i'm from uh north vancouver um we 00:07:50.620 --> 00:07:53.139 work together to kind of compare our perspectives 00:07:53.139 --> 00:07:59.579 and put forward a really a story and a set of 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:02.180 examples and some principles around how you build 00:08:02.180 --> 00:08:05.019 positive economic reconciliation relationships 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:09.600 with indigenous communities. And we have a bit 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:14.800 of a saying in our work that you sort of move 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:18.819 at the speed of trust, right? And there's a lot 00:08:18.819 --> 00:08:21.980 of reasons why trust has been lost over the centuries. 00:08:24.649 --> 00:08:27.509 you know it was a real reflection that if if 00:08:27.509 --> 00:08:29.629 you're going to put a shovel in the ground anywhere 00:08:29.629 --> 00:08:32.809 in this country and many places in the world 00:08:32.809 --> 00:08:36.330 if you haven't advanced the understanding of 00:08:36.330 --> 00:08:39.029 how to build positive relationships you might 00:08:39.029 --> 00:08:41.509 as well not even start right so it was really 00:08:41.509 --> 00:08:45.269 an attempt to in a really positive way to try 00:08:45.269 --> 00:08:47.470 to give people some signals and some ideas and 00:08:47.470 --> 00:08:50.429 some thoughts and some lessons on okay here's 00:08:50.429 --> 00:08:52.789 how it's here's how you could do it it isn't 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.039 It isn't prescriptive. It's sort of like, here's 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:59.659 the principles. And hopefully help the industry, 00:08:59.779 --> 00:09:01.840 the people involved with it, be able to move 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:03.980 the conversation forward. So that's the idea 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:06.320 behind it. And it's done really, really well. 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:12.480 And I feel really gratified for that. It's a 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.220 book that should be required reading of anybody 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:19.799 who wants to do a deal in Canada these days. 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:23.710 It's not just the West Coast. resource -rich 00:09:23.710 --> 00:09:27.889 West Coast where these issues come up. The principles 00:09:27.889 --> 00:09:31.629 are applicable across the country. Do you want 00:09:31.629 --> 00:09:35.269 to share a couple of the top tips from the book? 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:40.789 Thanks, Rob, for asking. There's a tendency in 00:09:40.789 --> 00:09:45.370 business to want to move fast. I talk about some 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:48.639 of these stories. you'll get a ceo coming out 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:51.019 from eastern canada to want to work with an indigenous 00:09:51.019 --> 00:09:54.019 community in northern British Columbia and he 00:09:54.019 --> 00:09:56.399 or she will book you know okay I'm going to be 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.519 here between and my meeting set up between 11 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:03.019 and 12 on Tuesday and then they'll show up and 00:10:03.019 --> 00:10:06.259 and the meeting doesn't start on time and and 00:10:06.259 --> 00:10:11.600 you know and and I if I'm on the advisory side 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:13.909 or I'm with them in some form, whatever. I'll 00:10:13.909 --> 00:10:16.309 hear, oh, complaints, look, they're late, you 00:10:16.309 --> 00:10:18.710 know, all this, look, another example, right? 00:10:19.370 --> 00:10:22.230 But the reality is that the Indigenous leader 00:10:22.230 --> 00:10:25.370 on the other side, not only are they the person 00:10:25.370 --> 00:10:28.230 responsible for economic development and looking 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:30.049 at that, but they're also the chief of their 00:10:30.049 --> 00:10:33.649 community, which is they're the leader. And you 00:10:33.649 --> 00:10:35.730 never know what might happen, right? Who knows, 00:10:35.769 --> 00:10:39.070 somebody might've got into trouble or, you know. 00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:42.789 something happened in a family or whatever it 00:10:42.789 --> 00:10:46.830 is and so it's not a sign of disrespect in fact 00:10:46.830 --> 00:10:50.149 the disrespect is being shown by the person who's 00:10:50.149 --> 00:10:54.289 upset that somehow their meeting got pushed back 00:10:54.289 --> 00:10:56.269 because they haven't taken the time to understand 00:10:56.269 --> 00:10:58.730 that actually the responsibility of the people 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:01.330 that you're you're speaking with is a lot more 00:11:01.330 --> 00:11:03.889 than just that conversation that you're having 00:11:03.889 --> 00:11:07.129 in that room and so one of the Examples I always 00:11:07.129 --> 00:11:09.190 give is somebody's coming in from somewhere else 00:11:09.190 --> 00:11:11.090 and going into a community to meet with chief 00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:13.429 and council or the elders or whatever it is, 00:11:13.509 --> 00:11:16.289 book two or three days, like just give yourself 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:20.570 the room and allow yourself the time. And then 00:11:20.570 --> 00:11:24.750 as you're coming in, maybe spend some time on 00:11:24.750 --> 00:11:27.610 Google and learn about the history of that community. 