Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacken, my co -host Robert Brantanar,
joined today by Shanna Martineau. She is the
CEO of the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation,
AIOC, bringing over 30 years of experience in
banking and investing. She's played a key role
in advancing Indigenous involvement in Alberta's
major sectors, from natural resources and agriculture
to tech and healthcare. Under her leadership,
AIOC has been nationally recognized for its work
in economic reconciliation and inclusion. Shanna
Martineau, thanks very much for joining us on
Drumbeats. Great to see you again. Good to see
you, Rob. Thank you so much for having me. Yes,
welcome. Shanna, who's Chief Executive Officer
of the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation.
Good morning, Mark. Good to see you as well.
Glad to be with you this morning. Shanna, I have
to start out by thanking you for the great hospitality
recently in Calgary there for the Stampede and
AIOC through a fantastic party. We were so glad
you could join us. We had close to 600 of our...
our partners and friends and contacts and we
were glad that you were an important guest in
that group so it was great to have you and have
you experienced stampede for the first time yeah
that was literally my first rodeo uh and but
i will be back and you'll never be the same uh
the whole week was was great and i can see the
attraction such a great week to catch people
Chiefs and business people and other government
leaders are particularly pleased to see Ontario
government out in full force and at your party
as well, enjoying the hospitality and building
closer ties with Albertans. Absolutely. I think,
you know, one of the benefits, and I wonder if
we'll look back at this time and thank the Trump
administration. for what they've done to bring
Canadians together. I'm so thrilled to see Canadians
from coast to coast rallying together around
our economic opportunity, our nationhood, and
our growth opportunities together. And so I think
Stampede really reflected that, and you're seeing
a lot of cross -country collaboration, inspiration
in a way that we haven't for a long time. So
I think there's brighter times ahead. Yes, I
think so as well. The Stampede is actually the
world's largest rodeo. It is. Right. So it's
something they haven't figured out down South
clearly because they'd be, you know, trying to
take that one over, but it is the world's largest
rodeo, which is great. And it's always been a
destination. If you're out West, you know, the
Stampede, you know, is the iconic event on the
calendar. So that's great that everybody came
out to it this year. And I think you're right.
It is. something that we'll look back at. This
is a defining period for Canada, our growth to
be the country for everyone that we all want
it to be. So I think, you know, we'll see where
that takes us. And certainly there's a lot going
on at the moment with what Prime Minister Carney
is trying to achieve, the feedback, all the projects.
Here we are in early, early July. And just before
we get going in depth. Can you tell our listeners
and for those who are watching a little bit about
the painting in the background? Oh, sure. Thanks
for asking. So the painting behind me is completed
by an artist out of Saskatchewan, Greg Hardy.
He's getting no royalties for this, by the way.
He's someone that I have long admired and he
paints. in Lac La Ronge in northern Saskatchewan
and as you know I'm from I'm Frog Lake First
Nations from that Cold Lake region in northeastern
Alberta and Lac La Ronge isn't so far from my
homeland and so this is like a little slice of
home for me and it just reminds me of that whole
region and nature and so it's super important.
I'm happy that I get to share it with you via
this podcast. Great. It's absolutely beautiful.
Shanna, tell us a little bit about your upbringing
and also Frog Lake First Nation. Sure. So Frog
Lake First Nation is northeastern Alberta, as
I mentioned, sort of that Cold Lake area. And
so most famous maybe for an airbase in the country.
My parents left Frog Lake. They were they were
teen parents. It was a bit of a scandal. You
know, I was born to a teen mom and an indigenous
dad, which is, you know, in small town Alberta
in those days was. something that caused a lot
of stir. Small town Ontario too, too. Yes, absolutely.
Sounds like we're a similar background. And so,
you know, and at that period of time, there wasn't
a lot of economic opportunity either. My parents
moved to the city. They got married after I was
born. So they were 18 and 20. Moved to the city
three hours away, in three hours now. In those
days, the roads were bad and cars were poor.
And so they were a long ways from any support
at all. When you think about young parents. And
then they had my brother two years later. And
so times were really, really tough for them.
They persevered. It is amazing where we were
able to come to. I really talk about them being,
their resilience in particular, coming from...
