Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
Hi, I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are today discussing the establishment
of the Major Projects Office, which will be based
in Calgary, Alberta, as well as the Indigenous
Advisory Council and what that means for foreign
investors. The establishment of the Major Projects
Office and the IAC is one of the most important
initiatives of Prime Minister Mark Carney as
he seeks to reposition Canada's trading relationships
away from its southern neighbor and across the
world. As important is strengthening the unity
of the Canadian single market and breaking down
provincial and territorial boundaries so Canada
can reach its full potential. for all its citizens,
Indigenous and non -Indigenous. Good afternoon,
Rob. Great to see you. I think you're out in
Northern Ontario today. Yeah, good morning, Mark.
And hello from beautiful Thunder Bay on the north
shore of Lake Superior. I'm here to talk to a
group of First Nations about a power project.
Fantastic. Great Lakes, right? One of the, I
think, largest freshwater lakes in the world.
Absolutely. I think that's where it gets its
name. Wow. It's deep there too. Have you been
in the water this morning? Not yet. The sun is
just peaking. It's a beautiful, beautiful city
on the shores here. And yesterday I had time
to stop by the Terry Fox Memorial. And pay my
respects. Yes, very personal for you, given you've
been chair over here for so long. Yeah, no, and
timely because of the Terry Fox runs over the
weekend all over Canada and around the world
in London. There were 1 ,300 or more runners
in Battersea Park, all supporting. fundraising
for cancer research. And just outside Thunder
Bay is where Terry's Marathon of Hope sadly ended
when he got too ill to continue and he had to
stop. And so there's a monument at the place
where he stopped in a beautiful, beautiful setting.
Wow, I remember growing up as a kid watching.
him run across the country and having to stop
in Thunder Bay. The whole country was behind
him. So inspiring. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So inspiring.
And what's really inspiring is it's continued
so much. And as I alluded to earlier, you spent
a lot of time in support of Terry Fox Run over
here as well, which you mentioned took place
in Battersea Park. So we're going to try and
include some links to the Terry Fox site over
here. for our viewer and listeners, for those
who want to know more about Terry Fox or also
make a small donation on his behalf. Cancer remains,
you know, the one disease all of us have been
touched by. So that's great, though, that you're
up in Thunder Bay and you're working now. Is
this one of the top five or is it a list of the
31 projects or is this just one of these great
projects? Go and get done. Not this particular
one, but it is part of what goes into and will
be and is called the Ring of Fire. And there's
lots of infrastructure needed. I don't think
a Ring of Fire project has been designated yet,
but maybe in the next round because there's another
five or so going to be named apparently in a
couple months' time. Right. So let's come back
to some of the announcements that we've had.
over the past week and that's why I want to catch
up today in particular because the Indigenous
Advisory Council has now been set up. Can you
give us a bit of background again, come back
with what Prime Minister Carney has done but
where the project office has been set up and
then let's talk through the IAC, some of the
individuals and what is its real role? Sure.
Well, the announcement of the members of the
IAC is the latest announcement in a series of
announcements rolling out the fast track process
for projects that will be or have been identified
as being in the national interest in Canada.
And so we saw earlier in the summer, the office,
the major projects office being set up and a
chief executive officer named Don Farrell. and
the office will be located in Calgary. And now
the Indigenous Advisory Council has been named,
and that council will advise the major projects
office. And it is all part of the rollout of
this new process for fast -tracking and eventually
approving major projects in Canada. Yes, there
has been a lot of changes, Rob. And you mentioned
that the project office itself was being set
up in Calgary. Was that a policy move, a political
move? There's a lot of people in Ottawa who probably
won't want to move to Calgary, but that's probably
because they've never been there and really don't
appreciate it. And where is the IAC going to
be based? Yeah, well, the major projects office
will be headquartered in Calgary. I mentioned
Don Farrell, appointed former CEO of Trans Mountain
Pipeline. So she has oil and gas energy experience.
She's a Westerner. That may signal where some
of the priorities of the government may lie.
And the IAC is... dispersed right around the
country with representation from First Nations.
