WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.050 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.650 --> 00:00:15.589 I'm Mark McNacca, and today my co -host Robert 00:00:15.589 --> 00:00:17.890 Brantanar are discussing the new law of the land 00:00:17.890 --> 00:00:21.730 in Canada, Bill C -5, which allows Canada's federal 00:00:21.730 --> 00:00:23.910 government to fast -track major infrastructure 00:00:23.910 --> 00:00:27.579 projects by bypassing regulations. It's been 00:00:27.579 --> 00:00:29.640 passed in response to Trump's tariff threats. 00:00:30.179 --> 00:00:33.659 However, significant Indigenous opposition and 00:00:33.659 --> 00:00:36.420 ongoing legal challenges may create potential 00:00:36.420 --> 00:00:39.600 investment risks through possible protests and 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.679 project delays, despite the legislation's intent 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:46.659 to streamline approvals. However, Canada is moving 00:00:46.659 --> 00:00:51.719 ahead. Hi Rob, great to see you today from cloudy 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.479 London. We've had our heat wave and now we're 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:57.189 having our... Our cooler wave with a lot of rain, 00:00:57.210 --> 00:00:59.710 so the reservoirs are filling up, which is great. 00:00:59.829 --> 00:01:02.890 How is it over in Canada, in Toronto? I think 00:01:02.890 --> 00:01:04.790 you're in Toronto. Yeah, great to see him here 00:01:04.790 --> 00:01:08.590 in the Toronto office. We're midsummer, enjoying 00:01:08.590 --> 00:01:13.549 the heat and no complaints. It's a sunny, gorgeous 00:01:13.549 --> 00:01:18.489 day here in Toronto. So no wildfire smoke is... 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.019 The fires have calmed down a little bit out west? 00:01:22.420 --> 00:01:25.700 A little bit, a little bit, yeah. I mean, each 00:01:25.700 --> 00:01:29.760 day seems to bring a potential evacuation order 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.859 somewhere in the country. Wow. But at the moment, 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:38.840 things seem to be under control. Good. Well, 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:41.459 sunny skies in Toronto, so the rest of the country 00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:46.739 will be very happy. So, the election's over. 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:49.379 Prime Minister Mark Carney is well installed. 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:56.299 He's set up his cabinet and he's leading a transformational 00:01:56.299 --> 00:02:00.400 moment for the country. And he set a very ambitious 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:03.840 plan to move things ahead with something called 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:06.120 the Building Canada Act, which I think is called 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:10.120 Bill C -5. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind six months 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:13.240 when you think back. Wow. And it's interesting 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:18.159 to think about whether we would be here. With 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:21.900 initiatives like that, the Building Canada Act, 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:24.120 the removing interprovincial trade barriers, 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.060 lots of initiatives and lots of cooperation at 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:32.460 the moment between premiers and the prime minister. 00:02:33.180 --> 00:02:35.560 We'll talk a little bit where Indigenous people 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:40.780 fit into that, but whether we would be taking 00:02:40.780 --> 00:02:44.300 these kinds of measures. At this moment, without 00:02:44.300 --> 00:02:47.500 the impetus that came from south of the border 00:02:47.500 --> 00:02:51.780 and the current president of the United States, 00:02:52.020 --> 00:02:56.360 I doubt it. I mean, we're living with tariffs 00:02:56.360 --> 00:03:00.960 at the moment on steel and aluminum and the threat 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:07.439 of more tariffs. And all of that has produced 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:11.250 a response. within Canada, it probably affected 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:13.990 our election, and it's affecting the legislation 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:17.789 and the legislative agenda. It certainly has, 00:03:17.949 --> 00:03:20.830 and we're in the early part of the week, so yesterday 00:03:20.830 --> 00:03:24.610 the European Union agreed a deal, and I guess 00:03:24.610 --> 00:03:26.370 in principle, I'm not sure what you call these 00:03:26.370 --> 00:03:29.370 deals with the President, but anyway, they claimed 00:03:29.370 --> 00:03:31.949 to agree a deal because the President's over 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:37.280 in Scotland, which is becoming his... His Camelot, 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.180 I guess, over in the UK is a great fondness for 00:03:40.180 --> 00:03:43.500 the UK. I'm not sure it's naturally returned, 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:46.300 but he's been over here holding court, so to 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:48.500 speak, and the European Union showed up and they 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:50.099 got their deal. But as you said, some of these 00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:53.620 deals are very, well, I said, some of these deals 00:03:53.620 --> 00:03:58.379 are very tenuous and trade agreements take a 00:03:58.379 --> 00:04:02.479 long time. So we'll see if this deal even goes 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.580 through like some of the others, Japan and Korea, 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.139 because... They don't seem well -reasoned documentation 00:04:08.139 --> 00:04:10.919 about exactly what's going to be. But you're 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:14.439 right. The change in leadership in the U .S. 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:17.279 and the approach of the new administration to 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:19.740 the rest of the world has dramatically changed 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:22.480 things. And although Canada has this deep relationship 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.279 with America that has been productive for both 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:29.560 countries, we're actually last to the party on 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:31.639 signing something, which is true because, as 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:33.319 Prime Minister Karnia said, we have a very unique 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:37.110 relationship. with estates that crosses many 00:04:37.110 --> 00:04:42.110 aspects in our geography, also defines our destiny. 