WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.710 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.910 --> 00:00:15.509 I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brant 00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:17.949 and I are joined today by Bern Christmas, KC, 00:00:18.170 --> 00:00:20.929 Principal at Bern Christmas Law Group, BCLG. 00:00:21.820 --> 00:00:24.219 We discuss his 30 -year journey as a practicing 00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:27.039 Mi 'kmaq lawyer, his role in shaping partnerships 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:29.980 between Indigenous communities and the major 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:33.299 projects that they have been involved with. Byrne 00:00:33.299 --> 00:00:36.119 represents First Nations embarking on massive 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.740 initiatives across the country, identified by 00:00:38.740 --> 00:00:41.179 Prime Minister Mark Carney's focal points for 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:44.560 Canada's current and future development. Some 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:46.340 of these projects include the Ring of Fire and 00:00:46.340 --> 00:00:48.939 the Port of Churchill. Most recently, he has 00:00:48.939 --> 00:00:51.479 taken on the role of lead negotiator for four 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:54.299 First Nations in southern Ontario, Alderville, 00:00:54.420 --> 00:00:56.780 Hiawatha, Curve Lake, and the Mississaugas of 00:00:56.780 --> 00:01:00.039 Scugog, who are all in negotiations with Ontario 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:02.799 Power Generation on transmission lines and nuclear 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:08.200 projects valued at around $100 billion. Burned 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:12.400 Christmas. Old friend, thanks for joining us 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:15.640 on Drumbeats. Likewise. I'm glad to be here today. 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:20.439 Pleasure to have you with us. So, Bernd, can 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:23.200 you tell us a little bit about yourself for our 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.620 UK and continental European investor audience? 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:31.140 Give us a little bit of context about the man, 00:01:31.260 --> 00:01:34.719 what you've achieved so far in your life and 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:40.739 what you're focused on now. OK, yeah, sure. Well, 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:45.879 first, I'm joining you here on this. This program 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:50.579 from Queenston, which is in Ontario, southern 00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:55.739 Ontario. And for the UK history buffs, this is 00:01:55.739 --> 00:01:59.620 where the battle of, or sorry, the War of 1812 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:02.040 with General Brock occurred between the British 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:05.219 forces and the Americans. And it's the first 00:02:05.219 --> 00:02:07.560 time, I guess, and the only time you can say 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.740 that the Americans were pushed back, so to speak, 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:17.629 by Canada. which was once British territory. 00:02:18.110 --> 00:02:23.509 And it was done so with the aid of, obviously, 00:02:23.509 --> 00:02:27.490 the Indigenous forces in the area, mostly the 00:02:27.490 --> 00:02:33.469 Iroquois Confederacy of First Nations. Yeah, 00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:37.110 myself, I'm Mi 'kmaq from the east coast of Canada 00:02:37.110 --> 00:02:41.710 in Nova Scotia, more specifically, member to 00:02:41.710 --> 00:02:47.419 First Nation. It's one of 36 communities that 00:02:47.419 --> 00:02:53.520 make up the nation itself. And I'm also a practicing 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:58.620 lawyer. I've been doing so for, oh my gosh, I 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:00.300 can't believe I'm going to say this, almost 30 00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:05.819 years. A few gray hairs have come in and I've 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:09.900 quite enjoyed myself by focusing on... My community, 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.479 meaning the Indigenous community in general here 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:16.479 in North America, and a few times in other parts 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.840 of the world, but focusing mostly on deal -making 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:26.819 between private sector and Indigenous nations 00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:30.539 that want to do some kind of business. Yeah, 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:34.180 so I've been also, Mark and Rob, I've also been 00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:39.479 CEO of... A few prominent First Nations, including 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.020 myself, member to First Nation in Mi 'kmaq territory, 00:03:43.219 --> 00:03:47.919 and then up in Treaty 8 with Fort Mackay as their 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:50.800 CEO of their oil sands development. And then 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:55.020 most recently, I finished a spot with the Squamish 00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:57.319 Nation in the west coast of Canada, in British 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.879 Columbia, in Vancouver specifically, and was 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:05.969 their CEO. And I had a few projects that I got 00:04:05.969 --> 00:04:09.150 going there. One is the Sanok real estate development, 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:13.949 11 towers that we got underway and is currently 00:04:13.949 --> 00:04:18.449 under construction. 