My grandparents both set and my parents, both
my brother and I lead companies now. My mother
has passed, but my father, my brother and I are
all very aligned in business. really helping
to advance our people. My dad is active with
our nation still at 78 years old. I can barely
keep up with him. People ask me how I keep my
schedule and I wonder how he keeps his. But,
you know, we're all very passionate about helping
Indigenous people advance, thrive and grow with
the economic opportunities that we have today.
Sounds like it's in the genes. Now, where did
you go to school and how did you end up? What
took you to? AIOC where you are today? You know,
I went to the U of A. So I grew up in Edmonton.
I went to the U of A. I was the first person
in our extended family to graduate from university.
And my dad's the second youngest of seven and
my grandpa's one of 13. So if you think about
that, that's a lot of folks. And so I never forgot
the benefits that I had. But I was pretty determined
not to be a teenage mom. My parents were pretty
determined that I was not going to also be a
teenage mother because those cycles tend to repeat.
And so I went to university. I got a degree.
Jobs were pretty hard to come by in the early
90s. We were in a pretty significant recession.
But I managed to get a job with TD Bank Financial
Group. And I actually considered law, Rob, so
similar past you. But it was tough to get to
keep a job in those days. I had one in my hand
and I couldn't afford to be a student forever.
And so I just took it and I thought, well, you
can never go wrong with getting financial education
through banking. And, you know, as luck would
have it, they invested in me and I had a really
long career with them, more than 12 years and
moved through a lot of positions. So I took to
finance, really enjoyed it and then have ended
up in finance for my whole career in various
forms. I spent 14 years with Brenton Young, a
big four chartered accounting firm as well. So
learned a lot there, both through public sector
consulting and accounting tax with large corporate
partners. So that has all married well in this
role. When you think about it, I led some functions
for Canadian Western Bank post that time. So
when I looked at it at the time, my career felt
a little bit disparate. three different tranches
and very different types of roles. But now as
a crown CEO and doing this work with large scale
and business partnerships, I feel like I understand
the large corporate boardroom part. I understand
the corporate commercial banking parts. I understand
the nuts and bolts of banking all the way from
the ground up. So it's been a really interesting
journey for me. And I'm really grateful for that.
What I thought was a disparate bank background
coming into this. Even my work leading the public
sector practice in Alberta with Ernst & Young,
you know, it's interesting now that I'm a crown
CEO, how helpful that is in helping to navigate
the different government processes and those
sorts of things. So my advice to people starting
out their career or midway is have patience.
Things come together in ways you couldn't even
have imagined. My last two or three jobs, I didn't
even know they existed or maybe they didn't exist
before I was in them. And so it's... it's interesting
how life turns out sometimes. I think just in
terms of background for some of our listeners,
you know, in the nineties, that was the last
great debate we had in the country about our
relationship with the U S because that was, you
know, we were going free trade and the country
was rather split. Brian Mulroney, you know, convinced
the majority of Canadians. that, you know, free
trade with the U .S., which preceded NAFTA, was
the way to go. But as a result of that, there
was a very deep recession as firms realigned
north -south in the protected Canadian economy
that had been protected really since Confederation
was opened up to free trade with the U .S. and
then, you know, the impact of globalization.
So I think it's kind of interesting that we're
back after 35 years re -looking at that relationship.
And it was a lot of pain to go through at the
time. And unfortunately, there is going to be
pain again. But as we've talked about, it's going
to be an opportunity for Canada to reach its
full potential. One other point, just for Crown
CEO, could you describe to some of our listeners
over here in the UK who are quite familiar with
the Crown, but probably don't understand it necessarily
in the Canadian context, what exactly that means?
Sure. Thank you for that question, Mark. So as
a Crown CEO, Alberta Indigenous Opportunities
Corporation is a wholly owned entity by the Alberta
government. The Alberta government is a subsidiary
of the Canadian government, a province. And so
we are a provincial Crown corporation. We roll
up under the Ministry of Indigenous Relations,
but we operate at arm's length from the Crown.
So one of the very important aspects of this
is the separation of the economic and political.
influences. And so we report to an independent
board of directors who then reports into the
minister. So it's an interesting balancing act.
I think it's important that we all, it doesn't
matter which organization you're in, you are
still responsible to your shareholder or shareholders,
plural, whichever the case is for you. So we
are still responsible to the Alberta government
to deliver against our mandate. But removing
that day -to -day political influence or oversight
is helpful to keep us focused on economic outcomes.