00:11:27.889 --> 00:11:30.909 Because, you know, we've had just a super quick 00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:33.409 story, but, you know, in Northern Ontario, we 00:11:33.409 --> 00:11:36.549 were working with a... a community up in the 00:11:36.549 --> 00:11:40.330 northwestern part of the province along the English 00:11:40.330 --> 00:11:44.950 River, where there was a UK company that built 00:11:44.950 --> 00:11:47.809 a pulp mill there, and they deposited mercury 00:11:47.809 --> 00:11:52.210 throughout the river system. And the cancer rates 00:11:52.210 --> 00:11:54.389 in the community are very high, even to this 00:11:54.389 --> 00:11:58.009 day. And it's a really hard story, right? Well, 00:11:58.129 --> 00:12:00.730 I was up there looking at a mineral development 00:12:00.730 --> 00:12:04.590 rare earth project. When we went into it, we 00:12:04.590 --> 00:12:07.169 thought we were, you know, good guys, the great 00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:09.190 idea, economic development out of this. And the 00:12:09.190 --> 00:12:11.230 response we got when we walked in the room wasn't 00:12:11.230 --> 00:12:14.090 particularly good. And I was quite critical of 00:12:14.090 --> 00:12:16.029 myself because I actually hadn't done the research 00:12:16.029 --> 00:12:19.009 before I went in. And they had a whole bunch 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:21.929 of guys who came in the 60s and the 70s that 00:12:21.929 --> 00:12:23.549 said, trust us, we're going to build this great 00:12:23.549 --> 00:12:25.389 project. And now they're still living at that 00:12:25.389 --> 00:12:28.450 legacy 50 years later. So it's not that things 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:31.259 should stop, but it's if you. go into that conversation 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:34.840 without an understanding of the context of the 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.379 real life experience of the people on the ground, 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.059 you're not really doing a good job. And I feel 00:12:41.059 --> 00:12:44.419 like we're a little lazy sometimes. We don't 00:12:44.419 --> 00:12:46.679 really take the time to understand people's lived 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.919 experience. And unless you do that, you're not 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:52.840 showing respect when you walk in the room. So 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.340 those are the kind of things that we try and... 00:12:56.029 --> 00:12:57.970 Work with people. And, you know, at the end of 00:12:57.970 --> 00:12:59.690 the day, it's kind of a human to human thing. 00:12:59.769 --> 00:13:03.009 It's not really academic Indigenous engagement. 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:06.269 It's like if you're going to do business or want 00:13:06.269 --> 00:13:08.149 to work in somebody's community, you better know 00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:10.509 who they are and what their history is. So I 00:13:10.509 --> 00:13:12.409 don't know. I mean, it sounds fairly straightforward, 00:13:12.490 --> 00:13:15.129 but it's amazing how many people don't do it. 00:13:16.509 --> 00:13:18.929 I think part of the challenge is that is when 00:13:18.929 --> 00:13:21.570 you and we've heard before, if you have a Japanese 00:13:21.570 --> 00:13:24.070 group coming in or a Korean group coming in. 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.600 they have a deep appreciation they're coming 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:30.039 into a different culture. So they start from 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.620 ground zero and assume they know nothing. I think 00:13:32.620 --> 00:13:36.580 with Canadians within Canada, they go across 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:40.259 the country and they think, well, nothing's changed. 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:44.419 I know this place. And they don't recognize that 00:13:44.419 --> 00:13:47.539 there are different cultures. They're in a different 00:13:47.539 --> 00:13:49.200 place. And I think the other thing is the Indigenous 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.200 people have a different sense of time. And it's 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.899 not necessarily linear as well. right? Well, 00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:59.080 and one thing that Christy really helps me, part 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.200 of writing that book, I learned so much just 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.100 working with her and exploring these issues more 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:07.200 deeply. And, you know, one of the things that 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.759 she's really good at in working with leaders 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.379 and things is to recognize that, like, don't 00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:15.659 be scared, right? Like, ask questions. Like, 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.360 if you don't know, then just ask. It's okay, 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.549 right? Like, but I know there's a... There's 00:14:22.549 --> 00:14:25.029 a certain intimidation factor sometimes for many 00:14:25.029 --> 00:14:27.110 people when they're entering this space. But 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:30.210 the reality is, at least in my experience, is 00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:34.009 if you sit down with a positive intent and a 00:14:34.009 --> 00:14:36.490 curiosity and you ask somebody to tell you their 00:14:36.490 --> 00:14:39.990 story, they generally will. Nobody will take 00:14:39.990 --> 00:14:41.889 offense to that. I mean, they might say they're 00:14:41.889 --> 00:14:43.889 not ready right now or whatever it might be. 00:14:43.929 --> 00:14:46.970 That's okay. But if you come in with a sincere 00:14:46.970 --> 00:14:52.669 desire to learn. Most cultures will respond quite 00:14:52.669 --> 00:14:55.169 positively to that. But we don't always give 00:14:55.169 --> 00:14:58.529 ourselves the time. And I think it's really, 00:14:58.610 --> 00:15:01.190 really important to slow down a bit sometimes. 00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:05.850 So it is a very good handbook of how to engage 00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:07.669 with Indigenous peoples. And I think it applies 00:15:07.669 --> 00:15:11.490 anywhere. When I was reading through it, I thought 00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:13.710 there were good lessons for anybody doing business 00:15:13.710 --> 00:15:17.309 with any different culture to take the time and 00:15:17.309 --> 00:15:22.159 think things through. What makes Falkirk's approach 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:28.100 different with Indigenous engagement? And why 00:15:28.100 --> 00:15:30.860 does this really matter for project outcomes? 