I think of the 10 members or 11 members, seven
are First Nations, two are Inuit and two are
Métis and coast to coast to coast representation.
I understand they'll meet at least four times
a year and I haven't seen their terms of reference
yet. to be determined exactly what role they
will play. They're not going to be selecting
the projects, and I'm not sure they're advising
on specific projects, but they will provide advice
from time to time to the major projects office
on Indigenous policy issues. And so that's what
I think the role of the IAC will be. Interesting,
because you have over 600 First Nations, Inuit
and Métis as well in Canada. And what was their
view about the IAC being set up? Well, there's
still a debate within the Indigenous community
about this whole fast track process. I was at
the Assembly of First Nations National. meeting
in Winnipeg recently and even there there's debate
about whether the concerns about whether fast
track process will short circuit consultation
rights that Indigenous people have fought hard
for over the years. There's a concern that there'll
be shortcuts taken. and some of those rights
lost. And so there are those who want the legislation
to be clearer and they want more explicit consultation
and veto rights for these major projects. There
are others who want to get on and believe that
there's enough leverage. Now, within the existing
laws, the constitutional rights, other rights,
the major projects within the territories of
Indigenous peoples will not be able to be completed
without a meaningful involvement of those Indigenous
peoples. It's certainly a change, even with all
those questions, given this is Prime Minister
Carney's major initiative. under his leadership
in terms of changing the direction of the economic
growth in Canada, not only to continue growing,
but also who our trading partners are and diversifying
that. There is merit that an Indigenous Advisory
Council has been set up at all because historically
that has never happened. The first continental
railway in North America, many of our listeners
might not know, is actually... the Canadian railway
that went coast to coast, was not built with
an Indigenous advisory council or participation
whatsoever. It was there to unite the country,
Poland, British Columbia, to confederation. And
it was a race to get it built against the railway
south of the border. So I think that does, at
least establishing the IAC, says something's
changed. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it
is a signal of the importance of the viewpoints
of Indigenous people as we move forward and try
to get these projects completed. And so I and
a lot of others are hoping there's a lot of good
people on that council. It's got good broad representation.
hopefully they will have an ability to influence
some of the direction of the major projects office
as it relates to Indigenous people. Yes, and
because also an association such as the Assembly
of First Nations, even it has issues in terms
of speaking on behalf of all its members all
the time consistently, right? It's only... And
part of the challenge when you're managing something
on that scale with hundreds of nations. Yeah,
very difficult. Assembly of First Nations is
an advocacy group. They're not rights holders
themselves. And trying to get consensus on any
issue is not always easy. From the feedback you've
heard. Do the First Nations have a different
perspective on the merits of the IAC versus the
Inuit versus the Métis? They've had different
experiences as Canadians. Yeah, they have different
rights. I mean, all three groups are protected
under the Constitution, but the Inuit, for example,
have specific self -governing modern agreements.
First Nations are... split between those who
have treaty rights as well others have are on
unceded territories with some of their rights
still to be determined and and in the meantime
you have the government under pressure to move
because i think everybody agrees that the projects
processes have moved too slowly in the past and
that has discouraged investment in Canada and
outside of Canada. And so there's, I think, broad
support for the initiative. There are some issues
with the process the government went through
to get legislation passed and whether the legislation
is perfect. But most people would like to see
this initiative be successful. Yes. And they
have announced the first five projects, which
actually aren't new projects. They're already
on their way, if I understand correctly. Can
you speak to some of that, Rob? Yeah, I'm sure
they selected their first announcements. They
want those to be successful. And they've selected
projects that are, for the most part, well on
their way. to completion or to final finance
investment decisions and hopefully this new process
which streamlines decision making and hopefully
reduces duplication will speed up and give the
final push to some of these projects that they
need to attract investment. All of these projects
require private investment and private investors
need the right the right environment to have
confidence to invest yes and if we look at that
process with the major projects office and these
first five and there's a list i think of another
25 at the moment that is circulating in the halls
of ottawa uh being talked about and everyone's
trying to get their project on the list because
i think part of the perception is if you're on
the list You might get done quicker, but I'm
sure there's some people thinking, we don't want
to be on any list. Let's just get going and do
what we're doing. Yeah, and if this new process
works, it begs the question, why can't we do
it for more? Why so few? But I guess it's a matter
of resources and priorities. And so if you're
on that list and you get the official designation,
then maybe your project moves up. on the to -do
list of the various government agencies that
have to move to make your project successful.
