Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brant
and I are joined today by Jody Anderson, Vice
President of Partnership Strategy and Public
Affairs at the First Nations Finance Authority,
who's leading groundbreaking work in Indigenous
-led economic development across Canada. As a
proud Anishinaabe Kwe from Treaty 3 and member
of Coochie Ching First Nation, Jodi brings a
unique perspective to bridging Indigenous aspirations
with mainstream capital markets. Her role at
FNFA involves designing high -impact initiatives
that unlock capital for First Nations communities,
whilst delivering stable returns for institutional
partners. Welcome to Jodi Anderson, Vice President,
Partnership Strategy and Public Affairs at the
FNFA. Hi, Jodi. Great to see you again. Hi, Mark.
Hi, Rob. Great to see you both. And thanks for
having me here today. Thank you very much. We've
had you at the most recent summit. We saw you
in between there and today back in London. So
you've been traveling around quite a bit. And
where are you today, Jodi? I am home here in
Ottawa on the unceded and surrendered territory
of the Algonquin people. Well, that'll be a big
discussion. How is Ottawa Hall? Still unceded
territory, right? That just demonstrates a lot
of the issues that underline what we're talking
about today, right? Yes, sir. That's a whole
other can of worms, Mark. Yes, it is. Yes, it
is. Anyway. Jody, tell us a little bit about
yourself. Lots going on at FNFA. I know you're
involved in other boards. Charity work is a big
part of what you do. But first, start by telling
us. a little bit about your background and how
you got to SNSA. Thanks, Rob. Yeah, it's an interesting
journey on how I landed here, but one that's
certainly not lost on me, and I reflect on it
quite often. I'm a proud member of Kuchiching
First Nation, which is located in Treaty 3, northwestern
Ontario, but I grew up in a small town called
Sioux Lookout. which is about four and a half
hours northwest of Thunder Bay. And so that's
the world that I grew up in. Beautiful spot,
incredible fishing, you know, incredible community
there. And I miss it dearly. Growing up, I always
worked. I worked for the Ministry of Natural
Resources. I was a radio operator helping the
teams when there was massive forest fires in
and around the area. So I spent a lot of time
out in the bush and out on the land, I guess
is what it was. And that was really something
that we grew up in and was quite natural to me.
And I thought for the longest time that my career
journey would lead me down the path to go to
school for forestry and something that was connected
to the land in the late 90s. Mike Harris, who
was a former premier of Ontario, did a number
of cuts at the provincial level. And forestry
was an area that was impacted significantly.
And I thought, you know, just as I was looking
at post -secondary schools, maybe I should change
my mind and look at something different. And
so on a whim, I decided to apply into a business
and commerce program, which I ended up following.
After working with the Ministry of Natural Resources,
I was really fortunate enough to be hired by
CIBC into their Aboriginal Internship Program,
which is what it was called at the time. And
so that kind of helped me launch into the banking
and finance world and really learn more about
this area of finance, which in my little world
didn't exist. And banking to me was somewhere
where you went and did your deposits. you know,
withdrew money at the ATM. And there wasn't a
whole lot of knowledge beyond that, though. When
I was exposed to this world, it was fascinating
to me in terms of the opportunities and, you
know, the training opportunities and how people
manage their money, because it was just kind
of a foreign concept, if you will. And so when
I went to school, CIBC kept me on. I went to
school in Peterborough, Ontario, which was You
know, a little bit of a balance between going
to the big cities, you know, a small town girl
and still having that bit of a balance of a smaller
town. And so I was fortunate enough to work with
CIBC and learn from other managers and mentors
along the way. And from there, when I graduated.
I had a choice of going to Toronto or I had a
choice of going to Ottawa. And I chose Ottawa
at the time. And I thought, oh, I'll go and try
it for a year and see if I like it. And I was
hired at the time into the high tech boom was
going on in Ottawa. And it was exciting. And
there was lots of things going on. So I followed
that path and did human resource management at
a high tech company for a few years. And while
it was really interesting and I learned a lot
and worked with some incredibly brilliant people,
it was a big organization. You know, there was
thousands of people who worked there and sometimes
I felt like a number. And while I enjoyed the
friendships that I made, I often questioned my
impact on what I was doing. And in 2005, I think.