I always talk about you don't want politicians,
well -intentioned as they are, to get involved
in the nuts and bolts of large corporate finance
and deal terms. We are focused on achieving the
best possible outcomes through our transactions
to support Indigenous peoples and the businesses
involved. You know, those transactions need to
work for all. through the process so maybe shanna
tell us a little bit more about the alberta indigenous
opportunities corporation how long has it been
around how do you operate what is your purpose
for being and in particular for our international
viewers and listeners and maybe some of them
don't understand some of the changes that have
happened in Canada over the last 10 years that
would help and facilitate these projects involving
Indigenous nations. I might be able to go on
with this at length, so we'll try to distill
it down to a bit of a simple overview. Canadians
went through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
to uncover and come to terms with really our
legacy of colonial history. what Indigenous people
went through in our country and what led to the
outcomes that we've had today. So Canada is not
unique in their Indigenous people having, if
I called them suboptimal, that would be understating
it, outcomes on almost every social measure across
our economic and societal spectrum. So we'll
leave it at that. The view was, let's be honest
with ourselves about how we got here. and what
the experience has been for Indigenous people.
Many recommendations came out of that Truth and
Reconciliation Commission led by Senator Murray
Sinclair. The result, Truth and Reconciliation
No. 92, was a call on corporate Canada to advance
economic opportunity for Indigenous peoples.
And so the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation
was created by the Alberta government in response
to TRC number 92. And it's been an interesting
evolution. So that was five years ago in 2019.
Since then, we've helped 43 First Nations and
Métis communities invest over $1 .5 billion through
$750 million in loan guarantees. And so a loan
guarantee... Basically, what happens there is
you act like a cosigner on a loan. So if someone
is trying to buy a home or a car, often your
younger folk in your life, the bank, wants to
verify their income, that they can repay the
debt. They also want to know that they have collateral.
If their credit isn't at a standard that they
are able to borrow, they'll ask for a cosigner
often to help support that. in essence, a loan
guarantee acts as that co -signature on a loan.
I know that's a very simple example, but if you
just imagine that on a very large scale, we deal
with large infrastructure projects, so pipelines,
power lines, power plants, those kinds of things,
but we enable Indigenous investment. And then
in return, part of the reconciliation is not
only access to large -scale capital that Indigenous
nations and communities wouldn't be able to access,
but also They get that capital at a much lower
rate than they would be able to obtain on their
own. And so that rate, that delta, is much closer
to a government of Alberta rate. And there is
the reconciliation as well. So they get that
economic impact of their investment. And it is
critical. Canadians have underinvested in our
First Nations, in our Métis communities in Alberta.
We have settlements which are defined areas where
the Métis live. We have underinvested in infrastructure,
in education, in services to those regions. And
so it is critical that they have access to economic
opportunities to be able to support their communities.
And I'll just remind your listeners or share
with your listeners that First Nations are responsible
as a sovereign government to their people. So
they must provide all of the services. When you
think about child welfare and education, all
of the services that you might think of another
government providing, the First Nations governments
provide for their people. And First Nations also,
part of our tradition is to support our elders.
And so when you think about utility, you know,
my band, and it's not a large band, they spend
over a million dollars just on the elders' utilities
every year. And is AIOC... Providing other forms
of support? Is it strictly guarantees of loans
at this point? Is there advisory services or
other products that you offer? And you talked
about the importance of energy. I think recently
you've expanded your mandate and you're looking
at many other sectors as well. Thank you for
the question, Rob. We also provide capacity grant
funding. Indigenous nations, settlements and
communities need advisors to help them assess
and close and negotiate these transactions. So
again, we talk about large scale infrastructure
projects. These are not simple transactions.
And so we provide capacity grant funding to help
them hire financial advisors, legal advice. environmental
advice, whatever they might need to be able to
negotiate and close those transactions. We also
join them at the table and we help provide all
parties a path through. So there are nuances
to having a loan guarantee, like having a third
leg to the stool to support those transactions.
Sometimes the two sides need a little bit of...
support in even just speaking each other's languages,
understanding what the other perspective is.
AIOC has a strong team of engagement professionals.
