WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:13.369 --> 00:00:15.890 I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brant 00:00:15.890 --> 00:00:18.649 and I are joined today by Thomas Benjo, Chief 00:00:18.649 --> 00:00:22.050 Executive Officer of Flowing River Capital. He 00:00:22.050 --> 00:00:24.190 brings a track record of Indigenous leadership 00:00:24.190 --> 00:00:26.829 recognized for advancing economic reconciliation. 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.379 and its focus on creating opportunities for Indigenous 00:00:30.379 --> 00:00:33.240 people and future career pathways is to be recognized. 00:00:34.100 --> 00:00:36.700 Today, we're exploring how Indigenous -led private 00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:39.079 equity is transforming community wealth creation 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:42.039 and what this means for investors seeking authentic 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:47.320 partnerships in Canada. Thomas Benjo, CEO of 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:51.960 New Reformed Flowing River Capital. Welcome to 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:54.659 Drumbeats. Great to have you with us. Yeah, thanks 00:00:54.659 --> 00:00:57.590 for having me. Yes, great to have you here, Thomas. 00:00:58.549 --> 00:01:01.490 Thomas, before we jump in and talk about the 00:01:01.490 --> 00:01:03.869 new fund, I know it's been a busy summer. You 00:01:03.869 --> 00:01:08.250 launched earlier this summer, but let's first 00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:11.049 talk about your upbringing and your background. 00:01:11.250 --> 00:01:15.989 You've done a lot at a young age, but start with 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:18.010 where you're from and the community you're from. 00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:27.819 Sure. Thomas Benjo, I'm from Muscapeding First 00:01:27.819 --> 00:01:30.640 Nation, which is located here in Saskatchewan. 00:01:31.019 --> 00:01:37.379 And Ben sort of started off my career at First 00:01:37.379 --> 00:01:41.939 Nations University, had the opportunity to focus 00:01:41.939 --> 00:01:46.980 my education on Indigenous business and Indigenous 00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:51.200 governance. And that took me into the banking 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.140 world where I worked as a commercial banker with 00:01:55.140 --> 00:01:59.439 RBC and served in a number of different responsibilities 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:04.079 and helped to participate on a number of new 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:08.379 initiatives, new lending opportunities for nations 00:02:08.379 --> 00:02:12.580 across the country. And that then took me into 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:17.639 the opportunity to be... CEO for a tribal council 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:19.800 -owned investment firm based here in Saskatchewan 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:25.599 and had a very successful portfolio growth with 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:30.280 very little investment but was able to create 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:32.819 quite a portfolio of companies that have been 00:02:32.819 --> 00:02:35.879 very successful here in Saskatchewan and Western 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:39.419 Canada. It's been great to be able to have that 00:02:39.419 --> 00:02:42.560 experience and now bring that into the world 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.319 that we're now involved in, in private equity 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.780 and also served on a number of different boards, 00:02:48.819 --> 00:02:51.300 still serving on a number of boards and including 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:55.379 the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. So trying to 00:02:55.379 --> 00:03:01.539 ensure that there's Indigenous and sort of economic 00:03:01.539 --> 00:03:04.969 reconciliation on the agenda. of those organizations 00:03:04.969 --> 00:03:08.689 so that we ensure that our nations are not forgotten 00:03:08.689 --> 00:03:11.370 about when we're talking about the economics 00:03:11.370 --> 00:03:15.270 of this country. And for our listeners, especially 00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:17.789 those outside of Canada, explain a little bit 00:03:17.789 --> 00:03:22.770 about where your community is located. Yeah, 00:03:22.810 --> 00:03:26.370 so we're right here in Regina, Saskatchewan. 00:03:26.490 --> 00:03:31.590 My community is actually just about 35 minutes 00:03:31.590 --> 00:03:35.729 outside of Regina. Um, very, uh, beautiful countryside, 00:03:35.969 --> 00:03:39.430 very flat. We could see, uh, uh, dog running 00:03:39.430 --> 00:03:43.930 for miles and miles away. So, um, but, uh, we're, 00:03:43.949 --> 00:03:45.610 we're right along the valley as well. So very 00:03:45.610 --> 00:03:48.069 beautiful part of, uh, part of the country. And 00:03:48.069 --> 00:03:52.110 my family's been here for, uh, generations and, 00:03:52.189 --> 00:03:57.030 uh, uh, we are Dakota and Cree, uh, and Soto, 00:03:57.090 --> 00:04:00.870 uh, family. So, uh, we have a bit of a mix of, 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:03.750 of different, uh. tribal affiliations here but 00:04:03.750 --> 00:04:07.770 uh it's good to sort of have that experience 00:04:07.770 --> 00:04:10.949 from uh the different tribes in the territory 00:04:10.949 --> 00:04:14.610 all plains tribes and uh we're able to bring 00:04:14.610 --> 00:04:16.910 of course a lot of those teachings into the work 00:04:16.910 --> 00:04:21.410 that we we do as an organization uh growing up 00:04:21.410 --> 00:04:25.509 was there somebody or something that shaped your 00:04:25.509 --> 00:04:29.910 values was there a moment in time where you you 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:33.939 decided on uh a path of business and finance? 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.180 Yeah, well, it was, I was actually raised by 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:44.339 my grandfather. So he's a very hardworking farmer 00:04:44.339 --> 00:04:49.480 and raised my brother and I. And so his work 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:53.500 ethic is untapped. It's just, you know, he's 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:55.600 constantly working on something. If he wasn't 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.360 in the field, he was working on. fixing things 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:03.300 or helping in the community. So he really drove 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:07.759 that sense of community responsibility into us 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:12.860 as a family and ensured that we earned everything 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:16.660 that, you know, we gained within our family. 