00:04:42.410 --> 00:04:45.769 So there's a lot of issues going, but it is a 00:04:45.769 --> 00:04:49.589 new world. And Prime Minister Carney has been 00:04:49.589 --> 00:04:51.970 elected partly on that. And I think, as you mentioned, 00:04:51.970 --> 00:04:55.730 with the provinces, to see all the premiers really, 00:04:55.810 --> 00:05:00.029 we haven't seen the country so unified for a 00:05:00.029 --> 00:05:02.610 long time because we have lived in a very nice 00:05:02.610 --> 00:05:09.199 neighborhood. And Canada has benefited from geography 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.920 and a benevolent neighbor who happens to be one 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:14.779 of the most powerful countries, if not the most 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:16.519 powerful country in the world for a number of 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:19.959 years. And it's probably been 50 years since 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:24.379 Canada's really had a debate. And I need to decide 00:05:24.379 --> 00:05:26.079 what is the future of the country. And Prime 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:31.500 Minister Carney is now leading that. So that 00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:35.300 is quite something. Yeah, it struck me. I've 00:05:35.300 --> 00:05:38.980 been back in Canada now since March, and it really 00:05:38.980 --> 00:05:43.000 struck me how, first of all, how angry Canadians 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:49.860 were at the treatment from the American government 00:05:49.860 --> 00:05:54.279 and the proposed high tariffs and a bunch of 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:58.720 other things and a lot of comments about... A 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:03.339 lot of derogatory comments about Canada and Canada's 00:06:03.339 --> 00:06:06.800 worth and all the rest. So I've never seen Canadians 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:12.819 as angry as I saw when I came back. And it has 00:06:12.819 --> 00:06:18.000 unified Canadians right across the country, up 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.579 and down and across in a way that we haven't 00:06:21.579 --> 00:06:25.600 seen before. And the politicians are reflecting 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:31.149 that in ways where... They seem genuinely determined 00:06:31.149 --> 00:06:34.250 and they've now taken some concrete steps to 00:06:34.250 --> 00:06:36.910 remove interprovincial trade barriers for one 00:06:36.910 --> 00:06:46.490 concrete step. And let's see what happens. There's 00:06:46.490 --> 00:06:49.629 some studies that suggest that the damage done 00:06:49.629 --> 00:06:53.730 by high tariffs in the U .S. and reduced trade 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:57.629 with the U .S. would be more than offset. by 00:06:57.629 --> 00:06:59.769 an increase in productivity that would result 00:06:59.769 --> 00:07:03.430 if we removed the interprovincial trade barriers. 00:07:04.250 --> 00:07:08.470 And it was a bit hypocritical for premiers and 00:07:08.470 --> 00:07:11.810 politicians in Canada to complain about high 00:07:11.810 --> 00:07:15.930 tariffs threatened from the U .S. when we have 00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:20.050 our own internal tariffs and trade barriers. 00:07:20.750 --> 00:07:23.730 Yes, and for members of our audience who haven't 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:26.399 seen Angry Canadians before. I don't think many 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:28.500 have seen an angry beaver either, but when they 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:31.279 get angry, watch out if you step on their turf, 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.899 I guess is the closest thing we can say. And 00:07:34.899 --> 00:07:38.319 I guess just for background for our listeners 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.600 and viewers, there's a term in Canada, elbows 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.759 up, which is about defending the country. And 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.040 that comes, of course, from our other national 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.620 game, which is lacrosse is one of our national 00:07:51.620 --> 00:07:54.899 games with deep indigenous roots, but hockey. 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.839 and elbows up as you go in those corners and 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.600 you get your way through. You do it cleanly, 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.699 but you get in there and fight for the buck and 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:05.639 make it happen. So that's a big phrase in Canada. 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:08.519 But that's really interesting. And I had a chance 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:12.079 to go back to Canada in May, and I hadn't been 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.800 back for a long time. And I was, you know, you 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.000 could feel exactly what you're talking about. 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:21.139 And I also felt more than I ever had that deep 00:08:21.139 --> 00:08:24.439 presence of the Indigenous people in the country. 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:28.180 not as something nobody knew about or saw. It's 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:31.139 foundational to the country. And anywhere I went, 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:34.419 we were welcomed on ceded territory or unceded 00:08:34.419 --> 00:08:38.159 territory of a particular nation. So it is a 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.940 defining moment for Canada. But it is interesting, 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.559 Rob, after you lived abroad over here for so 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.879 many years to go back into Canada and to fill 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.639 that, which is great. And as you said, with the 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.519 premiers, it's been a long time since we got 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:55.980 them all focused. on how do we build a country 00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:59.440 that's stronger across the country? Because Canada 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.279 has, I think, less free trade than the European 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:06.100 Union does, right, with the interprovincial barriers. 00:09:06.700 --> 00:09:09.779 So that is something. And if we can win on productivity, 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:14.720 that will be a win for Canada here regardless, 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.759 as we seek to also diversify our export markets. 00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:20.960 So there's a double win. The productivity issue 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.559 being dealt with, which has been... a longstanding 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.659 issue in Canada as well as in the UK, but we 00:09:26.659 --> 00:09:28.919 can deal with that. But we have a whole world 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:34.059 who, Canada's a safe brand. Canada's a great 00:09:34.059 --> 00:09:36.759 brand to deal with. We have all the values as 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.279 a trading partner that people would like. Yes, 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.899 obviously some challenges and some historic wrongs, 00:09:42.899 --> 00:09:46.600 but Canada's a partner people would prefer over 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:51.179 other resource countries to deal with. Yeah, 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:54.690 we're a big, big country. Some people don't realize 00:09:54.690 --> 00:09:58.289 how decentralized decision -making and power, 00:09:58.429 --> 00:10:02.009 political power is in Canada, but 10 provinces 00:10:02.009 --> 00:10:05.929 and three territories covering, what is it, six 00:10:05.929 --> 00:10:09.149 time zones. And when you're putting a country 00:10:09.149 --> 00:10:12.330 together like that, one of the ways to keep people 00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:15.870 from different regions happy is to devolve power 00:10:15.870 --> 00:10:22.549 to them. And so we've got a mix of Provincial 00:10:22.549 --> 00:10:26.090 laws, territorial laws, federal laws. And at 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:30.450 this moment, there's a movement to try and harmonize 00:10:30.450 --> 00:10:35.389 and streamline and reduce the barriers that exist 00:10:35.389 --> 00:10:42.110 to productivity and trade within Canadian borders. 