Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brant
and I are joined today by Matt Jameson, CEO of
Six Nations of the Grand River Development Corporation,
to discuss how Indigenous -led enterprise is
driving sustainable economic transformation.
As the economic engine of Canada's largest First
Nation, the corporation was launched in 2015
with a clear mission to separate business from
politics and deliver lasting community benefits.
Under Matt's leadership, it has done just that,
generating $295 million in direct community benefits
and spearheading major infrastructure projects.
One standout success is the Oneida Energy Storage
Project, a $700 million 250 megawatt battery
facility completed ahead of schedule and under
budget. Developed through a multi -partner collaboration,
the project tackles renewable energy intermittency
and supports Canada's net zero goals. Throughout,
Matt has championed Indigenous leadership and
deep community engagement as the foundation of
sustainable and successful development. Well,
Matt Jameson. the President and CEO of the Six
Nations of the Grand River Development Corporation.
Welcome to Drumbeats. It's a real pleasure to
have this chance to chat. Well, Rob, thanks very
much for having me and I look forward to the
conversation with you and Mark. Yeah, great to
have you here, Matt. We're very, very pleased
to have you on with us to tell us what's going
on with Six Nations. Why don't you first of all
give us a bit of background about... Six Nations
and yourself and where you grew up and where
you are in the land called Canada. Okay, great.
Listen, always proud to talk about Six Nations.
Six Nations of the Grand River is the largest
First Nation in Canada. We're located about one
hour west of Toronto in the province of Ontario.
And I am a member, of course, of the community,
a member of the Tuscarora Nation. My father's
a Mohawk, a nation member. And Six Nations is
true to its name. It's one of the only jurisdictions
or territories. I think it's the only territory
in North America where all six Haudenosaunee
or Iroquois nations cohabitate within the same
footprint. And it really is a rich land. And
I'm really, really tremendously proud to represent
the interests of my people. For those who know,
you know, the Mohawk Nation is a powerful and
mighty. um tribal nation that uh you know we
we as a community you know hold ourselves in
high regard not only to do what's important but
also to set an example of what's possible and
so you know i grew up here at six nations under
the the leadership of two great parents my father
actually is a retired banker was the founding
uh executive for the bank of montreal's indigenous
banking unit across the country and so he charted
a path for me as a young man to see what's possible
My mother on the other hand. Yeah, my father,
Ron. Ron Jameson, a legend in Canadian banking
and Indigenous business circles. And to this
day, Rob, I follow in his footsteps. He's been
retired for over 20 years now, but he left a
legacy. And he also blazed some trails that I
think have been very helpful for many nations
across the country. In addition to that. Certainly,
I would say the real powerhouse in my household
as a child was my mother, Rebecca Jameson, who
is the CEO of the Six Nations Polytechnic. And
she, in and of herself, was also a trailblazer
in the education space. So, you know what, I
had the benefit of growing up in Canada's largest
First Nation by population under the leadership
of two fantastic parents who basically ingrained
in my mind that, you know what, the past doesn't
have to be indicative of the future. And, you
know, I was able to take that. Take that knowledge
that was transferred to me from my parents and
apply it in my own way to my community. Take
the Six Nations Development Corporation into
this new path of prosperity. So you grew up in
a great family and that set you off. Where did
you go to school then? Where did you get your
education that led you to a CEO of a large enterprise
like you are today? Well, I think from an academic
standpoint, I was a late bloomer. I was a kid
who grew up on the res, very much like many youth
grow up on a reserve, looking at ways, in many
cases, how do I preserve my ability to stay within
the protection mechanism of our community? And
it took me a while to actually go off and pursue
post -secondary academia. in the way that I have,
ultimately did go down that path. But when I
left the community, I initially worked in the
casino business in Ontario as it emerged in 1996.
And I was very good at it. That casino industry
took me into the United States. I spent time
in Nevada and New Jersey and the Caribbean. And
I got a lot of exposure to corporate America
and how they do business from the casino gaming
standpoint. And it was a valuable experience
for me. And as I said, I was good at it. But
at the same time, there was a moment of reckoning
for me. And that moment of reckoning came when
I started to reflect on what the output or the
value of creation that I was in pursuit of. And,
you know, I quickly dawned on me that, you know,
that space was not sustainable, not sustainable
for me as an individual, but not sustainable
for society generally. And so I did pursue a
post -secondary education while I was in that
gaming space. I went to Athabasca University.