52 stories, all 11 of them, 00:04:18.509 --> 00:04:22.009 I think. Well, actually 10 of them. And there's 00:04:22.009 --> 00:04:26.509 an LNG facility that we got rolling with wood 00:04:26.509 --> 00:04:32.889 fiber LNG. refocus their forestry operations 00:04:32.889 --> 00:04:37.029 that they have there. And then really up to date, 00:04:37.149 --> 00:04:42.829 what I'm doing now is I represent quite a few 00:04:42.829 --> 00:04:47.870 First Nations that are embarking upon some pretty 00:04:47.870 --> 00:04:51.649 massive projects in the country that actually 00:04:51.649 --> 00:04:55.730 have been named by the Prime Minister of Canada 00:04:55.730 --> 00:05:00.759 as being the A focal point, I guess, for Canada's 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.339 economy. One is the Churchill, Port Churchill, 00:05:04.699 --> 00:05:08.100 heavily involved in that. Another is the Ring 00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:11.759 of Fire with Martin Falls is my client there 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:15.319 that is trying to make sure that not only the 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:18.579 business aspirations, but the, we'll call it 00:05:18.579 --> 00:05:21.720 the social and cultural environmental aspirations 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:29.490 are maintained as well. The Haida Nation is another 00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:33.410 client of mine who just went under a self -government 00:05:33.410 --> 00:05:36.850 agreement for what is called, formerly called 00:05:36.850 --> 00:05:41.610 the Queen Charlotte Islands off of the coast 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:44.329 of British Columbia. And it's the traditional 00:05:44.329 --> 00:05:47.949 territory of the Haida Nation and it's called 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:50.870 Haida Gwaii. And we've got quite a few projects 00:05:50.870 --> 00:05:55.370 on the go there with, and one being with Asian. 00:05:56.009 --> 00:06:00.170 business opportunities. And actually two more 00:06:00.170 --> 00:06:03.629 involved in negotiations with companies like 00:06:03.629 --> 00:06:07.230 Valet and Glencore, the big mining giants in 00:06:07.230 --> 00:06:11.709 the Sudbury Basin. My client there is the Tigamigishing 00:06:11.709 --> 00:06:18.329 Anishinaabe, and those companies have collectively, 00:06:18.610 --> 00:06:23.899 you know. extracted over 500 billion of nickel 00:06:23.899 --> 00:06:27.980 and cobalt and other ores from their traditional 00:06:27.980 --> 00:06:29.600 territories. And of course, we're trying to get 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.180 now an impact benefit agreement to make that 00:06:33.180 --> 00:06:37.199 community whole. And then lastly, and most recently, 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:40.360 just hot off the presses, getting involved with 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.240 four first stations here in Southern Ontario, 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:51.449 Alderville, Hiawatha, Curve Lake. And the Mississaugas 00:06:51.449 --> 00:06:55.870 of Scugog become their lead negotiator in dealing 00:06:55.870 --> 00:06:58.290 with the Ontario power generation in Ontario 00:06:58.290 --> 00:07:02.189 as they develop their transmission lines and 00:07:02.189 --> 00:07:07.009 nuclear capabilities for the province. And we're 00:07:07.009 --> 00:07:10.810 looking at that opportunity. I guess those deals 00:07:10.810 --> 00:07:13.329 are in the $100 billion range there. So it's 00:07:13.329 --> 00:07:18.430 quite significant. that they've decided to get 00:07:18.430 --> 00:07:23.129 focused and trying to get as much opportunity 00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:26.990 as they can on those particular projects. So, 00:07:27.029 --> 00:07:32.629 Mark, that's kind of a quick elevator speech. 00:07:35.189 --> 00:07:38.430 That's quite a broad spectrum, Bernd, and I know 00:07:38.430 --> 00:07:42.290 of a couple of things you left out, but I want 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:44.050 to take you back a little bit because you and 00:07:44.050 --> 00:07:48.230 I went to law school together. and that was more 00:07:48.230 --> 00:07:52.790 than 30 years ago when we graduated. The day 00:07:52.790 --> 00:07:55.370 we graduated, my family who were there still 00:07:55.370 --> 00:07:59.750 remember that ceremony, not necessarily because 00:07:59.750 --> 00:08:01.990 I was there and graduating, but it was a really 00:08:01.990 --> 00:08:05.370 emotional day for all graduates, but in particular, 00:08:05.550 --> 00:08:09.029 especially you. Do you want to talk about that 00:08:09.029 --> 00:08:15.470 day? Oh, yeah, yeah. That was... That was truly 00:08:15.470 --> 00:08:19.649 an amazing day, obviously, personally for myself. 00:08:21.069 --> 00:08:25.790 Like you, Rob, my family was there too. But I 00:08:25.790 --> 00:08:31.649 was pleasantly surprised by the fact that I was 00:08:31.649 --> 00:08:35.429 honoured by my nation, the Mi 'kmaq Nation, with 00:08:35.429 --> 00:08:39.110 the representative of the traditional government, 00:08:39.289 --> 00:08:43.409 the Grand Council, Captain Alec. Denny came and 00:08:43.409 --> 00:08:47.009 attended and actually handed me my, uh, my degree. 