I received a call asking if I would be interested
in interviewing for this organization called
the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association
of Canada. And I knew nothing about them. And
I did my homework and I did my research and really
learned more about what the mandate of that organization
was, including financial literacy and building
capacity. with Indigenous communities right across
Canada. And I thought, wow, I really like this
idea. It reconnected me back to my kind of banking
days. And I saw a lot of opportunity. And when
I walked in into that interview, it was Ernie
Daniels who was interviewing me. And that was
20 years ago. 20 years later, I still work under
Ernie's leadership. And he has afforded me great
opportunities and has been an incredible mentor
in terms of helping me navigate this world in
this community and has been a real beacon of
light, not just for me, but for many people.
And so when Ernie moved to the First Nations
Finance Authority in 2011, I stayed at AFOA Canada
because he moved out west. And I said, well,
you know, Keep me in mind. And if you ever expand
in the East when it's time, don't forget about
me. And, you know, he went out there. He still
continued to be a mentor for those seven years.
And seven years later, he called me up and said,
do you think you would be open for a change and
taking on a new challenge? And so we talked about
it and it was fascinating what they were doing.
It was fascinating around the opportunities.
And that was seven years ago. And I've been with
the FNFA ever since. Wow. Just have to touch
base. First of all, Ernie Daniels, we've been
fortunate. He's joined our summit, been on a
previous podcast with us. And he's obviously
one of the leaders in this whole area and a man
of great reputation and insight and contribution.
And as you said, been a mentor. But I have to
come back. And we've talked about this before.
Whenever you say Sioux Lookout, I just think,
oh, wow. Because we used to go in the summers
from Toronto to Manitoba. And we'd drive up through
northern Ontario to get there. And we used to
go by Sioux Lookout. And it was like, wow, such
a whole different world. But it's one of those
great names that resonate. And Rob, I think we're
very fortunate on this podcast because we get
so many Canadians, of course, but from all over
the country and all these names. I'm sure to
most of our listeners here and in the city of
London, Sue Lookout, you know, Peterborough would
ring a bell because there's a Peterborough here
that I happen to live in, which is different
than Peterborough there, but Sue Lookout and
all those places. And it just shows how diverse
Canada is, you know, and everybody has unique
experience growing up and your story about how
you made it to Ottawa. And probably the Senators
have a greater chance than Leafs of winning the
Stanley Cup. So it'll probably be another good
reason to move to Ottawa. But Ottawa is a beautiful
city that was chosen by Queen Victoria as the
capital, Ottawa Hall, to settle the issue of
should the capital be in what was Upper Canada
versus Lower Canada. And now you're there working
for the First Nations Financial Authority. That's
a wonderful story and your career to date. From
Forestry Capital Markets. Yes. My daughter is
working in Northern Ontario right now on a big
forestry project and went to school and studied
forestry management. We'll be interested to listen
to your podcast, this podcast and your story.
Timing is everything. Yes. It's a really interesting
journey in Northern Ontario at this time of year.
I have some great memories of lakes and time
of the land. Do you get back very often? I know
you're still involved with Kuchiching First Nation.
