Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brant
and I are joined today by Bern Christmas, KC,
Principal at Bern Christmas Law Group, BCLG.
We discuss his 30 -year journey as a practicing
Mi 'kmaq lawyer, his role in shaping partnerships
between Indigenous communities and the major
projects that they have been involved with. Byrne
represents First Nations embarking on massive
initiatives across the country, identified by
Prime Minister Mark Carney's focal points for
Canada's current and future development. Some
of these projects include the Ring of Fire and
the Port of Churchill. Most recently, he has
taken on the role of lead negotiator for four
First Nations in southern Ontario, Alderville,
Hiawatha, Curve Lake, and the Mississaugas of
Scugog, who are all in negotiations with Ontario
Power Generation on transmission lines and nuclear
projects valued at around $100 billion. Burned
Christmas. Old friend, thanks for joining us
on Drumbeats. Likewise. I'm glad to be here today.
Pleasure to have you with us. So, Bernd, can
you tell us a little bit about yourself for our
UK and continental European investor audience?
Give us a little bit of context about the man,
what you've achieved so far in your life and
what you're focused on now. OK, yeah, sure. Well,
first, I'm joining you here on this. This program
from Queenston, which is in Ontario, southern
Ontario. And for the UK history buffs, this is
where the battle of, or sorry, the War of 1812
with General Brock occurred between the British
forces and the Americans. And it's the first
time, I guess, and the only time you can say
that the Americans were pushed back, so to speak,
by Canada. which was once British territory.
And it was done so with the aid of, obviously,
the Indigenous forces in the area, mostly the
Iroquois Confederacy of First Nations. Yeah,
myself, I'm Mi 'kmaq from the east coast of Canada
in Nova Scotia, more specifically, member to
First Nation. It's one of 36 communities that
make up the nation itself. And I'm also a practicing
lawyer. I've been doing so for, oh my gosh, I
can't believe I'm going to say this, almost 30
years. A few gray hairs have come in and I've
quite enjoyed myself by focusing on... My community,
meaning the Indigenous community in general here
in North America, and a few times in other parts
of the world, but focusing mostly on deal -making
between private sector and Indigenous nations
that want to do some kind of business. Yeah,
so I've been also, Mark and Rob, I've also been
CEO of... A few prominent First Nations, including
myself, member to First Nation in Mi 'kmaq territory,
and then up in Treaty 8 with Fort Mackay as their
CEO of their oil sands development. And then
most recently, I finished a spot with the Squamish
Nation in the west coast of Canada, in British
Columbia, in Vancouver specifically, and was
their CEO. And I had a few projects that I got
going there. One is the Sanok real estate development,
11 towers that we got underway and is currently
under construction. 52 stories, all 11 of them,
I think. Well, actually 10 of them. And there's
an LNG facility that we got rolling with wood
fiber LNG. refocus their forestry operations
that they have there. And then really up to date,
what I'm doing now is I represent quite a few
First Nations that are embarking upon some pretty
massive projects in the country that actually
have been named by the Prime Minister of Canada
as being the A focal point, I guess, for Canada's
economy. One is the Churchill, Port Churchill,
heavily involved in that. Another is the Ring
of Fire with Martin Falls is my client there
that is trying to make sure that not only the
business aspirations, but the, we'll call it
the social and cultural environmental aspirations
are maintained as well. The Haida Nation is another
client of mine who just went under a self -government
agreement for what is called, formerly called
the Queen Charlotte Islands off of the coast
of British Columbia. And it's the traditional
territory of the Haida Nation and it's called
Haida Gwaii. And we've got quite a few projects
on the go there with, and one being with Asian.
business opportunities. And actually two more
involved in negotiations with companies like
Valet and Glencore, the big mining giants in
the Sudbury Basin. My client there is the Tigamigishing
Anishinaabe, and those companies have collectively,
you know. extracted over 500 billion of nickel
and cobalt and other ores from their traditional
territories. And of course, we're trying to get
now an impact benefit agreement to make that
community whole. And then lastly, and most recently,
just hot off the presses, getting involved with
four first stations here in Southern Ontario,
Alderville, Hiawatha, Curve Lake. And the Mississaugas
of Scugog become their lead negotiator in dealing
with the Ontario power generation in Ontario
as they develop their transmission lines and
nuclear capabilities for the province. And we're
looking at that opportunity. I guess those deals
are in the $100 billion range there. So it's
quite significant. that they've decided to get
focused and trying to get as much opportunity
as they can on those particular projects. So,
Mark, that's kind of a quick elevator speech.