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.279 Because you have built something unique. Yeah, 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:36.500 thanks for the question, Mark. So we're about 00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:40.600 65, 70 people headquartered in North Vancouver 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.840 on the west coast of Canada. And we have a team 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.350 across the country. We have this kind of idea 00:15:47.350 --> 00:15:49.350 around project realization. We're really set 00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:53.549 up to help proponents be successful. And so we 00:15:53.549 --> 00:15:56.169 focus on a couple of key areas. Indigenous engagement 00:15:56.169 --> 00:15:58.870 is critical in partnership development. We're 00:15:58.870 --> 00:16:00.950 really strong in the regulatory and public policy 00:16:00.950 --> 00:16:04.289 side. And then we have a real focus on water 00:16:04.289 --> 00:16:07.049 stewardship, mostly. And we chose those areas 00:16:07.049 --> 00:16:09.649 because they tend to be the things. that people 00:16:09.649 --> 00:16:11.950 often care about the most right like water is 00:16:11.950 --> 00:16:14.289 life you know you hear that right so we said 00:16:14.289 --> 00:16:16.009 if we're going to be credible in this space we 00:16:16.009 --> 00:16:18.269 need to we need to be really good in that area 00:16:18.269 --> 00:16:21.149 so we have a really really strong team that focuses 00:16:21.149 --> 00:16:23.309 on water protection and water quality and things 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:26.750 like that but then it's also this concept of 00:16:26.750 --> 00:16:29.490 indigenous communities aren't just consulted 00:16:29.490 --> 00:16:32.950 but they're actively engaged in the the development 00:16:32.950 --> 00:16:35.470 the design the consideration the protection measures 00:16:35.470 --> 00:16:40.740 all those things and so Christy, my co -author, 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:44.220 she leads that group and it all starts at that 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.360 spot. And it's pragmatic in the sense that, you 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.879 know, the reality is that from a legal perspective, 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.200 Indigenous communities, First Nations in Canada 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.659 have won almost every Supreme Court case for 00:16:56.659 --> 00:16:58.919 the last 20 years that they've brought forward, 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:00.899 right? The legal landscape has fundamentally 00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:06.000 changed along with... UNDRIP and those legislation 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.980 being brought in both in British Columbia, but 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:11.440 nationally as well. So your starting point is 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.700 if whether you're building an LNG project or 00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:18.339 a pipeline or a mining project or a renewable 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:22.259 energy project, it all starts with good science 00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:24.759 and environmental protection and stewardship 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:27.259 and all that kind of stuff. But that relationship 00:17:27.259 --> 00:17:30.880 development side has to be, it isn't an add -on. 00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:33.750 right it's it's implicit as part of the dna of 00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:36.210 how you do a project and so that's what we really 00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:39.670 try and focus on and support um and we've had 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:41.910 a lot of success with that we've been able to 00:17:41.910 --> 00:17:44.950 move you know there's often a a conversation 00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:47.750 out there i i see in the in the press all the 00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:49.890 time that it takes 15 years to get a project 00:17:49.890 --> 00:17:52.609 going and and i've encountered with that i'm 00:17:52.609 --> 00:17:54.930 like not good projects that have actually done 00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:57.609 it well. That isn't true. And I don't know why 00:17:57.609 --> 00:17:59.250 the industry keeps saying that because they're 00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:01.230 like, oh, it takes 15 to 20 years. And I'm like, 00:18:01.309 --> 00:18:04.250 actually, no, there's been a bunch of projects 00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.190 over the last five or six years. But look at 00:18:06.190 --> 00:18:08.809 the key ingredients that have worked. They have 00:18:08.809 --> 00:18:11.900 Indigenous partnerships. design a good project 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:13.720 in cooperation with people one of the things 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.859 the industry does a lot i find anyway is we'll 00:18:16.859 --> 00:18:19.559 you know we'll go away and we'll design a project 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.539 and then we'll go out and try and convince everybody 00:18:21.539 --> 00:18:24.180 that it's the best project you consult on the 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:26.539 design that you've come up with well you're kind 00:18:26.539 --> 00:18:28.380 of on a back foot right when you start right 00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:31.920 because people are like hold on you know if they 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:33.680 had been involved in the conversation you might 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:35.740 end it up in the same place or you might end 00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:38.440 it up somewhere else but so it's kind of like 00:18:39.229 --> 00:18:44.049 I almost feel like we need to be a little more 00:18:44.049 --> 00:18:45.730 creative. I think we need to be a little smarter. 00:18:46.589 --> 00:18:49.009 And the industry players that have figured that 00:18:49.009 --> 00:18:51.470 out, we work with, have been really, really successful. 00:18:51.950 --> 00:18:55.109 And it's kind of fun. It's quite gratifying if 00:18:55.109 --> 00:18:56.710 you can actually see a project move forward. 