WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.069 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.710 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.990 --> 00:00:15.769 I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brandt 00:00:15.769 --> 00:00:18.250 and I are joined today by Catherine Pennington, 00:00:18.370 --> 00:00:22.030 Director, Indigenous Advisory Services, KPMG 00:00:22.030 --> 00:00:25.030 Canada, where she discussed her background in 00:00:25.030 --> 00:00:27.510 social work and transition to the energy sector. 00:00:28.620 --> 00:00:31.280 She emphasized the importance of Indigenous relations 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:35.000 in corporate projects, citing Bill C -5's components 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:38.140 on labour mobility and project expediting in 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:41.960 particular. Pennington highlighted KPMG's Truth 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.840 and Reconciliation Action Plan and its focus 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.579 on Indigenous equity, commercial structuring 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:50.380 and financing. She noted the need for skilled 00:00:50.380 --> 00:00:53.399 Indigenous relations professionals and the role 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:56.159 of international models in guiding Canada's practices. 00:00:57.770 --> 00:01:00.149 Pennington also stressed the significance of 00:01:00.149 --> 00:01:02.750 Indigenous participation in major projects, including 00:01:02.750 --> 00:01:06.069 infrastructure and energy, to unlock billions 00:01:06.069 --> 00:01:09.349 in private investment necessary for these projects 00:01:09.349 --> 00:01:14.349 to come to fruition. Catherine Pennington, the 00:01:14.349 --> 00:01:17.450 Director of Indigenous Advisory Services at KPMG. 00:01:17.510 --> 00:01:22.230 Great of you to join us today on Drumbeats. Wonderful 00:01:22.230 --> 00:01:25.790 to be here. Thank you so much. It's such an opportunity 00:01:25.790 --> 00:01:29.129 to spend some time with the two of you on some 00:01:29.129 --> 00:01:32.590 very important discussions. Yes, great to have 00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:35.109 you with us, Catherine. So why don't we get into 00:01:35.109 --> 00:01:37.349 it? Why don't you tell us a little bit about 00:01:37.349 --> 00:01:40.290 yourself? Where did you grow up and how does 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:42.790 your educational background and work experience 00:01:42.790 --> 00:01:46.909 shape your path to where you are today? And you 00:01:46.909 --> 00:01:49.290 have some items you'll have to talk about sometime 00:01:49.290 --> 00:01:53.109 during the conversation. I certainly will. Well, 00:01:53.230 --> 00:01:55.409 yeah, thanks again for having me. It's such a 00:01:55.409 --> 00:01:57.989 pleasure to be here. So I'm, first of all, I'm 00:01:57.989 --> 00:02:00.909 joining you today on the traditional and unceded 00:02:00.909 --> 00:02:04.689 territory of the Klele -Tene people in North. 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.379 central British Columbia, otherwise known as 00:02:07.379 --> 00:02:10.800 Prince George, BC. And I've had the opportunity 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.460 to live on this territory as a guest here for 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:18.000 about the last 15 years. But I'm originally from 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.020 Treaty 6 territory in the Métis homeland. I'm 00:02:21.020 --> 00:02:23.659 a citizen of the Métis Nation of Saskatchewan 00:02:23.659 --> 00:02:27.139 by birth, born and raised in a small little community 00:02:27.139 --> 00:02:29.900 called Duck Lake, Saskatchewan. And I always 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:32.360 like to talk about that because it has about 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.379 500 people. And for a lot of people in the world, 00:02:36.620 --> 00:02:41.060 500 people is a pretty small number. But I think 00:02:41.060 --> 00:02:44.120 it had like a really significant... shaping of 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:46.680 me and the way that I see the world and the way 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.979 that I operate in the world. So a citizen of 00:02:49.979 --> 00:02:52.319 the Métis Nation of Saskatchewan by birth, now 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.819 a citizen of the Métis Nation of British Columbia 00:02:54.819 --> 00:02:58.990 based on where I live here. And yeah, you know, 00:02:58.990 --> 00:03:03.009 I spent the last 20 some years in the energy 00:03:03.009 --> 00:03:06.610 sector, but I didn't come to the energy sector 00:03:06.610 --> 00:03:09.150 in the traditional way. And I don't actually 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:12.569 believe that I practice in industry now as the 00:03:12.569 --> 00:03:15.030 director of Indigenous Advisory Services for 00:03:15.030 --> 00:03:19.169 KPMG in maybe the traditional way. So I know 00:03:19.169 --> 00:03:21.729 that a lot of the conversations that you folks 00:03:21.729 --> 00:03:24.270 have are around capital markets and investment. 00:03:24.469 --> 00:03:26.370 We're going to talk a little bit about that. 00:03:26.509 --> 00:03:29.520 today. But my disclaimer is always that you are 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:32.060 talking to a social worker and a psychotherapist. 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.460 I'm not a banker. I don't have a background in 00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:39.139 technical finance or engineering. But I came 00:03:39.139 --> 00:03:42.199 into the energy sector from social work. I was 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:44.439 working at the time for a number of years in 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:47.740 family services and child protection. And I had 00:03:47.740 --> 00:03:50.539 an opportunity to go into industry. I actually 00:03:50.539 --> 00:03:54.240 got a phone call one day from a company. We were 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:56.680 living in the very far north of the Northwest. 00:03:56.939 --> 00:04:00.539 territories, border of Canada and BC. And there 00:04:00.539 --> 00:04:04.039 was this opportunity to join, at that time, an 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:07.180 Aboriginal relations team. It was an interesting 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:09.939 transition. I took the opportunity because I 00:04:09.939 --> 00:04:13.860 think I knew even then, like 25 years ago, that 00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:17.520 I could probably do better social work. inside 00:04:17.520 --> 00:04:20.300 an organization, inside a company and affect 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:24.439 change in a way that I was unable to do on the 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:26.779 front lines of social work. Now, I have great 00:04:26.779 --> 00:04:29.959 respect for my peers that have remained in social 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.579 work. But for me, I thought if I can affect Indigenous 00:04:33.579 --> 00:04:37.379 peoples and jobs and opportunities, and if I 