That's quite a broad spectrum, Bernd, and I know
of a couple of things you left out, but I want
to take you back a little bit because you and
I went to law school together. and that was more
than 30 years ago when we graduated. The day
we graduated, my family who were there still
remember that ceremony, not necessarily because
I was there and graduating, but it was a really
emotional day for all graduates, but in particular,
especially you. Do you want to talk about that
day? Oh, yeah, yeah. That was... That was truly
an amazing day, obviously, personally for myself.
Like you, Rob, my family was there too. But I
was pleasantly surprised by the fact that I was
honoured by my nation, the Mi 'kmaq Nation, with
the representative of the traditional government,
the Grand Council, Captain Alec. Denny came and
attended and actually handed me my, uh, my degree.
And, uh, the reason he did that was because,
uh, I was the first, uh, Mi 'kmaq to, uh, ever
become a lawyer in, uh, or, uh, graduated from
a law school and then eventually became a lawyer,
uh, for my, my people. So yeah, it's still a
fond memories and actually, I just, you know,
I don't know why I got kind of emotional on that.
Cause I remember that day and I was, uh, I even
leaned up against the Grand Captain Denny because
I was so overwhelmed with the joy and the honor
I was given. Yeah, it was a pretty amazing time.
Yeah, that was Osgoode Hall Law School at York
University. And a special day for all of us,
but particularly for you and memorable. I wanted
people to appreciate what a special day that
was. Yeah, thanks, Rob. I appreciate that. Yeah,
that was something. Very special. And, you know,
again, for our audience to think as, you know,
both Berndt yourself and Rob are the first in
your families, perhaps even to have a university
degree. But before then, Indigenous people could
not practice law. So how could anyone defend
their rights? Right. When you think about that,
it's part of the reason why there's such a transformation
today, because people such as yourselves are
now in positions of power, authority, influence
and experience to help shape Canada as it is
supposed to be based on the treaties with the
indigenous peoples and what's in the Constitution
and the Supreme Court decisions to make sure
we remain true. to the agreements that the country
has been founded on. So really special background.
And of course, member to nation, we had Chief
Terry Paul was at our summit this past year.
And Bern, you were over in the first year and
we're very pleased to have you. So great, pleased
to have you then and great to have you again
today. So why don't we start to pull apart, Rob,
a bit of... some of the story career that, that
Bernt has has, we can talk about his Boston Bruins
later in the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. No, Bernt
and I took different paths after that graduation
day, I joined, uh, stayed with McCarthy Tatro
and trained and, uh, had in, I was interested
in McCarthy Tatro because of their strong litigation
group and, uh, and some work they were doing
for the government on, uh, land claims and Indigenous
rights issues. I thought I would get good training
there and then go off and do my own thing. And
I'm 35 years later still there and didn't ever
become a litigator, wasn't cut out for it, enjoyed
corporate law. And now back in Canada, because
of all of the activity that's happening in the
Indigenous space, burned you. You've been living
it since that graduation day and been in. business
as well as practicing law. Maybe talk about your
start and how your career evolved. Yeah, yeah,
sure. You know, that was, again, you know, circumstances
were interesting because at that time I was,
before I went to law school, I actually was working
in the court system as what they call a court
worker in the city of Toronto, the major city
here in Canada. I was sort of like helping bridging
the gap between the people that are coming before
the courts and working with lawyers and judges
and social agencies. And then I went to law school,
Osgoode Hall Law School, as Rob pointed out.
And then and the reason I went there was because
the few of the lawyers said to me, geez, Bryn,
you could probably do better, you know, have
bigger impact. um in helping your community and
uh and a few of them you know wrote the reference
letters and all that sort of stuff and got me
in and helped me get in and uh i i went to uh
start my schooling actually the first semester
was quite interesting because i i met with a
prof uh alan hutchinson is his name and we were
sitting uh around December of the first semester.
And we're just talking about a few land claims
that occurred or were occurring at the time.