00:18:57.230 --> 00:18:59.609 That gives us a lot of professional satisfaction. 00:18:59.970 --> 00:19:03.730 So that's kind of what we focus on. Give some 00:19:03.730 --> 00:19:06.190 examples, Mike, of the ones who've done it well 00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:09.720 and what sort of timeframes. What are we looking 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:13.740 at? Yeah. Well, one is there's a company called 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:15.859 the Cisco Development Corporation out of Montreal. 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.740 And they're a meaningful sized group. They're 00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:23.579 part of the Cisco group. And they're developing 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:26.319 a $700 million project right now. It's under 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.259 construction today. They did all the financing 00:19:29.259 --> 00:19:33.259 and everything a few months back. So, you know, 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:38.610 it's great to see the evolution of that. moved 00:19:38.610 --> 00:19:44.029 through the process from beginning in 2021 to 00:19:44.029 --> 00:19:46.950 2024 in approximately three years. And that was 00:19:46.950 --> 00:19:49.990 a full environmental assessment under the new 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:52.509 Environmental Assessment Act in British Columbia 00:19:52.509 --> 00:19:58.170 that was brought in 2018, 2019. It involved consensus 00:19:58.170 --> 00:20:00.509 all the way through with Indigenous communities. 00:20:00.529 --> 00:20:02.369 One of the things that they've done on the regulatory 00:20:02.369 --> 00:20:05.910 side on the West Coast of Canada is there's these... 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:08.289 these points along the process where you have 00:20:08.289 --> 00:20:11.150 to be able to show that you have consensus it 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:12.730 isn't you know in the old days what they would 00:20:12.730 --> 00:20:15.710 do is there'd be a big report it would go in 00:20:15.710 --> 00:20:17.650 for review and that would be either a yes or 00:20:17.650 --> 00:20:20.720 no they've now created a process where it's like 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.359 there's these check -ins all the way along and 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:25.440 I think it's good because you know you get a 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.380 temperature along the way it isn't like you're 00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:29.900 left at the end and you're just wondering are 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:31.660 they going to get the approval by the time you 00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:34.299 get to the last chapter you should know what 00:20:34.299 --> 00:20:36.079 the outcome is there shouldn't be any surprises 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.309 to anybody and so it puts a lot of onus on the 00:20:39.309 --> 00:20:41.710 proponent to do a lot more engagement up front 00:20:41.710 --> 00:20:44.750 and make sure that you're aligned. I think the 00:20:44.750 --> 00:20:47.130 policy objective that the province of BC had, 00:20:47.269 --> 00:20:50.349 I think it's working actually. It's quite positive. 00:20:50.670 --> 00:20:54.009 At Cisco, we were the lead for all the permitting 00:20:54.009 --> 00:20:58.470 and EA on it. They got all their final operating 00:20:58.470 --> 00:21:01.930 permits and construction permits a little earlier 00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:03.990 this year and now they're in full construction. 00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:07.609 And basically in five years, they went from, 00:21:07.609 --> 00:21:11.069 you know, early design through to shovels in 00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:12.930 the ground and actually building from beginning 00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:15.430 to end. So I think that's a pretty good win. 00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:18.630 And it's a partnership with the La Tacodene and 00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:22.690 the Williams Lake India Band. And there's another 00:21:22.690 --> 00:21:24.609 nation called Hassell that's part of it as well. 00:21:24.930 --> 00:21:27.869 And it hasn't been easy. Like, I don't want to 00:21:27.869 --> 00:21:29.750 ever pretend that it was a straight line. And 00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:33.319 it wasn't, right? But it's... the beginning to 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.460 the end has gone really, really well. So that's 00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:39.059 just one example. And there's a bunch of other 00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:41.299 ones actually in the province as well and elsewhere 00:21:41.299 --> 00:21:46.259 in Canada. Yeah. And did the Indigenous communities, 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.180 First Nations, take equity in that project? Is 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:53.680 that how that partnership is structured? Yeah, 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:58.440 that's super interesting. The relationship there 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:03.579 on this particular project has been more, impact 00:22:03.579 --> 00:22:07.940 benefit financial considerations. I don't believe 00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:09.940 at this particular moment in time, there's a 00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:13.559 direct equity ownership piece in a Cisco, but 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:17.720 there is equity ownership in pieces of the project, 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.859 like the power line, for example, that is a hundred 00:22:20.859 --> 00:22:23.160 million dollar project, which is connecting from 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.319 the town of Quesnel through to the mine site. 