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.540 And so I think just that work ethic from him 00:05:19.540 --> 00:05:24.139 and he always put education first. He recognized 00:05:24.139 --> 00:05:27.449 that. You know, he wasn't able to get a more 00:05:27.449 --> 00:05:30.050 formal education, but he was going to ensure 00:05:30.050 --> 00:05:33.730 that his kids and his grandkids had the appropriate 00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:38.589 education. So he's probably, you know, my biggest 00:05:38.589 --> 00:05:55.720 mentor and person I looked up to the most. you 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:58.600 know, post -secondary. And I've always wanted 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:03.439 to be a CEO, an Indigenous CEO of an Indigenous 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:09.379 firm and be able to help community. And, you 00:06:09.379 --> 00:06:11.759 know, things have shifted a little bit now that, 00:06:11.779 --> 00:06:14.300 you know, I get to do this as an entrepreneur 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:18.300 and, you know, and still focus on the things 00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:22.180 that, you know, I value most and being able to 00:06:22.180 --> 00:06:25.660 help. within the community. So I get the best 00:06:25.660 --> 00:06:29.920 of both worlds in the role I'm in now. It's amazing 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.660 how often grandparents come up in our conversations, 00:06:33.819 --> 00:06:37.860 isn't it, Mark? Yes, it certainly is. Big influence 00:06:37.860 --> 00:06:43.759 for everyone. And you, Thomas, started out in 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.079 the non -Indigenous business world, talked about 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:51.829 RBC and other positions. What challenges? did 00:06:51.829 --> 00:06:56.029 you face as an Indigenous business person in 00:06:56.029 --> 00:07:01.250 a non -Indigenous business world? Well, I think 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:05.490 I wouldn't say, well, I guess there was challenges, 00:07:05.689 --> 00:07:12.670 but I think I was a bit more naive sort of going 00:07:12.670 --> 00:07:16.310 into the banking world. I had a number of opportunities 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:20.610 to work for several. financial institutions and 00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:24.389 just had sort of my pick of the litter of where 00:07:24.389 --> 00:07:27.670 I wanted to go. But it was actually a story that 00:07:27.670 --> 00:07:32.850 was told from someone from RBC that sort of caught 00:07:32.850 --> 00:07:35.589 my interest. And, you know, they spoke to me 00:07:35.589 --> 00:07:38.490 more about the impact that they were creating 00:07:38.490 --> 00:07:41.470 in the community in working directly with First 00:07:41.470 --> 00:07:44.430 Nations and Métis communities and supporting 00:07:44.430 --> 00:07:47.230 them with banking. Because, you know, I thought, 00:07:47.310 --> 00:07:50.350 well, we're, open up some accounts, help with 00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:52.470 some lending, and, you know, hopefully things 00:07:52.470 --> 00:07:56.170 go well. But they spoke more about, you know, 00:07:56.209 --> 00:08:00.769 how do we help make change? How do we, you know, 00:08:00.790 --> 00:08:04.189 challenge the status quo of sort of what's happening 00:08:04.189 --> 00:08:07.189 and how do we create more economic opportunities? 00:08:07.230 --> 00:08:09.670 So I always had that in the back of my mind, 00:08:09.689 --> 00:08:12.290 sort of going into RBC, and I didn't realize 00:08:12.290 --> 00:08:14.870 there were certain rules about, you know, not... 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:19.879 reaching out to your more superior leaders within 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:23.699 the organization. And I often found myself emailing 00:08:23.699 --> 00:08:27.259 senior executives from time to time just because 00:08:27.259 --> 00:08:31.120 I was curious about some of the strategies that 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:34.460 they were embarking upon. So I think that helped 00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:38.759 to sort of highlight my interest in sort of supporting 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.940 the institution and supporting some of the strategy 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:45.129 around how do we How do we help more First Nations 00:08:45.129 --> 00:08:47.190 across the country? How do we remove some of 00:08:47.190 --> 00:08:51.169 the bottlenecks? And so I was able to be a part 00:08:51.169 --> 00:08:54.970 of some of the very early stages of the legal 00:08:54.970 --> 00:08:59.190 expense financing, had the opportunity to influence 00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:03.950 some of the Indigenous engagement strategy with 00:09:03.950 --> 00:09:08.750 the executive team. And I think just, you know, 00:09:08.750 --> 00:09:13.299 in that experience alone. allowed me to do something 00:09:13.299 --> 00:09:16.279 a little different. And the goal always was to 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.340 try to help our communities. The initial goal 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:22.379 was to make sure that they know how to access 00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:25.100 banking services, know how to leverage banking 00:09:25.100 --> 00:09:27.940 services to the best of their ability as a community. 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:31.960 But the next sort of stage of growth was how 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:34.480 do we create economic opportunity where they 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:39.179 actually have capital to access to be able to 00:09:39.179 --> 00:09:43.330 go. into investments. And so that's sort of where 00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:47.889 things started. And then being able to move into 00:09:47.889 --> 00:09:50.509 the career around Indigenous investment allowed 00:09:50.509 --> 00:09:53.610 me to get more into the weeds around why are 00:09:53.610 --> 00:09:56.830 things not working? Why do our communities struggle 00:09:56.830 --> 00:10:01.690 to find success in business? What are some of 00:10:01.690 --> 00:10:05.049 the policy factors that are affecting their ability 00:10:05.049 --> 00:10:08.820 to be successful in business? So I think being 00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:10.759 in the weeds for a number of years and being 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:12.480 able to work through some of those challenges 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:16.379 has really opened my eyes to the things that 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:19.899 we really need to start to focus on. And, you 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:23.019 know, we often create a lot more complexities 00:10:23.019 --> 00:10:26.700 around Indigenous participation in business when, 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.080 you know, the answers are already there. The 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:31.860 business community has already been in this space 00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:36.860 for so long, but we continue to. You know, people 00:10:36.860 --> 00:10:39.320 are good intention, but sometimes they create 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:43.259 rules and policies and programs that sometimes 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:45.480 don't make sense and sometimes actually create 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.460 more barriers for First Nations participation. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.659 And so, you know, we have to be able to sort 00:10:52.659 --> 00:10:58.220 of work through and be, well, I would say just 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:00.940 use more common sense around how we approach 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:04.080 investment. You know, when we think about investing 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.659 on large scale, well, you need private equity, 00:11:06.740 --> 00:11:09.220 right? And that's the space we're in. And, you 00:11:09.220 --> 00:11:11.639 know, there's not many of us in terms of, you 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:14.240 know, Indigenous private equity folks. And so 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:20.500 it's our job to sort of trailblaze and pioneer 00:11:20.500 --> 00:11:24.340 in the space and make sure that we're educating 00:11:24.340 --> 00:11:28.700 people along the way so that we're not being 00:11:28.700 --> 00:11:32.070 given a set of rules that don't make sense. we 00:11:32.070 --> 00:11:33.950 need to be able to challenge some of those rules 00:11:33.950 --> 00:11:37.830 and make things a little easier so that future 00:11:37.830 --> 00:11:41.610 Indigenous fund managers will have a lot more 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:45.490 success and not have as many challenges that 00:11:45.490 --> 00:11:49.490 we've had sort of getting started. Just before 00:11:49.490 --> 00:11:51.750 we get into the discussion of flowing river, 00:11:51.909 --> 00:11:56.330 you have a lot of operator experience. Yeah. 00:11:57.469 --> 00:12:00.029 Can you share with our listeners and viewers 00:12:00.029 --> 00:12:01.649 some of that? Because I'm sure they'll find that 00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:04.409 fascinating, the approach you took to grow Indigenous 00:12:04.409 --> 00:12:07.610 businesses in Saskatchewan and beyond. Yeah, 00:12:07.629 --> 00:12:11.129 well, I mean, not having access to capital. And 00:12:11.129 --> 00:12:13.909 I think that's one of the more exciting things 00:12:13.909 --> 00:12:16.769 that, you know, an adventure that we're on is 00:12:16.769 --> 00:12:18.809 that, you know, now we're in a space where we 00:12:18.809 --> 00:12:21.309 can actually raise capital and have access to 00:12:21.309 --> 00:12:24.690 capital. But for the past number of years, I've... 