You know, the Nishka were in there, the Satu
Dini, you knew the Aluit. And he was just asking
me what I plan on doing after law school, you
know, two years, three years later. And I'd say,
well, I was thinking of becoming a criminal lawyer
because that was my background. That's what I
knew. And then he said, well, I see there's interesting
developments in the, you know, the Indigenous
community generally with these, you know, massive
claims, you know, 500 million, a billion, 300,
you know, the numbers were starting to become
interesting. And it just made me sit there and
think, yeah, geez, what happens with all that
money? You know, being a business -minded guy,
I said. man, what has happened with all that
money? I can't go to grocery stores and gas stations
and car dealerships or snowmobile dealerships.
And so from that point on, I switched my thinking.
I think I want to get into sort of the business
track, the corporate side. So I switched all
my courses to more business oriented and sort
of focusing on that. And of course, indigenous
rights and making sure I get involved in that.
And then, sure enough, obviously, I graduated.
And in Canada here, you have to do these things
called articles. As you know, Rob and Mark, you
have to do an article. It's like an apprenticeship.
And I did that with a firm called Blaney McMurtry.
The principal there was Bill McMurtry. He was
infamous for kind of starting sort of the aboriginal
track on a lot of files in Canada. And his brother,
Roy McMurtry, I think he became chief justice
of the Court of Appeal at one point. And he was
pretty influential in that area, too. And so
I went there and had a great experience with
some amazing lawyers, Bill Henderson and Alan
Pratt. Again, we're the forerunners of what is
known as the indigenous law in the country. And
of course, you're thinking. After your articles,
you're all hoping to get hired back by the firm
that you're working at in training with and putting
your blood and sweat for, you know, 12, 14 hours
a day. And to my shock, I was not hired back.
I went, oh, my God, I swear to, you know, the
creator for like. One day I wallowed in self
-pity and then I got a call the next day after
I was told that I wasn't going to be hired back
by Warren Seifert of the law firm Lang Michener,
a very prestigious firm like McCarthy's. Rob,
it was pretty prestigious in Canada, long history,
you know, almost a hundred year history. And
they approached me, the managerial partner approached
me and said, can we have lunch? And he basically
had it that day. I walked out of where I was
articling and met him for lunch. And then he
said, hey, listen, we have a partner that is
working on some files and we think the Aboriginal
community is a place that we'd like to be, which
really, again, threw me off because this is one
of the... big firms saying we want to focus on
that and then I said okay sure you know sign
me up they hired me right there but I had to
do my I still had to do my bar admission course
and I went and did the bar admission course and
I took that's another you know six month process
until you get what they call called to the bar
here in Canada and and then once you do that
then you go and you start working and I'll just
finish it off with how it happened is that I
went to my first day at the office on Bay Street
and I walk in and I had an assistant already.
I was feeling like, wow, I got an assistant,
you know, first year student, first year law
associate, no experience whatsoever other than
being Indigenous. And I walk into the files,
they start bringing these files. And I go, wow,
OK, they're serious. They're going to do some
stuff here. And I had a few meetings with the
partners, some of the partners. And then they
said, they said, here's your file. Start working
on this one. And it was involving Shoal Lake
40 and the water situation with the city of Winnipeg.
And, you know, like anything, you have to look
at the file, start getting caught up. And I started
looking at the partner that had. been working
on this. And, and you have to remember, this
is like, like mind blowing for me at the time.
I don't know anyone else who would think it's
mind blowing what I did. So I look at the name
and it's Jean Chrétien. So what happened was
I, in essence, took over his files, all his Aboriginal
files, his practice, because he went on to become
the prime minister. That's what he was doing.
He quit, become the prime minister of the country.
And as you can imagine, my God, like instantly,
boom, you got this phenomenal practice going,
you know, and they entrusted me as an Indigenous
person. And they said, well, we know it requires
an Indigenous person with Indigenous insights
to get this going. So that's a long way how I
got to where I got Rob and Mark. That's how I
started. Baptism by fire. But then not long after,
you did a couple of years there, then went to
member two. And really, we were impressed with
everything that Chief Terry Paul spoke about
earlier this year. But to go back to those early
days when you first started as CEO there. Yeah,
the member two, that again was another, you know.