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.299 And that's an active development area. rather 00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:33.799 than the mine itself and the the project there's 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.619 there's parts of the project there's real estate 00:22:36.619 --> 00:22:39.240 there's the transmission line there's a bunch 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.140 of commitments on contracting opportunities and 00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:45.140 things like that so that has been the the track 00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:47.420 that's been taken there now other parts of the 00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:49.779 province there's been significant equity participation 00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:52.799 either or across the country and you gentlemen 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.740 i'm sure aware of that where equity participation 00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:59.019 is is happening and i I think it's absolutely 00:22:59.019 --> 00:23:02.920 wonderful. Now, I do get a little nervous sometimes 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.500 because mining stocks can go up and down and 00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:08.420 everything, but it's shared risk, shared reward. 00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:11.619 So I think it can be a really, really positive 00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:14.079 part of the package. I don't think it should 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:16.599 be all the package. I think it's part of the 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:18.519 package. You're now a part owner in the project. 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.740 And so on a Cisco, I may be wrong, but I don't 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:24.680 believe there's equity, but there is equity. 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:27.259 pieces of the project for sure, which are really 00:23:27.259 --> 00:23:29.680 meaningful. And the wonderful thing about like 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.920 a power line or something is that will long outlive 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:35.799 the mine itself, right? Because mines are finite, 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.460 right? They're usually 15 to 20 years, whatever 00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:41.059 they might be. A power line, a major piece of 00:23:41.059 --> 00:23:43.720 infrastructure connected now runs right up through 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.140 the center of the province and will support all 00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:49.079 others. And now you have this. long -term recurring 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.880 stable revenue source, relatively low risk. Well, 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.079 really almost zero risk because the power is 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:58.759 bought by VC Hydro. And to me, that's like the 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:00.880 best outcome you could find, right? Because now 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.819 you have this dependable multi -generational 00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:08.619 revenue source and it's kind of a stimulus for 00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:10.619 a whole bunch of other stuff to potentially happen 00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:13.700 in the future, not just being tied to one project 00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:18.130 because they come and go, right? And so that's 00:24:18.130 --> 00:24:21.750 the kind of thing they focused on. Who is driving 00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:24.410 that strategic focus you just talked about? Because 00:24:24.410 --> 00:24:26.450 that's building infrastructure. As you said, 00:24:26.470 --> 00:24:30.490 that lasts after the project. Is that the corporate 00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:32.710 partner coming in and saying, as part of the 00:24:32.710 --> 00:24:36.250 benefits, here's something of real value? Or 00:24:36.250 --> 00:24:38.309 is that now the Indigenous leadership saying, 00:24:38.569 --> 00:24:41.490 yeah, we get the idea of having a share in the 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:43.589 project, but all this other stuff we want to 00:24:43.589 --> 00:24:46.220 contribute and build? develop our own capability 00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:50.079 capacity to contribute you know i i think it 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:52.200 it's actually consistent with the ethic that 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:53.960 was kind of brought to the project in the first 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.839 place and it part of it is what's doable you 00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.180 know like a community is not going to go from 00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:02.619 most communities and i i don't have to be careful 00:25:02.619 --> 00:25:05.240 i don't want to have generalizations but any 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.539 of us like if you were to i don't know to try 00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:09.640 to get into another aspect of the business like 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:12.980 mine contracting or something like it's a It's 00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:16.039 really competitive. It's not easy, right? So 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:20.240 in some respects, it's about picking the opportunities 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:26.160 that have the most possibility of success with 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:30.240 manageable risk, right? And credit to the province 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.160 of British Columbia and to Canada and to BC Hydro 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:36.720 who have been really supportive of this. The 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.480 nation decided that this was something that they 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.500 wanted to be a part of. And the company, to their 00:25:42.500 --> 00:25:44.819 credit, is really open to it. And they see the 00:25:44.819 --> 00:25:47.420 implicit benefit on both sides. They need a power 00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:49.859 line. The community is looking for long -term 00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:51.779 positive economic development. And you've got 00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:53.680 a supportive set of partners around you. So, 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:56.180 you know, sometimes it's a bit of a Sudoku puzzle, 00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:58.140 right? You know, you get all these things together 00:25:58.140 --> 00:26:00.759 and it makes it work. It doesn't always work. 00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:04.119 But in this case, that was a really great opportunity. 