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:27.169 done this without access to capital. You know, 00:12:27.210 --> 00:12:30.049 the communities we worked with all committed 00:12:30.049 --> 00:12:33.909 to a $10 investment each. So that's 11 First 00:12:33.909 --> 00:12:38.370 Nations putting in $10 each. But being able to 00:12:38.370 --> 00:12:40.950 leverage relationships, being able to leverage 00:12:40.950 --> 00:12:45.509 and influence policy changes, being able to work 00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:47.870 through some of the government programming, as 00:12:47.870 --> 00:12:51.309 frustrating as it can be sometimes, we had to 00:12:51.309 --> 00:12:53.289 leverage everything that was at our fingertips. 00:12:53.429 --> 00:13:00.059 And so I think just having good management teams 00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:03.820 was one of the critical components of us being 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:08.580 successful, but also having patience. Because 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:12.960 working with First Nations, the social needs 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:15.580 are often very, very high. And so a lot of our 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:17.980 communities want instant cash flow as soon as 00:13:17.980 --> 00:13:22.629 we invest in a new company or acquire. um when 00:13:22.629 --> 00:13:24.830 you know in the investment world we know it's 00:13:24.830 --> 00:13:27.429 a bit of a buy and hold and allow that cash flow 00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:32.070 to grow and reinvest and and continue to uh you 00:13:32.070 --> 00:13:34.529 know make your your capital programs work well 00:13:34.529 --> 00:13:37.990 um and grow your teams right so you can grow 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:40.669 and scale and continue to see success that way 00:13:40.669 --> 00:13:45.610 um so i i think you know just some of that uh 00:13:45.610 --> 00:13:48.919 operating experience being boots on the ground 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.559 working through some of those challenges being 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:57.340 very strict about how we work and grow Indigenous 00:13:57.340 --> 00:14:01.580 capacity with my non -Indigenous partners was 00:14:01.580 --> 00:14:04.799 very critical for us to see that success and 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:09.080 so now being able to again bring it on to this 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.659 side now where you know we will have access to 00:14:11.659 --> 00:14:15.470 capital plus we have the playbook in place. That 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:17.909 should ensure that we're a lot more successful 00:14:17.909 --> 00:14:23.129 a lot quicker and be able to hopefully model 00:14:23.129 --> 00:14:26.549 this for others again, other Indigenous investors 00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:30.870 in the future. Hopefully they'll be able to take 00:14:30.870 --> 00:14:35.230 that torch and run a lot further. So can you 00:14:35.230 --> 00:14:38.429 also then tell the story of Flowing River Capital? 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:44.039 How long it took you from idea to set up some 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.059 of the challenges along the way and story for 00:14:46.059 --> 00:14:48.379 other listeners to appreciate what you've been 00:14:48.379 --> 00:14:53.279 through? Yeah, well, it's an interesting story. 00:14:53.340 --> 00:14:59.360 I mean, the four partners, we're actually all 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.940 friends from university. We've all went to the 00:15:01.940 --> 00:15:05.100 same business school, University of Regina slash 00:15:05.100 --> 00:15:09.450 First Nations University. So Cadmus and I, Cadmus 00:15:09.450 --> 00:15:11.710 Delorme, who's former chief of Cowessess First 00:15:11.710 --> 00:15:15.289 Nation, very successful time spent as a chief 00:15:15.289 --> 00:15:18.409 and really put a focus on economic opportunities 00:15:18.409 --> 00:15:22.330 for his community. We are best friends. We've 00:15:22.330 --> 00:15:24.690 actually been in student politics together and 00:15:24.690 --> 00:15:27.429 did a number of things over the years, but we're 00:15:27.429 --> 00:15:30.250 very, very close. Our families are very close. 00:15:32.719 --> 00:15:35.840 And we've always supported each other's careers 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.639 as we've sort of gone along. And then we have 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:44.480 Tyler Willicks, who's, you know, one of the best 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:48.899 originators in, I would say, in the province. 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:54.080 And he's been able to work in the investment 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.970 space as well, more than M &A. uh sort of focus 00:15:57.970 --> 00:16:02.070 and has helped a number of organizations in saskatchewan 00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:05.950 go public so he has you know some of that experience 00:16:05.950 --> 00:16:08.889 and again student politics brought us together 00:16:08.889 --> 00:16:13.649 while we were students um and then we have eric 00:16:13.649 --> 00:16:18.590 clark who's uh our real technical uh private 00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:21.990 equity guy who comes from that space who's worked 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:25.370 his whole career there and um even as a student 00:16:25.370 --> 00:16:29.129 he was a pretty astute investor created the first 00:16:29.129 --> 00:16:33.909 investment club at the university and uh has 00:16:33.909 --> 00:16:36.909 been very successful in that space and so you 00:16:36.909 --> 00:16:39.750 know he has all the technical uh capacity as 00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:44.629 our our cfo and uh you know bringing the four 00:16:44.629 --> 00:16:48.409 of us together uh bringing both the the non -indigenous 00:16:48.409 --> 00:16:52.580 side of the uh their experience and and their 00:16:52.580 --> 00:16:55.340 relationships that they have within community 00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:59.460 and then bringing you know cadmus and i's more 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:02.019 indigenous focused experience into the space 00:17:02.019 --> 00:17:04.380 i think is something that's very very unique 00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:08.880 to our business model and something that i don't 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.619 see reflected in a lot of other organizations 00:17:12.619 --> 00:17:17.019 across the country but having that that close 00:17:17.019 --> 00:17:20.690 relationship over the years and being able to 00:17:20.690 --> 00:17:24.890 sort of go out and experience and build careers 00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:28.369 successful careers and now coming back as partners 00:17:28.369 --> 00:17:33.549 you know it's been a little over two years now 00:17:33.549 --> 00:17:36.890 that we've sort of been working on this and it's 00:17:36.890 --> 00:17:39.789 always been an idea but now being able to sort 00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:44.220 of fully move into the space and Doing it at 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:47.799 a very interesting time in economics with all 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:49.759 the things that are going on in the world has 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:54.920 been interesting. But I think just with all of 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:58.160 the changes and the focus on economic reconciliation, 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.440 I think it's an absolute perfect time for us 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:06.380 to say, look, this is a real time for us to stop. 