Eventually finished an MBA there and then went
on to the Rotman School of Business and did the
Institute of Chartered Directors designation
program, all of which while I was working. But,
you know, that education, as I went through those
institutions, also validated a lot of the learning
that I had picked up along the way. And, you
know, I would say that, you know, the pursuit
of my career, ultimately coming back home, I
often describe, you know, my arrival back on
the doorstep of the community as it was really
too. two different channels. One, my mother was
pulling me to come home because there was a need
in our community for someone who had an understanding
of the gaming market, but also was prepared or
capable of helping advance the economic agenda
for the community. The other pull was our former
chief Bill Montour, who has since passed away.
Bill was a great chief who had encouraged me
to come home and said, you know, I need you to
come home and help us with this particular agenda.
And, you know, One time in my career, I worked
for a CEO and he was pushing me to do something
that I really didn't want to do. And he said,
Matt, you know, the web of comfort in your job
is the same web that holds you back. And I always
looked at that web of comfort in the community
as being my comfort zone as a young man. And
when I broke through, I never wanted to come
home. It wasn't until I drive across the... over
the bridge of the Grand River, which is very,
very important to our community, where when I
came home for the second time, I felt comfortable.
I knew I was home and I was home to stay. And
it was that journey home over that bridge, breaking
back through that barrier, that really became
my 2 .0 in life. What I do now is a reconciliation
for, I'd say, some of the damage I caused in
the casino gaming industry to individuals by
creating... you know, consequences as a result
of, you know, people in their gaming, in their
gaming behaviors. And now what I do is I create
value. I create value, not for myself, not for
a casino operator, but for the community and
the next seven generations. And that's what keeps
me coming to work. So what year was, would that
have been Matt? When you came back? I came back
in 2000 and 2009. I broke into the casino gaming
business in 1996 and I spent, uh all that time
until 2009 uh until i came home to the community
and at that time chief bill went to her you know
as i mentioned earlier was advocating for new
leadership and when i landed in the community
i was in an advisory capacity for the elected
council and six nations was no different than
any other nation tribal nation in the country
and even in the united states strong aspirations
to get involved in business strong aspirations
to own and participate in the economy but lacked
the strategic underpinning and focus to actually
execute and be successful in that capacity. I
often talk across the country to other Indigenous
economic development folks, and I say, you know
what? The most important and the greatest idea
was the one that the chief and council heard
the night before. And as a result, economic development
folks are constantly spinning their wheels because
the politicians don't want to miss out on the
opportunity. They focus on trying to be everything
to everyone and an expert at nothing. And it
was through my work when I came back under the
leadership of Chief Bill Montour where I quickly
realized that we needed to create an institution
to separate business from politics. The Harvard
study on American Indian economic development
became a playbook of ours and was the key underpinnings
to what ultimately became the Six Nations Development
Corporation. Separating business from politics
has been our secret ingredient. for the last
decade to achieve the level of success that we
have had. And so you were instrumental in setting
up the development corporation that you lead
today. And at that time, when it was set up,
2015 -ish, there wouldn't have been a lot of
development corps out there. It was something
new. And so tell us a little bit about how that...
and what the vision was? Well, Rob, it was definitely
a journey. So the corporation launched in 2015
and the council themselves had given me the agenda
in 2010. So I was here for about a year and I
came up with this whole proposal. And, you know,
I brought it to the chief of council. I said,
this is the path that we need to pursue as a
community. And they said, well, Matt, go ahead
and go. But the chief, Bill, at the time said
to me, Matt, well, the question is, how long
are you going to be here? Because we don't want
to start this agenda and then you're going to
leave. And my response to him was, Bill, I'm
going to be here as long as I can get stuff done.
The moment I can get stopped for political reasons
is the day I leave. So the real question is,
how long do you want me here? And you know what?
The chief and council at that time gave me the
autonomy to pursue this agenda, to create this
corporation. It took five years. We spent, you
know. Many, many sessions in the community, dinners,
coffee, people in community members' living rooms
having tea and having discussions about what's
the sensitivity of a federal corporation finding
its way into the Six Nations territory. And there
was apprehension and there was pessimistic points
of view on, do we need this institution? But
nonetheless, it was a journey of five years.
until the corporation was actually launched.