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:06.319 So I think it was just seen by everybody involved 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.579 as one of the examples of something that could 00:26:09.579 --> 00:26:13.180 be a long -term. positive economic opportunity 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:17.920 in their territories. And the Prime Minister 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:23.940 of Canada is over in Asia at the moment and talking 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:27.539 about Canada being an energy superpower. And 00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.700 of course, the subject also comes up of critical 00:26:29.700 --> 00:26:34.740 minerals. What are you seeing on critical minerals? 00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:39.619 People, they want to be part of the processing. 00:26:39.619 --> 00:26:41.700 They want to control that because this is a whole 00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:44.519 new ballgame because Canada is back open for 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:47.480 business. Yeah, Mark, it's a really good question. 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.240 And it's interesting because we have to be a 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.779 little careful about pan -Canadian generalizations 00:26:53.779 --> 00:26:56.339 because different communities have different 00:26:56.339 --> 00:27:01.019 perspectives on these things. I think. Well, 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.240 you're from Vancouver, so I'm not sure how much 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.619 of a fan you are of the Toronto Maple Leafs. 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.500 The Blue Jays are a Canadian team. I'm a Blue 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:17.019 Jays fan now. But, you know, look, I think this 00:27:17.019 --> 00:27:21.259 is an extraordinary opportunity. I mean, I think 00:27:21.259 --> 00:27:23.359 part of it is the alignment of all the different 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:29.630 interests that are aligned. Progressive companies 00:27:29.630 --> 00:27:31.549 and their practices, I think, are happening. 00:27:31.670 --> 00:27:34.809 And I don't, again, not every company has figured 00:27:34.809 --> 00:27:37.529 it out, right? And there are some actors out 00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:39.769 there that still kind of want to run roughshod 00:27:39.769 --> 00:27:42.950 over communities. And so we can't pretend everything's 00:27:42.950 --> 00:27:46.970 perfect yet by any stretch. And even the majors 00:27:46.970 --> 00:27:48.789 are still learning, right? And they make mistakes 00:27:48.789 --> 00:27:51.670 and everything. I do think that the basic intent 00:27:51.670 --> 00:27:56.680 underneath that is positive. And so the... the 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:01.259 opportunity that is presented by critical minerals 00:28:01.259 --> 00:28:04.839 development is extraordinary. The other part 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:08.640 of this that is coming in is the access to capital. 00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:12.380 So whether it's loan guarantees, whether it's 00:28:12.380 --> 00:28:17.319 the Canada Infrastructure Bank, Canadian Growth 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.759 Fund, whether it's the First Nations Bank of 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:25.720 Canada, whether it's the various... There's a 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:29.079 group of Raven Capital partners that operate 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:33.019 in this. There's so much, which I think is critical 00:28:33.019 --> 00:28:37.099 because in the past, I think there's been such 00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:39.880 a power differential between big corporations 00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.500 and Indigenous communities who want to participate 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:45.420 but don't have access to capital to do so. And 00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:49.000 so you end up in this sort of almost a paternalistic 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:53.579 relationship that is not, I don't think it's... 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:56.200 it's not set up for success necessarily. And 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:59.039 it feeds into the old systems of colonialism 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:01.519 and everything. And so now you're beginning to 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.400 get a more leveling of the playing field. And 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:06.059 I think we still got a lot of work to do. And 00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:08.220 I worry a little bit that we're, you know, the 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.559 old adage in Canada that we're out over our skis 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.720 sometimes, you know, like because everybody's 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.220 chasing the billions, but there's a lot of hard 00:29:15.220 --> 00:29:18.319 work to do. I mean, even in our own work about, 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.039 I'll give you just a really quick example of 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:23.910 like. where things can break down sometimes, 00:29:24.269 --> 00:29:28.089 where you have an enlightened CEO, for example, 00:29:28.089 --> 00:29:30.130 and then you have a sustainability part and a 