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:09.680 Assuming that Indigenous people don't have the 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:11.779 capacity to do this, we do have the capacity. 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:15.660 um we just need that opportunity to to demonstrate 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:20.000 that that we we are here and uh we can build 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.900 successful companies um as a people and so having 00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:26.960 those right partners around the table allows 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.240 us to do that and it's been an exciting journey 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.200 so far and i mean even without our fund we've 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.480 already made some investments and you know started 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.099 some other companies just to demonstrate that 00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:41.579 you know we're We're a train that's moving and, 00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:45.140 you know, we're not stopping. So we're not letting 00:18:45.140 --> 00:18:47.480 things slow us down. We just, you know, keep 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.839 finding ways to keep making more and more investments. 00:18:49.940 --> 00:18:53.980 And once the fund is fully up and rolling, you 00:18:53.980 --> 00:18:56.119 know, we're going to have access to capital now 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.700 to really unlock a lot of the other big opportunities 00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:04.160 we have in the pipeline. Yeah, congratulations 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.539 again on getting launched. It's, as you said, 00:19:06.619 --> 00:19:11.369 it's not an easy time. especially for first funds. 00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:15.430 Have you raised new money at this point, or is 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:20.490 it the founders' capital that you're working 00:19:20.490 --> 00:19:24.589 with? We do have commitments from several institutional 00:19:24.589 --> 00:19:29.230 investors, and so we're sitting at around $35 00:19:29.230 --> 00:19:32.410 million raised. Our hope is to try to get to 00:19:32.410 --> 00:19:35.069 first close at $50 million. We were going to 00:19:35.069 --> 00:19:38.869 try to close more at $100 million, I think closing 00:19:38.869 --> 00:19:43.410 at $50 million on our first close, we'll be able 00:19:43.410 --> 00:19:46.970 to just immediately demonstrate, here's how successful 00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:51.549 of a portfolio or a pipeline that we have in 00:19:51.549 --> 00:19:56.470 place. And hopefully that will encourage more 00:19:56.470 --> 00:19:59.589 folks to come on board as we push to that $100 00:19:59.589 --> 00:20:03.470 million mark. And like I said, the pipeline, 00:20:03.569 --> 00:20:05.710 the opportunities that are coming to us, these 00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:08.460 are... For most investment firms, it would be 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:11.579 considered rare gems. And for us, it feels like 00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:13.740 we're getting these rare gems on a pretty regular 00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:18.940 occasion. So it's been very exciting to see these 00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:20.799 types of opportunities sort of hit our desk. 00:20:21.859 --> 00:20:25.579 What's the investment strategy? It sounds like 00:20:25.579 --> 00:20:30.009 it's not just passive investments. The main thesis 00:20:30.009 --> 00:20:34.150 is to acquire companies that are in good alignment 00:20:34.150 --> 00:20:36.549 to the Indigenous procurement policies that exist 00:20:36.549 --> 00:20:41.380 across the country. billions of dollars in commitment 00:20:41.380 --> 00:20:45.380 that either governments, resource sector, utilities, 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.339 service sector, they're all committing to economic 00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:54.099 reconciliation in some form. And the majority 00:20:54.099 --> 00:20:57.220 of those organizations have committed to a specific 00:20:57.220 --> 00:21:01.720 spend around Indigenous businesses. And so they're 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.579 really looking at their supply chains. And so 00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.980 the model that I've always focused on has always 00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:11.759 been well, how do we acquire good companies that 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:16.240 are in those supply chains? I've, you know, out 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.960 of sort of necessity, I've had to just create 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.440 new companies based on the previous model was 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.059 creating new companies so that we can access 00:21:25.059 --> 00:21:27.420 those supply chains. But now having access to 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:30.380 capital, now we can actually just go out and 00:21:30.380 --> 00:21:34.480 buy very well run companies, very well managed 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:38.930 companies. um indigenize them and bring our playbook 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:41.930 into those organizations and then go back out 00:21:41.930 --> 00:21:45.349 to market and share with our uh customer base 00:21:45.349 --> 00:21:48.390 um that these companies that you know have already 00:21:48.390 --> 00:21:50.789 been in their supply chain have already had tremendous 00:21:50.789 --> 00:21:54.750 success are going to be um you know indigenized 00:21:54.750 --> 00:21:57.769 overnight and we are going to come back with 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.619 a bit of a different approach on how we develop 00:22:02.619 --> 00:22:05.460 Indigenous capacity more strategically within 00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:08.900 those organizations. And, I mean, I do get questions 00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:11.859 sometimes because folks think that, you know, 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.859 we're going to come in and change 50 % of the 00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:17.900 staff over to Indigenous people overnight. And 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:23.160 I tell them that's not recommended. You know, 00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:26.910 there is... you know a good mixture of how we 00:22:26.910 --> 00:22:29.869 