And during that five years, I actually obtained
38 different council resolutions to keep them
in pace with what was happening and why we're
doing it. And as we went through this agenda
with the community, we didn't just explain what
we were doing to the community. We explained
why we were doing it and what it meant for them
as people, as citizens. And you know what? That's
really important as business is transacted within
nations across this country. The agenda for progress
and output and outcomes isn't one -sided. We
have to translate what that means for the citizens
and what it means for their children, for them
to really buy in and really latch on to opportunity.
And once they do, they can become incredibly
strong advocates for what's possible. And so
it was those key underpinnings that happened
from 2010 to 2015 that really informed the key
tenets of who we are, what our institutional
identity is. And it's founded on the principles
of transparency and accountability. And everything
that we do, everything that I do under the leadership
of our board of directors is, you know, has to
be governed by our social license to operate
on behalf of the people. I'm only as good as
our last bad decision, right? Fascinating story,
Matt. And, you know, the words you just used,
social license, right, is so important. And where
I've obviously been over in London, worked internationally,
I have... most of my career and what you're talking
about in that process really isn't out of context
of how people work in many societies around the
world it's it is different in turtle island or
what's now called north america where it's like
oh get things done we got the deal done right
away on onwards but what you're talking about
getting that commitment of the community behind
and as you said once they're committed they become
true champions and this is how the decisions
that you take and indigenous peoples this seven
generations concept that many in the west have
now picked up oh sustainability and we've got
to look after the planet well we should have
been doing that a lot longer and a lot of us
would have been always in purpose -driven businesses
if we'd really been thinking but now that sets
a platform for long -term success because they've
accepted they've understood and now they're committed
and i'm sure they feel the ownership and responsibility
of what you're trying to achieve with your corporation.
So thank you for sharing that. I think that's
a really helpful background for our listeners.
Yeah, it certainly is representative of one of
the paths of progress, right? If you look back
at the history in Canada, and specifically the
history of Six Nations, we've been engaged in
land litigation, treaty litigation with the Crown
for 30 years on one particular claim. And we
have not yet got our day in court. So you see
that the legal pathway is there. It's navigating
a legal system that wasn't necessarily crafted
or created for our interests. But nonetheless,
we are navigating that in the pursuit of justice
and reconciliation. And then there is the other
path, which often gets all the headlines, which
is the path of disruption, protest. You see that
front and center on all the major newspapers
where, geez, you know what? There's a hostility
here. But you could imagine that if you're a
youth growing up for the last two or three generations
and you were hearing firsthand from your ancestors
that there's no progress here, that suddenly
disruption becomes a path. And it has happened.
And then there's the path which I choose, which
is the boardroom. And the path to the boardroom
hinges on that social license to operate, Mark,
and how we do things. We need to stay true to
our identity and our authenticity of who we are
and how we do things. But when we find opportunity
that's on our terms, we are the strongest advocates
and we can move mountains in the marketplace.
And we have done that in the energy markets here
in Ontario. So true, Matt. And when you talk
about those different paths, I mean, one of the
reasons, one of the drivers for the Canadian
Indigenous Investment Summit. in london every
year and this podcast drum beats is to make the
international audience especially aware that
there are these other paths i've had situations
in london sitting in london with a client uh
where a client has looked at his phone and said
there's a brandt blockading a railway in canada
somewhere related to you um and those are the
types of stories that hit the headlines uh in
london and there's bit of a perception that all
Indigenous people are against all development.
And that's certainly not true when it's done
the right way, when it's approached in the right
way. Indigenous peoples can be very, very supportive.
And as you said, the best partners. You've proved
that time and time again. Sorry, Rob. What was
your answer? In that particular case, yeah, I
was a cousin. Just so everybody recognizes the
importance of the Brant name, the first four
kings who came over to visit Queen Anne, one
of them was the grandfather of Joseph Brant.
And then, of course, Chief Joseph Brant is famed
for his loyalty to the British and fighting for
his nation. And that's the connection. So Rob
and I have. So if anybody's questioning about
Rob Brant's commitment to... economic development
and reconciliation he's 150 behind it uh without
rob and matt and mark i mean we're all we've
all got a tie -in well there might be an odd
cousin though on the brand side we're not sure
of but you you can you can go have a chat with
them rob maybe we need a family call and meet
all the brands one day anyways i know well the
mohawks after the american revolution in upper
new york state moved up first to Montreal and
then came down when land was deeded by the crown
as compensation for the land lost in New York
as a result of that war. And so my family settled
in Tyendinaga territory between Toronto, Montreal,
and others went on with Chief Joseph Brandt to
Six Nations where Matt is today. That's right.