Yes. Yeah, I am, Rob. And I try to get back as
often as I can, try to participate in as many
community activities as I can from here. I'm
a trustee on Kuchiching's Legacy Trust. And so
part of, you know, my mantra is to look at ways
to give back. How can I connect with my community
and what value can I bring to the table that
they're willing and open to receiving? And so
to me, that's capacity in terms of, you know,
knowledge transfer or helping out wherever I
can and going back for their powwows. And we
still have family on reserve. So going to visit
family, of course, is a wonderful. So whenever
I get the opportunity to go up north or go home,
I relish that. And it is truly an incredible,
incredible spot to be. Lake of the Woods and
Lac Seul. And if you are a person that loves
to fish, there's no better place in Canada, in
my opinion. And they're just gems. Gems. That's
for sure. Can you tell our listeners and viewers
a little bit about powwows? You've mentioned
that a week. discussed that before. It's powwow
season, yeah, summertime. Yes, it is. It's powwow
season, and you often hear people talking about
the powwow trail and what does that mean, and
it's really an opportunity for communities to
celebrate culture and heritage and dance and
movement and the regalia that people spend so
much time and effort. making and pouring their
hearts into and ensuring that it's reflective
of who we want to be. There was a time when powwows
and potlatches were banned from happening under
the Indian Act. So it's important that we bring
back and continue to celebrate those sacred ceremonies,
teach our kids to dance. You know, you're never
too old to dance. I'm trying to learn how to
dance. Technology has been a wonderful thing
in terms of people sharing their talents. And
I'm in the process of, you know, making my own
ribbon skirts now, which is something I didn't
grow up learning how to do. But spending time
with people from community who can help and guide
and mentor in that specific area, I think is
incredible. But each community tends to have
an annual powwow where people come home from
all over the place, other communities to celebrate,
visit with families, enter into these dance competitions,
hearing the drums, hearing the music, etc. It
really is an incredible time. And you can spend
your entire summer going from community to community,
participating or watching in different powwows.
And it's truly beautiful. Yeah, I'll be on our
side of the Nega in just a couple of weeks. Okay.
A couple of weeks left to keep that in mind.
Yeah, yeah. And I look forward to connecting,
seeing family and friends and also the food.
Don't forget the food. Oh yes, the food is definitely
one of the highlights. I'm envious I'm over in
London. I'm not sure where I'm going to do, but
I certainly won't enjoy a powwow like that. That's
for sure. So why don't we come back a little
bit about First Nations Financial Authority and
some of your recent achievements. I think you've
now reached over 2 billion Canadian in financing.
Why don't you give us an update? Three now. Yeah,
we're closing in on four, Mark. Wow. Okay. I've
been behind for a few months. That's okay. That's
okay. Closing in on four. So why don't you tell
our listeners a little bit again about FNFA and
where it sits in the framework and how a foreign
investor or those who have subsidiaries in Canada
might end up working with either Indigenous nations
with FNFA or through FNFA. Sure. It's a great
question. So the First Nations Finance Authority
is a not -for -profit statutory institution that
exists under the First Nations Fiscal Management
Framework, along with three other institutions,
sister institutions, which we all operate independent
of one another, but offer tools. and options
for First Nation communities right now. And right
now, the mandate of FNFA is really to provide
short and long -term financing opportunities
for bands that exist under the Indian Act. We
also can provide investment options and capital
advisory services to nations that wish to engage.
Under those kind of three mandate or bullet points,
there's a number of areas that we work with,
First Nations right across Canada. And essentially,
nations can come to us either utilizing own source
revenue that they have existing already to leverage
to access capital through the capital markets.
And FNFA now has been able to obtain three credit
rating. opinions from S &P, or Standard & Poor's,
Moody's Investor Service, as well as Morningstar,
DBRS, which allows us to work within the capital
markets and issue bonds. So what we do is we
have a short -term commercial paper program,
or if Mark First Nation wants to come to us and
borrow for a project in their nation. They can
do so, they can access that capital immediately.
And once we can build up a number of projects
and loans, we pool those together and then go
to the capital markets to sell that debt. And
we work with institutional investors. We work
with all of the big five banks, plus some smaller
folks through our banking syndicate. who have
really opened doors for investors right across
the world now who are buying our debt. And we've
been able to establish an incredible reputation
and level of comfort with our investors where
that when we go to issue a bond now, it's oversubscribed.
So there's more buyers than we have debt to sell,
which, yeah, it's a great signal of comfort in
that. that investors understand what it is that
we're doing. They're very interested in the Indigenous
market, very interested in, you know, what else
is that investors can do to participate or whether
it's through their reconciliation strategies
or plans, whether it's a reflection of ESG investing
and performance targets. We're constantly getting
interest from not just Canadian investors, but
like I said, from all over the world now, which
has really allowed us to grow, scale, and pass
those savings and those benefits over to the
community. So because we're a not -for -profit,
we can pass those savings directly over to our
First Nation members, which is extraordinary.
So our members are often accessing capital. rates
well below bank prime or other places that they
would have been accessing debt historically.