do that over time and and build indigenous capacity 00:22:29.869 --> 00:22:32.970 in those spaces because a lot of these companies 00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:36.029 have very highly technical requirements and so 00:22:36.029 --> 00:22:38.750 it takes a little bit of time for us to develop 00:22:38.750 --> 00:22:42.789 indigenous talent well in that space and you 00:22:42.789 --> 00:22:45.390 know there's been a recipe that has made those 00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:49.329 businesses successful to start out and so you 00:22:49.329 --> 00:22:52.240 don't want to um hurt that recipe too too much 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.880 or mix in new ingredients that affects its ability 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.960 to be successful as a business we always got 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.420 to focus on the business's success first and 00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:05.779 work within those teams work within the hr teams 00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:08.279 to develop the indigenous capacity over time 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:13.009 that's always been sort of the focus and It's 00:23:13.009 --> 00:23:16.609 been how I've approached growing Indigenous talent 00:23:16.609 --> 00:23:20.410 in other companies, and it's worked well for 00:23:20.410 --> 00:23:25.029 us. And I often tell our customers to have patience 00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:28.410 because it's some of their expectations. It's 00:23:28.410 --> 00:23:30.349 just part of some of the policies that exist 00:23:30.349 --> 00:23:33.150 when they're going through RFPs. They expect 00:23:33.150 --> 00:23:36.289 you to have a very high percentage of Indigenous 00:23:36.289 --> 00:23:40.990 participation from staff, and sometimes that's 00:23:40.990 --> 00:23:45.190 not realistic. um i often tell my my non -indigenous 00:23:45.190 --> 00:23:47.309 leaders i said you leave that conversation to 00:23:47.309 --> 00:23:50.529 me um because they need to they need to hear 00:23:50.529 --> 00:23:53.849 it from me that you know your expectations are 00:23:53.849 --> 00:23:56.130 unrealistic sometimes so these are just some 00:23:56.130 --> 00:23:57.950 of the things that the challenges you know from 00:23:57.950 --> 00:24:00.029 an operations perspective that we often face 00:24:00.029 --> 00:24:04.990 as indigenous businesses and um We sometimes 00:24:04.990 --> 00:24:08.450 forget about the end goal. It's the end goal 00:24:08.450 --> 00:24:10.970 here is to build successful Indigenous -owned 00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:13.809 businesses. And that doesn't necessarily mean, 00:24:13.829 --> 00:24:17.210 you know, having a 50 or 100 % Indigenous talent 00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:22.289 pool. It means, you know, making sure that our 00:24:22.289 --> 00:24:26.289 values and our systems and our operations, our 00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:29.549 work culture understands that they are working 00:24:29.549 --> 00:24:31.769 for an Indigenous organization and that our values 00:24:31.769 --> 00:24:36.220 are really shining through. And I think when 00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:38.559 you've bought up some of these primarily non 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:40.960 -Indigenous firms, if I understand correctly, 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:45.420 they also get access to new opportunities because 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:48.000 they are Indigenous owned. So it's also an opportunity 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.839 for growth for these firms who may have been 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:54.200 very comfortable business, but restricted in 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:57.259 terms of future growth. Is that correct? Absolutely. 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:03.240 That's one of the things that our CFO... has 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:06.079 shared you know when when you look at you know 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.960 traditional opportunities and in private equity 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:13.279 you know the strategy when you're going in is 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:16.220 um you know you you take some equity ownership 00:25:16.220 --> 00:25:18.759 you use some capital to help with some of the 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:23.720 growth um and you just get uh you know you build 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.519 some more efficiencies in the business to try 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:32.170 to churn a better value for the company. But 00:25:32.170 --> 00:25:35.490 in our case, we can actually grow top line revenue 00:25:35.490 --> 00:25:42.230 growth because we would be opening up the portfolio 00:25:42.230 --> 00:25:49.009 to new clients, new relationships. And we have 00:25:49.009 --> 00:25:52.930 a pretty significant relationship with several 00:25:52.930 --> 00:25:57.660 very large corporate organizations with governments 00:25:57.660 --> 00:26:01.019 and I mean our network between the four of us 00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:06.400 is quite vast and you know it's not difficult 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:08.259 for us to be able to pick up the phone with an 00:26:08.259 --> 00:26:11.480 executive and be able to explain what it is that 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:14.319 we're doing and what new companies we have that 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:17.440 can that are participating in their supply chains 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.819 for us to be able to sort of navigate those waters 00:26:19.819 --> 00:26:23.319 a little quicker. Rather than showing up with 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:28.539 a brand new business and really having to pound 00:26:28.539 --> 00:26:31.980 pavement to try to get some new contracts, those 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:35.720 relationships are already established. And again, 00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:40.319 having the ability to buy companies that already 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.140 have an established reputation of doing good 00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:48.140 work, it just enhances our ability to do more. 00:26:48.589 --> 00:26:51.910 and be able to negotiate differently on how we 00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:55.369 approach some of the opportunities with the clients. 00:26:56.309 --> 00:26:59.049 And will you be looking at businesses across 00:26:59.049 --> 00:27:03.490 the prairies and beyond or primarily Saskatchewan 00:27:03.490 --> 00:27:09.329 or going north? So a lot of our strength is in 00:27:09.329 --> 00:27:13.369 Western Canada, just given the companies that 00:27:13.369 --> 00:27:17.539 we currently work with. But there are opportunities 00:27:17.539 --> 00:27:20.079 right now in our pipeline where they are outside 00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:23.579 of the prairie provinces. Obviously, you want 00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:25.779 to play to your strengths, especially as a new 00:27:25.779 --> 00:27:30.240 fund manager. But like I said, there are opportunities 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:35.740 even outside of the prairie provinces that we 00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:40.059 have access to. And, you know, we do have a couple 00:27:40.059 --> 00:27:43.759 of investment opportunities that, you know. go 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:48.799 even beyond Canadian borders. And so very excited 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.900 about those opportunities. And as long as we 