00:08:47.950 --> 00:08:50.850 And, uh, the reason he did that was because, 00:08:50.909 --> 00:08:54.889 uh, I was the first, uh, Mi 'kmaq to, uh, ever 00:08:54.889 --> 00:08:57.470 become a lawyer in, uh, or, uh, graduated from 00:08:57.470 --> 00:09:00.049 a law school and then eventually became a lawyer, 00:09:00.110 --> 00:09:04.110 uh, for my, my people. So yeah, it's still a 00:09:04.110 --> 00:09:06.970 fond memories and actually, I just, you know, 00:09:06.970 --> 00:09:09.090 I don't know why I got kind of emotional on that. 00:09:09.129 --> 00:09:13.059 Cause I remember that day and I was, uh, I even 00:09:13.059 --> 00:09:18.399 leaned up against the Grand Captain Denny because 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:23.879 I was so overwhelmed with the joy and the honor 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:26.940 I was given. Yeah, it was a pretty amazing time. 00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:31.080 Yeah, that was Osgoode Hall Law School at York 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.279 University. And a special day for all of us, 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:41.039 but particularly for you and memorable. I wanted 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.659 people to appreciate what a special day that 00:09:43.659 --> 00:09:46.960 was. Yeah, thanks, Rob. I appreciate that. Yeah, 00:09:47.019 --> 00:09:50.679 that was something. Very special. And, you know, 00:09:50.700 --> 00:09:54.299 again, for our audience to think as, you know, 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.659 both Berndt yourself and Rob are the first in 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:01.720 your families, perhaps even to have a university 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.759 degree. But before then, Indigenous people could 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.159 not practice law. So how could anyone defend 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:11.789 their rights? Right. When you think about that, 00:10:11.929 --> 00:10:15.009 it's part of the reason why there's such a transformation 00:10:15.009 --> 00:10:18.629 today, because people such as yourselves are 00:10:18.629 --> 00:10:21.610 now in positions of power, authority, influence 00:10:21.610 --> 00:10:25.889 and experience to help shape Canada as it is 00:10:25.889 --> 00:10:28.309 supposed to be based on the treaties with the 00:10:28.309 --> 00:10:31.330 indigenous peoples and what's in the Constitution 00:10:31.330 --> 00:10:34.690 and the Supreme Court decisions to make sure 00:10:34.690 --> 00:10:39.000 we remain true. to the agreements that the country 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.379 has been founded on. So really special background. 00:10:43.460 --> 00:10:46.580 And of course, member to nation, we had Chief 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:51.460 Terry Paul was at our summit this past year. 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:54.860 And Bern, you were over in the first year and 00:10:54.860 --> 00:10:57.740 we're very pleased to have you. So great, pleased 00:10:57.740 --> 00:10:59.299 to have you then and great to have you again 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:03.480 today. So why don't we start to pull apart, Rob, 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.129 a bit of... some of the story career that, that 00:11:07.129 --> 00:11:09.769 Bernt has has, we can talk about his Boston Bruins 00:11:09.769 --> 00:11:13.090 later in the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. No, Bernt 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:15.149 and I took different paths after that graduation 00:11:15.149 --> 00:11:19.649 day, I joined, uh, stayed with McCarthy Tatro 00:11:19.649 --> 00:11:23.750 and trained and, uh, had in, I was interested 00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:26.769 in McCarthy Tatro because of their strong litigation 00:11:26.769 --> 00:11:29.450 group and, uh, and some work they were doing 00:11:29.450 --> 00:11:34.889 for the government on, uh, land claims and Indigenous 00:11:34.889 --> 00:11:36.950 rights issues. I thought I would get good training 00:11:36.950 --> 00:11:40.490 there and then go off and do my own thing. And 00:11:40.490 --> 00:11:45.309 I'm 35 years later still there and didn't ever 00:11:45.309 --> 00:11:48.690 become a litigator, wasn't cut out for it, enjoyed 00:11:48.690 --> 00:11:51.330 corporate law. And now back in Canada, because 00:11:51.330 --> 00:11:53.690 of all of the activity that's happening in the 00:11:53.690 --> 00:11:57.629 Indigenous space, burned you. You've been living 00:11:57.629 --> 00:12:01.860 it since that graduation day and been in. business 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:06.659 as well as practicing law. Maybe talk about your 00:12:06.659 --> 00:12:11.700 start and how your career evolved. Yeah, yeah, 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.860 sure. You know, that was, again, you know, circumstances 00:12:15.860 --> 00:12:18.519 were interesting because at that time I was, 00:12:18.620 --> 00:12:20.860 before I went to law school, I actually was working 00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:23.259 in the court system as what they call a court 00:12:23.259 --> 00:12:26.600 worker in the city of Toronto, the major city 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:32.720 here in Canada. I was sort of like helping bridging 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:37.399 the gap between the people that are coming before 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.919 the courts and working with lawyers and judges 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:44.919 and social agencies. And then I went to law school, 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:47.940 Osgoode Hall Law School, as Rob pointed out. 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.480 And then and the reason I went there was because 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:53.820 the few of the lawyers said to me, geez, Bryn, 00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:56.299 you could probably do better, you know, have 00:12:56.299 --> 00:13:01.519 bigger impact. um in helping your community and 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.840 uh and a few of them you know wrote the reference 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:06.940 letters and all that sort of stuff and got me 00:13:06.940 --> 00:13:12.299 in and helped me get in and uh i i went to uh 00:13:12.299 --> 00:13:15.879 start my schooling actually the first semester 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.620 was quite interesting because i i met with a 00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:23.460 prof uh alan hutchinson is his name and we were 00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:27.360 sitting uh around December of the first semester. 