00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:39.920 can work with communities in a way that's around 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.660 economic development, that's going to affect 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:45.060 everything. That's going to affect... jobs and 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:48.540 employment, poverty. And really, from my perspective, 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.759 you know, being a social worker, often I say 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:53.379 like at 11 o 'clock at night on the doorstep 00:04:53.379 --> 00:04:56.540 with the RCMP, that's like front end crisis social 00:04:56.540 --> 00:04:59.079 work. I was more interested in being on the upstream 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:02.000 side of social work. So spent a number of years 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.220 in the energy sector, the upstream, the midstream 00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:08.300 and energy transportation on the pipeline sector 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:11.670 side. And then over the last few years have transitioned 00:05:11.670 --> 00:05:15.430 here to KPMG and really love it because it's 00:05:15.430 --> 00:05:18.220 an opportunity. to work with so many different 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:21.439 companies and sectors. And I really enjoy that. 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:23.860 Most importantly about me is I'm a mother. I 00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:27.279 have two children. My daughter is 18 and in pre 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:31.180 -med, studying biochemistry. I don't know how 00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:32.860 on earth she can do that. For a social worker, 00:05:32.980 --> 00:05:36.480 that's really amazing. And my son, who's finishing 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.439 high school and has a real interest around justice 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.540 and psychology. So I probably have more in common 00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:47.149 with him on that side. but very lucky to be a 00:05:47.149 --> 00:05:50.589 mother and to have two amazing children. And 00:05:50.589 --> 00:05:53.910 my husband and I live here in Prince George and 00:05:53.910 --> 00:05:56.870 we really love the North. We've always really 00:05:56.870 --> 00:05:59.389 loved the North. Growing up in North Central 00:05:59.389 --> 00:06:02.970 Saskatchewan stays with me. It's like really 00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:06.230 who I am. So I think I always valued the opportunity 00:06:06.230 --> 00:06:11.990 to live in Northern Canada. So thank you. Wow. 00:06:12.089 --> 00:06:14.470 That's a really interesting backstory, Catherine. 00:06:14.910 --> 00:06:18.149 And when this podcast goes out, I'm going to 00:06:18.149 --> 00:06:21.170 forward it to my son, who's a social worker and 00:06:21.170 --> 00:06:25.550 still on the front lines. But he and I have discussions 00:06:25.550 --> 00:06:29.189 about some of the similarities between our work, 00:06:29.230 --> 00:06:32.810 my work, economic development, and his work on 00:06:32.810 --> 00:06:36.970 the social side, both trying to achieve better. 00:06:37.990 --> 00:06:40.930 standard of living and outcomes for Indigenous 00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:44.689 peoples just in different ways. But that's really 00:06:44.689 --> 00:06:47.370 interesting how you found your way into the corporate 00:06:47.370 --> 00:06:50.470 world after starting out on the front lines. 00:06:50.709 --> 00:06:55.350 It wasn't a terribly difficult transition. I 00:06:55.350 --> 00:06:59.329 think coming from a social work and social services 00:06:59.329 --> 00:07:02.769 background. Working predominantly with Indigenous 00:07:02.769 --> 00:07:05.449 communities at the time around things like social 00:07:05.449 --> 00:07:08.089 welfare delegation, like the ability for Indigenous 00:07:08.089 --> 00:07:10.750 communities to have custody and control over 00:07:10.750 --> 00:07:12.889 child welfare, which continues to be like a really 00:07:12.889 --> 00:07:17.069 significant challenge for our country. But when 00:07:17.069 --> 00:07:20.129 I was transitioning, the skills that were needed 00:07:20.129 --> 00:07:23.089 there were also needed working within industry 00:07:23.089 --> 00:07:25.449 and community. You know, the ability to listen, 00:07:25.610 --> 00:07:27.850 to summarize, to understand, to peace build, 00:07:27.930 --> 00:07:31.560 conflict resolution. So I felt very fortunate 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:33.500 that I always worked for companies that really 00:07:33.500 --> 00:07:37.319 valued that skill set. And I think that it does 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:40.740 go to show, Rob, that what you study in life, 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:43.279 you may end up doing very different things, but 00:07:43.279 --> 00:08:01.720 the core skills are what's most important. understanding 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:03.959 the whole world that we live in the visible and 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:08.199 invisible uh that thinking is actually where 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:11.220 corporations are going today right that's why 00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:14.120 esg became an issue and climate change because 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.920 we realize this holistic thinking is is important 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:22.839 so you know kudos to kpmg for bringing you on 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.459 board but i think that's just part of the process 00:08:25.459 --> 00:08:29.050 and as you said that's what makes decisions happen 00:08:29.050 --> 00:08:31.370 because you have to understand all of that the 00:08:31.370 --> 00:08:35.009 top down doesn't work in many places many more 00:08:35.009 --> 00:08:39.350 across societies as a whole we really all have 00:08:39.350 --> 00:08:44.049 to work together and bring everybody along to 00:08:44.049 --> 00:08:46.690 get those successful outcomes that that we want 00:08:46.690 --> 00:08:51.360 i've recently um had the opportunity to Speak 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.399 a little bit about Bill C -5, which is, of course, 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:57.899 quite a hot topic here in Canada. It's an enactment 00:08:57.899 --> 00:09:00.419 that has two components. One is around labor 00:09:00.419 --> 00:09:03.500 mobility, which I think is so crucial for our 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:07.059 country. We need to be able to move skilled labor 00:09:07.059 --> 00:09:11.970 trades. intellectual property across this country 00:09:11.970 --> 00:09:14.049 barrier free in order to really like meet the 00:09:14.049 --> 00:09:15.830 moment. And then the other component of that 00:09:15.830 --> 00:09:18.470 is, you know, the other legislation really focused 00:09:18.470 --> 00:09:21.009 on the expedition of projects and a number of 00:09:21.009 --> 00:09:24.049 initiatives around that. And one of the things 00:09:24.049 --> 00:09:25.970 