00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:55.279 can see that we're bringing tremendous value 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.480 to that business, it's something that we'll likely 00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:02.359 pursue. Is there a sector focus, Thomas, or is 00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:08.279 it broadly anything procurement related? It's 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.759 pretty broad just because the procurement requirements 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:17.640 and I mean obviously because historically the 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.980 sectors that have really been advancing Indigenous 00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:24.720 participation has been sectors like resource 00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:28.140 sector and I often get this sometimes from some 00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:31.220 of the other fund managers when they ask about 00:28:33.630 --> 00:28:36.269 our participation in the resource sector. And 00:28:36.269 --> 00:28:38.970 of course, some of them have rules about participating 00:28:38.970 --> 00:28:43.329 in the resource sector. But I tell them you might 00:28:43.329 --> 00:28:47.690 want to rethink the policy there because that 00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:52.210 is where participation started for Indigenous 00:28:52.210 --> 00:28:57.450 businesses. A lot of it is based out of some 00:28:57.450 --> 00:28:59.910 of the policies and the license to be able to 00:28:59.910 --> 00:29:02.769 do business in certain territories. So impact 00:29:02.769 --> 00:29:06.130 benefit agreements play a big part in Indigenous 00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:08.529 participation in the resource sector. And so 00:29:08.529 --> 00:29:11.809 those organizations have been in this space for 00:29:11.809 --> 00:29:15.009 a very long time. They've pioneered their own 00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:18.809 policies on Indigenous participation. So when 00:29:18.809 --> 00:29:22.390 we think about, well, who's the most mature sector 00:29:22.390 --> 00:29:25.950 that will be willing to support more Indigenous 00:29:25.950 --> 00:29:27.910 participation, it's going to be the resource 00:29:27.910 --> 00:29:30.299 sector. And then you're likely going to have 00:29:30.299 --> 00:29:33.420 government and utilities as sort of, you know, 00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:37.740 your second line of sectors. And we're now starting 00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:41.859 to see more financial institutions, service type 00:29:41.859 --> 00:29:44.859 of organizations, manufacturing. You're starting 00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:48.000 to see them start to make some commitments around 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.019 Indigenous participation. But everything right 00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:55.099 now, our greatest strength is in the resource 00:29:55.099 --> 00:29:57.839 sector. And so, again, we've got to play to our 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:00.859 strengths. And I think another one that's really 00:30:00.859 --> 00:30:03.720 emerging, and especially with the political climate, 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.559 has been defense. But that, again, ties back 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.380 to some of the federal government's commitment 00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:15.000 around the Indigenous spin. You also have another 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.539 initiative called One Hoop, which is a consulting 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.880 firm. Why don't you tell us a little bit about 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:27.119 that? Yeah, thanks, Mark. You know, when we formed 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:31.660 Flowing Over Capital, it wasn't actually the 00:30:31.660 --> 00:30:34.960 intention to go out and create a consulting firm. 00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:40.140 But when we started to sort of talk about what's 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:43.480 actually happening in community, what's happening, 00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:49.259 you know, across the country and, you know. We 00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:52.240 looked at our sphere of influence as Indigenous 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:57.579 leaders across the country and how do we move 00:30:57.579 --> 00:31:02.119 the needle on economic reconciliation? How do 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:04.759 we move the needle on building better relationships 00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:08.180 with Indigenous communities? And I think just 00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:12.740 the experience that both myself and Cadmus bring 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:18.000 to the table. We're connectors. We've helped 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.079 to connect some pretty significant relationships. 00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:26.779 And we've also influenced a lot of major policy 00:31:26.779 --> 00:31:30.259 changes across the country. I've been involved 00:31:30.259 --> 00:31:32.359 in the commitment with the federal government 00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:35.859 on the 5%. I was part of the team that got it 00:31:35.859 --> 00:31:39.200 across the finish line. And, you know, Cadmus 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:43.160 set some pretty unprecedented policies around 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:47.339 child welfare, around some of the unmarked graves. 00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:53.180 And so we've had some sort of historical things 00:31:53.180 --> 00:31:56.059 that we've done in our past that have helped 00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:59.019 to move the needle. And so when we spoke about 00:31:59.019 --> 00:32:02.779 the work that needs to be done with Indigenous 00:32:02.779 --> 00:32:06.920 private equity, we said, look, there's... There 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:09.119 is a lot of work and a lot of policy work that 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.319 needs to continue to happen in order for that 00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:15.200 to be successful. And so the job there was, you 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.059 know, create a consulting firm that can go out 00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:22.400 there and influence the market and help to build 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:27.279 a better understanding of why Indigenous engagement 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:31.549 is so important for. not only corporate, but 00:32:31.549 --> 00:32:35.349 for government, for our own communities to be 00:32:35.349 --> 00:32:38.529 able to participate, being able to have some 00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:40.750 insight around some of the challenges that they're 00:32:40.750 --> 00:32:46.250 facing and be able to build a team. And so we 00:32:46.250 --> 00:32:51.329 needed more young people to have a place to hang 00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:54.410 their hat and be able to take some of the experience 00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:57.789 that we've gained as leaders and be able to run 00:32:57.789 --> 00:33:01.059 with that in the community. and hopefully build 00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:03.880 them up as leaders. And it's a bit of training 00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.099 grounds for them to start out there and hopefully 