Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacken. My co -host Robert Brandt
and I are joined today by John -Paul Gladdu,
JP to many of his friends, board member of the
recently announced Indigenous Advisory Council
that's part of Mark Carney's push for building
Canada. He is also the principal of Mokwete.
JP discussed his unique background as an Indigenous
leader who bridges traditional Indigenous life
with modern corporate leadership. He shared his
journey from his Anishinaabe roots in Thunder
Bay, Ontario, to becoming president and CEO of
the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business,
where he developed programs to support Indigenous
entrepreneurs. He also spoke about his new role
on the Indigenous Advisory Council for the Major
Projects Office. He emphasized the importance
of direct engagement with Indigenous communities
and highlighted successful examples such as Enbridge's
collaborative work with the First Nations in
Alberta. He encourages overseas investors to
engage directly with Indigenous leaders to gain
a deeper understanding of ground -level perspectives
and highlight the transformative impact of Indigenous
leadership on not only Canada's resource development
sector, but the economy as a whole. Jean -Paul
or JP, glad to have you with us on Drumbeat.
It's really nice to see you again. Great to be
here. Thanks for the invitation. Yes, great to
have you with us, JP. So, JP Gladu, a well -known
name in Canada and to a number of overseas investors.
But why don't you tell us a little bit about
yourself, a little bit about who you are, your
background, where you are at the moment. As you
know, we're speaking to an audience who's overseas,
who's not as familiar as Canada, as some of us,
and probably don't know the best places to hunt
moose. Thanks for that. Actually, today I'm in
Coast Salish Territory in Vancouver. And, you
know, it takes as long to fly across our country
as it does to fly across the ocean to visit you
guys to kind of give you a perspective of how
big this country is. My name is, I go, my friends
call me JP. If I'm called John Paul, then that's
usually my dad yelling at me. So I know I'm in
trouble. So we'll stick with JP. I'm Anishinaabe,
which means Ojibwe in kind of English, and I'm
First Nation. I grew up in Thunder Bay. My dad
was a logger. My grandfather was a logger. My
other grandfather worked in the Trans -Canada
Pipelines building those. I became a forester
and then an MBA and then an Institute for Corporate
Directors. I'm a director on a number of publicly
traded boards. and an advisor to some global
companies like BHP, as an example, or Domtar,
Global Forest Products Company. I grew up, you
know, these aren't my typical hunting clothes,
as you might imagine, but I grew up in the bush.
And there's a saying in Canada, at least in our
community as Indigenous people, walking two worlds.
And that means that, you know, I spend a lot
of time on the land, but I also spend a lot of
time in boardrooms in the cities. I prefer to
be on the land with the animals most of the time
because they're more predictable. But, you know,
I really love the dual role of my life. One of
the proudest moments, actually, last year, my
daughter was 20. She's 21 now. She harvested
her first moose, just the two of us. One shot,
she got her done, and she was so incredibly impressive.
She field dressed that moose. I mean, I helped,
but she did 80 % of the work and she skinned.
And then this moment, I was overcome with just
pure pride and joy and love because when my dad
came to see us, I might get a little emotional
here, to see the moose. And for me to carry that
knowledge that my father, who's a chief of my
community. Who I had the pleasure of meeting
earlier. You did, Rob. You did. JP. You did.
Wow, what a great guy. And so you get a sense
of the presence that that man has as a 73 -year
-old leader himself. And for him and my daughter
to be butchering a moose together. And I was
just the rapper, not like a song rapper, but
like the guy rapping the moose meat. And then
kind of looking around about the economic activity
that we've had in our community. I've been a
strong advocate for the inclusion of Indigenous
people in the natural resources. And I used to
be the president and CEO of the Canadian Council
for Indigenous Business for nearly eight years.
You know, I sit on, I mentioned a board, Suncor,
Canada's largest integrated oil and gas company,
superior plus propane across the country and
the States. And, you know, I'm just so grateful
to be in the position that I'm in to be able
to be at the table like folks like yourself,
having these deep conversations, because now
is the time in Canada. Now is the time of the
Indigenous position, the Indigenous. thoughts,
the Indigenous leadership. And, you know, I'm
sure we'll get into some conversation about what
that looks like, because it is transforming our
country. They're not without challenges, but
certainly for your listeners over the pond, I
think. We really need to pay attention to this
issue because you're going to get it unfiltered
from Indigenous people rather than just listening
to investors or mining companies or energy companies.