00:29:30.130 --> 00:29:32.190 department of Indigenous community, Indigenous 00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:35.130 advisors, and you have groups like Falkirk supporting 00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:37.490 and everything. And then you can go out and do 00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:40.869 all this great work and build the goodwill and 00:29:40.869 --> 00:29:44.549 everything. And then stuff flows into the finance 00:29:44.549 --> 00:29:46.309 department of the corporation where you have 00:29:46.309 --> 00:29:49.440 a CFO or something that... hasn't really bought 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:51.640 into this whole thing they're focusing on numbers 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.519 and they're like oh you guys are spending too 00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:56.039 much on those suppliers or whatever it is and 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.799 then things break down and so that because this 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.059 cultural change this awareness has it has not 00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:05.740 i mean it's for those of us who work in the space 00:30:05.740 --> 00:30:09.720 know that it's moving but my only caution is 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:13.589 that i i think I think we need to, everybody's 00:30:13.589 --> 00:30:16.549 running right now. And we also do have to do 00:30:16.549 --> 00:30:18.549 a bit of work to just make sure the foundational 00:30:18.549 --> 00:30:21.730 elements are completely there. And I think they 00:30:21.730 --> 00:30:23.809 are because the companies that figure it out 00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:26.829 are having extraordinary success. They're creating 00:30:26.829 --> 00:30:30.470 so much value. And there's so many examples in 00:30:30.470 --> 00:30:33.750 the different spaces that we're in. And I really 00:30:33.750 --> 00:30:35.869 believe there's some templates for companies 00:30:35.869 --> 00:30:39.460 if they're coming into Canada to follow. that 00:30:39.460 --> 00:30:43.099 have been very, very successful. And in fact, 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:47.200 I would argue, given global risk right now in 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.880 different just political environments, whether 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.339 it's South Central America or in other parts 00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:56.880 of the world, the ability to manage, if you do 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.559 it right in Canada, I think in many respects 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.799 far exceeds what we see in other parts of the 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.019 world where... You don't necessarily have the 00:31:05.019 --> 00:31:07.539 rule of law and your tenure is under threat sometimes. 00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:09.859 And we've seen so many examples of that over 00:31:09.859 --> 00:31:12.759 the last little while. So I think there's some 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:17.180 great opportunities in this space, Mark. Sounds 00:31:17.180 --> 00:31:21.740 like you're optimistic, Mike. There are some 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:24.400 challenges, but we've come a long way. You've 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:29.019 seen a lot of changes over your career from the 00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:35.049 law and legislation and case law. and the approach 00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:39.170 from business too. Do you think they see the 00:31:39.170 --> 00:31:43.869 value now of the Indigenous partnerships, meaningful 00:31:43.869 --> 00:31:47.609 partnerships? I really do, Robin. And I mean, 00:31:49.230 --> 00:31:52.710 the reality is that the people in these First 00:31:52.710 --> 00:31:54.589 Nations and Indigenous communities are the ones 00:31:54.589 --> 00:31:57.319 who... They know the landscape. They know the 00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.539 area that you're working in. They have an intrinsic 00:31:59.539 --> 00:32:04.299 knowledge that is extraordinary. And I have had 00:32:04.299 --> 00:32:08.480 just absolutely wonderful experiences. And if 00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.079 you're willing to sort of take the time, like 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:13.880 we talked about at the beginning, and learn somebody's 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.160 story and build a partnership, like I'll give 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:19.299 you an example just super quick, like in terms 00:32:19.299 --> 00:32:22.599 of regulatory. efficiency and permitting timelines 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:24.500 and stuff. If you've got an indigenous community 00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:28.380 as a partner with you, I will guarantee you everything 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:32.380 will move quicker. And it removes so much of 00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:35.500 the political risk because in many respects, 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.720 governments are kind of following industry and 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:41.859 First Nations. They're not leading. If the nation 00:32:41.859 --> 00:32:45.319 and the company design a project together and 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.650 come to government, It's extraordinary how the 00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:53.750 waters part and you can move your project forward. 00:32:53.930 --> 00:32:57.529 And I think it isn't without commitment. It isn't 00:32:57.529 --> 00:32:59.910 without hard work, but the opportunity is definitely 00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:04.609 there. So I think we've had a great conversation. 00:33:04.650 --> 00:33:08.930 I think we could continue on and on. Just one 00:33:08.930 --> 00:33:12.150 thing. What would the young Michael McPhee say 00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:15.049 who was sitting in that meeting with the CEO 00:33:15.049 --> 00:33:18.089 from Toronto? After just telling that community, 00:33:18.289 --> 00:33:21.210 oh, everything's great. We've got the top engineers. 