It's impressive, Jodi. Remind us, what is the
credit rating these days of your long -term debt?
We're sitting at about a AA and a stable from
Moody's Investor Service and an R1 through our
commercial paper program, MidStable. And again,
AA with S &P. So we're regarded very stable within
the investment community. We work very closely
with the credit rating agencies so that we maintain
that relationship. We're priced very close to
the province of Ontario, which is a great thing
to be able to say at this point. So we have received
a number of different credit rating increases.
Even throughout COVID, we actually received a
credit rating increase, which was quite rare
to see during that time. Well, AA, AA is fantastic.
That's equivalent to our biggest banks in Canada.
That's true. Yep. Ratings. That's right. So our
big boss says that he wants to get to a AAA rating.
You know, that's what we're trying to achieve
so our members can enjoy the benefits of cheaper
capital. So we're striving to do that with the
work that we're doing. Just a question, when
you refer to your members, is this similar to
a mutual structure or a credit union structure
or how do First Nations participate? It's a good
question. So what was very important to our leadership
when this act was being contemplated and designed
and the drafting of the legislation was happening
was that this act, although it's federal, was
to never be imposed on any First Nation. And
it was that it is optional for First Nations
to participate so they can put their hand up
and say, yes, I want to be a part of this. But
they also have the benefit to put their hand
up and say, this isn't right for me at this time.
We're going to opt out of it so that, you know,
we're not forcing anybody into this and where
that this regime actually acts as another tool
in the toolkit that nations can. utilize for
projects or for other circumstances. And I want
to be clear because it's not just FNFA and access
to capital. There's another institution, our
sister institution, which is the First Nations
Financial Management Board, who works with the
nations to build capacity. And that's really
unique in and of itself where that, you know,
we heard for many years that we were just getting
consultants or folks coming in and just doing
the work and leaving. But when they left, our
communities were still left without the capacity
to manage. And so that was really important.
That worked in parallel with the communities
and meeting communities where they're at to establish
financial practices and policies and to strengthen
governance and to strengthen their financial
administration. So that 10, 15 years down the
road, that capacity. And those tools still existed
internally for communities to work from. Yes.
And I remember at the Commonwealth Trade and
Investment Summit that you attended, Jodi, there
was a lot of interest in terms of from other
nations, other members of the Commonwealth. How
does this work and set up? Everybody was like,
we want to learn more. So obviously what's been
achieved is something not just relevant for Canada,
but other nations as well. Yeah, absolutely.
And we're getting, you know, this has been a
really instrumental year in terms of kind of
breaking into a global stage, if you will, Mark,
and certainly through the investment summit has
been a catalyst for us for sure. FNFA is unique
where that there's no other institution in the
world that exists like FNFA and we're getting
calls and requests across the world. to tell
us, you know, how did you do it? And what can
we do to get started? And so we've been talking
with a lot of other nations to help other Indigenous
communities to look at, okay, this is where we
started. This is what worked for us. This is
what we've learned along the way, et cetera,
so that we can see this success, not just within
Canada, but globally. And give us an idea, there's
lots happening at FNFA and you're deploying capital
loans, you're issuing bonds, but any recent projects
you're most proud of? Yeah, there, well, you
know, the ones that are in the pipe, I can't
talk about right now, but we'll be hearing about
some more exciting projects coming out very soon.
But I think that, you know, If I look back and
reflect on the past seven years, Rob, there's
been some extraordinary projects that keep getting
more significant. The small ones are just as
exciting as the larger ones. And I know people
talk about the Clearwater transaction. That was
a very big deal and really set the tone for pooling
purchasing power right across. And we saw a shift
after that transaction took place because it
involved a coalition of seven Mi 'kmaq communities
and one where they could rightfully. get into
an industry that they had participated in for
years. So not only was this a financially meaningful
transaction, but it also reflected the values
and the culture of the communities that were
involved. So that was definitely a big one and
turned a lot of heads. That was the acquisition
by the Big Mark Syndicate. a 50 % stake in Clearwater's
favorite business. That's right. And we helped
them finance the purchase of, I think it was
24 lobster licenses, which are as, you know,
the government isn't issuing licenses anymore.