00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:10.680 come and participate in other parts of the business 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:14.259 as we continue to invest in more and more companies 00:33:14.259 --> 00:33:18.859 and more industries. And so we felt that that 00:33:18.859 --> 00:33:26.160 was really important. And it was meant to help 00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.549 to continue to... move the needle in terms of 00:33:29.549 --> 00:33:32.569 more active participation with, whether it's 00:33:32.569 --> 00:33:35.730 Indigenous community or ourselves in economic 00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:40.309 opportunities across the country. Great, thank 00:33:40.309 --> 00:33:43.049 you. And if you haven't already, with some of 00:33:43.049 --> 00:33:45.069 your acquisitions, been dealing with foreign 00:33:45.069 --> 00:33:47.690 investors or foreign -owned companies, I would 00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:51.269 assume that's in your radar going ahead. How 00:33:51.269 --> 00:33:54.170 would you be talking to a foreign investor? What 00:33:54.170 --> 00:34:00.069 makes... your firm differentiated? Yeah, I think 00:34:00.069 --> 00:34:04.450 what's really important is for a foreign investor 00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:07.470 to sort of look at placing any of their capital, 00:34:07.569 --> 00:34:11.090 let's say with a flowing river, they need to 00:34:11.090 --> 00:34:15.170 know that we know what's happening in terms of 00:34:15.170 --> 00:34:17.369 the boots on the ground. They need to know that 00:34:17.369 --> 00:34:20.559 we at least have a sphere of influence. So that 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:25.820 when we show up and talk about our investment 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:29.639 thesis, that it's not something that's just out 00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:34.159 of thin air. We've actually lived it. We breathe 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:38.139 this work every day. We've influenced it. We've 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:41.980 had success. And when we deal with challenges, 00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:45.380 we're able to... work through those challenges 00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:48.699 very quickly because of that level of experience. 00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:53.079 And so we're not just talking about, you know, 00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:57.159 how to look at Indigenous investment. We do it, 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:01.619 right? And we have that experience. And so knowing 00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:08.710 that our influence as leaders... um goes um even 00:35:08.710 --> 00:35:12.610 beyond just being an uh you know a fund manager 00:35:12.610 --> 00:35:16.349 that we have actually have the ability to influence 00:35:16.349 --> 00:35:19.690 significant government policy changes as leaders 00:35:19.690 --> 00:35:23.110 that is something that i think fund managers 00:35:23.110 --> 00:35:26.550 just don't have access to right or they don't 00:35:26.550 --> 00:35:29.409 uh you know some of the fund managers may not 00:35:29.409 --> 00:35:31.530 have the sphere of influence with customers the 00:35:31.530 --> 00:35:35.329 way that we do So that is very unique to our 00:35:35.329 --> 00:35:40.570 approach. And so when we talk about finding success 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:44.469 with the portfolio of companies that, you know, 00:35:44.469 --> 00:35:47.190 we'll invest in, we have a game plan in place. 00:35:47.210 --> 00:35:51.570 And, you know, we wouldn't choose something just 00:35:51.570 --> 00:35:55.150 because it looks flashy. We're choosing businesses 00:35:55.150 --> 00:35:57.949 that actually make really good sense for us and 00:35:57.949 --> 00:36:00.210 that we have our greatest strengths working for 00:36:00.210 --> 00:36:05.460 us. able to play into that network that we have. 00:36:05.659 --> 00:36:08.360 So I think that's what really differentiates 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:15.159 us as new fund managers. Thank you. And as we 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:18.260 head into the autumn, all Canadians are expecting 00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:20.239 to see something different over the next few 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:24.079 months in terms of how the country works together 00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:26.579 and what projects are initiated. Do you have 00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:29.179 any perspective on that that you'd like to share? 00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:33.050 None of us have a crystal ball. But you're on 00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:34.469 the ground in the prairies, the heart of the 00:36:34.469 --> 00:36:41.469 country. So what's your view on? So the big things 00:36:41.469 --> 00:36:44.090 that I'm seeing right now, obviously everyone's 00:36:44.090 --> 00:36:47.550 talking about the loan guarantees that have been 00:36:47.550 --> 00:36:50.750 committed to. I know a lot of the organizations 00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:52.650 are still working through some of their policies 00:36:52.650 --> 00:36:57.150 and approaches to how we leverage those opportunities 00:36:57.150 --> 00:37:03.110 more effectively in community. We've been having 00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:06.909 our constant conversations because with the investments 00:37:06.909 --> 00:37:09.309 that we make, we do want First Nations to be 00:37:09.309 --> 00:37:12.710 investing alongside us so that they can learn 00:37:12.710 --> 00:37:16.050 from our approach and that they can someday, 00:37:16.349 --> 00:37:20.010 you know, our hope is that, you know, when we 00:37:20.010 --> 00:37:24.070 go out and we invest capital with our LPs, that 00:37:24.070 --> 00:37:26.769 eventually these nations will take over those 00:37:26.769 --> 00:37:31.750 investments. at a much higher ownership percentage 00:37:31.750 --> 00:37:37.969 and be able to fully transfer that capacity over. 00:37:38.190 --> 00:37:43.030 And so I think with those opportunities, we need 00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:45.670 to be very good at what's happening in the market, 00:37:45.730 --> 00:37:49.110 which are loan guarantees. And so our team is 00:37:49.110 --> 00:37:53.210 working through those processes to ensure that. 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:56.039 When we are looking at new investment opportunities, 00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:58.300 we're also working directly with communities 00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:04.219 to bring them into the equity ownership and have 00:38:04.219 --> 00:38:07.460 them learn for us over the next seven to 10 years 00:38:07.460 --> 00:38:12.159 as we build a successful business together, but 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:16.119 also look at our exit over time. And hopefully 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:18.579 at that point, those nations are in a much better 00:38:18.579 --> 00:38:23.530 position to... um have stronger teams uh to have 00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:25.630 the oversight to have the management capacity 00:38:25.630 --> 00:38:30.849 um to manage those uh uh portfolios of companies 00:38:30.849 --> 00:38:35.610 uh in the future so um yeah that that you know 00:38:35.610 --> 00:38:38.409 crystal ball wise i i think just continue to 00:38:38.409 --> 00:38:43.570 um monitor the uh loan guarantees and it's uh 00:38:43.570 --> 00:38:48.119 it's a fantastic way for communities to actively 00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:51.719 participate in the economy and do it at a much 00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:55.139 more substantial scale because of the size and 00:38:55.139 --> 00:38:58.139 scale of infrastructure projects and just because 00:38:58.139 --> 00:39:00.780 of the way that capital is moving in the markets. 