that I think is going to be so crucial, Mark, 00:09:26.009 --> 00:09:28.789 to your point is we're going to need like never 00:09:28.789 --> 00:09:33.389 before, really skilled Indigenous relations professionals, 00:09:33.429 --> 00:09:37.049 because those are the people who are on the front 00:09:37.049 --> 00:09:40.149 line. who are working with Indigenous communities, 00:09:40.389 --> 00:09:42.590 who are building relationships, who are often 00:09:42.590 --> 00:09:45.570 the conduit between the corporate and the investment 00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:48.529 community and the Indigenous community. And I 00:09:48.529 --> 00:09:51.090 think that mistakes that have been made in the 00:09:51.090 --> 00:09:54.909 past have been that we have not invested in Indigenous 00:09:54.909 --> 00:09:57.950 relations departments in the way that we needed 00:09:57.950 --> 00:10:02.440 to. for, you know, it's a continuum and an evolution, 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.519 right? Like we've seen the beginning of my career 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.100 was really focused around pre -legislation in 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:11.700 many cases, was focused on can you get Indigenous 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:14.419 people to participate in the supply chain? But 00:10:14.419 --> 00:10:17.580 there were no systems or processes like to really 00:10:17.580 --> 00:10:20.720 maximize participation. So that didn't work that 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.169 well. So that had to evolve and grow. We've seen 00:10:24.169 --> 00:10:26.509 this evolution now to Indigenous communities 00:10:26.509 --> 00:10:30.009 on the equity front as investors and all of these 00:10:30.009 --> 00:10:31.889 amazing tools to help Indigenous communities 00:10:31.889 --> 00:10:36.629 as investors. But I think what we really need 00:10:36.629 --> 00:10:39.450 to think about is how do we as corporations facilitate 00:10:39.450 --> 00:10:43.710 getting to Indigenous -led projects, Indigenous 00:10:43.710 --> 00:10:45.789 equity and partnerships? Well, it's going to 00:10:45.789 --> 00:10:48.289 be the people that you invest in who are helping 00:10:48.289 --> 00:10:50.590 you to build those relationships. So I think 00:10:50.590 --> 00:10:53.590 the era of... you know, having very minimum staff 00:10:53.590 --> 00:10:56.610 or that being a department low funded. I just 00:10:56.610 --> 00:10:58.149 think those are over. If you want to build a 00:10:58.149 --> 00:11:00.389 project in this country, you're going to need 00:11:00.389 --> 00:11:02.389 the best Indigenous relations people that you 00:11:02.389 --> 00:11:04.350 can find and they need to be very skilled and 00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:07.669 they will be. You've talked on two interesting 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:10.250 points coming back to Bill C -5 with its two 00:11:10.250 --> 00:11:12.649 components, because a lot of our listeners and 00:11:12.649 --> 00:11:14.990 viewers won't understand when you're talking 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:16.970 about what do you mean freedom of movement of. 00:11:17.370 --> 00:11:19.929 to use a european term freedom movement across 00:11:19.929 --> 00:11:24.570 provinces because there are barriers to skilled 00:11:24.570 --> 00:11:27.690 individuals moving moving across with the different 00:11:27.690 --> 00:11:30.090 trades etc so that's something that's trying 00:11:30.090 --> 00:11:32.049 to being addressed and it looks like there's 00:11:32.049 --> 00:11:34.750 a lot of momentum with the provincial leaders 00:11:34.750 --> 00:11:37.850 in that regard which is just as important so 00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:41.889 it's not just how do we work in partnership with 00:11:41.889 --> 00:11:44.529 the indigenous community it's how do we set up 00:11:44.529 --> 00:11:51.019 canada to succeed in a very competitive and demanding 00:11:51.019 --> 00:11:54.080 economic environment. So there's that whole regulation 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.679 side, as well as how to work successfully within 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.940 Indigenous peoples who are our rights holders 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:04.320 and not just looking, oh, can you solve this 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:06.379 little problem for us? They want to participate 00:12:06.379 --> 00:12:08.460 and learn. You want to participate and learn. 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:11.200 So you can end up leading some of these organizations. 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.549 Perhaps one day KPMG will be led by. indigenous 00:12:14.549 --> 00:12:17.629 person there's that should be in the realm of 00:12:17.629 --> 00:12:23.649 possibility for anyone yeah i think that um and 00:12:23.649 --> 00:12:26.289 i'm certainly not an expert on like labor issues 00:12:26.289 --> 00:12:29.149 or labor mobility in the country but i i do know 00:12:29.149 --> 00:12:33.549 um just from leading indigenous skills training 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:36.110 programs through a good portion of my career 00:12:36.110 --> 00:12:39.509 as part of indigenous relations efforts and working 00:12:39.509 --> 00:12:45.429 with communities It is very challenging for organizations 00:12:45.429 --> 00:12:48.710 and major projects for labor mobility in the 00:12:48.710 --> 00:12:50.830 country. And that has been a real challenge for 00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:54.429 us. I think this enactment is looking at ways 00:12:54.429 --> 00:12:56.409 of alleviating that. And I think, Mark, you're 00:12:56.409 --> 00:12:59.509 right. There's a deeper appreciation and understanding 00:12:59.509 --> 00:13:02.730 of this being a really important effort. I think 00:13:02.730 --> 00:13:05.889 we also are under this existential threat with 00:13:05.889 --> 00:13:09.009 the Canada -U .S. situation. And a recognition 00:13:09.009 --> 00:13:12.549 that we really need to bolster our internal resources, 00:13:12.769 --> 00:13:15.350 meaning our people and our human capital, to 00:13:15.350 --> 00:13:18.590 help us move major projects, to move along and 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:23.360 to build that brings everyone along. There's 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.000 definitely an ongoing challenge with Indigenous 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.600 skills, and we really need to invest in that. 00:13:28.700 --> 00:13:31.419 I mean, I think in this country still, depending 00:13:31.419 --> 00:13:33.720 on where you are, depending if you're First Nation, 00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:36.919 Inuit or Métis, on average, on aggregate, the 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.059 graduation rate is still around 70 % of that 00:13:40.059 --> 00:13:42.899 of non -Indigenous students, right? So that's 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:45.440 really significant. That's like 30 % of our kids 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.220 are not graduating high school. So we need to 00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:51.409 be thinking about... I think, in parallel to 00:13:51.409 --> 00:13:54.990 major projects and Build Canada, are we also 00:13:54.990 --> 00:13:58.029 going to be parallel efforts really investing 00:13:58.029 --> 00:14:01.669 in Indigenous youth so that they have an opportunity, 00:14:01.750 --> 00:14:04.350 they see themselves in the picture? I like to 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:07.629 say that you can't be what you can't see. So 00:14:07.629 --> 00:14:10.590 we need to help younger people really see an 00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:14.570 opportunity in the trades, in sectors around 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:18.720 major projects, probably in all positions. as 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.100 that opportunity for the next generation to participate. 