You can get into that industry, but you have
to kind of buy into it. And that's really the
only way now. So there's significant value in
those licenses. It was transformative for seven
communities. And at that point, that was during
COVID. So that was really interesting. And I
think we issued that transaction and timed it
in the markets where that community, we could
lock in a rate for 10 years of 1 .9%. And when
you're talking, you know, hundreds of millions
of dollars, that's an extraordinary rate that
I don't know that we'll see again for a very
long time. So allowing budget certainty for the
communities and access to generational wealth
and transaction is transformative. But we've
also taken place or been able to participate
in the Haisla LNG, the Cedar LNG facility that
the Haisla First Nation has. embarked on. And,
you know, it's not lost on us that we can help
the communities come in as the financers and
participating in the finance, but it truly is
the communities that do all the heavy lifting
because a lot of these transactions take years
and years. And it's often the vision of many
leaderships right across Canada who have wanted
certain things for many years. Now they have
the tools to be able to execute and access because,
you know, previously or historically, when we
were accessing capital, it was prime plus two,
three, four, and often more percent, which makes
a lot of these projects non -viable. So to have
the opportunity to access affordable capital
is transformative. allows the nations to participate
in economic development and transfer that wealth
back to the community and invest in infrastructure
and all these good things that our communities
so badly need. But you get these big economic
development ones. But I also love the story of
Tomogami First Nation, where they built a new
12 -unit home for their elders to come home.
And so they never had that opportunity to welcome
home their elders and also built a multi -use
facility where they could go right next door
to participate in cultural activities or community
kitchens and things like that. Those things are
so meaningful and impactful to our communities.
And it truly helps rebuild a nation and revitalize
our culture. Yes, because historically your elders
would. stay in the community, right? So this
gives them at the end of their lives, actually,
they now see the fruits of economic and social
reconciliation, which they did not benefit from
during most of their lives. So that's nice, but
also brings it back in the community. So you
have that intergenerational experience going
on for the young people who can see their elders
are here. And all the stories and learnings and
everything are passed on. You know, I love being
close to my grandparents. And that's why I went
back to Manitoba every summer. But to have them
in the community as the communities are being
empowered is really, as you say, transformative.
I guess one of the other things, obviously, on
everybody's mind, we have a new prime minister
in Canada, Mark Carney, and the government working
with the provinces and the First Nations are
trying to drive things forward. So can you, without,
of course, going into any of the... the detail.
How do you see this moment for the country and
First Nations? Yeah, it's a great question. And
I think if you ask five different people, you
may get five different answers on, you know,
what the perception is. And I think Prime Minister
Mark Carney has a big job to do right now. There's
a lot of changes geopolitically, of course. There's
always work to be done when there's a change
in government, a federal government or provincial
government for that matter, here in Canada. And
Mark Carney has to balance the objectives and
the mandates of his government that he has set
out, but he also is learning and will continue
to learn. It is a learning journey for everybody
to... and include, co -develop with our Indigenous
nations. And I think that's the message that
is coming out of a lot of the nations across
Canada. Nations are very interested in development.
You know, we're interested in participating in
economic development and seeing progress, not
just within our own nations, but across Canada
as a whole. You know, there's expectations and
responsibilities that come along with that in
terms of consultation and listening to those
rights holders who really are the communities
in terms of how they wish to participate. And
a lot of these projects will be identified as
priorities for our nation. So it will be interesting.