Yes. So my ancestors came up from Schenectady,
New York, all the Scottish. Wanted to be one
of the dictator across the pond instead of down
the street. And in the past 10 years, we've proved
ourselves right twice that that was a good decision.
Anyway, why don't we hear about Ontario Oneida
Energy Storage? Because this is really something.
Yeah, just your latest project. Yeah. So I'll
step back a little bit before we talk about ANITA.
I'll step back to as far back as 2011. So as
we were in the formative stages of creating the
Six Nations Development Corporation, we were
in parallel in discussions with developers, wind
developers, solar developers here in Ontario.
There was a feed -in tariff program under the
government of Ontario at the time, which incentivized
development of renewable energy assets. And we
were like, hey, this is one of those opportunities
that... allows us to participate in the economy
in a way that's aligned with our values. This
is green carbon -reducing assets. This is going
to harness the value and the power of Mother
Earth to create value, not just for us, but for
future generations. So we quickly aligned ourselves
with key developers in the region, and we're
able to leverage our position to participate
as equity investors and owners of large -scale
wind and solar. And so we've got almost two gigawatts
of renewable energy generation that we're invested
in in the market. As an investor or owner in
those assets, though, we quickly saw the intermittent
nature of the wind and the sun and how these
assets produce value. At the same time, in parallel
with that volatility of production, we also heard
from our neighbors. On one hand, they're looking
at a wind turbine out of their window. And on
the other hand, they're looking at their hydro
bill. The power bill is going up. They're associating
one with the other. And in some cases that was
true because the contracts that were awarded
back in 2010, 2014, 2013, they were lucrative
because the province of Ontario was attempting
to spur investment, to spur economic growth,
to create a new economy here, the green economy
in Ontario. And so we as an investor and a neighbor,
we heard very clearly that, you know, there was
this frustration around energy generation assets,
renewable generation assets. But we know... It
was emotional to us. We wanted to be involved
in more renewable energy development. But we
knew that there was no solution in the market
to harness this great value that was being produced.
When the wind is blowing at night, when the sun
is shining during the day and people aren't using
the power, it's being lost. And there was no
way to harness that great value. And so in 2017,
we met a small company in Toronto called InterStore.
And InterStore are experts in energy storage.
Very small, nimble boutique shop. experts at
what they do. We put our heads together here
at Six Nations in our boardroom and talked about
what's possible. How can we build something,
a large battery storage facility that's going
to harness this value, be a grid connected asset
so we can draw power from the grid when it's
not needed and push it out to the consumers when
it is. And that was where the concept of the
United Energy Storage Project was born in 2018.
We signed an agreement with Interstore and we
carried the football together as co -partners,
so 50 -50 partners. We put hundreds of thousands
of dollars at risk to convince at that time the
province of Ontario that an energy storage of
this order of magnitude is needed. It's critical
for the future of our country. It's critical
to meet our net zero goals of our future generations.
And so it took us a long time. And in 2022, we
brought in Northland Power. large publicly traded
company in Canada, who brought in additional
firepower from a financial perspective to help
us and get us across the line with the province
of Ontario and the ISO that led to the contract.
And it was through the involvement of Northland
Power together with InterStore and Six Nations,
as well as ACON, our partner. ACON is a partner
of ours for a long time. We came together and
ultimately constructed this facility, which was
a $700 million energy storage project. 250 megawatts,
1 ,000 megawatt hours, so it's a four -hour cycle
time. And we're very proud. That project was
just commissioned last month, ahead of schedule
and under budget. So I think that speaks to the
power of what's possible with Indigenous partnerships
at the forefront of an idea. As I said earlier,
if we can get behind an idea and be part of the
concept, we can advocate and move mountains.
And that means moving mountains with government,
influencing public policy. But you go to the
markets to raise capital, you go to raise financing.