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:25.059 Not just about mobility, but capacity, capacity 00:14:25.059 --> 00:14:29.059 building, particularly within Indigenous communities. 00:14:30.379 --> 00:14:33.679 Catherine, what about KPMG's group, the Indigenous 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.379 Advisory Services Group? What does it look like 00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:40.440 and what sorts of things do you work on? Well, 00:14:40.460 --> 00:14:43.639 the KPMG Indigenous Advisory Services team is 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.139 like really a dedicated group of professionals 00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:49.419 that have unique skill sets of working with Indigenous 00:14:49.419 --> 00:14:52.360 communities. But I always like to say that it's 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:55.870 fascinating to me, like KPMG. has been a tax 00:14:55.870 --> 00:14:58.090 and audit provider. We're really well known for 00:14:58.090 --> 00:15:00.669 tax and audit. In fact, when I meet people and 00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:02.889 I say, oh, I work for KPMG, they're like, oh, 00:15:02.970 --> 00:15:05.470 are you an accountant or do you work in tax? 00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:08.190 And I think like the day that I'm doing any math 00:15:08.190 --> 00:15:10.629 is that a bad day. Like you should stop whatever 00:15:10.629 --> 00:15:13.570 I'm doing. I have no capacity for that. I'm, 00:15:13.710 --> 00:15:15.610 as I said, you know, I'm really focused on the 00:15:15.610 --> 00:15:19.429 social outcomes piece and health. But KPMG has 00:15:19.429 --> 00:15:22.190 been involved in Indigenous communities. There's 00:15:22.190 --> 00:15:24.669 some communities that some of our tax and audit 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:26.490 team have been working with for like over 20 00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:29.870 years. I think that speaks to the depth of relationship. 00:15:30.090 --> 00:15:33.230 Like this is a firm that understands the importance 00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:37.009 of relationship. There is a very difficult space 00:15:37.009 --> 00:15:39.330 to work in. So I think it really speaks to long 00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:41.830 -term relationships and the company's interest 00:15:41.830 --> 00:15:43.789 in investing, the firm's interest in investing. 00:15:44.809 --> 00:15:47.529 And investing is exactly what they did. In the 00:15:47.529 --> 00:15:50.809 advisory space, which is outside of tax and audit, 00:15:51.009 --> 00:15:54.190 over the last few years, there's been ongoing 00:15:54.190 --> 00:15:56.990 recognition and investment of hiring people like 00:15:56.990 --> 00:15:59.350 myself to come in and lead Indigenous advisory 00:15:59.350 --> 00:16:02.549 services. We have a larger Indigenous client 00:16:02.549 --> 00:16:05.769 services team that focuses on all of the aspects 00:16:05.769 --> 00:16:09.330 of the firm, and this is growing. also stems 00:16:09.330 --> 00:16:12.070 from our Truth and Reconciliation Action Plan, 00:16:12.309 --> 00:16:15.470 which unlike other corporate plans that I've 00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:18.549 seen and been involved in, is very detailed. 00:16:18.769 --> 00:16:20.470 So when you look at our Truth and Reconciliation 00:16:20.470 --> 00:16:24.450 Action Plan, which I should just note, I think 00:16:24.450 --> 00:16:27.289 is amazing because we were the first of the big 00:16:27.289 --> 00:16:29.950 four firm to invest in developing a Truth and 00:16:29.950 --> 00:16:32.690 Reconciliation Action Plan. Catherine, can you 00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:34.870 just give for our viewers and listeners a bit 00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:37.490 of background? Truth and Reconciliation Plan, 00:16:37.570 --> 00:16:40.639 just... Short summary again to reinforce where 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:44.700 that came from and why an enterprise such as 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:48.419 KPMG saw that was important to do. Thanks, Mark. 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.980 So truth and reconciliation plans or truth and 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:55.620 reconciliation action plans, otherwise known 00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:58.980 as reconciliation plans, have become significantly 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:04.059 more popular among the corporate Canadian landscape 00:17:04.059 --> 00:17:07.819 over the last... five or six years. Now, it's 00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:11.220 been 10 years in this country since the Truth 00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:14.500 and Reconciliation Commission released its report 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:18.079 and findings. And that was a significant national 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:22.240 undertaking that interviewed residential school 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.799 survivors, Indian residential school survivors, 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.700 Indian day school school survivors. and also 00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:31.920 focused on health institutions. And it uncovered, 00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:34.839 of course, I think, as most people know, the 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.539 atrocities that occurred in the residential school 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:41.859 system. It identified acts of colonization that 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:44.779 had a signal. All acts of colonization had a 00:17:44.779 --> 00:17:46.920 detrimental outcome, but in particular, as it 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.740 related to the schools. And with that, put forward 00:17:50.740 --> 00:17:53.960 a number of reports and calls to action. And 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:57.140 one of the subset of calls for action was for 00:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.539 the Canadian corporate sector to take action 00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:03.500 around employment and skills and training and 00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:07.380 awareness to ensure that Canadians were aware 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:10.799 