A trial by fire. Chief Terry Paul came and said,
hey, listen, Byrne, he came and saw me at my
golden ivory towers in downtown Toronto, Bay
Street, and said, hey, listen, I've got a plan.
I've got a plan. Sorry, were you comfortable
in your ivory tower at that point? You had the
assistant. Oh, yeah, I was starting to get all
mad. You probably thought, wow, this is a good
life, eh? Oh, yeah. Holy jeez. It was, you know,
it's pretty, those days. It was pretty posh,
I can tell you that. It was pretty phenomenal.
So he comes and sees me and he says, you know,
listen, you know, I got this idea. You know,
I come from, he told me his background, which
he probably told you, you know, the Boston Indian
Council and working in the States with a lot
of tribes from different parts of the U .S. And
he says, I got this idea, you know, I've been
recently elected and I'm trying to get. get our
community turned around. And he said, he looks
around here in the office and goes, yeah, I don't
know if I could pay you as much as these guys
are here. But, you know, basically what we're
asking is if you could come home and help us.
And of course, your own community and your heart
goes, ah, they helped me. And, you know, they,
you know, they helped me get to where I was in
law school. And so, of course, I said, yes. i
went and joined the community and um yeah it
was in a pretty rough shape you know we're uh
small budget and uh you know deficit uh owing
banks and then uh we uh we focused on starting
to turn the the situation around and the um the
the trick i i used And when he made me the CEO,
it was what he did to me. You know, he pulled
on my, you know, I wouldn't say purposely, but,
you know, pulled on my heartstrings and said,
you know, come home and help us. You know, like
it's your community. Your family needs your help.
And so I did that with a few other people in
the community. And I said, you know, that we're
working elsewhere. You know, some were working
at companies like Nestle. Some were, you know,
senior government officials. You know, I asked
them, can you, I called them up and said, can
you come in and use your expertise that you've,
you know, learned in dealing with government
and then, you know, the private sector and every
one of them did exactly what I did. Yeah, yeah,
we'll do it. But I always say to them, okay,
I can't pay you, you know, we can't pay you what
you're earning right now, but we'll, you know,
we'll eventually grow it and then you'll get
your. the pay that you're used to and probably
even more. And yeah, sure. In the 11 years I
was there, we went from basically rags and then
to riches. And along the way, got ourselves designated
with, you know, the ISO system registered ISO
9001 at the time and our management systems.
And we did that because we, you know, rightly
or wrongly, there's perception of Indian bands.
that they couldn't do business it's the wild
west we don't know who they are you know etc
etc etc but the system um everyone knows you
know the system is a standard that's worldwide
and you know you say you're iso 9001 2000 and
boom you know everyone knows what exactly that
means so we got our management system set up
that way and then the first uh like the first
day we announced it on the Canadian Broadcasting
National News. The next day, we got calls from
companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin, General
Dynamics, Eurocopter, say, hey, do you want to
get involved in military procurement? And I went,
hey, yeah, for sure. Let's do it. So it was my
first sort of foray into, you know, massive,
massive amounts of. potential for a first nation
you know going from deals there you know dealing
with a uh like a little convenience store to
uh you know dealing with a military procurement
in the three at that time was i think 3 .4 billion
dollars you know to replace sea kings and duke
it out with companies like sikorsky and and so
on so forth and follow the procurement that defense
canada does that was a That was a heady time
and it was pretty amazing learning experience
there. Yeah. So then, you know, just finish it
off, Rob. Yeah, we went from we went from like
round four. I think it was around four point
two million and then brought up. Brought the
revenues up to around 76 million when I left
and, you know, 20 employees to over 700 employees.
Like it was it was a pretty good turnaround for
the for the community. Amazing. Amazing. Yes.
And what were some of, you know, when you're
working with Boeing and Lockheed Martin, what
were some of the areas they were, you were becoming
a supplier to them? Yeah, the idea was, yeah,
the idea was we were going to obviously bid on
that contract and get involved in some aspect
of it. And at the time, of course, we didn't
know what to do. uh what what we should do but
we had some young guys that are starting to get
into um you know computers uh they're just naturally
young kids that were interested in that type
of stuff and i kind of said well geez why don't
we look at like a data type center um And the
reason I did that was because around that era,
there was this push for data centers for call
centers, actually call centers. And they were
slowly starting to do these data centers. And
I said, hmm, maybe we could do that. And then
Boeing, yeah, and Lockheed both said, yeah, you
know, we can get you the contract to integrate
our systems. Because if you know that those companies.