00:10:42.610 --> 00:10:44.870 Yes, just historically, for people to understand 00:10:44.870 --> 00:10:50.019 this, and I'm sure you'll correct me. if I'm 00:10:50.019 --> 00:10:52.279 wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected, Rob, on 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:55.120 this, but when they were setting up the federal 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.240 government structure of Canada, after watching 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.440 what had happened south of the border with the 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.740 American Civil War, it's my understanding that 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:07.519 it was a deliberate strategy to ensure that Canada 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.200 had a strong federal government and the provinces, 00:11:11.460 --> 00:11:14.659 equivalent in some way to American states, were 00:11:14.659 --> 00:11:18.500 relatively weak. However, in those decisions, 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:25.500 natural resources, education, as well as healthcare 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:29.399 were devolved and given to as provincial responsibilities. 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.200 So we actually ended up with a country with a 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.779 weak central government and very strong provinces, 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:39.059 which is, I don't think what they set out to 00:11:39.059 --> 00:11:42.440 do, but the world works in mysterious ways. So 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.600 we've ended up at this place, as you said, with 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:48.049 very strong provinces. And has some unique challenges. 00:11:48.110 --> 00:11:51.169 And I think we've recently put out some information 00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:54.149 about the history of the Indigenous peoples and 00:11:54.149 --> 00:12:00.250 the treaties on the site, as you know. And it 00:12:00.250 --> 00:12:02.710 talks about that. But the Indigenous people have 00:12:02.710 --> 00:12:05.610 the relationship with the Crown. So the provinces 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:10.250 for a lot of the Indigenous nations are like, 00:12:10.330 --> 00:12:12.950 well, you can sit on our territory for a little 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:15.870 bit, but, you know, we don't deal with you. We 00:12:15.870 --> 00:12:17.389 deal with the federal government and the crown. 00:12:18.309 --> 00:12:23.850 So complicated relationships. Yes, that's very 00:12:23.850 --> 00:12:25.970 true. But of course, the day -to -day reality 00:12:25.970 --> 00:12:29.870 is that provincial governments and some of the 00:12:29.870 --> 00:12:35.529 powers they wield do have an effect. And so you 00:12:35.529 --> 00:12:39.309 do end up Indigenous people dealing with provincial 00:12:39.309 --> 00:12:43.529 governments, federal governments, crown representatives. 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:47.600 So let's talk about the Build Canada Act and 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:52.019 what's been the process. I think Bill C -5 that 00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:55.539 it's now. What is the correct term? It's received 00:12:55.539 --> 00:12:58.500 royal assent. It is the law of the land today. 00:12:59.059 --> 00:13:04.259 And so it is in force. It's really a framework 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:10.200 called the One Canadian Economy Act. And it's 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:14.720 split into two parts. One is focused on. free 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.879 trade and labor mobility within Canada. So there 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:22.220 are provisions within the One Canadian Act to 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:27.960 reduce trade barriers within Canada. And then 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.460 the other part of the One Canadian Economy Act 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:37.960 is the Building Canada Act. And that is the act 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:42.519 that is aimed at streamlining the processes. 00:13:44.349 --> 00:13:49.649 in order to build major projects quicker. Okay, 00:13:49.710 --> 00:13:52.129 so there's two parts to Bill C -5, those two 00:13:52.129 --> 00:13:54.730 separate acts. One dealing with the provinces 00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:59.269 and interprovincial barriers, and the other about 00:13:59.269 --> 00:14:04.429 how do we build Canada as a whole. Right. And 00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:07.210 then the provinces are enacting their own legislation 00:14:07.210 --> 00:14:12.200 to mirror... These provisions in Ontario and 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:14.159 British Columbia, they've already started with 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:18.740 their own legislation to streamline major processes. 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:22.720 It's interesting reading some of the preambles 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.620 and backgrounders to the legislation, and the 00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:30.559 federal government says that their legislation 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.159 is intended to strengthen the Canadian economy, 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:39.019 diversify our trade relations, and increase productivity. 00:14:39.259 --> 00:14:42.460 So you can see it's a legislation is a direct 00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:47.980 result of some of the tensions with the US and 00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:51.919 a new focus on how do we build an economy and 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:57.299 infrastructure to allow us to trade with other 00:14:57.299 --> 00:15:02.519 partners. And it also talks about meeting the 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:06.059 moment using all the tools at our disposal to 00:15:06.059 --> 00:15:09.250 get major projects built. to help Canada become 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:12.950 the strongest economy within the G7, deepen our 00:15:12.950 --> 00:15:18.269 trade relationships with reliable partners, and 00:15:18.269 --> 00:15:23.330 to create jobs. Wow. So we're in a contest with 00:15:23.330 --> 00:15:25.149 the United Kingdom to be the fastest growing 00:15:25.149 --> 00:15:28.210 economy in the G7 because Prime Minister Starmer 00:15:28.210 --> 00:15:31.049 over here has set that out. And Canada's now 00:15:31.049 --> 00:15:33.269 on that. So we've got Starmer versus Mark Carney. 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.039 And as a citizen of both countries, I wish both 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.460 well. And I hope we're the top two competing 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:43.860 and alternating in terms of leadership. But the 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:47.259 numbers came out today in term, I think, from 00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:50.940 the IMF. And, you know, the US and Canada are 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:53.720 ahead of the game at the moment in terms of the 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.799 economy and followed by the UK. UK is at the 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.159 moment and expected to be over the next two years 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.269 the fastest growing European economy. It is a 00:16:02.269 --> 00:16:04.929 timely moment. Well, but hey, that sounds great. 00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:11.809 Who could not be in favor of this? But I think 00:16:11.809 --> 00:16:15.929 there are some questions. Yeah, devil is in the 00:16:15.929 --> 00:16:21.750 detail. And again, the legislation dealing with 00:16:21.750 --> 00:16:25.590 the Building Canada Act and focused on major 00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:29.629 projects is just a certain limited number. of 00:16:29.629 --> 00:16:32.070 what will eventually be designated by the federal 00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:35.129 government as projects in the national interest 00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:39.610 of Canada and those types of projects. Designated 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:44.250 by the federal government, right? Canada doesn't 00:16:44.250 --> 00:16:45.950 run that way in the past. What do you mean the 00:16:45.950 --> 00:16:47.610 federal government's going to take the leadership, 00:16:47.789 --> 00:16:51.090 right? They might control some taxes and disperse 00:16:51.090 --> 00:16:54.529 some funds, but they're going to be first among 00:16:54.529 --> 00:16:57.440 equals again. And I guess. It was a good point. 