of what happened. And I'm certain that I think, 00:18:10.819 --> 00:18:13.359 you know, Rob, you've probably spoken about this 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:17.029 and maybe others of your guests have that. residential 00:18:17.029 --> 00:18:20.849 school survivors and the legacy of residential 00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:24.269 schools is not a two or three hundred year old 00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:28.930 thing it for many of us our parents our grandparents 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:32.309 our aunties and uncles and cousins went in my 00:18:32.309 --> 00:18:35.309 family I have you know family members that went 00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:37.130 to residential school there are those of us that 00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:39.150 are the first gen that were not in residential 00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:43.890 school So I think that it's a very real legacy 00:18:43.890 --> 00:18:46.630 that we're living. It accounts for the trauma 00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:49.109 that we've seen in communities that, of course, 00:18:49.170 --> 00:18:52.210 addresses what I talked about earlier. It impacts 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:55.170 child welfare and incarceration and poverty. 00:18:55.390 --> 00:18:58.509 So it is not a long -ago problem. It is a very 00:18:58.509 --> 00:19:01.349 recent, recent thing that is still affecting 00:19:01.349 --> 00:19:04.730 our communities today. Corporate Canada, many 00:19:04.730 --> 00:19:07.430 organizations in corporate Canada either have 00:19:07.430 --> 00:19:11.710 or are taking action through developing of these 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:15.049 plans that help them to map out the mechanisms 00:19:15.049 --> 00:19:18.269 and the resources and the steps that they're 00:19:18.269 --> 00:19:20.910 going to take as a corporation or an institution 00:19:20.910 --> 00:19:24.990 to address it. So KPMG is an illustration. We 00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:27.650 focus on education of our internal staff. We 00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:30.809 have 10 ,000 people. It really moves the needle 00:19:30.809 --> 00:19:34.299 when you invest in your people understanding 00:19:34.299 --> 00:19:37.319 the legacy of residential schools, of colonization, 00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:40.839 of systemic racism, which, of course, affects 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:44.200 up until recently the ability of Indigenous communities 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.339 and institutions to even borrow money to invest 00:19:48.339 --> 00:19:50.660 in economic development. We're seeing a real 00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:54.039 seed change there. But institutionally, our Truth 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:56.700 and Reconciliation Plan is also focused on investing 00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:00.180 in youth. It's around employment and training 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:03.789 and hiring. and around retention and best practices 00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:06.750 of how we serve our clients. And we've done an 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.769 update report. We launched our initial report 00:20:09.769 --> 00:20:14.029 in 2022. We did an update report for 2023 and 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:17.650 2024, and we're into a refresh now for 2025. 00:20:17.829 --> 00:20:20.789 But we take our Truth and Reconciliation Action 00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:24.990 Plan very seriously, and it influenced the firm's... 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.660 steps around building out Indigenous advisory 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:31.240 services. So we focus on a number of different 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:33.740 areas. We work with Indigenous communities, we 00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:35.740 work with government, and we work with industry 00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:40.579 on a variety of topics and interests as it relates 00:20:40.579 --> 00:20:43.650 to working with Indigenous communities. area 00:20:43.650 --> 00:20:46.190 for us that has really been growing and really 00:20:46.190 --> 00:20:50.130 been focused is our team that works on equity 00:20:50.130 --> 00:20:52.650 and commercial structuring and financing and 00:20:52.650 --> 00:20:55.730 equity benefits and participation, helping Indigenous 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:58.230 communities to really maximize their opportunity. 00:20:58.609 --> 00:21:01.049 So there's kind of that link between the Truth 00:21:01.049 --> 00:21:03.569 and Reconciliation Action Plan and the work that 00:21:03.569 --> 00:21:06.009 we do at KPMG and the interconnection. And we're 00:21:06.009 --> 00:21:08.190 located across the country of a national model. 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.240 And these days, we're very focused on infrastructure 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.759 and capital projects and sustainability. But 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.900 we also have a division at KPMG within advisory 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:22.079 that focuses on health and child welfare and 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.180 social outcomes. So the social worker in me loves 00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:28.180 to be in both spaces here. I get to satisfy my 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:34.740 interest in all areas. KPMG published in this 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:37.609 year their private capital study. demonstrating 00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:41.009 that CIB -backed projects could unlock over $30 00:21:41.009 --> 00:21:43.210 billion in additional private investment across 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:46.430 Canada. How do you see Indigenous participation 00:21:46.430 --> 00:21:50.390 contributing to that? And what does that really 00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:52.970 mean for everyone? Yes, I mean, first of all, 00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:55.410 that report identified a couple of really critical 00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:58.630 things, right? Like this unprecedented need around 00:21:58.630 --> 00:22:02.089 certain aspects like connectivity and major projects 00:22:02.089 --> 00:22:06.190 and climate adaptation. identified that overwhelmingly 00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:11.910 business leaders were very positive and felt 00:22:11.910 --> 00:22:13.869 very strongly about the development of a national 00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:17.869 energy corridor, modernization of ports and the 00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:21.230 importance of modernizing supply chain. I think 00:22:21.230 --> 00:22:25.750 that when we look at building anything in Canada, 00:22:25.849 --> 00:22:28.390 it is going to require Indigenous participation. 