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:31.519 And we're just talking about a few land claims 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.679 that occurred or were occurring at the time. 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.200 You know, the Nishka were in there, the Satu 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:43.039 Dini, you knew the Aluit. And he was just asking 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.460 me what I plan on doing after law school, you 00:13:45.460 --> 00:13:48.299 know, two years, three years later. And I'd say, 00:13:48.379 --> 00:13:50.220 well, I was thinking of becoming a criminal lawyer 00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:52.559 because that was my background. That's what I 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.970 knew. And then he said, well, I see there's interesting 00:13:56.970 --> 00:13:59.789 developments in the, you know, the Indigenous 00:13:59.789 --> 00:14:02.269 community generally with these, you know, massive 00:14:02.269 --> 00:14:08.429 claims, you know, 500 million, a billion, 300, 00:14:08.850 --> 00:14:11.129 you know, the numbers were starting to become 00:14:11.129 --> 00:14:15.330 interesting. And it just made me sit there and 00:14:15.330 --> 00:14:17.470 think, yeah, geez, what happens with all that 00:14:17.470 --> 00:14:19.590 money? You know, being a business -minded guy, 00:14:19.669 --> 00:14:22.480 I said. man, what has happened with all that 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.440 money? I can't go to grocery stores and gas stations 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:29.759 and car dealerships or snowmobile dealerships. 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:33.559 And so from that point on, I switched my thinking. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:36.379 I think I want to get into sort of the business 00:14:36.379 --> 00:14:39.039 track, the corporate side. So I switched all 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:42.500 my courses to more business oriented and sort 00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:44.740 of focusing on that. And of course, indigenous 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:48.100 rights and making sure I get involved in that. 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.620 And then, sure enough, obviously, I graduated. 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:56.559 And in Canada here, you have to do these things 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.879 called articles. As you know, Rob and Mark, you 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:02.720 have to do an article. It's like an apprenticeship. 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:08.700 And I did that with a firm called Blaney McMurtry. 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:17.509 The principal there was Bill McMurtry. He was 00:15:17.509 --> 00:15:20.330 infamous for kind of starting sort of the aboriginal 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:24.509 track on a lot of files in Canada. And his brother, 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:28.429 Roy McMurtry, I think he became chief justice 00:15:28.429 --> 00:15:31.169 of the Court of Appeal at one point. And he was 00:15:31.169 --> 00:15:34.950 pretty influential in that area, too. And so 00:15:34.950 --> 00:15:38.210 I went there and had a great experience with 00:15:38.210 --> 00:15:41.870 some amazing lawyers, Bill Henderson and Alan 00:15:41.870 --> 00:15:46.539 Pratt. Again, we're the forerunners of what is 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:50.580 known as the indigenous law in the country. And 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.659 of course, you're thinking. After your articles, 00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:56.539 you're all hoping to get hired back by the firm 00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.779 that you're working at in training with and putting 00:15:58.779 --> 00:16:01.519 your blood and sweat for, you know, 12, 14 hours 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:06.100 a day. And to my shock, I was not hired back. 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:10.480 I went, oh, my God, I swear to, you know, the 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:15.049 creator for like. One day I wallowed in self 00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:20.049 -pity and then I got a call the next day after 00:16:20.049 --> 00:16:21.809 I was told that I wasn't going to be hired back 00:16:21.809 --> 00:16:26.210 by Warren Seifert of the law firm Lang Michener, 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:29.029 a very prestigious firm like McCarthy's. Rob, 00:16:29.250 --> 00:16:34.649 it was pretty prestigious in Canada, long history, 00:16:34.950 --> 00:16:39.079 you know, almost a hundred year history. And 00:16:39.079 --> 00:16:42.000 they approached me, the managerial partner approached 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.220 me and said, can we have lunch? And he basically 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:47.879 had it that day. I walked out of where I was 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:50.399 articling and met him for lunch. And then he 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.399 said, hey, listen, we have a partner that is 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:58.080 working on some files and we think the Aboriginal 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:04.059 community is a place that we'd like to be, which 00:17:04.059 --> 00:17:06.680 really, again, threw me off because this is one 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:10.859 of the... big firms saying we want to focus on 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:15.940 that and then I said okay sure you know sign 00:17:15.940 --> 00:17:19.099 me up they hired me right there but I had to 00:17:19.099 --> 00:17:21.480 do my I still had to do my bar admission course 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.740 and I went and did the bar admission course and 00:17:24.740 --> 00:17:27.119 I took that's another you know six month process 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.359 until you get what they call called to the bar 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.680 here in Canada and and then once you do that 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.200 then you go and you start working and I'll just 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.619 finish it off with how it happened is that I 00:17:39.619 --> 00:17:45.619 went to my first day at the office on Bay Street 00:17:45.619 --> 00:17:50.019 and I walk in and I had an assistant already. 