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.799 Yes, let's please. But leading off of that comment 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.180 about the federal government will designate the 00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:08.779 projects. Right. Yes, it's the federal government 00:17:08.779 --> 00:17:12.700 who, it's federal law, will make the designations. 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:15.440 The law requires the federal government to consult 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.539 with both provinces, territories who are affected, 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.960 as well as Indigenous peoples whose rights may 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:28.250 be affected by the designation. To consult. Wait 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:32.329 a sec. I thought Constitution came back. There's 00:17:32.329 --> 00:17:35.829 been a number of Supreme Court cases. Canada 00:17:35.829 --> 00:17:38.509 signed up for a UN Declaration of Rights of the 00:17:38.509 --> 00:17:44.190 Indigenous People. So consult. Consult, but there's 00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:47.069 no requirement to get consent. There's no veto 00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.769 power in here for Indigenous peoples. There's 00:17:49.769 --> 00:17:56.450 lots of discretion in streamlining. the usual 00:17:56.450 --> 00:17:59.390 processes like environmental reviews, impact 00:17:59.390 --> 00:18:04.710 assessments, a bunch of other requirements that 00:18:04.710 --> 00:18:08.529 you would normally go through for a major project 00:18:08.529 --> 00:18:15.369 build. And so that's why certain Indigenous groups 00:18:15.369 --> 00:18:21.299 are angry. Angry at a couple of things. Well, 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.220 rightly so, because all this just happened in 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:25.740 the past 20 or 30 years that the Indigenous peoples 00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:28.339 have their seat at the table, their rights holders, 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.599 and we're going to do things differently. And 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:36.980 now we're back to, we'll let you know. It's one 00:18:36.980 --> 00:18:41.220 thing to introduce fast track legislation to 00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:44.980 streamline processes and try to build projects, 00:18:45.259 --> 00:18:51.089 important projects quicker. The delays and the 00:18:51.089 --> 00:18:54.769 time it takes to get some of these projects approved 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:58.670 and built is probably one of the biggest factors 00:18:58.670 --> 00:19:02.569 in deterring investment, discouraging foreign 00:19:02.569 --> 00:19:07.190 investment. You talk to investors who have options 00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:12.509 around the world to place their money, and Canada 00:19:12.509 --> 00:19:17.230 is one place that has a reputation for taking... 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.920 a longer time to get projects approved lots of 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.460 uncertainty in the process overlapping jurisdictions 00:19:24.460 --> 00:19:27.299 between provinces and the federal government 00:19:27.299 --> 00:19:31.799 lots of discretion so that years of that process 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.599 there's still at the end of the day a ministerial 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:39.440 discretion can override everything and all of 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.920 that uncertainty and length of time discourages 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.680 investment so when you talk to investors whether 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:49.369 they're canadian or or foreign, they will always 00:19:49.369 --> 00:19:51.589 talk about that uncertainty and length of time 00:19:51.589 --> 00:19:56.430 that is a major deterrent. Yes. And so Mark Carney, 00:19:56.609 --> 00:20:01.769 with his experience, and he would know that that 00:20:01.769 --> 00:20:04.769 is an issue, and that's what this bill is intended 00:20:04.769 --> 00:20:07.849 to address. Good. I mean, one example of that 00:20:07.849 --> 00:20:10.329 is just environmental assessments. The federal 00:20:10.329 --> 00:20:12.089 government wants an environmental assessment, 00:20:12.130 --> 00:20:14.329 and then the province does. It's absolutely crazy, 00:20:14.529 --> 00:20:18.609 right? Just choose one of them. And all of a 00:20:18.609 --> 00:20:21.089 sudden you cut down that time in half because 00:20:21.089 --> 00:20:23.589 is it going to be very different on the environmental 00:20:23.589 --> 00:20:27.630 assessments? I wouldn't think so, right? So that's 00:20:27.630 --> 00:20:31.890 just bureaucracy gone mad and what happens with 00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:36.250 multiple levels of government, you know, by definition. 00:20:36.309 --> 00:20:39.250 So Prime Minister Carney's got the experience, 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:42.849 right? He does. And most Indigenous people would 00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:46.950 say that they agree that the processes need to 00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:50.829 be streamlined. We need to do this quicker to 00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:54.210 attract capital and to actually get things done. 00:20:54.650 --> 00:20:59.490 But some object to the speed at which this legislation 00:20:59.490 --> 00:21:04.210 has been adopted and made law. And so it's one 00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:08.799 thing to introduce fast -track legislation. If 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.700 you are seen to have fast -tracked the fast -track 00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:15.420 legislation, then that can lead to complaints. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:20.700 And so in Ontario, there's a number of First 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:22.579 Nations who have banded together and actually 00:21:22.579 --> 00:21:25.900 launched a claim against the government for failure 00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:33.839 to consult properly in adopting these fast -track 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.319 laws. And it's understandable. from the historic 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:43.420 perspective, that they may decide to launch a 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:47.319 challenge. In this case, they have, because obviously 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:49.119 they're concerned about what's happened in the 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:52.640 past. And since that's their experience and test, 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:56.380 and we've heard this before, it's understandable 00:21:56.380 --> 00:21:58.660 there's a natural reticence. We all want everything 00:21:58.660 --> 00:22:03.259 to move ahead quickly and with everybody on board. 