Sure, they might have Microsoft Word or whatever,
right? I'm just using a very dramatic example
here, but they don't have that and it's not standard.
So they got to mix their IT together. So if they
were successful, we would have got that contract
to integrate all the systems that came into place
from an IT perspective. And yeah, that would
have been, I think that was going to be. like
a $400 million contract just for us to do that.
So we got ourselves prepared a little bit. And
I still remember the day there's a, he was young
at the time, Jason and a few others, Jason Gugu
and a few others said, hey, listen, you know,
I got interested in computers. We bought a whole
bunch of computer -ish type things and servers
and starting to get ourselves prepared. i got
a space and then unfortunately it didn't work
because the the contract as i noted to went to
sikorsky ultimately but it did allow us though
to at least use that investment to jump into
other stuff which then our band to this day is
still involved heavily in gis systems working
for the rcmp amongst other national bodies so
it was a good jumping off point And then what
took you away from the community and a success
like that? Yeah, I also got to remember, I'm
sure you had a big discussion with the chief
about the clear water situation and fishing.
And, you know, at the time I... And I always
give credit to the chief. You know, he let myself
and a few others kind of take the lead on that
and be the face of it and kind of coordinate
a lot of the other communities to, you know,
when we got that Supreme Court decision in our
favor, it was a pretty, pretty interesting time.
And so, you know, I ended up being the. I was
a CEO for about almost 11, 12 years. And then
I kind of said, that's a long time to be a CEO.
I got to kind of move on to other things. And
I decided to, you know, test the waters and see
what else is out there. And ended up going to
an international consulting firm called Hill
& Knowlton and helping them advise. not only
domestic clients but international clients that
are coming into the country on how to deal with
indigenous communities because that firm was
you know obviously is a is a global firm that
has uh with government relations but it also
has you know other things that it does and one
of the shops that they open up with my help was
the indigenous side of things So that's where
I got and started getting involved actually more
with some international clients because, so that
was like in the early 2000s, around 2007, that
some companies were coming to say, well, how
do we, you know, how do we start setting up mining
operations or logistics operations? You know,
those types of things. Sodexo was a, I still
remember this, Sodexo was a big client of mine
that I. helped out. And, uh, you know, as you
know, Sodexo is a, you know, massive company
out of Paris that is involved probably in every
country in the globe. And, um, but it, again,
that was a great experience because they kind
of adapted to, um, what I really liked is they
adapted to Canada. Like they do, they adapt to
say, you know, the Congo or they adapt to Australia.
They seem to have gotten their recipes, their
understanding of cultural, need for cultural
competency when they go into the marketplace,
wherever they are around the world. So anyway,
that was one of the big ones there. And then,
of course, I kept thinking, well, I'm a lawyer.
I'll start working on that as well and start
developing my practice again. Got myself, continued
to do that from basically after I left member
two up to today with the smattering of joining
other firms and then going back, being CEO, firm,
my firm, other firms. It's checkered pattern.
But there's a method to my madness. Well, Bert,
you've had a very interesting and successful
career to date. And I know there's a lot more
to come. Unfortunately. This is all the time
we have for today. In our next session, why don't
we dive deeper into the impact of the Mi 'kmaq
Treaty Rights, which remains central to Indigenous
governance today across the country, and the
Sanak Project, a major initiative that's creating
economic growth and affordable housing for the
Squamish Nation in British Columbia. So, Bernd,
with you, we've been very fortunate. We've gone
coast to coast. touching the Atlantic and Pacific.
And I'm sure at some time in the future, we'll
also be discussing something about the Arctic.
Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Bernd,
it's been great. Great talking to you. Thanks
again for taking the time. I wish we had more
time. Such a varied career. And I look forward
to seeing you soon. But in the meantime, Nyaungoa.
Thank you very much, Rob. Really appreciate it.
Thank you to Bern Christmas for sharing his insights
with us, and thank you for viewing and listening.
Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2026 Summit
taking place on the 8th of April. Be sure to
share, subscribe, and leave a review on your
favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening
to Drumbeats. Until next time.