And if they can avoid duplication for these types
of projects, it seems like the federal government
and the provincial government have agreed somewhat
in how they will reduce duplication because you
sometimes have a federal department and a provincial
department. with some sort of jurisdiction over
a project and duplicating reviews and decision
-making. Environmental assessments is one, right?
Yeah, that's one. And that's one area where you're
seeing Indigenous people sort of take over those
processes in some cases. They're starting to...
Governments are delegating authority. to Indigenous
communities to run that process themselves so
they're completely confident and happy with the
results and the outcome. And so they should,
really, wherever anybody lives, you would want
to be involved in the environmental assessment
of something that is going to happen in your
neighbourhood now. In the UK, there's a lot of
NIMBYism, as you'll recall that word from all
the time spent here, which has prevented things
getting blocked. But at the end of the day, the
Indigenous peoples have this right, this constitutional
right. So it's going to happen whether anybody
likes it or not. So why not then give them that
responsibility for doing that assessment? I think
they on the whole would feel a responsibility
to the country and the province as well that
they've taken on that ability. I just see that
as a win -win. Now, of course, if you're a...
A lobbying firm in Ottawa, that might not be
such an exciting prospect to know now you have
to travel more and more across the country. But
that's only good for everybody, I would think.
Yeah, the more involved the Indigenous communities
are in projects that are going to affect them,
whether it's environmental assessments or other
processes, the better. They are the people who
are going to be most affected if things go wrong.
The impacts will be directly felt by them, sometimes
for years or generations to come. And so who
better to assess and think long -term about some
of the impacts of these projects. It's funny,
I was in Rama, the Chippewas of the Rama First
Nation just recently for an Indigenous law camp.
Oh, wow. Also a part of Northern Ontario. Did
you meet our chief? Chief Ted Williams. Yes.
Yes. We've spoken to before. Beautiful territory
on Lake Kuchiching. And there are fishnets, stone
fishnets in the lake that have been carbon dated
to 4 ,000 to 5 ,000 years ago. Wow. You have
some idea of how long some of these nations have
been in their territories. And so they've been
here a long time. They're going to be here a
long time after. And so they think long -term
about impacts of projects. Absolutely. So as
you know, living in the United Kingdom, 1066
and all that is kind of a... We lost a lot of
the locals during that time and certainly their
own authority over the land here. It isn't thought
of in that way, but it's certainly true. And
what about the provinces and territories? What
did they think of the initial list? Of course,
Ring of Fire wasn't on it, as you mentioned.
But were they generally supportive of the initial
five? And how has there been response? Yeah,
I think generally supportive. As we've said,
these projects are underway for the most part
and that there is general support for them. I
think there's some who wish their project had
been identified, but the... Government has said
they're going to announce another five or so
in a couple of months. So hang tight. They won't
be able to satisfy everybody. As you said, there's
a list that was leaked of maybe 32 that they're
apparently in consideration for this national
interest designation. Five to 10 announced before
the end of the year and others as they roll out.
So we'll see. I'm sure they are keenly aware
of wanting to disperse geographically and in
other ways, these designations. Yes. And I guess
the other news that has come out is there's been
some recent polling. You know, Canadians, one
of the reasons Prime Minister Carney, I think,
took the job and certainly got elected, was having
the... perceived competence and experience to
deal with our southern neighbor. That issue has
kind of dropped down a little bit in terms of
the list, if I understand, because what's now
happening, these are bread and butter issues.
Yes, the tariffs are causing problems. Yes, people
are losing their jobs and the economy is slowing.
Now people are like, well, that's all great,
but what are you going to do for me? Which is
kind of back to normal. Housing costs are still
high, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What's
your feeling on the perception of the rights
of the Indigenous people in that context and
their contribution to these projects going forward?