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:06.609 There's going to be some people. no matter what 00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:09.490 Indigenous, non -Indigenous organizations, different 00:22:09.490 --> 00:22:11.650 organizations who will be for and others who 00:22:11.650 --> 00:22:14.210 will be against, but we have to make the decisions 00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:19.730 for the best of the country, which is for the 00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:23.910 Indigenous people, for the non -Indigenous, and 00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:26.369 for the country as a whole, to build a better 00:22:26.369 --> 00:22:30.630 economy that everybody benefits from, and also 00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:32.990 hopefully provides an opportunity to right some 00:22:32.990 --> 00:22:35.819 of the historic wrongs. where the Indigenous 00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:38.779 people have been excluded from sharing in the 00:22:38.779 --> 00:22:42.740 wealth. Yeah, absolutely. Even, as I say, even 00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:44.720 the Indigenous groups who've launched this claim 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:49.000 say they're supportive in principle of new laws 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:53.480 that will speed things up. Indigenous people 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.619 understand only too well the frustrations of 00:22:56.619 --> 00:23:02.299 bureaucracy and waiting for processes to take 00:23:02.299 --> 00:23:08.119 their course. They know those problems only too 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.440 well. They object to the speed at which this 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:14.799 particular legislation has been brought in. They 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:19.880 don't like the discretion that is given. And 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.000 based on past experience, don't trust that that 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.579 discretion will be exercised in a way that respects 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:33.349 their hard -fought rights. I mean, the legislation 00:23:33.349 --> 00:23:37.789 cannot override the constitutional rights that 00:23:37.789 --> 00:23:42.390 Indigenous people have and that the courts have 00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:46.130 defined over the years. The governments, both 00:23:46.130 --> 00:23:48.910 provincially and federally, seem to be saying, 00:23:49.029 --> 00:23:52.589 trust us, we are not going to do any of these 00:23:52.589 --> 00:23:59.940 projects without your participation. And consent, 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.720 although the language consent is not anywhere 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.700 in the legislation, they seem to be saying, trust 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:08.660 us, let's do a project and we'll show you what 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:13.599 we mean. But you can imagine how that goes over 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.400 with Indigenous groups who've seen discretion 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:23.539 abused for decades. And I guess just to touch 00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:26.700 on for our listeners. Again, the Indigenous people 00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:29.079 have been dealing with the bureaucracy for years 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:35.099 under the Indian Act. So if anybody knows what 00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:38.839 the bureaucracy can do to stop development, to 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.940 stop progress, it would be the Indigenous peoples. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.279 Because as you said, they've suffered from it. 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:47.799 So I think for our listeners to understand this 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:50.960 is not just, oh, this is our land, we have our 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.900 rights. It's they've been victims. of that bureaucracy 00:24:54.900 --> 00:25:00.559 that actually held you and other Indigenous people 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.220 down in the past. So this is an important moment 00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:07.220 to get right. And I think if I understand from 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:10.880 what I've read and seen and listened to is, you 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.079 know, there's a great, let's do this, but let's 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.440 do this in the right way. This is not, no, we're 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.259 not doing this. This is, hey, we all want to 00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:22.279 do this. We want to understand why we need to 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:26.349 do this now. and how do we best to achieve it 00:25:26.349 --> 00:25:29.670 together? So what is Prime Minister Carney and 00:25:29.670 --> 00:25:31.650 his colleagues in the federal government doing 00:25:31.650 --> 00:25:34.690 to get on board the Indigenous peoples of Canada? 00:25:36.009 --> 00:25:38.970 Well, the laws have been passed, so they are 00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:42.369 in force. They're now consulting. They're holding 00:25:42.369 --> 00:25:44.670 meetings. There have been separate meetings with 00:25:44.670 --> 00:25:51.309 First Nations chiefs, other leaders, Inuit. There 00:25:51.309 --> 00:25:55.819 have been separate meetings, Métis. Mostly these 00:25:55.819 --> 00:25:59.319 have been listening type meetings with Indigenous 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:05.799 people doing most of the talking. It's unclear 00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:11.099 exactly what sort of consultation process will 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:13.440 take place and whether that will be adequate 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.759 consultation. The projects we're talking about 00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:20.809 have not been designated yet. Again, we're not 00:26:20.809 --> 00:26:22.730 talking about every project. We're just talking 00:26:22.730 --> 00:26:25.490 about a limited number of projects that get designated 00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:29.069 as being in the national interest. And those 00:26:29.069 --> 00:26:35.390 could be anything from roads to ports. We spoke 00:26:35.390 --> 00:26:39.450 recently with Brendan Bell, CEO of the proponent 00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:43.789 for the Grays Bay Port and Road Project, which 00:26:43.789 --> 00:26:47.250 is a road connecting Northwest Territories with 00:26:47.250 --> 00:26:53.509 Nunavut. There are other potential projects around 00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:56.349 the country. A lot of it is about infrastructure, 00:26:56.730 --> 00:27:02.150 energy, power corridors, connecting the country 00:27:02.150 --> 00:27:07.630 in a better way so that we can boost our productivity 00:27:07.630 --> 00:27:12.869 and be in a better place to be able to trade 00:27:12.869 --> 00:27:19.779 with partners beyond the U .S. And with some 00:27:19.779 --> 00:27:21.720 of those projects, they're distributed across 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.980 the country. I've read that there's a geothermal 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:31.680 project on the West Coast. You've talked about 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.599 Grays Bay Trans Mountain Pipeline might still 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:40.160 come out of this as an important part of what's 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.140 trying to achieve. Is that correct? Yeah, that's 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:45.920 a great example of a project that has been completed. 00:27:48.589 --> 00:27:53.369 Cedar LNG is another one, the Coastal Gas Link. 00:27:54.470 --> 00:27:59.089 So we have been able to complete some projects 00:27:59.089 --> 00:28:02.970 in recent years. Hopefully there's been some 00:28:02.970 --> 00:28:08.269 learnings through those. Hopefully these newer 00:28:08.269 --> 00:28:14.109 projects won't take as long. And it's hard to 00:28:14.109 --> 00:28:17.410 imagine in this day and age. a project being 00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:20.430 designated as in the national interest against 00:28:20.430 --> 00:28:23.869 the objections of the Indigenous people who would 00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:30.369 be affected by it. So regardless of what the 00:28:30.369 --> 00:28:35.470 law says, there's probably an effective veto 00:28:35.470 --> 00:28:40.109 that Indigenous people have over these projects. 