We have a strong team of capital markets investment
professionals, and we really help the whole process
come together with some creativity, some perseverance,
and some fortitude. I think these are large,
complex transactions and help everyone see the
art of the possible. Do investors, corporate
partners reach out to AIOC first? Or do the First
Nations, as an example, come to you and say,
we've been discussing this opportunity? How would
a foreign investor, corporate, whatever it takes,
right? All of the above. So we have done a lot
of reach out as AIOC to both corporate partners
and indigenous groups. And they will often both
come to us. It depends on who's leading the idea,
actually. So when we look at a transaction that
we recently closed, Dutchess Solar, Cold Lake
First Nation, led that transaction end -to -end.
They reached out to us. They negotiated with
the corporate partner, Elemental Energy. They
were really on the front lines of that transaction.
When we look at other transactions, often the
corporate partner wants to make sure that they're
thinking of the loan guarantee in a way that
makes sense and the way that it will be successful
before they approach their Indigenous partners.
So the loan guarantee is somewhat of a new product
in this region and in this type of investment.
You know, when you think about Export Development
Canada and so on, the loan guarantees are much
smaller in nature. They tend to be. And so they
will sometimes... Bring us information. We'll
look at their financial models. We will give
them advice on, you know, when to approach nations,
who they might want to consider. We don't ever
prescribe because, of course, it's very important
that the partnership is between the nation settlements,
you know, the Métis and the corporate partner.
But we will support both sides in those negotiations
and provide insight. And then we can help the
process. Sometimes we will join those discussions.
and help the conversations through. So all of
the above, and it just depends, you know, is
it starting with the financial model and noodling?
Is there enough return and enough security for
the loan guarantee? Or is it the nation saying,
hey, this is the kind of business we'd like to
do. How might that fit? And so we help the two
sides come through to that. So maybe just in
terms of the opportunities that are in front
of the country at the moment. You know, Prime
Minister Karnia said as part of their new mandate
that they want to proceed with, you know, a number
of critical projects, infrastructure and energy.
What is your take at the moment in this very
fluid moment? OK, so we know it might change.
Yes. But it's not happening on Twitter. So that's
kind of nice. We're not all waking up and find
out what is somebody announced. Right. But so
where do you see the situation at the moment?
I think it's a really exciting time. You know,
these things will take time. I hope and believe
that Bill C -5 and others like it across the
country are designed to speed up the government
processes, but still support and enable the rights
of Indigenous peoples through those processes.
So I believe, and the way that it's been described
to me, is that it's yes and. I do think that
the government bureaucracy could speed up, that
there's a lot of hesitancy in approving large
projects. So what's really exciting is the view
that people can come together and there are large
groups of people coming together to try to find
our way through economic prosperity in a way
that we, I don't think we as a nation have looked
at for a very long time. Our goal is really,
and I think the goals of all the governments
that I have had the opportunity to speak to and
listen to, their goal is that Indigenous people
are full partners at the table through these
large nation -building projects. And so I believe
where there's a will, there's a way. We will
find our way through that level of partnership.
We will find a way to get these projects done
to advance Canada's economic opportunities with
Indigenous people fully. involved as economic
partners. And so what an exciting time that is.
It's not going to be easy. Let's make no mistake.
But I think we have the right mix of factors
to have this come to fruition. And I will caveat
that I am an optimist always. So I believe that
we can do it. Yes. Well, I think Canada is an
optimistic country at its heart. Yeah. Right.
That's how we are where we are today, because
it wasn't preordained that there would be more
than one country on the North American continent.
And of course, there was many sovereign nations
before the settlers arrived, but they were many
nations themselves on Turtle Islands. So I think
it is something inherent in Canada. It's a small
C conservative country. You know, change has
to be brought in with everybody. on board as
much as possible because that's what succeeds
for our country up to date. And we have an opportunity
to be more inclusive than we've ever been before.
It's a very exciting time, Shanna. Great to have
Indigenous leaders like yourself at the forefront.
AIOC is really leading the way. There's lots
of government support. across the country now
at the federal level and provincial level but
AIOC has been doing it in a bigger way than than
most and so congratulations on that I was talking
recently with a foreign investor who said you
know we tried 15 years ago to do a big transaction
in Canada and it didn't work and so tell me what's
different and one of the things that's different
are leaders like you and things that AIOC are
doing to facilitate those transactions. They
did not exist 15 years ago. Absolutely. I was
going to say, Rob, give him my number. We'll
help him. That in itself is different because
there's this whole level of support and a framework
that is empowering the Indigenous nations. and
that governments have signed up for and are executing
to the best of their ability. And maybe we all
need to do more, of course, but it's in the right
direction. Just, Shanna, with Bill C -5, and
Rob just said he had a discussion, investor looked
at it, couldn't make it happen 15 years ago.