You need to listen to the people that are actually
on the ground every day. So I really appreciate
you gentlemen taking the time with me. Our pleasure,
JP. And I don't know where to begin, except maybe
you mentioned the Canadian Council for Indigenous
Business you were president, CEO for. was it
eight years? How did you end up there? Talk a
little bit about your time at CCIB. I'm a proud
member of the board of directors today, and I've
admired the growth and the way the CCIB has evolved
over the years. And you were a big part of that.
Thanks. Thanks. I appreciate that, Rob. He's
one of those things, you know, I worked for my
own First Nation. I worked across the country.
doing a lot of forestry, doing energy projects.
I was actually working for my own First Nation
at the time. I had just finished my executive
MBA at Queens, and the role came up. And I knew
who Clint Davis was. Actually, I was friends
with his wife. And I hope he gets to see this,
him and Hillary, because I like his wife better.
You know, Clint is an incredible leader in Canada.
You know, he leads Cedar Leaf Financial. Like,
he's just this incredible nook from the north,
Harvard grad. He was my predecessor. And, you
know, when I heard the opportunity came up, I
threw my name in the hat right away. Because
I'm a huge believer of the importance of entrepreneurs,
no matter what your background is. And in Canada,
I know there is this budding emergence of Indigenous
entrepreneurs. You've got to understand that,
you know, it wasn't too long ago that, you know,
First Nations people didn't have the right to
vote. You know, women had the right to vote before
we did. We weren't allowed to leave our reserves.
We weren't allowed to get an education. My own
community in 1958, our land, you know, my dad
might have mentioned this to you, Rob. Our reserve
was burnt to the ground in 1958 by the government
and we were forcibly removed. And, you know,
all these atrocities that are happening, but
it's business as the equalizer. It doesn't matter.
You're in the trenches together. It doesn't matter
the color of your skin or your background. You're
doing business together. You're failing together.
You're succeeding together. And those relationships
carry forward. So I'm really passionate about
it, as you can probably tell, the Indigenous
entrepreneurs. So the opportunity to join the
CCIB and to lead that organization for nearly
eight years with the great board of directors
was just incredible. I think the proudest moment.
developed and started a number of programs there.
But the one that really stood out for me and
the team, we led the best research in the world
because without solid data, it's hard to make
decisions about where you're going to go if you
don't have good data to guide you. So that was
really impressive what the team was able to do.
And then as well as, you know, the procurement
targets, we started the supply change. supply
chain opportunities, procurement champions, and,
you know, getting the government to commit to
a 5 % target, getting the economy, the business
players at the table to start embracing the way
Indigenous entrepreneurs and communities are
contributing to the economy, because it's their
business that it's the great equalizer, I think.
You know, I know my succession outside with a
bull continuing. I know she reports to you, Rob.
So, you know, she worked for, I hired her. I
had her for a year as my chief operating officer,
my second in command. And I looked at her and
I said, Tabitha, I said, I'm not long for this
job for too much longer. And, you know, it's
not my decision, but I see you as the next leader.
I think she's remarkable. And I know the organization
continues to do great work. So, you know, extraordinary
time in my life. I hold it near and dear to my
heart. Wow. I don't know where we should start
from that. Rob, do you have a specific direction
or should we drop into a hot issue? Well, the
most recent news, I guess, in the life of J .P.
Gladue is this appointment to the Indigenous
Advisory Council that will advise the brand new
Major Projects Office and the new initiative
of the federal government to try and move major
projects, select major projects forward faster,
but with meaningful Indigenous participation.
and so as part of that new structure an advisory
council has been established with representation
as we've discussed from first nations inui metis
and jp is on that list i don't think we've spoken
to anybody yet who is who is on that council
but uh so let's get into that jp what a what
an honor it must have been to be appointed and
how do you see I don't think we've seen terms
of reference yet, but what exactly do you see
your role and the council's role as? Yeah, thanks.