00:28:41.349 --> 00:28:44.349 Government is saying all the right things, but 00:28:44.349 --> 00:28:47.480 the language... It's not in the legislation, 00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:52.420 and that's where some Indigenous groups have 00:28:52.420 --> 00:28:55.839 a lot of difficulty. Yes, and I'm not sure the 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.099 last time national interest has been used in 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:04.180 Canada. Actually, it's of course a well -known 00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:07.019 phrase, so is it in the national interest? But 00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:10.859 I can't remember the last time, except maybe 00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:14.559 the free trade discussion between Prime Minister 00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:18.569 Mulroney and President Reagan at the time when 00:29:18.569 --> 00:29:21.490 that word had such resonance and importance in 00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:24.970 Canada, which also shows this is a transformative 00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:29.470 moment. But I would think fortunately at this 00:29:29.470 --> 00:29:34.069 time, you know, there is the First Nations framework. 00:29:34.490 --> 00:29:37.670 We've moved on. The Indian Act is still there, 00:29:37.750 --> 00:29:42.299 but there's a whole new framework. resulting 00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:44.859 from the Constitution, some Supreme Court decisions 00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:49.319 over time that are changing, I guess, the parameters 00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:53.119 of these discussions. As you just said, and of 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:56.920 course, all these opinions are ourselves as individuals. 00:29:57.619 --> 00:30:00.940 It'd be difficult to see that the federal government 00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:03.519 says this project's in the national interest 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:08.339 and the concerned Indigenous people say we disagree. 00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.619 It is really difficult to imagine this going 00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:16.160 ahead. So maybe part of this process is to see 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:21.359 who's on board because there is a whole list 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.019 of potential projects. I'm sure we could come 00:30:24.019 --> 00:30:27.000 up with a list of 30 potential projects that 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.720 could be perceived as the national interest, 00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:32.059 but maybe only 10 or 15 are going to get on that 00:30:32.059 --> 00:30:35.240 short list that will be priorities for the country. 00:30:35.619 --> 00:30:39.069 Because also in terms of... This is a huge moment. 00:30:39.109 --> 00:30:41.349 It will require a huge investment at all levels. 00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:43.990 Canada has always survived on foreign capital. 00:30:44.150 --> 00:30:47.069 So it's also, you know, how do we bring in the 00:30:47.069 --> 00:30:49.329 funding for these different projects? How do 00:30:49.329 --> 00:30:50.930 we make sure the indigenous peoples get their 00:30:50.930 --> 00:30:55.470 rights and as rights holders, their, you know, 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:57.490 their shareholding in it? And how do we move 00:30:57.490 --> 00:30:59.190 forward on these projects? Because then you're 00:30:59.190 --> 00:31:02.490 going to have competing resources because there's 00:31:02.490 --> 00:31:05.450 a limit to how much the labor force can deliver, 00:31:05.609 --> 00:31:10.690 right? There does have to be priorities. So that 00:31:10.690 --> 00:31:13.069 will be interesting. Absolutely. And I would 00:31:13.069 --> 00:31:15.849 be shocked when the list does come out. I mean, 00:31:15.869 --> 00:31:18.650 we're all waiting for a so -called list of the 00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:22.329 national interest projects, whether it be a list 00:31:22.329 --> 00:31:27.049 or one at a time, just a couple initially. I 00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:30.730 would be shocked if those initial projects didn't 00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:35.809 have pretty clear, significant Indigenous support. 00:31:36.670 --> 00:31:39.970 And that probably means participation in equity, 00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:44.650 meaningful participation. There are government 00:31:44.650 --> 00:31:49.869 support programs to help Indigenous people financially 00:31:49.869 --> 00:31:54.410 buy into projects like this. International investors 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:59.829 are looking more and more at the financial opportunities 00:31:59.829 --> 00:32:09.289 to help. So we'll see. Who knows when those projects 00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:13.049 initially will be designated. Some people think 00:32:13.049 --> 00:32:15.930 it could be this summer. Others think the fall. 00:32:17.509 --> 00:32:21.490 I imagine there's an awful lot of consulting 00:32:21.490 --> 00:32:26.910 going on to make sure that there's as few objections 00:32:26.910 --> 00:32:30.710 from different rights holders and stakeholders 00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:35.710 before these projects get... Publicly designated. 00:32:36.390 --> 00:32:39.289 I'd like to make a couple of comments. One about 00:32:39.289 --> 00:32:42.269 Prime Minister Carney at the moment seems to 00:32:42.269 --> 00:32:46.549 be demonstrating that leadership and listening 00:32:46.549 --> 00:32:52.529 because I haven't heard a lot of negative comments 00:32:52.529 --> 00:32:57.910 about his role and what he's doing in terms of 00:32:57.910 --> 00:33:00.829 the direction. There's some questions, but they 00:33:00.829 --> 00:33:05.450 think this person is credible. So we can have 00:33:05.450 --> 00:33:08.890 some serious discussions, which I think is really 00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:11.849 important. And I think, do you agree with that 00:33:11.849 --> 00:33:13.890 assessment, Rob? I think the country's behind 00:33:13.890 --> 00:33:16.849 it. For the most part, yeah. I mean, there hasn't 00:33:16.849 --> 00:33:20.849 been, I haven't seen unity amongst premiers and 00:33:20.849 --> 00:33:23.289 the prime minister like you're seeing right now. 00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:27.849 Yes. Both ways. It was at Stampede a couple of 00:33:27.849 --> 00:33:30.190 weeks ago in Calgary. I know you keep telling 00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:32.430 me about this and I haven't been for a long time. 00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:35.710 It's like next year. The Ontario government was 00:33:35.710 --> 00:33:38.690 out in full force. The premier was there, signed 00:33:38.690 --> 00:33:42.130 an MOU about doing more trade, reducing trade 00:33:42.130 --> 00:33:46.369 barriers. Albertans and Ontarians, arm in arm, 00:33:46.529 --> 00:33:52.170 was great to see and very serious about working 00:33:52.170 --> 00:33:56.529 closer together. There was a poll by a respected 00:33:56.529 --> 00:33:59.529 pollster just released this week that said 73 00:33:59.529 --> 00:34:04.019 % of Canadians now would favour a new... oil 00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:09.320 and gas pipeline, either going east or west. 