With the discussions around Bill C -5 at the
moment, there are some people outside the country,
investors, thinking, oh, here we go. How can
you help them understand this is a process to
get things done that is different and it's not
going to be a block? I would say that my view
of Bill C -5 is the goal is enablement. And so
the goal is to boldly say Canadians are going
to do things differently than we've done it in
the past. Now, there are big discussions going
on right now between Indigenous leaders and our
prime minister. And so it's our prime minister's
job to give our Indigenous leadership the view
and the promise, the commitment that that participation
will be inclusive and not run roughshod. So I
think he's got a very, very significant. uh job
in that not only does he have to bring our country
together but also indigenous people need to be
a part of the process in a meaningful way and
we need to be able to do that at pace and really
i think the view that if you can involve indigenous
people at the outset at the planning stages that
in in and of itself will help so instead of trying
to reroute let's say a pipeline Once it's been
fully planned and deployed and you're in consultation,
if you can do that planning before and then plan
your engineering, you know, the changes that
you can make, the speed at which you can do them
and the cost effectiveness at which you can do
them, I think accelerates quickly. So I think
there is opportunity here. It is not easy and
it will not be for the faint of heart, but I
think there is significant opportunity. And it
starts with. The intention, the will, and, you
know, it is a process. So I'm heartened. I'm
excited. I'm looking forward to what comes next.
And I think there is great opportunity. I would
say for your listeners and also for both foreign
and Canadian, I'm excited as well because the
loan guarantee programs across the country are
working together alongside the federal, the Canada
Indigenous Loan Guarantee Program. So we have
built these programs to enable those partnerships.
And so I think we need to start and continue
to build other parts of the Canadian economic
development with partnership, with full partnership
in mind. And together we can move mountains.
Absolutely. And when you add up those programs,
I think, and you must know the numbers better
than I do, but I think you get to about $20 billion.
of government support for Indigenous participation
in major projects. And again, that's $20 billion.
And I think probably more to come because there's
more jurisdictions that haven't announced yet,
right? So there will be more to come. I know
the Alberta government is very keen for us to
deploy. We have very strong support from our
provincial government too. to further enable
Indigenous partnerships. And so, you know, what
makes me really happy is they really view it
as good business. They view it as good for the
Alberta economy from the Western Canadian economy
to have Indigenous participation, both on an
enablement and on a maximizing economic benefit
front. And what's the AIOC's track record like
after operating now for five years? Have you
had any guarantees called? Any problems? Thanks
for asking, Rob. And I'm proud to say that we
have not. We have not taken a provision for credit
law. So this is my accounting hat coming on.
Too many years spent in an accounting firm. We
have not had a provision for credit loss. We
have not had a loss. We have closed nine transactions.
like I said, to enable investment by 43 distinct
nations and settlements in our region to invest
over $1 .6 billion. And so I think that record
stands on its own. We have a very thorough credit
vetting process. Like I said, our deals are creative.
They're a bit bespoke, but we have a high credit
hurdle, I would say, to have a group loan guarantee.
I make comments that it's not easy to get something
improved by our program, and I won't apologize
for that. We do have a responsibility to our
provincial jurisdiction to protect the taxpayer
dollars as well. So it's a, you know, you have
to thread the needle once in a while, but we've
been able to do it and to the benefit of Indigenous
people in our province and for the province as
a whole economically. It's an impressive record.
And Shani, you're involved not only with AIOC,
but you're on some other corporate boards as
well. And Synovus Energy and Alamos Gold. I mean,
I'm sure you get asked regularly to join boards,
but what interested you about these two companies
in particular? I'm really proud to be one of
very few Indigenous corporate directors in the
country. It's something I get a lot out of. those
corporate directorships as well. I learn a lot.
There's a couple of pieces. So one, both are
resource -based businesses and there's a lot
of resource -based aspects to the work that we
do at the AIOC. So I learn from a technical perspective.