Dialogues continue to happen. I'm hopeful, you
know, that I think Mark Carney is a very smart
businessman and understands the power of negotiation
and the power of listening to come out with a
win -win opportunity. So I'm always an optimist
thinking that good things will prevail. That
was my question, Jodi. Are you optimistic? Can
we find a way to do these? transactions, these
projects in a more efficient way, in a faster
way. Investors in Canada and around the world
would all like to see that, but at the same time
respecting rights holders and consultation processes
because these projects have a big impact, especially
on Indigenous communities who will live with
the effects for forever in some cases. Yeah,
absolutely, Rob. I think that, you know, whether
we look at any of the priorities, whether it's
projects of national interest, whether it's climate
change, the path to execution and success is
through our Indigenous territories. So it's really
not an option not to engage. And I am optimistic
because we need to think differently. We need
to be more innovative and we certainly need to
be more efficient in terms of how we're approaching
these projects. Because I think that if we're
not, the result is that timelines are not met
and costs are overblown. And there is a way to
be more... and more efficient and meet those
expectations of consultation and FPIC and all
these important things that are critical to our
communities. So I am optimistic, but it takes
time, right? A true partnership just, it takes
a lot of work. I wanted to ask Udi a little bit
about your podcast. So that's Bond. Tell us a
bit about that. Yeah, thanks. It's different
for me to be on this side of the podcast table,
although it's fun. And yes, FNFA, we have a podcast
called Let's Bond, and we bring in community
members to talk about their projects or some
of the challenges that they're seeing or have
encountered and sharing solutions to some of
the things that they have experienced. I'm sure
you know Chief Derek Epp. He has an incredible
episode where he talks about Chiak Dil's housing
project that we were fortunate enough to participate
in and the impact that that's had on his community
and elders and young folks having homes for the
first time. So we look at things like housing.
We look at things like insurance. you know, the
history of FNFA and some of the original leaders
that helped stand up this organization. And then
we talk about, you know, what's coming down the
pipe? What other new innovative tools are we
looking at? And it's important for us to hear
from the people that we work with and to truly
listen to what's happening in communities, because
if we're not listening. then I think we're going
in the wrong direction. And certainly our approach
has always been to hear, truly hear and listen
to our communities so that we can develop and
design tools that work when our communities need
it. We would love to have you guys on that podcast,
by the way. We'd be happy to be there. That would
be great. A comment from all the podcasts that
we're doing, and both of you are Indigenous.
You know, you can feel the seven generations
thinking, coming through, that you're thinking,
what is the impact down the road? And it's not
separate from the community. It's part of it.
So, you know, many of us, you know, we're in
the UK or Rob and I have both been here and,
you know, they talk about different projects
and there's environmental assessments. But you
don't feel that deep sort of ownership and concern
for what does this mean down. down the road.
So that really, really comes through. But I also
think just a separate point, the scale of the
opportunity and challenges in front of Canada.
So China just announced earlier today, President
Xi yesterday, a huge 170 billion dam in the Himalayas
that is now going to be the focus of the effort.
And I forget how much concrete the reference
was. And, you know, in the UK, they will get
that done. They have a different system of government,
obviously. In the UK, we've had something called
HS2 and we've already spent, I don't know, $35
billion on it. And it's not going to get completely
done. So every country is facing these challenges
in terms of development, infrastructure and energy
projects and how to make things happen. And I
remain. as Rob knows, an optimist on this, that
I think Canada is going to find something very
unique about how to work with the rights holders,
which are usually the Indigenous people in Canada,
along with separators and those who are new to
the country, to come up with a model to provide
a model of how a society should work in the world
we live in. We're all on planet Earth. And hopefully
we achieve, here's how you can actually do it.
Leveraging the millennia of knowledge and traditions
as well as the best practices and how you get
things happen and deliver them and provide returns
to investors, which is very important in the
world we live in. So I really enjoy these podcasts.
So I enjoy Let's Bond too. feature some of those
as well and talk to our investors about what
they can benefit from that. But it's been absolutely
great having you with us today, Jodi. Really
special as always to have a conversation with
you. Thank you, Mark. It's been a pleasure and
I enjoy our discussions, Rob and Mark, and could
probably chat for another hour very easily. You
know, thanks for inviting FNFA and allowing us
to share our story. Thank you for inviting us
to your summit, which I can't wait for the next
one. We've been finding it extremely beneficial
for us in terms of sharing our story, but meeting
other folks that can help us achieve the goals
and what we're trying to do here in Canada. So
well -timed. Thanks for joining us, Jody. Thanks
for your time. Always great to catch up. Enjoy
the rest of your summer. Congratulations on everything
that the FNFA has been able to achieve today.
Thanks, Rob. Thanks, Mark. We'll be watching
the news, so thank you very much. Thank you to
Jody Anderson for sharing your insights with
us, and thank you for viewing and listening.
Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review
on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for
listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.