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:15.599 Wow. Canadians are unified. The prime minister 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.780 is still in a bit of a honeymoon period. Indigenous 00:34:17.780 --> 00:34:21.900 people, I think, respect him, but at the same 00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:25.420 time are angry that this bill has been passed 00:34:25.420 --> 00:34:30.010 and now he's consulting. And we're not clear 00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:32.710 on what the consultation process will look like 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:34.550 going forward. There have been some hard -fought 00:34:34.550 --> 00:34:37.690 battles. And some of these processes, they would 00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:40.050 like to streamline and sidestep. Indigenous people 00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:42.429 have relied on as part of their consultation 00:34:42.429 --> 00:34:48.190 right over the years. And we're not sure what 00:34:48.190 --> 00:34:56.500 is going to be in its place. And the government 00:34:56.500 --> 00:35:00.619 is saying, trust us, trust us. Yes. And I guess 00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:05.320 the other component of this is I think defense 00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:11.420 will have to feature in these projects. For the 00:35:11.420 --> 00:35:14.460 first time in a long time, Canada really hasn't 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:18.719 been focused on what do we invest in defense? 00:35:19.099 --> 00:35:22.900 What do we want to defend? And how do we plan 00:35:22.900 --> 00:35:26.170 to defend it? And what do we do? And we don't, 00:35:26.170 --> 00:35:30.510 we're not in such a, the world is not calm anymore. 00:35:30.829 --> 00:35:34.130 War in Europe, wars across the world as there 00:35:34.130 --> 00:35:38.449 has been, you know, in Asia, Thailand, Cambodia 00:35:38.449 --> 00:35:43.050 are acting up. Africa continues to suffer from 00:35:43.050 --> 00:35:47.369 a number of wars. South America has some instability. 00:35:48.250 --> 00:35:53.349 The Arctic is melting. The Russians are. aggressive 00:35:53.349 --> 00:35:56.670 and have been building icebreakers. China wants 00:35:56.670 --> 00:36:01.530 a seat at the table at the Arctic, in the Arctic 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:05.530 forums. The Arctic's melting. And Canada no longer 00:36:05.530 --> 00:36:09.230 has a frozen tundra. And it's not possible to 00:36:09.230 --> 00:36:12.829 come across. It's changed. It's changed completely. 00:36:13.949 --> 00:36:17.610 So Canada will need to make investments because 00:36:17.610 --> 00:36:19.429 we haven't made investments for a long time. 00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:21.130 At the end of the Cold War, there was the dew 00:36:21.130 --> 00:36:23.820 line. part of NORAD, that was important. But 00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:27.460 since then, Canada really took the choice between 00:36:27.460 --> 00:36:29.739 guns and butter and said, well, we're going to, 00:36:29.739 --> 00:36:33.519 we'll let our southern neighbor worry about the 00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:35.960 guns because they'll always defend us anyway. 00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:38.500 Even though nobody thought, well, if they're 00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:40.099 shooting missiles, they're probably going to 00:36:40.099 --> 00:36:42.639 get shot down over Canada. But we didn't think 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.300 about that because a bit of the bubble sometimes 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:48.619 Canada's in, well. The world is nice and we don't 00:36:48.619 --> 00:36:50.280 have to worry about these things, but we found 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.400 out the world is not nice, as it always has been. 00:36:54.139 --> 00:36:56.739 Yeah, a big part of all of this. Absolutely. 00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:00.340 A big part of this one Canadian Economy Act isn't 00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:02.760 just about the economy. It's about sovereignty 00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:06.239 and national security. And so you'll see that 00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.860 feature in some of these national interest projects 00:37:09.860 --> 00:37:16.300 as well. So sovereignty, national security. the 00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:20.199 economy, it is a real defining moment for Canada. 00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:24.679 So these projects that are coming up, whether 00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.699 they come out one at a time or there's a series, 00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:32.059 Canada's going to be on the radar for investors 00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:35.420 because through this process, we will have a 00:37:35.420 --> 00:37:38.500 way to get things done. That in the past, instead 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:41.679 of fighting to get one project, there is an overall 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:44.809 vision. that everybody's buying into, yes, we 00:37:44.809 --> 00:37:49.010 need to do this. Now the question is how, and 00:37:49.010 --> 00:37:52.329 to make sure everybody's on board with it. Yeah, 00:37:52.389 --> 00:37:54.650 let's see if the federal and provincial governments 00:37:54.650 --> 00:37:58.690 can thread that needle, speed up the processes, 00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:01.349 give more certainty to investors, at the same 00:38:01.349 --> 00:38:06.349 time respect Indigenous rights and things like 00:38:06.349 --> 00:38:08.949 the UN Declaration. on the rights of Indigenous 00:38:08.949 --> 00:38:11.989 peoples, which requires the free, prior, informed 00:38:11.989 --> 00:38:15.909 consent of Indigenous peoples who might be affected 00:38:15.909 --> 00:38:21.090 by these national interest projects. Yes, but 00:38:21.090 --> 00:38:24.690 if they don't thread the needle, I can't see 00:38:24.690 --> 00:38:27.670 things going ahead. We live in a different time. 00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:35.460 I just don't see how, with a constitution, A 00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.639 written constitution. We're no longer just, you 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:39.400 know, parliament is sovereign. There's a written 00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:41.780 constitution. The rights of the Indigenous people 00:38:41.780 --> 00:38:44.739 are guaranteed. The provinces have always been 00:38:44.739 --> 00:38:48.340 very strong. We have to all work together and 00:38:48.340 --> 00:38:52.039 work it out. And that requires leadership at 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:57.039 all levels, whether it's for a particular Indigenous 00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:01.920 nation who have a strong governance structure, 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:04.699 actually, most of the Indigenous nations. with 00:39:04.699 --> 00:39:08.480 a chief, with elders, and that seven -generation 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.099 thinking. I think actually there's a lot that 00:39:12.099 --> 00:39:14.960 the country can benefit at this time because 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:18.760 of the approach Indigenous peoples take to decisions 00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:26.739 like this. So yes, they need to agree how to 00:39:26.739 --> 00:39:29.780 go about it. But the questions they are asking 00:39:29.780 --> 00:39:33.590 are actually questions all Canadians. should 00:39:33.590 --> 00:39:37.530 be asking when we're doing major projects, because 00:39:37.530 --> 00:39:41.469 it's about how will this impact our country down 00:39:41.469 --> 00:39:45.949 the road, right? We have to make good long -term 00:39:45.949 --> 00:39:48.610 decisions, and they certainly bring that perspective. 