Thanks, Rob. It was a huge honor. I got a call
on a Saturday. Interestingly, my daughter was
in town and we were just getting ready to go
out moose hunting, just the father -daughter
team again. And I didn't say yes right away,
but my inclination was to say yes. You know,
I had to, of course. be mindful of conflicts
because I'm on the Suncor board and Pathways
Project is one of those projects that have been
listed in the 32 so far. And of course, there's
many ways to manage a conflict. But I also checked
in with my own team at Mokwete, our firm. So
everybody was like, are you crazy? Say yes. This
is an incredible opportunity. And I said, no,
I know it's an incredible opportunity. Is this
something that I've got the bandwidth for? Because
it's pretty busy. Because you've got to commit.
And when you commit, you've got to commit. So
my schedule in the future might be shifting a
little bit to make room for this important conversation.
The idea is to meet with the other 10 Indigenous
leaders. And I know about six of the others on
there. And I know of the others as well. So I've
had longtime relationships with these leaders.
It was quite striking, actually, when I looked
at when the list did come out after I said, you
don't know who you're going to the table with.
And the list came out and I'm kind of an outlier
here because these are strong political leaders,
but they're also strong business. leaders, which
is great. I'm very hopeful. So you're absolutely
right, Rob. There isn't a terms of reference
that has been developed for this. We're still
working through it. I had a great call with Don
Farrell, who's the leader, the CEO of the major
projects office. So we had a call the other day.
We're really excited about it. Can you maybe
just step back, because all of us associated
with Canada are very clear about what's going
on, and just again reinforce this came result
from Bill C -5 and what the major projects office,
because you're mentioning the leader of the offices
in Calgary, and just step back to set the frame
and complement what Rob's already said, because
it is important. It is critically important.
You know, we talk about Bill C -5 and that's
the federal legislation around a one -stop shop,
so to speak, on getting major projects developed
in Canada, major infrastructure projects. When
that came out, First Nations particularly were
very concerned. um about this the questions around
is this going are they trying to skip around
our rights so everybody from outside of canada
needs to understand our constitutionally protected
rights in section 32 of our constitution is is
very strong We've been fighting for our rights
for decades. And at the end of the day, quite
frankly, projects don't get developed in the
country without meaningful engagement and participation.
And we can get into that, what that looks like
with communities. Communities have a strong say
in the way that resource development and anything
that impacts our lands and our rights. Get done.
So when Bill C -5 came out, it was certainly
a rocky start. A lot of pushback from communities
across the country. But also, there are a lot
of communities that have seen great success.
And we can talk about this. Billions of dollars
of projects have been developed in concert with
Indigenous communities, First Nations. Métis
and Inuit, and those three groups make up the
Indigenous population in Canada, First Nations
being the largest portion of that group and very
strong rights. So there have been multi -billion
dollar deals already done in this country. So
we've got many of the ingredients of how this
is done. And certainly there are examples and
there are communities that are ready to go now
and are excited about this major projects office,
which has been established to help set up. the
thinking, the practices, the relationships, cultural
comes to mind as well on how we're going to succeed
together. And so this major projects office,
which is held, it's a prime minister appointment,
Dawn Farrell, who's an extraordinary leader.
Her last big job was the Trans Mountain. um pipeline
and you know getting that done with communities
so she's a woman that knows how to get work done
and so this indigenous advisory council is part
of the major projects office to help advise her
and you know essentially the prime minister on
how to best move forward in in establishing projects
and getting them done. Again, terms of reference
are still coming out. And by no means do we have
any decision -making power. Rob, you had mentioned
about approving. We don't approve. We're not
going to approve. We're not going to veto. We're
there to advise. And what I love about this group
of leaders is that we all don't think the same.
We come from different... geographic regions,
different socioeconomic backgrounds across this
country. Every province and territory operate
a little differently. So it's going to be a colorful
conversation. But I know the big brains with
tons of experience at the table are going to
be a huge asset to the Major Projects Office
to help. understand how we're going to move projects
forward. And, you know, the first five have come
out to mining. We've got Kitimat 2 .0. We've
got Darlington SMRs and then the port in Montreal.
So, you know, a great slate of projects. I think
these ones have got a lot of support. We're going
to weigh in and we're going to help advise. It's
going to be interesting. I will say this as well.
Since the appointment got announced last week,
my phone has blown up. emails, calls from chiefs,
leaders, allies. And I tell you, it's always
the silent majority of nations that are pretty
excited about these types of activities. And
there's a very vocal minority, I believe, again,
this is just my own opinion, that definitely
seem to soak up a lot of the oxygen in the room.