00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:51.819 I was feeling like, wow, I got an assistant, 00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:54.980 you know, first year student, first year law 00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:58.720 associate, no experience whatsoever other than 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:01.259 being Indigenous. And I walk into the files, 00:18:01.339 --> 00:18:05.680 they start bringing these files. And I go, wow, 00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:07.519 OK, they're serious. They're going to do some 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:09.680 stuff here. And I had a few meetings with the 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.859 partners, some of the partners. And then they 00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:15.220 said, they said, here's your file. Start working 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:18.660 on this one. And it was involving Shoal Lake 00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:23.259 40 and the water situation with the city of Winnipeg. 00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:26.019 And, you know, like anything, you have to look 00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:29.039 at the file, start getting caught up. And I started 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.690 looking at the partner that had. been working 00:18:32.690 --> 00:18:36.569 on this. And, and you have to remember, this 00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:39.490 is like, like mind blowing for me at the time. 00:18:39.509 --> 00:18:40.869 I don't know anyone else who would think it's 00:18:40.869 --> 00:18:43.329 mind blowing what I did. So I look at the name 00:18:43.329 --> 00:18:47.970 and it's Jean Chrétien. So what happened was 00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:51.529 I, in essence, took over his files, all his Aboriginal 00:18:51.529 --> 00:18:54.930 files, his practice, because he went on to become 00:18:54.930 --> 00:18:56.670 the prime minister. That's what he was doing. 00:18:56.690 --> 00:18:59.029 He quit, become the prime minister of the country. 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.339 And as you can imagine, my God, like instantly, 00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:07.420 boom, you got this phenomenal practice going, 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.859 you know, and they entrusted me as an Indigenous 00:19:11.859 --> 00:19:15.240 person. And they said, well, we know it requires 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.599 an Indigenous person with Indigenous insights 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:21.119 to get this going. So that's a long way how I 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:27.910 got to where I got Rob and Mark. That's how I 00:19:27.910 --> 00:19:31.789 started. Baptism by fire. But then not long after, 00:19:31.869 --> 00:19:34.069 you did a couple of years there, then went to 00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:38.329 member two. And really, we were impressed with 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:42.829 everything that Chief Terry Paul spoke about 00:19:42.829 --> 00:19:45.569 earlier this year. But to go back to those early 00:19:45.569 --> 00:19:49.269 days when you first started as CEO there. Yeah, 00:19:49.309 --> 00:19:52.250 the member two, that again was another, you know. 00:19:53.710 --> 00:19:59.470 A trial by fire. Chief Terry Paul came and said, 00:19:59.549 --> 00:20:01.690 hey, listen, Byrne, he came and saw me at my 00:20:01.690 --> 00:20:06.049 golden ivory towers in downtown Toronto, Bay 00:20:06.049 --> 00:20:09.089 Street, and said, hey, listen, I've got a plan. 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:11.609 I've got a plan. Sorry, were you comfortable 00:20:11.609 --> 00:20:14.109 in your ivory tower at that point? You had the 00:20:14.109 --> 00:20:15.289 assistant. Oh, yeah, I was starting to get all 00:20:15.289 --> 00:20:17.069 mad. You probably thought, wow, this is a good 00:20:17.069 --> 00:20:20.549 life, eh? Oh, yeah. Holy jeez. It was, you know, 00:20:20.670 --> 00:20:24.569 it's pretty, those days. It was pretty posh, 00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:26.529 I can tell you that. It was pretty phenomenal. 00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:30.190 So he comes and sees me and he says, you know, 00:20:30.230 --> 00:20:33.910 listen, you know, I got this idea. You know, 00:20:33.990 --> 00:20:36.009 I come from, he told me his background, which 00:20:36.009 --> 00:20:37.690 he probably told you, you know, the Boston Indian 00:20:37.690 --> 00:20:40.549 Council and working in the States with a lot 00:20:40.549 --> 00:20:44.450 of tribes from different parts of the U .S. And 00:20:44.450 --> 00:20:47.609 he says, I got this idea, you know, I've been 00:20:47.609 --> 00:20:51.960 recently elected and I'm trying to get. get our 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:57.880 community turned around. And he said, he looks 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.740 around here in the office and goes, yeah, I don't 00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:03.140 know if I could pay you as much as these guys 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:05.940 are here. But, you know, basically what we're 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:08.200 asking is if you could come home and help us. 