00:39:50.240 --> 00:39:52.500 Yeah, there's national interest. There's also 00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:54.780 local interest because it's the Indigenous people 00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:57.860 who will be living with these decisions in their 00:39:57.860 --> 00:40:01.760 communities for generations to come. And so you 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:05.719 can understand why they want to take the time 00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:08.019 that's needed to make the right decisions and 00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:11.159 get these things, get these projects done properly. 00:40:12.219 --> 00:40:14.219 Right. And what are some of the benefits the 00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:16.059 Indigenous people are looking at with these projects? 00:40:16.940 --> 00:40:21.300 Let's move on to that side. How do they see their 00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:25.059 role once the project's agreed and they're supportive 00:40:25.059 --> 00:40:28.079 of it? They're not just looking to be, oh, good, 00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:31.019 we've got to share the project as rights holders. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.380 They want development for their community. There's 00:40:36.380 --> 00:40:38.659 a whole question of infrastructure that hasn't 00:40:38.659 --> 00:40:42.880 been provided still after all these years in 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:46.059 their community. So there's a number of items 00:40:46.059 --> 00:40:50.289 on their list. Can you? Talk about some of those. 00:40:51.449 --> 00:40:55.630 Yeah, for sure. The days of promising some jobs 00:40:55.630 --> 00:41:00.670 or some sort of royalty or revenue stream from 00:41:00.670 --> 00:41:03.090 a project that might affect Indigenous peoples, 00:41:03.170 --> 00:41:08.090 I think, are long gone. And Indigenous people 00:41:08.090 --> 00:41:10.130 want a seat at the table. They want to understand 00:41:10.130 --> 00:41:13.449 the business. They want to be a part of the business, 00:41:13.590 --> 00:41:17.460 the decision -making, the planning. They want 00:41:17.460 --> 00:41:21.559 the infrastructure to benefit their communities 00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:26.460 as well. There's a massive infrastructure gap 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:30.639 within Indigenous communities around Canada. 00:41:30.820 --> 00:41:34.500 They want a seat at the board table. They want 00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:42.199 participation. And they want their sovereignty 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:48.420 respected as well. Wow. So it's transformative 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.579 opportunity for the country and for the Indigenous 00:41:51.579 --> 00:41:55.360 peoples as well, because if we thread the needle, 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.239 and I say we because we as a country have to 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:04.559 do that, if we're successful, the fabric of the 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.300 land called Canada is going to be stronger than 00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:13.239 it ever has been. Absolutely. And we'll be a 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:15.829 real unique country. I know the Commonwealth, 00:42:16.050 --> 00:42:20.369 Rob, when we had some of our Indigenous leaders 00:42:20.369 --> 00:42:23.190 come over to the summit this past year and were 00:42:23.190 --> 00:42:25.690 fortunate to join the Commonwealth Trade Investment 00:42:25.690 --> 00:42:28.610 Summit, there was a lot of interest there from 00:42:28.610 --> 00:42:31.670 other Commonwealth nations about how Canadian 00:42:31.670 --> 00:42:35.190 Indigenous people had got to this position. And 00:42:35.190 --> 00:42:38.550 some of it's historic with treaties, but it's 00:42:38.550 --> 00:42:40.630 also because there's a whole generation enabled 00:42:40.630 --> 00:42:42.670 and empowered, such as people like yourselves 00:42:42.670 --> 00:42:45.349 and others. who are in those non -Indigenous 00:42:45.349 --> 00:42:47.949 organizations shaping those decisions. So I think 00:42:47.949 --> 00:42:52.170 there's a lot of lessons for the world on this. 00:42:52.250 --> 00:42:54.670 So Canada, which always likes to present itself 00:42:54.670 --> 00:43:01.269 as a progressive nation in other terms, this 00:43:01.269 --> 00:43:05.150 is a chance for us really to demonstrate to the 00:43:05.150 --> 00:43:12.110 world about how can a country with strong Indigenous 00:43:12.110 --> 00:43:14.920 people and... And rights, how can it all come 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.440 together to be something more than the sum of 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:23.039 its parts? So very interesting. Yeah, it's an 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.860 exciting time. Interesting times. As always, 00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:29.500 there is political will. There's will amongst 00:43:29.500 --> 00:43:33.539 Indigenous people, I believe, to do this, to 00:43:33.539 --> 00:43:37.119 get this done, but to do it in the right way. 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:41.019 OK, well, probably since the Toronto Maple Leafs 00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:43.880 haven't won since 1967, that's calmed down the 00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.159 rest of the country. And, you know, Ontario can 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.179 come to the stampede now because, you know what, 00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:49.980 we might probably get the Stanley Cup before 00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:54.539 they do. So let's let's let's welcome them out 00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:59.039 west. Anyway, great to catch up today, Rob. You 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:02.139 too, Mark. A lot going on. I hope the sun continues. 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:06.260 And of course, August is around the corner. And 00:44:06.260 --> 00:44:08.659 post -pandemic, I mean, everybody goes to cottage 00:44:08.659 --> 00:44:11.800 during the summer in Canada. But post -pandemic, 00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:14.340 I think August has become a very special time 00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:19.840 where everybody just lays back and enjoys a few 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:23.260 weeks as much as they can. It's cottage and powwow 00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:25.719 season. Powwow season is in full flight right 00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:28.500 now. Okay, it started as well. So can you describe 00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:31.340 to our listeners what powwow season is, just 00:44:31.340 --> 00:44:34.840 so they understand? These are indigenous community. 00:44:35.820 --> 00:44:40.800 festivals, celebrating local Indigenous traditions, 00:44:41.059 --> 00:44:46.679 usually involving a lot of dance and song and 00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:51.340 drumming and great food. Okay, wow. And taking 00:44:51.340 --> 00:44:53.360 place across the nation. So have you been to 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:56.360 a powwow for the Mohawks or other Indigenous? 00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.719 No, ours will be Tyendinaga, Mohawks of the Bay 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.840 of Quinte. We've got our powwow in early August. 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.030 I'll be there in a couple of weeks. Great. Well, 00:45:06.130 --> 00:45:08.969 enjoy the powwow and enjoy the time at the cottage 00:45:08.969 --> 00:45:13.170 and we'll catch up again soon. Very good. Bye 00:45:13.170 --> 00:45:17.650 for now, Mark. Cheers. Bye, Rob. Thank you for 00:45:17.650 --> 00:45:19.829 joining Rob and I today in a special podcast 00:45:19.829 --> 00:45:22.170 where we discussed an issue of critical importance 00:45:22.170 --> 00:45:25.010 for our listeners and viewers. Be sure to share, 00:45:25.130 --> 00:45:27.130 subscribe and leave a review on your favorite 00:45:27.130 --> 00:45:30.190 podcast channel. Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. 00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:31.369 Until next time.