It gives a lot of peace of mind for large financial
institutions to see that the rights holder, i
.e. Six Nations in this case, is actually an
investor and partner. It goes a long ways to
de -risk the project and crowds in lots of opportunity,
like the Canada Infrastructure Bank, who are
also a key player in the whole transaction. You
know, I know we'll probably talk about it more,
but I will just leave you this snippet. I often
describe the United Energy Storage Project as
a classic example. It should be, in fact, an
MBA case study on what's possible when Indigenous
communities are truly included at the forefront
of an idea all the way through to the conclusion
of what's possible. Yeah, well, let's talk a
bit more about that then. And McCarthy Tatro,
we were pleased to act for CIB on that. on this
project. But can you tell us a little bit about
the size and some of the economics, maybe, and
how many partners you have there at the moment?
You've mentioned a few. How does the governance
work? Yeah, so it's a $700 million project. So
it's not like we had the ability to go out and
do this on our own. And we're cautious in the
market. We've been at this for 10 years. We have
built a pretty healthy balance sheet. We've got
almost $200 million of assets under administration
that we're able to build in 10 years with zero
capital injection from the nation. And so we've
been able to do this by being creative and innovative
and managing risk as best as possible. So we,
as I mentioned, we had to bring in, in 2022,
a partner who had the financial well -being or
capability to bring capital. into the equation.
And so we did run a process and Northland Power
was the successful process. We used an investment
banker to go out to the market and that was Scotiabank
at the time. And Northland emerged as the preferred
partner. In parallel to that, we had Akon. Akon,
as you may know, is one of Canada's largest construction
companies. It's a publicly traded construction
company. We just, out of interest, we've been
a partner with Akon since... for the last decade
in another area, in a construction company partnership
that we have. And so we know the executive team
very well at ACON, and they came in as the EPC
contractor. And as the EPC contractor, they also,
as part of their new strategy, want to invest
in the projects that they build. So they have
a small equity stake in the project. So they
invested capital. And you know what? That gives
a lot of comfort when your EPC also puts up capital.
Because, you know, they're motivated by on -time,
on -budget thinking as well. And so we have,
so we've got ourselves, we've got Northland Power,
we've got Acorn, we've got Interstore, small,
they're a small boutique firm, so they have a
small equity slice. And so those were really
the main component partners in the deal. Very
close to the commercial operation of the deal,
the Mississaugas of the credit came in for a
small equity stake as well, because they are
in proximity to the project. And so they were,
They are also an equity investor in the project.
So when I say this is a classic example of what's
possible from an MBA case study, if you look
back, if you look at the whole stack of participants,
from a federal government standpoint, we have
the Canada Infrastructure Bank who provided a
significant subordinate senior debt that made
the economics of the project work. If you think
back to 2018, all the way to 2022, During that
time, COVID, the price of lithium went up 400%.
Commodity pricing was all over the map. Foreign
exchange was all over the map. We were trying
to advance an agenda with a government at the
time that was concerned that, you know, there's
risks here. So the province of Ontario really
came to the plate with the ISO as an offtaker
and entered into a 20 -year contract for services
for this. If it wasn't for the province of Ontario,
we would not have a project. So there's a lot
of volatility. The province of Ontario stepped
up. The federal government stepped up to the
Canada Infrastructure Bank, provided that financing
mechanism to help share that risk. The NRCan
also provided a $50 million innovation grant
to the project, which also made it viable. You've
got to remember, this is something that's never
been done before in the country. It is in an
order of magnitude that many couldn't fathom,
a $700 million battery plant. So you've got the
federal government, the provincial government,
you've got the Canada's largest First Nation.
You've got public companies in Northland Power
and Akon, private companies in Interstore, and
you've got a host municipality in Haldimand Council
who are a willing host for the project. You know
what? It checks all the boxes of what's possible.
But you know what? In order to check all those
boxes, we needed to be part of the conversation
all the way back to 2018. It was our idea. And
we just found the right partners to help carry
the football with us. And that's what makes it
so great because it proves what's possible. You
hear all the noise right now about, Bill C -5
and Bill 5 in Ontario about accelerating infrastructure.
And I'm not saying that's a bad thing to accelerate
infrastructure. What I'm saying is it needs to
be done in a respectful way. So if you just pause
that discussion for a minute, look at Oneida
and look at what's possible on time, under budget.