I always start with the caliber of the people
and the organization. So both Alamo's Gold and
Synovus really represent values that align with
me personally, with my lived experience. And
with my professional goals, they are very strong,
high caliber companies. The caliber of their
people and their boards is outstanding. And they're
just something that you resonate with. I come
from a sports background. I think that you do,
too. And it's like building any team, a corporate
team and a sports team to me aren't that different.
Any kind of team. It could be a ballet troupe
or, you know. theater production. When you build
a team, you need strong people that are good
at all of their roles at the table to provide
the best product and outcome. And so I've really
experienced that through both of these board
directorships and through my team at AIRC. So
it's a privilege to be a part of them. You mentioned
your sporting background. Are you curling much
these days? I am not curling much these days.
I was a longtime curler, as I think you know.
Maybe just tell our listeners a bit about your
background. Oh, okay. Well, especially coming
from the UK. Because you just aren't throwing
rocks. No, no. I played at a provincial level
in Alberta. Some of the best teams in the world
emanate from this region. So the competition
is fierce. I played several Alberta seniors championships
recently. One, even when I was in this role.
But really, the time commitments, I'm now supporting
my daughter's sporting activities as well. So
one is rock climbing at a national level, and
one is also a soccer player, and they have other
sports as well. So now, between the work that
I do for Indigenous Peoples, the board work,
and supporting my girls' sporting careers through
their teen years, there just isn't much time.
I have to often just eat on the run, frankly.
But I'm a proud sports mom. I think there's a
significant correlation between success in sports
and that team environment and success in business.
I have really felt that myself and really encourage
that for all others. It's an avenue for you to
learn, grow, discipline, and it can help you
build your dreams. With my staff and with my
children, I always encourage them to follow their
dreams. And my parents really believed in me.
So I try to instill that in my teams, both my
work teams and my family. Yes, it sounds, I mean,
you've had a great career in sports and in commerce
and finance. And just coming back to what would
be some of the lessons you'd be sharing with
young Canadians? Indigenous and non -Indigenous,
about the crossroads the country is at and the
future opportunities that you see based on your
experience to date? I think with young people,
I have two stepchildren in their 20s as well.
There's a lot of doom and gloom on social media.
And so what I would encourage you to do is look
for the art of the possible. Look for the opportunity.
Don't get sidetracked into negativity. You know,
one of my staff used to say to me, there are
no problems for you, only challenges to overcome.
And I'm a big believer in where there's a will,
there's a way. And so believe in yourself, be
an optimist, find your way through. We've been
doing it for hundreds of years and we will find
our way through these issues now. So don't get...
don't get defeated by some of the negativity
and keep a steady state through those social
media, in particular ups and downs. It feels
like those channels can be so emotionally charged
and that's really where most people get their
information these days. So that would be my advice.
Okay, thank you for that. And obviously you didn't
grow up in Toronto, so you don't have the doom
and gloom of waiting for the Maple Leafs to win
a Stanley Cup because you're from the province
of Alberta. I'm from the land of the Oilers.
Exactly. Exactly. So you know what victory tastes
like. Absolutely. And anything is possible. You
know, keep dreaming and keep following your dreams
always. Yes. Great. The one thing that I would
say, and maybe you can tell me, is that I hear
that international investors are looking at Alberta
as a more attractive place to invest because
of our progressive relationships with Indigenous
peoples. That is what I hear from the Alberta
government and different arms. And so I think
that is part of the economic attraction piece
and one of the reasons why the loan guarantee
programs are starting to build across the country.
The loan guarantee programs, in my opinion, also
help to support the other aspects of the Indigenous
financial ecosystem. So it's another piece of
the puzzle to help fill in that picture. You
have FNFA, you have First Nations Bank, you have
Canada Infrastructure Bank. So there's lots of
different pieces of the puzzle there. You have
all the financial advisory services from organizations
like MNP and Deloitte with Radius and so on.
So I'm really excited about the growth of that
ecosystem. Longhouse, Cedar Capital, it's really
starting to fill in. But I'm proud of the rule
that Indigenous loan guarantee programs have.
played in enabling that system to grow and come
together. As well, you should. Shanna Martineau,
thank you for taking the time out to speak with
us on Drumbeats. Thank you so much. It has been
a pleasure to join you. Yes, thank you, Shanna.
Thank you to Shanna Martineau for sharing your
insights with us. And thank you for viewing and
listening. Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave
a review on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks
for listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.