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:10.500 And of course, your own community and your heart 00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:13.119 goes, ah, they helped me. And, you know, they, 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.519 you know, they helped me get to where I was in 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.680 law school. And so, of course, I said, yes. i 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.779 went and joined the community and um yeah it 00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:27.240 was in a pretty rough shape you know we're uh 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:32.759 small budget and uh you know deficit uh owing 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:40.299 banks and then uh we uh we focused on starting 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:44.420 to turn the the situation around and the um the 00:21:44.420 --> 00:21:49.529 the trick i i used And when he made me the CEO, 00:21:49.670 --> 00:21:51.410 it was what he did to me. You know, he pulled 00:21:51.410 --> 00:21:55.289 on my, you know, I wouldn't say purposely, but, 00:21:55.349 --> 00:21:56.990 you know, pulled on my heartstrings and said, 00:21:57.029 --> 00:21:59.369 you know, come home and help us. You know, like 00:21:59.369 --> 00:22:01.829 it's your community. Your family needs your help. 00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:04.670 And so I did that with a few other people in 00:22:04.670 --> 00:22:06.630 the community. And I said, you know, that we're 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:09.029 working elsewhere. You know, some were working 00:22:09.029 --> 00:22:11.670 at companies like Nestle. Some were, you know, 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:18.309 senior government officials. You know, I asked 00:22:18.309 --> 00:22:20.430 them, can you, I called them up and said, can 00:22:20.430 --> 00:22:23.549 you come in and use your expertise that you've, 00:22:23.549 --> 00:22:26.250 you know, learned in dealing with government 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:29.670 and then, you know, the private sector and every 00:22:29.670 --> 00:22:32.589 one of them did exactly what I did. Yeah, yeah, 00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:35.549 we'll do it. But I always say to them, okay, 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:38.789 I can't pay you, you know, we can't pay you what 00:22:38.789 --> 00:22:41.170 you're earning right now, but we'll, you know, 00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:44.069 we'll eventually grow it and then you'll get 00:22:44.069 --> 00:22:47.460 your. the pay that you're used to and probably 00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:50.880 even more. And yeah, sure. In the 11 years I 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.740 was there, we went from basically rags and then 00:22:53.740 --> 00:22:59.039 to riches. And along the way, got ourselves designated 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:03.440 with, you know, the ISO system registered ISO 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:07.160 9001 at the time and our management systems. 00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:11.059 And we did that because we, you know, rightly 00:23:11.059 --> 00:23:13.359 or wrongly, there's perception of Indian bands. 00:23:14.349 --> 00:23:16.930 that they couldn't do business it's the wild 00:23:16.930 --> 00:23:19.390 west we don't know who they are you know etc 00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:23.490 etc etc but the system um everyone knows you 00:23:23.490 --> 00:23:26.710 know the system is a standard that's worldwide 00:23:26.710 --> 00:23:31.210 and you know you say you're iso 9001 2000 and 00:23:31.210 --> 00:23:33.549 boom you know everyone knows what exactly that 00:23:33.549 --> 00:23:35.509 means so we got our management system set up 00:23:35.509 --> 00:23:39.190 that way and then the first uh like the first 00:23:39.190 --> 00:23:41.950 day we announced it on the Canadian Broadcasting 00:23:41.950 --> 00:23:47.190 National News. The next day, we got calls from 00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:50.269 companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin, General 00:23:50.269 --> 00:23:53.730 Dynamics, Eurocopter, say, hey, do you want to 00:23:53.730 --> 00:23:55.890 get involved in military procurement? And I went, 00:23:55.970 --> 00:23:58.690 hey, yeah, for sure. Let's do it. So it was my 00:23:58.690 --> 00:24:02.390 first sort of foray into, you know, massive, 00:24:02.529 --> 00:24:06.769 massive amounts of. potential for a first nation 00:24:06.769 --> 00:24:09.529 you know going from deals there you know dealing 00:24:09.529 --> 00:24:14.029 with a uh like a little convenience store to 00:24:14.029 --> 00:24:18.049 uh you know dealing with a military procurement 00:24:18.049 --> 00:24:21.710 in the three at that time was i think 3 .4 billion 00:24:21.710 --> 00:24:24.750 dollars you know to replace sea kings and duke 00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:27.750 it out with companies like sikorsky and and so 00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:29.950 on so forth and follow the procurement that defense 00:24:29.950 --> 00:24:34.740 canada does that was a That was a heady time 00:24:34.740 --> 00:24:37.019 and it was pretty amazing learning experience 00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:40.220 there. Yeah. So then, you know, just finish it 00:24:40.220 --> 00:24:42.759 off, Rob. Yeah, we went from we went from like 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:45.740 round four. I think it was around four point 00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:50.079 two million and then brought up. Brought the 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.380 revenues up to around 76 million when I left 00:24:53.380 --> 00:24:58.059 and, you know, 20 employees to over 700 employees. 