Good question. I think the poll, which I saw
headlines, but the poll you were referring to,
there was some hesitation. I can't remember the
numbers, but in the population. uh concerned
about i think projects getting bogged down because
indigenous people wouldn't approve them or we're
giving too many uh yes too many opportunities
to to veto projects um i'm not sure to be honest
i don't know if it's a top but it's a burning
The fact is the law is what it is, the constitutional
rights, the case law, other statutory laws, they're
there and they need to be followed. The treaty
rights are there and need to be followed as well.
Yes. And I certainly think if some people are
unhappy with that, they should actually be speaking
to their own provincial government and at the
federal state. Clean up the bureaucracy. Process
things quicker. Because in all honesty, yes,
the Indigenous rights are there. It's in the
Constitution. If you really want to make a difference,
get things done. Get the regulatory bodies in
your province or territory, and at the federal
level, get all that sorted out quickly. Imagine
if Canada was able to eliminate the duplication
at the national and provincial level. There'd
be a sea change. in how fast got things done.
Because there's as much work to be done there
as there is with the Indigenous nations. Absolutely.
And I think our Prime Minister appreciates that.
He comes from finance. He comes from global finance.
He knows how international investors view Canada.
And he knows the issues that need to be addressed,
whether this government will be successful or
not. I think everybody applauds the effort. Yes.
And with this process, the Major Projects Office
and the IAC set up for a foreign investor that
we meet with over here, Rob, that we talked to
over here. And we do as well. How big a factor
is this whole major projects office and the IEC
and what's going on there? If anything, it should
be making Canada a more attractive place because
of the focus on get things done. Absolutely.
I think it hits four international investors.
I think this is probably the number one. for
them that might change their view about investing
in Canada, about the likelihood of success in
investing in Canada. It's more evidence of the
importance of Indigenous peoples and engaging
with Indigenous communities. I think business
is already ahead of that curve anyway. I think
they understand the value that... indigenous
people bring to their projects. And so it's not
just a question of what are we, what do we have
to do to comply with the law? I think more companies
are appreciating if they want a successful project,
they need local engagement with the indigenous
people. Yes. So that, that's kind of, if you're
a successful company today or you're working
on a project in Canada, you're probably already
working with the indigenous peoples in the. community
concerned and you know the importance of that.
This is just how do you speed up the process
because they already know the way to succeed
and businesses want to succeed long -term. With
the investment in natural resources or hydro
or energy or all the defense issues now being
discussed, you want to work with good long -term
partners and the indigenous people have proven
that time and time again. So I think for foreign
investors, international investors, it remains
do what needs to be done. Do your homework. Get
engaged early. And you will have the best opportunity
to succeed. But there will be a budget this autumn.
It's been identified. Carney has said that we're
going to run a deficit to get a lot of this necessary
investment done. which again reinforces Canada
has a strong balance sheet. If you look at it
and share it, that is percent of GDP. Even though
there's been a lot of spending in the past few
years, Canada still is in a very good position
for long -term investments. So if they're made
in the right place on infrastructure and natural
resources and energy, that's all good for the
economy and for investors. Defense investments.
We live in troubled times. And defense brings
good jobs. Of course, you don't want to have
to use it. But if you don't have it, you're going
to be in a desperate spot. So I think that's
even more positive for foreign investors looking
that Canada is finally starting to really be
serious about what needs to be done. to secure
its place, not only in North America, given the
southern neighbor, but also its place in the
world and make a stronger contribution to NATO,
to the Arctic. New icebreakers are coming, have
been commissioned, which is all great. So it
looks like a lot going on, Rob. So look forward.
You're on your way to when this gets released
on Thursday. You'll be here in London again,
which will be wonderful. I'll be back in the
city of London, yes. I'm looking forward to catching
up, Mark. Great. Okay, Rob. Super. Enjoy the
rest of your time in Thunder Bay, a great place,
and look forward to seeing you later in the week.
Sounds great. Thank you for joining Rob and I
today on a special podcast where we discussed
an issue of critical importance for our listeners
and viewers. Mark your calendars for the upcoming
2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April.
Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review
on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for
listening to Drumbeats. Until next time.