00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:32.130 I think gone are the days that you're going to 00:22:32.130 --> 00:22:35.960 build. and move forward without Indigenous participation. 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.279 I think probably every guest you've had has probably 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.220 reinforced that message. It is a non -optional 00:22:42.220 --> 00:22:45.559 requirement. And in order to move a project forward, 00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:49.480 especially for those projects that want to be 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:53.200 a part of the Bill C -5, be on this project's 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.880 list under Bill C -5 and the expedition of these 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.900 expeditiousness of these permitting associated 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:03.109 with major projects. you are going to need Indigenous 00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:07.369 partners like never before. And I think that 00:23:07.369 --> 00:23:11.130 it will mean that in many cases, projects will 00:23:11.130 --> 00:23:14.609 not just have equity opportunities and the opportunity 00:23:14.609 --> 00:23:17.769 for equity participation might mean co -developed 00:23:17.769 --> 00:23:21.190 and co -led. And I think that this, you have 00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:23.170 to look at partnerships through the development 00:23:23.170 --> 00:23:27.079 and through the... the crystallization of what 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:30.000 that project is going to look like. So my sense 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:36.440 is that it is necessary for proponents to establish 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.680 early relationships, very much like grassroots 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.720 up instead of top down. And that is going to 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:49.059 require incredible skill set to work with communities 00:23:49.059 --> 00:23:51.700 early on in the process to have buy -in and how 00:23:51.700 --> 00:23:54.569 you're going to get that. is through not only 00:23:54.569 --> 00:23:56.430 addressing the environment and social issues, 00:23:56.569 --> 00:23:58.950 which are always critical for communities. The 00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:00.990 most important thing is around environment and 00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:03.869 social issues. But then following that is the 00:24:03.869 --> 00:24:06.369 economic participation pathway. Now, not all 00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:09.369 communities are going to be necessarily interested 00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:12.309 in equity. There may be certain projects or certain 00:24:12.309 --> 00:24:15.420 reasons why equity is not of interest. But that's 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:17.460 then going to look at other opportunities around 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:20.839 revenue sharing or benefits agreements, inclusion 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:26.000 in the supply chain. Very robust agreements are 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.059 going to be the requirements for the foundation 00:24:28.059 --> 00:24:30.579 for the future. And we're seeing that. And of 00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:32.640 course, we're seeing Indigenous -led projects 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.640 in this country, like Solisms and Cedar LNG and 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.299 Oneida Battery Storage, right? There are many, 00:24:38.380 --> 00:24:41.000 many illustrations and examples of that. So I 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:44.849 think the report... highlights the need for capital 00:24:44.849 --> 00:24:48.150 and capital investment. In order to get there, 00:24:48.230 --> 00:24:49.769 we're going to need Indigenous participation. 00:24:51.509 --> 00:24:55.750 And Catherine, has KPMG identified foreign investors 00:24:55.750 --> 00:24:59.089 as a potential source? Do you see a need for 00:24:59.089 --> 00:25:02.309 foreigners to get involved or can the Canadian 00:25:02.309 --> 00:25:06.990 capital markets provide what is needed, do you 00:25:06.990 --> 00:25:10.079 think? Well, this is where I take the social 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:13.299 worker disclaimer and say I'm not an expert in 00:25:13.299 --> 00:25:16.839 capital markets or finance. But I mean, my understanding 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:21.799 is that we are going to need investment and capital 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.339 investment from a global source in order to meet 00:25:25.339 --> 00:25:29.099 the moment. We have significant projects and 00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:31.640 interests and infrastructure dreams in this country. 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.400 It is a big country, not a lot of people. We're 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.920 going to need resources. from investors. And 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.380 we've seen an emergence in Canada over the last 00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:43.839 number of years. Many of your guests talked about 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:45.839 the Indigenous Loan Guarantee Programs and the 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.000 provincial programs and Cedar Leaf Capital and 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.160 other investment tools that are available, even 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.279 utilizing life insurance companies and other 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.460 mechanisms to help fund for ownership and participation, 00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:01.180 ensuring that the rate is appropriate so that 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:04.119 the return on investment is maximized for Indigenous 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.700 communities. But I think as a country, we're 00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:08.500 going to need those investors. And, you know, 00:26:08.539 --> 00:26:11.759 Rob, I remember when I was working in an ESG 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.420 capacity in a large company, I learned that our 00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:19.160 ESG evaluators were almost always from overseas. 00:26:19.220 --> 00:26:21.359 They would be from Scandinavia. That's quite 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.299 common. And the way that those ESG evaluators 00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:31.440 would determine our corporate scorecard was often 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:35.470 by like news clips. It was often by social media 00:26:35.470 --> 00:26:38.910 and news clips. There wasn't much, if any, on 00:26:38.910 --> 00:26:41.650 the ground interviews of Indigenous communities. 