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:00.819 Like it was it was a pretty good turnaround for 00:25:00.819 --> 00:25:05.529 the for the community. Amazing. Amazing. Yes. 00:25:05.670 --> 00:25:07.670 And what were some of, you know, when you're 00:25:07.670 --> 00:25:10.250 working with Boeing and Lockheed Martin, what 00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:13.089 were some of the areas they were, you were becoming 00:25:13.089 --> 00:25:17.170 a supplier to them? Yeah, the idea was, yeah, 00:25:17.269 --> 00:25:21.349 the idea was we were going to obviously bid on 00:25:21.349 --> 00:25:27.130 that contract and get involved in some aspect 00:25:27.130 --> 00:25:29.789 of it. And at the time, of course, we didn't 00:25:29.789 --> 00:25:34.599 know what to do. uh what what we should do but 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.079 we had some young guys that are starting to get 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:41.359 into um you know computers uh they're just naturally 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.660 young kids that were interested in that type 00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:47.400 of stuff and i kind of said well geez why don't 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:54.380 we look at like a data type center um And the 00:25:54.380 --> 00:25:57.319 reason I did that was because around that era, 00:25:57.460 --> 00:26:00.359 there was this push for data centers for call 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.400 centers, actually call centers. And they were 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.759 slowly starting to do these data centers. And 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:08.920 I said, hmm, maybe we could do that. And then 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.299 Boeing, yeah, and Lockheed both said, yeah, you 00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:15.220 know, we can get you the contract to integrate 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:19.480 our systems. Because if you know that those companies. 00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:23.470 Sure, they might have Microsoft Word or whatever, 00:26:23.609 --> 00:26:25.549 right? I'm just using a very dramatic example 00:26:25.549 --> 00:26:28.750 here, but they don't have that and it's not standard. 00:26:28.869 --> 00:26:36.009 So they got to mix their IT together. So if they 00:26:36.009 --> 00:26:37.849 were successful, we would have got that contract 00:26:37.849 --> 00:26:42.049 to integrate all the systems that came into place 00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:46.210 from an IT perspective. And yeah, that would 00:26:46.210 --> 00:26:48.970 have been, I think that was going to be. like 00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:53.490 a $400 million contract just for us to do that. 00:26:54.250 --> 00:26:56.390 So we got ourselves prepared a little bit. And 00:26:56.390 --> 00:27:00.170 I still remember the day there's a, he was young 00:27:00.170 --> 00:27:04.009 at the time, Jason and a few others, Jason Gugu 00:27:04.009 --> 00:27:06.450 and a few others said, hey, listen, you know, 00:27:06.470 --> 00:27:10.029 I got interested in computers. We bought a whole 00:27:10.029 --> 00:27:12.750 bunch of computer -ish type things and servers 00:27:12.750 --> 00:27:18.140 and starting to get ourselves prepared. i got 00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:20.640 a space and then unfortunately it didn't work 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.460 because the the contract as i noted to went to 00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:26.019 sikorsky ultimately but it did allow us though 00:27:26.019 --> 00:27:30.539 to at least use that investment to jump into 00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:34.240 other stuff which then our band to this day is 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.200 still involved heavily in gis systems working 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.859 for the rcmp amongst other national bodies so 00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:46.519 it was a good jumping off point And then what 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.779 took you away from the community and a success 00:27:49.779 --> 00:27:55.380 like that? Yeah, I also got to remember, I'm 00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:57.799 sure you had a big discussion with the chief 00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:01.420 about the clear water situation and fishing. 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:06.920 And, you know, at the time I... And I always 00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:09.640 give credit to the chief. You know, he let myself 00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.279 and a few others kind of take the lead on that 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.220 and be the face of it and kind of coordinate 00:28:15.220 --> 00:28:19.000 a lot of the other communities to, you know, 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.279 when we got that Supreme Court decision in our 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.599 favor, it was a pretty, pretty interesting time. 00:28:25.059 --> 00:28:28.940 And so, you know, I ended up being the. I was 00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:31.880 a CEO for about almost 11, 12 years. And then 00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:34.460 I kind of said, that's a long time to be a CEO. 00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:37.059 I got to kind of move on to other things. And 00:28:37.059 --> 00:28:41.599 I decided to, you know, test the waters and see 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.299 what else is out there. And ended up going to 00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:48.420 an international consulting firm called