00:33:21.549 --> 00:33:27.430 What would be the advice now? Right? I felt sorry 00:33:27.430 --> 00:33:31.930 for that young man. Yeah, that was a learning 00:33:31.930 --> 00:33:36.569 moment, I have to say. And I mean, we all have 00:33:36.569 --> 00:33:38.670 those, right? There's moments in time where you're 00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:45.059 faced with someone and you are... You can look 00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:47.500 in their eyes and you can understand that the 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:53.500 story that they're telling is very real. I think, 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:58.299 honestly, Mark, I guess that old adage, slow 00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:02.220 down to speed up. Slow down and take the time 00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:04.819 to understand. We're all guilty of that a bit 00:34:04.819 --> 00:34:06.619 in business. We're all moving so quick right 00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:10.199 now. So many of our relationships are... you 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:12.079 know they kind of they don't always get below 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:13.900 the surface they're kind of like you're just 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:16.500 moving on and i think to be effective in this 00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:18.960 space of building partnerships is very much it's 00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:21.800 like a relationship and it's it's it's that whole 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.559 you like you can't legislate trust right like 00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:27.420 and and there's been so much we just have to 00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:30.179 understand that the trust deficit isn't your 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:32.519 fault it's not your fault if you're sitting across 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.340 from someone and they're talking about something 00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:36.019 that happened in the past it's not your fault 00:34:36.019 --> 00:34:39.260 so don't don't take that on but But in order 00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:41.139 to move forward, you have to spend some time 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:43.500 to at least acknowledge that and spend some time 00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:45.619 to understand somebody's story. And I think that's 00:34:45.619 --> 00:34:48.000 in all of human relationships almost, because 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.460 then once you do that, then you can move forward. 00:34:50.619 --> 00:34:52.800 And I think that's part of the issue is I don't 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.739 think we've, I think there's so much noise in 00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:58.219 the political space and there's, you know, some 00:34:58.219 --> 00:35:00.960 outdated perspectives on who First Nations people 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.539 are. I mean, one of the things we talk about 00:35:02.539 --> 00:35:05.389 is. When you see an Indigenous person, do you 00:35:05.389 --> 00:35:07.489 see a future CEO or are you seeing something 00:35:07.489 --> 00:35:11.349 else? And why is that? What bias are you carrying 00:35:11.349 --> 00:35:14.449 around in your mind that's having you approach 00:35:14.449 --> 00:35:17.070 somebody with a certain perspective, right? And 00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:19.429 is it really based on that person or is it based 00:35:19.429 --> 00:35:23.250 on something else? And so I just feel like for 00:35:23.250 --> 00:35:26.530 me as a young guy, you know, I wish, but, you 00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:28.449 know, I'm a young guy, so I don't really know 00:35:28.449 --> 00:35:31.670 at that point in time. I know, I think I know 00:35:31.670 --> 00:35:35.369 now. And I'm still learning every day. So I just 00:35:35.369 --> 00:35:38.190 think, yeah, take the time to learn other people's 00:35:38.190 --> 00:35:40.690 story. And I think that's it. And then approach 00:35:40.690 --> 00:35:44.510 that relationship with positive intent. And there's 00:35:44.510 --> 00:35:46.769 no shortage of things that you might be able 00:35:46.769 --> 00:35:51.690 to do. Well, thank you, Michael McPhee. I think 00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:56.409 Falkirk Consulting, that's a great way to wrap 00:35:56.409 --> 00:35:59.869 it up. We've had a wonderful conversation. And 00:35:59.869 --> 00:36:02.590 I think there are many Indigenous. CEO leaders 00:36:02.590 --> 00:36:06.530 out there coming to foreign, growing up in the 00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:09.469 organizations. That's what's changing everything 00:36:09.469 --> 00:36:13.849 now as Rob Brandt is a perfect example of that, 00:36:13.989 --> 00:36:17.969 Rob. Yeah, Mike, thanks for taking the time with 00:36:17.969 --> 00:36:20.809 us today. You're a great ally and a great advocate. 00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:23.389 And I want to thank you for all the work you 00:36:23.389 --> 00:36:28.650 do in this space and for the generous way you 00:36:28.650 --> 00:36:33.719 share your insights. Thanks, Rob. It's a pleasure 00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:35.559 and a privilege to be part of the conversation. 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:40.039 So thank you. Thank you to Michael McPhee for 00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:42.860 sharing his insights with us. And thank you for 00:36:42.860 --> 00:36:45.980 viewing and listening. Mark your calendars for 00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:48.820 the upcoming 2026 Summit taking place on the 00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:52.019 8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe, and 00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:54.059 leave a review on your favorite podcast channel. 00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:57.199 Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. Until next 00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.519 time.