00:26:41.690 --> 00:26:44.329 So what would happen would be, you know, working 00:26:44.329 --> 00:26:46.470 for a pipeline company, you can imagine when 00:26:46.470 --> 00:26:49.210 you do a scan in social media, you do a scan 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:51.990 online, what you see is a negative response. 00:26:52.170 --> 00:26:56.809 You see old footage or you see perhaps curated 00:26:56.809 --> 00:27:00.809 footage, and that sends an international investor 00:27:00.809 --> 00:27:04.089 a message. that this is not a place to do business, 00:27:04.170 --> 00:27:06.309 this is not a good investment. And many of those 00:27:06.309 --> 00:27:09.910 messages talk about long -tenured projects a 00:27:09.910 --> 00:27:12.309 decade ago that were not necessarily successful 00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:15.509 because of challenges that were occurring. We've 00:27:15.509 --> 00:27:19.210 evolved since then. Indigenous communities, by 00:27:19.210 --> 00:27:21.829 and large, although not a monolith, are not opposed 00:27:21.829 --> 00:27:23.950 to development, but they are certainly opposed 00:27:23.950 --> 00:27:27.990 to development that was done from a top -down 00:27:27.990 --> 00:27:32.720 process that did not... respect their rights 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:35.500 or their interests and did not include them. 00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:38.740 So I think that we do need capital investors 00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:40.640 and we need those investors to know and appreciate 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:42.940 and understand that maybe what they see in the 00:27:42.940 --> 00:27:45.700 news is not necessarily the truth. And I think 00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:48.940 podcasts like this are helping to get information 00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:52.019 out in a world that is often full of information 00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:56.299 and not necessarily correct information. Yeah, 00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:59.299 this podcast and also our summit, our annual 00:27:59.900 --> 00:28:03.119 Indigenous Investment Summit in London. One of 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.460 the primary reasons for doing that was to change 00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:11.819 the message and the perception that foreign investors 00:28:11.819 --> 00:28:15.579 sometimes had, often had when it came to development 00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:21.119 in Canada, that frustrations from the past. So 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.160 the message is that things have changed. It sounds 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.160 like you're encouraged at least by where we are. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.019 today and how far we've come, say, in the last 00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:32.420 five to 10 years? I am so encouraged, and I'm 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:36.059 also very optimistic. I'm encouraged because, 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.460 you know, I think this is fascinating. So I think 00:28:39.460 --> 00:28:42.779 most Canadians would agree that the regulatory 00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:45.599 and legislative systems that have been in place 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.119 over the last eight to 10 years have been very 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.160 restrictive and very challenging. And as a result, 00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:55.940 we have not seen as many major projects move 00:28:55.940 --> 00:28:58.599 through the regulatory process because it was 00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:00.799 very cumbersome and very complex. And I think 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.539 many Indigenous communities would agree with 00:29:02.539 --> 00:29:07.359 that. And yet, interestingly enough, like maybe 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.460 even in spite of that or because of those complex 00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:14.660 systems, we've seen this incredible momentum 00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:18.059 in the marketplace of the Federal Indigenous 00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:21.349 Loan Guarantee Program over 20 years ago. I remember 00:29:21.349 --> 00:29:23.269 working with the federal government and Indigenous 00:29:23.269 --> 00:29:27.410 communities to get drilling rig loans. And we 00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:30.329 were successful. I think two or three of those 00:29:30.329 --> 00:29:32.630 loans, it was federally backstopped. It was a 00:29:32.630 --> 00:29:35.450 pilot. And we worked so hard to get that like 00:29:35.450 --> 00:29:38.890 early on with some Alberta nations. And that 00:29:38.890 --> 00:29:41.190 was like a huge success. But then it took the 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:43.289 next like 20 years to get to now the federal 00:29:43.289 --> 00:29:46.309 loan guarantee program. And I know that. organizations 00:29:46.309 --> 00:29:49.269 like the First Nations Major Projects Coalition 00:29:49.269 --> 00:29:53.109 and other groups advocated tirelessly, industry 00:29:53.109 --> 00:29:56.069 groups and industry leaders advocated for that 00:29:56.069 --> 00:29:58.049 program. We're seeing provincial loan guarantee 00:29:58.049 --> 00:30:01.069 programs and a number of other tools that are 00:30:01.069 --> 00:30:04.289 allowing, finally, Indigenous communities to 00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:07.180 be investors. creates that own source revenue, 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.180 which then you can invest back into education 00:30:10.180 --> 00:30:13.599 and health care and elders and schools and other 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:16.160 economic ventures. It creates wealth. Maybe we're 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.019 going to actually get to a place in our country 00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:21.059 and within our nations where we're going to be 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:23.559 managing wealth and not poverty for the first 00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:28.660 time. post -colonization. I'm very, very optimistic 00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:31.279 and excited by what I'm seeing. I think that 00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:35.039 if done right, Canada's on this incredible trajectory 00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:38.579 like we haven't seen in decades. We really can't 00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:41.380 squander that through not working with Indigenous 00:30:41.380 --> 00:30:44.480 communities, ending up in, you know... prolonged 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.720 and protracted legal processes and remedies court 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:50.720 is a blunt instrument, we will miss the window. 