But both are really important. This is important
that we have the discourse as well to make sure
that we get things right. It's going to be an
extraordinary time. It's a two -year appointment,
and I'm grateful to be at the table. Yeah, my
take on the Indigenous communities' reaction
is very similar, JP. There's some valid concerns
about process and how the initiative was kicked
off, but the business people and the people I
speak to within Indigenous communities want to
get on with testing. this new initiative and
testing whether the government is genuine about
their intentions. And what I've said to people
is, even if there were flaws in the process,
even if the legislation could have been more
explicit or better, the fact is Indigenous people
have so much leverage now. These projects cannot
get done in our territories without a meaningful...
And so we've got an opportunity to shape what
that involvement looks like now. Yeah, and if
I can build on that involvement, it's incredible.
In Canada in the last, I guess the first, I guess
Ontario had a loan guarantee for the energy programs
years ago, but it wasn't very well known and
well accessed. um they've since bolstered that
program but the one that's been most successful
in the country now is the alberta indigenous
opportunities corp run by my friend channa and
you know channa is a great leader and you know
hundreds of millions of dollars have been um
allocated to nations to to be part of major projects.
And it's extraordinary. Now the federal government
has a $10 billion loan guarantee program to support
Indigenous communities' equity in projects. You
know, it's sometimes said, you know, equity to
date is kind of the purest form of consent. And
I know it's a little bit of a controversial statement.
But I believe that, you know, if communities
are going to buy into projects, it is a strong
statement saying, OK, we're going to buy in.
But it doesn't negate the, you know, the really
important part about looking after the land as
we develop. I told you my background. I tell
you, if somebody wants to mess around with my
moose hunting areas or territories that are important
to our elders, you know, we're going to be in
for a fight. It's just we're not going to give
up our thousands of years of knowledge and experience
and importance and connection to the land. But
that doesn't mean that we can't go ahead and
develop parts of the land as well. We've got
hydro facility projects in my communities. We've
got forestry. We manage 100 % of the forest.
We've got biogasification projects. There's more
energy projects, dams coming. You know, we're
open to those opportunities. But the other thing,
like what this looks like is... How many jobs
are we? What kind of training activities? What
are the procurement opportunities? Back to, you
know, the importance of supply chain and Indigenous
entrepreneurs and that. What are we going to
do to empower our communities? Because we're
not going to sit on the outside anymore. Long
gone are the days that a company is going to
come in, engineer the heck out of a project,
come and go, what do you think, First Nations?
We're going to say out the back door, you did
not consult us. You did not engage us at the
beginning. You have no idea if this makes sense
to our community. Get out of here. But if they're
going to come to the table at the front end,
and that's a big part of this process to go,
let's make, let's figure this out together. What,
how do you want to participate? And so, you know,
the shaping of our future now is inclusive of
Indigenous people. And that excites me. So do
you think with a major projects office, and the
first five projects have been announced, they're
more than shovel ready. Some are. you know, well
on their way. Is it giving a focus on these big
projects? Because whether the major projects
office is set up or not, the Indigenous people
have their rights and how you've articulated
want to develop is going to happen. What is the
benefit for the First Nations and Inuit and the
Métis with this focus on these big projects for
the country? Well, that's a great question. And
I think like any It doesn't matter what we talk
about as human beings. If we don't see ourselves
in an environment, we're going to be very cautious
to approach because we don't know if it's possible
because it hasn't been achieved yet. And so it's
hard to understand how to create those opportunities
without seeing ourselves there. In Canada, there
are many opportunities or success examples where
First Nations, Métis and Inuit are fully in the
mix. Owning projects, land oversight, jobs, strong
procurement, billions of dollars being spent
on Indigenous entrepreneurs. And so having these
projects that are more shovel -ready than others
to inspire. Indigenous communities to go, hey,
we are at the table and we are benefiting. That's
really important. Let me take Enbridge for an
example. I can't say enough great things about
what they've been achieving lately, both in Alberta
with the 24 nations and Métis 26 nations in Alberta
on a billion plus dollar project. Mind you, the
infrastructure was already in place. But again,
it shows the willingness of Enbridge to walk.