And there's one common denominator, and that
is Indigenous leadership at the forefront of
that equation. That's how development should
happen and can happen in this country, not through
legislating. aggressive legislative policy that's
going to create conflict and ultimately disrupt
what's possible. Very much so. It's such a fantastic
story. If this works, you are operational now.
There's got to be other places in Canada or the
world that could use this technology and the
size of the storage facility. Are you thinking
beyond Six Nations? Well, I can tell you, Rob,
that with Oneida being the first, and at that
time there was no mechanism in Ontario. So it
was a bilateral negotiation with the province.
So it was a negotiated contract. As soon as we
signed that contract, the province of Ontario
initiated something called an expedited RFP.
And so the expedited RFP... resulted in a couple
more projects, one of which we partnered with,
the Heggersville Battery Project, which is close
to our community. And so that's 300 megawatts,
even bigger than Oneida. And then immediately
following the expedited RFP, there was something
that's called the LT1, Long Term One Procurement,
for more storage. And we secured three more contracts
in that contract. So we're actually building
1 ,100 megawatts of energy storage. So that's
1 .4 gigawatts. of energy storage assets here
in Ontario, which makes us Six Nations the largest
private investor in energy storage in Canada.
We just happen to be indigenous, right? And we
happen to be there because we were the innovators
and the disruptors that brought Oneida across
the starting line and the finishing line. And
we built a reputation in the marketplace that
we can get this done. And so we have a long list
of companies wanting to target and partner with
us. And so we have the opportunity to be selective,
which we're doing. But there is much more opportunity
in this market. In fact, our growth trajectory
still hinges on the energy markets through generation
and storage and others. But we are definitely
expanding into M &A activity and other channels
of growth, which are going to get us to where
we need to go from our next seven generations
of funding requirements for our community. Fantastic.
And just the timing of this project coming on
stream, right? There's a number of factors come
together, but you managed it under budget, faster
than the plan. And that speaks to more than just
luck. It speaks to all the effort, all the groundwork,
et cetera, that you put in with your partners
and those who enabled it. But it was that leadership
from you and your community that was able to
drive this through. And it needs to be a case
study. So that can be a separate conversation
about time to get some of these Canadian business
schools doing some case studies. I know Rotman
and he went to Athabasca and I went to Queen's,
you know, McGill, all these schools, universities.
And over here, you know, we need to get talking
to them and share some of this because that is
a classic case study, as you said. You know,
a lot of people talk about the Harvard case study
about Indigenous governance. And we need to get
some new case studies out there talking about
what's going on in Canada. Yeah. You know, but
if you think back to the mission of who we are,
you know, and I always share this story. When
you're growing up as a young person in many societies,
there's history books. In Indigenous cultures,
there isn't a lot of history books. A lot of
it is oral tradition, oral history passed down
from generation to generation. And when you're
a young person and you hear your grandparents
tell you that those people hurt me, you don't
forget that. It's an emotional issue for us,
right? And so when we go about our business,
we want to make sure that we do things responsibly
in a way that we can be proud of when our children
look at us to say, why did you do that? And so
we keep a pretty solid record to a website that
we maintain. where community members can go and
look at all the facts, all the analysis that
we've done. That's somewhat of a repository for
people to reflect upon why we did what we did
and what we evaluated when we made that decision.
I think that's important to help frame the rationale
and decision -making we went through. And then
the last point I'll make is the one thing that
I'm very, very proud of. In the last 10 years,
the Six Nations Development Corporation has generated
over $295 million of direct economic impact into
our community. And it's through the decisions
that we're making, the jobs that we're creating,
the economic spinoff, the investment back into
our community. You know, I think that will be
the lens in which we are evaluated. And we just
need to be responsible in how we navigate the
future. And I think we're doing that. And I mean,
I'm really proud to have the opportunity to play
the role I have. As you should be, Matt. There's
a lot there to be proud of. And congratulations
on the 10 years of. Development Corp at the forefront
of a lot of activity in Canada. And the energy
storage projects is just the latest. Yeah. So
thank you very much for taking the time. Talk
about a little bit about that. I really appreciate
it. No, go guys. Thank you. Great to have you,
have you with us today. Thank you to Matt Jameson
for sharing his insights with us. And thank you
for viewing and listening. Be sure to share,
subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite
podcast channel. Thanks for listening to Drum
Beats. Until next time.