00:30:50.940 --> 00:30:54.279 So I'm very optimistic about what I'm seeing 00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:57.339 in industry. I have seen a sea change in industry. 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:01.400 I can even think three or four years ago, not 00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.460 that long ago, many corporations would have said, 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.240 we would never have Indigenous equity in our 00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:09.720 operating or brownfield asset. It would have 00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:13.029 to be greenfield. Many of those same companies 00:31:13.029 --> 00:31:15.990 have changed their tune and they're now working 00:31:15.990 --> 00:31:19.569 actively for investment into existing assets. 00:31:19.710 --> 00:31:22.829 So we're seeing equity not just on new projects, 00:31:22.890 --> 00:31:27.029 but on existing. Significant shift in our thought 00:31:27.029 --> 00:31:29.769 patterns and how we work together. We have a 00:31:29.769 --> 00:31:32.230 long ways to go. And Rob, you talked about community 00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:35.289 capacity. I think that is something else I would 00:31:35.289 --> 00:31:37.990 point out that as a proponent in this country, 00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:40.650 if you're going to build. You are going to have 00:31:40.650 --> 00:31:42.769 to invest not only in your internal teams, but 00:31:42.769 --> 00:31:45.170 in what the community needs, because community 00:31:45.170 --> 00:31:48.750 capacity continues to be a challenge, not for 00:31:48.750 --> 00:31:51.609 all nations, but certainly for many. So very 00:31:51.609 --> 00:31:54.849 optimistic with the right ingredients, we're 00:31:54.849 --> 00:31:58.450 going to have a great outcome. Well, I think 00:31:58.450 --> 00:32:01.710 you've defined this inflection point for Canada 00:32:01.710 --> 00:32:05.150 very well. That's our sense as well, and one 00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:06.970 of the reasons behind what we're doing, because 00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:09.069 we think this is a critical moment for the country. 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.859 And if we all work together and achieve, Canada 00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:17.660 will become an exceptional place for the Indigenous 00:32:17.660 --> 00:32:20.180 people and those who came after will have created 00:32:20.180 --> 00:32:22.940 something very unique in the North American continent 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:26.519 and perhaps others. Just coming back briefly, 00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:30.039 Catherine, you're part of a global firm, KPMG. 00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:33.000 I'm not sure how much interaction you have with 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:36.210 some colleagues internationally. But if you have 00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:38.150 had some interaction, what is their response 00:32:38.150 --> 00:32:41.269 when they hear about this Indigenous group in 00:32:41.269 --> 00:32:45.950 Canada moving things forward? How do you think 00:32:45.950 --> 00:32:51.609 globally KPMG has an awareness of that and reacts 00:32:51.609 --> 00:32:56.349 to that? I think one of the advantages of working 00:32:56.349 --> 00:33:00.650 in a global firm and a very global firm is the 00:33:00.650 --> 00:33:04.410 commitment to continual learning from our colleagues 00:33:04.410 --> 00:33:07.730 in other parts of the world. So I can think about 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:10.029 some of my colleagues in Australia, and we've 00:33:10.029 --> 00:33:13.210 actually had some recent exchanges where colleagues 00:33:13.210 --> 00:33:16.450 in Calgary were in Australia working with mining 00:33:16.450 --> 00:33:20.009 companies and identification of innovation around 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:23.019 mining and also clean energy. And there's some 00:33:23.019 --> 00:33:25.660 incredible learnings that we can garner from 00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:28.460 that and then them from us. I think there's going 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:31.359 to be more and more opportunity to learn globally 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.740 from one another. Indigenous communities work 00:33:35.740 --> 00:33:39.640 internationally. And I'm glad you actually asked 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.279 this question because lately I've been thinking 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.799 a lot about as a Canadian, as a Canadian firm, 00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:49.150 I and my peers. Thinking about this window that 00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:51.430 we have of opportunity, to your point, Mark, 00:33:51.569 --> 00:33:55.369 that if done right, is going to be the significant 00:33:55.369 --> 00:34:00.349 turning point for community involvement in projects, 00:34:00.410 --> 00:34:05.579 ownership, control, governance. And are we really 00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:07.799 looking enough at the international models? And 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.639 I don't know that we are. And I think that's 00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:11.860 a real call to action for me and my peers to 00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:15.019 connect with other places that are still on their 00:34:15.019 --> 00:34:17.440 journey, but we can learn from. And we need to 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:21.079 be able to move quickly. But what's the saying? 00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:25.460 Think slow, act fast. So I think we need to employ 00:34:25.460 --> 00:34:30.059 that. Catherine Pennington, the Director of Indigenous 00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:33.920 Advisory Services at KPMG, thanks again for your 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.639 time and your thoughtful comments this morning. 00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:41.139 Thank you. It was such a pleasure to be here 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:44.019 and what an enriching conversation and dialogue. 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.559 I look forward to continuing it. Thank you. It 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:49.739 was great to have you on our podcast, Catherine. 00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:52.900 We look forward to meeting you again in the near 00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:57.010 future. Thank you to Catherine Pennington for 00:34:57.010 --> 00:34:58.989 sharing your insights with us, and thank you 00:34:58.989 --> 00:35:02.449 for viewing and listening. Mark your calendars 00:35:02.449 --> 00:35:05.369 for the upcoming 2026 Summit, taking place on 00:35:05.369 --> 00:35:08.190 the 8th of April. Be sure to share, subscribe, 00:35:08.449 --> 00:35:10.710 and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel. 00:35:11.349 --> 00:35:13.809 Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. Until next 00:35:13.809 --> 00:35:14.150 time.