In the most recent one, the 37 nations in Alberta,
pre -existing but also future opportunities for
ownership and infrastructure, again, shows that
this is possible. And to get 37, I believe it's
37 First Nations on the table with a pipeline
in BC, I mean, that's incredible. So we need
to be able to showcase these opportunities. Or,
you know, Chief Terence Paul is on this advisory
committee as well. And I've known the chief for
many years. We celebrate him at CCAB and an extraordinary
leader. You know, Canadians and I hope folks
over the pond as well in Europe understand that
just because First Nations people. are going
to start asserting our rights into major projects
and the way that we do development on the land,
it doesn't mean that things are going to stop.
It actually means we're going to do things better.
It actually means that we're going to have better
land oversight because these are our territories.
We're going to make sure it's done to the highest
standards. We're going to try to protect our
water as much as we possibly can and the lands
and the air. So we need to create that space
and place where this is possible. And it is possible
because we've done it. We just need more of it
and we need to get better at it. Hear, hear.
We've talked about some of your board roles and
advisory committee roles, but what are you doing
on a day -to -day basis? Tell us a little bit
about your Immaculate Consulting. Yeah, thanks,
Rob. Well, you know, it was interesting. I think
I shared the story with you. You know, when I
left CCAB, the Canadian Council for what's now
known as Indigenous Business, my good friends,
Dave and Nicole Boucher, who are an incredible
power couple in northern Alberta, they're in
the oil site services. At the time, they offered
me their CEO role for a family business. At the
time, it was a $150 million company and over
a thousand employees. And I was really excited
about it. march 2020 and we know what was going
on oil tanked and and covet exploded and nicole
and i had to have the tough conversation um about
um not being able to take me on because they
were laying off 500 people the next monday uh
it was a tough time for me as you might imagine
all of a sudden i've got no job my apartment
was packed up and i had nowhere to live and i
had a little suitcase to my name going holy smokes
what am i gonna do now it was Also a time to
kind of reset what I wanted to do next. And so,
you know, the Suncor board came calling. And,
you know, a few other passion projects started
coming. I said, oh, this is great. Maybe I'll
set up my own firm. It was just a sole proprietorship
at the time. And then my longtime friend and
who I worked with at CCAB said, let's start a
company. Like, let's incorporate your company.
And I said, Max, Max Goudreau is our managing
partner. as a careful jasper because i've been
saying no to a lot of things i have a nice comfortable
life balance right now and uh i didn't listen
and he didn't listen now we're we we are in three
and a half years since we've incorporated a moquete
it means a bear heart my my my indigenous name
um We've had over 100 clients. We've got over
25 people in our organization across the country.
We do global work. And it's been a remarkable
journey so far. We've got a great team across
the country. We're working in pretty much every
sector that you can think of. From mining, oil,
gas, forestry, finance, Toronto Pearson Airport.
We even did some work for A &W and I tried to
negotiate a lifetime supply of teen burgers,
but they wouldn't go for that. Oh, that's too
bad. I wouldn't like to hear about that. A &W
can't beat it. But, you know, the roles that
I've got right now, it keeps me pretty busy.
And that's why Max is the managing partner and
we're growing the company. But, you know, my
board role is at the Institute for Corporate
Directors, Superior Suncor, and then I'm advising
BHP. and Domtar, and now the major projects office,
doesn't leave me a whole lot of time to really
dig in too deep. But I do have line of sight
on our big projects in Mokote, one of our big
clients right now, Farm Credit Canada, great
people in Saskatchewan, looking to help Indigenous
communities across the country. And I really
love that project. I know the team's doing great
work on it, and I love being a part of that.
And, you know, we help facilitate and support
events. So our Spark event in Calgary, it's a
10 of First Nation in November. So it's the first
inaugural. We're hosting that event. We'd love
to have you guys there. Come check it out. We've
got, you know, Rich Kruger, CEO of Suncor. We've
got Goldie Heider. We've got the ask out to Minister
Hodgson and others. We hope that they're able
to come. But it's a great list. So it's about
convening leadership. It's about convening ideas.
It's about convening practices to go forward.
Now, as you get the sense, now is the time. The
change that's happened in the last 10 years has
been extraordinary. The next 10 years are going
to be monumental. It is shifting so fast, and
we don't have a lot of time as a country to get
it right. And so all hands on deck. Yes, very
well articulated. I think there is a huge challenge.