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:05.679 There's not as much capital available, especially 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:10.489 in Western Canada right now. You know, things 00:39:10.489 --> 00:39:13.289 like resource investment, resource sector investment. 00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:16.389 So the only way that these organizations are 00:39:16.389 --> 00:39:18.670 going to gain access to any capital is through, 00:39:18.769 --> 00:39:22.429 you know, looking at the capital that nations 00:39:22.429 --> 00:39:24.030 will be able to access through the loan guarantee 00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:27.889 program. Personally curious, Thomas, what keeps 00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:31.949 you grounded? You've got a lot of balls in the 00:39:31.949 --> 00:39:36.590 air, but what keeps you grounded? What do you 00:39:36.590 --> 00:39:40.460 like to do for fun or to? As a hobby, how do 00:39:40.460 --> 00:39:46.559 you spend your spare time? Well, we're a powwow 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:49.840 family and we're very involved in sports. So 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:53.519 all throughout the summer, if you're not seeing 00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:57.780 me in the boardroom or in meetings, on the weekends, 00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:01.619 I'm competing at powwows across the prairies 00:40:01.619 --> 00:40:05.980 and into the U .S. So our family is very, very 00:40:05.980 --> 00:40:09.719 involved in powwow. And it's our way of grounding 00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:12.619 ourselves and just being in community. And it 00:40:12.619 --> 00:40:16.500 also helps us teach our kids a number of lessons 00:40:16.500 --> 00:40:20.380 and being able to, you know, I had this conversation 00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:24.119 with my wife actually on the drive home the other 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:26.940 night. And it was a very late drive home. And 00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:29.840 we were just saying, you know, it's a very different 00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.070 feeling. being a part of powwow because we we 00:40:33.070 --> 00:40:36.809 form relationships and we form new families with 00:40:36.809 --> 00:40:38.849 folks that are not our you know directly connected 00:40:38.849 --> 00:40:41.409 to our bloodlines but we we create these family 00:40:41.409 --> 00:40:46.429 relationships with folks right across indian 00:40:46.429 --> 00:40:51.889 country and it's been very good for us as a family 00:40:51.889 --> 00:40:56.650 and my my oldest is now you know technically 00:40:56.650 --> 00:40:59.579 an adult and You know, she was powing for her 00:40:59.579 --> 00:41:03.340 first time on her own this summer. And, you know, 00:41:03.380 --> 00:41:06.019 we had a bit of worries. Is that drumming or 00:41:06.019 --> 00:41:11.599 dancing? Dancing. We all dance. But she went 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:13.539 out on her own this summer with her boyfriend. 00:41:13.659 --> 00:41:16.539 And they went to quite a number of pows throughout 00:41:16.539 --> 00:41:20.139 the summer. And we didn't, after the first few 00:41:20.139 --> 00:41:22.039 pows, we didn't have to worry so much because 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.760 we had so much family out there taking care of 00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:28.980 her and making sure that she's. fed and that 00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:33.280 she's braided up and feeling good about being 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:37.380 out there. So that's what keeps us grounded is 00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:40.840 the, you know, being part of that powwow family 00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:45.980 and those relationships that we build. And then, 00:41:46.059 --> 00:41:49.320 of course, sports. My kids are all in very competitive 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:51.639 sports, whether that's hockey, basketball. My 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.739 girl's in college. She goes to, she plays basketball. 00:41:55.739 --> 00:41:59.239 Uh, my, my other two are in multiple sports from, 00:41:59.340 --> 00:42:04.599 uh, hockey. I have two goalies now. Um, and, 00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:07.219 uh, they keep us very, very busy throughout the 00:42:07.219 --> 00:42:11.340 year. So, um, we're always, uh, always in community 00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:14.159 doing the, the sports or, or powwow. So that, 00:42:14.179 --> 00:42:18.119 uh, that keeps us really grounded. Love it. We 00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.900 just had the Tyendinaga powwow, uh, recently, 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:26.059 uh, and good crowds again. Uh, The drumming, 00:42:26.059 --> 00:42:28.760 the dancing, and don't forget the food. Oh, yeah. 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.599 Yeah, it's always good. Thank you, Thomas. It's 00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:37.699 been wonderful to have you on the podcast with 00:42:37.699 --> 00:42:40.219 us. And Robin, I've enjoyed the conversation 00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:42.699 very much. Yeah, thanks for having me, Mark. 00:42:42.860 --> 00:42:47.340 And, you know, hopefully we're having a regular 00:42:47.340 --> 00:42:50.599 conversation. I know there's a lot of things 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:55.519 on the go. You know, as we continue to see success 00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:59.460 as Indigenous fund managers, we're always willing 00:42:59.460 --> 00:43:03.380 to share those good stories and hopefully encourage 00:43:03.380 --> 00:43:07.280 more Indigenous individuals to move into this 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:12.199 space. And that's all that I ask for at the end 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:13.980 of the day is that our young people continue 00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:17.280 to carry that torch forward and hopefully move 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:21.809 at even faster speeds than we can. I know that's 00:43:21.809 --> 00:43:29.750 economic reconciliation is the horse that pulls 00:43:29.750 --> 00:43:34.050 the cart, right? Yes. Well, hopefully we all 00:43:34.050 --> 00:43:36.530 see that in the future. Absolutely. And don't 00:43:36.530 --> 00:43:39.110 have to wait seven generations. No. Hopefully 00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:43.789 we can move that to one generation. Yes, that'd 00:43:43.789 --> 00:43:47.269 be great. Great to talk to you and exciting to 00:43:47.269 --> 00:43:51.119 hear about Flowing River Capital. and the exciting 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.960 opportunities that are going to flow from that 00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:58.199 new enterprise. Yeah, thanks, Rob. Appreciate 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:03.019 it. Thank you to Thomas Benjo for sharing his 00:44:03.019 --> 00:44:05.840 insights with us. And thank you for viewing and 00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:08.820 listening. Mark your calendars for the upcoming 00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:11.840 2026 Summit taking place on the 8th of April. 00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:14.920 Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.800 on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for 00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:19.960 listening to Drumbeats. Until next time.