Hill 00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:53.369 & Knowlton and helping them advise. not only 00:28:53.369 --> 00:28:56.289 domestic clients but international clients that 00:28:56.289 --> 00:28:58.609 are coming into the country on how to deal with 00:28:58.609 --> 00:29:02.289 indigenous communities because that firm was 00:29:02.289 --> 00:29:06.529 you know obviously is a is a global firm that 00:29:06.529 --> 00:29:09.089 has uh with government relations but it also 00:29:09.089 --> 00:29:11.829 has you know other things that it does and one 00:29:11.829 --> 00:29:16.269 of the shops that they open up with my help was 00:29:16.269 --> 00:29:19.460 the indigenous side of things So that's where 00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:21.779 I got and started getting involved actually more 00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:26.420 with some international clients because, so that 00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:31.059 was like in the early 2000s, around 2007, that 00:29:31.059 --> 00:29:33.299 some companies were coming to say, well, how 00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:35.880 do we, you know, how do we start setting up mining 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.460 operations or logistics operations? You know, 00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:43.279 those types of things. Sodexo was a, I still 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.859 remember this, Sodexo was a big client of mine 00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:50.660 that I. helped out. And, uh, you know, as you 00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:54.480 know, Sodexo is a, you know, massive company 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.480 out of Paris that is involved probably in every 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:04.359 country in the globe. And, um, but it, again, 00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:07.299 that was a great experience because they kind 00:30:07.299 --> 00:30:10.559 of adapted to, um, what I really liked is they 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:15.140 adapted to Canada. Like they do, they adapt to 00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:18.619 say, you know, the Congo or they adapt to Australia. 00:30:18.819 --> 00:30:22.599 They seem to have gotten their recipes, their 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:27.619 understanding of cultural, need for cultural 00:30:27.619 --> 00:30:30.859 competency when they go into the marketplace, 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:32.900 wherever they are around the world. So anyway, 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.279 that was one of the big ones there. And then, 00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:38.859 of course, I kept thinking, well, I'm a lawyer. 00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:42.079 I'll start working on that as well and start 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:47.799 developing my practice again. Got myself, continued 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:50.519 to do that from basically after I left member 00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:54.059 two up to today with the smattering of joining 00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:58.880 other firms and then going back, being CEO, firm, 00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:02.880 my firm, other firms. It's checkered pattern. 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.700 But there's a method to my madness. Well, Bert, 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:09.900 you've had a very interesting and successful 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:12.099 career to date. And I know there's a lot more 00:31:12.099 --> 00:31:15.509 to come. Unfortunately. This is all the time 00:31:15.509 --> 00:31:18.930 we have for today. In our next session, why don't 00:31:18.930 --> 00:31:21.450 we dive deeper into the impact of the Mi 'kmaq 00:31:21.450 --> 00:31:24.589 Treaty Rights, which remains central to Indigenous 00:31:24.589 --> 00:31:27.809 governance today across the country, and the 00:31:27.809 --> 00:31:30.910 Sanak Project, a major initiative that's creating 00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:33.230 economic growth and affordable housing for the 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:36.829 Squamish Nation in British Columbia. So, Bernd, 00:31:36.869 --> 00:31:38.710 with you, we've been very fortunate. We've gone 00:31:38.710 --> 00:31:41.980 coast to coast. touching the Atlantic and Pacific. 00:31:42.220 --> 00:31:43.980 And I'm sure at some time in the future, we'll 00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:45.880 also be discussing something about the Arctic. 00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:50.180 Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Bernd, 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.680 it's been great. Great talking to you. Thanks 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.359 again for taking the time. I wish we had more 00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:01.039 time. Such a varied career. And I look forward 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:04.200 to seeing you soon. But in the meantime, Nyaungoa. 00:32:06.259 --> 00:32:08.220 Thank you very much, Rob. Really appreciate it. 00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:12.680 Thank you to Bern Christmas for sharing his insights 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:14.740 with us, and thank you for viewing and listening. 00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:18.559 Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:21.700 taking place on the 8th of April. Be sure to 00:32:21.700 --> 00:32:23.880 share, subscribe, and leave a review on your 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.539 favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening 00:32:26.539 --> 00:32:28.420 to Drumbeats. Until next time.