What do you say for Canada, Indigenous and non
-Indigenous? What do you say to foreign investors?
You know, because their perception of the world,
all our perceptions, the world we knew is no
longer exists, right? We're now on our way to
something new. Where do you see Canada in this
new future of the Western alliance of what remains
with it or like -minded countries? That's a great
question. It's a big question. I was part of
the very first group to go over to the UK. Chief
Derek Epp, Chief David Jimmy, myself, and a couple
of other leaders. I remember that vision well.
It was great. It was the first time that an indigenous
-led group came to the UK to talk to investors
and the miners. And it goes back to my thoughts
on data. You have to have the most current, robust
data so that you can make decisions. Remember
the line the other morning? Capital is lazy.
Capital doesn't want uncertainty. Capital wants
strong returns with certainty. That's what investors
are looking for. And so you need to connect with
Indigenous communities. And thank you very much
for having me on your show here to help communicate
some of the opportunities and challenges to your
investors. In Canada, we are at a turning point,
I believe. We're at this inflection point where
the Indigenous nations, and I think industry
gets it, government gets it, where in the past,
let me just kind of paint the picture before
where government was very paternalistic. We know
best for First Nations. That's gone out the door.
Where industry builds projects without us, that's
gone out the door. Where we're... have um still
some trust to trust issues um there's a saying
building business at the speed of trust here
with nations um with first nations because we're
our our immediate reaction to many things is
to just go no stop um that's starting to shift
um we've bitten into every green apple and it's
been sour now we're starting to like we've got
to kind of put that Okay, this next app we're
going to bite into is green, but it's going to
be a sweet one. And so when we come to the table
now as a country, the mindset has to shift. Governments
need to see, and they are, I believe, the federal
government starting to see our First Nations
as nations. So these are government to government
and how we're going to exist together. Industry
knows now. that they've got to work with our
nations and our companies to help build projects
or they don't get done. I mean, Rob, you conceded
that as well. Not that conceded is the right
word, but you fully understand that. And then
nations, again, we've got to come to the table
with a new mindset that, and that's the importance
of why having these success projects in the past
and where we are now. So that we can see that
that next apple we bite into is going to be a
sweet one. And so to your investors, we're at
that precipice now. I think Canada, Canadians,
that tripartite, you know, the government industry
and First Nations and Indigenous communities
understand the environment shifted. And we've
got to get this done. There's no more guessing
anymore. We know what the challenge is. And now
we've got to apply our best people and knowledge
and practice to get it done. It's a very important
point to make, especially to international investors
or potential joint venture partners who may have
had some experience in the past trying to get
things done in Canada. uh and to have a perception
that indigenous people are against all development
and so you can't get things done in canada uh
and they for those who aren't as in tune with
the changes over the last five to ten years in
canada i think they would be shocked at uh how
the landscape has changed and you've described
it well things are getting done now there's some
great success stories to point to we do the annual
investment summit focused on Canadian projects
with Indigenous people and try to highlight some
of those investment opportunities as well as
to guide investors about how to go about engaging
and getting involved. Absolutely. JP, absolutely
wonderful to have another in -depth conversation
with you. I appreciate the perspective you bring
as a business leader. as well as an Indigenous
leader and your comments on the future of the
country and the potential it offers for all Canadians,
Indigenous and non -Indigenous. Thank you very
much for joining us today. Yeah, and JP, just
echo that. Always a pleasure to catch up with
you and get your insights and thoughts. I really
enjoyed our conversation. And Yao and Goa for
taking the time. Miigwech I really appreciate
the opportunity guys and to any of your subscribers
please don't be shy reach out to Canadian Indigenous
leaders to learn more and you know absolutely
there's a great event coming up in the spring
next year I'm going to be there so engage with
us don't be afraid to get your information right
from the source Canadian government will give
you one view and industry will give you another.
But again, good data helps you make good decisions.
So don't be afraid to reach out. Absolutely.
Thank you very much. Thanks, guys. Thank you
to JP Gladu for sharing his insights with us.
And thank you for viewing and listening. Mark
your calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit taking
place on the 8th of April. Be sure to share,
subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite
podcast channel. Thanks for listening to Drum
Beats. Until next time.